Picrel is the CRPG Addict's definition of an RPG. For those who don't know, he is attempting to play every PC RPG chronologically and has a detailed blog of his journey. Thoughts?>Throughout the game, the character must become stronger, more resilient, and more capable of overcoming the game's challenges, including combat.>Such character development must be separate from inventory acquisition.>Such character development must not consist solely of improvements to maximum health.>Players must have some control over the rate or details of development.https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/
didn't ask, buy an ad, kill yourself
>>4011297fpbp
>>4011296i know it when i see it
>>4011306/thread
So, Gradius?
>>4011296>CRPG AddictThis dude is way to autistic to listen to about anything.
Good to know Devil May Cry is an RPG.
an RPG is a game where you decide your role(s) and refine it as you go. playing in a way that makes sense for your chosen role(s) must significantly increase your chance of success. explicit stats and algorithms are not technically necessary in pnp rpgs but all of the ones i know of have them in some capacity. allowing role-switching (such as swapping equipment or generous respec) diminishes or nullifies any rpg-ness contained within the choice if equipment or stats.
>>4011296I now see the problem with rpg fans trying to come up with a definition
>>4011296Traveller is not a rpg anymore, but Sims is.
>>4011296That's a very mechanical definition of an RPG and while I agree it's broad enough to basically cover most RPGs, it doesn't really capture the essence of an RPG. Also it makes mistakes like this: >>4011581I would say the primary point of an RPG is abstraction. Thief: The Dark Project is not an RPG, even though you play something akin to a very classic DnD Rogue, who can hide in shadows, lockpick and also move making no noise. But it's not an RPG, because these things aren't abstracted. They are not determined by a stat check. You do these things in a 3D environment.A proper RPG on the other hand, even one where you only play a Thief and have no access to any other character classes, would create a stat sheet for you and use that and your stats in certain abilities to determine, if you can pickpocket, sneak, move silently, etc.A real RPG does not technically need a very intricate development system. The example I have given would still be an RPG, if it automatically levels you up at predetermined points in time, once you finished certain levels. Most RPGs simply don't do that, because they cater to choicefags, who want to choose to choose one of two perks on a levelup.
>>4011296A shitty definition by all accounts. An RPG is at its core you making choices in the guise of someone else. Whenever you are able to express a specific personality through in game choices, you are looking at an RPG. You could build a whole game 100% on the acquisition of magical items to fuel your ability in game to overcome obstacles (because items can be used as a proxy for character stats), and the game would still be an RPG, provided your choices have narrative and personality consequences for the character.
>>4011971Detroid and Walking dead are now an RPGs.RPG requires both the narrative aspect of role-playing a character AND mechanical aspect of building and/or developing the character, their skills and abilities.
the funniest thing about these threads is someone mocking someone's definition and then giving an equally bad one, ad infinitum.>>4011306the only good answer.
>>4012416I don't know what Detroid is, but you are right in that Walking Dead is not a RolePlayingGame, because it is not a GAME. It's a kinetic novel.
>muh narrativeOriginal DnD was just about exploring dungeons and fighting monsters for loot>muh levelingOriginal DnD did not have leveling it was just added because players requested it.>muh gameplay vs muh roleplayDnD was created by Gary Gigax, a gameplay autist, and Dave Arneson, a theater kid, who couldn't agree if RPG should focus on game mechanics or on having more lax mechanics that let players create a narrative.This is why these arguments still exist, even the creators of the genre couldn't agree. At the end of the day it's simultaneously both and neither of those things, it just depends on what a particular creator or player want to focus on. The same apply to video game RPGs.
>>4011296Simple. Do numbers go up? If they do then it's an RPG. Can you look at the numbers? If you can't then it's not an RPG.
>>4012465Probably Detroit: Become Human, game about androids.
>>4011296behold, an RPG
I still hold by a definition I tried posting a few months ago.An RPG is defined by the developer intent that the gameplay be primarily centered around moderately informed, long term, impactful choices made by the player.The main pain point of this definition, like most definitions, would be the JRPG. Which is a genre that owes it's ancestry to VN developers trying to distance themselves from the popularity of Eroges to reach a more family friendly audience, and the gameplay of early Wizardry. Aside from the early iterations of the sub-genre, iterations have mostly focused on pure menu based strategy within an encounter or dungeon, rather than strategy and choices made throughout the whole game.What I mean by "primarily centered" is that every facet of gameplay holds some consequence of your choices. What stats you choose, skills to develop, party members to commit to, and items to use now or save until later.Basically, the choices you make (again, talking about gameplay, not necessarily story) need to make you feel like the world is reacting to how you play your role. A pack of undead monsters are light work for the Paladin, but he then needs some help when dealing with a wizard with a magical shield. Picking the paladin at all needs to feel impactfully different than picking a thief for the entire game, even if the enemies they fight, and the general story beats are the same.What stats or gear you chose to keep needs to be the primary determiner of how each combat encounter will go, and what options you have available. Those choices also need to be relatively difficult to impossible to undo (depending on how severe the choice is, and how well informed the choice was). Buying back a powerful weapon you sold often requires a lengthy backtrack, and paying far more than you received for it. Respeccing a character should come with heavy costs, limitations, or detriments.
>>4013213>Simple. Do numbers go up? If they do then it's an RPG. Can you look at the numbers?Coin clipping is now an RPG.
>>4013392The stock market is the purest RPG you can play but people aren't ready for that discussion.
>>4013304Any turn-based strategy game is also based around>moderately informed, long term, impactful choices made by the player.but nobody would call Panzer General an RPG.
>>4011296Behold! Plato's Man!
>>4011904>I would say the primary point of an RPG is abstraction. Thief: The Dark Project is not an RPG, even though you play something akin to a very classic DnD Rogue, who can hide in shadows, lockpick and also move making no noise. But it's not an RPG, because these things aren't abstracted. They are not determined by a stat check. You do these things in a 3D environment.>A proper RPG on the other hand, even one where you only play a Thief and have no access to any other character classes, would create a stat sheet for you and use that and your stats in certain abilities to determine, if you can pickpocket, sneak, move silently, etc.I summarize this as "tactical wargame mechanics."My definition is: "tactical wargame mechanics" + "character-focused adventures in a simulated reality">>4011296CRPG Addict used to have a much more elaborate definition, which was cumbersome and hard to apply but at least it wasn't completely and obviously wrong like this one. The main and obvious issue with his definition is that it's just obviously not what most RPGs are about. Character development is almost never "the driving mechanic of gameplay"This trivial to prove, also by just looking at the way virtually any RPG actually plays. Consider a 45 minute play session where you do not gain any levels or obtain any inventory upgrades. What the hell were you doing during that time, if not playing an RPG?>Such character development must be separate from inventory acquisition.>Such character development must not consist solely of improvements to maximum health.>Players must have some control over the rate or details of development.These are all surface qualifications to make up for the failure to identify the fundamental elements of an RPG, so as to exclude other genres of game that have character development. My definition (and this guy's >>4011904) exclude other genres naturally, at a deeper level.
>>4011306The normalfag answer with tranny logic.>>4011296This is retarded. I gave my answer but people like not actually having answer.
>>4013304>The main pain point of this definition, like most definitions, would be the JRPG.Not a pain point of this one: >>4013433- JRPGs have the wargame mechanics.- JRPGs have the characters going on adventures in a simulated reality.You don't need anything more convoluted. That definition includes the overwhelming majority of video games commonly called RPGs and excludes the overwhelming majority of games in other genres.
A definition that includes disco elysium and pokemon, but not football manager and sims is nearly impossible.
>>4013467That’s because DE is a point and click adventure game.
>>4013467There is no meaningful difference between Skyrim and every dogshit perktree openworld game.
>>4013591>perktree openworld game.What would these be?
>>4013396>but nobody would call Panzer General an RPG.Ahem:
>>4013467Why isn't Sims a RTWP CRPG?
>>4013467>football manager isn't an RPG because I don't like the subject matter
>>4013467How about a definition that includes football manager, but discludes Disco. CYOAs really, really don't belong in the same category. I don't care how much pretense they add with variables, or superficial D&D trappings.
>>4013657>CYOAs really, really don't belong in the same category.I agree for pure CYOAs (like the Telltale games) but I feel Disco Elysium is more difficult to rule out. If it were a gamebook it wouldn't be a Choose Your Own Adventure book, it would be more like a book in the Fighting Fantasy series, or a solitaire RPG adventure.
>>4013657>>4013670What about Fabled Lands? Is that, somehow, not an RPG due to also being a CYOA in format?
>>4013670Disco Elysium is a 90s style point-and-click adventure game
The original X-Com is absolutely not an RPG
Who fucking cares?People have been calling games that have barely anything to do with it "roguelikes" and the genre is doing fine.People have been calling walking sims with barely any interactivity "adventure games" and the genre is doing fine.People have been calling all sorts of things by the wrong terms in film, music, cuisine, and everything else, and still those who care will identify the true representatives of a genre at just a glance, even if they can't even agree with each other on a formal definition. And that's all that matters.
>>4013739I haven't read any Fabled Lands books but from reading the description I'd probably call them RPGs too, just like Fighting Fantasy. But I'm this anon >>4013670 so as long as it's not all CYOA with no RPG elements, I'm good
>>4013467This one does pretty well: >>4013433Excludes Football manager and The Sims very cleanly:>Football managerNot playing as a guy on the field.>The simsNo meaningful adventuring.>PokemonHas standard turn-based RPG combat mechanics derived from wargames.The main character goes on adventures with his pokemon.The collecting/training layer is not really an RPG-like gimmick, but the remaining mechanics all make it feel like an RPG.>Disco elysiumDE is essentially interactive fiction built with an RPG videogame engine. The DE stat system is almost a vestigial element inherited from RPGs, used as more of a narrative device than a real RPG-like gameplay mechanic.Is DE an RPG? Maybe. Barely. A definition of RPG that cleanly classifies DE as an RPG is probably a bad definition.>>4013657>How about a definition that includes football manager,Football managers aren't RPGs. But if you took a football manager type game and then played it as a character on the field, following his individual career without emphasis on action mechanics during matches, it would be a "sports RPG". I'm pretty sure games like that exist (though I cannot recall their names at the moment)
>>4013753Zero points for making the claim.You only get credit if you can explain why.
>>4011296>Throughout the game, the character must become stronger, more resilient, and more capable of overcoming the game's challenges, including combat.does that mean Oblivion isnt an RPG because you get weaker as the game progresses and you level up?
>>4013841In Oblivion your character becomes stronger, more resilient, and more capable
>>4013847>In Oblivion your character becomes strongercan you really be called stronger if you would have had an easier time killing enemies if you never leveled at all? If earning $1 means everyone on earth earns $100 are you not poorer as a result?
>>4013875Yes. In Oblivion your character does become stronger, more resilient, and more capable
>>4013888>Yes. In Oblivion your character does become stronger, more resilient, and more capable
>>4011296Lilura's definition is better.
>>4018249
>>4018249>RPG is a game where you play a role>but it has more words, so it's more correct this time.I might be able to get behind this if it tried to specify what ways the player is intended to play that role.Like if you were expected to make meaningful choices based on the character you're trying to play (as well as given sufficient opportunity to make such choices) and need to actually stick with them, and the advantages or disadvantages of them.Specifically adding in "combat units" as different from "characters" makes it seem like it's meant to include war games, and strategy games as well.And actually now that I type this out. The difference between those two genres and RPGs might be the key. You play Strategy games because the primary focus is on the strategy, and the gameplay facilitates that. The same could be said for RPGs. The only question is what mechanics exist specifically to facilitate roleplaying. Everyone seems to have a different definition.
>>4011296Any functional definition of an RPG should exclude TES especially Skyrim.
>>4018406it also should exclude games that focus mainly on combat.
>>4018416Nah. "Muh Roleplaying" is a cope. This is how get retarded definitions like >>4018249>RPG is a game where you play a role
>>4011971>>4012416RPGs are games that take from D&D you dumb fucking faggots.D&D invented the RPG. They called it role playing to distinguish it fun the tabletop war games that came before, where you're an entire country instead of just 1 guy.What do people take from D&D? Exp leveling, character stats like speed and defense, customizable spell lists, etc...>>4013304False. JRPG means the rpgs that take after dragon quest.
>>4018362starcraft is not a fucking rpg.
>>4018420no, it's more about exploration and character progression. the best rpgs (ps:t, fallout, arcanum etc.) are not mainly about combat.
>>4018442>the best rpgs (ps:t, fallout, arcanum etc.) are not mainly about combat.No, they are about stats. Want an RPG without combat? Sure. Want an RPG with just combat? Sure.>it's more about explorationFinding things to fight.>and character progression.Getting better at fighting.
>>4018406>Any functional definition of an RPG should exclude TES especially Skyrim.Agenda revealed
>>4018391>And actually now that I type this out. The difference between those two genres and RPGs might be the key. You play Strategy games because the primary focus is on the strategy[...]. The same could be said for RPGs. The only question is what mechanics exist specifically to facilitate roleplaying.Congratulations, you're slowly working your way toward the definition I have been using for years now (>>4013433). But before you get into definitions of "facilitate roleplaying" it helps to be more specific about "strategy." Wargames are typically implemented at these scales:- Tactical, Skirmish (less than 50 men, turns in minutes)- Operational, Grand Tactical (50-250 men, turns in hours)- Strategic (250-10,000, turns are days or weeks)- Grand Strategic (running an entire war from the very top)RPGs explicitly target the tactical/skirmish level of abstraction for the core gameplay. An RPG is "strategic" primarily across a character's entire career and may be "operational" when it comes to abstracting travel over long distances and such. But the bulk of the gameplay is tactical-- the hour to hour and minute to minute execution of individual character actions.>makes it seem like it's meant to include war games, and strategy games as well.I think her/his/its definition is pretty close, it just fails to explicitly delineate. People often fail to articulate assumptions (fish assuming water, etc). And I suspect Lilura's assumes a centrality of combat to the gameplay.My version of the defition, "assuming the role" is specifically predicated on the character being like an individual combat unit from a wargame. That is, you take the mechanics of a wargame, and then assume the role of a unit on the field. Then you go on independent adventures instead of fighting wars (mostly, not that you can't fight in wars in an RPG but it's not the focus). Additional "rpg" mechanics flow from this premise.
>>4018442>the best rpgs (ps:t, fallout, arcanum etc.) are not mainly about combat.First, ps:t is a bad example, it's not representative of the core of what makes a good RPG. It's an outlier.More importantly, is that all of those games (even ps:t) are built on engines designed for combat. If you made a game like ps:t that didn't have any combat, wasn't made with the infinity engine, and didn't tell anyone it was a D&D setting, it probably wouldn't even register as an RPG. Just interactive fiction.>>4018446>Want an RPG without combat? Sure.Making an RPG without combat is possible, but most of the time when people try to do that, the result is a much better fit for some other genre.>No, they are about stats.RPG mechanics are specifically tactical wargame mechanics adapted to more general simulations. Every game has stats. RPGs exist in a specific range of abstraction and a specific way of thinking about stats and using them in the gameplay. You could spill paragraphs trying to delineate the exact levels of abstraction and exact ways players need to reason about the stats in order to be considered an RPG-- or you could say "like tactical wargames" and be right 99.9% of the time.>>4018472Skyrim is definitely on the "simulation" side of RPGs, and ARPGs are fundamentally hybrids, but it still has enough RPG-like traits for an argument to be made.
>>4018490>Skyrim is definitely on the "simulation" side of RPGs, and ARPGs are fundamentally hybrids, but it still has enough RPG-like traits for an argument to be made.What fucking argument
RPG players are the only group of gamers that seem to be confused about what genres are. I blame “gender ideology”.
Rpg is any game where player input is severely limited in favor of character input.Simple as that.In Pokemon your ability to do stuff is based on stats, in sports game your ability to do stuff is based on the player stats, everything else is just a small modifier.You can run from one point to another easily with even dogshit stats as long as you can mash and have a sliver of skill.
The Sims is a CRPG.>Characters develop skills and reach achievements and can purchase perks and feats that allow for more ability to tackle problems including combat>Is distinct and separate from mere item acquisition >Improvements exist beyond just maximum health>Players can choose when and how to train the plethora of skills and how intensely they pursue said skillsAn RPG at it's core should be assuming a role within a world (Whether it's one you create or one you pick) where your choices shape the narrative, and gameplay (Otherwise it's an adventure game if those features are immutable)There's further distinctions to make, dungeon crawler, CRPG, JRPG, ARPG, SRPG, where there's more emphasis and depth put on different parts of what an RPG is. JRPG you're usually along for the ride in the narrative, even if mechanically it fits the bill.
>>4018472Yes and?>>4018490>Skyrim is definitely on the "simulation" side of RPGs, and ARPGs are fundamentally hybrids, but it still has enough RPG-like traits for an argument to be made.No. Also, not the point. A liger doesn't prove that a lion can have stripes. This is common sense yet I need to point that out since it allows me to point out the spirit of the definition and how Skyrim fails in that too. RPGs come from war games thus war sims. While scale is a big factor to change like >>4018475 said, the main thing that distinguishes RPGs from a war game is the concept of a "quest". Since the advent of RPGs, the entire setting of D&D is used to justify the occupation of "Adventurer". In essence, RPGs are Quest sims. To many people, Skyrim is the epitome of RPGs but that is because they mistaken "Life sim" faggotry for "Quest sim" mechanics. In fact, the inconvenient aspect of "Life sim" elements are ignored making it superficial.>>4018618>The Sims is a CRPG.The Sims goes on forever so it is as best an RPG system with no campaign. Like a rule book without a DM.
>>4018730>Skyrim doesn't have quests or adventurersIt's time to log off, buddy.
>>4018730Skyrim has a main quest even if it sucks, and it has multiple side quests.It has twoish main quests, the Civil War and Alduin.
>>4018738>>40187471) I didn't say that.2) I was talking about people using Skyrim as the epitome of RPGs because of the useless Life-sim bullshit when it has nothing to do with the quests. Hunger isn't something that you need to manage. Different food items don't really matter.3) A definition of an RPG by necessity has to exclude Skyrim because of the action game elements.
You autists should just admit that words exist to convey meanings, not the other way around.A word is good if, when you say it, people know what you mean. Not if it has a detailed dictionary entry that convers all edge cases.
>>4018753>useless Life-sim bullshit when it has nothing to do with the quests. Hunger isn't something that you need to manage.This isn't in Skyrim and is added by a mod, fyi.>3) A definition of an RPG by necessity has to exclude Skyrim because of the action game elements.One, that's completely arbitrary. It's fine if you dislike the game, but you're becoming increasingly silly as you go on.Two, a reasonable person would consider the set of "RPGs" to contain multiple distinct sub-sets of various styles of RPGs, including "action RPGs", of which Skyrim is a member. Thus, Skyrim is an RPG. Quad erat demonstrandum.
>>4018781>This isn't in Skyrim and is added by a mod, fyi.That is my point. The cooking mechanic is just there. If hunger was something that you need to manage like need bringing rations before going into a dungeon, then it is actually a meaningful mechanic. People always talk about Skyrim's immersion but it is just one sided Life sim bullshit. In fact, people tend to complain about needing to engage with the mechanics of the game to be "immersion breaking".>>>/wsg/6193161>acknowledging that there is a difficulty setting is immersion breaking>One, that's completely arbitrary. It's fine if you dislike the game, but you're becoming increasingly silly as you go on.Again, people call Skyrim an ARPG. ARPG is referred to as a hybrid genre which implies that there is a pure RPG genre.>Two, a reasonable person would consider the set of "RPGs" to contain multiple distinct sub-sets of various styles of RPGs, including "action RPGs", of which Skyrim is a member. Thus, Skyrim is an RPG. Quad erat demonstrandum.Subgenre refers to a subset not a mix. It isn't a subgenre if the definition is broader than main genre.
>>4018768The return of tranny logic.
>>4018446>>it's more about exploration>Finding things to fight.>>and character progression.>Getting better at fighting.Good RPGs let you do talking, stealthing or using magic in a creative way instead of fighting. You can get better at them, too.
>>4011296Might as well be some Poojeet's definition. Didn't even read.If you want to know the definition, read RPG Codex. There's a reason why /vrpg/ worships the Codex as Gods. Don't register though, don't want more browns mutts and zoomers.
>>4018768How am I going to argue about whether the game I don't like isn't a REAL RPG then?
>>4018873>Good RPGs let youOK, Let's have this entirely different conversation.
>>4018901truuuuuuuu
>>4018845>>4018901>>4018930>Look ma, I'm shitposting
>>4018942>SAAAAAAAR do not redeem my safe space
>>4018730>>Any functional definition of an RPG should exclude TES especially Skyrim.>Agenda revealed>Yes and?It explains your obsession, and why you keep failing.
What makes an RPG and RPG is if people think it is an RPG
>>4018493>what fucking argument Why so hostile?The arguments are1. The characters are still heavily defined by their traits. The game is mostly not about testing your reflexes and hand-eye coordination, so it's not an 'action game'. It's about making decisions on behalf of a unique character, defined by by their stats, which you decide on at each level-up.2. The root of the gameplay is combat and adventuring in the world. You can technically spend hours doing nothing but picking berries, catching butterflies and making and selling potions, but ultimately all the real value is oriented around combat and adventuring (health potions to recover damage, poisons to cause damage, weapons and armor to wear, and so on).These traits make it fair to consider Skyrim at least half RPG. >>4018618Sims is not an RPG because there's no adventuring. No real danger or combat. It's a Life Sim, different genre.
>>4019019You're arguing about Skyrim being a RPG
>>4019032Yeah and it's a clear, coherent, sensible argument.
>>4018730>t still has enough RPG-like traits for an argument to be made.>No. Also, not the point.Yes, and it is my point that I chose to make. Your point (whining about what some random subset of people get wrong about skyrim) isn't that interesting.>While scale is a big factor to change like >>4018475 (You) said, the main thing that distinguishes RPGs from a war game is the concept of a "quest".I wouldn't say that. The distinction is playing as the unit on the field and going on adventures. In a wargame, you command the troops in battle. In an RPG, you play as the soldier and fight dragons to get rich and famous (or save the world, or whatever). It can be a quest, but doesn't have to be.>To many people, Skyrim is the epitome of RPGs but that is because they mistaken "Life sim" faggotry for "Quest sim" mechanics. It doesn't matter that they are wrong about why Skyrim is an RPG. That's the point of having a fully-fleshed out, robust definition, so that you can take weird hybrid edge case games and understand how to classify them effectively.>>4018753>3) A definition of an RPG by necessity has to exclude Skyrim because of the action game elements.Just completely wrong. This is not how you classify videogames by genre. You have to look at the whole game, assess all its traits and the experience of playing it. Skyrim has action combat mechanics, but be real-- it's not a fucking action game. You can just run up to enemies and whale on them with your axe, and if you take damage you can pause the game and eat a 9 course meal to refill your hitpoints. Combat is not about tests of reflexes, hand-eye coordination or manual dexterity. It's still decision-oriented gameplay where the main point is deciding how to approach the combat (do you sneak up and backstab with your poisoned dagger, do you shoot arrows from afar, do you run in and issue a beatdown etc). Even lockpicking is more about your character's skill than dexterity.
>>4019008Basically, but saying that is just an excuse to avoid the interesting question: why. Why do "people" think any given game is an RPG? And at what point can they be wrong. Obviously, if someone thinks a flower pot is an RPG, good for them, but they are delusional and can be identified as such.
>>4019043Let me save some time: Skyrim is a role-playing gameYou know guys, sometimes I think we suffer from a lack of fresh, interesting topics
>>4019055>Skyrim is a role-playing gameThis is the jeetspeak equivalent of>Transwomen. [clap] Are. [clap] Women. [clap x2]
>>4019055You're right. Skyrim is an RPG. If you don't care to understand why, feel free to leave.>You know guys, sometimes I think we suffer from a lack of fresh, interesting topicsGenre classification is an interesting topic, it's especially interesting with RPGs because the definition is complex and relatively new as words go. What's not interesting are people like you who aren't interested yet insist on yapping anyway. You killed this board with dull inanity.
>>4019048>Just completely wrong. This is not how you classify videogames by genre. You have to look at the whole gameYou already missed the point. We are identifying the traits that makes something an RPG. Listing a bunch of traits commonly associated with an RPG and selectively saying how they make one game an RPG but not the other or saying the lack of it doesn't.Basically,>>4018362Behold, an RPG!>That's the point of having a fully-fleshed out, robust definition, so that you can take weird hybrid edge case games and understand how to classify them effectively.What the Hell do you think hybrid means? Skyrim isn't an "edge case".>>4018984>>4019008>>4019055A few years ago the official policy is that a woman is anybody who identifies as a woman.
>>4018819>Again, people call Skyrim an ARPG. ARPG is referred to as a hybrid genre which implies that there is a pure RPG genre.>Subgenre refers to a subset not a mix. It isn't a subgenre if the definition is broader than main genre.You're making the elementary mistake that all sets are mutually exclusive, and that there is not overlap or shared members between multiple sets.
>>4019064All right, have a good weekend
>>4019089OK, can you define this? Or do you not get how Venn diagrams work?
>>4011296>all characters start at max level>no equipment evenThis is not an RPG, apparently.
>>4019068>What the Hell do you think hybrid means?Hybrid means a combination of two or more genres.An Action RPG is a hybrid between an RPG and a Action Game.>Skyrim isn't an "edge case".Yes, it is. Because it's an Action RPG with heavy simulation elements.RPGs do not include action mechanics inherently. So a game that blends them is a hybrid.RPGs do include simulation elements inherently, but typically limits them to a certain level of abstraction. So as an RPG design leans more heavily on the simulation elements it becomes more like a simulation genre and less RPG genre.So Skyrim is a hybrid edge case. It's on the RPG side of simulation for reasons outlined (and not refuted) in 4019019, and its Action gameplay is blended in with the RPG and simulation elements rather than dominating the experience, making it a mix of action and RPG.
>>4019095>do you not get how Venn diagrams work?Do you?
>>4019108>Hybrid means a combination of two or more genres.Yes, a combination as in a mix of two different things. You don't call an offspring of two humans a hybrid.>>4019111You people are genuinely retarded.
>>4019095>OK, can you define this?Yes, the set of RPGs, which contains the member Skyrim. You seem very confused. This is quite simple.
>>4019121>Yes, a combination as in a mix of two different things.Action mechanics explicitly aren't RPG mechanics. They are different. When you replace RPG combat with action combat, the result is either an Action RPG or some sort of Action-Adventure. To figure out which you have to look at the details of the specific game.>You people are genuinely retarded.No, you are. I have explained it clearly. The other anon tried to help with a venn diagram, maybe it's a little off, either way you seem to have a very weird blockage or damage somewhere in your brain that is preventing you from understanding some very simple concepts.>You don't call an offspring of two humans a hybrid.You're getting far too hung up on biological analogies. They can be useful, but there are critical differences. The traits separating humans from other animal species haven't changed for hundred thousand years. The mechanisms of sexual reproduction haven't changed. Meanwhile, RPGs have existed for about 50, are evolving continuously, and the exact defining traits have still never been formally identified or agreed-upon. Games don't spawn from from sexual reproduction of a male and female game, they are designed and created by people with ideas, mix and match as many ideas as they can manage into a final game.
>>4018362Are you retarded?
>>4019146>Action mechanics explicitly aren't RPG mechanics.>>4019144>Yes, the set of RPGs, which contains the member Skyrim.Then you can define an RPG mechanic, right? RPGs don't have exclusive domain of the concept of "playing a role".
because some anons mentioned wargames. rpgs don't have much in common with wargames anymore. they have evolved.
>>4019171>Then you can define an RPG mechanic, right?Yes. RPG mechanics are wargame mechanics, used to simulate independent small-party adventures. Wargames are traditionally turn-based. Although some variants exist where you may have physical catapults trying to knock over miniatures, those are unsual. The standard wargame is a turn-based affair, whether it's grand strategy or tactical skirmishing. Action games, on the other hand, are designed from the ground up to challenge a player's physical abilities, their reflexes, their manual dexterity, their hand-eye coordination. There are many distinct genres of action games as well as the umbrella category.Action gameplay is NOT native to RPG gameplay. Adding action mechanics to an RPG is thus creating a hybrid of the two genres: Action Game and RPG. The more action-focused the game becomes, the less of an RPG it is. Dark Souls, for example, largely does not play like an RPG at all, it's primarily about timing and reflexes. This is unlike Skyrim, which is more about directing your character based on their traits and abilities, even though it uses an action combat system.>>4019171>RPGs don't have exclusive domain of the concept of "playing a role".Yeah no shit. You seem to be hallucinating pretty badly if you imagined I ever said anything like that.
>>4019108>Skyrim isn't an "edge case".>Yes, it is. Because it's an Action RPG with heavy simulation elements.The industry keeps trying to make Skyrim. RPGs as a whole remains niche. Skyrim is just a casual ARPG for normalfags.
>>4019178>Yes. RPG mechanics are wargame mechanics, used to simulate independent small-party adventures. Wargames are traditionally turn-based. Although some variants exist where you may have physical catapults trying to knock over miniatures, those are unsual. The standard wargame is a turn-based affair, whether it's grand strategy or tactical skirmishing. Action games, on the other hand, are designed from the ground up to challenge a player's physical abilities, their reflexes, their manual dexterity, their hand-eye coordination. There are many distinct genres of action games as well as the umbrella category.Wow! You typed a lot of fucking nothing. You can't even meaningfully distinguish an RPG from a war game.
>>4019174>rpgs don't have much in common with wargames anymore. That's not true.The fundamental way that stats are used in an RPG is derived from wargames, and that is still one of the key defining traits of an RPG.It's also important to consider the other genre possibilities. Many people think that RPG is about "narrative control" but there's already a genre for that which is: "interactive fiction." If the defining feature of your game is narrative agency in a storytelling context, that's interactive fiction not an RPG. If the story is more like a puzzle, it's an Adventure game. It's only an RPG if the wargame mechanics are there (stats, dice rolls, risk and danger etc.).Conversely, there is no alternate, more suitable genre term for games that fit the description "characters go on adventure simulated with wargame-like mechanics." The only option is RPG.
>>4019185>You can't even meaningfully distinguish an RPG from a war game.Yes, I can, and already did, multiple times ITT including the quote you posted. Here:>wargame mechanics used to simulate independent small-party adventures>used to simulate independent small-party adventures>used to simulate independent small-party adventuresThat distinguishes it from a wargame. And if you want to get super-fussy with some kind of semen-drooling faggot response, I'll elaborate on what is obvious to anyone not retarded:Wargames are not played from the perspective of the individual units. In a wargame, the player takes the role of the commander, the general, the king. They are responsible for tactical, operational and strategic decisions of an army and play against the commanders of rival armies. RPGs are made at the tactical level (eliminating all higher level wargames), and they feature characters using the same kind of stat-driven, dice-rolling mechanics used in tactical wargame combat, to simulate adventures in dungeons with traps and hazards and monsters. Wargames do not normally do this kind of thing. They can, and you can have very RPG-like scenarios in wargames. As I recall, even the original Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, had little missions where you controlled a fixed number of units on a dungeon-like map. You can also have RPGs where a character grows into a warlord and the game includes more explicit wargame features, with strategy and operational mechanics and so on. But those are rare.I should really not need to explain this difference in such painfully tedious detail. It should have been obvious already.
>>4019181Right, I only meant "edge case" in terms of its classification as an RPG. Not in terms of its notability or influence. And to the extent that other games are actually copying Skyrim, it seems more about the "open world sandbox" than anything else. Which you also might say is influenced by games like Grand Theft Auto. And honestly, if we're talking about "modern normalfag games" in 2026 it's basically Fortnite, Roblox, and GTA V.
>we still don't know what RPG isdefinitionbros... maybe we just need more time to think..
>>4019259I know an RPG when I see one.
>>4019260the dark magics of the exiled intuitionbros... NO! i must resist and remain true
>>4019264It’s the only way to slice the Gordian knot.
>>4019259>>4019260Not mutually exclusive. One can trust intuition and also reflect on it.
>>4019193>used to simulate independent small-party adventures>small is well definedAlso, we have way pass evolved from war games.>>4019259>>4019260/v/ and /vrpg/ haven't passed the "What is a woman?" test.
>>4019678>the "What is a woman?" testAn adult human female>but anon-san, what is a female?The sex possessing large immobile gametes, as opposed to small mobile gametes>but senpai-kun, what is an RPG?A roleplaying game.>oh yeah? name ONE. Name ONE fucking roleplaying gameSkyrim, bitch.
>>4019193no, you just like wargames. besides tactical rpgs, rpgs in general have not much in common with wargames any more. not a useful definition.
>>4019975>>but senpai-kun, what is an RPG?>A roleplaying game.>What is a woman?>Anyone who indentify as a woman.Recursive definition. Tranny logic.
Trying to rigorously define an RPG mechanically is retarded and doesn't represent anything usefulUltimately RPG is a heritage genre, it's defined by what games they were inspired by and not so much how the play mechanicallyRPGs all derived from D&D
>>4020107All game genres are mechanically defined. Going off heritage is a cheat. The problem is that games evolve fast enough that it's easy to evolve into an entirely different genre. The term would become useless without some mechanical or at least principled foundations.
>>4020003>greentexts a post that succinctly defined a woman based on objective biological reality as “whoever identifies as one :)”You’re fucking stupid. No wonder you can’t figure out what an RPG is.
>>4020141>Still can't define an RPG>acting all gay about analogiesRight when it isn't politically radioactive to define reality. Look at these threads. It is always full of faggots who think having no definition is good. It is spiritually tranny.
>>4019259We don't have a good definition of an Action game or a Strategy game either. Maybe trying to classify games into genres is not a good idea.
definitionbros... are we retarded? i don't want to believe that either but..
non RPG: a game in which you, the player. get better at playing the gameRPG: a game in which the character(s) you control get better at playing the gamethese are two ends of a spectrum which encompasses ARPGs and action games with RPG elements there are very few games which are "perfect" RPGs or non-RPGs. for example Mario can get better at playing Super Mario World by acquiring a mushroom or extra lives and even in the most stat-heavy, RNG focused RPGs the player can get better at playing the game by learning about the system
>>4019991>no, you just like wargames.Stupid reply and invalid counter-argument, tastes are irrelevant. Understanding multiple genres is important if you are interested in classifying games. In the case of RPGs, it's the easiest way to describe the nature of their core mechanics. RPGs are not wargames, they are distinct in critical ways. But they use the same foundational mechanics.>besides tactical rpgs, rpgs in general have not much in common with wargames any more. Irrelevant. What I call "wargame mechanics" remain a critical element of an RPG, whether your vague feelings-based assessment recognizes them or not. And you have yet to even produce a single example illustrating your point, much less a pattern of examples that would actually support it.>>4019678>>used to simulate independent small-party adventures>small is well definedYes, small is well-defined, you blithering moron. It usually means less than 10, often less than 6, but can easily support up to 10-20ish and in rare cases the 30-100 range (eg a raid in an old-school MMORPG). And those large-scale MMORPGs used mechanics built primarily to facilitate small-party adventures (Everquest had 6 member party, World of Warcraft had a 5 member party).This definition "small party" is sufficiently accurate and everybody knows what it means (except you when you're pretending to be retarded).
>>4020299>non RPG: a game in which you, the player. get better at playing the game>RPG: a game in which the character(s) you control get better at playing the gameNo, because the characters don't actually have to get better.If you hack a videogame so that the player stops accumulating XP and they stop leveling up, does the game suddenly stop being an RPG? If you crawl an entire dungeon, defeating every enemy within via turn-based combat (making target choices and ability choices and rolling dice on the outcomes), and rescue the imprisoned princess who rewards you with a kiss and honorary title, but you don't gain a levels or earn any weapons or equipment that makes the characters objectively more powerful, were you somehow NOT playing an RPG?
>>4020330Can small-party mean one character?
>>4020343Yes
>>4020386Back to the drawing board
>>4020395Kill yourself. The original comment was sufficient to distinguish from wargames, which is all that matters in context.
>>4020410Whoa nelly!
>>4019259>>we still don't know what RPG isSpeak for yourself, brown filth. And I suppose you can speak for the /vrpg/ posters ITT too, since they too are brown filth. But you're not speaking for the Elites who sometimes visit /vrpg/ (me).>>4019975>>the "What is a woman?" test>An adult human femaleKEK, I knew it, it's the same poojeet do-it-for-free shill as always.>The sex possessing large immobile gametes, as opposed to small mobile gametesHe tried to steal my definition from the last time I raped him, but he of course completely jeeted it up. Based on this jeetranny's definition, "humanfolx babies" are "assigned sex at birth" because they don't have eggs or sperm yet.The correct definition (which the jeet got triggered by when I destroyed his) is:>"The female sex is genetically and anatomically organized to produce large, immobile gametes, while the male sex is organized to produce small, mobile gametes."REKT.And that is why the jeet can't define a role-playing game. As the only Codex poster ITT, I am the only one who not only knows what a woman is - and to us Codexers, a 11 year old can be a fine woman too btw - but also the only one who knows what a roleplaying game is.>CTRL+F choice>16 mentions>just TL;DR cuck slopThe RPGness of an RPG is a determined strictly by how much the CONSEQUENCES of the CHOICES that the player makes for the player's representation are determined by the previous CHOICES that affected said player's representation.Jeetroons think that Skyrim is an RPG because it has a tiny amount of RPG elements, yet every FIFA or NHL game has more RPG elements than Skyrim. Skyrim is just an action game with minor RPG elements, just like 90% of FPS games made since 2010. Adventure games with QTE's are just as much action games as Skyrim is a roleplaying game.
>>4020641>humanfolx babies" are "assigned sex at birth" because they don't have eggsStopped reading here. Brown zoomer doesn’t understand basic biology. Quelle surprise.
>>4020656>Stopped reading hereCoping & projecting shitskin shitting himself and looking for an out. I said>Based on this jeetroon's definition [=based on your]Unlike you, I know biology>>4020641>The correct definition (which the jeet got triggered by when I destroyed his) is:>>"The female sex is genetically and anatomically organized to produce large, immobile gametes, while the male sex is organized to produce small, mobile gametes.">REKT.YOU LOST, JEETRANNY
>>4020663You're too stupid to even understand why you're wrong. Girls are born with a lifetime supply of eggs and never grow any more, which is why it's moronic to misconstrue my post as saying "[females are] assigned sex at birth because they don't have eggs yet" and then attempt to offer the correction of "[females are] genetically and anatomically organized to produce [eggs]"You're also a pathetic LARPer who doesn't even play RPGs. You got caught not knowing that Vault City is to the east in Fallout 2, not to the west, which is incredibly elementary if you've ever played the game and seen the world map. Yes, everyone knows exactly who you are the second you begin posting because you are the shittiest gimmick poster on this board due to your ~80 IQ, and just repeat the same handful of catchphrases in every post, while utterly embarrassing yourself in every conceivable fashion.Looks like you're FELTED, bitch.
>>4020678>Girls are bornJeetroon once again outs himself. The jeetroon thinks his cope debunks my flawless definition. My definition works even in the womb. The jeet is now bringing up birth. The jeet cannot understand>possessing somethingvs>being organized to produce and the organization starts at *conception*.Furthermore, the jeetranny thinks that implanting eggs into his body will makes him a woman. My actual biologically correct definition prevents all* surgery from turning him & his fellow troons into women. You were born with a body that had already been organized to produce impotent Inidian micropenis semen. You were an Indian male before you came through your mother's disgusting brown anus like pus'.*The only exception is something like transporting a brain from a male body into a fully functional woman body, like the NTR girl from Heavenly Delusion, but that's something that will never be scientifically possible.
>>4020686>The jeet is now bringing up birthStopped reading here. You can't even remember what you just posted, much less counterfactual hypotheticals like "how would you feel, were you to have not eaten breakfast this morning">>4020641>"humanfolx babies" are "assigned sex at birth"
>>4020678>everyone knowsThe "everyone" is just living in your jeetroon head & I am on top of them as the evil White gigachad nemesis who destroys you in every thread you appear, shitskin.>You got caught not knowing that Vault City is to the east in Fallout 2,Hilariously desperate cope from a shitskin. It is completely natural for White men to say Vault City is to the west because it is to the west on the map of every White man.>>4020688>Stopped reading here.LMAO AGAIN THE JEET IS RUNNING AWAY>You can't evenYou are a subhuman jeet nigger whore who cannot even understand what I said.>>"humanfolx babies" are "assigned sex at birth"Is from>>4020641>He tried to steal my definition from the last time I raped him, but he of course completely jeeted it up. Based on this jeetranny's definition, "humanfolx babies" are "assigned sex at birth" because they don't have eggs or sperm yet.BASEDONTHE JEETRANNY'SDEFINITION YOU SUBHUMAN JEETTRANNYTHAT IS WHAT YOUR "DEFINITION" ENABLESMINE DOESN'T
Also, you basically committed suicide by outing yourself openly as the Bethesda shilling do it for free jeetroon jamboy.Literal suicide that invalidates anything you can ever say about anything RPG related.>Skyrim is an RPG saar!!! it is! because I say so saar!!!You project 80 IQ onto me yet you're not even room temperature (Celsius) IQ.
>>4011296Now that the dust has settled, here is the only RPG definition no one on /vrpg/ was able to debunk:>The RPGness of an RPG is a determined strictly by how much the CONSEQUENCES of the CHOICES that the player makes for the player's representation are determined by the previous CHOICES that affected said player's representation./Thread
>>4020299>non RPG: a game in which you, the player. get better at playing the game>RPG: a game in which the character(s) you control get better at playing the game>these are two ends of a spectrum which encompasses ARPGs and action games with RPG elementsOr we just don't include action games into the definition. ARPGs aren't a subgenre; they are hybrid genre as a combination of two different things as RPGs and action games. Acknowledging a "spectrum" between ARPGs and action games with RPG elements is unnecessary in defining an RPG the same way trying to distinguish when coffee with milk becomes coffee flavored milkshakes (you know what I'm talking about) is unnecessary in defining coffee, a beverage brewed from roasted ground coffee beans (seeds from the Coffea plant).Also, people know what is a woman even before genetics. All of the caveats are unnecessary to debunk the circular argument of trannies.
>>4020332>If you hack a videogame so that the player stops accumulating XP and they stop leveling up, does the game suddenly stop being an RPG? If you crawl an entire dungeon, defeating every enemy within via turn-based combat (making target choices and ability choices and rolling dice on the outcomes), and rescue the imprisoned princess who rewards you with a kiss and honorary title, but you don't gain a levels or earn any weapons or equipment that makes the characters objectively more powerful, were you somehow NOT playing an RPG?Correct. By hacking development out, you created a story-driven tactics game.
>>4020693>End threading your own postIt is a retarded answer.
>>4011296I don’t think there has ever been a good definition for what any genre is that isn’t just “it like that thing”
>>4020641Retarded RPG definition. Doesn't exclude wargames.Doesn't exclude interactive fiction. Doesn't account for the massive amount of time spent in any rpg where character development is not actively occurring. You are a lightweight and should spend less time obsessing about poos and trannies. Actually read the thread to educate yourself.
>>4020944It takes a lot of effort but we don't get people calling every game with fighting a fighting game. We do have people saying that turn base combat and random encounters (things in the genre since its inception) disqualify something from being an RPG (the JRPGs aren't RPGs crowd).
>>4020949>Doesn't exclude wargames.In wargames you are an overseer of an entire army/squad/battalion that isn't exposed directly to many consequences of his actions. I said >affected player's representation>Doesn't exclude interactive fiction. Braindead brown nigger. Interactive fiction is like saying "turn based game". It's just a different style of conveying information to the player. Most interactive fiction is just adventure games, but it is absolutely possible to have roleplaying games that are interactive fiction. Cope & seethe.>Doesn't account for the massive amount of time spent in any rpg where character development is not actively occurring.??? Genuine subhuman. It is literally the most accounting definition of that because I said "RPGness". So yes, if it's just inside a bonus minigame you can find as an easter egg inside a FPS, it doesn't make the FPS an RPG. Likewise, you can have an FPS that improves your weapons and utility features regularly but other than that it's mostly click like a brown monkey & consoom, like Skyrim. It has a bit of RPG elements. Meanwhile, proper action RPGs like Gothic? Exponential difference between life and death depending on a huge amount of choices needed before you get good armor and good weapon skills as a consequence. Orcs seem unbeatable when you're fresh off the elevator. And it still has player action exploits that do let you perform feats your character shouldn't be able to. True action RPG. All Whites prefer Gothic over Bethesda turds, as demonstrated in this thread.Your next try, brown tranny?
definitionbros, i had that dream again last night.. the one where i gave an eloguent rpg definition to end all arguments... it felt so real
>>4019171>RPGs don't have exclusive domain of the concept of "playing a role".Yes, yes they do. That's their very defining characteristic. Game systems or mechanics as you guys call them are on the contrary not tied to a genre in anyway. They are means, not ends.
>>4020977holy meltdown, if you said exactly what you wrote in your last few replies in real life at a town hall or something you would be instantly institutionalized. Do you have no shame?
>>4020985>Mario is an RPG because you play the role of Mario.>>4020985Tranny logic returns.
>>4011297I think the definition is as follows :- The game cannot be completed in one sitting- There is RNG involved rather than relying only on mechanical skills
>>4021099>There is RNG involved rather than relying only on mechanical skillsCounter-Strike is an RPG
>>4011581>>4011296At the bare minimum I think a traditional RPG (to differentiate from action and ARPGs which are not the same genre,) RPGs should have dialogue options. I think it's also important to differentiate the purpose of the game is to experience both the world and the writing to differentiate it from a game where the purpose is to autistically tweak out your character until you reach critical mass (Diablo and Diablo-likes) which are a style of RPG that isn't the same Western or even JRPG
>>4021099So is skyrim not an RPG?
>>4021312An RPG does not require any dialog, branching or otherwise. Certainly not prewritten dialog options.
>>4020977>Interactive fiction is like saying "turn based game".Yeah, and an RPG definition needs to exclude turn-based games that aren't RPGs, you dumb fuck. Your definition fails to exclude ANY interactive fiction, because you're retarded and haven't thought anything through.>??? Genuine subhuman. It is literally the most accounting definition of that because I said "RPGness"lmao. I nailed the exact fundmental problem with your definition and you short-circuited, clinging to circular appeals about "RPGness" and a whole bunch of random irrelevant blabbing about progression in games gothic and skyrim.A game with turn-based, wizardry style combat and dungeon-crawling is an RPG. There is no other genre it can be ("DRPG" is an RPG subgenre). If you ask an LLM to generate a simple text-based RPG, you'll get something like picrel.It does not matter if you got to choose your character's class and stats.It does not matter whether your character levels up.It does not matter whether you play as a character with fixed stats or get to choose your own.It does not matter if there are multiple-choice dialogs or NPC relationship ratings or branching storylines.Most RPGs include such features, because they are popular and proven ways to develop or enhance the actual fundamentals. They often make RPGs better. But they do not, by themselves, define the genre.
forgot pic of simple LLM rpg
>>4021850>Yeah, and an RPG definition needs to exclude turn-based games that aren't RPGs, you dumb fuck.Not her but you are grasping at straws. Does her definition include all of interactive fiction? Objectively no. You just talk out of your ass and then lie. Zork or The Hitchhiker's Guide don't have any different consequences for the player's action. You interact with the right thing, you progress the story. The result is purely determined by the player. Just like shooting weapons in Counter Strike. A trained counter terrorist guy can't hit anything point blank if the player can't. Arthur Dent is smarter than you (you specifically) and yet he can't solve the fish puzzle if you are controlling him and not reading a guide because you're a mentally retarded nigger.>If you ask an LLMOh ok, Indian nigger.Everything else you said is just complete irrelevant schizo babble that isn't going against her definition.>It does not matter if you got to choose your character's class and stats.>It does not matter whether your character levels up.>It does not matter whether you play as a character with fixed stats or get to choose your own.>It does not matter if there are multiple-choice dialogs or NPC relationship ratings or branching storylines.She literally didn't mention a single one if these things. Like actually kill yourself, seriously. You can't even understand what you're spamming, you're just an LLMjeet posting what the LLM generates. Like this whole block I quoted above. You have no clue what it says.
>>4021872>nigger nigger tranny nigger tranny jeet The buildtard definition is invalid also for reasons clearly explained. None of your post refutes any of it. The anon you are going to bat for lost its mind over people not jerking off "Choice and Consequence" language specifically.>>4021872>She literally didn't mention a single one if these things.Those are all required by any remotely charitable reading of "affects representation of character," which is the part that you got all mad about in the first paragraph.You shouldn't try to talk about things you don't understand.
>>4011296These are correct. But an RPG is more than these. The primary thing about RPGs is the role playing. The reason RPGs have the player progression system is mostly about progressing through the game world as the role. If the player started the game every time they loaded the game as a generic character with the same stats every time and no persistent 'role' the game wouldn't be an RPG. But loading your saved character that is level 24, has whatever inventory and items, and has done whatever quests, and has done whatever interactions with whatever characters, the game is an RPG.
>>4021907>CodexGOD just incidentally designs a banger RPG
>>4021907It's not an RPG. Litetally no one would recognize that game as an RPG outside your misguided cult. Congratulations on doing a better job than I ever could demonstrating the stupidity of your definition.
>>4021907>Your avatar is a magic vending machine. It is immobile but it can regenerate drinks etc and decide what the customer gets if they press the surprise me gatcha button. You can run out of magic if you don't get enough coin. You can be decommissioned if you don't earn enough coin. There is no mini game where you make the drinks etc tastier through careful player input, hand eye coordination or meta knowledge about what's good in real life. The game has a text only interface describing the situation customer after customer. There is no ending, you can read a history log and customer reactions to your actions.Does this count as wargame mechanics?
>>4021908Samefagging is spiritually Indian, fyi.
>>4022073meds. no one cares about your stinking country's religious beliefs
>>4021947Wrong guy.
>>4012822>>4013304The only correct answers. Whether you low IQs believe it or not, pout, bitch, moan and complain, the truth is that cRPGs (RPGs as a whole, even gaming as a whole since it derives the core principle from D&D) were and will always be a deliberate effort in an approximation to mimic Tabletop Games. Now, what we have to get at, is what the original intent of Tabletop and mostly, Dungeons and Dragons were all about. This can easily be found if you retards were not so normie.Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, both had different philosophies, however both of their concepts were mixed in together to a core principle that's been discussed in philosophy for ages and define the reals from the retards, and that principle is what is known as AGENCY. Or the Internal Locust of Control as the new word in town. Basically you use Agency to navigate the world around you that reacted to your choices which had an impact. The story portion was woven by your actions, not some some faggot who wanted to be a writer and wrote a narrative for you to consume. Secondly, there has been thousands of reports that the Role Play portion was clearly stated for you to be in the role of your ability, as in you weren't role playing a thief or performative acting, you the human has now those abilities but you still have to use your agency (logic, math, critical thinking skill, etc) to navigate the world around you. You weren't creating a "personality". You weren't dressed or cosplaying, it was never a drama club. Oh, and early D&D didn't have to do that much with dice rolling or stats whatsoever. That was never the intention, that came after Gygax lost control of TSR and they released 3.0 which basically became some DBZ bullshit.
>>4023707>Internal Locust of ControlSensible chuckle.gif
>>4023707No matter how you cut it, there is no workable definition of an RPG that includes Skyrim. You could put an A before it in the same way that you put Trans before Woman but that doesn't mean the definition of a woman should include males. The same can be said about the C in CRPG since CRPGs lack a human DM. Still C in CRPG is a result of medium not style like with ARPG. Despite D&D being the progenitor (or Chainmail but that is besides the point), there is no confusion on whether CoC, GURPS, or Pathfinder count. CRPG is funny genre name since it is supposed to mean Computer Role-Playing Game but so many people drop the C and muddle the genre with non-RPGs that C became Classic as a paradoxical acknowledgement of its roots.
>>4023707>The only correct answers. No. This is the only correct answer:>>4020641>RPGness of an RPG is a determined strictly by how much the CONSEQUENCES of the CHOICES that the player makes for the player's representation are determined by the previous CHOICES that affected said player's representation.The last time some soicuck/jeet attacked this, he got destroyed by the Codexgod's freshly designed RPG example.
>>4023707>Secondly, there has been thousands of reports that the Role Play portion was clearly stated for you to be in the role of your ability, as in you weren't role playing a thief or performative acting, you the human has now those abilities but you still have to use your agency (logic, math, critical thinking skill, etc) to navigate the world around you. You weren't creating a "personality""Whatever path you select for your PC to follow, you must then begin thinking like that persona. Whether the game is patterned after a real or an imaginary activity, you need to make your mind-set such that you can role-play your character realistically within the game milieu. If you are to be an interstellar explorer, don’t think in terms of becoming rich through trade and commerce. Piety becomes a cleric, caution and alertness a spy or a thief. You should be bold and aggressive as a knight, while as a worker of magic, you will tend toward reclusiveness and mystery. The rules and spirit of the game tell you what you can and cannot do in general and somewhat concrete terms, but it is very much up to the individual to take on the role of the PC and play it well." -Gary Gygax, Role-Playing Mastery, 1987>CRPG is funny genre name since it is supposed to mean Computer Role-Playing Game but so many people drop the C and muddle the genre with non-RPGs that C became Classic as a paradoxical acknowledgement of its roots.lol noIronically, games like Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma are more true to the core essence of old school DnD. Set out on a quest, defeat foes with sword, spell, and bow, plunder dungeons for loot, defeat their inhabitants by brawn and wits, take your loot back to town, sell it, buy training, improve your skills, and go out and do it again. But this thread's full of a bunch of pretentious faggots who forgot how to have fun.
>>4023760>DO NOT REDEEM SKYRIM SAAR
>>4011296Skyrim is the quintessential single-player RPG. Mass Effect and Dragon Age are better for adventuring with a party.Then there's RPGs where you don't even get to create a character. Witcher 3 did it really well with offering some fun choices. JRPGs like FF7 does have a good story with a focus on the characters, and the numbers do go up. And that's how even CRPG Addict's definition could be summed up. Numbers go up.
>>4023920>Skyrim is the quintessential single-player RPG.>>4019108>>Skyrim isn't an "edge case".>Yes, it is. Because it's an Action RPG with heavy simulation elements.>RPGs do not include action mechanics inherently. So a game that blends them is a hybrid.>RPGs do include simulation elements inherently, but typically limits them to a certain level of abstraction. So as an RPG design leans more heavily on the simulation elements it becomes more like a simulation genre and less RPG genre.The only reason people refuse to give a workable definition of an RPG is defending Skyrim.>>4023760>Ironically, games like Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma are more true to the core essence of old school DnD. Set out on a quest, defeat foes with sword, spell, and bow, plunder dungeons>RPG is fantasy setting
>>4023924>The only reason people refuse to give a workable definition of an RPG is defending Skyrim.It’s because there’s a group of spergs who made “I like RPGs” their personality. If they like a game, it’s an RPG, and if they don’t like it, it’s not an RPG.Look at how many posts in this thread are to the effect of “any definition of RPG MUST categorically exclude Skyrim because it just HAS to okay”How many times on this board have you seen an anon acknowledge, in a discussion of a game they dislike, “yes, game X is an RPG, and although I do like RPGs, I did not care for that one in particular”?How many times on this board have you seen an anon state, in a discussion of a game they dislike, “X isn’t an RPG”?For a related phenomenon, see also: “hip hop” is music I like and think is good, “rap” is music I dislike and think is bad
>>4023929>Look at how many posts in this thread are to the effect of “any definition of RPG MUST categorically exclude Skyrim because it just HAS to okay”If everyone agrees that Skyrim is an ARPG and an ARPG is a hybrid genre of Action game and RPG, then what is an RPG? An ARPG can't be hybrid of itself. It is the trans women are women argument. If that is true, why is the trans part needed?
>>4023929Bro, it's one anon
>>4023941I only pick Skyrim because it gets the strongest response. Any ARPG would made the same point but people would still crave out an exception for Skyrim.
>>4023934>then what is an RPG?In the strictest and original sense, a tabletop roleplaying game. DnD and its descendants. Thus, cRPGs are not RPGs, hence the “computer” modifier, so saying that cRPGs are RPGs is troon logic. Do you find that useful? Probably not.In the broader context the term “RPG” is used today and on this board, it is the set of many sub-genres of video games adapted from (tabletop) RPG mechanics. I provided you with a Venn diagram example of the concept earlier in this thread.Your fundamental error is that you’re attempting to appeal to the immutable and insubstantial essence of the True RPG, the Platonic ideal of the concept, while also attempting to perform a materialist and analytical definition-by-exhaustion to pin down the precise boundaries of something that doesn’t have physical boundaries. This is a contradiction, and will never yield satisfactory results, as Diogenes will eternally poke holes in your attempt with edge cases and pithy refutations. Behold, anon’s RPG.I know an RPG when I see one.
>>4023959>I know an RPG when I see one.The cowards answer.>In the broader context the term “RPG” is used today and on this board,-is absolutely useless. /v/ and /vrpg/ are full of retards. Don't use "how people use it" argument. It gets you to retarded places like the ever retarding definition of Fascism.>adapted from (tabletop) RPG mechanics.A lot of games borrowed from TTRPGs. That doesn't make them RPGs.>I provided you with a Venn diagram example of the concept earlier in this thread.That Venn diagram sucked. You made TTRPGs into its own subgenre of RPGs.>Your fundamental error is that you’re attempting to appeal to the immutable and insubstantial essence of the True RPG,Ooga booga pretendman fight other pretendman with numbers.>the Platonic ideal of the concept, while also attempting to perform a materialist and analytical definition-by-exhaustion to pin down the precise boundaries of something that doesn’t have physical boundaries. This is a contradiction, and will never yield satisfactory results, as Diogenes will eternally poke holes in your attempt with edge cases and pithy refutations.Again, the problem with Plato's man isn't that he tried to define man but he tried to define man by characteristics that doesn't make a man a man. In this context, the word man refers to a person which is more of a philosophical idea. Man as in human is homo sapien. Man as an adult human male is a category of humans which are expected to hold a specific moral standard.>In the strictest and original sense, a tabletop roleplaying game. DnD and its descendants. Thus, cRPGs are not RPGs, hence the “computer” modifier, so saying that cRPGs are RPGs is troon logic.I already addressed that.One core aspect of RPGs that makes Skyrim fail to be an RPG is that Skyrim is about player skill. That is one point and we can't even move pass it.
>>4023986>One core aspect of RPGs that makes Skyrim fail to be an RPG is that Skyrim is about player skill. That is one point and we can't even move pass it.Going back to the woman analogy, it would be like people discussing the definition of a woman but everyone refuses to say that Caitlyn Jenner is a biological male thus can't be a woman. This is while people are arguing about the futility of giving an objective cut off age for someone to become an adult like that is the fucking issue. Or asking if Neanderthals count as humans or how much Neanderthal DNA is too much. No, we are all stuck the female question.
>>4023924>The only reason people refuse to give a workable definition of an RPG is defending Skyrim.No, there are a lot of reasons for retarded definitions, and a perfectly valid and robust definition of RPG will include Skyrim as an edge case.Some people are obsessed with disqualifying JRPGsSome people are obsessed with character builds and think that an RPG absolutely MUST let you define your own character and must have that character's stats change with gameplay.Some people are obsessed with branching dialogs and storytelling.Some people desperately want the definition of an RPG to be completely divorced from combat or dungeon crawlingSome people don't understand how videogame RPGs involve different distinguishing features from tabletop RPGs.Some people only play ImmSims like Deus Ex or modern casual ARPGs and have no real idea about the vast number of other RPGs. (Your "Skyrim defenders" fit in this category. )Some people get hung up on the literal dictionary definition of "Roleplaying"A lot of people don't know anything and just like trolling or posting inane one-liners that don't mean anything.>>RPG is fantasy settingIt doesn't have to be, but if you actually knew anything, you'd understand that fantasy setting is a strong correlation with RPG for important reasons. A fantasy setting is the default because RPGs are evolved from medieval fantasy wargaming mechanics.>>4023956What you don't understand is that people aren't wrong to call Skyrim an RPG. They are wrong to call it "The Quentessential" but that's fine so long as you successfully dispute that part of it. >then what is an RPG?An RPG is when you take tactical wargame mechanics to simulate a world and play as a character that goes on combat-oriented adventures in that world. That's the one-liner, the root definition. Many details flow downstream of that source and is how games like Skyrim get included as RPGs despite having action mechanics.
>>4023959>In the strictest and original sense, a tabletop roleplaying game. DnD and its descendants. Thus, cRPGs are not RPGs, hence the “computer” modifier, so saying that cRPGs are RPGs is troon logic. Do you find that useful? Probably not.TTRPGs are different from VGRPGs because the entire classification landscape is different and evolved differently.On tabletop, RPGs are distinguished from games like Monopoly, Scrabble, Poker and Whist. Simply saying "a game where you play the role of a character" is sufficient under those conditions. In scrabble, you aren't playing the role of a wordsmith you are just yourself. But videogames quickly evolved to simulate worlds, from text adventures to side-scrolling shooters and platform games to open-world survival sandbox games like Minecraft. They all involve what would, by tabletop standards, count as "roleplaying" (you're playing the role of Mario, the Bad Dudes, Captain Falcon, Chun-Li, or whoever).So in videogames, a different definition is required. Yes, technically cRPGs began as attempts to implement tabletop RPGs on computers, but this quickly evolved into a distinct genre of its own separate from tabletop games. And that evolved genre has identifiable traits that distinguish it from other videogames and videogame genres.>In the broader context the term “RPG” is used today and on this board, it is the set of many sub-genres of video games adapted from (tabletop) RPG mechanics.While true, this is incidental. I say "wargame mechanics" as a shortcut, but the point isn't to invoke the origin the point is to succinctly describe the nature of stats etc. and how they are used in the gameplay. We could elaborate and say something along the lines of: "game with single or party-scale units and terrain defined by a human-manageable number of numeric properties, where gameplay involves using these numbers to reason about a world simulated with chance-driven formulas" Aka "stats and dice-rolling."
>>4023986>One core aspect of RPGs that makes Skyrim fail to be an RPG is that Skyrim is about player skill. That is one point and we can't even move pass it.I agree with what you've said, but early D&D and the OSR in general which tries to mimic D&D do focus and and emphasize that player skill>character skill. >>4023749In other words, that's what agency is.
>>4024112>No, there are ... edge case.>What ... Skyrim an RPG. They are wrong to call it "The Quentessential" ... dispute that part of it.Skyrim is not an outlier or an edge case. It is epitome of the genre that genre is >>RPG is fantasy setting>It doesn't have to be,... RPGs are evolved from medieval fantasy wargaming mechanics.Then why bring it up? If you make an RPGland, it is going to be mostly Fantasy RPG stuff but that isn't the point. Someone can be super fucking girly but it doesn't change the fact that they have a dick.>...JRPGsYes by saying that it has turn base combat (the thing was in the genre from the start)>... define your own character and must have that character's stats change with gameplay.We can have a discussion on that.>... branching dialogs and storytelling.What you want from RPGs is an entirely separate discussion. Also, dungeon crawlers and VNs.>... divorced from combat or dungeon crawlingYes, it is from the anti-JRPG crowd who want a self-contradictory definition made for TES.>Some people don't understand how videogame RPGs involve different distinguishing features from tabletop RPGs.Until skill based d20s are more popular than regular d20s, the confusion is unwarrented.>Some people only play ImmSims like Deus Ex or modern casual ARPGs and have no real idea about the vast number of other RPGs. (Your "Skyrim defenders" fit in this category. )There are more people who like Skyrim but hate other RPGs since Skyrim isn't an RPG.>Some people get hung up on the literal dictionary definition of "Roleplaying"This not that difficult.>>>/wsg/6193161It is tied to these people's idea of Immersion. To these people, immersion and roleplaying are ruined when the game says no because game mechanic. They have a very limited abstract thinking. Yahtzee is a dumb faggot because he can't accept the game telling him that he is shit.>>4024446>emphasize that player skill>character skill.Skill based dice don't precede regular dice.
>>4023986>/vrpg/ [is] full of retardsI know, I'm responding to one who disputes that tabletop roleplaying games are a subset of roleplaying games. Apparently there's an entire board full of "RPG fans" who don't even know what RPGs are.>Ooga booga pretendman fight other pretendman with numbers.Panzer General is an RPG.>Again, the problem with Plato's man isn't that he tried to define man but he tried to define man by characteristics that doesn't make a man a man.He was trying to assemble a list of descriptors that would collectively define the boundaries of the concept of "man", just like you are attempting to do with the concept of "RPGs". It's astounding to me that you did not immediately see the parallels. And then, in response to "hybrids" and "edge cases" you must scramble to lengthen the "definition" and bolt on more clauses, just like "with broad, flat nails".>One core aspect of RPGs that makes Skyrim fail to be an RPG is that Skyrim is about player skill. That is one point and we can't even move pass it.Legitimately, you sound like you haven't even played Skyrim, and just dislike the idea of it because it was popular. A level 80 character will simply one-shot a level 1 character due to their statistics and the game mechanics.
>>4023986>Skyrim is about player skill.You have to be shitting me, right?Skyrim doesn't require skill. At least, not the dumb way you use that phrase.If you're a fighter in Skyrim, you just run up to bad guys and start bashing them with your hammer, that you probably have enhanced to the max with smithing and maybe enchanting. Maybe you block with your shield sometimes if you're in the mood and want to screw around. There's no part where you're required to carefully time your attacks or dodges or precisely maneuver through hazardous environments as in a real action game. If you're a thief you sneak up on stuff. There's a slight test of awareness and dynamic positioning like a real stealth game in that you can't completely fuck up, but success or failure is mostly dependent on your character's stealth skill.Archers just point and shoot, you deal damage based on your character's skill and whatever various buffs you have.If you're a chemist you carry around potions that you can instantly use at any time opening your inventory (which pauses the game). No need for any manual dexterity or timing or anything like that.It's hard to imagine how stupid and completely unfamiliar with videogames someone has to be, to think that Skyrim is anything like a real action game.
Games that are rpgs are games that allow you to roleplay. It's that simple.Role-playing is the ability to make choices in a story that have meaningful consequences relative to the game story. It's that simple.Whether those choices are gatekept by player skill or stat points is completely contingent on other game mechanics and the kind of game youre playing.Therefore a strategy game can be an rpg, an fps game can be an rpg, an adventure game can be an rpg.A visual novel or CYOA cannot be an rpg, because it is a story that you read, not a game. Duh. I didnt read the rest of the thread but you can safely assume any other definition is wrong and gay and being pushed by play pretend tism-maxxers or numbergoupniggers
>>4024462>Skyrim is not an outlier or an edge case. It is epitome of the genre that genre isNo, it isn't. RPGs sit in-between purely abstract games of chance and full realistic world simulators. A degree of realism or at least verisimilitude is required by an RPG, its various abstractions are intended to simulate a world and its combat, but if that goes too far then the game is going to wind up in a different genre-- life sim, survival sim, medieval combat sim, open world sandbox sim, and so on.On tabletop, this distinction isn't especially relevant. The DM/GM can arbitrarily simulate anything as realistically as the group will find satisfying. If you want a simulated survival experience, using an RPG framework probably makes sense. But computers have far greater potential to simulate the world and its physical properties. In videogames, simulation genres are distinct from RPGs.So Skyrim is an ARPG on its way to being an Immersive Sim or Open World Sim. Definitely not "THE quintessential single-player RPG.">>JRPGs>Yes by saying that it has turn base combat (the thing was in the genre from the start)You do know what the word "disqualifying" means, right?
>>4024677retarded post.Your definition is too simple and thus fails to be true or functional.
>>4011296Behold, a CRPG!
>>4024670>You have to be shitting me, right?>Skyrim doesn't require skill.That is because it is easy as fuck.>>4024663>A level 80 character will simply one-shot a level 1 character due to their statistics and the game mechanics.That is a painfully low bar.>>4024670>It's hard to imagine how stupid and completely unfamiliar with videogames someone has to be, to think that Skyrim is anything like a real action game.It is designed to not be challenging as an RPG or an Action Game.>>4024663>I know, I'm responding to one who disputes that tabletop roleplaying games are a subset of roleplaying games. Apparently there's an entire board full of "RPG fans" who don't even know what RPGs are.TTRPGs are the only real RPGs.>>4024691>You do know what the word "disqualifying" means, right?You haven't seen the retarded arguments in 7th Gen when the industry tried to kill off JRPGs.>>4024691>No, it isn't. RPGs sit in-between purely abstract games of chance and full realistic world simulators. A degree of realism or at least verisimilitude is required by an RPG, its various abstractions are intended to simulate a world and its combat, but if that goes too far then the game is going to wind up in a different genre-- life sim, survival sim, medieval combat sim, open world sandbox sim, and so on.>So Skyrim is an ARPG on its way to being an Immersive Sim or Open World Sim. Definitely not "THE quintessential single-player RPG."Skyrim is not RPG but it is the epitome of its genre which is an ARPG which has no meaningful distinction from an Action Game with RPG elements like GoW Ragnarök.All of these gay arguments just to defend Skyrim. I didn't even comment on the game's quality until now because it doesn't matter.
>can't define RPG>move on to desperately rag on skyrimYou guys are useless
>>4024701>You haven't seen the retarded arguments in 7th Gen when the industry tried to kill off JRPGs.Just a reminder of the retardation at the time, people were arguing that Dark Souls was a WRPG.
>>4024701>That is because it is easy as fuck.Super Mario Brothers is also easy as fuck, but is still obviously a game designed to test reflexes and coordination in a way that Skyrim IS NOT. Interesting how you're too braindead to see this.>It is designed to not be challenging as an RPG or an Action Game.It's designed like an RPG, in that it's more about making decisions for your character based on the character's traits, and seeing the outcomes of those decisions play out in the world. It's missing the random chance element typical of RPG mechanics, that's it.It's not designed like an action game in that there's no real emphasis on reflexes or timing or any kind of ~execution~ challenges. >TTRPGs are the only real RPGs.Wrong.>>4024736It's one retard. Well, two now, thanks to you.
>>4024701>All of these gay arguments just to defend Skyrim.btw there's no defense of Skyrim's quality. Just that it is validly classified an (A)RPG.
Genuinely, how can anyone after this thread deny that /vrpg/ is just /v/ with Indian shills doing it for free for Bethesda (and possibly other corpos)?There weren't such do it for free brownoids in the /vg/ RPG general before /vrpg/, which is now just Owlcat/Bioslop general. Why? Because there wasn't as much of an incentive, because the shilling would be compartmentalized.
>>4024880>Genuinely, how can anyone after this thread deny that /vrpg/ is just /v/ with Indian shills doing it for free for Bethesda (and possibly other corpos)?Quote one example.You won’t, because you can’t, hence vagueposting.
>>4024891I quoted every single one of your posts itt but it got flagged by nu4chan. So just look at your tab, you probably have "mark my posts" enabled like the NPC you are.
>>4024895Imagine being asked to quote a single example, then refusing and making up pathetic excuses. A shamefur display.
>>4024901But I did quote a single example, you illiterate brown turd.>>4024898>boys*saarsAnd hilarious how you think I'm your new nemesis when I'm actually your old one. I didn't even read any "rpg maker" posts itt before, but now that I know she offends you, she is right and you're wrong.
>>4024916>I-I did quote numerous examples, they just uhhhhhh go to another high school
>>4024981Braindead brown turd jeet, I quoted your post so that's an example on its own.This post is me quoting another example. Same brown jeet. You can try to prove otherwise but you want. No AI saar will turn your poohand into a real human hand.
>>4024820>Super Mario Brothers is also easy as fuck, but is still obviously a game designed to test reflexes and coordinationSuper Mario Bros isn't as easy as Skyrim.>It's designed like an RPG, in that it's more about making decisions for your character based on the character's traits>>4024663>A level 80 character will simply one-shot a level 1 character due to their statistics and the game mechanics.Imagine using 79 level difference to prove that builds matter.>>4024822>btw there's no defense of Skyrim's quality. Just that it is validly classified an (A)RPG.I just said that Skyrim quality isn't the issue.>>4024844How much are you going to bet that anything in pic>>4019068 has anything to do with the RPG mechanics?Noticed how TES keeps removing staples of the genre? No attributes, no classes, no reduction of damage from fatigue, no hunger. Skyrim isn't designed to be an RPG.
>>4018249>RPG Game>Role Playing Game GameNo matter how dumb these threads get, at least we can all agree on one thing: fuck normies.
>>4024677Truly the only difference between Panzer General and an RPG is marketing.There are many, many games not marketed as RPGs at all that if you reversed things and bound their rulesets into a hardcover book for pen and paper the tabletop community would welcome as RPGs with open arms.I'm not being sarcastic or ironic at all here, my point is that it is silly for we, who are essentially gourmands of this genre by giving this much of a fuck about it more than normies to let marketeers from corposlut groups define our genre like EA or even Bethesda now that they've fallen to H1B DEI hires.
>>4023986>One core aspect of RPGs that makes Skyrim fail to be an RPG is that Skyrim is about player skill.lolno. in-game stats and skills utterly trump any needed input by the player or related player skill, which is one of the strongest arguments in favor of it being an rpg.
>>4025550Ah, a 79 level difference being too impossible to overcome means builds matter.Also, the game has level scaling so who gives a shit?
>>4025557>moving the goalposts after being BTFOMany such casesThe anons bitching about Skyrim in this thread haven’t even played it
>>4025650Skyrim isn't skill-based or stat-based. It just designed to be played by the mentally handicapped and crippled.
>>4025700>It just designed to be played by the mentally handicapped and crippled.Based turn-based RPG combat enjoyer. Me too, brother.
Maybe that anon is right about the Indians.
>>4024891>Quote one example.This post sure made him mad. He’s still vagueposting and talking about himself in the third person.
>>4025721>illiterate jeetranny thought he had a """win""" when he ran away>>4025034and the first quote was here>>4024895your comeback, brownoid? no hand? just shitting on the street again? it's on you to prove those aren't valid quotes, stinky saar
>>4025925>>>[phenomenon] is occurring in this very thread>>Cite one example>uh I tried but it wouldn’t let meBehold, the “high verbal IQ” of RPGCodex’s first trans-Indian poster.
>>4025956>he literally cannot understand because his AI is ignoring posts quoting him@JeetAI : exception -> escalate to saar's managerExpected behavior:>Saar's JeetAI can acknowledge quotes of saar in generated responses.Behavior in reality:>JeetAI doesn't acknowledge the quotes of its posts as part if the reply.>Saar is illiterate and just copy pastes the text in a loop.Recommendation:>No rupees for saar assigned to Bethesda marketing today.-> EXECUTE
>>4025965bloody bitch baster behenchod!!!! i losted ruppee for all week because of this!!! your trans Indian! stupid chod! i rape my grandfather now
>>4025973This but unironically.
>>4011296>What IS an RPG?A miserable little pile of code
Assuming nobody wants to argue over the definition of "roleplaying game", a "computer roleplaying game" is an RPG that is realistic to play in a tabletop environment. CRPGs are extremely influenced by tabletop RPGs to the point where many early CRPGs were just interpretations of said rulesets. RPGs as a whole don't normally have boiled down rulesets that are convenient to play on a tabletop.There isn't much deeper to get into there. Other analysis can draw parallels between CRPGs, but they almost always go straight back to the fact that it is a digitized tabletop RPG.
>>4011296When a genre changes mediums, it has different boundaries. ARPGs are not CRPGs. This is why I said that this Venn diagram >>4019089 is retarded
>>4019019Sims 3 with World Adventures is an RPG as it includes a leveling combat system, adventures to foreign lands, with clear objectives, achievable goals, and a risk of death, while having to face adversity that carries consequences including death.
>>4032953>>4019019Sims games are strategy games with RPG games. More RPG than Skyrim for sure but still the strategy part dominates. The lack of adventuring, combat and danger is irrelevant btw. Strategic planning lets Sims - even Sims whose (pre)life choices (nurture & nature) shouldn't lead them to success - succeed at almost anything the player wants them to.If the Sim's free will was more competent and more responsive to their actual wants, needs and capabilities, Sims would be a lot more RPG than strategy.
>>4033019>If the Sim's free will was more competent and more responsive to their actual wants, needs and capabilities,>Sims would be a lot more RPG than strategy.Less of a game, more of a RPG...Coincidence?
>>4025451>Truly the only difference between Panzer General and an RPG is marketing.And a lack of story with meaningful consequences and choices, which is why it is not in fact an RPG of any description.But this is a great opportunity to point out that you inadvertently strengthened my argument by reminding me of the wargame rpg Burden of Command.
>>4032949>ARPGs are not CRPGs. This is why I said that this Venn diagram, that is clearly stating that ARPGs are not CRPGs, is retardedIlliterate-chama, I kneel
>>4033037If you really need it, then imagine the lowered player control is compensated with more budget for David Gaider to write partially voiced romance dialogues for "you" (your simfert - sim self insert) and your "simfu" (portmanteau of "sim" and "waifu" which is Japanese for ""sister")
>>4032953Great example illustrating the usefulness of the definition. They took a game that isn't an RPG and specifically added elements to make it an RPG. World Adventures is considered an RPG. Vanilla Sims 3 is not.
>>4033049You haven't even played the game. Panzer General features a gripping and compelling story, with meaningful choice and consequence, and a branching storyline (not surpassed until Witcher 2) and many different endings, depending on the players actions during the storyline. Entire sub branches of the campaign are missable and skippable and others open up different alternate versions of maps depending on one’s successes and failures.It features deep tactical combat with the ability to compose your party of many different unit types, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. Your units gain experience and level up as you use them, and feature multiple different branching upgrade options, such as attaching different types of transportation. Units have a variety of different statistics that affect the outcome of combat, along with random chance, and these increase as you grind levels.The game has a rich narrative with engaging dialogue and even some voice acting, a rarity for that point in the 90s, which helps you get immersed in the game world and lore. You really get to choose what kind of character you’ll roleplay, and the game mechanics support this, with the narrative branching in response. Are you a cautious player who is hesitant to lose any units, at the cost of time? Are you dating and bold and achieve optional objectives quickly, but as the expense of your men’s lives? Will you succeed and save the world from Judeo-Bolshevism and get the good ending? Or will the world fall into an hundred years of darkness due to your failure? Only you can decide, in Panzer General.
>>4033049>>4034087>And a lack of story with meaningful consequences and choices>features a gripping and compelling story, with meaningful choice and consequence, and a branching storylineAre we really doing this "it is bad so it isn't of X genre" shit? This is why I go for the one drop rule with Skyrim (it is hardly just one drop) to disqualify it because we can't a working definition otherwise.
>>4025557>Also, the game has level scaling so who gives a shit?Skyrim's level scaling isn't "lazy" scaling. It's not like the entire world levels up as you level up and everything gets stronger. Don't feel like explaining all the details but the short answer is that "level scaling" in no way supports the argument that """player skill""" (iow action-game style execution skills) is more relevant than character stats and decision-making.>>4025700>>4025701Being a good game or a bad game has nothing to do with how it's classified.
>>4033049>>4034087>>4034184All completely misguided logic. Story, branching or not, is not relevant to genre classification of an RPG. The reason people get confused and think so is because the "needs to be about adventuring from field-character perspective" requirement of an RPG yields excellent conditions for story. This includes both authored stories and emergent narratives. But the story is not a requirement. Any video game can tell a story, any video game can include branching plot lines, any videogame can include character development. None of those are distinct to RPGs and RPGs do not have a hard requirement to have a story (except in the most barebones possible sense of having a character on an adventure).Panzer General is not an RPG because you do not play as the characters on the field. You play is the commander of the troops. This is THE key distinction between wargames and RPGs.>This is why I go for the one drop ruleAnd this is why you will constantly be wrong.There will never be a one drop rule for RPGs. The definition has more essential complexity than that. There are, at the very least, two broad components, maybe three depending on how you want to count them:1. Wargame-like mechanics (tactical, stat-driven combat simulation and related mechanics like stat-driven terrain traversal and hazard detection/avoidance)2. Play as the individual units (characters) on the field, not their commander.3. Go on adventures in the world as these characters. This definition works exceptionally well and doesn't make blatant errors that fly in the face of intuition.
>>4034262Some tests:>Legend of Zelda (NES)1. Hard Fail (lacks centrality of stat-driven simulation mechanics)2. Pass3. Soft pass (Hyrule is barely a world)Result: NOT an RPG, but may be mistaken for one sometimes.>Panzer General1. Pass2. Hard Fail3. Hard FailResult: NOT an RPG (is a Wargame)>Skyrim1. Soft pass2. Pass3. PassResult: "Action RPG," weak on the wargame mechanics but not so weak as to justify classifying otherwise>Sims 3 vanilla1. Soft Fail (Has simulation mechanics, but no combat)2. Pass3. Hard FailResult: Not an RPG, Life Sim>Sims 3 World Adventures1. Soft Fail2. Pass3. PassResult: Very RPG-like simulation, lack of a combat system is main issue>Dark Souls1. Mostly Fail (has RPG-like stats, but mechanics and content are mostly action-oriented)2. Pass3. Barely Passing (Lordran is like Hyrule, barely a world sim)Result: NOT an RPG the stats and leveling allow some valid comparisons.>Baldur's Gate (any)1. Pass2. Pass3. PassResult: RPG>Final Fantasy VII1. Pass2. Pass3. PassResult: RPG
>>4034245>Skyrim's level scaling isn't "lazy" scaling.Don't care. Irrelevant. Dogshit idea. Unless it actively fucks you over like in Wizardry 8, I don't care how not "lazy" it is. Your build is shit? Well you better just start over.>>4034262>And this is why you will constantly be wrong.>There will never be a one drop rule for RPGs. The definition has more essential complexity than that.People call ARPGs a hybrid genre thus Action isn't a core or organically occurring feature of RPGs.>>4034245>Being a good game or a bad game has nothing to do with how it's classified.It isn't which is why I don't care about how much you fags try to say Skyrim is the exception to the rule. You might as well add DMC and GoWR.
>>4034268>Result: "Action RPG," weak on the wargame mechanics but not so weak as to justify classifying otherwise>Wargame mechanics>pauses game in the middle of combat>eat all of the foodYou might as well add BotW.
>>4034274>1. Soft pass>SoftYou are afflicted with black and white thinking. It's a mental disease.
>>4034278>You are afflicted with black and white thinking. It's a mental disease.Boo hoo. Modern society loves their "greys" because they don't need to be accountable for anything. Despite all their "open-mindedness", most people can't grasp simple concepts like the difference between immorality and amorality. People are still tricked by false dichotomies. The W*stiod mind still can't comprehend the concept of Yin and Yang. The "Grey" is a thought-terminating cliché.
>>4034268>>Dark Souls>1. Mostly Fail (has RPG-like stats, but mechanics and content are mostly action-oriented)>2. Pass>3. Barely Passing (Lordran is like Hyrule, barely a world sim)>Result: NOT an RPG the stats and leveling allow some valid comparisons.I'm trying to humor your definition and views, but this raised an eyebrow.
It's surreal that only a handful of posts in this thread have even touched on one of the defining characteristics of RPGs, namely roleplaying. Putting one's mindset in the character and making in-character choices that one's character would make, rather than strictly metagaming as the player to make the mechanically-optimal choices using out-of-character knowledge and goals. Though, I suppose it's not too surprising given the many low-functioning autists on this board who lack theory of mind.
>>4034331It's because that's not what actually defines an RPG, and never has been. Especially when discussing videogame RPGs as opposed to tabletop.
>>4034331My thoughts as well
>>4034348>It's because that's not what actually defines an RPG, and never has been.It absolutely is one of the defining pillars of RPGs (note ‘one of the’ and not ‘the’), and always has been, since the very beginning. It’s a major distinction between RPGs and the other genres with significant overlap (e.g. wargames).It’s honestly insane that this even needs to be stated. Shows how low the discourse and level of knowledge on this board has fallen.
>>4034285Yeah, sure, but do you have an argument? Think about what Dark Souls is actually like to play. You progress through a sequence of action challenges with emphasis on timing and execution of moves (awareness of hitboxes, your movesets vs the enemy moves, etc). HP functions as a standard mistake buffer, like a typical action game. When you make too many mistakes, you die and respawn at the last checkpoint to try again, exactly like an action game. The silly "prepare to die" meme arose simply because Dark Souls had a standard "try/fail/try-again" action gameplay loop. This differs from RPGs where there's at least some attempt to treat death as real and semi-permanent. Even if savescumming is allowed, RPGs pretend it doesn't happen, or at most have some cheesy rationale like a "save crystal" or something. RPGs are not typically designed with a try/fail+die/try-again loop.
>>4034352Nope. You are wrong. The most amusing part is you acting as if I've never heard your argument before, that somehow nobody ever tried to tell me that roleplaying games are primarily about method acting your character.
are we now seriously discussing that roleplaying is not part of a roleplaying game?
>>4034362I say:>one of the defining characteristics of RPGsYou say:>that's not what actually defines an RPGI say:>one of the defining pillars of RPGs (note 'one of the' and not 'the')You say:>roleplaying games are primarily about>primarilyThis is why no one wants to spend the time to have a conversation with you, btw.See: >>4024663 picrelGygax quote in >>4023760
>>4034262>2. Play as the individual units (characters) on the field, not their commander.Who exactly do you play in a blobbers like Wizardry where the whole party can get wiped and you just create new a party to replace the lost one?
>>4011296A game that focuses on party development and a variety of characters over a single, sole protagonist is just as much of an RPG. Perhaps more so
>>4034262>Any video game can include branching plot linesBut not all do, hence why some games are rpgs and some aren't>1. Wargame-like mechanics (tactical, stat-driven combat simulation and related mechanics like stat-driven terrain traversal and hazard detection/avoidance)>2. Play as the individual units (characters) on the field, not their commander.>3. Go on adventures in the world as these charactersPathfinder: Wrath simultaneously instantiates and contradicts these rules. Warcraft, Red Alert and various strategy games have levels, some times multiple linked levels, where you control a small group of unique, levelling characters.Still a terrible, ridiculously arbitrary and inconsistent definition all these years later.
>>4034439>Warcraft, Red Alert and various strategy gamesI just played Brood War and there was this mission where Duran leads a squad of Terran soldiers. You've got a ghost's stealth and lockdown abilities, as well as medics with their restoration, and even marines had their stimpaks (now worth using with medics). You also recruit allies, and can choose to let marines pilot mechs, and repair them with an SCV. It's a creative little mission with fun events.Anyways the point is it felt so much like Baldur's Gate that I kept instinctively hitting space bar to pause the real time combat.
>>4013781It's theoretically possible to win without engaging with the leveling mechanics (aliens can take stun damage from smoke inhalation so pure HWP run is winnable.)
>>4034354>RPGs where there's at least some attempt to treat death as real and semi-permanent.Reloading a save?That seems incredibly arbitrary. Death carries a penalty of dropping unused saves and respawning at your last "save" point, and enemies respawning, as well as losing your humanity/ember. While the gameplay is action for it's inputs, the stats matter and affect what you can actually wield and the effectiveness of what you wield, as well as your access to spells and certain skills. It has every RPG mechanic unless you consider turn based the only RPG way to interface with a game. Unless a game features a hardcore save feature where your character and save are wiped on death, it inherently enables and allows a "Save, try, fail, reload" gameplay, Dark Souls is simply faster with it instead of booting you to the start screen.
>>4034364>>4034331>>4029211Roleplaying means pretending to be someone else. The issue is the game part which means it has rules.Skyrim isn't an RPG.
>>4011306Been over two decades and this is still the only real answer
>>4034878>let's not give a definition because some belligerent opportunistic fags want to start shit
>>4034906>Are you saying I'll be able to define RPGs?>No, anon. I'm saying when the time comes, you won't need to.
>>4034354>Even if savescumming is allowed, RPGs pretend it doesn't happenWhat if there was an RPG, but the driving force of the main story is that you don't die when you are killed? What then?
>>4035182Notice how everyone is making clearly retarded and meaningless arguments?see>>4023760>Ironically, games like Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma are more true to the core essence of old school DnD. Set out on a quest, defeat foes with sword, spell, and bow, plunder dungeons for loot, defeat their inhabitants by brawn and wits, take your loot back to town, sell it, buy training, improve your skills, and go out and do it again. But this thread's full of a bunch of pretentious faggots who forgot how to have fun.It is clear that RPGs don't need to be like D&D or have a fantasy setting yet this faggot brings it up as an argument just to defend Skyrim. Dungeons & Dragons: Chronicles of Mystara is actually based on the DnD system and setting."What makes a good RPG?", "What is commonly found in an RPG?", "What you want in an RPG?", & "What is an RPG?" are all different questions.Muh choice and consequences, muh wargame mechanics, or muh roleplaying are all distractions from the elephant in the room.
definitionbros.. i think I'm CLOSE TO LOSING MY FUCKING MINDYEARSYEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF TRYING AND STILL IT ELUDES METHE MORE I REACH THE MORE DISTANT THE DEFINITION APPEARS THE PLOT IS LOSTheh.. it's almost ironic, is it not, my dear?
>>4035310>definitionbros.. i think I'm CLOSE TO LOSING MY FUCKING MIND>YEARS>YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF TRYING AND STILL IT ELUDES ME>THE MORE I REACH THE MORE DISTANT THE DEFINITION of a woman APPEARS>THE PLOT IS LOST>heh.. it's almost ironic, is it not, my dear?
>>4034369Roleplaying, by the first definition you gave, isn't one of the defining pillars.Gygax's quote is interesting, but not defining. Especially in the context of videogames, which is what this thread is about.You said:>It’s a major distinction between RPGs and the other genres with significant overlap (e.g. wargames).Except, of course, that you could have a wargame where you play as the commander of the troops, and engage in "roleplay" (by your definition) in the sense that you define a character for the commander and make decisions as character you've defined would have made them. (Eg I am going pretend to be a conservative, risk-avoidant general or a reckless foolhardy one). None of that roleplaying would make the game an RPG. It would still be a wargame.The key distinction is the playing as the units on the field. You may call this 'roleplaying' if you wish, but you are proving how fuzzy and difficult it is to maintain a coherent definition when you invoke that term. Because what you describe as roleplaying, that is "assuming the responsibility to voluntarily act out the character based on its definition," is not the critical deciding factor.>This is why no one wants to spend the time to have a conversation with you, btwNo, the reason people don't want to argue with me is because it's hard to come up with good counter-arguments against my definition. Yours is a bad and lazy one. You haven't taken the time to actually understand my definition or even to understand the point of genre classification in general.So they fling bad, lazy definitions and get mad when I point out the flaws and mistakes with them.
>>4034408Those are individual units. Parties in videogame RPGs are a conceit. In a classic RPG each player controls one player-character. In scenarios where there aren't enough players, a single player might play as multiple characters.Single-player videogames are obvious player-starved conditions and so RPGs that want to have full-party dynamics need to let the player control multiple PCs. The alternative is AI-controlled companions which has many of its own issues.The full-wipe, recruit new dynamic in wizardy/etc doesn't make it like an action game. Indeed it's a way preserve the RPG-style consequences of death. Your characters dies, they are gone unless resurrected by the defined fantasy rules of the setting for resurrection.Note how Dark Souls' Lordran just coincidentally designs it's setting with auto-resurrection mechanics. Somehow this auto-resurrection mechanic aligns EXACTLY with the demands of checkpoint level design in action games.
>>4035345>Note how Dark Souls' Lordran just coincidentally designs it's setting with auto-resurrection mechanics. Somehow this auto-resurrection mechanic aligns EXACTLY with the demands of checkpoint level design in action games.It is almost like Action games aren't RPGs. Skyrim isn't an RPG.
>>4035345>Note how Dark Souls' Lordran just coincidentally designs it's setting with auto-resurrection mechanics. Somehow this auto-resurrection mechanic aligns EXACTLY with the demands of checkpoint level design in action games.What a fascinating connection you have made.If you planted that into Baldur's Gate, would it be less of a RPG?
>>4035322>No, the reason people don't want to argue with me is because it's hard to come up with good counter-arguments against my definition.It’s actually because you repeatedly mischaracterize and misrepresent what other people are saying, because you’re not interested in understanding what they’re saying and why in an attempt to collaboratively arrive at the Truth, but to score cheap rhetorical points in an attempt to “prove” that they’re wrong and you’re right. Hope this helps.
>>4035377>What a fascinating connection you have made.>If you planted that into Baldur's Gate, would it be less of a RPG?People here are just saying retarded shit because their definition of an RPG is build on a foundation of sand.
>>4035407>It’s actually because you repeatedly mischaracterize and misrepresent what other people are saying,How about this, dipshit. Instead of coming into the thread and whining (disguised with smug arrogance) about how nobody mentioned 'roleplaying' and then bitching about a minor irrelevant """mischaracterization""" of this lazy garbage, why don't you actually read the thread, make a good faith attempt to understand the definition and then make robust counter-argument against it? Explain how you think that definition fails and how properly accounting for "roleplaying" would improve it.Until then stop crying like a little baby. If you want respect, try earning it.
>>4035377>If you planted that into Baldur's Gate, would it be less of a RPG?You couldn't not "plant that into Baldur's Gate" without turning the game into something completely unrecognizable. BG is based on D&D and D&D is not designed assuming that you'll die repeatedly while learning how to master a dungeon.Even if you were to throw out all the in-game resurrection mechanics in favor of a soulslike "bonfire" system, that's not much different from what you can actually get via savescumming. And what you'll find playing Baldur's Gate with savescumming is that you rarely ever need to try and fail repeatedly until you master the challenge. On the occasions where you do wipe (or voluntarily reload when a character dies), you'll almost always win on your next attempt, because planning is so heavily weighted in D&D.Furthermore, all of this is moot anyway because the RTwP system is a wargame-like combat system that emphasizes tactical decision-making not reflexes and hand-eye coordination.>>4035354Skyrim's level design is completely different from Dark Souls. Skyrim doesn't have the try/fail structure. It's really funny to see you all trying SO HARD to pretend like you don't know what it's like to play an action game.
>>4037672Tldr No, it would not be less of a RPG
>>4037672>Skyrim's level design is completely different from Dark Souls. Skyrim doesn't have the try/fail structure.You mean that there never really a need to get better in Skyrim because it is full of cheese tactics.>Furthermore, all of this is moot anyway because the RTwP system is a wargame-like combat system that emphasizes tactical decision-making not reflexes and hand-eye coordination.I don't see how in any conceivable does Skyrim even get a half pass in "wargame-like combat".Just to be clear, I don't consider Dark Souls to be an RPG either but the arguments are all flimsy. I decided to pick on Skyrim because it is the only way to fully resolve this confusion. I could have picked any ARPG to make the same point but everyone will still give Skyrim a pass even if we end up with the same conclusion. Imagine a hypothetical version of this thread where I chose to pick on Dark Souls or Witcher. Almost everyone would agree with me at this point but they would still choose to make Skyrim the exception to the rule. Now are talking about storyline and setting like it fucking matters to the definition of an RPG. We are ignoring point 1 to discuss the less important 2-4. Yes, RPGs are derived from war games but it is delusional to call controlling one guy war game mechanics. It made sense when there are other guys controlling 1 guys but I don't even think that "muh war game mechanics" even a good metric. Skyrim fails at that. What cause wargames and RPGs to diverge is the concept of "Quests" which doesn't necessarily mean Fantasy setting so there was no reason to bring that up to defend Skyrim.Skyrim doesn't fulfill my hard rule for an RPG; but since you faggots can't accept it, here is my soft rule.>If you can't make a build that is so bad that it easier to start over than to finish your run, then it isn't an RPG.I'm not saying games that fail this necessarily aren't RPGs (thus the soft rule) since I don't think the quality of the game matters.
>>4037634>seething projectionThis is why no one wants to have a conversation with you, btw
>>4011296Japs are the only ones that understood RPGs.
>>4038176>here is my soft rule.>>If you can't make a build that is so bad that it easier to start over than to finish your run>then it isn't an RPG.>I'm not saying games that fail this necessarily aren't RPGs (thus the soft rule)Very confident today. How would you sabotage your "build" in BG2 in order to qualify?
>>4037687The tl;dr is that your question is retarded because you literally cannot put Dark Souls try/fail mechanics into Baldur's Gate. It's not an action game, it doesn't have action game rules or structure, and those cannot be added without fundamentally changing the game into NOT AN RPG.
>>4038571You can, like said here>>4037672>not much different from what you can actually get via savescumming
>>4038176>You mean that there never really a need to get better in Skyrim because it is full of cheese tactics.Nope. I mean the gameplay is fundamentally designed to be an expression of your character build, where you make decisions on their behalf, moreso than a test of physical skills as a true action game. Skyrim being "full of cheese tactics" isn't some kind of accident. It's the deliberate consequence of conscious game design. Skyrim adds just enough action and decision-making to make players FEEL like they are the character the stats say they are. To feel like a warrior bashing heads in, like a wizard harnessing magical forces to defeat enemies and overcome obstacles or a sneaky rogue and master of stealth. That you can pause the game to chug potions at any time? Irrelevant, because the point was the feeling you got from obtaining the potions in the first place. Using them is the reward for crafting them, or finding them, or purchasing them with your speech/trade skills. There has to be some degree of theoretical risk for the combat to make any sense, but it's not the point.Dark Souls isn't like this. While builds do certainly alter the feel of the game, you can't say that the primary purpose of the gameplay is to express those builds.>I don't see how in any conceivable does Skyrim even get a half pass in "wargame-like combat".This has been explained multiple times in the thread, and I just explained it again.>I could have picked any ARPG to make the same point No, you can't do that. That's obtuse demonstrating you are unable to tell the difference between "games called ARPGs" that are in fact very different from each other in how they actually play.We could also go much further back in time, and compare Legend of Zelda (NES) and Final Fantasy Adventure/Seiken Densetsu (Game Boy). And how one game really embraces the action-based challenges (Zelda) while the other one puts more emphasis on your character level/build and equipment (FFA).
>>4038585Yeah, and then I go on to explain how that's still nothing like Dark Souls' bonfire system to actually play. See what happens when you try to "TL;DR" but are in fact retarded? You just omit critical details.
>>4038571>you literally cannot put Dark Souls try/fail mechanics into Baldur's Gate>>4038590>how that's still nothing like Dark Souls' bonfire systemTwo different arguments
>>4038188Disguising your excuses for not making a proper argument with the most mean thing you can think of to say just reinforces your own lack of insight and cleverness.
>>4038595No, it's not.Go ahead. Actually try and go through the mental exercise of what it would take to build an RPG to have try/fail mechanics in the style of an action game. If you did it honestly, you'd see how it's just absurd to think that you could make any number of trivial changes to Baldur's Gate to achieve it. RPGs are just overwhelmingly not designed that way. Even games where revival is relatively cheap, generally pretend like a wipeout is a serious thing, either a "game over" or a major penalty like a corpse recovery system.There in fact is a large category of RPGs that employ a serious try/fail design, but they don't look anything like the Dark Souls/action game design: Roguelikes. One can quickly see how the Roguelike approach is so much closer to core RPG principles than Dark Souls. In a Roguelike, "trying again" means starting over from the beginning with an entirely new character and new procedurally-generated dungeon. You don't respawn at a checkpoint to try different approach.MMORPGs had try/fail mechanics for raid bosses, but actually repetitive try/fail loops are extreme outliers of the genre. The only people doing that were the small handful of obsessives tackling the absolute cutting-edge raid content. It's not how the games are normally played.
>>4038589>Nope. I mean the gameplay is fundamentally designed to be an expression of your character build,You don't have to build to be a stealth archer. It just works.>This has been explained multiple times in the thread, and I just explained it again.Your point is dogshit and explanation sucks.>No, you can't do that. That's obtuse demonstrating you are unable to tell the difference between "games called ARPGs" that are in fact very different from each other in how they actually play.>different games play differently so I'm going to draw this crooked line on the sand to arbitrarily include what retards see as the epitome of RPGs>>4038616This why people say that it isn't an RPG unless it has shit combat.
>>4038596> Disguising your excuses for not making a proper argument with the most mean thing you can think of to say just reinforces your own lack of insight and cleverness.Not trying to hurt your feelings. Just pointing out that you’re conversing like a tedious jerk, which kills any interest in having a discussion. Hope this helps, unironically.
>>4038616>add checkpoints>game over>start over at checkpointThere
Is Mafia City an RPG?I started as a Lv1 Goon and now I'm a Lv100 Big Boss.
>>4011296I wouldn't trust a word an addict says anon
>>4011296What some of you fags sound like to me.>>4038306
>>4039665That's what you sound like to me.
>>4039739I'm not the one always talking about "muh choices and consequences".
>>4011548>This dude is way to* autistic*tooHe seems pretty based:>lives in Maine>has tenured and high-paying professorship>owns home>married>spends free time playing video games and writing about it>wife supports his video game hobby, unlike many women
>>4038661This is just cope and excuses. You can criticize me being a jerk once you spend a bare minumum amount of time reading and responding to the perfectly polite and reasonable presentation of the RPG definition. Until then, you are just a little crybaby bitch who likes to dish it but can't take it.
>>4011296This definition is a hilarious "n-no, Zelda CAN'T be an RPG, so I have to specifically define this to disclude that, but somehow still make it cover all the stuff I want to be one".
>>4046307>a-argue with me, senpaiNo.
>>4046383Exactly. You have nothing interesting, relevant or entertaining to post, only kneejerk reactions to simple stimuli, like a worm, slug or other lower life form.
>>4013304>An RPG is defined by the developer intent that the gameplay be primarily centered around moderately informed, long term, impactful choices made by the player.pic related is RPG, Comrade!
>>4046590>doesn't know what an RPG is, but really really wants to argue about it>also thinks slugs and worms have kneesYou can't make this stuff up
>>4046334Too many people just say what they want in an RPG instead of what they think define an RPG.BTW: Skyrim has stats based combat in pretty much how literally every game with combat technically has stat based combat by being a computer program with numbers and variables.
There are two types of RPG definersEither you think X-com is definitely an RPG and Mount and Blade is definitely not an RPG, or you think the reverse
>post comment in one thread>get no (yous)>post comment in another threadMany such cases
>>4047791the board takes a thousand years to get a post, can I not look for food in the second cabinet
>>4047797Have a complimentary (you) then, my behungered chum
>>4047626Nobody has refuted or put forth a better def. I leave the board for months at a time though, and have seen other people with brains arguing similar points. >>4047626No, it's not, and the reasons why have been explained. You can try and refute those explanations, but until then it's just stating a contrary and wrong position.
>>4050703Based schizo retard.
>>4011296Gameplay + Storytelling + Character Stat Development + Helping NPCs = RPGThe Legend Of Zelda is an RPG
definitionbros.. we humiliated ourselves again.. but we'll get it right next thread, i already got a new idea reading some posts here
>>4050703>Nobody has refuted or put forth a better def.Wrong.>No, it's not, and the reasons why have been explained.>Yes, controlling a single guy swinging a stick is war game mechanics because you don't even have to care about any tactics since its a power fantasy.
>>4050916The entire confusion comes from not wanting to put Skyrim into a separate category.
>>4011296the first one is wrong already
This threads been up for over a month did you guys settle on a definition yet?
>>4053053Democratic voting is irrelevant and frankly, this whole thread is irrelevant even if it decides on a definition. I am the only one who knows the definition in this thread, and I won't share it with you. Pearls before swine.
>>4053479>Democratic voting is irrelevantNobody is voting here. In fact, I go out of my way to disrupt any "democratic" consensus since most are deeply retarded.>I am the only one who knows the definition in this thread, and I won't share it with you. Pearls before swine.I already made my point long ago. It doesn't matter because people won't accept it. We are at the eternal phase of tranny denial.
>>4053053We made 0 progress and we need more time
you'd think you fags would have learned by now that you cannot win this argument
>>4053053Not quite, but role playing should not be part of the definition I suppose.
>>4054109Without roleplaying, you don’t have an RPG.
>>4054109GUYS GUYS GUYSMaybe we need to define "role-playing" first? Right? Then we can get closer to knowing what a RPG is!!
>>4054127"game" itself is the word Wittgenstein picked to illustrate non-definability, RPG Codex refugees think they can lick Wittgenstein
>>4054127>Pretend man fight other pretend man using math.There is more to it than this but we can't get pass this detail. We end up calling each other retarded while a avoid the main issue. Making definitions itself doesn't matter since there is only one thing that complicates the definition.
>>4051700>>Nobody has refuted or put forth a better def.>Wrong.Point to it.You can't.
>>4056945>>Pretend man fight other pretend man using math.>There is more to it than this butOk stfu
>>4056945>>Pretend man fight other pretend man using math.Your RPG, sire.
>>4057061>Pretend man fight other pretend man usiNOOO i mean pretend men fighting math in thats not the fictional setting of skyrumwhew that was close
>>4057008Nobody but you thinks that>>4034268>>4034262>1. Wargame-like mechanics (tactical, stat-driven combat simulation and related mechanics like stat-driven terrain traversal and hazard detection/avoidance)Skyrim somehow passes your metric 1 but Dark Souls doesn't.
>>4057008>>4057061Definitions aren't worth discussing because people are willfully in denial. Trans women aren't women.
>>4057097>>4057098Stfu gaylord
>>4057231>doesn't even deny that he believes in tranoid logic
>it's been like two months and the seething definitionlet is STILL pretending that the thread is chock full of faggots saying "umm sweety an RPG is any game that identifies as an RPG, which makes it heckin' valid, CHUD"
Tired of this Bethesda shilling Indian nigger bumping his thread. I defined what RPGs are and what roleplaying is in this thread, therefore you lost. Deal with it, jeet.
>ctrl+f "skyrim">137 matchesso this is just a seething about skyrim thread?
>>4057843Skyrim is the RPG genre. The alpha and the omega. Naturally all RPG discussion revolves around Skyrim.
>>4057843>>4057845brown hands posted this
>>4057815Wow, way to out yourself as THAT retard, retard.
>>4057756>STILL pretending that the thread is chock full of faggots saying "umm sweety an RPG is any game that identifies as an RPG, which makes it heckin' valid, CHUD">CTRL + F "definitionbros">6 results>all randomly bumping the threadThat is exactly what is happening.
It's easy to draw a line between roleplaying and not roleplaying in a movie because one is the actor and the other is the viewer. In that kind of theater the actors interact with the audience the line gets blurrier.But were do you draw the line in games?>is physically moving the character around enough or does it has to involve the personality?>do your actions must affect the course of the story or not?>do you have direct control over the character or can you only influence it from a distance?>are you limited to a character's personality or can you pick any path at any moment?And I didn't even touch on the G of RPG.
>>4058071That nice in all but nobody actually thinks Super Mario Bros is an RPG because you play as Mario. It is used as a rhetorical device to challenge some games labeled as an RPG.>>4057996I'll be honest. I don't know who he is supposed to be or who you think that he is supposed to be.
definitionbros.. i used to think defining things came easily to me but nowadays my head just starts to spin and i feel lost... like if i'm playing a role playing game, am i doing double the normal amount of playing? and where does game playing end and role playing begin? or is it a synthesis of different playings?
>>4058087Were do you draw the line?I don't think SMB is an RPG, but you need a clear definition for roleplaying in an interactive medium.
>>4058099We have tabletop games to compare.>>4034874Here the Heavy insists that he doesn't need to roll because Miss Pauling knows that he can kill the goblins. That isn't roleplaying. The Heavy is just wargaming. Roleplaying is a touchy topic since Bethesdrones act like the Heavy except with an inflated degree of self worth.
>>4058117Then compare.
So is Skyrim now a wargame or not?
>>4058141DnD, GURPS, WoD, & CoC all have Player Characters and a GM/DM/Storyteller. The Player Character has something called a character sheet which shows what is the character is good at & bad at. The GM give the player characters something to do, the player sees what his character can do then asks the GM who does some math based on the rules.
>>4058087>I'll be honest. I don't know who he is supposed to be or who you think that he is supposed to be.He's Gregz, the only White man and only Codexer posting on /vrpg/. He is very racist to us Bethesda Indians, even though we're the majority of this board.
>>4057097>Skyrim somehow passes your metric 1 but Dark Souls doesn't.Yes.The difference has heen spoonfed meticulously. If you still don't get it, you might just be retarded.
>>4062252>Yes.>The difference has heen spoonfed meticulously.Skyrim is an RPG. Quad erat demonstrandum.
>>4062264>Quad erat demonstrandumWhat does that mean?
>>4011296rpg = game where the characters level up by attacking monsters or enemies or animalsthere is usually a place where you buy better armor and weapons as the game progresseszelda, crusader of centy, landstalker, and popful mail are not rpgsthere is no leveling up in those gamesalso you play a single character in those games. in rpgs you play as multiple characters as a team. there is no team in zelda
i think the leveling up aspect is what defines an rpgif there is no leveling up it's not an rpg
indeed, character progression, i.e. leveling up is the integral part of a rpg.
>>4062649>>4063530And I'll easily crush you now.>inspired by Dororo but going all in>you have magical demon powers at start, maxed out>as you progress through your quest, you become more and more human and weaker>you choose which associated magical powers you lose (either through the character sheet or through the choices you make in the order you play through the game)voila, perfect RPG no one ever properly tried to make, and yet there's no leveling up, and there's character regression (from a mechanics perspective).
>>4063724>there's character regression (from a mechanics perspective).Bro invented a shitty game [skull emoji]
>>4063724okay, so it is only character progression, e.g. by leveling up, learning by doing or choices. having a character sheet and progressing that character sheet is a rpg.
The idea that Skyrim has wargame mechanics makes as much sense as saying that DMC has wargame mechanics.
>>4064153>It's amazing how much leftist discourse is just them pretending not to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.Skyrim uses a variety of statistics to determine what actions are allowed to a unit, and to adjudicate the results of units’ actions. These statistics derive from D&D mechanics, which derive from Chainmail, which derive from tabletop wargames.>Armor ratingThe sum of a unit’s armor, which represents the ability of armor to absorb or deflect incoming damage>Damage types, resistancesDamage can be considered physical or elemental, and is compared against a unit’s corresponding armor rating or elemental resistances to determine how much incoming damage is inflicted or ablated.>HealthThe amount of damage that a unit can absorb before being destroyed.>StaminaThe capacity to sprint or use special attacks, before it is exhausted.>MagickaThe capacity to cast magic spells, before it is exhausted.>SpeedA unit’s first derivative of position with respect to time.>Carry weightThe quantity of equipment and supplies a unit can lug about.>Critical strike chanceA random chance that an attack will do extra damage, representing an attacker making a lucky or especially skillful blow to a vulnerable location.In combat, an attacker’s offensive attributes are compared against a defender’s defensive attributes to mechanically resolve the effects of an attacker’s and render that attack into a specific numerical resolution.
>>4064171>let me list a bunch random shit that isn't necessary for RPGs, isn't exclusively in RPGs, and isn't even necessarily absent from DMC.>Health>Damage types, resistancesIn DMC>MagickaSo it is an only an RPG if it is an fantasy setting, got it.>If you don't uncritically accept my poorly argued, poorly defined, & ill-intended point, you must be aligned with evil dysgenic freaks.
>>4064216>It's amazing how much leftist discourse is just them pretending not to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.Tabletop wargames attempted to simulate the results of combat by ascribing varying numerical values to statistics representing the effectiveness and abilities of units in varying situations, and then mathematically comparing an attacker's and a defender's statistics (as well as frequently involving a random element, to represent luck and the unpredictable chaos and fog of war). These involve things like hit points, armor class (from naval wargames, an abstraction for how thick a ship's hull was w/r/t deflecting and absorbing incoming fire), hard attack, soft attack, movement range, etc. They also frequently involved experience points and levels of veterancy, to represent the edge (owing to combat experience) that crack troops had over fresh recruits, for example.Proto-RPGs, due to descending from tabletop wargames, adopted many of these statistics and mechanics for combat resolution, including experience points and 'levels'. None of these things individually are unique to RPGs or define RPGs (how could they, when they come from wargames?), but when taken together as a whole, make up what are known as 'RPG mechanics'.Skyrim, because it is an RPG, adjudicates combat in trve RPG fashion by comparing combatant's statistics to resolve the effects of attacks and actions in combat. It would be an oversimplification (much like Syrim is) to state that "Skyrim has wargame mechanics", but this could be more accurately stated as "Skyrim has RPG mechanics, which are themselves derived, and descended, from wargame mechanics".Hope this helps. You sound like an insufferable and dishonest sperg, so you're likely not worth the time and effort of another (you).
>>4062267It means he's retarded and out of his depth.
>>4064251>Tabletop wargames attempted to simulate the results of combat by ascribing varying numerical values to statistics ... example.The definition of a war game was never in question until you pretend that it applies to Skyrim in any meaningful way.>Proto-RPGs, due to descending from tabletop wargames, adopted many of these statistics and mechanics for combat resolution, including experience points and 'levels'. None of these things individually are unique to RPGs or define RPGs (how could they, when they come from wargames?), but when taken together as a whole, make up what are known as 'RPG mechanics'.So something that you wouldn't characterized an RPG yet has traits not unique to RPGs or defining an RPG but we are supposed to use said traits to arbitrarily include & exclude games.>Skyrim, because it is an RPG, adjudicates combat in trve RPG fashion by comparing combatant's statistics to resolve the effects of attacks and actions in combat.Wow a computer program maths.>It would be an oversimplification (much like Syrim is) to state that "Skyrim has wargame mechanics", but this could be more accurately stated as "Skyrim has RPG mechanics, which are themselves derived, and descended, from wargame mechanics".You are descended from a fish.
>>4064299ntaAt the core of RPGs lies the concept of *conflict resolution mechanics*, which almost always means combat, and while those mechanics can take many forms, the most common quality among those mechanics is that they are to a noticeable degree removed from pure player skill, i.e. taking the form of stats and derived stat checks. Another important part of an RPG is the existence of player choice, both in current gameplay (solving an encounter), gameplay progression (leveling up and getting new gear) and in narrative choices (c&c etc.).These two elements are ubiquitous in all of the games traditionally considered as RPGs.Without these two core elements STRONGLY ENOUGH present a game has a hard time arguing to be a true RPG.Just like including some minor action elements doesn't make a movie an action movie, including minor RPG elements doesn't make a game a proper RPG.Thus a game like Disco Elysium is not really a proper RPG since the conflict resolution mechanics are so thin and by and far it fits better into the conceptual boxes of "Create Your Own Adventure", "Point-and-Click Adventure Game" and "Visual Novel". And a game like PS:T is a True RPG since it has enough meat from both core elements and doesn't fit better into any other conceptual box.This post is where this discussion should actually /thread if this was a thread about genuinely finding out how the conceptual boxes are formed, but since it's more about baiting and shitposting, w/e. I just posted this if there are some errant souls looking for an actual honest answer.
>>40643891) I'm aware that DMC isn't an RPG; but by pressing the point, I got him to admit that Skyrim doesn't actually have wargame mechanics by having him move the goalpost to "Skyrim has RPG mechanics, which are themselves derived, and descended, from wargame mechanics" which is a recursive argument.His only argument for what is an RPG mechanic is "it is like this thing but it is not".2) Barely anyone else seems to agree with his "wargame" metric of saying that Skyrim is an RPG but not Dark Souls. I don't consider either to be RPGs. I could have chosen to pick on Dark Souls or Witcher but neither would have made the point. This is why I reject the idea that Skyrim is an outlier since people's definitions seem to hinges on whether it would or wouldn't exclude Skyrim.3) The fantasy setting of D&D has been brought up several times when it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. What is the point of bringing up these tangents? Everyone seems to be talking about they want in an RPG rather than what they think defines an RPG thus people keep adding subjective qualifiers to their definition.I'm fine with the term ARPG. The reason why people jokingly say that a good RPG should have shit combat since Action combat is what people considers good combat but it is antithetical to a good RPG experience. Noticed how many of the the early CRPGs that use Real Time Combat added things like a cooldown & stamina to attacks for the sole purpose to simulate "turns". These are the shitty compromises made to get to the halfway point but people couldn't accept the abstraction the fatigue system in Morrowind so it is removed in later games. We don't even get Attributes in Skyrim yet that doesn't cross the line since Bethesda basically dictates "the line".
>>4064251>Skyrim, because it is an RPG, adjudicates combat in trve RPG fashion by comparing combatant's statistics to resolve the effects of attacks and actions in combat. It would be an oversimplification (much like Syrim is) to state that "Skyrim has wargame mechanics", but this could be more accurately stated as "Skyrim has RPG mechanics, which are themselves derived, and descended, from wargame mechanics".You sound trapped
>>4065271How
welcome and thank you for joining the emergency meeting, definitionbros. we have an important matter to discuss today. it has come to my attention that there are some among us who define the game "disco elysium" as a RPG.. what is our response?
>>4066391It is a visual novel masquerading as a commie propaganda.
>>4064389>if this was a thread about genuinely finding out how the conceptual boxes are formed, but since it's more about baiting and shitposting, w/e>very next post in the thread ignores this and is just tangential whining that misses the point of not one, but two different postsPottery.This definition is largely correct, and close enough to be usable. I would add that the missing piece that has eluded the majority of the posts in this thread is... *drumroll* roleplaying.A central tenet of roleplaying games is roleplaying a character. The player is intended to inhabit the headspace of a character, to behave and make decisions according to that character's personality, and to act upon the imperfect information available to that character. Not out-of-character metagaming and seeking to maximize mechanical rewards and behave with optimal efficiency due to omniscience.That's where RPGs came from, the synthesis between wargaming and theatrics. Ironically, RPGs, themselves, are a hybrid genre. The grogs and the LARPing theater kids both have half of the puzzle.
>>4011296The essential part is character skill development, folowed by narrative development and player choice in outcome.But narrative develooment and player choice without character skill development is just an interactive novel, not an RPG.
>>4066391it has character progression and encounter resolution via stats as mechanics. sounds like a rpg to me.
>>4011296What is the minimum that you need to take out of an RPG to make it just an adventure game?
>>4066463and what is the minimum that you have to add to an adventure game to turn it into an RPG?
>>4064389Disco Elysium is a game made with an RPG engine, by people who didn't want to make an RPG.
>>4066412>>very next post in the thread ignores this and is just tangential whining that misses the point of not one, but two different posts>This definition is largely correct, and close enough to be usable.Not very subtle self-promotion faggot. This is no different from how Commie always act like anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology doesn't understand it. Unless they say "yes, I'm axiomatically evil." thus why people defending DE think the political alignments are well represented. >I would add that the missing piece that has eluded the majority of the posts in this thread is... *drumroll* roleplaying.>That's where RPGs came from, the synthesis between wargaming and theatrics.No, the theater kid interpretation of roleplaying is a more recent invention.>Ironically, RPGs, themselves, are a hybrid genre.It isn't. It is built on the concept of a "quest".
>>4066412No, that part isn't missing or especially relevant. To the extent it matters, it's downstream of already stipulated elements like playing from the perspective of a character on the field rather than the commander of troops. Play-acting, ERP and related foolishness isn't that important, no matter how hard you strawman metegaming munchkins.
>>4066465(Not OP)Adventure games usually lack combat simulation mechanics (or "conflict resolution" systems as another anon puts it). They also often lack much in the way of world simulation, also. In an RPG, you may find a bow and some arrows on a corpse along with a sack of coins. You can loot the corpse and do whatever you want with the weapons and money. It's just there because it makes sense to be there, maybe it helps you maybe it doesn't. In an Adventure game, the corpse and its loot is part of a puzzle. There are likely only a handful of specific, hard-coded ways to use those items to advance the story.
>>4066561That is a pretty shit answer.
>>4066569No it isn't
>>4066537>No, the theater kid interpretation of roleplaying is a more recent invention.>>4066546>No, [roleplaying] isn't missing or especially relevant. [...] Play-acting, ERP and related foolishness isn't that importantlol, lmao even>ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a world. Of course, this world is not complete. It needs organizers and adventurers to order and explore it. It needs you! A fantasy roleplaying game is an exercise in imagination and personal creativity.>ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a fantasy game of roleplaying which relies upon the imagination of participants, for it is certainly make-believe, yet it is so interesting, so challenging, so mind-unleashing that it comes near reality.>As a role player, you *become* Falstaff the fighter. You know how strong, intelligent, wise, healthy, dexterous, and, relatively speaking, how commanding a personality you have. Details as to your appearance, your body proportions, and your history can be produced by you or the Dungeon Master. You act out the game as this character, staying within your "god-given abilities", and as molded by your philosophical and moral ethics (called alignment). You interact with your fellow role players, not as Jim and Bob and Mary who work at the office together, but as Falstaff the fighter, Angore the cleric, and Filmar, the mistress of magic! The Dungeon Master will act the parts of "everyone else", and will present to you a variety of new characters to talk with, drink with, gamble with, adventure with, and often fight with! Each of you will become an artful thespian as time goes by - and you will acquire gold, magic items, and great renown as you become Falstaff the Invincible!-Advanced D&D Players Handbook, 1978, page 7
>>4064389 this is so far my only post in this thread apart from this oneI used Disco Elysium as an example since for some reasons it has become the common battlefield for shitposting about definitions and semantic wankery when it comes to CRPGs. I take part in the semantic wankery, but not in the shitposting.The elements of conflict resolution mechanics (CRM) and player choice lie so close to the heart of the answer to the meme question of "what is an RPG?" that they are shoo-ins for inclusion in the definition of an RPG, or a CRPG.So far I have not been convinced of the necessity of any other elements in the definition, most of the other candidates are either downstream from the two or are common-ish but not ubiquitous. For example CRPGs don't require the theatric performances done by players in TTRPGs.As for Disco Elysium not being a true RPG: as I mentioned in my earlier post I do not find DE to have sturdy enough CRM in it to qualify. It also somewhat lacks in the subcomponents of current gameplay and gameplay progression, but passes for narrative choices. That means it "fails" in 1⅔ of 2 components. But someone might think it passes all of the player choice parts and that the limited stat checks also pass for CRM — I personally find those arguments weak, but it's not the hill I need to die on either, especially since most of this discussion has always been pure baiting and shitposting, sprinkling in also a handful of weirdos who think DE not "earning" the title of an RPG is a personal insult to their taste and thus must be aggressively defended.Thank you for partaking in my autism, you have my love.
>>4067242to tie a bow on the whole "Disco Elysium, an RPG or not?":"You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of an RPG.">inb4 reddit because it's a SW quote
>>4067142>game of roleplaying which relies upon the imaginationBros I feel myself getting filtered.. Maybe I'm not cut out to be a cool roleplayer with fun character journeys in video games.. Perhaps some of us were born to be guide reading number uppers.. That's just the way it goes huh...
>>4067142First, we have address how the term hybrid is used in this fucking thread.1) A hybrid isn't something sharing the characteristic of two other things. A hyena isn't a hybrid of a cat & dog.2) You can't say that an ARPG is hybrid genre while defining RPGs to allow for Action elements Second, there is no pre-RPG theater kid game to hybridizes with wargames.1) Roleplaying is poorly defined because faggots like to ruin the word by defining as specifically the experience that they want.2) The concept of a "theater kid" in roleplaying isn't about people roleplaying the character but the mindset. Take Daggerheart, the "theater kid" RPG. Most of its mechanics are made for a different type of roleplay. The main one is the "Hope and Fear" dice. They create what people call meta-currencies which isn't completely new to RPGs but emblematic of the "collaborative storytelling" telos of newer games. This is part of the "Centre of the Universe" mindset of roleplaying like in Skyrim. Basically, player makes a tranny character and it is the GM's job to fabricate a story and a setting to accommodate this retarded character arc.This is why I don't talk about fucking Roleplaying.
>>4067301>yellow sun chip you can use in dire times of need>invokes a force labeled "adolf"uhh, what did they mean by this?
>>4011296Generally agree with your pic's definition but the exact wording is kinda ass. The way I like to put is "a game with branching character progression". I guess some clarification I'd add is that it has to be (to some extent!) vertical, permanent and mutually exclusive with other options.This would exclude games like Armored Core and Monster Hunter where you do not commit to a a build and can swap between completely different builds freely between missions.Theater kids with their meaningless platitudes abut roleplaying can go fuck themselves. Same goes for CYOAfaggots/VNiggers.
>>4046334>>4050916>3. Such character development must not consist solely of improvements to maximum health>increase magick/stamina capacityWhat now, nerds?
>>4068961oh damn we finna get zelda threads up in this bitch
>>4011306>it’s just a vibe broSo you actually don’t know what an RPG is. That’s fine but then say that
Too many games now for genres to work imo.It's much easier and useful to instead compare to things it's like, which I get is part of genre definitions, but there's just so much that those broad definitions no longer describe anything beyond the definition now.Like Starcraft and they are billions or Helldivers 2 and RDR2 are both RTS and TPS respectively but they are not the same thing at all.
>>4069329>Too many games now for genres to work imo.No.>It's much easier and useful to instead compare to things it's like, which I get is part of genre definitions, but there's just so much that those broad definitions no longer describe anything beyond the definition now.>the Dark Souls of XWe aren't getting a flood of games that defy description or categorization. People are just being cheeky faggots. The term RPG remaining undefined is an appeasement tactic. It isn't a niche genre name just created to express a trend. The purpose of not defining an RPG is for marketing. In theory, there is no problem with just calling Skyrim an ARPG. However, when someone asks to recommend an RPG, Skyrim would be recommended with an asterisk. Normalfags and shills hate the asterisk. These games aren't made for niche interests; it is for mass appeal. Why would describing things accurately be in their interest?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8QoRa8y_Q
>>4067301>You can't say that an ARPG is hybrid genre while defining RPGs to allow for Action elementsThere exists the set of all RPGs. Within that set, there are subsets of various subgenres (cRPGs, ARPGs, TTRPGs, etc), the elements of which are contained within the set of all RPGs. If you go back in time far enough, the set of TTRPGs was at one point equal to the set of all RPGs, and the only subset. All ARPGs are RPGs, but not all RPGs are ARPGs. >Second, there is no pre-RPG theater kid game to hybridizes with wargamesStory time, kiddo.>Braunstein is an experimental game and game genre introduced by David Wesely, a member of the Midwest Military Simulation Association, in the late 1960s. Braunstein was important and influential in the early history of role-playing games.>In 1969, David Wesely served as referee for a Napoleonic wargame set in the fictional German town of Braunstein. Wesely set up a multi-player, multi-objective game, in which he assigned individual roles for each player, including non-military roles. For example, he had players acting as town mayor, banker, and university chancellor. Nearly 20 players showed up for the game, which was more than anticipated, and each player was assigned a role in the town of Braunstein. The players were originally supposed to communicate with the referee in a separate room.>Unexpectedly, the players began using their characters to talk to one another, and traveled around the town of Braunstein. When two players unexpectedly challenged each other to a duel, Wesely found it necessary to improvise rules for the encounter on the spot. Though Wesely thought the results were chaotic and the experiment a failure, the other players enjoyed the role playing aspect and asked him to run another game.(1/3)
>>4069379>Wesely subsequently invented a new role playing scenario in which players attempt to stage or avert a coup in a small Latin American republic – the perpetually unstable nation of Banania. He and Dave Arneson, another member of the MMSA, took turns acting as the referee for repeated stagings of this scenario, which was also known as a 'Braunstein'; Arneson took over as referee after Wesely left for service in the Army.>Wesely's Braunstein drew inspiration from Diplomacy, a game requiring players to negotiate in between turns. The idea of a referee was derived from Strategos: The American Game of War (1880), by Charles Totten. Totten's book also inspired Wesely with the idea of playing with a game master who would create the scenario for the battle used in the game. Wesely discovered the idea of "n-player" strategy games from The Compleat Strategist (1954) by J.D. Williams. Wesely also read and cited as influential, Conflict and Defense: A General Theory (1962), by Kenneth E. Boulding.>Braunstein contributed to the development of role-playing games by introducing a one-to-one identification of player and character, and open-ended rules allowing the players to attempt any action, with the result of the action determined by the referee.>The role-playing game concepts Wesely introduced were further developed by Duane Jenkins in his old west "Brownstone" setting and by Dave Arneson in his Blackmoor setting and later in the Dungeons & Dragons game to which Arneson was a contributing author.>In October 1970, Wesely, who had enrolled in Army ROTC at the University of Kansas, was commissioned 2nd Lieutenant and ordered to active duty. Arneson continued to run Braunstein and invent new scenarios. Duane Jenkins, another gamer in the MMSA, created a series of "wild west Braunsteins" set in "Brownstone Texas" in which Arneson played the recurring role of a Mexican bandit leader named "El Pauncho".(2/3)
>>4069383>The "Brownstone" games introduced the concept of giving the players their own "player characters" with a history that they could develop from game to game, rather than starting over each time the game was played. In those early Braunsteins the setting was replayed with the events of the previous games having been part of the current game's history. With Brownstown, the city had been so wrecked by the players actions in the previous game they created a new city but with the same characters, thus creating the first role-playing campaign.>In 1971, Arneson developed a Braunstein set in a fantasy world called "The Northern Marches" including the "Barony of Blackmoor". For this campaign he brought together ideas from such disparate sources as The Lord of the Rings novels and the Dark Shadows horror soap opera. Arneson initially described his Blackmoor game as a "medieval Braunstein," featuring "mythical creatures.">In a 1981 interview published in Pegasus magazine, Dave Arneson described Wesely's Braunstein as a game in which each player had a "role" that they were playing. He also described his Blackmoor game as a variation of Dave Wesely's earlier Braunstein, based on Wesely's ideas about role-playing, but set in a fantasy world. Unlike the original Braunstein scenarios, the Blackmoor game and setting were meant for campaign play with an endless series of progressions. Peterson cites Arneson's Blackmoor game as being the most significant precursor to Dungeons & Dragons.(3/3)
>>4069379>>4069383>>4069384Interesting. Thanks.
>>4069379>If you go back in time far enough, the set of TTRPGs was at one point equal to the set of all RPGs, and the only subset.You don't understand the nature of what is to be a subset.>All ARPGs are RPGs, but not all RPGs are ARPGs.You can't claim ARPGs to be a hybrid AND a subset. Ask the average retard here to define an ARPG & you get a hybrid genre. Then ask the same retard to define an RPG then suddenly it becomes hard to define. It is like someone who understand the concept of a latte but doesn't understand the idea that coffee is made from coffee beans. You are confusing coffee the beverage with the substance.>Braunstein is an experimental game and game genre introduced by David Wesely, a member of the Midwest Military Simulation Association, in the late 1960s. Braunstein was important and influential in the early history of role-playing games.All you describe is an early RPG before the concept got fully formed. If anything, it sounds like Space Station 13. Combat like the fantasy setting was a means to an end in an RPG. Combat isn't baked into the definition like in a fighting game.
>>4069379It should be mentioned that in vidya RPG context the term RPG often doesn't mean *any* RPG subgenre or adjacent genre, but actually refers more or less to "pure" CRPGs. Yeah it's kinda annoying but it's just how people talk.Thus>All ARPGs are RPGs, but not all RPGs are ARPGs.is technically correct without context, but in context this is not how the term RPG is often used.These are not my opinions, just observations on how the terms and language are commonly used.also to comment on the whole historical context in these posts:>>4069379>>4069383>>4069384the role-playing aspect in single-player CRPGs can't really be expressed the same way it is in TTRPGs because it's just not viable to code in the endless possibilites you have to express yourself in TTRPGs; you have to code in all the possible ways for the players to express player choice (I for one welcome our new AI overlor- GMs I mean).With this in mind we can look to the "roleplaying" aspect and realize it's downstream from player choice, active "roleplaying" is just another form of the element of player choice.So far the core elements needed for the definition of an RPG (CRPG) still remain as:1) Conflict resolution mechanics2) Player choice (current, progression, narrative)
>>4069456>the role-playing aspect in single-player CRPGs can't really be expressed the same way it is in TTRPGs because it's just not viable to code in the endless possibilites you have to express yourself in TTRPGs; you have to code in all the possible ways for the players to express player choice (I for one welcome our new AI overlor- GMs I mean).>With this in mind we can look to the "roleplaying" aspect and realize it's downstream from player choice, active "roleplaying" is just another form of the element of player choice.Computer Roleplaying Games is a different medium for the same genre but as a different medium it comes with its own built-in limitations. see img >>4032949Why I don't count ARPG to be a different medium of the RPG genre is because Action elements are a design choice rather than a product of limitations of the medium.>But CRPGs shouldn't be forced to the limitations of TTRPG!There is no reason why we can't just use the term ARPG for RPGs with action elements since we haven't decided how much action elements a game can have before it is just an action game with RPG elements.img >>4019089 is a shit venn diagram for the type of retard that thinks "cis women" is a subcategory of woman.
There's a prominent RPG feature that has not been mentioned even once in this thread.
>>4069676
>>4069456>not my opinions, just(my)>observations on how the terms and language are commonly usedWhere?>>4069456>express yourself in TTRPGs; you have to code in all the possible ways for the players to express player choice (I for one welcome our new AI overlor- GMs I mean).What do you mean by expressing player choice, since you seem to think it requires the use of AI?
>>4069858you should really read that post again my guy
>>4069872I did and I have the same questions still, so go ahead and answer them if you're able. Otherwise stop clogging up the board.
>>4069858>Where?just...where the terms and language are commonly used you know, the internet>What...since you seem to think it requires the use of AI?You have fundamentally failed to understand what you have read if you came out of it with that impression.In other words your question is nonsensical and is based on a misunderstanding.sage because this is offtopic tardwrangling
>>4069888this post came off snarkier than I meant>>4069858so I'll try to help you:the AI part is in (brackets) because it's aside from the main point of being made and is an attempt at humour on top of thatIt's trying to convey the idea that in order to simulate the amount of freedom a GM can give to the players in a TTRPG, you'd need to have an AI GM basically coding that shit specificially for you on the fly in a CRPG.
>>4069888>>4069903>simply incapable of answeringGeez I expected more from the prestigious /vrpg/Maybe I should move on to RPG Codex and destroy those trannies for good as well.
>>4069906what kind of life experiences have made you act this way?
>>4069914Gamergate
>>4011296An RPG can be defined as>A video game which sparks endless debates about whether or not it's an RPG
>>4069960True but trite, you should be ashamed of posting it.
>>4069453>You don't understand the nature of what is to be a subset.You are wrong. It's called an "improper subset". Lern 2 math.>You can't claim ARPGs to be a hybrid AND a subsetI am not making that claim. I am stating that ARPGs are a subset of RPGs, which they are.>All you describe is an early RPG before the concept got fully formedWow, so proto-RPGs evolved into a distinct genre by mixing in play-acting and "role playing" into a wargaming framework? Hence why they're called "roleplaying games" to distinguish them from games in which roleplaying is not a key foundational element of the genre, and to emphasize that roleplaying is, in fact, the core and nominal element?I can't believe nobody brought this line of inquiry up in this thread before!
>>4069456>It should be mentioned that in vidya RPG context the term RPG often doesn't mean *any* RPG subgenre or adjacent genre, but actually refers more or less to "pure" CRPGs.Strongly disagree. I've been on the internet since the mid 90s and I've basically never seen "RPG" used to mean "cRPG". "RPG" is a broad enough umbrella term that different people mean different things by it. For example, back in the dark ages, the "RPG thread" on Something Awful's "Games" subforum was generally full of weebs discussing off-brand literally who JRPGs that no one had ever heard of. And "RPG" is tossed around so broadly that it can mean anything from normalfag console RPGs like Oblivion or Witcher 3, which pretentious cRPG snobs wouldn't dream of being lumped in with. That's why they still use the term "cRPG", as a shibboleth to distinguish themselves from the plebians. If "RPG" just meant "cRPG" there would be no point in differentiating.>the role-playing aspect in single-player CRPGs can't really be expressed the same way it is in TTRPGs because it's just not viable to code in the endless possibilites you have to express yourself in TTRPGs; you have to code in all the possible ways for the players to express player choicecRPGs were initially just solo TTRPGs, with a single player and the computer for a DM. Hence the "c" distinguishing them from what were then just called "RPGs". It's a silly strawman to argue "well you can't LITERALLY do ANYTHING you can possibly think of, therefore there can be no REAL roleplaying"
>>4070070>You are wrong. It's called an "improper subset".>"Cis" women is subset of womenWhen people start having to put what essential means real in front, you know that it is full of bullshit.>I am not making that claim. I am stating that ARPGs are a subset of RPGsIt really fucking isn't.>Wow, so proto-RPGs evolved into a distinct genre by mixing in play-acting and "role playing" into a wargaming framework?Again with the wargame shit. It is like when you retards bring up the fantasy setting when defending Skyrim as being an RPG.
>ctrl+f: "woman" or "women", 32 results, "trans" 9 resultsShut the fuck up about your disgusting fetish, troon. No one cares about your autogynephilia. You will never be a real provincia.
>>4045345He's based for playing a lot of the forgotten RPG's, some of which are hidden gems, but his opinions on a great deal of them are based around absolutely inane autism, like his hatred for level caps, dislike of fixed locations for treasure, and random encounters actually being dangerous where he has to pay attention since apparently all random encounters MUST be disposable XP farms.Shit like that makes me think he's a fucking moron who knows absolutely nothing about RPG's and what makes them fun.>This game did not facilitate my personally preferred ritual of exhaustively mapping everything, interrogating every named NPC, accumulating steadily increasing statistics, and maintaining a meaningful shopping budget until the final battle.>It sucks.Yea, go fuck yourself tard.
>>4018420Chainmail wasn't D&D by the way. That was a game he made before D&D, which had absolutely no correlation, before he stole the concepts from Dave Arneson and stapled his shitty failed wargame mechanics onto Arneson's Blackmoor campaign.
>>4070157Blackmoor used a lot of Chainmail's rules. But Braunstein's influence seems to have been what really made Blackmoor unique and different from many other wargames.
>>4070082>Strongly disagree. I've been on the internet since the mid 90s and I've basically never seen "RPG" used to mean "cRPG".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game<"Role-playing video games (RPGs), also known as computer role-playing games (CRPGs)"It's not a matter you can really disagree with, it's just an objective fact. I have no idea how you could have been around for ~30 years and "never seen" this.>It's a silly strawman to argue "well you can't LITERALLY do ANYTHING you can possibly think of, therefore there can be no REAL roleplaying"Okay. It's not the argument I'm making anyways so I don't really have anything to add here. I would have thought that mentioning the obvious fact that you can't code in endless bespoke player options would be, well, obvious. I have no idea how you managed to turn that into a controversial take in your head.
>>4070153>his hatred for level caps, dislike of fixed locations for treasure, and random encounters actually being dangerousYou make him sound based
>>4070313Here's from the same book, the chapter about Braunstein.
>>4070324You are conflating multiple terms. Let us borrow a device from the semanticists, and append subscripts for clarity:>Role-playing video games (RPG_2), also known as computer role-playing games (CRPG_1)When the term cRPG_1 came about, "RPG_1" meant tabletop pen-and-paper games, hence the 'c" denoting that it was a video game running on a computer, and not a tabletop game with human players and a human DM.Your Wikipedia quote is just saying that people nowadays generally use the term RPG_2 to refer to video games, and not their preceding tabletop roleplaying games (which are often called TTRPGs, to denote that they are not video games but tabletop pen-and-paper games). And nowadays, cRPG_2 is used to refer to a specific subgenre within the sphere of video game RPGs (because if RPG_2 already means "video game RPG", then why would it be necessary to explicate that they're video games with another modifier?)Your post stated>It should be mentioned that in vidya RPG context (RPG_2) the term RPG_2 often doesn't mean *any* RPG_2 subgenre or adjacent genre, but actually refers more or less to "pure" CRPG_2s.which is clearly referring to the cRPG_2 subgenre of RPGs (you even allude to other subgenres), and not the original context of the term from the Wikipedia quote, otherwise it's nonsensical and meaningless.
>>4070157"Roleplaying" was coined in the context of people who played chainmail. It's critical context.
>>4070440I didn't say I agreed with the definitions, I specificially said they were observations which is 100% accurate, it's just what people doLiterally the first sentence of the wiki article completely dismantles your>muh 30 yearspoint, and I get since it makes you look somewhat silly you don't like it but man, it's just how people have used the termsthis thread is specifically yet another attempt to make better definitions so that going forward the messy and inconsistent terms get nailed down to some sort of working definitions
>>4070461You made a mistake and don’t know what you are talking about. That’s okay, it happens, but now you are defensive and tripling down about it.I even helpfully laid it all out in sequential order and used numerical subscripts to make it easy for you to follow, so that you could understand. Read the previous post again.
>>4070470nta, but you booty-blasted yourself with >I've been on the internet since the mid 90s and I've basically never seen "RPG" used to mean "cRPG"You were just wrong m8
>>4070488>You were just wrong m8No. That anon was clearly wrong.In the original usage of the terms, "RPG" meant tabletop roleplaying game, and the "c" in cRPG denoted computer adaptations of tabletop "RPG"s, i.e. video games.In the modern usage of the terms, "RPG" most commonly refers to video games, which are today far more popular than tabletop roleplaying games (now frequently called "TTRPGs" to distinguish them). "cRPG" is used to denote a specific subgenre of roleplaying video games: Might and Magic, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc, not ARPGs like Skyrim.Yes "RPG" is widely used nowadays to refer to vidya. No shit.No, "RPG" is absolutely not used as a synonym for the cRPG subgenre.Look at anon's post:>It should be mentioned that in vidya RPG context the term RPG often doesn't mean *any* RPG subgenre or adjacent genre, but actually refers more or less to "pure" CRPGs.Clearly acknowledging that "RPG" is a broad term encompassing multiple subgenres, of which "cRPG" is but one. If "RPG" is just a synonym for "cRPG", then what does the "c" possibly differentiate, as opposed to just an "RPG"? What is a "pure cRPG" if not one specific subgenre within the basket of RPGs?He's flailing instead of just acknowledging that he didn't know what a term meant and where it came from.
>>4071221>"Role-playing video games (RPGs), also known as computer role-playing games (CRPGs)"You're either a petty retard who can't handle being wrong or, more likely, just shitposting. A retard either way.
>>4011296>"What IS an RPG?"
>>4011296>What IS a
>>4071342>a petty retard who can't handle being wrongAlways with the projection.>more likely, just shitpostingI’m being exceedingly patient and polite by 4chins standards, and carefully laying out the distinctions for you. I even helpfully made a post using subscripts to denote the versions of the words with different meanings, walked you through the historical context, and asked several rhetorical questions that (should) spark your thinking to help you recognize your error, so that you can understand and learn and grow.But you’re not even trying to think about what these words mean and why, you’re just blindly quoting the same one line from Wikipedia, even after I’ve repeatedly explained why you’re misusing and conflating two different meanings of the terms. Because you’re a petty retard who can’t admit he’s wrong.
>>4069456>So far the core elements needed for the definition of an RPG (CRPG) still remain as:>1) Conflict resolution mechanics>2) Player choice (current, progression, narrative)This is too broad yet we stuck arguing with retards with more basic shit.I'll move forward with my idea that all of the confusion about RPGs is from a misguided attempt to defend Skyrim and it comes in different layers.>layer 0 (nobody is really arguing against this)>Skyrim isn't an RPG because there isn't a human GM to account for all of the different creative solutions of the player.Not much need to be said here.>layer 1>Skyrim is not real Computer Roleplaying Game because it replaced tactical combat turn-based combat with (really low-bar)skill-based real-time combat.This layer is where most discussion takes place. Everyone draws a line and we poke holes in their logic.>layer 2>Skyrim's RPG elements are very superficial & rare. It is more accurate to call it an action game with RPG elements.There is a lot of people who jump here and (rightfully) diss on Skyrim quality as an RPG. It is about the spirit of being an RPG. Here is where most people discuss what is "roleplaying" which TES fans conveniently ignore the game part.
>>4011296not a bad take, but not a complete take on rpgs in general, because the absolute freedom of choice is not being discussed. Freedom of choices always escapes the set on rails narrow minds. >>4069676swallowing cum is not an rpg element, dumb whore. you've been bamboobzled by your diddler.
>>4071778>freedom of choiceDafuq is that even supposed to mean?Sandbox? Branching routes? Emergent gameplay? Red and blue dialogue options? Different quest resolutions? I've seen it used so much as meaningless marketing buzzword that I consider it a red flag now.
>>4072671freedom of choice means exactly that: freedom of choice. you can do whatever. Want to wear a shield as a mage? Go ahead. Want to wear plate armor as an archer? go ahead. reject "main" quests, farm mobs, travel whereever you want in the open world, just do whatever.
>>4072709>lack of gear restrictions>sandboxThese are two completely different things and both are horrible RPG genre qualifiers.
>>4072743>>lack of gear restrictions>>sandbox>both are horrible RPG genre qualifiers.Nta, but I would like to hear an explanation why they're horrible?
>>4072743>both are horrible RPG genre qualifiers.>I'm a narrow minded fat retardchecks out. Don't ever talk about the real definition of RPG, if you can't stand free will, you worthless retard.
>>4011296I think a good step toward reaching the future in which we know what an RPG is is killing everyone who asks that question by dipping them in acid.
>>4072762>gear restrictionRPGs are defined by not just progression but also specialization. Gear restrictions achieve exactly that. It's just another balancing tool.>sandboxAn RPG can function with any structure from linear dungeon crawler or open world sandbox to anything in-between and outside of it. >>4072778Free will is not a game mechanic.Don't ever talk about video games if you all you can bring to the table is vibes and emotionally loaded buzzwords.
>>4072762>lack of gear restrictions>sandboxBoth are good features in a RPG, but exclude too many old bad RPGs
>>4011296>make a video called "What is an RPG">talk about what you want in an RPG
>>4072839Play faggot games, get faggot prizes.
>>4072822>Free will is not a game mechanic.Absolutely it is. Player agency is king. You're simply too retarded to handle ultimate games. Not Ultima series, but the ultimate form of a game.>Don't ever talk about video gamesI guess I will, because unlike you I look forward into the future and the massive betterment of gaming.>you all you can bring to the table is vibes and emotionally loaded buzzwords.I did not. I told you why "games" like D&D and other horseshit aren't RPG's. An RPG must, by definition, let the player change the role being played in a blink of an eye, and then back. Seemlessly too. If your gaming system can't allow for that, then it is outdated/shit, because the world has moved on from that a long time ago.
>>4073336>D&D isn't, by definition, an RPGDefinitionbros, our response??? I thought we had finally pinned Skyrim down, but it looks like we forgot about the final boss of the dungeon...
>>4073339D&D should apply whenever a mage will run around with a tower shield. It also takes too long to play, in this, becomes boring sooner rather than later, unless players are free to change their "roles" ugh, during the game.
>>4073339>D&D isn't, by definition, an RPGNow we are getting dangerously based!!
>>4073336>An RPG must, by definitionWhat definition?
>>4073543A role playing game. In that, a player chooses what role to play at the moment and how.FFXIV did a bit of a step in the right direction with giving the player the ability to max out every profession and to choose which role to play. However, FFXIV is still too restrictive and bad because of it. Player should be able to change the role on the fly, at least in any "out of combat" situation. Which is technically a status/mode in MMOs. In/out of combat. There are games that do it better and in slightly different ways, but I'm not going to give all the mmos here a free ad.
>>4074467>A role playing game. In that, a player chooses what role to play at the momentStopped reading here. Roleplaying is playing a character, not “lol I can just change my class whenever I want lol”Is this thread just a retard magnet, or what?
>>4074475Evidently. You're here, frothing at the mouth, defending your made up bullshit, tear running down your retarded fat face, yes, it is a magnet.Retards are indeed unbearable: making up bullshit and dying on that hill.
>>4074496>frothing at the mouth>defending your made up bullshit>tear running down your retarded fat face,>Retards are indeed unbearable>making up bullshit and dying on that hillTurn your monitor on
>>4074467You are a dumb fucking illiterate retard.Look up a definition of the word definition.
>>4074501>>4074505simple question, dear special needs fatsos. Is it RPG whenever a game allows you to change your "class" out of combat, in between two different enemies?
>>4074505>Look up a definition of the word definition.Definition bros, trapped in recursion, please help
>>4011296Lilura solved this ages ago, please delete the thread.
>>4074507Depends. Generally no but might depend on the system and its implementation.See my take on RPG definition here >>4067566I do not consider game with ful unrestricted respeccing RPGs.
>>4074551I mostly agree with the points but it is terribly written as a definition.
>>4074575>Generally no the correct, logical answer is yes.>branching character progresslogically, as you point out yourself, it doesn't matter which exact role is being played as long as people are roleplaying a character. The overarching roleplay is a character that can learn and use anything i.e.>I do not consider game with ful unrestricted respeccing RPGs.this is not logical, simple as.
>>4079061Once again you are being an illiterate retard by getting hung up on the word "roleplay" and treating term "role-playing game" as a prescriptive definition rather than a shorthand for a common set of conventions and mechanics. And not only that but you also managed to pull the most bizarre interpretation of the concept of roleplay that has jackshit to do with 99% of RPGs.According to your schizo logic vinyl records of metal albums cannot exist.
>>4079191>According to your schizo logic vinyl records of metal albums cannot exist.the logic doesn't track here either. Of course they exist.>Once again you are being an illiterate retard by getting hung up on the word "roleplay"I don't think so. More like the definition of what play is. I don't think that behavior has to be limited by artificial narrow walls like a "class".
>>4074507What does that even mean? Give me an example of a game with this mechanic.
>>4079511Nta, try to think. There is a RPG with a mechanic like that.
>>4079511in essence, any classless "rpg".
>>4080077>any classless "rpg"....Fallout 1?Seriously, what are you talking about?
>>4080094nigger, you have the entire internet at your fingertips and you can't fucking search for>classless rpgwhat the actual fuck? plenty of pen and paper and video game classless rpgs in 2026. Because people want a better experience than narrow roles.
>>4080077>>4080100Having or not having classes is a meaningless superficial distinction, it's just one of countless potential dials and knobs that the system can have and even classes themselves can range from very narrow kit unique from other classes to just a starting point of stats allocation.Still waiting for actual examples of games where you respec on the fly.
>>4080145>Still waiting for actual examples of gamesAny actual classless RPG.>Having or not having classes is a meaningless superficial distinctionabsolutely not. people both want and love it. It depends on how the game handles the overall progression, player power, and so on.>to just a starting point of stats allocation.good games either don't have stats, implement classic d&d outdated bullshit and the stats are meaningless in modern char development, or you train stats as you go, similar to skills, the more usage/experience, the higher the number.Developers have been trying to solve the boring ass old class issue for decades now, and the solutions is a game without classes.
>>4080161GURPS was published forty years ago, so I don't see why you're still angry.
>>4080169>mom, can we have SPECIAL?>no, we have SPECIAL at home
>>4080185Fallout was actually meant to be a GURPS game, but Steve Jackson pulled the license for some reason.
>>4080194Yes. it was a “40k ripped off StarCraft” tier throwaway joke
>>4073336>I did not. I told you why "games" like D&D and other horseshit aren't RPG's. An RPG must, by definition, let the player change the role being played in a blink of an eye, and then back. Seemlessly too. If your gaming system can't allow for that, then it is outdated/shit, because the world has moved on from that a long time ago.
>>4080211thanks for quoting a stellar take. totally correct. I agree as much as ever.
>>4080169wait, so your fatass was sitting there, waiting for me to name some>gurpsin order to then tear it down? lol. lmao even. Retarded ass fatso, I have no fucking clue what gurps is. All I know now, is that you're an autistic shit eating mongoloid. Stop fighting windmills and heroically defeating strawmen.
>>4080224You can agree with wrong opinions as much as you like.
>>4080225I still have no idea what you're trying to say.
>>4080228those are facts, not an opinion.>>4080230At this point, neither do I. Nogame is a true PRG, because a player is way too limited, is the take away, I guess. Not even the games with the most freedom.
>>4080233>those are facts, not an opinion.ERRRRR, try again.
>>4080237is this from a stinky fatso cicrlejerk website? Just because some retard made up a wrong definition doesn't mean that the definition is accepted.Were people agreeing with that dumb take threads like these would have never existed in the first place.>adventure gamewrong. or everything is an adventure.>quests to gain experienceno. just no. worst dogshit ever.>battles to get xpthis makes a little more sense, but they forget training, crafting, botting, etc.>depicting a journeyjust read a book or watch a movie at this point.
>>4080241It's from Webster's dictionary.Sorry you're a fat retarded loser autist who is wrong. There are many like you who have been wrong before, and will continue to be wrong in the future. Stay wrong.
>>4080242you've been bamboozled and I suggest correcting your knowledge of definitions before you will embarrass yourself elsewhere. That cherry-picked idiocy is completely wrong, it is like arguing with iimbeciles about the definition of a word woman. There is a clear, factual definition of what role play is and what role playing game is, and it is very broad, in non way limited to that stupid d&d cultist made up bullshit.
>>4080237A reasonable descriptive, but not proscriptive, definition
>>4080161Can you stop with your vagueposting faggotry and name some actual games?>good games either don't have statsEvery single game has stats you dense fucking retard. Once again you come up with some schizophrenic emotionally loaded hyper-specific narrow interpretation of the most broad game design concept.
Why is this thread just Indian IPs talking to Indian IPs after White people already settled the debate?
>>4081197I am neither White or Indian and I already settled on a workable definition since last year.
>>4081250>I am neither White or IndianYou're a slav??
>>4081352No, a Black woman.
>>4081527Marry me.
>>4011296Any logical or reasonable definition misses the point of RPGs and cRPGs. The only real dimension required for an RPG is your ability to have mechanical guidelines, and to roleplay. The aspect that makes it an RPG and not a sports game or a shooter or a strategy game is down to the player themselves. If I play EU4, with friends, and we all agree to roleplay as rulers defined by the history of our nation and the rulers traits and ability, we have made an RPG out of EU4. Likewise, if you play a game like morrowind like Dark Souls, just minmaxing and checking the wiki to complete it as easily as possible, with a character you do not inhabit, you are not playing an RPG. Only the player's touch decides if an RPG is an RPG or not. >If you're playing DnD with autists who don't roleplay, you're no longer playing a role-playing game, you're playing Warhammer with worse combat. Is Stalker an RPG? Do YOU roleplay or not in stalker? Is Football manager an RPG? Do YOU roleplay when playing Fm? Then yeah you're playing a role-playing game. >Any further distinctions (cRPG, JRPG, ARPG etc etc) only distinguish between mechanical choices/stylistic choices. The only requirement to play a role-playing game is your ability to LARP within the game. >>>4013595>this post gets it
>>4085460Low-functioning autists who lack theory of mind (i.e. 80% of this thread) will hate this post.
>>4085511Smart, enlightened people will deride it also.Only the narcissistic midwit will fall for such a functionally irrelevant definition.
>>4085460>Only the player's touch decides if an RPG is an RPG or not.This is somehow the gayest thing said in this thread.
>>4085660Says the midwit arguing about the definition of a video game genre for the 28567th time on a dead board.How many times since this board was made has this thread been posted?
>>4085460>If I play EU4, with friends, and we all agree to roleplay as rulers defined by the history of our nation and the rulers traits and ability, we have made an RPG out of EU4.No you didn't because you didn't introduce any RPG mechanics.It is no more and no less of an RPG that it was when you just painted the map solo.RPG is a game genre. It is not an activity of engaging in roleplay while playing a game.
>>4085761>n-no uSmart people can debate wherever topic they want under whatever conditions they want. As dead as this board is, it would be even better without you and your tedious inanity.
>>4085460Aren't there RP servers for GTA where folks take it pretty seriously? I haven't played it but I saw a funny trolling video about someone getting arrested by another player.
>>4086071The only thing this thread has proven is that any mechanics-based definition of an RPG falls flat. If it feels like an RPG, and you can play it like an RPG, it's an RPG.
>>4086223>The only thing this thread has proven is that any biology-based definition of a woman falls flat. If it looks like a woman, and you can have sex with it like a woman, it's a woman.
>>4086504>t. retard who doesn't know that only women have vaginas
>>4086531NTA I'm getting annoyed at the constant gender analogies but you just completely discredited yourself. If you can't read two sentences without hallucinating words that aren't there, you have no business participating in a semantics debate of any sort.
>>4086542>if you can have sex with it like a woman, it's a womanOnly women have vaginas. One can only have sex "like with a woman" with a woman. All else is faggotry.
>>4086591>Doubling down on being wrongKill yourself. No one cares about these one-line shitposts. There is a purely mechanical definition of RPGs, unless your definition of 'mechanical" is narrow (but in that case the "non-mechanical" elements are still objective attributes).Proper analysis observes the nature of the subjective experience yielded by the systems of objective traits, then classifies based on those objective traits.Once again, not understanding the previous paragraph disqualifies you from having any worthwhile opinion on the subject at all. Odds are very high you don't get it, and this failure will be evident in your pathetic reply.
>>4086504>brings up trannies and trannysex completely unpromptedSemantics are the reason trannies are a thing. Semantics is an inherently gay discipline. Any discussion of semantics is a gay discussion.
>>4087108>Semantics are the reason trannies are a thing.>Imagine actually thinking this
>>4087083>t. faggot
>>4087124>>Semantics are the reason trannies are a thing.>>Imagine actually thinking this>Be retarded faggot>Want to get buttfucked in women's clothes>Build entire argument around a semantic difference between sex and gender in the english language>mindfuck anon so hard he can't stop posting about you on /vrpg/
>>4085660>Smart, enlightened people will deride it also.>Only the narcissistic midwit will fall for such a functionally irrelevant definition.
>>4087150>Be a retarded pedophile>Want to creep on girls in the bathrooms/changing rooms and groom boys into being eunuchs>Build entire argument around an indescribable platonic ideal of a woman >Force the entirety of society to put up your bullshit>Make anyone who pushes back look like an insufferable faggot>Pretend to have no power
>>4087108>Semantics are the reason trannies are a thing.It's the complete opposite of this.Marxists and postmodernists murdering language, aggressively blurring semantic distinctions in their rhetoric in order to advance their toxic ideologies is the reason for the effect you have observed. It's the inability to effectively understand linguistics and semantics displayed by people such as yourself enabling the subversives.Autogynephalia exists. Gender Dysphoria exists. Gay femboys exist. Intersex people exist. Proper semantic understanding of these distinctions allows for more effective classification of people and understanding of the world that actually exists. The problem is promoting semantically diluted and misleading definitions of term gender to advance a subversive ideology.It's a poor analogy for video game genres though.Sexual reproduction evolved a billion years ago, mammals evolved 300 million years ago and no mammal can change sex during its lifetime. Biological sex in mammals is stable for 4+ million human lifetimes.Video games and RPGs have only existed for less than a single human lifetime. Video games do not reproduce sexually but are synthesized arbitrarily by humans. The language to describe and classify games has evolved alongside human creativity.So properly identifying and describing the essential traits of a videogame RPG is more difficult than correctly identifying sex and gender in a mammal. Some people are stupid, and quickly give up, concluding that because it is harder to pin down, that no reasonable classification can exist at all, outside meaningless subjective whims. This laziness is fueled by the postmodern brain disease, and they attack anyone who doesn't endorse their laziness.
>>4087144>Odds are very high you don't get it, and this failure will be evident in your pathetic reply.>>4087171Wishful thinking. Fixating on the definition of roleplaying is THE midwit failure in this subject.
>>4087182Stupid people like you attacking semantic fundamentals is the reason they get away with it.
>>4087220>Stupid people like you attacking semantic fundamentals is the reason they get away with it.Bullshit. This was started because of the self-identification bullshit>A women is a person who identifies a woman.>>4085460>Only the player's touch decides if an RPG is an RPG or not.As opposed to just saying "a woman is an adult human female".
>>4087212>Fixating on the definition of roleplaying is THE midwit failure in this subjectHow many posts in this thread espousing your strawman can you quote? Zero.I can quote numerous posts correctly defining RPGs as the combination of roleplaying with wargaming mechanicsI can also quote numerous posts incorrectly defining RPGs on a purely mechanical basis while minimizing or outright denying the role of roleplaying
>>4087297>I can quote numerous posts correctly defining RPGs as the combination of roleplaying with wargaming mechanicsThat is a shameless way to refer to your own posts.
>>4087297Here:>>4087171The definition of role playing or "play-acting" is totally irrelevant. The key is playing from the perspective of the unit rather than the commander. This is a mechanical distinction, albiet reflected more in the content design and scope than what gamers typically call "mechanics." Again, more comprehensible is to say "objective traits" than "mechanics." Whether a player voluntarily engages in "play-acting" or not is irrelevant as to the classification of an RPG.But you seem to be hallucinating, too, as I haven't made arguments against Skyrim being an RPG.
>>4087312He might be misunderstanding my posts. I am the original "wargame mechanics" guy and I explicitly eschew the term "roleplaying" to avoid useless circular definitions and meandering unnecessary semantic debates over the word roleplaying itself.
>>4087335I don't agree with the wargame part of the definition but I would respect it if you hard fail Skyrim.I do agree that talking about roleplaying doesn't help. The more important part is the "game" aspect. A game has rules. Self-imposed rules aren't rules.
>>4087363>I don't agree with the wargame part of the definition but I would respect it if you hard fail Skyrim.Sorry. Can't do that. Skyrim isn't a hard fail. The question is murky for a variety of important reasons and I don't respect your obsession with it. Skyrim is a large, complex, simulation-heavy game and an objective ("mechanics-based") classification requires deep understanding of the relevant first principles as well as disciplined analytical abilities.For most people, when it comes to Skyrim, going with their gut intuition will yield better results.
>>4087327>quotes a post clearly stating that RPGs are the synthesis between roleplaying and wargaming mechanics to illustrate an example of someone saying that RPGs are only defined by roleplaying and not by wargaming mechanicsWhat did he mean by this
>>4087442Fixating on roleplaying != "RPGs are only defined by roleplaying"Another extremely careless semantic error.
>>4087171>RPGs are born from the synthesis of play-acting and wargamingNuh-uh. RPGs are a product of simulation autism that naturally lead to drastic reduction in scale from armies to characters.
>>4087208>intersex exists>gender dysphoria existsI do not dispute the obvious merit of using concise language to define terms. I'll retract my general attack on semantics, but by comparing these two concepts you prove my point about RPGs.>sexual reproduction evolved billions of years agoand yet Gender Dysphoria, as it is catalogued today, is a term entirely defined by the people who put it into use. It is a human defined, social construct, unlike for example intersex. Using semantics to distinguish the two is valuable, as one does NOT have a fluid meaning, and the other does. But video games, like gender dysphoria, use terminology that is synthesized.Said synthesized terminology, the very meaning behind these terms, can and will change. It already seems to mean 100 different things in this thread alone. Each poster's concept of an RPG is the same, and yet different. Ergo using a precisely defined set of terms to describe an RPG is useless if it's for a "scientific definition". Same as with gender identity, it will mean an entirely different thing to every person who uses the term.
>>4087800Cont:The pseud example of Plato's man fits perfectly to this thread. It's not that arguments about meaning or definition are dumb, but if the definition is just a collection of loosely defined shared traits and terms, then that isn't actually getting at the idea behind the object, which is what actually matters. If I set out to make an RPG, but break some rules like:>RPGs must have PC progression through stat increases and traitsor>RPGs must have a branching story with consequence for player actionthen it could still be an RPG in the eyes of some. These stupid games about definitions fail to grok the concept behind RPGs, which is entirely fluid and thus useless to provide a semantic definition of; it is literally role playing, playing make believe. It's fantasy. Obviously there is meaning, a lot can be gleamed about the creator's and the player's philosophy, morals and world view from playing or interacting with the genre. Try to define a genre like noir, or a thriller, or a horror movie, just by using traits associated with the genre. You'll get plenty of media that slips the cracks because these terms have been made up after the original ideas were created to post-hoc define them.
>>4087208>Also fuck you faggot for responding with a wall of text>Read my poorly written wall now
>>4087805>RPGs must have a branching story with consequence for player actionCan we stop including imaginary games presented by Todd and other bullshit salesmen into RPG dsicourse please?
>>4087429>Skyrim isn't a hard fail. The question is murky for a variety of important reasons and I don't respect your obsession with it. Skyrim is a large, complex, simulation-heavy game and an objective ("mechanics-based") classification requires deep understanding of the relevant first principles as well as disciplined analytical abilities.This is gay. Saying Skyrim is based on wargames just because of things like HP is retarded. My definition better explain why Skyrim "feels like" an RPG. I only exclude it to make a semantic point not any personal distaste.>For most people, when it comes to Skyrim, going with their gut intuition will yield better results.Most people would call you a retard for talking about wargame mechanics.
>>4087961Everyone had a general idea of what is an RPG until the 7th gen.
>>4088242>Everyone had a general idea of what is an RPG until the 7th genLamech and Enoch? What did he mean by this
>>4088021Skyrim superficially looks like an RPG not because the people who play it suddenly feel like they are playing stratego or something. It is because it has levels (counteracted by levelscaling) and all of the fantasy bullshit that people associate to RPGs. What traditional fantasy setting game that isn't an "RPG" can normalfags come up with?
>>4087800The first principle you continue to miss is that genre classifications are functional. People use them to communicate ideas to each other and make decisions. There can be multiple valid definitions, and some definitions can be better or worse than others. For example, a dead board like /vrpg/ is likely to favor using an inclusive definition when it comes to deciding what counts as "on topic," in order to maximize the chance of having a decent thread. An autist like crpgaddict doing a lets play blog on hundreds of old RPGs may quite reasonably have a more strict definition (he played Legend of Zelda, for example, but the whole whiny ordeal makes it clear he does not consider the game an RPG). Though his newest actual articulated definition is rather poor and a downgrade from his old one.>I'll retract my general attack on semanticsGreat, there would be no real point reading anything else you wrote, except that you go on to prove you didn't seem understand the point at all. >But video games [...] use terminology that is synthesized.ALL terminology is synthesized. All words shift and change meaning over time.>the ... meaning behind these terms, can and will change. There are consistent, stable and practical/functional uses of the concept and term RPG over time, by a large population of people. My aim has always been to identify, describe and evaluate the variants. By far the more important point is that new games may appear that defy prior criteria. The issue is not the evolving semantics the issue is the evolution of games themselves.>It already seems to mean 100 different things in this thread alone.If this is overwhelming for you, if you're completely unable to apply principles to evaluate ideas, don't participate.>>4087805>RPGs, which is entirely fluid and thus useless to provide a semantic definition of;Wrong.
>>4088596RPGs are one of the big main genres. What we are experiencing is the equivalent of people calling Counter-Strike a "Fighting Game" because you technically fight.
>>4088596Discussing mechanics, concepts or stories in RPGs is interesting, but seeing the same dead thread about what an RPG even is gets tiring. It rarely ends up being an interesting discussion, because it boils down to one poster giving their definition, someone replies with an exception to their rule, etc. etc.Discussing RPGs is fun, discussing mechanics and systems if fun and defining those gameplay features can be rewarding for the discussion, but this question isn't worthwhile (to me). The discussion isn't centered on talking about how features lead to better rpgs, but about what features are/aren't in different peoples definitions. >My aim has always been to identify, describe and evaluate the variants. By far the more important point is that new games may appear that defy prior criteria. >The issue is not the evolving semantics the issue is the evolution of games themselves.I entirely agree. A conversation that begins and ends with what traits you put in the broad term "RPG" is stupid. If you wanna talk about subgenres or shared design choices in games, those are actual discussions about RPGs. I just don't see the merit in defining as broad a genre as this is with a barebones structure.
>>4088700What can be discussed on /vrpg/ is limited by apathy and dedicated cliques pushing their consensus.I made my points already. You guys can continue prove my point by using the same tired thought-terminating arguments.
>>4088021>Saying Skyrim is based on wargames just because of things like HP is retarded.This is a careless, crude and incorrect way to summarize the criteria, the argument, and the game itself. No surprise you keep getting it wrong.>Most people would call you a retard for talking about wargame mechanics.Most people aren't interested in linguistics. Those people aren't listening to me in the first place. If you're arguing with me in a thread about genre definitions, you've tacitly accepted you care even if you're pretending not to or are too retarded to understand the subject at all.>>4088698Exactly.>>4088700The quality of discussion depends entirely on the quality of the posters and their ability to participate. Your style of "oh its all pointless anyway" is easily one of the most pathetic and tiresome contributions. You come dump a load of shit in a thread, then complain that the thread is full of shit.>because it boils down to one poster giving their definition, someone replies with an exception to their rule, etc. etc.That's how discussion works. You put forth a thesis then people try to poke holes in it. Sometimes, the attempts to poke holes are bad, sometimes they aren't. When replies get too lazy and retarded I just stop reading and responding. If you can't tell the difference, that's your problem.>I just don't see the merit in defining as broad a genre as this is with a barebones structure.Whether you personally see the merit or not is irrelevant to the question of whether such a definition exists. Indeed the very existence of this board and the tendency to focus on an intuitively recognizable pattern of games, suggests that there is, in fact, at least one valid definition to be found. Your retarded non-takes on the subject aren't interesting or helpful.
>>4088835>Most people aren't interested in linguistics. Those people aren't listening to me in the first place. If you're arguing with me in a thread about genre definitions, you've tacitly accepted you care even if you're pretending not to or are too retarded to understand the subject at all.I never said that I don't care. In fact, I actively mock those go with the whole porn definition of "I know it when I see it" deal. I said that the wargame stuff is stupid and passing Skyrim with the wargame criteria is dumb. What is dumber is appealing to the majority for your definition.Skyrim isn't an RPG because it didn't need to be an action game. There is nothing about it being a computer game. With an MMORPG, it kind of has to be real time otherwise everyone has be wait for each other's turns and there is too many.
>>4011296>/vrpg/ for some reason
Definitionbros... we were so close... I could almost taste it... maybe just one more bump limit thread and we'll finally be able to figure out what an RPG is...
>>4090013>Cissises... we were so close... I could almost taste it... maybe just one more bump limit thread and we'll finally be able to figure out what an woman is...
I can see the vision behind "wargame-like" criteria but it really need better wording.
>>4091525>I can see the vision behind "wargame-like" criteria but it really need better wording.The heart of that is "like D&D". The problem is that D&D isn't a wargame despite being heavily based on wargames. Wargame are supposed to be realistic simulations; D&D is not. While I like to poke fun of how little progress Elves and Dwarves make despite their extremely long lifespans, all adventures are freaks of nature regardless of race. The main thing that an RPG trying to facilitate is the idea of a "QUEST". The entire setting is trying to justify the idea that an Adventurer is a viable profession instead of joining some mercenary group. These people are supermen. The concept of AC and HP is designed for fucking ships.
>>4091730>Wargame are supposed to be realistic simulations; D&D is notD&D went into another direction for simulation and that's where we should dig at.While not realistic, it's more comprehensive with its simulation, covering the entirety of each adventurer's equipment and skill set. Also the dice roll conflict resolution that is essential to all TTRPG is basically a universal simulation mechanic, even if crude.But what also matters for RPG vidiya is how it differs from the simulation in other forms of vidiya.Having the luxury of computer's processing power, video games keep all the math under the hood and only let the player to interact with the simulated reality conjured by the game rules.RPGs, meanwhile, are centered around giving player direct access to all the stats, formulas and dice rolls, even if this makes the simulation way more gamey and unrealistic.
I may not know what an RPG is, but one thing is certain: they don’t have anything to do with roleplaying. That’s a given.
>>4092054>D&D went into another direction for simulation and that's where we should dig atSimulation really isn't the word that I would use.>While not realistic, it's more comprehensive with its simulation, covering the entirety of each adventurer's equipment and skill set. Also the dice roll conflict resolution that is essential to all TTRPG is basically a universal simulation mechanic, even if crude.My point is "wargame mechanics" is a stupid metric. At least when people say something like "meat substitute", it is trying to Vegetarian/Vegan meal that resembles a meat dish. Being derived from wargame mechanics is a fucking stupid metric. Street Fighter is a more comprehensive but unrealistic simulation of a one-on-one unarmed combat. And before you say dice rolls, the stun timer is random.Skyrim isn't even a good sandbox. Kenshi, Rim World, and Project Zomboid are better.
>>4093249>Being derived from wargame mechanics is a fucking stupid metric.There is mechanical heredity, what's stupid is just deferring to wargames rather than trying to define the actual mechanics and design principles that were passed down.>Street Fighter is a more comprehensive but unrealistic simulation of a one-on-one unarmed combatThat simulation is opaque and not directly accessible by the player. But I believe it might be possible to build an RPG from the same underlying mechanics.
>>4093613>what's stupid is just deferring to wargames rather than trying to define the actual mechanics and design principles that were passed down.No, that's not stupid. That's a succinct and convenient way to convey the ideas in a way that most people can understand. Brevity is important in an environment like this where most readers lack the attention span to read more than a few sentences before jumping to a conclusion.The few who don't get it are usually resistant for unrelated reasons. I am always prepared to go into more detail and break down what "wargame mechanics" actually means, but it's rarely necessary. Most people are too busy pushing their bad definitions (The story-branching definition, the "game where you roleplay" definition and related theater kid definition, the tabletop definition, the buildfag definition, etc) or just making inane jokes to really dispute the concept of wargame mechanics.Most of the time, when people try to break down the specific mechanics of tactical wargames, they don't get it quite right (eg reducing it to something like "stats and dice rolls").>>4091730>Wargame are supposed to be realistic simulationsNo, not necessarily. And this should be obvious from context, but in case its not, there are several classes of wargames, one of which includes realistic hardcore simulations used for real military training. It should be blatantly obvious that the topic is recreational wargames, not realistic military simulaton wargames.Recreational Wargames deliberately break down combat concepts into (often numeric) abstractions along with discrete rules and systems that players can reason about. That is one of its key features.
If anything, its D&D that goes further in the direction of a simulation than typical recreational wargames. A major role of the DM and """roleplaying""" from the players is to flesh out a more realistic simulation experience than the hard mechanical combat rules.
picture of a tabletop wargame battlefield, showing hexagon tile grid abstraction for the environment-- the same kind of tile grid you might see in an RPG.
