Which of the two RPG masterpieces with the greatest writing of all time do you prefer?Planescape: Torment or Disco Elysium?Which has the better gameplay?Will both be still fondly remembered 25 years from now?
>non-stop verbose description vs esl sci fi schlockneither of these games have good writing
Torment is a beloved cRPG classicDE is a point-and-click adventure game
>>4026296profoundly retarded
Avellone argues that the combat in PST was useful for pacing, and that DE could have used more "dungeons" that involve wandering around a space picking things up for the same reason.
>>4026424>DE could have used more "dungeons" that involve wandering around a space picking things up for the same reasonZoomers will swear up and down that it's not a point-and-click adventure game, tho
>>4026252they are literally completely different games with only commonality being elaborate dialogue
>>4026460yeah neither isometric RPG has stats, skills, quests, levelling, dicerolls, equipment ...
>>4026424avellone also said bg3 was better, lol
>>4026424Citation needed
>>4026252>Commie gobbledygook that has you wandering around talking politics with 60 clones of the same communist>>4026454That would imply an adventure. The protagonist doesn't go anywhere, do anything, or change. >>4026460It's not even elaborate. The closest thing to a long dialog tree is asking someone about your gun over, and over. There are no arguments, debates, or intricacies of the world being discussed. There is no Unbroken Cricle, there is no museum flashbacks. >>4026472137 people worked on the game. One hasbeen talking shit two decades later doesn't change shit.
>>4026296>DE is a point-and-click adventure gamePoint-and-click games at least have puzzles and require some level of critical thinking. DE spoonfeeds you constantly as you play.
>>4026484I think you're confused, avellone said he considered BG3 a better rpg than disco elysium
>Which of the two RPG masterpieces with the greatest writing of all time do you prefer?Well Disco Elysium is marxist aka materialistic dogshit, so Planescape.
>>4026252absolutely love planescape torment it rules. i played like 12 hours of disco elysium and it was unbelievably gay lol. truly hated every character and the catty faggot writing style
>>4026523I'm glad he didn't say bg3 was better than Planescape, but he's comparing two bad games at that point. Balder's Gate at least has a combat system to break up the awful writing.
https://youtu.be/OJfDgCY0ii8?t=4930>I'm also really happy when it's inspired better titles. Like when I played Disco Elysium and then Robert was saying one of the inspirations was Planescape. I'm like, "Yeah, but you did it better."
>>4026480Not she/they but this is probably the source:...actually already posted here >>4026844>>4026472Better than what? In the video above he does say that BG3 is better as an RPG but he also says that Disco Elysium "perfected what they tried to do in Planescape". At the end he also says that "Planescape was the most [him] of all [his] projects".
>>4026858better than disco elysium. that's a direct quote bro, get over it
>>4026252Torment has a few problems between combat being braindead and the game being so rather lengthy, whereas Disco's only draw is the prose and the rather excellent voice acting and music. It's hard to directly compare the two since Disco has functionally no gameplay and Torment's gameplay is for the most part superficial to the meat of the game.>>4026424This anon brings up a good point though, Torment's combat did help to pace out the social / questing elements that were more interesting and gave you more time to digest what was happening, while Disco's "dungeons" often just had a skub or two to pick up for stats or a few healing items and rarely had relevant sidequests they did help pace out the interactions so it's not basically a detective movie on steroids, though the game could have used more gameplay ala what successors tried to do with Ebb and Zero Parades.>>4026523This is honestly a fair assessment by him. The writing, setting, music, and voice acting in Disco is generally a lot better but the actual core RPG components that are closer to what BG was with character tweaking, build choices, and feedback for your character were better in BG3. I think Disco is a better game but BG3 is a better RPG
>>4026844He's just being humble.
>>4026296>DE is a bad point-and-click adventure gamefixed
>>4027209>The writing, setting, music, and voice acting in Disco is generally a lot betterStankcommies don't actually understand any of those things as they rarely interact with people that bathe, so no.> the actual core RPG components that are closer to what BG was with character tweaking, build choices, and feedback for your character were better in BG3.Yes BG3 is indeed an actual landmark game with massive amounts of tactical and gameplay advancements in the RPG space also containing three dimensions of tactical choice and not insipid nihilists moralizing at everything with a thin veneer of "irony" so they can always disavow y'know, actually standing for anything.I should go back and play Planescape though, as it was from a more enlightened time when people remembered where tieflings and assimar actually came from and treated them accordingly instead of woo cosplay horns for my leftist le different quirkmobile.
>>4027752>BG3 is indeed an actual landmark game with massive amounts of tactical and gameplay advancements in the RPG spaceIt’s really not, though. It’s a dumbed down and simplified version of DOS2 mashed together with DnD 5th edition rules which is also the most dumbed down and simplified version of DnD yet. BG3’s biggest innovations were simply having a large budget and high-quality production values to give it widespread appeal, coupled with a successful viral marketing campaign. It’s a cRPG for people who don’t like cRPGs.>also containing three dimensions of tactical choiceThe verticality was cool, granted.>and not insipid nihilists moralizing at everything with a thin veneer of "irony" so they can always disavow y'know, actually standing for anything.This describes BG3 and its developers to a tee, though.>I should go back and play Planescape thoughYou shoild. Good game.
>>4027757>dumbed down and simplified version of DOS25e might be designed for retards but its still more complex than dos2 system, as for mocap and production value im kinda baffled why people act like it was never seen before when witcher 3 has done that decade earlier.
>>4026252I don't like to call them RPGs, let alone games. They're audio-visual experiences attached to the skeleton of a game for the sake of being filed under the same category. They're a more sophisticared version of a VN.None of these have gameplay. Planescape's combat is comically bad and jarring. Disco's dice roll checks are just an annoyance.Storyfags should read books.
>>4027925>don't like to call them RPGssaar has arrivedPlanescape is one of the most RPG RPGs there is, up there with Fallout
>>4027927>Planescape is one of the most RPG RPGs there isIt sucks ass actually.
>>4027921>as for mocap and production value im kinda baffled why people act like it was never seen before when witcher 3 has done that decade earlier.Another wildly popular and successful game who brought in a ton of people who never would've read the books or played Witcher 1 (or even heard of it) in a million years. I can't think of a cRPG that got that treatment before BG3, though. Hence all the devs crying "BG3 raised the bar, we can't compete" i.e. can't match the budget.
>>4027925>I don't like to call them RPGs, let alone games. They're audio-visual experiences attached to the skeleton of a game for the sake of being filed under the same category. They're a more sophisticared version of a VN.>None of these have gameplay. Planescape's combat is comically bad and jarring.Literally the same as Baldur's Gate 1 but with more dialogue. Would you say that BG isn't an RPG, isn't a game, and doesn't have gameplay?
>>4027752>BG3 a landmark gameIt's DOS2 but scaled up and with DnD.
>>4026252i like them both a lot, i replay them once every few years when the mood hits me (done about three of disco so far and twice that of planescape) and it feels very comfy. my most replayed rpgs after vtmb. now that's a game i've truly driven into the ground
>>4028680None of the BG3 haters can explain why BG3 is supposedly worse than BG2. It's always just "ugh gay people bad, animal sex bad". No one forces you to have sex with body type A or body type B or bears. In terms of actual RPG mechanics, any non-hypocrite has to admit that BG3 beats the rest of the series easily, completely & utterly.
>>4028740I enjoyed my first run of DE but found that unfortunately it had almost zero replay value. Went commie the first time and then tried going nationalist the second but the dumb devs are so biased that they made it virtually unplayable (lol what if instead of gaining XP for dialogue options you lost morale instead lol) This was back when the game first came out, I heard they allegedly made it better with the rerelease but I was over it by then.PS:T is still fun to replay every five years or so. Classic
>>4028756>None of the BG3 haters can explain why BG3 is supposedly worse than BG2Ruleset is worseItemization is worseParty members are worsePlot is worseWriting is worseWorldbuilding is worseSense of immersion and suspension of disbelief are worsePacing is worseAuthenticity to the source material is worseBG3 is only superior in its production values, better graphics and animations and the zoomers love that it has full voice acting. And in my subjective opinion, I like turn based over RTWP.
>>4028757>I enjoyed my first run of DE but found that unfortunately it had almost zero replay value.This. Sure, I could get Kuno instead of the gay Asian [whom everyone liked just because he was voiced by a French white guy] for the last part of the game, but it's a nothingburger.Meanwhile, most people who play Planescape: Torment don't even know what they're missing out on. Since they're sheep who just accept what they're told and play with a guide, they unironically think Wizard is the best class because Intelligence has a handful of Intelligence-related speech checks (solving riddles and Wizard stuff mostly). PST lacks BG2's overpowered control spells so it's easily the IE game with the worst Wizard. Thief TNO can level faster and get faster/more attribute points, can near solo Glabrezu with rat tails, and can do a near pacifist run. Warrior TNO with the evil aligned lifeleech axe can literally solo the whole game not just Glabrezu. And both Thieves and Warriors can benefit from Wisdom just as much as Wizards do, and Wisdom is the primary +XP skill that unlocks the majority of speech options. And that's just talking gameplay class balance, not even all the small things you can miss out on and most guidecattle do.
>>4028771Last PS:T run I larped as a paladin. Lawful good fighter, high WIS and CHA, didn’t pick a single chaotic or evil option the whole game.
>>4028773it's not larping if it's in a videogame genius
>>4026252>Which has the better gameplay?Good joke
>>4028845She's partially right. Playing a "paladin" in PS:T is a larp, because you are never recognized as a paladin in-universe, nor do you get any gratitude for your actions. It is only partially recognized by the DM (the game's design) because some of the best items are locked behind Lawful Good. It's easy being good, but Lawful and Good is a tough one because lying feels so nice.
>>4028765>Ruleset is worseA minority contrarian opinion. The 2E-in-BG2 ruleset is more fun to exploit but only for some classes. It relies heavily on the majority of its players playing on one of its multitude easy difficulties (anything below Legacy of Bhaal, because even on "Core" enemies aren't using all the features they're supposed to have). You can tell if someone actually played the game with proper rules by seeing their take on monks in BG2.>Itemization is worseYeah like having overpowered bullshit that requires specific weapon types vs some weapon types (notably Longbows) having nothing and most two handed weapons being vastly inferior, which promulgated all the way in Bioware's design up to KotOR and maybe more.>Plot is worseAbsolutely not. BG2's villain is a loser Disney tier villain who gets carried by his voice work. The whole Bhaalspawn conflict gets paused for the entire duration of SoA. There are no plot twists, and you get to choose between a "good and good path" and "good but occasionally mean path", and only in one chapter do you get to side with the vampires which has no long lasting impact later. BG3 has far better gameplay-plot integration with the tadpole powers and villains who have an actual functioning plan and legitimate twists.>Writing is worseImagine "standing" (to "stand" someone means to be their fan) a fanfiction.net tier wannabe writer/former hotel manager just because...um ... old good? The dialogues of BG2 don't have the millennial writing but they're cringe nonetheless, benefiting from voice work for Irenicus and from the lack of voicework for the cringiest sections (i.e. interacting with any foid). Just because Astarion is for faggots and foids doesn't mean he doesn't make all BG2 companions look like they're from Adventures of the Gummi Bears. Every BG2 writer would agree with this and they wouldn't be humble btw.>WorldbuildingIs shit in BG2 too.>PacingIs why most BG2 runs are abandoned when you go to Candlekeep.
>>4029093>anything below Legacy of Bhaalkek nice chatbot reply, wrong on all accounts i wont even bother because im NTA but also do not care to ague with pajeetAI retard who post blatant lies
>>4029237Funny because I'm >>4028765 and I'm actually Indian. Thanks for the support tho saar.
>>4029332>I'm actually Indiankys
>>4029332ignore >>4029335, it's just some faggot pretending to be me and cause a rift between us
>>4029337Ok thank you for the heads up saar!
>>4029093BG3's main failings have more to do with the bastardification of the setting and 5E's lack of anything to do, but 2E DnD isn't much better in that regard. Another problem is the level cap not allowing for fun nonsense and cut content.>Writing and PlotBG3 has a couple of holes in the writing I think and though for the most part it's neat enough, having a dialogues and visuals ultimately leads to criticism of the writing focusing more on how well players understand and vibe with the dialogue. That said though, while I don't think the writing of BG3 is particularly bad by modern RPG standards compared to shit like "do a barv," I do feel rather strongly that the lack of anything meant to be offensive to the player and the overall simplified history of the characters and villains, save for the Dark Urge and JK Simmons, does speak to a sort of lack in writing quality and artistic coherency compared to making things easier to market. Like Shadowheart lost a lot of her angsty emo bitch energy, Lae'Zel is noticeably more cooperative and not as racist, Astarion is well regarded because he's at least an honest scamp about how much of a piece of shit he is, Wyll's boring, etc. Characters don't feel so much that they have history except for a few places
>>4026252I think there is no other game with the prose and overall story of those two, nothing comes even close which is very sad but one can't expect anything else from the perpetual adolescence hobby
>>4029093>A minority contrarian opinionAnyone who's not a fucking retard knows that 5th edition is garbage. It is literally designed for brown female homosexuals, and is explicitly and intentionally the most casual edition of DnD ever, aimed at people who don't like DnD. Second edition was the last real edition of DnD based around roleplaying rather than being a pathetic munchkin.>Legacy of BhaalCongratulations on immediately outing yourself as a secondary who hasn't even played the game we're talking about.>Yeah like having overpowered bullshit that requires specific weapon typesOne, there's nothing wrong with rewarding focus and specialization. It's part of roleplaying. Two, BG2 has memorable items that players build around, like the Holy Avenger, Celestial Fury, Crom Faeyr, etc. BG3 has MMO-tier sets of slop like "build up 10 charges to unleash a yogurt cannon blast", it's all complete garbage. There was nothing iconic or memorable in the entire game.>BG3 has far better gameplay-plot integration with the tadpole powersIt absolutely does not. The game doesn't even recognize or acknowledge if you completely reject the tadpoles, for example. The devs just assume you'd dude tadpolemaxxbro just because you can.>The dialogues of BG2 don't have the millennial writingCorrect, which is why BG3's writing is worse. It's full of immersion-breaking cringe and Marvel-tier garbage.>Is why most BG2 runs are abandoned when you go to CandlekeepAgain outing yourself as a secondary who hasn't even played the game. And the vast majority of BG3 players never make it out of act 1, which is the only part of the game that was polished and complete.
>>4029437>cut contentThey fucked up bad here. Pretty much all RPGs have significant cut content, it happens, just be honest about it. Larian lied about it, doubled down on the lies and then didn't try to fix it (as they did with DOS2's shitty act 4 at launch) which burned a lot of goodwill towards the devs for many people>BG3 has a couple of holes in the writing [...] a sort of lack in writing quality and artistic coherencyThe game suffered badly for all the rewrites as it went through EA. Like initially Raphael offered you tadpole removal in exchange for giving him the tadpole, then that hook was removed and he's just sitting there doing nothing for all of acts 1 and 2. Or their initial idea for Daisy, the dream visitor, was probably the only clever thing Larian has ever come up with, and they rewrote it into the completely retarded "YOU NEED A GUARDIAN" right before release. Everything about the Emperor was so colossally stupid and obvious that you were practically expecting there to be some, ANY kind of twist and the only twist was that he was a faggot and also Balduran>Shadowheart lost a lot of her angsty emo bitch energy, Lae'Zel is noticeably more cooperative and not as racist, Astarion is well regarded because he's at least an honest scamp about how much of a piece of shit he is, Wyll's boring, etcAll of the characters were rewritten sometime between EA and release, as you noted. Initially players complained that the entire roster was evil edgy cunts (save maybe Gale as the lone neutral) and Larian went "uhhhh we had to frontload all the evil party members because it's the only way to get players to playtest them. There's totally a full good-aligned roster in another castle" and then rewrote all of them into focus-group-approved playersexual milquetoast shit. Wyll in particular at least had an almost interesting idea before just becoming JUST A REALLY HEROIC AND NOBLE DUDE WHO SOLD HIS SOUL TO A DEVIL FOR TOTALLY A GOOD REASON HAHA
I hate the BG3 characters
>>4030008Yeah, I do agree with this. Endless EA meant they had a ton of rewrites and cut content leading to a lot of incoherent nonsense and stuff like tadpole superpowers and no urgency with the tadpoles. Ultimately, it's more a problem that the EA released too early and was clearly a better expression of the soul behind the game compared to the full release. Hard to really say, the EA was lacking in content but mechanically and in terms of writing and hidden interactions it felt perfect. It happens though, maybe I just have rose-tinted glasses.
>>4026606why did you delete your post girl?
>>4030002>Anyone who's not a fucking retard knows that 5th edition is garbage.And? I never said 5th edition is good. Your next cope?>Congratulations on immediately outing yourself as a secondaryImagine being so Indian that you think you can pull your usual shitpost tactic off while quoting my post that explicitly confirm I played it more than you. Ironically, it's true that I never played the game that has "Legacy of Bhaal" difficulty, but it is officially the hardest difficulty in the game and the Enhanced Edition is as official as it gets because Beamdog is a spiritual successor to BioWare (blessed by your Hindu god, Gaider) in every sense of the word and every folx who worked on the original BG games loves the changes they made to it.>One, there's nothing wrong with rewarding focus and specialization.And here starts the Hindu self-humiliation carousel. He doesn't even know that two-handed weapons are all felted shit and just name drops his "AI saar what are the legendar-- ACK weaponsaar". I bet you're the same brownoid who seethes at any mention of SCS+Ascension being the actual mods you need to get to make BG2's shitty implementation of 2E playable.>There was nothing iconic or memorable in the entire game.Translation:>"MOOOM! I need my super special weapons because I am a special brown boy!"Here you go - you can't play games without guides anyway:https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps5/397566-baldurs-gate-3/faqs/81142/items#unique-weaponsIf BG2 had a "Cape of Neegerkoksukin" that let the player change its 2D sprite (very easy thing to do in the code btw), all the BioWhores would be losing their mind and basedfacing over it.>It absolutely does not.Cope.>The game doesn't even recognize or acknowledge if you completely reject the tadpolesAnd using Slayer just drains your reputation a tiny bit. While there are no rewards for not putting worms in your head (which I never did btw) the tadpole thing alone is gameplay-story integration at its finest.
>>4030002>Correct, which is why BG3's writing is worse.Your brown opinion is irrelevant; you don't know what good writing is. You think BG2 and Skyrim has good writing. David Gaider, your god himself, worships BG3's writing. Every terrible companion can find an easily much worse comparison in BG2. The main plotline beats BG2's by miles.>AAAA I AM AN INCEL CHUD ELF, the world must die because women owe me sexA pathetic loser villain carried by David Warner's performance and "the even better Polish dub". I don't even know what the gay Turk's motivation was except "I was poor" and even that makes him a better written character than Irenicus. >Again outing yourself as a secondary who hasn't even played the game.Wrong, I did that as a smart saar trap because I knew you would immediately jump on it like the brown turd you are. Yes, it is actually BG1 runs that are abandoned in Candlekeep by the majority of players. But I'm being nice to it since it wasn't supposed to be an RPG to begin with. I myself dropped it at Candlekeep and never tried playing it again.
