>>4064463
I finished the game at 194hours.
Both are kinda mid, BG1 has better balance and level design, but BG2 has better characters and story.

Both didn't age well, the duology of Fallout is better.
Baldur's Gate 2 isn't even the best RPG of its year, not even the 2nd best. Very overrated.

>>4064472
Thank you for your service.

>>4064472
>Baldur's Gate 2 isn't even the best RPG of its year, not even the 2nd best. Very overrated.
Which is it then?

>>4064463
>How many hours have you put into BG2?
easily over 2,000+ hours spread across 20+ years
>Do you prefer it to BG1?
only slightly
I prefer the low-level wilderness atmosphere of BG1 compared to high level city adventure BG2
if BG2 had a collection of rural maps before the major side quest areas, then it would be better than BG1, hands down

>>4064463
BG2 is vaaaaaaastly better than BG1.
BG2EE is the definitive version because it addresses all kind of technical issues on modern machines. It's ok if you don't like the companions the Enhanced Edition introduces, they're absolutely completely optional and I don't think they're particularly bad anyway.
There are many many mods for BG2EE, and I recommend Spell Revisions at the very least.

Finished both (+DLCs) a couple weeks ago. Vastly prefer BG1 though, for a lot of reasons. Chapter 2 in BG2 is everything wrong with the game, plus the story outside of the last chapter or so is so weak.

Drag to play; BG1 mechanically is inferior in a lot of ways, but from start to finish it is a great adventure.

>>4064463
When I played it around 2002), we didn't have hour counters, kids.
And yeah, BG2 had the romances and high level bling and involving protagonist story, and dual wield, but I feel biggest nostalgia for the old one. Also Beamdog fucked up the "enhanced" edition badly.

>>4064659
I feel similarly about it. Having a town map with 6 location and then stuffing all quests into it, so that you basically know that every house = quest (and if not, it's a cut quest), was a bit meh. I still loved it but that was a letdown.
For that reason, I can't hate the initial dungeon. At least it's a sprawling area with stuff.

>>4064463
>How many hours have you put into BG2?
A lot. I've played through the game a bunch of times, including some multi-player campaigns with friends.
>Do you prefer it to BG1?
I sort of get why some people feel otherwise, but I think BG2 was a big step up from the first game. I played through BG1 once and have never felt like revisiting it. I also liked Icewind Dale more than BG1, for that matter.

>>4064663
>BG2EE is the definitive version because it addresses all kind of technical issues on modern machines.
You can get the GOG versions working on a modern machine in minutes, in 16:9 aspect ratio resolution of your choice. The EEs add new bugs to the original games because Beamdog is incompetent, they add a bunch of stupid new magic items for no reason, and they add extremely cringe new companions.
BG1 in particular suffers from being shoehorned into the BG2 engine, since it was never balanced for kits or weapon styles, and the BG2 engine changes the way many spells and items work.
>It's ok if you don't like the companions the Enhanced Edition introduces, they're absolutely completely optional and I don't think they're particularly bad anyway.
Disagree.

Beamdog is based, I would have never have played these if not for them. They’ve gotten like fifteen years of undeserved hate because of pol schizos

>>4064463
I don't remember if it was BG1 or 2 but me and my friends put in an ungodly amount of hours trying to set up multiplayer before we gave up, long long time ago. It was a buggy mess and a subpar experience multiplayer experience once you got it running.

>>4065123
>subpar multiplayer experience
When "You think you want it, but you don't" rings true

>>4065131
>Only one person can see the dialogue, but game pauses for everyone
I don't know, I think there are a lot of things that could just work better

>>4065145
Maybe could, I'm no programmer. Buuut I don't think Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 on the whole makes for a good multiplayer experience. That doesn't filter 90% of friends.

>>4065158
The multiplayer mode works great. Assign control of all the slots to yourself and roll a custom party then copy the save to the single player folder, boom.

Once I started playing a fighter/mage in this game I can't go back to anything else. Whether it's a berserker mage dual or a fighter/mage multi. Anyone else like this? Spellcasting makes the game more interesting plus you get to bash skulls in. And arcane spellcasting is way better than divine spellcasting. I tried fighter/cleric and fighter/druid but abandoned those playthroughs mid-way realizing I'd rather just be a fighter/mage.

>>4064818
>nuh uh!
nope

>>4065131
I've played it multiplayer but it's a very different experience than playing it single-player. The real-time-with-pause behavior of the combat engine makes it extremely difficult without a group of people who are very very dedicated to the game.

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Just finished replaying BG1 (first time was in late 2000s) and damn this game is ass.
>maps are either copypasted forests where you spend most of the time clearing fog of war or claustrophobic mazes not suited for your party size
>pathfinding is retarded which is really annoying considering importance of positioning, your retards can't even hold formation when walking through an open field
>even on second playthrough planning proper party composition is a pain in the ass considering how many niggas only show up in the city
>most spells are just casually saved against by anything that warrants using them
>dogshit vancian magic system combined with absolute yee yee ass spell roster mostly consisting of shitty buffs you're supposed to stack in obscene amounts BEFORE combat
>respawning enemies and random encounters on the road wasting your time
>80% of combat is just whiffing autoattacks
>all the math that matters is hidden from you
>busted ass retarded fake real time with "turns" and "rounds"
>whenever traps are involved you're better off savescumming thanks to retarded cooldown, Durlag's tower is particularly obnoxious with its trap spam
>the absolute AIDS of Baldur's Gate's layout
>retarded reputation system
I wonder If I'm gonna have patience to play through BG2 this time, on both of my previous attempts I dropped shortly after leaving Irenicus's rape dungeon.

>>4066438
>your retards can't even hold formation when walking through an open field
Oh man if even only this was corrected it would be such an improvement. Too much of the game is babysitting.

>>4066438
>all the math that matters is hidden from you
Stopped reading here

>>4065428
What does it matter when you have a 6 man party? Main character could be any class and you'd still have enough micromanaging.

>>4064472
When BG2 came out, it was amazing due to the sheer scale and graphics. Such RPGs haven't come out often.

But sure, it's only something that you do 1-2 times. D&D is just not great for roleplaying.

>>4064463
Like 600, bg1 is kinda nice if you wanna turn off your brain and just get through it imo but bg2 has the actually good gameplay, desu modding it is half the fun to me I must've installed it over 10 times in the last 6 years

>>4065107
All Beamcuck did was get the license then strongarm the community into making unofficial patches "official"

>>4064463
Zero. I have watched 100 hours worth of retrospectives, reviews and other shit about it though! I have wanted to actually play it for a while but the BG1 seems so boring, and it is kinda cheating starting with 2.

>>4067919
>spoiled entire game before even playing it
zoomers really have a brain rot

>>4067952
I mean why not, the gameplay is shit so he saved himself the hassle of slogging through a mediocre crpg.

>>4067967
>gameplay is shit
you are clueless and should stick to watching youtube instead of discussing something you have absolutely no idea about

>>4067967
>>4064472

Since yall are saying BG sucks, what do you actually recommend instead for old school RPGs? And I've played Fallout 1, it was pretty good.

>>4067919
>Zero. I have watched 100 hours worth of retrospectives, reviews and other shit about it though!
This isn't believable

The problem with anonymous forums, everyone can just make up shit

>>4069789
dude people are bored and I, too, sometimes catch myself watching long ass videos about games that I actually should play instead of vicariously and lazily watch someone else play it (and spoil it) for me.

>>4069803
Wow really that's crazy haha

>>4069783
These guys are faggots, praising Fallout which has much shittier and boring gameplay than BG1 and 2, especially with the SCS mod installed.

>>4069995
Correct opinion alert
I can accept saying Arcanum and Divinity and shit is better, but anyone saying Fallout is better is a straight up liar

>>4069995
>>4070065
So Enhanced Edition vs the originals, what do you recommend?

>>4070262
The enhanced editions are garbage. Added new bugs, awful new companions, needless magic items, and fucked up the game rules by cramming the first game into the second game’s engine, which changes the way items and spells work, and imbalances it by adding class kits and weapon styles that were never in the first game.

>>4070424
it also removed original art like sounds, sprites, loading screens and all the fucking animated scenes FFS
Incredible fuckery from the stupid company that did the PoS edition.

I dropped the first game after Imoen called me a queer.

>>4069783
Avernum

>>4071515
>anon dropped the game because the main romance option flirted with him
You can’t make this stuff up

>>4071515
you sound like one.

Can BG2 please fuck off and stop interrupting me with dream cutscenes, companions' small talk and quest NPC jumping me in the middle of a street. There are even random encounters in the city now, what the fuck.

>>4072656
>There are even random encounters in the city now, what the fuck.
They're not actually random. They only trigger once each.

Both expansions are kinda meh.

>>4071515
devs were being cute with that line. despite everyone and their mother knowing what a queer was in the 90's, they still opt'd to use the old definition to describe something that is "weird, odd or peculiar", which had fallen out of use by the end of the 1800's.

>>4074435
Bradbury used it in Fahrenheit 451 in 1953

>>4074447
he/they knew what a queer was in 53, too.

>>4074435
What world do you live in. Queer is still used for peculiar today. Now gay has fallen out of use.

>>4071515
Should have told her a story about trollops and plugtails, queer fellow.

>>4064463
not enough and yes because better spells and levels but bg1 story was great as well, also more exploration availability.

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>>4064463
Also played the original so you can add a couple hundred hours probably

>>4064612
companies have bots now. it just wants you to buy and play BG3.

>>4064612
IWD, JA2 and Dude Sex, if we accept pseudo-RPGs.

>>4109630
>IWD, JA2 and Dude Sex
Everyone I know who played BG2 back in the day played and liked these too, and everyone I know who played these back in the day played and liked BG2 too

>>4064463
are there any speech checks in BG1?

>>4109668
Not really. NPCs do have an unfavorable, neutral, or friendly reaction to you based on your reputation and charisma, but it doesn’t really change much and I can’t think off the top of my head of anything in particular you can get locked out of
There’s a paladin in the city who will “detect evil” your party and either attack or let you pass

>>4070262

Baldur's Gate 1: play the original, do not play EE. This is because EE adds classes and mechanics that BG1 was not designed for. which ruins the experience of playing the game.

Baldur's Gate 2: play EE, not the original. despite what people on this board may say. EE only stabilises and improves QOL for BG2. the gameplay experience of the original is completely preserved. the only appreciable difference is the new characters, who you can simply ignore - don't speak to them or recruit them, it's fine.

BG2 is incredible by the way.. it's THE best CRPG ever made.

>>4109677
You get better quest rewards for having a good boy reputation + party leader with high Charisma. Also, some quests are only available to good boys and some only to bad boys.

>>4109696
>EE only stabilises and improves QOL for BG2. the gameplay experience of the original is completely preserved. the only appreciable difference is the new characters, who you can simply ignore
It also adds dumb bugs that didn’t exist before, and dumb new magical items too. The shitty new NPCs alone are enough of a dealbreaker.

>>4109740
>It also adds dumb bugs that didn’t exist before, and dumb new magical items too.
Any examples where actual gameplay is affected?

>dumb new magical items
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/New_items_in_Baldur%27s_Gate_II:_Enhanced_Edition
As I understand from that article the items in question can only be obtained if you bother with their new companions and its a common sentiment on this board to avoid them like the plague.
But I'm still interested if there are any bugs left after more than 10 years since release, because I don't think I encountered any in my last playthrough.

>>4064463
a couple. I had fun and I'll play it again if I can stop playing the dark savant trilogy

>>4109696
>the only appreciable difference is the new characters, who you can simply ignore - don't speak to them or recruit them, it's fine.
They are intrusive enough to warrant modding them out.

>>4109765
Summoned elementals having brain damage is one new bug I'm aware of and encountered in my game.

>>4109696
>Baldur's Gate 1: play the original, do not play EE. This is because EE adds classes and mechanics that BG1 was not designed for. which ruins the experience of playing the game.
also the company "remastering" it threw away lots of art assets from the game, loading screen art, menu art, ALL MOVIE CUTSENES

>>4064463
261 hours, never finished the game, always get exhaustion with it by the time I start Chapter 5. Never even touched ToB. I'm not joking when I say it has too much content. I feel tired thinking about playing it again and trying to push through.

BG1 is exhausting for a different reason. It's a lawn mowing simulator until getting to Baldur's Gate, and then the game immediately changes its priorities. Hidden artificial timers diminish the ability to explore the Sword Coast. Numerous party members without any real character to them means there's no reason to not create your own party from the start. The entire final act of BG1 is an angry GM pissed off at you for some inexplicable reason. The biggest strategy of BG1 is Web/Stinking Cloud, ranged weapons, and the Rest button. Then again, BG2's biggest strategy is Sequencer, Haste, Time Stop, and Greater Whirlwind abuse.

They're dogshit for different reasons. I love them.

>>4114823
>Hidden artificial timers diminish the ability to explore the Sword Coast.
I can’t think of a single one off the top of my head except the geas quest (admittedly lame)
>Numerous party members without any real character to them means there's no reason to not create your own party from the start.
Thats a feature not a bug, unironically

>>4114825
I can think of two instances off the top of my head. The first is that Jaheira, Khalid, Mortaron, and Xzar will leave your party and cannot be found in-game again if you take too long getting to Nashkel. The second is that the elf ranger, whose name I cannot recall at this time, will leave your party if you take too long getting into Cloakwood, which is Chapter 5. That character can be recruited into your party in Chapter 2.

>>4114823
>261 hours, never finished the game, always get exhaustion with it by the time I start Chapter 5. Never even touched ToB.
>Greater Whirlwind abuse.
Some completionist shit right there

>>4071523
Man. I like Avernum just as much as the next guy, but it's not really a showstopper.

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>>4114837
Everyone I talk to about my shituation says that the game gets easier once HLAs are available because of stuff like Whirlwind. I haven't had an opportunity to try it. I don't know if I will ever get around to it, either.

>>4109745
Power creep is too much. The game is easy enough. There's no reason you need to have access to so many god-tier items in the 1st chapter.

>>4114843
>game gives you 4 potions of thievery and access to fences right from the start
>you can literally buy everything from dierdra, ribald, and jovul before doing anything in ch. 2
>"Power creep [in EE] is too much."

>>4114842
>Everyone I talk to about my shituation says that the game gets easier once HLAs are available because of stuff like Whirlwind.
What is your "shituation"?

>>4114849
I get burnout after leaving the Underdark, leave for 3-6 months, then come back and go, "What the hell was I doing? Oh, my journal has THAT many open quests? Fuck this, I better just restart..."

>>4114850
And everybody responds to that with "the game gets easier once HLAs are available because of stuff like Whirlwind"?

>>4114853
Yes, all two of them.

>>4114850
You should do all the quests prior to the Underdark.

>>4114857
Even killing Firkraag for Carsomyr??

>>4114857
If you do that Imoen will be behind in XP though. I didn't even do every quest there is last run and she was several hundred thousands XP behind because the initial recruiting boost only goes up to 1250000.

>>4064463
i've played it several times over the years. i beat the main campaign once, never beat tob, usually i burn out around irenicus's manor. classic rpg of my life time period.

>>4114975
1. Save a ton of scrolls for her to read
2. Open up Shadowkeeper, sum your party’s XP together, then divide it equally

>>4114986
Literally me, lol. I usually burn out at the elven tree city.

>>4114975
>Imoen will be behind in XP
Non-issue, all you need for her to be is a trap whore. Your other 5 companions can carry the weight because, if you took Yoshimo to Spellhold, you are already used to having a trap whore fill up a slot in your party. The worst thing you can do for your game's pacing is starting Chapter 5 and going back to Athkatla to do the Copper Coronet slave quest.

>>4115097
>implying anyone would ever use Yoshimo

>>4115102
His heart is worth 200,000 xp and he's a guilt-free swap for Imoen. I take him despite knowing the plot.

>>4115102
He is the only single class Thief in this game. Even if unnecessary they still bring some utility beyond mere trap disarming and lock picking. Detect illusion basically saves you from having to cast True Sight against all these lame mages with Mislead.

>>4115117
Set Special Snare is also a solution to quite a handful of problems throughout ch. 2, too. He's not my favorite character, not by a long shot, but he's very useful throughout. Who else am I going to use as my party's thief? Nalia? Jan??

All the world is blind to our passing
T. my best bro Yoshimo

>there're scum itt who don't release keldorn from their service to go home and be a family man

>>4115116
>His heart is worth 200,000 xp
“Face it: You’re Actually Neutral Evil” from the IWD2 adventurer’s guide

>>4115127
>Who else am I going to use as my party's thief? Nalia? Jan??
Yea, I always did Jan, or Nalia -> Imoen

>>4115144
He specifically begs for Ilmater to preserve him before he does what his geas compels him to do in Spellhold. You taking his heart to the Temple of Ilmater so the priest there can save Yoshimo's soul is an objectively good action, with the priest praising Yoshimo for enduring his suffering.

>>4115127
Jan is a great addition to most parties and his only real flaw is the cringe dialogue.

why are there three (3) mage/thief party members in bg2

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>>4115154
Turnip hating scum

For me? It's Neutral Evil Human Assassin 21 / Fighter 30.

>>4115149
> He specifically begs for Ilmater to preserve him before he does what his geas compels him to do in Spellhold. You taking his heart to the Temple of Ilmater so the priest there can save Yoshimo's soul is an objectively good action, with the priest praising Yoshimo for enduring his suffering.
You’re not doing it because you give a shit about any of that, you’re metagaming it so you can get a chunk of XP out of it.

>>4115229
I'm lawful good, blow it out your ass.

Today I learned to assign the script so that my assassin automaticslly enters stealth at all times. So much better for gameplay, always ready for that stealth strike.

>>4115230
>I'm lawful good, blow it out your ass.
You already explicitly stated your motivation: to gain XP. You made no mention of his suffering or his soul until you were called out.
Would you still take him if instead of being mechanically rewarded with a valuable resource, your main character lost 200k XP, or lost permanent stat points, etc, “because it’s the right thing to do?” Doubtful.
>I'm lawful good, blow it out your ass.
lol, lmao even

>"everyone but me on 4chan is the same person"
Schizo behavior. I'm not going to reduce myself to your level.

>>4115251
>"everyone but me on 4chan is the same person"
If you weren’t that anon, you wouldn’t have felt offended by me calling him neutral evil, and you wouldn’t have responded with “I’m lawful good, blow it out your ass”.
Like I said: face it, you’re actually neutral evil. Many such cases.

okay but seriously how the fuck am i supposed to understand dual classing intuitively

>>4115584
It's a feature that's so dumb it's almost annoying.
Actually I got annoyed thinking about how poorly it was implemented. Meta gamiest shit ever. Should have never been in the game.

>>4115584
You really aren't, which is why people still argue about which level is optimal to dual-class, and which classes it's okay to dual into and out of. I understand it mechanically, and I understand the principle behind it, but it's such a hostile feature for the average person it's a wonder why it existed in the rulebook in the first place.

>>4115608
>>4115620
>if you wanna dual you gotta get your second class 1 level over your last class
"right"
>and to dual in the first place you need minimums in certain stats
"right"
>and the point of dualing is so you can use a class kit from one class for cool combos
"right"
>so all you gotta do is check the experience tables, check each class' level up tables, check each kit's level up benefits, check each class' restrictions, make sure you allocate your proficiency bonuses correctly or else you softlock the game, and also remember that if you take too long to dual class you won't be activating your first class again until the final boss fight of tob, provided you noticed each class levels up at different rates and you weren't stupid enough to dual out of fighter at level 24's 4mil xp because it's "halfway" to the 8mil xp cap into mage because mage can only get to level 20 with the remaining 4mil xp
"what"

>>4115245
You're talking to two different people. I'm the original xpfag and I'm Chaotic Good at best.

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So is the trick to do two-weapon fighting and use daggers?

>>4115691
Bows are the play if you're powergaming. But you're picking Wizard Slayer so you're already going full RP.

>>4115691
wizard slayer will never not be funny to me when berserker and barbarian can get immunities to both arcane and divine magic and 1-shot casters

>>4115691
A good idea. Weapon speed is an overlooked stat I think.

>>4115700
Let's not forget the inquisitor which destroys mages

>>4115718
I had that keldorn guy for one fight where he failed to dispel the enemy but succesfully dispelled my main guys stoneskin who then got skinned alive and game overed. Bye bye, keldorn, I hardly knew ya.

>>4115736
I hope that whatever's going on in your life that makes you this desperate for attention gets resolved in your favor soon.

>>4115760
What's this outburst then? You replying to a wrong post?

>>4115770
Praying for you right now, li'l bro.

>>4115772
Well... Thank you for the prayers

>>4115620
>it's such a hostile feature for the average person it's a wonder why it existed in the rulebook in the first place
Welcome to D&D. Shit like this gradually got less retarded over time, but certain elements persisted all the way into 3rd edition, including things like feats that were intentionally designed to be bad just to punish players who picked them without doing the maths.

>>4115785
>3e
I remember. CoDzilla. Pun Pun. Illithid Savant. Beholder Mage. Inspector Gadget. Batman Wizard. Thrallherd. Librarian Archivist. It's why it's hard to fault 5e mechanically. I can understand the hatred for 5e's culture, but hating 5e's mechanics is something I haven't been able to wrap my head around.

>>4115785
>including things like feats that were intentionally designed to be bad just to punish players who picked them without doing the maths
Name three.

>>4115796
1. Toughness is the most iconic one. Seems decent early on when you have jack shit for HP, especially if you're playing something like an elf wizard, but in reality is one of the most useless feats in the game.
2. Overly specific stuff like Weapon Specialization and similar feats (including, arguably, the entire Ranger class with its favored enemy nonsense) is infamous for its "either the DM specifically caters to your character, or you just wasted a feat" effect.
3. Almost anything related to two-weapon fighting is infamously bad math in 3e.

I could also go into class and race mechanics which heavily punished you for making certain choices (like fucking ECL). Ironically, the famous Drizzt archetype was literally one of the worst possible characters you could make in 3e, because he's a Drow (shit racial ECL) Ranger (shit class features) who dual wields (shit damage output).

>>4110685
they also cut EAX out for some retarded, inexplicable reason

>>4115794
>I can understand the hatred for 5e's culture, but hating 5e's mechanics is something I haven't been able to wrap my head around
Imo, some of its design choices are somewhat sympathetic reactions to the number bloat of 3rd ed (like trying to reduce the number of magical items and the +1/+2/+3 etc treadmill), and to simplify the math at the tabletop to make play quicker, but so much of it is just incredibly stupid
One, "bounded accuracy" inherently increases relatively the variance of the dice, and decreases relatively the ability of the player to influence the outcome. Leads to feeling swingy and random which isn't a good feeling
Two, advantage and disadvantage are insanely huge since they square the probabilities involved, which is far more than the player stacking a couple +1s
Three, the default is to take the same cookie cutter standard array as everyone else, and min-max your stats to fit your chosen class, instead of the more organic roleplaying approach of rolling your stats in order and then choosing a class that you qualified for. Much soul was lost there
Four, feats are now an optional rule (lol) and they conflict with ability score increases. Most of the feats are dogshit anyway, and 99% of characters just pump their damage stat to 20, which is boring and stupid
Five, I dislike how cheesy dips are encouraged, classes lose their flavor and theme and just become blocks of features to fit together
Six, atheist paladins and clerics is retarded, paladins in general are retarded in fifth edition and are just le burst damage class, fuck it why not mix paladin and warlock together while I'm at it, smite with my fucking warlock spell slots like some faggot
Seven, Slimy Doom
I could go on but it just sucks. I tried to not be a grog and give it a fair shake and played a couple campaigns but I just don't like it.
>t. started with 2nd ed

>>4115963
Everything you posted is correct and I was so hyperfixated on magic concentration that I forgot 80% of players probably use rpgbot or whatever to build their character and force the DM to accommodate them rather than building their character around the DM's story.

Damn.

>>4115973
Concentration isn't a terrible idea. in principle, reducing the prevalence of magic items and trying to make them rare and meaningful is reasonable. I just think of fifth ed as largely being a mixture of "good intentions, poor execution" and "retarded intentions" unfortunately.

>>4115989
I can agree with both, especially the former. There's nothing wrong with trying to make the game snappier, but when it takes years for the edition to update when using a digital model, that's not just poor execution, that's an executioner missing the next so completely they give their victim a hair cut. UA also makes it clear how little playtesting is actually going on in R&D. How long did it take them to try and fix ranger again?

>>4065123
I got it bg1 working mostly fine with a friend although we did accidentally figure out how to dupe items so we got all the stat tomes for both of us, we went into bg2 but didn't play much of it.
The connectivity wasn't the best, I forget the exact issues but there definitely were problems.

>>4115963
That's too short of a list of the problems with 5e, but it's at least a necessary and concise list of some of the biggest ones.
Life protip for the noobs in here: there's literally thousands and thousands of other RPG systems. You don't have to use D&D. You just fucking don't. D&D isn't a good RPG system, and it's crucially important for nooblets here to understand that D&D is a terrible system for actually playing the type of game that D&D claims it is.
Once you understand that D&D only continues to exist because of Hasbro's unlimited budget for marketing and brand recognition, you are liberated to play literally anything else. And you will find a better system that does what you want better than D&D does. I guaranfuckingtee it.

And once you do... you, too, will gatekeep access to your play groups by vetting applicants with questions about how they feel about D&D.

>>4115794
None of the meme bullshit "builds" were ever used in actual play. Because anyone who actually plays the game understands the concept of a social contract, and they're there to actually play the game. Not assemble bullshit for no constructive purpose or just to piss off everyone else at the table.
And apparently it bears mentioning that most of the builds you named actually aren't even legal. They require the GM to reinterpret rules very directly against their plain grammar and intent, or they are just literally flat out illegal according to any possible RAW.
So, again, none of those memes ever happened in actual play, and there are many reasons for that fact.
And no one even uses 3.0 anyway because 3.5 and PF1e both exist and are just objectively the correct version of the 3.X framework. No one has any reason to use 3.0. It'd be like using the alpha version of Minecraft. It has no content and isn't even a finished product. It's literally not feature-complete, and obviously an alpha version will have bugs.

It's pretty disingenuous for you to even bring up 3.0, frankly.

>>4115807
Assuming you would survive the first level is one of those chestnuts spoken by fools who have never actually played the game. You have only heard about D&D by reading the shittiest forums on the internet, and it shows.

>>4115807
Just so you know, TWF with sneak attackers is infamously game-breakingly powerful in 3e. You really don't know what you're talking about, anon.

>>4115807
>Drizzt was one of the worst possible characters you could make in 3e
only if you follow the retarded default rules and build him as a Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5 instead of a Warblade 6/Dervish 10

>>4116198
>NOOO HOW DARE YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION NOW I HAVE NO MORE ARGUMENTS SO I'LL JUST MAKE SHIT UP!
lmao
>>4116199
>muh sneak attack
>puts a single skeleton in your path
>>4116210
>b-but if you use this specific powerbuild using nonstandard classes from supplemental materials instead of something that actually make sense it becomes playable!
Literally proving my original point.

>>4116195
>None of the meme bullshit "builds" were ever used in actual play.
You're totally right, nobody has ever played a Druid.

You simply don't understand, I am entitled to play a dragonwrought kobold paladin 3 / sorcerer 4 / abjurant champion 5 /sacred exorcist 8 and it is the DM's responsibility that I have fun

>>4116195
>Not assemble bullshit for no constructive purpose or just to piss off everyone else at the table.
This is radically different from my experience playing tabletop D&D. There's always that one guy.

>>4064463
BG2 is not that much better than BG3

change my mind

>overall, same terrible writing
>BG2 has more exploitable combat which deludes people it's better, but RTwP
>BG3 has fair-er combat but it takes millions of hours due to cancer animations

>>4116262
I notice you said there's only one. Did you notice that the rest of the group is not that one guy, and they refer to him as "that one guy"? In a derogatory sense. He's not welcome. His type is well understood for the disruption it causes. He is explicitly and specifically anti-game.
You didn't really think about what you were about to say, you just wanted to be contrarian.

>>4116221
Druid was not in the list of bullshit in the quoted post. So you're shifting goalposts.

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>>4116220
Don't get upset when you lose an argument, anon. It's not a good look.

>>4116220
Immunities and various puzzle monster mechanics are part of the conceit of the genre. There are no classes or builds in the game that can deal with every monster. That's why you're part of a team of players.

>>4064463
I'm trying BG2 with a fighter heavy party and the game plays itself 90% of the time. Perhaps a "no fighters allowed" party for the next playthrough.

>>4116766
>the sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor

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how does one deal with haveing lawful good players in their group
?

>>4115807
>1. Toughness is the most iconic one. Seems decent early on when you have jack shit for HP, especially if you're playing something like an elf wizard, but in reality is one of the most useless feats in the game.
>2. Overly specific stuff like Weapon Specialization and similar feats (including, arguably, the entire Ranger class with its favored enemy nonsense) is infamous for its "either the DM specifically caters to your character, or you just wasted a feat" effect.
>3. Almost anything related to two-weapon fighting is infamously bad math in 3e.
>I could also go into class and race mechanics which heavily punished you for making certain choices (like fucking ECL). Ironically, the famous Drizzt archetype was literally one of the worst possible characters you could make in 3e, because he's a Drow (shit racial ECL) Ranger (shit class features) who dual wields (shit damage output).
The initial claim was that these things were "intentionally designed to be bad just to punish players who picked them without doing the maths", which is a bold claim. You were asked to name three examples. You named three examples of things that you believe are mechanically weak and poor choices from an optimization standpoint. For one, you're neglecting that this is a roleplaying game and the player is expected to make choices from a roleplaying in-character point of view. Perhaps my character takes weapon specialization because every day he open-palmed his greatsword training VHS. Perhaps I'm playing a ranger because I think rangers are cool and I want to pretend I'm like Legolas or Aragorn or whatever. Perhaps I'm a weeb and want to LARP like I'm dual wielding a katana and a wakizashi and I'm teleporting behind you. But that's besides the point.
"This was intentionally designed to be bad, as a punishment" is not at all the same thing as "this thing isn't that great". Lern 2 roleplay.

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>>4117222
Next you're going to tell me that you base your BG2 party around the alignment of your companions even beyond Good/Neutral/Evil, rather than their form and function.

>>4117242
>Next you're going to tell me that you base your BG2 party around the alignment of your companions even beyond Good/Neutral/Evil, rather than their form and function.
Naturally. It's the only way to play.
Two games ago, I did solo paladin
Last game I played, I had a a custom party of four, paladin, fighter/cleric, fighter/thief, mage
If I played again, it would be paladin, Minsc, Keldorn, Anomen, Aerie, Nalia -> Imoen

>>4117222
https://web.archive.org/web/20080221174425/http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_142

Trap options were built in.

>>4109630
>IWD better rpg than BG2
what the fuck are you on about?

>>4117382
There's a lot of retard contrarians on vrpg

>>4117242
that LN party is looking stacked as fuck
the TN and CN parties are looking like a fucking nightmare

>>4117331
Point conceded. Why didn’t you just post that to begin with?

>>4117493
NTA but that's fairly widespread knowledge. I'd imagine that most people who know about 3.X design also know about the philosophy behind it.

>>4117501
To be honest, I have seen that article before, saw the title was "Ivory Tower Game Design", rolled my eyes, and dismissed it as pretentious garbage without reading it. Having read it, really all I learned was that Monte Cook was a faggot.

But can you really call yourself a Bee Gee fan if you haven't even finished at least 3 runs on Ascension+SCS+Insane +Ironman (no saves, no reloading, if you die you must start over from the first Baldur's Gate even if you're at the end of ToB)?

'bet none of y'alls is a real Bee Gee.

>>4117661
>memorize everything about every encounter in the game
>pray for good RNG
Easy peasy

>>4117661
>solo sorcerer with all the good spells
EZ

>>4117701
Tips for a sorcerer?

>>4117661
I'm fine with not being a real fan if that means playing good games instead of a mix of overrated mods for spergs.

>>4117661
>Ascension+SCS+Insane +Ironman
None of those things sounds fun on their own, much less combined. The game would devolve into cheese and abusing exploits, rather than simply playing “the game, but harder” as intended.
>But can you really call yourself a Bee Gee fan
Yup. Played all these games when they came out, couldn’t tell you how many times.

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>>4064463
I have BG2 it imprinted in my brain.

>>4114846
A bit slow aren't you. EE forces the expansion, thus the Collector Edition merchants on you. Regular SoA doesn't have this problem.

>>4117899
Bonus merchants weren’t in ToB, they were in vanilla SoA and could be toggled on by editing files
Can’t speak for EE tho

>>4117694
>pray for good RNG
You get turned into mini sausages within seconds via a Fire Giant even with the minimum possible AC.

>>4117712
>None of those things sounds fun on their own, much less combined.
They merely make the game balanced, other than the double damage that you take. Even on the hardest difficulty in the original game, your enemies are gimped by not having their full arsenal of abilities available.

>>4117927
>>pray for good RNG
>You get turned into mini sausages within seconds via a Fire Giant even with the minimum possible AC.
Pray that your disabling spells land

Or did SCS make them immune

>Were the life of a child not at stake, I would say leave these mad gnomes to their own devices and forbid them from ever reproducing again.
Sir Anomen of the Most Based Order of the Radiant Heart

>>4117927
>They merely make the game balanced, other than the double damage that you take. Even on the hardest difficulty in the original game, your enemies are gimped by not having their full arsenal of abilities available.
It’s overcorrecting in the wrong direction, imo. I haven’t played Ascension (it makes the final ToB boss much harder, I believe?) but I have played through BG1 with SCS and I did not enjoy it, and skipped it for BG2.
IMO my favorite difficulty settings are something like fair, even rules for both players and enemies, with extra abilities and extra number of enemies, but not stat boosts/cheats. And imo SCS goes far too far in scripting cheesy bullshit with the expectation that the player is also abusing cheesy bullshit as hard as they can. I don’t play that way and it simply makes the game tedious and unfun, imo.

>>4117908
>Bonus merchants weren’t in ToB
Wrong. They were added in ToB Patch v26498.

>>4118052
>They were added in ToB Patch v26498
They were in the original release of SoA, before ToB came out.

>>4117927
If SCS did only what it advertised, then I would be on board, but it takes way too many liberties and it is one giant mess of a mod. All I want is AI improvements. I don't want faster bears, or nerfed Inquisitors, or a different spell book or monsters that are jacked up beyond belief. Just give me an AI upgrade in a mod that takes a literal second to download and install. It is a sin against humanity that the only AI buff for our great and dearest BG2 is so loaded up with bloatware.

>>4118055
Nice try, fucker. Sure they were, yet they weren't unlocked unless you had the CE CD. ToB unlocked them.

>>4117874
quality AI slop for once

>>4118052
>>4118055
>>4118062
Perhaps this confusion comes from the different bonus merchants, the one in the copper coronet and the one in the adventurer's mart

>>4118061
I've read SCS readme, IIRC it allows selecting which parts you want installed

carsomyr or purifier

>>4118108
>Perhaps this confusion comes from the different bonus merchants, the one in the copper coronet and the one in the adventurer's mart
It's possible that I am conflating the two. I just remember for many years enabling them with a component in the gibberlings three tweak pack. It lumped them together as "the bonus merchants" but I think you are correct, they came from different sources. One was a preorder bonus from a certain retailer, and one was from the "collector edition" or similar. I didn't have either the preorder or a special version of the game, the small mod in the tweak pack enabled both merchants even in a plain ol' vanilla copy of SoA.

>>4118108
>>4118112
All I know is that Balduran's Shield completely nullifies the entire challenge of the Unseeing Eye quest and basically anyone who doesn't cheese the game's economy to immediately get Edwin his Robes of Vecna is fucking retarded.

>>4118114
You can sneak past the beholders, or probably use a scroll of magic resistance, so who cares about the shield

>>4118110
But the mod is not modular that way, though. You can't only install the AI tweaks because not everything SCS does is compartmentalized under the options toggles.

>>4117874
I... unironically love that. It really captures the style of 2e as such a late '80s punkgoth rock countercultural subculture.

Personally, all I'm using for BG2 is
>Ascension
>Unfinished Business
>Spells Revised
>CDTweaks, to taste
>Skip Chateau Irenicus

Anything else is masturbatory. I won't criticize women if they get the Valygar and Haer'Dalis Romance mods, however, but technically those are masturbatory, too haha ;^)

>>4118111
>carsomyr or purifier
Carsomyr is cooler. You can dual wield purifier + foebane in ToB and it's pretty good, but not as cool.

>>4118133
>Spells Revised
I'll have to check this one out. BG2's spellbook is littered with weak/soon obsolete spells

>>4117990
Um no actually you just tank with your mages because the class is fucking OP. Once you realize that its smooth sailing no matter what mod and difficulty you set up to make the game more "fun"

>>4118165
Please, anon, don’t be silly. Tanking is for serious classes. The mage can sit in the back with a sling, occasionally chucking pebbles. After the battle, they can cast a couple identifys.

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>>4118096
>>4118132
Well, if you don't mind quality SLOP, check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvZxxoicYLA

>>4118183
>tfw ywn go to a drive-in theater circa 1983 and see this kino on a huge screen while munching on popcorn in the bed of your shitty beater truck

>>4118175
>Tanking is for serious classes.
Bardbros where you @, we got a job to do

>>4117990
See >>4118165 he got it.

>>4118175
>Please, anon, don’t be silly. Tanking is for serious classes. The mage can sit in the back with a sling, occasionally chucking pebbles. After the battle, they can cast a couple identifys.
Hilariously delusional. I bet you think your epic monk is super duper OP and can tank everything and dish out mad damage while at it.

>meanwhile, on normal difficulty (all the mods mentioned above)
>instantly turned to mini sausages because he can't even wear a fucking helmet

Can anyone here honestly and earnestly defend the bard class in BG2? That shit is so fuckin' ass...

>>4118317
Wait, you think bards are bad? Hilarious!

>>4118317
>does_he_know.png

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Anons...
BG2 enjoyers...
I would like to share my quality AI slop video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvZxxoicYLA&t=2s

>>4118328
Fuck, wrong thread. Sorry.
Double coffe.

>>4118328
you already did

>>4118317
They are a poor man's Figher/Mage. The Blade kit especially can get some decent APR. Bards level up fast so their spells are stronger compared to mages, but that comes at a cost of never unlocking spells higher than level 6.

>>4118330
Too much caffeine. Sorry.
I have coffee addiction relapse.

>>4118333
roll a coffeelock

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>>4118317
Bard Song makes your strongest dudes even stronger and give a shitload of useful immunities at high levels, level 6 spells are enough to cast Improved Haste and they automatically level pickpocket so your thieves don't have to. If that's not enough they also get thief trap HLAs and Use Any Item for le ebin cheese.

>>4118332
>They are a poor man's Figher/Mage.
They are a roleplayer's choice. Fighter/Mage is a 12 year old kid's Bard

>>4118140
Meh. Every spell is useful if you aren't an autistic powergamer. The game isn't that tough. You really don't need to min max and if you do, then it makes the game unfun. That mindset is how you get players who think the only way to play is using mods.

>>4118400
Read the descriptions of the spells Sleep and Spook, and tell me what differences you notice.

>>4118317
Your question reeks of scarcity mentality, although I admit that may be something I've picked up from your post due to the nature of this website. Songs, arcane spells and thievery in a single class package is reason enough. Wands and scrolls and thief pots are a big deal. UAI is an even bigger deal. Higher level spells is pretty dang good, too. Shit, I'd even go out on a limb and say having naturally high charisma on a character is worth it if only to lubricate one's immersion whilst maneuvering the world. Some perceived notion that another class or class combo "is better" so Bard "is bad" is literally retarded and completely incongruent with the genre. You get an entire six character slots for your party. Four is a sweet spot, yet it's still three more than one, which is the industry's self-imposed standard.

>>4118405
You must be 18 or older to use this site, kiddo. If you can't read, then you doubly don't belong here.

>>4118341
>They are a roleplayer's choice. Fighter/Mage is a 12 year old kid's Bard
I really like using bards in parties, buuuuut, what kills it for me in BG is that I like to use them to replace the thief’s slot, and they don’t get traps and locks skill, only pickpocket (which I never use), so it totally kills them for me.

>>4118414
>I like to use them to replace the thief’s slot
Why?

>>4118438
For flavor. They’re a flexible and useful party member that can do a little bit of everything. DEX skill monkey for locks and traps, buffing party members, little spellcasting, little light armor fencing style fighting.
My ideal comp is paladin/cleric/bard/mage, for a twist on the classic fighter cleric thief mage.

>>4118442
..But why does bard need to replace the thief?

paladin/cleric/thief/bard/mage

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Yo, I guess I'll play BG2EE, can you guys help me finalize on some stuff?
Namely which class to roll, I want to bring Anomen, Keldorn, Jan, and maybe Jaehira (dunno about the 6th member).
I'd sorta like to try a Thief class kit, or just simply something that gets UAI
What would you suggest?

>>4118449
Because what I care about from the thief is handling the traps and locks, and when the bard can handle the traps and locks, then I don’t need a thief.
Besides that, it depends on how many party member slots we’re talking about. I was specifically referring to the classic four archetypal roles.

>>4118470
Assassin or one of the bards.

I just can't not play paladin. I can't not impregnate Aerie. I can't not release Keldorn from my service.

I... I just can't...

>>4118814
>non-virgin paladin

>>4118814
>paladin
>having sex
?????

>>4118815
>>4118816
Keldorn has a wife and kids

>>4118820
he was cucked did you even play the game you retard

>>4118814
>racemixing with elves
*fallen paladin*

>>4118821
that nobleman who was boning his wife wasn't the father of the daughters though

Aerie is an incel fantasy. Jaheira is sloppy seconds.

Viconia's where it's at.

>>4118825
Viconia got spit-roasted by a human farmer and his son

>>4118827
Based, I love sluts

>>4118827
Viconia got spit roasted by me and my bro Keldorn and the rest of the angry mob

>>4118842
>Jan cooks some turnips over Viconia's charred corpse

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>>4118815
>implying