>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this on /vg/
Discussing what? Warcraft 3 in general?

>>2354246
OK zoomtard
>>2332732
>>2352043

what do you think i have to say about wc3 that i haven't said the last twenty-four years?

>it gets boring doing the same thing every time
hmm. HMMMMMMMM

>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this on /vg/ other than to talk shit about orcs and how they're a bunch of savage barefoot pieces of shit who genocide every people they come across and drink demon cum when they fail
That's based though. It's only cringe, when the Orcs try to deny this and pretend they are better than the Vanguard of the Burning Legion.

>Favorite faction? Builds? I enjoy my night elf bears but it gets boring doing the same thing every time
I like going Illidari and start off with a Demon Hunter Hero and Naga as my race, before unlocking Chaos Orcs and when I have enough gold, I also unlock Blood Elves.

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World pvp while leveling is the vanilla endgame.

Whoops, wrong thread. btw Stratholme was mass unlawful killing.

TREMBLE MORTALS AND DESPAIR. DOOM HAS COME TO THIS WORLD.

>>2354246
>/vg/
wrong board
>How come no one is ever discussing this
there are 2 active warcraft3 threads right now
>Favorite faction? Builds?
undead, wagon/necromancer skelly spam, very fun but usually opponent won't allow it to happen in PvP, very fun in compstomp

>>2354319
>>2354368
>what do you think i have to say about wc3 that i haven't said the last twenty-four years?
doesn't stop you from having 4 simultaneous AOE threads at any given time. Like there's so much discussion to be had about the newest Mesoamerican civ but this time without jaguars
>>2354312
>>2354452
/vst/ i meant. yea most comps aren't viable in pvp unfortunately, which is why I came here to discuss. I'm experimenting with humans but there's just so many units to pick from I have no idea what and when to use. When to go Gyro over Dragonhawks, Tanks over Mortars, stuff like that
>>2354425
>That's based though
Fighting peaceful elves and getting your shit pushed in by a bunch of women to go cry to your demon daddy is anything but based

>>2354510
>When to go Gyro over Dragonhawks
when you need heavy anti air but riflemen solve both air and ground problems
>Tanks over Mortars
late game vs early game, tanks can only excel when supported with an army, mortars can delete towers from safe distance

>>2354510
>gyro
spammable, splash dmg, non-organic
>hawks
low dmg, good util abilities
>mortars
long ranged siege, living unit, shrapnel upgrade so good against caster backline too
>tanks
mobile forts that can only attack buildings, and air with upgrades

It's not rocket surgery, anon. Go copters when enemy is massing air, go hawks when enemy has a few bigger air units or has spammed towers. Go mortars whenevever you need siege or the enemy has mass light/unarmored units. Tanks are for cheeses where you build like 5 in secret and destroy their main while fighting his army on the map.

If you are a beginner you should start with one of those starter guides so that you get a handle on the basics. You need a foundation to start experimenting from.

>>2354553
>>2354557
Well I know what each does, thanks. It's just that humans seem to have overly specialized units and the decision making process it's harder than it needs to be, at least for me, at this point. And now we add rifles into the mix?
Last game I was shitting on an undead, made sure to scout to not get surprised Wyrm'd again, only saw slaughters and some aboms so I started preparing my gryphons, then he hits me with mass obsidians, so I quickly built 2 workshops and started working on gyros, but they would explode in seconds. I suppose riflemen was the play here.
But if that's the case I guess I need to stop going 2 sanctum every match and just play reactively as hu?
>hawks when you need heavy anti air
I thought they'd be great vs wyrms, but it turns out wyrm comps also have fiends which render your hawks useless. so I guess you go gyros vs them, but, again, they pop in a few seconds
>tanks late game
Usually when I see a fucker turtling I build a couple of workshop right outside his base anyways, but I always go mortar. Makes sense though, thanks
>If you are a beginner you should start with one of those starter guides so that you get a handle on the basics.
I maybe have 3-400 matches spread over 3 years. I watch Grubby but there's only so much you can learn from watching pros when, like you say, the foundation isn't fully there. I've got build orders down but I've never really learned how to properly adapt to an army comp that shits on me.
There aren't really other active sites to discuss so sorry if I don't discuss warcraft 3 in the "what's your favorite naruto TD custom map" thread and make one of my own.

>>2354593
watch grubby if you want competitive takes
paladin rifle was the prime meme build at least up until recently
hawks, gyros and tanks barely ever get made in competitive 1v1
>I watch Grubby but there's only so much you can learn from watching pros when, like you say, the foundation isn't fully there
not sure what you mean by foundation. Foundation is creeping whenever you can and not going back to base without a good reason. Making gyros and dismissing rifles seems like a knowledge gap issue

>>2354601
I know about pala rifle, I was playing it last year, but again, you can only do that so many times before it gets tedious
>Foundation is creeping whenever you can and not going back to base without a good reason. Making gyros and dismissing rifles seems like a knowledge gap issue
Fundamental knowledge, if you prefer. My choices of army comp, the opponent's all possible army comps, how to counter them etc.
>hawks, gyros and tanks barely ever get made in competitive 1v1
true, but then again, I'm not sure if they mass taurens in "real" competitive 1v1 either. Possibly I've given a bad example,but either way I definitely have encounter some wacky comps that a basic rifle+casters couldn't deal with in the blizzard 3500s

Why does wc3 have so few builds compared to broodwar?
https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Common_build_orders
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Category:Terran_Build_Orders

>>2354853
Because wc3 is focused more about creeping with heroes and map control in the early game so build orders need to be more in line for this progression and take less player attention.

>>2354632
Looking at the stats then it does feel like spiders+wyrms are countered by breakers+rifles in theory, but it practice it feels like it's down to scouting it with enough time to react or not. Probably something that Grubby would tell you to stop before the wincon ever materializes.

>>2354923
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF1vS4rRey0

>>2354923
>something happens
yeah, something happens: the game is over by that point because your army/main got deleted before you had a chance to react

>>2354924
do you focus fire wyrms or let damage spread with attack move? When you're facing 3+ wyrms you're just really bad, it takes forever to get to that point for UD. Similar situation is 12 battlecruisers in starcraft. You literally need to leave the enemy alone for 20+ minutes to get to that point

>>2354923
>>it just felt very video gamey
The video game feels very video gamey. NO WAY!

>>2354945
Ideally breakers whould be targeting spiders and keeping them from attacking rifles while rifles attack wyrms, but fights are hardly ideal circumstances. If you can disable the DK, you can get away with focusing a single wyrm, otherwise you need to threaten two targets.

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>>2354926
>>2354942
>>2354949
so much seethe
who knew painting brood war pvp in favorable light compared to w3 would trigger some anons this much

>>2354246
unironically the best rts ever made

>>2354923
>Turtling wasn't viable back when towers were op
>Rushing doesn't work in Warcraft
Thanks for the input, reddit.

>>2354924
>enough time to react or not. Probably something that Grubby would tell you to stop before the wincon ever materializes.
Definitely, and I do have 2 or 3 games in the previous week alone where the undead was turtling, my heroes were 2 levels above his, I'd even scouted his sacrificial pit which I didn't think you needed anymore, yet I fought him in his base and got my shit pushed in.
Maybe I shouldn't have fought him in his base (though how else are you going to stop wyrms before they happen) maybe I should have had more priests or more mortars, maybe I should have expanded earlier, I don't know, but I definitely felt robbed, especially the 2nd time when I was preparing exactly for that

>>2354992
>I prefer game X over Y because of Z reason
>so much seethe
you don't know what seething is. Visit the homm3 thread and ctrl+f forge to see actual seethe

>>2355067
He's likely just a PVE faggot who can't micro trying to stir shit up

>>2355005
>I should have expanded earlier,
this
>I'd even scouted his sacrificial pit which I didn't think you needed anymore,
you don't
maybe he was scouting for your expansion with shades or where you were creeping

if your opponent is turtling then you
>creep their camps
>attack their base if they try to move across map
>take an expansion
his investment into towers etc means you should have a stronger army
if you deny undead hero levels then it seriously hurts them and with your expansion you should be able to effortlessly outpace their eco
even if they somehow start getting frost wryms before you're sieging them with 80 pop you should simply overwhelm them and with your own air too
wc3 has relatively easy macro so there is no reason to be floating gold when you don't want to be

>>2355188
Thanks. I'm not a complete beginner but there's tricky stuff I need to get in my system. Stuff like not panicking and attacking an expansion, but instead making one of my own, base trading, timings in general, routs etc. Bnet is a mess so it's not like you can learn by consistently playing against players of similar skill. I'll get around to playing on w3champs one of these days

>>2355267
theory is a lot easier than practice and it's very easy to armchair game
this goes for yourself too though: watch your own replays and analyse your own game
it's much easier to do when you aren't in the moment having to execute stuff
stuff like micro just comes with time it's more the strategic decisions you need to inspect

>>2354992
He's not talking about brood war. He mentions Banelings which are a SC2 unit.

it doesn't seem like anything has meaningfully replaced the WC3 custom scene sadly
you could get a million games for the price of one
why has this been so hard for developers to replicate? they saw the massive success WC3 had due to its custom scene, spawning several billion dollar games and genres, yet no one can replicate it?
why have we gone backwards as a society?

>>2355286
Things like that still exist in minecraft and roblox and I assume fortnite. I'm sure I've seem some wonky things there, and that's not to mention the near infinite amount of party games you might find on steam.
The migration to first person from isometric definitely has to do with some decrease in whatever you call the trait associated with patience and imagination, I don't want to say IQ though it may as well be that. I thought people don't like to click their mouse anymore, then I remembered BG3, but then I remembered that half of that game is cutscenes anyway.

Those guys over at the AOM thread are having too much fun, design a new hero for each faction

>Brood war babbies refuse to play on desert OR snow tileset because it hurts their eyes after playing for 80 hours a week

kek, I couldn't imagine only using forest/space maps forever.

Recently started WC3.
Arrived at the mission where you have to kill that city of zombies.
I don't really like the hero system, but upkeep is something more rts should have (had).
Not sure how I feel about the campaign, I hate timed missions of any kind and the last one already had me hold out for half an hour.
Will it get better or will I get more of this?

>>2355439
The campaign is definitely worth it, at least the RoC one. In the expansion it's mostly hero-centered which I definitely didn't like, it played like a much worse Diablo. However, if you don't care about Arthas or the story in general, I guess you can let it go, as far as I'm concerned it only gets better culminating with the last chapter. There's not a whole lot of timed missions, I think maybe 2 or 3

>>2355321
>Human
Si:7 Operative - Agi
1. Backstab (passive): Hitting units from behind deals extra damage
2. Spell Shield: Blocks the next targeted spell
3. Sprint: Increase movement speed
4: Smoke Bomb: Enemies are slowed silenced and have an increased miss chance

I'm also thinking about a hero who's ult is like metamorphosis but makes him flying. Either an Orc dragon tamer or a Nelf Druid

>>2355444
>who's ult is like metamorphosis but makes him flying.
Wildhammer dwarf, ranged hero(throws hammers), ultimate is to call a gryphon

>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this
I stopped giving a shit about Blizzard games after Diablo 3 sucked

>>2355486
They haven't yed had the chance to ruin W3
>>2355484
It's too much like the Rider

>>2355439
there's one more undead mission where you have to defend for 30 minutes, then the last mission in the roc campaign is also a defend for X time mission. They're great.

>>2355444
SI7 is Stormwind, the humans in WC3 are mostly from Lordaeron. Otherwise a rogueish outlaw character would fit with TFT Lordaeron themes.

>>2355906
I was thinking they'd send an operative to keep tabs on the whole undead situation

why didn't arthas just have sex with jaina

>>2354853
As someone who loves WC3, Heroes are just too good. Heroes are faster than other units, Town Portal is a get out of jail free card, and unlike starcraft, losing a unit is extra painful because that's EXP for the enemy hero. So a lot of skirmishes and strategy early/mid wc3 are getting to units which either force the opponent into a fight (hunter nets, sorc slow) or have insane value (pillage grunts/hunts)

>>2355442
>The campaign is definitely worth it, at least the RoC one.
I am playing it right now after 20 years. It might have been a mistake to do it on normal but this shit isn't challenging or anything at all.
Most missions let me just sit on my ass and build up to a steamroll.
The only difficulty I faced were defense missions because I got so bored before the end where the harder waves would pop that I started fucking around a lose units I normally wouldn't.
Also the story and writing... they aren't that great as I remembered. I played Kohan 2 not long before and I was thinking man it feels like a worse War3 in terms of story and stuff. Well, no, it wasn't worse it was the same, just nostalgia made War3 seem better.

I liked RTS campaigns as a kid, but can't find any of them as good anymore. Maybe I'll try AoM later but I don't have much hope about it.

>>2355659
>They haven't yed had the chance to ruin W3
Reforged

>>2356465
that's wow nuLore
there's no mention of new stormwind in wc3

>>2356663
Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns. Normal is easy and easy is the jouro braindead difficulty. If you have someone to play with, I recommend looking at the 2man campaign maps which usually have their difficulty dialled up besides accounting for two players. Very fun with a friend.

There's definetely some nostalgia involved, but you shouldn't go into wc3 expecting a great narrative or story. There's not a lot of canvas anyway for the writers to work with since every map has only an handful of lines of dialog. It's like expecting a great literary work from twitterposts. That's just not going to happen due to the technical limitations. The strengths of wc3 are the presentation and the style. And the dialog, even tho it's short, is to the point and punchy. That means there are a lot of memorable lines.

From a gameplay sense the roc campaign is a letdown. It functions like an extended tutorial for each of the races, but the maps are dull and they don't really teach anything relevant. Nothing that can be transferred to the realgame on the ladder. Tft has much better maps overall with greater challenge and a greater mix of interesting maps. In tft human campaign you can play regular humans, gimped humans and then beefed monsterhumans. And not in a tutorial-ish way, but in a challengemode-ish way.

The only problem is that it's short.

>>2356685
the campaign is an extended tutorial, as most campaigns are, but i completely disagree that there isn't a strong story
the wc3 story is one of the best, possibly the best, in any rts ever and, unlike most games, the events in the story are reflected in the gameplay
you remember all the key characters and you understand their motives and actions im fact they are so iconic that even people who never played may know about them
tft plays a lot better and is also written very strongly
no campaign in any game gives you ladder skills beyond teaching you the unit rooster and wc3 does that fine

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>>2356663
>Most missions let me just sit on my ass and build up to a steamroll.
>I liked RTS campaigns as a kid, but can't find any of them as good anymore
Most campaigns weren't really designed for competitive players 20 years ago, even those of the early 2000s, let alone the metafagging player of today. Compare even old AOEII campaigns to what they release today and the difference in difficulty is night and day. Though, from what I hear, Reforged has come up with some new levels, fuck if I'll even go check them out though.
Still, I will say that there's a handful of levels where you can't really just sit on your ass, even on normal. I'm not saying it takes effort, but it's not always easy peasy
>>2356792
>tft plays a lot better and is also written very strongly
I really, really disagree. You can tell they were trying out things for WOW and were losing interest in the RTS aspects of Warcraft. I definitely remember that even as a kid, Rexxar's campaign struck me as odd, what with the quest marks and more-or-less solo Hero adventure. What I forgot was that all of TFT's campaigns were like that, there were maybe 2 or 3 base building missions. The last mission of Rexxar and that troll clearing an entire city of skilled mages was fucking bullshit, both in terms of gameplay and story. As far as I'm concerned, nothing compares in quality to the last ROC mission. I wish I had my screenshots of KOTG+POTM ults spamming ults making use of terrain

>>2356792
>the campaign is an extended tutorial, as most campaigns are
yep I vividly remember how i defeated grubby on ladder by defending my base for 30 minutes and destroying the gate to quel thalas

>>2356792
It's good in the sense that it succeeds in what it needs to and sets out to do. But it's like a thin movie plot where you aren't supposed to think about things since then everything would unravel. RTS cut-scenes aren't just the medium for delivering a good story, but that's ok since all it really has to do is tie one mission to the next. Herr wc3 succeeds stylishly.
>>2356906
The last map of tft is much closer to playing a competetive map than the last map of roc. Roc is just passive and railroaded on a timer, tft is active and dynamic with options and decisions and possibilities.

Tft orc campaign feels like a donut oc steel fanfiction. I don't even want to think about it.

>>2356978
>The last map of tft is much closer to playing a competetive map than the last map of roc. Roc is just passive and railroaded on a timer, tft is active and dynamic with options and decisions and possibilities.
Yeah I definitely agree. I personally didn't like the final TFT map specifically because it felt like it wanted me to abuse some systems and play in a way where I felt like I had to cheese the AI, though I guess now that this is just how you play RTS vs computer and I had a different perspective back then. Still, I can concede it's a good mission among bullshit and trite solo hero adventure maps.
With the RoC one, the scale was so great and you had to be on the lookout for so many things that it definitely felt that you were defending against a huge demon invasion. Now that I know about control groups, it'd probably be a different story.
We can shake hands on the orc campaign though. Fuck whoever thought that a half orc should be able to single-handedly massacre an entire population of wizards. Likely Metzen- how sad that he's a beacon of qualitative writing in Blizzard now

>>2356954
>implying any tutorial in any game ever made or even in theory could give you these kind of skills
do you even know what a tutorial is?

>>2356685
>Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns.
Okay I switched to that and man it's just... not fun?
>having to dance back and forth with my squishy units because AI focuses casters and weaker ranged
>except maps are very often narrow corridors in which I can barely traverse let alone fight and position without pathfinding making my units getting stuck on themselves
>missions are insanely tedious sometimes
>do x while you defend your base
I don't know if it's the difficulty, because I already had these problems playing on normal, I think it just amplifies them.
Also I am getting disoriented so badly with things like Priests having light armor and my Raiders not doing extra dmg to them... Or not having my own shop to salve/heal scroll damaged units.
I like some ideas, like the wyvern mission, having to ferry units with zeppelins... But using zeppelins is fucking ass!

>>2354246
I replayed this game so many times over the years I can no longer replay it and enjoy it. Tried the custom campaigns people made and honestly they all suck ass. They all try to do too much or too little

>>2356573
He left her for thrall, he knew his penis wasn't big enough to handle jaina

>>2358124
>movement
WC3 units almost never get stuck on eachother. Unit pathing and collision is one of the things wc3 engine does very well. In SC1 you'd literally have units get stuck in traffic jams from a simple move order. In wc3 you'll always have units sort themselves out relativelt quickly.
>overwhelmed
Multitasking and being able to effectively direct the flow of combat is the fun part in RTS. Dealing with the preassure and the stress and the challenge is fun.
>AC
You are overthinking it. Armorclass isn't something you have to worry about in the campaign. Having your unit do 15 damage instead of 18 to a 250hp support isn't the main consideration. Think of it as doing 15 dmg instead of no damage and the tradeoff for util that raiders bring seems far better. Or consider the following: hdroes have the best armorclass in the game reducing nearly every source of damage, yet they are still often the most valuable targets to attack on the field.

>>2358143
thrall is gay anon

>>2358188
>WC3 units almost never get stuck on eachother.
They do in narrow corridors and there is this weird formation shit that I didn't bother to observe properly but I noticed whole groups waiting for some specific units to walk to the front of the group before they all do the movement command I gave. Honestly I can't be arsed to fiddle around ~18 units or even just 12 in corridors that fit 5 or 6 at most.
Also I had a moment in TFT MP some time ago when my whole group of 4 footies got bunched up and stopped for a second because the first one hit a wandering critter in it's path.
>Multitasking and being able to effectively direct the flow of combat is the fun part in RTS. Dealing with the preassure and the stress and the challenge is fun.
I'm fine in multiplayer and in other games. Somehow this gets on my nerves really bad. Especially with the above mentioned.
>You are overthinking it.
I'm just really thrown off by things not working the way I am used to them working. What is the point of raiders even like this.
>cata better siege
>grunt better front
>headhunter better caster kill
ensnare? almost worthless in SP, extra clicking when pathfinding already is a fuck, better to just build trolls to kill air and the enemies never retreat so I could use it to secure kills

>>2358413
you just a move in the campaign and micro back dying guys it's really easy

>>2358371
He has a wife

>>2358413
Keep the formation toggle off, always, as it forces everyone to move at the speed of the slowest units under move commands.
>group of 4 footies got bunched up and stopped for a second because the first one hit a wandering critter in it's path
This isn't getting stuck. This is just the game engine having consistent collision detection and pathing. It wasn't uncommon for RTS from the 90s to have units literally get stuck on each other forever from a single move command. Units in wc3 are very good at finding new pathways when they get stuck and even a cluster of units will untangle itself relatively smoothly. Units in Wc3 don't behave like a hivemind in the sense that they don't communicate with each other and figure out the most efficient pathways for every unit accounting for the paths of every other unit in the group. In this sense they behave liek individual units and they will have inefficiencies and conflicting paths. This creates avenues of skill expressing through managing units and blocking enemies.
>What is the point of raiders even like this
Mobility, cc, siege. In that order. Fast units can retreat before dying and chase low units trying to retreat, as well as move across the map faster. Ensnare is super powerful and useful in every imaginable situation where units are present. It grounds flying units, immobilizes ground units, interrupts casts. You can use it to isolate a unit, to stop one from chasing, stop a worker from repairing. It's got loads of synergies (ensnare bears, walk up with kodos for free lunches). Siege damage type is literally a tetriary bonus which is meant to threaten raiders to do hit and run attacks on buildings. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be attacking units in a battle. Where knights are frontline cavalry, raiders are hit-and-run/enabling cavalry.

I'll be honest, everything you are saying sounds like a massive entitlement and skill issue. It's not the game, it's you. Relinquish your ego and play the game.

>>2358456
raiders are kinda bad in the campaign because the ai never runs away even though they are s tier in mp

>>2356685
>Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns.
[citation needed]

>>2358539
Don't worry so much about difficulty. Worry about if people start deciding to kill faggots. That's a quote

>>2358456
>Keep the formation toggle off
I didn't know this is even a thing. Was this introduced at some point? I don't remember this behavior being in the game at all actually but that could be just a memory thing.
>This isn't getting stuck.
Ok, then it's not called stuck, idc, you got the point, I hope.
>radiers part of your post
Have you... even read what I wrote? We are talking about RoC campaign. I know how to use raiders in MP, I know what they are good for there. Their role is fucked in campaign because how differently things are set up and behave there.

I don't know why are you trying to explain things to me as if I wasn't playing RTS games and WC3 in the past 20 years and this was my first one.

>>2358428
That's mostly what I've been doing but halfway through the orc campaign I am having enough
>Honestly I can't be arsed to fiddle around ~18 units or even just 12 in corridors that fit 5 or 6 at most.

>>2358555
After re-reading your posts I can see what you were saying instead of what I remember you saying. The only explanation I've got is that I must have been only semi-focused while reading it on my phone, taken the wrong meaning and then replied with that in mind like an hour later when I was less busy. Genuinely didn't notice it until now.

>>2358561
No problem, anon, it happens.

>>2358551
If "Hard" was the intended difficulty it would be called "Normal".
Because "Normal" as the word itself indicates is the baseline and norm for difficulty. "Normal" is and always was the intended difficulty.

>>2354246

What was Illidan's punishment again, after failing again to kill the Lich King, when Arthas beat his ass? I think there never was any consequences.

>>2358772
There was never any because he conquered Outland and ran back there to hide behind his armies.

>>2354246
>Favourite factions: UD > NE > HU > ORC
>Favourite build: CL + Ghoul + beetle giga rush.
>Bring Rod of Necro and skull of damned and 1 acolyte.
>Overwhelm them with zounds of units and towers erecting at the same time. >Because warcraft is so slow this can be a 10 minute slog where they are just trying to stop the fire.
>Start teching up the second you leave your base.
>By the time they have held, if they held, you have aboms with disease cloud around corner
>9/10 who make it this far just rage quit

I've actually seen some people do this now because CL got mega buffed. But I've been doing this since the start of TfT. Best win I ever had was an Orc ranked 3 on the ladder. He seethed so hard losing to a casual. Thats what you get when you tech to t2 with zero units.

>>2358866
Yea I don't give a shit, undead is a huge problem. They have the capacity to fast expo AND interrupt yours within before you even get to wise up, and it's all done with free summoned units that give shit xp. And free regen at home, and infinite corpses.
Happy has been #1 since forever and undead get nothing but buffs, but a fucking league streamer complains about rifle-pala and BM gets gutted

>>2358934
I don't think pointing to the #1 pro is really a good way to look for balance. WC3 is a relatively small scene too. That said, I do think undead is strong and orc is weak but mostly because orc lategame sucks meaning they have to win or basically win before things even get there.

Orc also has expensive, albeit good, units topped off with expensive, if also good, healing which is partly their strength but also means they are typically poor unless they expo. Lightning orb annoys me the most because it's so expensive but it isn't even a particularly good orb.
It almost feels like orc gets their mid game very early but is also stuck in their mid game forever. Which is just kind of the race's personality but it says a lot that without raiders they would be unplayable.

Undead, on the other hand, is almost impossible to attack and is very happy to let the game run on. Their healing is virtually free and they can spam cheap or even free summons for scouting, creeping, and harass. It feels like all the pressure is to try and cripple them early but they are just so hard to attack. They lack early dispel, needing mercs to get it, but destroyers are one of the strongest units once they get them.
I don't really know what to even do besides try to deny their creeping and expo. I've lost games where I thought I did that but underestimated them, attacked too early, and then died, quickly or slowly. Maybe I should try to snipe acolytes more but it just feels like feeding xp.

>>2354510
>doesn't stop you from having 4 simultaneous AOE threads at any given time. Like there's so much discussion to be had about the newest
AoE gets dlc's

>>2359007
Funny, I'd have said that orc orb is stronger than most, then again I only ever play AGAINST orc. I wouldn't consider orc weak simply because of their relatively lackluster late game, they have a disproportionately strong early and middle and that is their win condition. That is perfectly fine and should be the case with any faction, only there is not one aspect of the Undead that make them weak. You cannot overpower constantly cycling ghouls and free skellies and roaches, cannot interrupt their expo and you'll have a hard time defending your own when they attack after having started theirs.
All you can hope for is for their heroes to stay at home in a tiny window in the mid game and hopefully get a chance to make use of the one level advantage you have, but good luck even destroying a shop or ziggurat

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>>2359062
And still all you manage to say is "buff cannoneer"
Maybe if I start ritualposting about riflemen you'll give w3 threads another chance

Anyone else been playing DOTA???

what's up with jaina showing up for 2 missions and then never being useable by us again

>>2360030
mage hero would trivialize the rest of the campaign, they're by far the best human option
also they needed her to fuck off somewhat early to kalimdor so arthas wouldn't kill her in dalaran

>>2360048
mage wouldn't be that great. He is strong in 1v1, he is not necessarily the "best hero" when it comes to campaign. Invul on arthas lets you cheese like every mission

>>2360048
for like the first three maps. no one would make an AM if heroes started at level 5

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>becomes an errand bitch boy for the overseer of the demons' undead orc puppet, who said that murdering your father and giving up your kingdom was a """test"""
Lmao. How exactly do you even cope in this situation?

>>2360585
he's seething extremely hard at the end of the campaign too, but kel'bro tells him to be patient, lich king foresaw the cuckening. Merely a temporary setback
>>2360152
>He is strong in 1v1, he is not necessarily the "best hero"
blizzard aoe slaps entire armies and water elemental(s) are insanely useful both for tanking and extra damage, the mana regen aura would synergize with arthas and he'd basically clear maps alone with neverending invincibility bubble
culling of stratholme? more like deleting of malganis

>>2360629
He already does that, you can just spawn camp melganis with arthas. You dont need an AM at all. There are so many mana items to pick up every mission the AM is redundant.

That said I sure do like jaina, too bad we never got the WC3+ like they promised.

the campaign should have let us buy a tavern hero for one mission a lot later on

>>2360885
Would have worked for the Arthas' merc mission up in Northrend.

>>2360955
the merc mission is just a tutorial on arthas skills and some items, a tavern hero wouldn't do anything in that mission. And taverns are a TFT invention

>>2361038
Wow

>>2360660
I wonder what crazy nonsense we could have got with a WC3 expansion pack made by not Blizzard. We could have had a Beyond the Dark Portal but they just refused cus they were making the MMO.

I think another expansion with some new units and heroes would be pretty cool

Heroes are extremely important in Warcraft 3. These are the playable heroes in the Reign of Chaos campaigns:
Human campaign:
Arthas
Jaina
Muradin
Undead campaign:
Arthas
Kelthuzad
Orc campaign:
Thrall
Grom
Cairn
Night Elf campaign:
Tyrande
Malfurion
Illidan

The Dreadlord is the only vanilla hero that is not playable in the Warcraft 3 campaign. All other archetypes are covered.

>>2361227
there are some fanmade ones but they're all shit

>>2361227
Diablo 2 is older than Warcraft 3 and that just received a new class and update.

>>2361312
Yeah but D2 resurrected sold millions and W3 fumbled hard because they left it all to chinks and malaysians instead of doing it in house from the beginning

>>2361320
afaik it was only malaysians and they did mostly just those ugly as fuck graphics and assets
it doesn't matter if they had made it in-house at blizz or not, the team working on the project wasn't getting funding and proper management, iirc there was less than five ppl left in it even before the game released

>>2361320
the same team did cnc and starcraft remastered, i think blizz just gave them retarded direction

>>2361499
>the same team did cnc and starcraft remastered
nope

Does anyone else think the nightelfs are really cute? I usually build an army of archers because the sound it makes when they die is so good

>>2361963
whatever you say Lacari

>>2361296
>We're finally getting naga as a playable faction
>It's reforged graphics exclusive

>>2361963
bara bears and talon twinks

>>2361296
I think fucking with MP balance any more would wreck the game. But having non-ladder non-competitive lobbies with High Elves/Blood Elves, Naga, and a Burning Legion faction? Holy sovl

>>2362222
I agree.

Still, I wonder if maybe getting like a factional merc camp building for each race might be interesting. Something like an embassy building with researchable choices which unlock certain trainable units for one specific choice. Like, say, an orc player choosing to build an embassy at t2 and getting access to the dark iron dwarves in some form of a unit after researching dark iron connections. And not being able to research the centaur nor goblin ones any more, for example. Might offer a way to plug a gap in your forces for a relatively high time and resource investment.

Dunno tho. The gameplay is probably too cobcise for this and the merc camps already fulfil this niche, however biasdly.

>>2362280
I'd like that but limited to respective factions, e.g. orcs can get demon orcs, UD can get skeleton archers, humans can get bandits, etc
>merc camps already fulfil this niche
yeah but only with gay units like ogres and lobsters

>>2362222
Holy soul what? There's plenty of custom maps full of horribly unbalanced factions that no one plays.
Reminds me of one dota custom map but with naruto characters where Itachi had a spell like much like Shadow Shaman's shackle, except it dealt 10x the damage and would persist until the opponent died
>>2362280
You'd be getting a whole new game entirely, and an element of complexity that, as much as AOE fags would try and deny, would just make the game too unbearable for most players. Warcraft III is unironically hard enough as it is (at a higher level).
At most we'll be getting a new hero (per faction but more likely Tavern) and MAYBE a new unit each within the next 10 years. 20 from now a new faction as well

>>2363212
>too much
I agree. Getting a new expansion's worth of units isn't going to happen. The gameplay is just too tight and not yet stale enough for a shake-up. Atm we are still at the
>what if we gave huntresses heavy armor?
>what if tanks could attack ground units?
stage of spicing. That's why I was aiming for a single unit, but a mechanic where you could choose that single unit for an up-front cost.

Even then doing something with merc camps might be better. Maybe having like access to rogue mercs of the factions on the map might be cool? Like a marketplace-ish merc barracks where units become available as the enemy goes up a tier? Like, playing against NE you get BE archer with stealth without marksman at T1, a corrupted dryad with immunity and poison, but no ablosh, and at T3 an exiled bear with no rejuv.

Eh, there'd be many ways of balancing it properly, but having interesting units become available at a marketplace-barracks as the players tech up might be a potential angle. Having access to a singular spellbreaker (or equivelant)with spellsteal might be neat as other races.

>>2363212
>Holy soul what?
Holy soul, that's it. Them adding these 3 factions in an official fashion would be soulful. It would reference the ingenuity of the original warcraft 3 the frozen throne, untainted by modern homosexuality and donutsteel OC trans dragon retardation. That would be soulful. There is nothing more to say.
>There's plenty of custom maps full of horribly unbalanced factions that no one plays.
and they can fuck off and so can you. OFFICIAL and done competently by people who get paid to do it so they care about the outcome? Holy sovl. You insufferable NIGGER.

>>2363283
>Them adding these 3 factions in an official fashion
>But without any balance in mind
My go-to insult is Indian but you're beyond that. To describe you, I'd go with stereotypical fat fuck American bootlicker of corporations, but I mean really fat, think that 500 pound life TV show, and really a slave to capitalism, one which might own a collection fashioned into an altar of sealed Funko Pop figurines without the intent to sell them.
You do understand that
1. No one currently working at Blizzard can or is even hired with the intent of them making "soulful" product
2. Custom maps I've mentioned all had hand-drawn and animated models of characters, all much more effortful than anything you'd find in Reforged
Rejecting content you mindlessly call "soulful" because it's not made by Corporation is the strangest thing I've never thought I'd read. Truly retarded behavior.

>>2363334
shut the fuck up you stupid shitskin nigger and fuck off back to r.eddit where you belong with your retarded takes.
They got original starcraft devs to work on the starcraft remaster and it turned out great, they outsourced w3 remaster to malaysia and got dogshit. You're making such retarded claims and comparisons I can smell the reek of ganges from your post

>>2363334
Perfect description of such posters

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Are there demons nearby?

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The most powerful playable heroes in Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos are Chaos Grom and Illidan.
Both forms of Arthas are also really damn good but Chaos Grom and Illidan are kind of Raid Boss tier.

>>2363743
Keep in mind that Paladin Arthas with Frostmourne has chaos damage and a very large amount of it. More than Grom and Illidan.
He's also invulnerable 75% of the time.
Grom would still kill him with micro though because of windwalk.

>>2363756
You're right. He was so powerful that he could solo both bases.

>>2363779
>gets one clicked with an item
oops!

I'm playing RoC and the story is so silly at times. These are in the mission where you free Illidan:
>These Barrow Deeps have remained untouched for nearly three thousand years. Still, there is no telling what creatures may have taken up residence after we sealed these tunnels shut.
>These explosive devices look to be of goblin design. The wily creatures must have hidden them here long ago. No matter, I'll make good use of them.
The latter is said by Tyrande INSIDE the prison section, behind 2 doors, one locked by magical mechanism and at least a dozen of elf guards.

>>2363856
tyrande's whole thing is talking with perfect confidence while being utterly wrong

>>2363861
There are other things, like Illidan calling Arthas human, as if he had ever seen one.

>>2363865
>>2363856
I definitely remember Thrall and Cairne (Bane?) walking through some caves saying "no one must have set foot here in thousands of years" when it was clearly not the case. Something like that.

>>2363916
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABtIfK1SwIU

>>2363856
>>2363865
Yeah there are a lot of cracks like that.
Metzen needed another guy who could correct him, like me, but I was only a child at the time and lived on the other side of the planet so I couldn't help him.

>>2363856
>>2363865
>>2363931
the map/level designer had to meet halfway with metzen's lore
obviously they didn't literally mean "no one must have set foot here in thousands of years", but in a fantasy setting this sounds far more grand than "woah this cave must be populated by at least 30 kobolds, 15 skeleton archers, 5 heretics, 3 harpies, a dragon, and a guardian wizard!!!"
and instead of having illidan say "what is this strange humanoid creature... are you an elf... without long ears... and with a pink skin... and you smell weird... very strange, you must be some sort of... demon... who do you worship??? Have you heard of the high elves???? I don't have eyesight anymore but I see through the spirit world and it says you are an evil being of undeath in humanoid form with a gastrointestinal energy system...", he just says "a human?" so the player gets the necessary context and can proceed with gameplay.
Imagine if you entered the cave and it was literally an empty map with nothing in it but rocks and corridors. Imagine if illidan stumbled all the time when running because he blind. That's just autism and taking things way too literally in a creative medium that heavily relies on the player filling in the gaps with their own imagination both in terms of graphics and storytelling

>>2363916
>>2363931
there is definitely silly stuff, like orcs see centaur fighting tauren in the first mission and Thrall says
>Those hideous creatures have the bodies of horses! Lok-tar Ogar!
like bruh, have you looked into a mirror before? and what about the bull creature? and why do you make it sound like you attack them because they are hideous horse creatures??

>>2363960
what a shit comparison, absolute nonsense to compare empty maps and illidan stumbling extremes to a simple dialogue not using a single word
fucking hell there are demons around, he is 10k years old, he is not going to be stuck up on "seeing" a pink round eared elf

>>2364041
>what a shit comparison, absolute nonsense
meant for >>2363856
>>2363916
>>2363931

>>2364041
Holy fucking shit go get checked you obnoxious insufferable autistic retard

>>2364041
I haven't played the campaigns in over a decade but you do seem to obsess and nitpick over the most meaningless details possible. You're going to ignore the fact that no peons were present on any of Thrall's ships during the first missions, but at the same time you're going to piss and shit yourself over Thrall calling centaurs hideous? As if Thrall was a human and perceived beauty in terms of human features? Humans are probably also hideous to orcs, so are elves.
This is an incredibly common trope in scifi and fantasy where multiple different races are involved. Do you think a mass effect Batarian perceives himself as hideous? Or a starcraft protoss? Or a d&d drow or githyanki?
Oh right, people with autism have a hard time accepting that others might have different opinions and worldviews.

>>2363926
This is incredible. Thank you

>>2363960
>heretics
Oh yeah, that was specifically the issue I had. As far as I'm aware there would have been no reason for a human(?) not from the Lordaeron expedition to be in Kalimdor at that time, and especially not one who does weird shit in unexplored caves. I just remembered that line in the mission from Thrall but not the actual inconsistency.
>>2364041
>Those hideous creatures have the bodies of horses! Lok-tar Ogar!
This also pissed me off extremely bad, but because the Orcs see two beast races in conflict and randomly decides one is more noble than the other, and subsequently start genociding Centaurs, then Harpies, then Quillboar etc who were merely existing on their own land. You know, same as they did in the Eastern Kingdoms and everywhere else they went. While simultaneously cutting down the Elves' sacred grove, killing demigods and drinking demon jizz. Fuck do I hate Orcs.

>>2364067
>but at the same time you're going to piss and shit yourself over Thrall calling centaurs hideous
this is in your head, but I guess there isn't much else in there if you say stupid shit like
>You're going to ignore the fact that no peons were present on any of Thrall's ships during the first missions
like what are you even about? this is the same bullshit as this >>2363960 retarded drivel
I am sorry that you guys >>2364060 >>2364062 can't understand this simple thing and feel this way but I used the word SILLY on purpose. not shit, silly.
I am not shitting or pissing myself over this, you spergs, I find these little things funny
what the fuck is wrong with you people jesus christ

>>2364077
>As far as I'm aware there would have been no reason for a human(?) not from the Lordaeron expedition to be in Kalimdor at that time
There are 3 human bandit mage model "Mystics" in Illidan's prison's library looking section. It's a bit out of place, but make sense that some wandering wizards end up in weird hidden magical places.

>>2364263
>It's a bit out of place, but make sense that some wandering wizards end up in weird hidden magical places
Nah man, it really doesn't. A group of wizards would not have set sail to another (unknown) continent to then stumble across the most magically important places featured in the warcraft 3 campaign. Brush it aside as random inconsistency and oversights or poor usage of models, but there's no justifying humans in Kalimdor, let alone in those specific locations

>>2364284
human* wizards, I should say

>>2364284
I don’t agree, if there is something that could end up anywhere then it’s a wizard.
Why would they need to sail in the first place? Some ancient elven artefact from before the Shattering teleported one to elven ruins in Kalimdor etc. You can have so many explanations with magic.
For me it’s steeper that the Night Elves would let them in there.

>>2364414
the Night Elves just sit in their forests and half their civilization is sleeping for thousands of years at a time, they couldn't be arsed to watch over the entire continent. It absolutely makes sense some stray wizards could find their way there.

>>2364758
>It absolutely makes sense some stray wizards could find their way there.
Yeah, but would the guards just let them in to live there?
Well, I guess they were all elf women and the mages had human male models...

>>2365009
>Yeah, but would the guards just let them in to live there?
We are approaching "what do they eat" and "where do they shit" territory dangerously fast.
STOP. OVERTHINKING. VIDEO. GAME. DESIGN.
They are there to be defeated by the player

>>2354440
In retrospective this shitass was small fish when compared to other franchises.

I loved this game. I was good enough to be ranked (top 1000) Orc spammer but thats hardly pro and the way Grubby micros it's like he is playing a totally different game with the focus on micro. I just played it like fantasy starcraft without cliffs.

My favorite thing about the game is how anti blobby it is. Like your armies are so small and even then you have them split up across the map doing different things. Very sweaty game, love it.

Some guy earlier complained about Raiders being useless, like holy shit dude they're so cheesy and strong.

>>2363856
The night elf campaign is kind of a mess compared to the rest.

The Arthas arc is the heart and soul of WC3.
The Orc is good too, manly tears ending cinematic.
The Elf campaign you just force yourself to finish. Kids dfucking loved Illidan though so what do I know.

>>2365385
in his own franchise he's small fish too. But that's only because in every new installment you need an even bigger and badder antagonist. At the moment of RoC's release he was fairly big fish

>>2365480
>Some guy earlier complained about Raiders being useless, like holy shit dude they're so cheesy and strong.
In RoC campaign.
I am aware they are good in MP, I played TFT multiplayer more than the rest of the game.

>Very sweaty game, love it.
Yes, the MP is very well put together, I also love it. It's one of the best RTS games in my opinion. Only Zero-K beats in pure gameplay and design, but just a very tiny little bit.

i'm fucking tired of undead and w3 players are the biggest cucks for not asking for nerfs
everything that you can complain about in other races is 10x as strong for ud
>nelf free moon juice?
ud heals by literally standing on the ground
>orc wolf harass is too annoying early?
ud can harass with summons without even using an ability (though he can if he chooses to)
>human expands too easily?
undead does it with just one worker and no units while simultaneously being able to attack your expo
good luck interrupting their expo
good luck harassing their main
good luck fighting on blight
good luck killing any of their heroes
good luck not getting 3x nuke
yea i'm mad fuck you so what

>>2365827
militia is way better than you're implying
i kinda agree though but mostly i would like to see frost nerfed to make punishing them much easier

>>2365827
>ud heals by literally standing on the ground
for 10 minutes
>ud can harass with summons without even using an ability (though he can if he chooses to)
he pays for it with gold
>undead does it with just one worker and no units while simultaneously being able to attack your expo
he pays for it with gold
how is this different from any other race
>good luck interrupting their expo
skill issue
>good luck harassing their main
skill issue
>good luck fighting on blight
why would you fight on blight, that's what UD wants
>good luck killing any of their heroes
skill issue
>good luck not getting 3x nuke
skill issue
>yea i'm mad fuck you so what
skill issue

>>2365869
and people wonder why rts is a dead genre lol

>>2365870
rts being a dead genre has literally nothing to do with undead game mechanics
if you told your post to someone new to the genre they'd say "what the fuck are you talking about you smelly shitskin fuck off and kill yourself already"

>>2365909
lol what an idiot

>>2366003
lol what a nigger

>>2365909
lmao

>>2365869
>for 10 minutes
Retard and scrub
>he pays for it with gold
Rather than mana which costs gold too idiot. If it weren't more gold efficient than literally anything else, all undead wouldn't use it. I even forgot to say that undead has abilities which not only deny those units but also heal them for it. Funny that
>how is this different from any other race
How is undead summoning 3 buildings with one worker different from any other race, you're asking me?
Just say you're retarded man

>ur a retard if you're not struggling against UD

Because you play at 2000 bnet elo and talk shit

undead isn't op and protoss isn't op either, you're just whining because you're bad
play undead if it's so good
>inb4 500 loss streak because bad at game in general

>>2366927
True.
Zerg is op

>>2354319
memes

>>2356663
>I am playing it right now after 20 years. It might have been a mistake to do it on normal but this shit isn't challenging or anything at all.
okay, yeah, unlike ROC the TFT campaign on hard is squeezing my balls a bit

And that's a good thing! With 2P campaigns you can go up to insane and impossible difficulty levels. Then you'd be crafting with war.

did arthas put his penis in jaina

>>2372317
>When Jaina was 18, she and her father Daelin attended Prince Arthas' induction into the Knights of the Silver Hand in Stormwind City. Shortly after, Arthas visited Dalaran for a few months under the pretense of studying history so that he could get an opportunity to court Jaina. During a ride outside the city, the two kissed for the first time and began a romantic relationship, much to Kael'thas' chagrin. They initially kept their affair secret from the public in order to avoid feeding the rumor mill, but over the following year, Jaina began visiting Capital City during holidays. At Hallow's End, after Jaina used a fire spell to ignite the wickerman to the crowd's delight, she and Arthas retreated to the prince's rooms and had slept together for the first time. Afterward, Jaina promised Arthas that she would never deny him.
hueg sluut

>>2372733
>kissed
>slept in the same massive bed
>denied him at stratholme despite saying she would never deny him
that proves nothing

>>2372733
damn this nigga's headcanon is real spicy, peak mental illness

>>2363856
The super gay answer is that Illidan met a human once a bazillion years ago. The sane and sensible answer that got retconned is that Illidan was given a summary of events.

>>2356608
no you just suck.
>Heroes are just too good
lvl1 stats arent much higher than tier 1 units, much less a group of them
>Heroes are faster than other units
only slightly at open. see above
>Town Portal is a get out of jail free card
but also costs 350 gold. its also essential for saving your base when attacked.
>losing a unit is extra painful because that's EXP for the enemy hero
git gud at micro. its literally the main aspect of the game

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>>2372852
Uhm ackshully, sweaty, it's Christie Golden's headcannon, ok?!
>>2372812
>At Hallow's End, after Jaina used a fire spell to ignite the wickerman to the crowd's delight, she and Arthas retreated to the prince's rooms and had sex for the first time. Afterward, Jaina promised Arthas that she would never deny him. Jaina was subsequently invited to spend the winter in Capital City and began being treated as a member of the royal family, as everyone assumed that she and Arthas would marry and have children soon.
ur waifu a wanton for the princely peen

>Malfurion, Maiev and Kael ruin Illidan's plan to use the Eye of Sargeras to melt Northrend(somehow this would kill the Lich King???)
>So to escape Kil'jaeden's wrath Illidan runs to the closest place known of high demonic influence, Outland
He isn't too bright, is he?

also
>Kil'jaeden wants to kill LK for breaking the pact that binds LK to him after Hyjal
>there are still demons like dreadlords and doomguards in Scourge armies when you play the TFT Nelf/Belf campaigns
ok, I guess dreads are just double agent cunts and the others are under their command or they were just enslaved or something but still

jaina and arthus did not have sex she is a pure maiden, i don't give a shit about what some woman said in some shitty book

Just finished RoC and then TFT campaigns again. Took a couple weeks, what an epic journey. It really holds up. Game developers back then actually had grit and passion instead of a 9 to 5 slop factory job.
It was always weird for me how there was no Orc campaign in TFT, like the story hasn't even touched on their presence at all aside from some demon orc enemies. I wonder if this was dictated by story or production budget and timeline

>>2373335
No one tell him about Thrall, Kalec, Pained and the Kirin Tor Bicycle.

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>>2373541

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFgCS5-QGVU

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>subtitles continually use full names (malfurion, grommash) but the audio uses nicknames (furion, grom)
unplayable.

>>2354246
If Kil'Jaeden was so strong why didn't he kill Arthas himself?

>>2382715
is this a Reforged change? I'm pretty sure the original campaigns have accurate subtitles

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>>2382798
apparently, picrel is screenshot i just took vs a youtuber playing the campaign in the classic client

i appreciate that the reforged client (even without the reforged graphics which I can't use because I only own the original game) supports my ultrawide monitor but this tickles my 'tism every time lol

>>2373354
Rexxar is the Orc campaign.

>>2384090
hardly a campaign when there's no base building. It was like a proto-world of warcraft series of maps, only that one battle where you could train units for free from Thrall's base was a semi-strategy stage (and it sucked balls, Proudmoore just kept spawning massive waves of defenses)

>>2384194
There's a lot of missions which don't have base buildings. Since when is that a requirement lol? No base missions tend to be more fun too, like Maiev or Kael in the dungeons.
Yes, it's proto WoW. Doesn't change the fact it replaces traditional campaign. Does the job of familiarizing the player with all the new additions in TFT all the same as other three campaigns.

>>2384449
>There's a lot of missions which don't have base buildings.
There are no campaigns that consists entirely of no basebuilding missions except for the Rexxar mini-not-really-campaign-but-a-wow-prototype
>Since when is that a requirement lol?
Since I said so
>No base missions tend to be more fun too, like Maiev or Kael in the dungeons.
Cool opinion, I don't share it. They were alright but the peak Warcraft experience was and always has been basebuilding missions

>>2384602
dumb autist

Why has a game never been able to match the success of WC3's customs scene? It infused the game (and sales) with so much longevity. It seems like companies are leaving money on the table for some reason. Integrated AI could also make it easier to create code for maps than ever.

I played custom maps to death back in the day, I'm amazed I passed high school considering I was a junior when TFT came out.

>>2382715
>>2383239
There is ONE instance where the original game said Grom's full name of Grommash, it's when mannoroth met him after he drank the blood. But it's the only time.

>>2388527
The answer is, as always: jews.
What you're describing is pro-consumer. We don't do that anymore.

If wisp dispels and deletes skeletons or wolves does it give xp to night elf?

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I unironically dreamt about wc3 the past night, they announced wc4 and it was mostly the same game but with visual and some QOL improvements but also a forth race, pandaren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g-wBrU9keE

>>2388527
>It seems like companies are leaving money on the table for some reason
That's where you're sadly wrong.

>>2354436
wow the mass killing was a mass killing?

>>2389416
Yes.

>>2390553
>but also a forth race
Wow, you really hate night elves to erase them like that.

Feel free to visit

>>>/vr/12543902

So, anyone aware of the Legacy version that Blizzard just realeased?

>>2390966
I saw. Took a decade, but i can finally play LotR adventure RPG again

>>2390966
too little too late

>>2356685
>There's definetely some nostalgia involved, but you shouldn't go into wc3 expecting a great narrative or story. There's not a lot of canvas anyway for the writers to work with since every map has only an handful of lines of dialog. It's like expecting a great literary work from twitterposts
after replaying the starcraft 1 and warcraft 3 campaigns this is very true. obviously it hit different back in the day but i kind of built up the remembered emotional beats in my mind and it's kind of jarring to see a grand event in the lore play out with a couple melodramatic words and a few pixels batting at each other lol

>>2391154
StarCraft vanilla is still kino, Brood War sucks, it helps to dissociate the two.

Warcraft 3 is poorly written but then again what other fun game let's you indulge into the high fantasy genre and all it's tropes from the perspective of nonstop clashing armies instead of a mere party of heroes going into a dungeon as with all RPGs?
It's not great but it's the best we got.

>>2391154
I just love how the Undead campaign lets you truly be a rotten bastard. Arthas going full Lich King in Frozen Throne is kino, while his two main subordinates are genuinely loyal to him.

I felt robbed of a human campaign in frozen throne. To call it a human campaign is dishonest, just gay elfs and mermaids doing bitch errands to that edgy faggot illidan

>>2361298
You play a dreadlord during a frozen throne mission but for some reason it has Doom instead of Inferno. Pisses me off I could barely play with my favorite hero in the campaign

>>2391721
because Varimathras is a special snowflake dreadlord who betrayed both his own race and the demons. So it would make sense that he can't summon infernals, but they gave him Doom that summons a Doomguard instead... so he's probably just special and that's it, they wanted him "different".
Doom gives damage instead of a short stun, so technically speaking it gives you "more" than inferno.
Also varimathras has a lot more mana and intelligence stat than a regular UD dreadlord, probably to make him more of a supporting mage character for sylvanas (since she can't get the Lich in the campaign). Both dark ranger and dreadlord are cunning agi stacking characters, so they made these changes to make these heroes have different roles and perks

>>2393248
>probably to make him more of a supporting mage character for sylvanas
Him having rain of fire (circular aoe continuous damage) instead of carrion swarm (cone shaped skillshot damage) also supports this thesis

>>2358539
Because the Frozen Throne expansion makes hard mode actually hard.
The mission where you have to protect helpless Illidan sealing multiple portals for example.
The demons could rip through all 100 food supply worth of units and 30 towers you built.

>>2395824
And how does that make it the intended experience? It sounds like it's not intended at all for the player to suffer through all of that.

>>2354440
FEAR ME AND THIS PEAR

We watching Grubby's tournament in a few days?

>>2402709
As someone who was very active in the heyday of Warcraft III, its always funny to me that Grubby somehow rebranded himself to be le hecking wholesome streamerino when back in those days he was quite literally calling people gay and nigger as insults on battle.net non stop, granted we all did back in the day.

why does grubby love ai so much?

>>2403889
He's in his 40s, it's his job, and you get deplatformed now.
>>2402709
Making a tournament of either complete newcomers or average players is such a good idea to try and pull in new people. It's good of blizzard to put up the prize money too.

>>2354923
>my steak was too steaky

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fun tourney

>>2402709
ye

>>2403947
while you were whittling away at your little drawings he studied the blade(master)

>>2404345
wait its already going? They had like 2 weeks to train

>>2404345
sucks that she got cheesed by the goblin laboratory being there

>>2403976
>>2403889
Yutub algo is fuckin brutal. Only way to get boosted is to become a redditor

Gamer culture is under clear threat

>>2404689
I'm sure they were told beforehand, still 2 weeks is plenty time to learn that gold is mined in gold mines. Half of them didn't take the tournament seriously at all and barely prepared, all the while Yamato and Hera were nearing 1.5k MMR on w3c at some point.

>>2404689
they had almost a month

on the one hand im happy for yamato, it's cringe that he's such a good player and lost every match so far. on the other hand im a bit sorry for pohx whose autism i envy

>>2404922
? only merry / dante didn't try everyone else is putting out great fun games

>strongest tier 1 in the game, the only one that a pro player can very successfuly mass
>strongest tier 3, destroyers are just a stronger version of bears mixed with dryads
>strongest hero abilities, 75% single target + aoe + slow nuke
>strongest items, can instantly train 2 footies for 75 gold
>strongest base layout, can draw out games by 30 min because they're impossible to finish in an undead base
>can start an expo with infinite summons and still have enough time to interrupt yours before your camp is even finished
Wtf that race won the tournament?

>>2360629
>he's seething extremely hard at the end of the campaign too, but kel'bro tells him to be patient, lich king foresaw the cuckening. Merely a temporary setback
And then Arthas goes to Kalimdor, meets Illidan and tells him about the Skull of Gul'dan that allows the latter to go and slay Tichondrius in his new Metamorphosis Form (thus also ending up massively weakening the Legion). Talk about roundabout way of getting even with the Dread Lord.

>>2363737
So I replayed the OG RoC campaign and from the 2nd to last NElf mission I got the feeling that while Illidan wanted power, he was genuine about proving Furion and Tyrande they were wrong about him (especially Furion) and actually wanted to show he's a good guy.

And now I'm replaying TFT and in all honesty, RTS Illidan actually wants to do good while gaining power at the same time, only for that meddling Maiev and his brother doublecrossing his attempt at melting Icecrown and sinking the Lich King.

>>2363743
>>2363756
>>2363779
>>2363855
You are forgetting that Metamorphosis Illidan is in perma-demon form, so he has no time limit.
Also he has evasion, so some damage is mitigated, but also he has Mana Burn, so he can burn away both Arthas's and Grom's mana pools unless Arthas immediately goes invulnerable or Grom uses Bladestorm to avoid getting his mana burned out.
At this point all three are heavy contestants here.
Still the most OP heroes are Archimonde with Mannoroth and Tichondrius being 2nd and 3rd.

>>2406721
he gets a bit weird in TFT desu

>>2407059
Yeah.
>Slaughters a NElf village after awakening the Nagas and then tries to torch the ships so that Maiev can't go after him.
>Gets the Eye of Sargeras but after a lot of shenanigans it blows up due to Furion, Maiev and Kael.
>Saves Tyrande, buries the hatched with his brother...only for Maiev to go after him and cage him.
>Is saved by Kael and Vashj.
>Helps the Draenei and becomes the ruler of Outland only for Kil'Jaden to knock on his doorstep.
>Is forced to plea for a second chance to eliminate the Lich King in order to free himself from Kil'Jaden.
>Sadly fails due to Arthas-ex-machina.

Then again he should've been brutally honest back at the isles in the 5th NElf mission and said he wants to use the Eye to blow up the Lich King in Icecrow Glacier.

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>>2365870
here's the actual reason

>>2403976
>and you get deplatformed now
That's the thing, I'm wondering why it hasn't happened yet, considering cancel culture people love digging up graves for le hecking racism specially if it means bringing down someone who is currently enjoying success.

>>2406600
Also played by the current aoe2 champion.
>destroyers are just a stronger version of bears mixed with dryads
Lmao
>strongest items, can instantly train 2 footies for 75 gold
Militia is better although militia is much harder to use.

Frost attack is my main gripe with undead. It's what makes attacking their base so punishing and what drags out games so much. Of course acolytes are very vulnerable but the slow is utterly debilitating. I don't think it's the best thing UD has but it is their most tedious thing.
Second would be statues. The mana regen is massive and it also provides undead with crazy sustain, particularly when coupled with unholy aura. I don't think any other race has regen even close to comparable. The flexibility of morphing into destroyers, which are a fantastic unit too, makes them easily s tier.

>>2407368
>Second would be statues. The mana regen is massive
hey, Human can basically match that with a level 3 Archmage, since lvl2 brilliance is almost as good as spirit touch

>>2407461
I'm glad we agree that statue regen is absurdly strong.

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>>2407368
>Also played by the current aoe2 champion.
Yamato suffered more from being a boomer who downed 3 redbulls. He was in great shape until the SHAKES started coming in. He floated a lot of gold but it's bullshit that Hera made much bigger mistakes that simply couldn't be punished because lolundead.
>Lmao
it's a t2 unit that gets a massive upgrade at t3 that
>heals (better than druid since he only gets to do it once per life span because of shit mana pool)
>restores mana
>dispels (hence mixed with dryad) which also grants it crazy HP and Mana

>Militia is better although militia is much harder to use
I'd compare militia to ghouls and it's no contest. Still,
>you don't jeopardize lumber income with skelllies
>it takes a while for militia to arrive to a battlefield vs instantaneous skellies
>skellies have way better synergy with typical UD abilities- actually gains something from the DK aura and can be an infinite mana well for Lich
>skellies require no training time or supply
>who gives a shit if you lose some skellies, meanwhile losing a couple militia delays tech and loses a lot of lumber in the long run
Only thing militia have on them is movement speed and an average of 3 dps
>The flexibility of morphing into destroyers, which are a fantastic unit too, makes them easily s tier.
So why laugh at my bear comment?
>>2407461
Yeah fuck off

>>2407553
I wanted yamato to win. EIther would have deserved it but yamato really grinded and was the underdog.

Destroyers and bears fulfill completely different roles. Destroyers are more expensive, more pop, flying, magic damage, and light armor. While they are comparable in that they are both core late game units with bears being your necessary healing and tanking and destroyers being your dispel these are, again, utterly different roles.
I don't think it's fair to conflate statues with destroyers. While statues obviously morph into destroyers they cannot morph back, unlike bears. Their light armor makes them quite vulnerable to target fire and easy to counter, despite their large health pool, which means you simply cannot mass them in the way you often see bears massed - headhunters, riflemen, archers, and even fiends are simply too cost effective against them.
Much like statues, they are a key element of your composition, because of dispel and high magic damage, but a necessarily small one.
If you consider them overpowered on account of their stats then you must also consider gryphons even more overpowered since they do more damage, are cheaper, and have more hp.
Personally, I find it quite annoying that my only real dispel if I play undead is tied to such an expensive late game unit, even if it is a very powerful unit and completely worth the investment.
>I'd compare militia to ghouls and it's no contest. Still,
That's fair but bare in mind that peasants are much cheaper and half the pop. Ghouls are certainly great and both these things are why UD and Human expand so easily. Milita are also always there whereas investment in ghouls wanes.
>skellies
Are also good but expire, are very fragile, and are vulnerable to dispel. They provide undead with tremendous tempo but I really wouldn't consider them overpowered on account of these weaknesses.
>who gives a shit if you lose some skellies
Against night elf you can easily give a lot of xp early by relying on them.

>>2407600
>>2407553
I'd add that destroyer dispel isn't as easy to use as dryad or priest even if it is much better.

I also do think undead is stronger than the other races.
Orc I think is the weakest right now, being so reliant on early harass and stealing to prevent the stronger races from doing anything at all before a strong t2 push. Night elf is pretty well balanced albeit very annoying to play against. Human is comparable to undead in the way they have strong early tempo, because of militia, allowing for a fast expansion into powerful late game units. However, unlike undead, their heroes are lacking and statues plus aura is a much smaller investment than priests. Notably, heal salves are pitiful compared to both past the 8 minute mark where you are paying 33.3 gold to cast rejuvenation. All of this without even mentioning blight and ghoul cycling.

Undead is one of the harder races and I think because of that their imbalance has been allowed to slide for a long time. The inability to really punish them like you can every other race is my main issue. While you can take their creep camps and expand to outscale them if they make a mistake this is much less direct than simply destroying a few burrows etc, killing some wisps etc, or simply breaking buildings. More often than not, trying to do this against undead is just inviting coil nova sniping so they can catch up while fighting on blight under necropolis + towers just to kill a shop.

>>2407600
>>2407600
>I wanted yamato to win. EIther would have deserved it but yamato really grinded and was the underdog.
>I also do think undead is stronger than the other races.
As far as I'm concerned even tyler deserved at least one victory v Hera. Playing vs undead at that level especially requires training akin to practicing vs specific types of cheese (a la vs pala rifle or solo warden or early pushes etc), only for undead it's part of their core gameplan. Never mind coil nova and the likes. I was real pissed that Yamato lost. Anyway
>Destroyers and bears fulfill completely different roles
I mean, ultimately, sure, but generally, as it relates to their race's gameplan and build etc, they simply are better bears, more so in terms of building you wincon around them WHILE not being completely vulnerable until t3 like druids are, being actually helpful in t2 battles unlike bears who are walking healpots whom you have no choice but to walk back immediately after rejuv, AND being able to reasonably support an actual army of fiends, unlike in the NELF situation where you have to make do with 4 archers and 2 dryads.
>gryphons
The difference is that for gryphs you are only able to build aviaries at t3 and still wait a while to train them. Also stats were not brought up as much as statues/destroyers' crazy abilities.
>ghouls
Yeah, I don't know, some faggot on /v/ said something like "next, they'll say ghouls are the best tier1 unit". Fucker must have been trolling. Depends on the strat, sure, but ghouls with auras are always great even if you don't invest in upgrades.
>half the pop, double the cost
they also gather twice as much wood so it's not really a worthwhile comparison
>skellies are vulnerable to dispel
who's gonna have t1 dispell or I should fuck up my creep route and lose valuable time fighting a strong camp to buy a priest? and spend twice the money the UD spends on a skelly? further down the road the skellies are just walking mana pots anyway

>>2407606
>>2407629
>Undead is one of the harder races and I think because of that their imbalance has been allowed to slide for a long time. The inability to really punish them like you can every other race is my main issue. While you can take their creep camps and expand to outscale them if they make a mistake this is much less direct than simply destroying a few burrows etc, killing some wisps etc, or simply breaking buildings. More often than not, trying to do this against undead is just inviting coil nova sniping so they can catch up while fighting on blight under necropolis + towers just to kill a shop.
Yeah this is the worst. Hera is great as far as a player of his experience goes, but he would never have gotten this far if not playing undead.
Yamato was floating thousands of gold which is a reasonably big mistake, but the nigga had to manage 20+ peasants which made him vulnerable to attacks (on maps where shredder isn't available or is hard to get btw). All the while Hera Hera lost all the fights prior to getting lvl3 coil nova and his expansions timings were much worse.
I guess what I'm getting at is that people shit on human too much, it's likely the most difficult races to be effective with (while playing efficiently, I'm not talking about palarifle or one base rifle casters). Undead is the same way other than not being vulnerable to attacks and being able to relax while spending gold and fixing their army comps.
I'm a night elf player btw so don't @ me

>>2407629
>you are only able to build aviaries at t3
Wrong, they require t2 and a lumber mill. You seem to have forgotten about dragonhawks.
>Also stats were not brought up as much as statues/destroyers' crazy abilities.
You directly compared them to bears which are just a stat ball.
>but generally, as it relates to their race's gameplan and build etc, they simply are better bears
Again, bears are a core unit you mass because they are a stat ball whereas destroyers are dispel dps. Their light armor makes them very vulnerable to a host of cheap units, and particularly dryads.
Destroyers are really a spellcasting unit not one you can mass. To that extent, you only make two or three of them, completely unlike gryphons and bears.
Destroyers wont win you the game unless your other pieces are in place.
>next, they'll say ghouls are the best tier1 unit
There is a strong argument that they are, I agree.
Having an economy/combat unit, especially one so cost effective, is a huge reason why undead are so strong.
>it's not really a worthwhile comparison
I disagree. If milita did not have a timer and a cooldown, it would be far stronger than ghouls. Compare two militia fighting to one ghoul: it is no comparison. Milita provides human with the opportunity for a greater and cheaper spike but a much more shortlived one. The fact they turn back into peasants and can powerbuild also makes them better for fast expansions but generally summoning is easily the best way of building.
>who's gonna have t1 dispell
Against undead? If you can, you should.
>fuck up my creep route to buy a priest?
It depends a lot on map and race but insinuating that this isn't a valid idea is just ridiculous. The ability to instantly delete skeletons suddenly means that a core undead tool is just free xp and provides great tempo for you, but it isn't effortless to pull off and the shadow priest is fragile. Even so, it only needs to be relevant until you get dryads, priests, or shamans.

>>2407629
Hera was the favorite from the start imo and I would have liked to see him do worse. I'm glad he dropped to the lower bracket, at least, because that did keep things interesting. Overall, it was a very good tournament. Tyler1 was likely disappointed.
>>2407633
Yamato didn't know what to do with his lead. I think really the fatigue of the day was getting to him. Hera is used to playing ridiculous endurance best of 9, 75 minute aoe2 matches which always gave him a massive advantage.

I think I would say human is one of the easier races. Human has great lategame units and doesn't rely on heroes as much as other races. They do have to manage more units than most and milita aren't easy to use. They have great towers and walls ontop of milita for defensive tools too.
If you come from more classic rts, I'd say human is the easiest because you kind of can just take an expansion, play sim city, and then mass lategame units until pretty high mmr where people know how to utilize the map better.
I suppose if you don't come from class rts then it's easy to feel differently. I generally take for granted the basics of train workers, build a base, make units, and go attack but a league player might be more comfortable with creeping, levelling ,and items etc.

How difficult it is to get into WC3 for someone who never played RTS?

I've been watching WC3 matches, tournaments and streamers like Grubby for years now despite having NEVER played and I decided to finally get into it this year.

I'm undecided on which race to play as but I'm currently inclined to Night Elf because it seems to allow players the most freedom and creativity whereas the others seem to be a lot more flowcharted, specially Undead where every match plays the exact same. Is this right?

>>2409188
Very. Skill level and number of smurfs is too high for you to wing it and get anywhere.

>>2407085
Yeah and in the first few missions when you play as Maiev he is being an absolute dickhead, gloating about them dying beneath the rubble of the tomb and such shit.

>>2409188
if you've been watching a lot you will already have a huge knowledge head start
the whole point of the grubby invitational is to illustrate how you can be new, even with zero rts experience, and still play the game
it will take a while to get used to movement and the flow of the game but the main reason wc3 is hard to get into is even the bad players left are still quite good because the game is ancient

>>2409263
Considering he was trapped for 10K years by Maiev, this one part is kinda understandable for him to be a dickhead.

>>2409188
>I'm undecided on which race to play as but I'm currently inclined to Night Elf because it seems to allow players the most freedom and creativity whereas the others seem to be a lot more flowcharted, specially Undead where every match plays the exact same. Is this right?
Not right at all. Night elf is the one race with only one viable build, and it suffers the most from not hitting your timings right.
It is also (although there's not a lot of shared baseline fundamentals) the most unorthodox race in terms of not only general mechanics but also game plan.
Undead maybe looked same-y, but it makes a big difference whether you fast expo or not. There's a mass ghouls strat and a fiends + statues one and both are fine, and then to add to that you have a large pool of viable heroes. It's maybe the only race where any starting hero can be competitive.
For the first few weeks though you'll have bigger things to worry about than build diversity. You'll be playing rifle casters for months before trying to figure out another build.

>>2408517
>Destros
I was only thinking in terms of the nelf matchup where you are encouraged to mass them to counter bears, and in that case they certainly feel like a better druid, but yeah you're right.
>Aviary
My bad
>Ghouls vs militia
As far as fast expos go, sure, militia is better, but in the grand scheme of things, if you take into account scaling, synergy with your typical army and auras, even long term viability in terms of regen, resource management etc, it's no contest.
Also, like you said, I'd much rather clear a mine with ghouls and cycle them back then bring a single solitary acolyte to summon an entire base, than build a town hall with 5 orange health peasants and watch as the litch's mummified cock hardens upon loading up his holy nova.
>troll priests
Yeah again, of course you get them if you can but it's a pretty big investment to make and a race shouldn't have a 150g item which reads: cost your opponent 195g 10l and 2f. Don't even get me started on how much you lose if you detonate 2 wisps on them that early in the game

>>2409376
I kind of agree most night elf units are very situational and reactionary.
Even your main hero choices, warden and demon hunter, are relatively similar compared to dreadlord and death knight or archmage and paladin.
>>2409188
Undead certainly has options. You don't see a lot of temple of the damned play but it isn't useless. If you were watching the Grubby tournament, we never saw gargoyles at all but they are a good unit. Hera was focusing on the basics and core mechanics while completely ignoring a lot of game knowledge. Even now, I doubt he could tell you what necromancers can do.
In my opinion, you should try all the races before settling on one. It will give you a better understanding of how to fight them too.

>>2409392
If your opponent is massing destroyers (more than 3) then it is a free invitation to mass archers and dryads. Archers being so fragile is somewhat annoying but they are cheap, low food, and good damage and you probably have two idle ancients of war to pump them out quickly without even sacrificing bears.

I don't play much night elf but I would be curious about how faerie dragons and hippogryphs work against them. Ancient of wind doesn't seem to get used a lot despite faerie fire being orb of corruption.
>Ghouls vs militia
Imo the balance between these is fine it's really the other races which lack these tools. Ancients offer their own advantages but burrows are terrible.
Militia is harder to use, for sure, but I really think you are underrating them. Your town hall is usually idle after teching anyway and there is always the potential to buy a shredder, which is generally efficient in long games anyway.
Ghouls, unholy aura, and blight are better for creeping. I feel like even with priests, my regen is worse as human and orc is just terrible.
>rod
The shadow priest does stay and do other things. If you keep him alive, he is easily a great investment. If he dies after just two dispels, it depends on how many ghouls that cost them. He can't be replaced easily but a few skeletons and even one ghoul is a good trade and undead wont have a lot of ranged that early.
It depends entirely on the map though. Some mercenary camps are too well defended whereas others can be taken at level 1.

Wisp detonations can be good at level 1 to get an early level 2 but otherwise, yeah, I hate detonating my wisps. If the opponent commits to a big fight, they can swing it heavily in your favor, particularly if they are crypt lord, which provides tempo you can't really measure in just numbers.
I get that it feels very frustating to have undead attack your base forcing you to detonate wisps to defend but you cannot do the same thing at all because going near their base is just bad.

>>2409422
>>2409446
>Heroes
>Archers, Dryads and Wind
Yeah I was really hopeful when they changed POTM and Hunts that a big revamp is coming. I enjoy KOTG and try to make it work but you're simply handicapping yourself.
Ultimately, it's an issue of most nelf units being subpar which forces you into a playstyle of early aggression and delaying theirs until your turn 3 push, and DH/Warden + Naga just seem to work best to that end.
With this in mind it's unfeasible to build towards what is essentially an all in with bears and at some point decide to shift to Wind. I've had some success with a quick change to mass dryads when my double bestiary opponent surprised me with wyverns, but he did have the opportunity to finish me- he was just bad. I could have scouted better but the point stands that nelf is just not as adaptive, and even if you scout correctly and are able to change plans, you're still ~1k gold down with druid training, 1-2 druids and t3 by the time you can figure out if your opponent seeks to hard counter you.
>Ghouls and militia
Yeah I mean they both have their uses which is why I said from the start that's it's not really a worthwhile comparison. The point I was getting to is that at any rate, undead does all human does, only cheaper and easier, hence Hera being a cocksucker and Yamato deserving the win. My nigga Simply as well.
>Troll priests advantage
This would all be fine if only you were able to capitalize on your advantage and push UD after failed push. As it stands, they have plenty time to capitalize and even gain an advantage if they don't mess up their expo too bad.
It's a lot of UD seething and Nelf coping on my end, I understand.

>human is easy for RTS players
Sort of but not really. As opposed to AOE, you suffer a lot from building ONE extra peasant or losing him can fuck you up a lot, not to mention accounting for maps where shredder is available or not, or even how easy it is to get it. It's just an extra step human has to take as opposed to undead
>Burrows are the worst
Yeah it seems like they get fucked the most. I think it comes down to blizz for some reason balancing half the races around units and the other half around heroes. Well, again, except for undead.
I wonder if they'd decide to give HU and UD Agi heroes if they ever thought to add new heroes. That'd shake everything up

>>2409671
I do agree that bears are mandatory for nelf in games which don't end early because otherwise you have no meaty units. Mountain giants aren't viable and huntresses don't scale well.
I do think that you always want some archers because they are such cheap dps and a little target firing can heavily shut down air, especially with the range upgrade. I get the impression that you idle your ancients of war after the early game, which I often see nelfs do since dryad and bear seem like straight upgrades over archer and huntress.
Your opponent always expects bears so you have to anticipate their counters.
Wind is a luxury for counter units. I do think faerie fire and dragons can be great value, if you can afford the building.
>undead
Doesn't have spellbreakers, knights, gryphons, or mortars. Statues are way better than priests, that is true, but the races aren't similar outside of having hybrid economy/military units. Undead relies massively on its heroes for dps and in general whereas human does much less.
>if only you were able to capitalize on your advantage and push UD after failed push.
This is always what the problem with undead boils down to which is tied to the frost effect.
Unfortunately every match against undead is longer and you just have to be patient, take creeps and outscale them. At least DH and warden are great scaling heroes.
>>2409676
Easy or hard is mostly for beginners where +/- 1 peasant doesn't matter. It is an extra step but ghoul micro isn't trivial as they are very fragile and melee.
>orc
Is really built around early aggro. You are forced to basically cheese to be competitive. Tauren buffs helped but it's still true. They do have great heroes.

>>2410384
>I do think that you always want some archers because they are such cheap dps and a little target firing can heavily shut down air, especially with the range upgrade. I get the impression that you idle your ancients of war after the early game, which I often see nelfs do since dryad and bear seem like straight upgrades over archer and huntress.
I always get 4 archers at the most and almost never get the upgrade. They just don't seem that impressive to me other than to maybe distract the enemy a little bit when I'm cheesing early game. AOW I usually use for creeping during T2 after my early harass
>UD relies on heroes
I wouldn't say they rely on hero so much as they have very strong heroes on top of very strong armies. It's not like a Warden or WW BM opening where you play a glorified MOBA and the heroes do most of the job.
But yeah, generally I agree with you.

>>2411654
5 archers is the same pop as 2 destroyers and substantially less resources and they will handily dispatch them. The range upgrade is only really necessary if your opponent is keeping destroyers out of range and microing well. Range helps a lot with trading in skirmishes and target firing efficiently. Imo archers are one of the best t1 units which remain relevant far longer than most. They lack the punch of headhunters, true, but don't underestimate the damage they can do, particularly against light armor, and their range makes them much easier to use.
Don't expect them to hurt heroes much though.
>I wouldn't say they rely on hero
They absolutely do later.
Undead without lich is missing so much power. Fiends have such a garbage animation, ghouls are fragile and melee, their spellcasters do terrible damage, and aboms are just a healthbar. DK + lich nuking to snipe units and avoid a real engagement before t3 is how undead has to play after t1, where ghouls are all you need. This skirmishing style is why they have tools like frost nova/armor, disease cloud, and persistent slow regen.
Even with destroyers, the undead army is poor without heroes. Their damage is worse than any other 5 pop unit. Of course, they have orb of annihilation but even still they can't be described as a nuking unit like chimera or gryphons.
It's all about wearing away at you without taking losses.

That said I agree about t1. Playing dk is much more standard than blademaster, warden, or even demon hunter. If it goes sufficiently well, then they can close out the game with just ghouls, dk, and a level 1 lich to slow and snipe hero while ghouls rape everything.
Coil is very obnoxious - it feels like such a free way to snipe weaker units, like archers, ontop of healing the lich and aboms. With dh you can keep their mana at 0 though.

>>2412085
>Archers
Maybe I should give them a more involved try. I always thought that they were bad or I just plain suck at using them. The latter may still be true but it can also be that I just train too few of them.
My strat is usually to solo hero harass just to stop an expo or cheese some workers and in many cases it's better to leave the archers at home anyway if you go that route.
>Undead without lich is missing so much power.
Sure, but that's the case with any race, maybe less so with human but still. Undead isn't like orc or elf where their comp is garbage until t3 and they have to play MOBAs. They have good late game comps and carry themselves really well early as well is what I'm saying. Though yes, you're generally right

>>2413685
Archers are pretty hard to use because they are so frail but I still think that they are easier than ghouls.
Compare them to dryads, which I am certain you make.
>more dps
>longer range (with upgrade)
>cheaper
>way more effective hp vs piercing and siege
>but much less against normal and heroes
>dryads are spell immune
>dryads are faster
>dryads have slow poison
>dryads have abolish magic
>dryads share upgrades with bears
Dryads aren't a direct upgrade. In terms of raw damage and just being a stat stick, archers are better. Their normal armor coupled with Elune's grace makes them surprisingly tanky given their small hp pool.
Just to demonstrate, against piercing they have
>275 hp
>Elune's grace = 65% damage
>275/0.65 = 423
>then normal armor
>423/0.75 = 564
>effective hp against piercing compared to 425/1.5 = 283 for dryad
Rounding makes the game work not exactly like this but they are fantastic against piercing units.
Fiends do 14.25 dps vs archer's 11.3 although I think the reality is even better for archer due to animations. Fiends have a lot more hp 550 or 733 effective but they are also way more expensive and 3 food. Dryads are, however, terrible into fiends due to being unarmored.

They are very weak against units like ghouls, militia, and wolves but this is really only a problem early since they have long range and are cheap later. Blademaster eats them too.
I think many night elves totally sleep on archers but when you see 6+ dryads, which isn't uncommon, they would be far better served with some archers mixed in and dryads mainly for slow and abolish. Dryads are safer and easier to use though.
>it's better to leave the archers at home anyway if you go that route.
Yeah they are bad at attacking a base directly. They are mostly a supporting unit and they really do need bears or huntresses to hide behind.

>>2413879
Yeah when you put it like this you make me feel like a dummy
The issue for me currently is that I'm not really good at implementing any sort of deviation from the standard nelf flow chart. I've gotten good at the 8:30 bear timing and am decent at spending my resources but other than making more dryads than bears vs rifle casters I'm still shit at adapting. I suppose it's not hard queuing up a couple of extra archers, but like you say, they need different upgrades and I'm now playing elf specifically because there's not a lot of deviation.
Thematically I prefer humans but it's a huge headache for me learning the timings of 3 different builds, not to mention fast expo shenanigans, worker count etc. I also feel greatly handicapped knowing that I could be power building or militia creeping but I don't because I'm second guessing the resource management.

>>2415070
Games are much easier on paper than actually playing them. Discussing theory is valuable because it's much easier to notice what you are missing when you aren't juggling units, defending against harrassment, macroing, and trying to creep.
>I've gotten good at the 8:30 bear timing and am decent at spending my resources but other than making more dryads than bears vs rifle casters I'm still shit at adapting.
It's somewhat ironic you mention this because archers are far better against rifle caster than dryads are. Sure, they have spell immunity but they are also taking 1.5x damage from rifles, have less range whereas archers have more, and do less dps. You, of course, still want some dryads for abolish and slow but normal armor is ideal here.
Also, consider long rifles for human: they always take it if they are making riflemen because it just makes riflemen much safer and easier to use. Archer range is exactly the same.
You always have an ancient of war so you might as well just use it. Overmaking archers leaves you very vulnerable to normal damage but they are so cheap and at only 2 pop it isn't a big deal if they die.
>playing elf specifically because there's not a lot of deviation
I do think nelf is easier than human. Nelf also has easy scouting with wisps.
While you do have a consistent core, all nelf units have a place, even huntress and mountain giants. Druids of the talon do fantastic dps for their cost, being beaten only possibly by walkers, ontop of faerie fire. If you are facing a lot of heavy armor, investing into them to replace some archers will make a difference.
Over relying on dryads is a huge mistake I see so many night elves do. Their armor type and dps is just bad even if their utility makes them feel great to use and spell immunity gives you a sense of security.

>>2415142
I've just had a match where I was bent over the table by mass wyverns. I was thinking only about your posts when my dryads were obviously dispatched and when it dawned on me that it's too late for archers after my 3rd lost fight I finally conceded. Motherfucker was nuking my naga in 3 sec too. Would you build a second AOW in that scenario? Usually I try and cancel the bestiary but his BM was giving me a hard time already so I never got the chance.
Anyway some good advice there, thanks a lot. What's the point of nelf though if I can't shut off my brain and hit my bear timings, might as well learn how to play the game at this point, shit

>>2415287
Yeah archers would be much better into wyverns.
>Would you build a second AOW in that scenario?
If he is committing heavily to wyverns then it's a good answer. You still need some bears and dryads to prevent raiders and kodos but archers are your best counter for wyverns.
Once you see the second beastiary, I think you can safely commit more to aow than aol since
>kodos eat bears
>dryads are poor massed
>archers beat wyverns and bats
Wind isn't necessary unless he goes taurens.
I often see blind 2x lore and I don't think it's good - it's a huge signal and bears and dryads are very easy to counter.
If he transitions to raiders it's not a big deal since you will still have bears and dh. While they are vulnerable to ensnare,
archers have long range and take reduced siege damage.
If you see a lot of grunts make ancient of wind but grunts aren't good enough anyway.
>his BM was giving me a hard time
Blademaster is always annoying. He is relatively fragile but difficult to finish off. I'm not experienced enough to say what the best answer is. Maybe invul potion and possibly staff of sanctuary but dh obviously has priority for items. Naga dying isn't the worst thing - at low level she is cheaper than a bear and if he consistently beelines for her you can use that as bait.
>might as well learn how to play the game
One of the things about rts is no matter how good you get there is always more room to climb. Even nelf takes some brainpower eventually, unless you play warden.

>>2415344
Thanks. I do need to watch more replays but when you watch pros it might as well be a different game. Watching some of the coaching sessions for Grub's tournament it was night and day, listening to why you're doing certain things and what you're hoping to accomplish with those, as opposed to just seeing things happen. I also suffer from trying too hard to play correctly, and as such for instance I sometimes won't immolate harass an orc goldmine with a shittily built burrow because I don't much care for wins as opposed to improving.
Can I take advantage and ask some questions for HU? I stopped playing it when I lost 3 in a row vs a turtling worm undead before it's been explicitly made clear to me that you're not supposed to walk into their base. I tried 2x workshop outside their main trying to clear buildings with mortars, gyros which failed and dragonhawk which failed.
>when do you get gyros as opposed to hawks
>when do you get rifles as opposed to either
>when do you fast expo
>when do you expo after clearing an easy green camp
>when do you t2 if you do expo
>when do you t3 on a quick expo if at all
>what timings to have in mind
I heard deathnote say you always go siege vs warden. Certainly that can't ALWAYS be the case.

>>2415365
I'll try to answer but you should try to understand concepts rather than memorize the rock paper scissors.
>turtling worm undead
Dragonhawks' ability is a direct counter to wyrms - a 3 food unit disables a 7 food unit. If you know he is wyrms then hawks + rifles is ideal. You can mix in gryphons to deal with ghouls and aboms too. You must cast shackle, however.
Against turtles always expo and posture around his base taking his creep camps. Turtles are bitchmade and will surrender everything. Remember you can take green camps at home with just militia if you float lumber.
Don't feed his heroes free xp you really want to contain him more than you want to trade because he needs hero levels more than you do. Just bide your time and try end faster with mortars when you think you're better.
>gyros
Are the only heavy flying unit making them excellent against piercing and more tanky than they seem.
Most flying units are light and some are unarmored which are both weak to piercing. They are weak to magic but gyros will beat almost any other unit when massed. They do fantastic dps for their cost and food. They also do aoe.
Gyros are an air dominance unit which are easy to use and can work against wyrms too.
Coming from the workshop is a weakness. Hawks provide shackle and gryphons are more immediately and generally impactful.
Tanks aren't usually worth it and while mortars are probably the best artillery unit they aren't something you can mass.
>rifles
Come from the barracks making them easy to add. Because of armor types, they will trade well into wyverns, wyrms, gryphons, etc and their range and animation makes them easy to use. They are also quite tanky.
If you are making hawks, you will likely use rifles to kill the shackled units.
They are your main source of piercing and ranged damage so you always make them.

>>2415365
>fast expo
When you can. When you aren't fast teching for some reason. When you aren't rushing. If your opponent is and you aren't confident you can stop them.
As human it is very easy to do and immediately puts pressure on your enemy to gain an advantage. It delays your tech a lot but the main risk is against aggro orc.
>easy green camp
If you need to wait for more resources or more units to be able to take the expo. Taking a green camp gives you time for another footman and water elemental as well as militia.
>when do you t2
I would always T2 after making enough peasants. Access to arcane sanctum, workshop, and aviary is too important to delay. If you find yourself T1 against T3 you will be devoid of tools to answer the enemy. T2 gives you enough that you can survive against T3.
>t3
If you need gryphons or knights. If you aren't confident you can win a direct assault but are very ahead. If you are floating resources. Inner fire.
>timings
MK 3 is your biggest power spike. Thunder clap is very powerful and decimates ghouls. MK3 + invul + heal scroll (+ potion) provides a lot. Ideally, take their items and deny them the shop. You should be able to take map dominance with this and militia. Storm bolt means they cannot allow their hero to get too low and there is always the potential for a surround with it. It's worth saving the mana for this option, even if thunder clap is usually better.
A lot depends on what your opponent is doing. Your timings are relative to theirs - if they are delaying their tech then attacking just as they tech and before they can utilize it means you benefit from tech while they don't. This vulnerability can obviously apply to you too.
>deathnote
I still haven't seen his coaching. It sounds funny so I should watch some of it.
>siege vs warden
As in tanks? Night elf lacks siege and even normal damage. Still, tanks are easy to scout, particularly for warden, and take a long time to happen. I consider them cheesy honestly.

>>2409270
they were just doing their job
I don't think they tortured him for fun or something

>>2372733
So Arthas cucked that elf nigga. No wonder he's so edgy and beserk.

>>2415470
>I'll try to answer but you should try to understand concepts rather than memorize the rock paper scissors
Thank you. And yes, it's concepts that I'm looking to understand, and many are not as intuitive as I'd like. Spamming footies, for example, is something I've seen people do after finishing the expo, which I'd have thought is a poor use of supply and gold, much of it as you have while you stabilize your lumber income. But, I've seen pros float 1k gold for a few good minutes after finishing expo as well. I understand that it relates to how aggressive your opponent is, but I always prefer a well thought out game plan to reacting willy nilly to your opponent's whims.
Eh maybe that comes with time and practice

>>2416015
That's exactly why you spam footmen, yes.
>have surplus gold income for a few minutes
>are behind in tech and units
>need to train peasants
>can just spam footmen to try and hold on until your economy starts rolling
You aren't expecting miracles from them but if you make nothing you risk being overwhelmed or at least giving up the entire map. Footmen allow you to maintain a presence and at least try to creep. A passive opponent doesn't necessitate this.
>float 1k gold
Floating gold is less bad in wc3 than most other rts. Shops give you options to instantly spend a lot of gold and upkeep creates another incentive to bank. Because of upkeep, making too much of the wrong unit can be seriously detrimental since it becomes even more expensive to transition away or you have to lose units.
>I always prefer a well thought out game plan to reacting willy nilly to your opponent's whims.
It's not a dichotomy and it depends on the matchup. he higher you climb the more necessity there is to react to your opponent but at lower levels simply executing your build well as if it were singleplayer is often enough.
If you plan to spam bears, gryphons, wyrms, knights, etc you can often win simply because your opponent doesn't know how to counter it. However, if they do and they identify what you are doing then you're cooked.
Your game plan should really be based on your hero, creeping patterns, and timings. Which units you make necessarily has to be flexible because of the rock paper scissors mature of armor and damage types - you cannot spam bears if he is spamming walkers and you cannot spam dryads if he is spamming rifles.
Your hero, however, is chosen in the first minute and that decides a lot: whether you can fast expand, whether you can effectively kill workers, whether you can steal creeps, and more.
This is really the dimension of wc3 which makes it unique and the hardest part to learn imo. Wc3 is a game predominantly about micro and knowledge.

Is there anywhere I can find build orders, and general strategies for/against each race? I haven't decided which one to play and I'd like to get into laddering.