>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this on /vg/
Discussing what? Warcraft 3 in general?

>>2354246
OK zoomtard
>>2332732
>>2352043

what do you think i have to say about wc3 that i haven't said the last twenty-four years?

>it gets boring doing the same thing every time
hmm. HMMMMMMMM

>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this on /vg/ other than to talk shit about orcs and how they're a bunch of savage barefoot pieces of shit who genocide every people they come across and drink demon cum when they fail
That's based though. It's only cringe, when the Orcs try to deny this and pretend they are better than the Vanguard of the Burning Legion.

>Favorite faction? Builds? I enjoy my night elf bears but it gets boring doing the same thing every time
I like going Illidari and start off with a Demon Hunter Hero and Naga as my race, before unlocking Chaos Orcs and when I have enough gold, I also unlock Blood Elves.

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World pvp while leveling is the vanilla endgame.

Whoops, wrong thread. btw Stratholme was mass unlawful killing.

TREMBLE MORTALS AND DESPAIR. DOOM HAS COME TO THIS WORLD.

>>2354246
>/vg/
wrong board
>How come no one is ever discussing this
there are 2 active warcraft3 threads right now
>Favorite faction? Builds?
undead, wagon/necromancer skelly spam, very fun but usually opponent won't allow it to happen in PvP, very fun in compstomp

>>2354319
>>2354368
>what do you think i have to say about wc3 that i haven't said the last twenty-four years?
doesn't stop you from having 4 simultaneous AOE threads at any given time. Like there's so much discussion to be had about the newest Mesoamerican civ but this time without jaguars
>>2354312
>>2354452
/vst/ i meant. yea most comps aren't viable in pvp unfortunately, which is why I came here to discuss. I'm experimenting with humans but there's just so many units to pick from I have no idea what and when to use. When to go Gyro over Dragonhawks, Tanks over Mortars, stuff like that
>>2354425
>That's based though
Fighting peaceful elves and getting your shit pushed in by a bunch of women to go cry to your demon daddy is anything but based

>>2354510
>When to go Gyro over Dragonhawks
when you need heavy anti air but riflemen solve both air and ground problems
>Tanks over Mortars
late game vs early game, tanks can only excel when supported with an army, mortars can delete towers from safe distance

>>2354510
>gyro
spammable, splash dmg, non-organic
>hawks
low dmg, good util abilities
>mortars
long ranged siege, living unit, shrapnel upgrade so good against caster backline too
>tanks
mobile forts that can only attack buildings, and air with upgrades

It's not rocket surgery, anon. Go copters when enemy is massing air, go hawks when enemy has a few bigger air units or has spammed towers. Go mortars whenevever you need siege or the enemy has mass light/unarmored units. Tanks are for cheeses where you build like 5 in secret and destroy their main while fighting his army on the map.

If you are a beginner you should start with one of those starter guides so that you get a handle on the basics. You need a foundation to start experimenting from.

>>2354553
>>2354557
Well I know what each does, thanks. It's just that humans seem to have overly specialized units and the decision making process it's harder than it needs to be, at least for me, at this point. And now we add rifles into the mix?
Last game I was shitting on an undead, made sure to scout to not get surprised Wyrm'd again, only saw slaughters and some aboms so I started preparing my gryphons, then he hits me with mass obsidians, so I quickly built 2 workshops and started working on gyros, but they would explode in seconds. I suppose riflemen was the play here.
But if that's the case I guess I need to stop going 2 sanctum every match and just play reactively as hu?
>hawks when you need heavy anti air
I thought they'd be great vs wyrms, but it turns out wyrm comps also have fiends which render your hawks useless. so I guess you go gyros vs them, but, again, they pop in a few seconds
>tanks late game
Usually when I see a fucker turtling I build a couple of workshop right outside his base anyways, but I always go mortar. Makes sense though, thanks
>If you are a beginner you should start with one of those starter guides so that you get a handle on the basics.
I maybe have 3-400 matches spread over 3 years. I watch Grubby but there's only so much you can learn from watching pros when, like you say, the foundation isn't fully there. I've got build orders down but I've never really learned how to properly adapt to an army comp that shits on me.
There aren't really other active sites to discuss so sorry if I don't discuss warcraft 3 in the "what's your favorite naruto TD custom map" thread and make one of my own.

>>2354593
watch grubby if you want competitive takes
paladin rifle was the prime meme build at least up until recently
hawks, gyros and tanks barely ever get made in competitive 1v1
>I watch Grubby but there's only so much you can learn from watching pros when, like you say, the foundation isn't fully there
not sure what you mean by foundation. Foundation is creeping whenever you can and not going back to base without a good reason. Making gyros and dismissing rifles seems like a knowledge gap issue

>>2354601
I know about pala rifle, I was playing it last year, but again, you can only do that so many times before it gets tedious
>Foundation is creeping whenever you can and not going back to base without a good reason. Making gyros and dismissing rifles seems like a knowledge gap issue
Fundamental knowledge, if you prefer. My choices of army comp, the opponent's all possible army comps, how to counter them etc.
>hawks, gyros and tanks barely ever get made in competitive 1v1
true, but then again, I'm not sure if they mass taurens in "real" competitive 1v1 either. Possibly I've given a bad example,but either way I definitely have encounter some wacky comps that a basic rifle+casters couldn't deal with in the blizzard 3500s

Why does wc3 have so few builds compared to broodwar?
https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Common_build_orders
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Category:Terran_Build_Orders

>>2354853
Because wc3 is focused more about creeping with heroes and map control in the early game so build orders need to be more in line for this progression and take less player attention.

>>2354632
Looking at the stats then it does feel like spiders+wyrms are countered by breakers+rifles in theory, but it practice it feels like it's down to scouting it with enough time to react or not. Probably something that Grubby would tell you to stop before the wincon ever materializes.

>>2354923
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF1vS4rRey0

>>2354923
>something happens
yeah, something happens: the game is over by that point because your army/main got deleted before you had a chance to react

>>2354924
do you focus fire wyrms or let damage spread with attack move? When you're facing 3+ wyrms you're just really bad, it takes forever to get to that point for UD. Similar situation is 12 battlecruisers in starcraft. You literally need to leave the enemy alone for 20+ minutes to get to that point

>>2354923
>>it just felt very video gamey
The video game feels very video gamey. NO WAY!

>>2354945
Ideally breakers whould be targeting spiders and keeping them from attacking rifles while rifles attack wyrms, but fights are hardly ideal circumstances. If you can disable the DK, you can get away with focusing a single wyrm, otherwise you need to threaten two targets.

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>>2354926
>>2354942
>>2354949
so much seethe
who knew painting brood war pvp in favorable light compared to w3 would trigger some anons this much

>>2354246
unironically the best rts ever made

>>2354923
>Turtling wasn't viable back when towers were op
>Rushing doesn't work in Warcraft
Thanks for the input, reddit.

>>2354924
>enough time to react or not. Probably something that Grubby would tell you to stop before the wincon ever materializes.
Definitely, and I do have 2 or 3 games in the previous week alone where the undead was turtling, my heroes were 2 levels above his, I'd even scouted his sacrificial pit which I didn't think you needed anymore, yet I fought him in his base and got my shit pushed in.
Maybe I shouldn't have fought him in his base (though how else are you going to stop wyrms before they happen) maybe I should have had more priests or more mortars, maybe I should have expanded earlier, I don't know, but I definitely felt robbed, especially the 2nd time when I was preparing exactly for that

>>2354992
>I prefer game X over Y because of Z reason
>so much seethe
you don't know what seething is. Visit the homm3 thread and ctrl+f forge to see actual seethe

>>2355067
He's likely just a PVE faggot who can't micro trying to stir shit up

>>2355005
>I should have expanded earlier,
this
>I'd even scouted his sacrificial pit which I didn't think you needed anymore,
you don't
maybe he was scouting for your expansion with shades or where you were creeping

if your opponent is turtling then you
>creep their camps
>attack their base if they try to move across map
>take an expansion
his investment into towers etc means you should have a stronger army
if you deny undead hero levels then it seriously hurts them and with your expansion you should be able to effortlessly outpace their eco
even if they somehow start getting frost wryms before you're sieging them with 80 pop you should simply overwhelm them and with your own air too
wc3 has relatively easy macro so there is no reason to be floating gold when you don't want to be

>>2355188
Thanks. I'm not a complete beginner but there's tricky stuff I need to get in my system. Stuff like not panicking and attacking an expansion, but instead making one of my own, base trading, timings in general, routs etc. Bnet is a mess so it's not like you can learn by consistently playing against players of similar skill. I'll get around to playing on w3champs one of these days

>>2355267
theory is a lot easier than practice and it's very easy to armchair game
this goes for yourself too though: watch your own replays and analyse your own game
it's much easier to do when you aren't in the moment having to execute stuff
stuff like micro just comes with time it's more the strategic decisions you need to inspect

>>2354992
He's not talking about brood war. He mentions Banelings which are a SC2 unit.

it doesn't seem like anything has meaningfully replaced the WC3 custom scene sadly
you could get a million games for the price of one
why has this been so hard for developers to replicate? they saw the massive success WC3 had due to its custom scene, spawning several billion dollar games and genres, yet no one can replicate it?
why have we gone backwards as a society?

>>2355286
Things like that still exist in minecraft and roblox and I assume fortnite. I'm sure I've seem some wonky things there, and that's not to mention the near infinite amount of party games you might find on steam.
The migration to first person from isometric definitely has to do with some decrease in whatever you call the trait associated with patience and imagination, I don't want to say IQ though it may as well be that. I thought people don't like to click their mouse anymore, then I remembered BG3, but then I remembered that half of that game is cutscenes anyway.

Those guys over at the AOM thread are having too much fun, design a new hero for each faction

>Brood war babbies refuse to play on desert OR snow tileset because it hurts their eyes after playing for 80 hours a week

kek, I couldn't imagine only using forest/space maps forever.

Recently started WC3.
Arrived at the mission where you have to kill that city of zombies.
I don't really like the hero system, but upkeep is something more rts should have (had).
Not sure how I feel about the campaign, I hate timed missions of any kind and the last one already had me hold out for half an hour.
Will it get better or will I get more of this?

>>2355439
The campaign is definitely worth it, at least the RoC one. In the expansion it's mostly hero-centered which I definitely didn't like, it played like a much worse Diablo. However, if you don't care about Arthas or the story in general, I guess you can let it go, as far as I'm concerned it only gets better culminating with the last chapter. There's not a whole lot of timed missions, I think maybe 2 or 3

>>2355321
>Human
Si:7 Operative - Agi
1. Backstab (passive): Hitting units from behind deals extra damage
2. Spell Shield: Blocks the next targeted spell
3. Sprint: Increase movement speed
4: Smoke Bomb: Enemies are slowed silenced and have an increased miss chance

I'm also thinking about a hero who's ult is like metamorphosis but makes him flying. Either an Orc dragon tamer or a Nelf Druid

>>2355444
>who's ult is like metamorphosis but makes him flying.
Wildhammer dwarf, ranged hero(throws hammers), ultimate is to call a gryphon

>>2354246
>How come no one is ever discussing this
I stopped giving a shit about Blizzard games after Diablo 3 sucked

>>2355486
They haven't yed had the chance to ruin W3
>>2355484
It's too much like the Rider

>>2355439
there's one more undead mission where you have to defend for 30 minutes, then the last mission in the roc campaign is also a defend for X time mission. They're great.

>>2355444
SI7 is Stormwind, the humans in WC3 are mostly from Lordaeron. Otherwise a rogueish outlaw character would fit with TFT Lordaeron themes.

>>2355906
I was thinking they'd send an operative to keep tabs on the whole undead situation

why didn't arthas just have sex with jaina

>>2354853
As someone who loves WC3, Heroes are just too good. Heroes are faster than other units, Town Portal is a get out of jail free card, and unlike starcraft, losing a unit is extra painful because that's EXP for the enemy hero. So a lot of skirmishes and strategy early/mid wc3 are getting to units which either force the opponent into a fight (hunter nets, sorc slow) or have insane value (pillage grunts/hunts)

>>2355442
>The campaign is definitely worth it, at least the RoC one.
I am playing it right now after 20 years. It might have been a mistake to do it on normal but this shit isn't challenging or anything at all.
Most missions let me just sit on my ass and build up to a steamroll.
The only difficulty I faced were defense missions because I got so bored before the end where the harder waves would pop that I started fucking around a lose units I normally wouldn't.
Also the story and writing... they aren't that great as I remembered. I played Kohan 2 not long before and I was thinking man it feels like a worse War3 in terms of story and stuff. Well, no, it wasn't worse it was the same, just nostalgia made War3 seem better.

I liked RTS campaigns as a kid, but can't find any of them as good anymore. Maybe I'll try AoM later but I don't have much hope about it.

>>2355659
>They haven't yed had the chance to ruin W3
Reforged

>>2356465
that's wow nuLore
there's no mention of new stormwind in wc3

>>2356663
Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns. Normal is easy and easy is the jouro braindead difficulty. If you have someone to play with, I recommend looking at the 2man campaign maps which usually have their difficulty dialled up besides accounting for two players. Very fun with a friend.

There's definetely some nostalgia involved, but you shouldn't go into wc3 expecting a great narrative or story. There's not a lot of canvas anyway for the writers to work with since every map has only an handful of lines of dialog. It's like expecting a great literary work from twitterposts. That's just not going to happen due to the technical limitations. The strengths of wc3 are the presentation and the style. And the dialog, even tho it's short, is to the point and punchy. That means there are a lot of memorable lines.

From a gameplay sense the roc campaign is a letdown. It functions like an extended tutorial for each of the races, but the maps are dull and they don't really teach anything relevant. Nothing that can be transferred to the realgame on the ladder. Tft has much better maps overall with greater challenge and a greater mix of interesting maps. In tft human campaign you can play regular humans, gimped humans and then beefed monsterhumans. And not in a tutorial-ish way, but in a challengemode-ish way.

The only problem is that it's short.

>>2356685
the campaign is an extended tutorial, as most campaigns are, but i completely disagree that there isn't a strong story
the wc3 story is one of the best, possibly the best, in any rts ever and, unlike most games, the events in the story are reflected in the gameplay
you remember all the key characters and you understand their motives and actions im fact they are so iconic that even people who never played may know about them
tft plays a lot better and is also written very strongly
no campaign in any game gives you ladder skills beyond teaching you the unit rooster and wc3 does that fine

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>>2356663
>Most missions let me just sit on my ass and build up to a steamroll.
>I liked RTS campaigns as a kid, but can't find any of them as good anymore
Most campaigns weren't really designed for competitive players 20 years ago, even those of the early 2000s, let alone the metafagging player of today. Compare even old AOEII campaigns to what they release today and the difference in difficulty is night and day. Though, from what I hear, Reforged has come up with some new levels, fuck if I'll even go check them out though.
Still, I will say that there's a handful of levels where you can't really just sit on your ass, even on normal. I'm not saying it takes effort, but it's not always easy peasy
>>2356792
>tft plays a lot better and is also written very strongly
I really, really disagree. You can tell they were trying out things for WOW and were losing interest in the RTS aspects of Warcraft. I definitely remember that even as a kid, Rexxar's campaign struck me as odd, what with the quest marks and more-or-less solo Hero adventure. What I forgot was that all of TFT's campaigns were like that, there were maybe 2 or 3 base building missions. The last mission of Rexxar and that troll clearing an entire city of skilled mages was fucking bullshit, both in terms of gameplay and story. As far as I'm concerned, nothing compares in quality to the last ROC mission. I wish I had my screenshots of KOTG+POTM ults spamming ults making use of terrain

>>2356792
>the campaign is an extended tutorial, as most campaigns are
yep I vividly remember how i defeated grubby on ladder by defending my base for 30 minutes and destroying the gate to quel thalas

>>2356792
It's good in the sense that it succeeds in what it needs to and sets out to do. But it's like a thin movie plot where you aren't supposed to think about things since then everything would unravel. RTS cut-scenes aren't just the medium for delivering a good story, but that's ok since all it really has to do is tie one mission to the next. Herr wc3 succeeds stylishly.
>>2356906
The last map of tft is much closer to playing a competetive map than the last map of roc. Roc is just passive and railroaded on a timer, tft is active and dynamic with options and decisions and possibilities.

Tft orc campaign feels like a donut oc steel fanfiction. I don't even want to think about it.

>>2356978
>The last map of tft is much closer to playing a competetive map than the last map of roc. Roc is just passive and railroaded on a timer, tft is active and dynamic with options and decisions and possibilities.
Yeah I definitely agree. I personally didn't like the final TFT map specifically because it felt like it wanted me to abuse some systems and play in a way where I felt like I had to cheese the AI, though I guess now that this is just how you play RTS vs computer and I had a different perspective back then. Still, I can concede it's a good mission among bullshit and trite solo hero adventure maps.
With the RoC one, the scale was so great and you had to be on the lookout for so many things that it definitely felt that you were defending against a huge demon invasion. Now that I know about control groups, it'd probably be a different story.
We can shake hands on the orc campaign though. Fuck whoever thought that a half orc should be able to single-handedly massacre an entire population of wizards. Likely Metzen- how sad that he's a beacon of qualitative writing in Blizzard now

>>2356954
>implying any tutorial in any game ever made or even in theory could give you these kind of skills
do you even know what a tutorial is?

>>2356685
>Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns.
Okay I switched to that and man it's just... not fun?
>having to dance back and forth with my squishy units because AI focuses casters and weaker ranged
>except maps are very often narrow corridors in which I can barely traverse let alone fight and position without pathfinding making my units getting stuck on themselves
>missions are insanely tedious sometimes
>do x while you defend your base
I don't know if it's the difficulty, because I already had these problems playing on normal, I think it just amplifies them.
Also I am getting disoriented so badly with things like Priests having light armor and my Raiders not doing extra dmg to them... Or not having my own shop to salve/heal scroll damaged units.
I like some ideas, like the wyvern mission, having to ferry units with zeppelins... But using zeppelins is fucking ass!

>>2354246
I replayed this game so many times over the years I can no longer replay it and enjoy it. Tried the custom campaigns people made and honestly they all suck ass. They all try to do too much or too little

>>2356573
He left her for thrall, he knew his penis wasn't big enough to handle jaina

>>2358124
>movement
WC3 units almost never get stuck on eachother. Unit pathing and collision is one of the things wc3 engine does very well. In SC1 you'd literally have units get stuck in traffic jams from a simple move order. In wc3 you'll always have units sort themselves out relativelt quickly.
>overwhelmed
Multitasking and being able to effectively direct the flow of combat is the fun part in RTS. Dealing with the preassure and the stress and the challenge is fun.
>AC
You are overthinking it. Armorclass isn't something you have to worry about in the campaign. Having your unit do 15 damage instead of 18 to a 250hp support isn't the main consideration. Think of it as doing 15 dmg instead of no damage and the tradeoff for util that raiders bring seems far better. Or consider the following: hdroes have the best armorclass in the game reducing nearly every source of damage, yet they are still often the most valuable targets to attack on the field.

>>2358143
thrall is gay anon

>>2358188
>WC3 units almost never get stuck on eachother.
They do in narrow corridors and there is this weird formation shit that I didn't bother to observe properly but I noticed whole groups waiting for some specific units to walk to the front of the group before they all do the movement command I gave. Honestly I can't be arsed to fiddle around ~18 units or even just 12 in corridors that fit 5 or 6 at most.
Also I had a moment in TFT MP some time ago when my whole group of 4 footies got bunched up and stopped for a second because the first one hit a wandering critter in it's path.
>Multitasking and being able to effectively direct the flow of combat is the fun part in RTS. Dealing with the preassure and the stress and the challenge is fun.
I'm fine in multiplayer and in other games. Somehow this gets on my nerves really bad. Especially with the above mentioned.
>You are overthinking it.
I'm just really thrown off by things not working the way I am used to them working. What is the point of raiders even like this.
>cata better siege
>grunt better front
>headhunter better caster kill
ensnare? almost worthless in SP, extra clicking when pathfinding already is a fuck, better to just build trolls to kill air and the enemies never retreat so I could use it to secure kills

>>2358413
you just a move in the campaign and micro back dying guys it's really easy

>>2358371
He has a wife

>>2358413
Keep the formation toggle off, always, as it forces everyone to move at the speed of the slowest units under move commands.
>group of 4 footies got bunched up and stopped for a second because the first one hit a wandering critter in it's path
This isn't getting stuck. This is just the game engine having consistent collision detection and pathing. It wasn't uncommon for RTS from the 90s to have units literally get stuck on each other forever from a single move command. Units in wc3 are very good at finding new pathways when they get stuck and even a cluster of units will untangle itself relatively smoothly. Units in Wc3 don't behave like a hivemind in the sense that they don't communicate with each other and figure out the most efficient pathways for every unit accounting for the paths of every other unit in the group. In this sense they behave liek individual units and they will have inefficiencies and conflicting paths. This creates avenues of skill expressing through managing units and blocking enemies.
>What is the point of raiders even like this
Mobility, cc, siege. In that order. Fast units can retreat before dying and chase low units trying to retreat, as well as move across the map faster. Ensnare is super powerful and useful in every imaginable situation where units are present. It grounds flying units, immobilizes ground units, interrupts casts. You can use it to isolate a unit, to stop one from chasing, stop a worker from repairing. It's got loads of synergies (ensnare bears, walk up with kodos for free lunches). Siege damage type is literally a tetriary bonus which is meant to threaten raiders to do hit and run attacks on buildings. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be attacking units in a battle. Where knights are frontline cavalry, raiders are hit-and-run/enabling cavalry.

I'll be honest, everything you are saying sounds like a massive entitlement and skill issue. It's not the game, it's you. Relinquish your ego and play the game.

>>2358456
raiders are kinda bad in the campaign because the ai never runs away even though they are s tier in mp

>>2356685
>Hard is the intended difficulty in the campaigns.
[citation needed]

>>2358539
Don't worry so much about difficulty. Worry about if people start deciding to kill faggots. That's a quote

>>2358456
>Keep the formation toggle off
I didn't know this is even a thing. Was this introduced at some point? I don't remember this behavior being in the game at all actually but that could be just a memory thing.
>This isn't getting stuck.
Ok, then it's not called stuck, idc, you got the point, I hope.
>radiers part of your post
Have you... even read what I wrote? We are talking about RoC campaign. I know how to use raiders in MP, I know what they are good for there. Their role is fucked in campaign because how differently things are set up and behave there.

I don't know why are you trying to explain things to me as if I wasn't playing RTS games and WC3 in the past 20 years and this was my first one.

>>2358428
That's mostly what I've been doing but halfway through the orc campaign I am having enough
>Honestly I can't be arsed to fiddle around ~18 units or even just 12 in corridors that fit 5 or 6 at most.

>>2358555
After re-reading your posts I can see what you were saying instead of what I remember you saying. The only explanation I've got is that I must have been only semi-focused while reading it on my phone, taken the wrong meaning and then replied with that in mind like an hour later when I was less busy. Genuinely didn't notice it until now.

>>2358561
No problem, anon, it happens.

>>2358551
If "Hard" was the intended difficulty it would be called "Normal".
Because "Normal" as the word itself indicates is the baseline and norm for difficulty. "Normal" is and always was the intended difficulty.

>>2354246

What was Illidan's punishment again, after failing again to kill the Lich King, when Arthas beat his ass? I think there never was any consequences.

>>2358772
There was never any because he conquered Outland and ran back there to hide behind his armies.

>>2354246
>Favourite factions: UD > NE > HU > ORC
>Favourite build: CL + Ghoul + beetle giga rush.
>Bring Rod of Necro and skull of damned and 1 acolyte.
>Overwhelm them with zounds of units and towers erecting at the same time. >Because warcraft is so slow this can be a 10 minute slog where they are just trying to stop the fire.
>Start teching up the second you leave your base.
>By the time they have held, if they held, you have aboms with disease cloud around corner
>9/10 who make it this far just rage quit

I've actually seen some people do this now because CL got mega buffed. But I've been doing this since the start of TfT. Best win I ever had was an Orc ranked 3 on the ladder. He seethed so hard losing to a casual. Thats what you get when you tech to t2 with zero units.

>>2358866
Yea I don't give a shit, undead is a huge problem. They have the capacity to fast expo AND interrupt yours within before you even get to wise up, and it's all done with free summoned units that give shit xp. And free regen at home, and infinite corpses.
Happy has been #1 since forever and undead get nothing but buffs, but a fucking league streamer complains about rifle-pala and BM gets gutted

>>2358934
I don't think pointing to the #1 pro is really a good way to look for balance. WC3 is a relatively small scene too. That said, I do think undead is strong and orc is weak but mostly because orc lategame sucks meaning they have to win or basically win before things even get there.

Orc also has expensive, albeit good, units topped off with expensive, if also good, healing which is partly their strength but also means they are typically poor unless they expo. Lightning orb annoys me the most because it's so expensive but it isn't even a particularly good orb.
It almost feels like orc gets their mid game very early but is also stuck in their mid game forever. Which is just kind of the race's personality but it says a lot that without raiders they would be unplayable.

Undead, on the other hand, is almost impossible to attack and is very happy to let the game run on. Their healing is virtually free and they can spam cheap or even free summons for scouting, creeping, and harass. It feels like all the pressure is to try and cripple them early but they are just so hard to attack. They lack early dispel, needing mercs to get it, but destroyers are one of the strongest units once they get them.
I don't really know what to even do besides try to deny their creeping and expo. I've lost games where I thought I did that but underestimated them, attacked too early, and then died, quickly or slowly. Maybe I should try to snipe acolytes more but it just feels like feeding xp.

>>2354510
>doesn't stop you from having 4 simultaneous AOE threads at any given time. Like there's so much discussion to be had about the newest
AoE gets dlc's

>>2359007
Funny, I'd have said that orc orb is stronger than most, then again I only ever play AGAINST orc. I wouldn't consider orc weak simply because of their relatively lackluster late game, they have a disproportionately strong early and middle and that is their win condition. That is perfectly fine and should be the case with any faction, only there is not one aspect of the Undead that make them weak. You cannot overpower constantly cycling ghouls and free skellies and roaches, cannot interrupt their expo and you'll have a hard time defending your own when they attack after having started theirs.
All you can hope for is for their heroes to stay at home in a tiny window in the mid game and hopefully get a chance to make use of the one level advantage you have, but good luck even destroying a shop or ziggurat

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>>2359062
And still all you manage to say is "buff cannoneer"
Maybe if I start ritualposting about riflemen you'll give w3 threads another chance

Anyone else been playing DOTA???

what's up with jaina showing up for 2 missions and then never being useable by us again

>>2360030
mage hero would trivialize the rest of the campaign, they're by far the best human option
also they needed her to fuck off somewhat early to kalimdor so arthas wouldn't kill her in dalaran

>>2360048
mage wouldn't be that great. He is strong in 1v1, he is not necessarily the "best hero" when it comes to campaign. Invul on arthas lets you cheese like every mission

>>2360048
for like the first three maps. no one would make an AM if heroes started at level 5

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>becomes an errand bitch boy for the overseer of the demons' undead orc puppet, who said that murdering your father and giving up your kingdom was a """test"""
Lmao. How exactly do you even cope in this situation?

>>2360585
he's seething extremely hard at the end of the campaign too, but kel'bro tells him to be patient, lich king foresaw the cuckening. Merely a temporary setback
>>2360152
>He is strong in 1v1, he is not necessarily the "best hero"
blizzard aoe slaps entire armies and water elemental(s) are insanely useful both for tanking and extra damage, the mana regen aura would synergize with arthas and he'd basically clear maps alone with neverending invincibility bubble
culling of stratholme? more like deleting of malganis

>>2360629
He already does that, you can just spawn camp melganis with arthas. You dont need an AM at all. There are so many mana items to pick up every mission the AM is redundant.

That said I sure do like jaina, too bad we never got the WC3+ like they promised.

the campaign should have let us buy a tavern hero for one mission a lot later on

>>2360885
Would have worked for the Arthas' merc mission up in Northrend.

>>2360955
the merc mission is just a tutorial on arthas skills and some items, a tavern hero wouldn't do anything in that mission. And taverns are a TFT invention

>>2361038
Wow

>>2360660
I wonder what crazy nonsense we could have got with a WC3 expansion pack made by not Blizzard. We could have had a Beyond the Dark Portal but they just refused cus they were making the MMO.

I think another expansion with some new units and heroes would be pretty cool

Heroes are extremely important in Warcraft 3. These are the playable heroes in the Reign of Chaos campaigns:
Human campaign:
Arthas
Jaina
Muradin
Undead campaign:
Arthas
Kelthuzad
Orc campaign:
Thrall
Grom
Cairn
Night Elf campaign:
Tyrande
Malfurion
Illidan

The Dreadlord is the only vanilla hero that is not playable in the Warcraft 3 campaign. All other archetypes are covered.

>>2361227
there are some fanmade ones but they're all shit

>>2361227
Diablo 2 is older than Warcraft 3 and that just received a new class and update.

>>2361312
Yeah but D2 resurrected sold millions and W3 fumbled hard because they left it all to chinks and malaysians instead of doing it in house from the beginning

>>2361320
afaik it was only malaysians and they did mostly just those ugly as fuck graphics and assets
it doesn't matter if they had made it in-house at blizz or not, the team working on the project wasn't getting funding and proper management, iirc there was less than five ppl left in it even before the game released

>>2361320
the same team did cnc and starcraft remastered, i think blizz just gave them retarded direction

>>2361499
>the same team did cnc and starcraft remastered
nope

Does anyone else think the nightelfs are really cute? I usually build an army of archers because the sound it makes when they die is so good

>>2361963
whatever you say Lacari

>>2361296
>We're finally getting naga as a playable faction
>It's reforged graphics exclusive

>>2361963
bara bears and talon twinks

>>2361296
I think fucking with MP balance any more would wreck the game. But having non-ladder non-competitive lobbies with High Elves/Blood Elves, Naga, and a Burning Legion faction? Holy sovl

>>2362222
I agree.

Still, I wonder if maybe getting like a factional merc camp building for each race might be interesting. Something like an embassy building with researchable choices which unlock certain trainable units for one specific choice. Like, say, an orc player choosing to build an embassy at t2 and getting access to the dark iron dwarves in some form of a unit after researching dark iron connections. And not being able to research the centaur nor goblin ones any more, for example. Might offer a way to plug a gap in your forces for a relatively high time and resource investment.

Dunno tho. The gameplay is probably too cobcise for this and the merc camps already fulfil this niche, however biasdly.

>>2362280
I'd like that but limited to respective factions, e.g. orcs can get demon orcs, UD can get skeleton archers, humans can get bandits, etc
>merc camps already fulfil this niche
yeah but only with gay units like ogres and lobsters

>>2362222
Holy soul what? There's plenty of custom maps full of horribly unbalanced factions that no one plays.
Reminds me of one dota custom map but with naruto characters where Itachi had a spell like much like Shadow Shaman's shackle, except it dealt 10x the damage and would persist until the opponent died
>>2362280
You'd be getting a whole new game entirely, and an element of complexity that, as much as AOE fags would try and deny, would just make the game too unbearable for most players. Warcraft III is unironically hard enough as it is (at a higher level).
At most we'll be getting a new hero (per faction but more likely Tavern) and MAYBE a new unit each within the next 10 years. 20 from now a new faction as well

>>2363212
>too much
I agree. Getting a new expansion's worth of units isn't going to happen. The gameplay is just too tight and not yet stale enough for a shake-up. Atm we are still at the
>what if we gave huntresses heavy armor?
>what if tanks could attack ground units?
stage of spicing. That's why I was aiming for a single unit, but a mechanic where you could choose that single unit for an up-front cost.

Even then doing something with merc camps might be better. Maybe having like access to rogue mercs of the factions on the map might be cool? Like a marketplace-ish merc barracks where units become available as the enemy goes up a tier? Like, playing against NE you get BE archer with stealth without marksman at T1, a corrupted dryad with immunity and poison, but no ablosh, and at T3 an exiled bear with no rejuv.

Eh, there'd be many ways of balancing it properly, but having interesting units become available at a marketplace-barracks as the players tech up might be a potential angle. Having access to a singular spellbreaker (or equivelant)with spellsteal might be neat as other races.

>>2363212
>Holy soul what?
Holy soul, that's it. Them adding these 3 factions in an official fashion would be soulful. It would reference the ingenuity of the original warcraft 3 the frozen throne, untainted by modern homosexuality and donutsteel OC trans dragon retardation. That would be soulful. There is nothing more to say.
>There's plenty of custom maps full of horribly unbalanced factions that no one plays.
and they can fuck off and so can you. OFFICIAL and done competently by people who get paid to do it so they care about the outcome? Holy sovl. You insufferable NIGGER.

>>2363283
>Them adding these 3 factions in an official fashion
>But without any balance in mind
My go-to insult is Indian but you're beyond that. To describe you, I'd go with stereotypical fat fuck American bootlicker of corporations, but I mean really fat, think that 500 pound life TV show, and really a slave to capitalism, one which might own a collection fashioned into an altar of sealed Funko Pop figurines without the intent to sell them.
You do understand that
1. No one currently working at Blizzard can or is even hired with the intent of them making "soulful" product
2. Custom maps I've mentioned all had hand-drawn and animated models of characters, all much more effortful than anything you'd find in Reforged
Rejecting content you mindlessly call "soulful" because it's not made by Corporation is the strangest thing I've never thought I'd read. Truly retarded behavior.

>>2363334
shut the fuck up you stupid shitskin nigger and fuck off back to r.eddit where you belong with your retarded takes.
They got original starcraft devs to work on the starcraft remaster and it turned out great, they outsourced w3 remaster to malaysia and got dogshit. You're making such retarded claims and comparisons I can smell the reek of ganges from your post

>>2363334
Perfect description of such posters

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Are there demons nearby?

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The most powerful playable heroes in Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos are Chaos Grom and Illidan.
Both forms of Arthas are also really damn good but Chaos Grom and Illidan are kind of Raid Boss tier.

>>2363743
Keep in mind that Paladin Arthas with Frostmourne has chaos damage and a very large amount of it. More than Grom and Illidan.
He's also invulnerable 75% of the time.
Grom would still kill him with micro though because of windwalk.

>>2363756
You're right. He was so powerful that he could solo both bases.

>>2363779
>gets one clicked with an item
oops!

I'm playing RoC and the story is so silly at times. These are in the mission where you free Illidan:
>These Barrow Deeps have remained untouched for nearly three thousand years. Still, there is no telling what creatures may have taken up residence after we sealed these tunnels shut.
>These explosive devices look to be of goblin design. The wily creatures must have hidden them here long ago. No matter, I'll make good use of them.
The latter is said by Tyrande INSIDE the prison section, behind 2 doors, one locked by magical mechanism and at least a dozen of elf guards.

>>2363856
tyrande's whole thing is talking with perfect confidence while being utterly wrong

>>2363861
There are other things, like Illidan calling Arthas human, as if he had ever seen one.

>>2363865
>>2363856
I definitely remember Thrall and Cairne (Bane?) walking through some caves saying "no one must have set foot here in thousands of years" when it was clearly not the case. Something like that.

>>2363916
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABtIfK1SwIU

>>2363856
>>2363865
Yeah there are a lot of cracks like that.
Metzen needed another guy who could correct him, like me, but I was only a child at the time and lived on the other side of the planet so I couldn't help him.

>>2363856
>>2363865
>>2363931
the map/level designer had to meet halfway with metzen's lore
obviously they didn't literally mean "no one must have set foot here in thousands of years", but in a fantasy setting this sounds far more grand than "woah this cave must be populated by at least 30 kobolds, 15 skeleton archers, 5 heretics, 3 harpies, a dragon, and a guardian wizard!!!"
and instead of having illidan say "what is this strange humanoid creature... are you an elf... without long ears... and with a pink skin... and you smell weird... very strange, you must be some sort of... demon... who do you worship??? Have you heard of the high elves???? I don't have eyesight anymore but I see through the spirit world and it says you are an evil being of undeath in humanoid form with a gastrointestinal energy system...", he just says "a human?" so the player gets the necessary context and can proceed with gameplay.
Imagine if you entered the cave and it was literally an empty map with nothing in it but rocks and corridors. Imagine if illidan stumbled all the time when running because he blind. That's just autism and taking things way too literally in a creative medium that heavily relies on the player filling in the gaps with their own imagination both in terms of graphics and storytelling

>>2363916
>>2363931
there is definitely silly stuff, like orcs see centaur fighting tauren in the first mission and Thrall says
>Those hideous creatures have the bodies of horses! Lok-tar Ogar!
like bruh, have you looked into a mirror before? and what about the bull creature? and why do you make it sound like you attack them because they are hideous horse creatures??

>>2363960
what a shit comparison, absolute nonsense to compare empty maps and illidan stumbling extremes to a simple dialogue not using a single word
fucking hell there are demons around, he is 10k years old, he is not going to be stuck up on "seeing" a pink round eared elf

>>2364041
>what a shit comparison, absolute nonsense
meant for >>2363856
>>2363916
>>2363931

>>2364041
Holy fucking shit go get checked you obnoxious insufferable autistic retard

>>2364041
I haven't played the campaigns in over a decade but you do seem to obsess and nitpick over the most meaningless details possible. You're going to ignore the fact that no peons were present on any of Thrall's ships during the first missions, but at the same time you're going to piss and shit yourself over Thrall calling centaurs hideous? As if Thrall was a human and perceived beauty in terms of human features? Humans are probably also hideous to orcs, so are elves.
This is an incredibly common trope in scifi and fantasy where multiple different races are involved. Do you think a mass effect Batarian perceives himself as hideous? Or a starcraft protoss? Or a d&d drow or githyanki?
Oh right, people with autism have a hard time accepting that others might have different opinions and worldviews.

>>2363926
This is incredible. Thank you

>>2363960
>heretics
Oh yeah, that was specifically the issue I had. As far as I'm aware there would have been no reason for a human(?) not from the Lordaeron expedition to be in Kalimdor at that time, and especially not one who does weird shit in unexplored caves. I just remembered that line in the mission from Thrall but not the actual inconsistency.
>>2364041
>Those hideous creatures have the bodies of horses! Lok-tar Ogar!
This also pissed me off extremely bad, but because the Orcs see two beast races in conflict and randomly decides one is more noble than the other, and subsequently start genociding Centaurs, then Harpies, then Quillboar etc who were merely existing on their own land. You know, same as they did in the Eastern Kingdoms and everywhere else they went. While simultaneously cutting down the Elves' sacred grove, killing demigods and drinking demon jizz. Fuck do I hate Orcs.

>>2364067
>but at the same time you're going to piss and shit yourself over Thrall calling centaurs hideous
this is in your head, but I guess there isn't much else in there if you say stupid shit like
>You're going to ignore the fact that no peons were present on any of Thrall's ships during the first missions
like what are you even about? this is the same bullshit as this >>2363960 retarded drivel
I am sorry that you guys >>2364060 >>2364062 can't understand this simple thing and feel this way but I used the word SILLY on purpose. not shit, silly.
I am not shitting or pissing myself over this, you spergs, I find these little things funny
what the fuck is wrong with you people jesus christ

>>2364077
>As far as I'm aware there would have been no reason for a human(?) not from the Lordaeron expedition to be in Kalimdor at that time
There are 3 human bandit mage model "Mystics" in Illidan's prison's library looking section. It's a bit out of place, but make sense that some wandering wizards end up in weird hidden magical places.

>>2364263
>It's a bit out of place, but make sense that some wandering wizards end up in weird hidden magical places
Nah man, it really doesn't. A group of wizards would not have set sail to another (unknown) continent to then stumble across the most magically important places featured in the warcraft 3 campaign. Brush it aside as random inconsistency and oversights or poor usage of models, but there's no justifying humans in Kalimdor, let alone in those specific locations

>>2364284
human* wizards, I should say

>>2364284
I don’t agree, if there is something that could end up anywhere then it’s a wizard.
Why would they need to sail in the first place? Some ancient elven artefact from before the Shattering teleported one to elven ruins in Kalimdor etc. You can have so many explanations with magic.
For me it’s steeper that the Night Elves would let them in there.

>>2364414
the Night Elves just sit in their forests and half their civilization is sleeping for thousands of years at a time, they couldn't be arsed to watch over the entire continent. It absolutely makes sense some stray wizards could find their way there.

>>2364758
>It absolutely makes sense some stray wizards could find their way there.
Yeah, but would the guards just let them in to live there?
Well, I guess they were all elf women and the mages had human male models...

>>2365009
>Yeah, but would the guards just let them in to live there?
We are approaching "what do they eat" and "where do they shit" territory dangerously fast.
STOP. OVERTHINKING. VIDEO. GAME. DESIGN.
They are there to be defeated by the player

>>2354440
In retrospective this shitass was small fish when compared to other franchises.

I loved this game. I was good enough to be ranked (top 1000) Orc spammer but thats hardly pro and the way Grubby micros it's like he is playing a totally different game with the focus on micro. I just played it like fantasy starcraft without cliffs.

My favorite thing about the game is how anti blobby it is. Like your armies are so small and even then you have them split up across the map doing different things. Very sweaty game, love it.

Some guy earlier complained about Raiders being useless, like holy shit dude they're so cheesy and strong.

>>2363856
The night elf campaign is kind of a mess compared to the rest.

The Arthas arc is the heart and soul of WC3.
The Orc is good too, manly tears ending cinematic.
The Elf campaign you just force yourself to finish. Kids dfucking loved Illidan though so what do I know.

>>2365385
in his own franchise he's small fish too. But that's only because in every new installment you need an even bigger and badder antagonist. At the moment of RoC's release he was fairly big fish

>>2365480
>Some guy earlier complained about Raiders being useless, like holy shit dude they're so cheesy and strong.
In RoC campaign.
I am aware they are good in MP, I played TFT multiplayer more than the rest of the game.

>Very sweaty game, love it.
Yes, the MP is very well put together, I also love it. It's one of the best RTS games in my opinion. Only Zero-K beats in pure gameplay and design, but just a very tiny little bit.

i'm fucking tired of undead and w3 players are the biggest cucks for not asking for nerfs
everything that you can complain about in other races is 10x as strong for ud
>nelf free moon juice?
ud heals by literally standing on the ground
>orc wolf harass is too annoying early?
ud can harass with summons without even using an ability (though he can if he chooses to)
>human expands too easily?
undead does it with just one worker and no units while simultaneously being able to attack your expo
good luck interrupting their expo
good luck harassing their main
good luck fighting on blight
good luck killing any of their heroes
good luck not getting 3x nuke
yea i'm mad fuck you so what

>>2365827
militia is way better than you're implying
i kinda agree though but mostly i would like to see frost nerfed to make punishing them much easier

>>2365827
>ud heals by literally standing on the ground
for 10 minutes
>ud can harass with summons without even using an ability (though he can if he chooses to)
he pays for it with gold
>undead does it with just one worker and no units while simultaneously being able to attack your expo
he pays for it with gold
how is this different from any other race
>good luck interrupting their expo
skill issue
>good luck harassing their main
skill issue
>good luck fighting on blight
why would you fight on blight, that's what UD wants
>good luck killing any of their heroes
skill issue
>good luck not getting 3x nuke
skill issue
>yea i'm mad fuck you so what
skill issue

>>2365869
and people wonder why rts is a dead genre lol

>>2365870
rts being a dead genre has literally nothing to do with undead game mechanics
if you told your post to someone new to the genre they'd say "what the fuck are you talking about you smelly shitskin fuck off and kill yourself already"

>>2365909
lol what an idiot

>>2366003
lol what a nigger

>>2365909
lmao

>>2365869
>for 10 minutes
Retard and scrub
>he pays for it with gold
Rather than mana which costs gold too idiot. If it weren't more gold efficient than literally anything else, all undead wouldn't use it. I even forgot to say that undead has abilities which not only deny those units but also heal them for it. Funny that
>how is this different from any other race
How is undead summoning 3 buildings with one worker different from any other race, you're asking me?
Just say you're retarded man

>ur a retard if you're not struggling against UD

Because you play at 2000 bnet elo and talk shit

undead isn't op and protoss isn't op either, you're just whining because you're bad
play undead if it's so good
>inb4 500 loss streak because bad at game in general

>>2366927
True.
Zerg is op

>>2354319
memes

>>2356663
>I am playing it right now after 20 years. It might have been a mistake to do it on normal but this shit isn't challenging or anything at all.
okay, yeah, unlike ROC the TFT campaign on hard is squeezing my balls a bit

And that's a good thing! With 2P campaigns you can go up to insane and impossible difficulty levels. Then you'd be crafting with war.