i love terran nerfs!
the worker change needed to happen years ago lol. sc2 esports will never come back

Mules, inject, and chronoboost should all be removed
Giving casters autoattacks was a mistake
I like the changes to starting workers and warpgate though.

>Arc slop increased to 180.
Wat?

>>2416469
I'm worried about how tje new meta will be. Someone who waits to reach 12 drones before expanding will die so fucking basly to a 8 pooler still. Will I have to start scouting as zerg now?

>>2416536
supposed to say Slope
as I understand it the value means that the mutalisk can fire in a 180 degree arc from it's forward facing position, which should make it more manoeuvrable
>>2416539
yes, you do not get to greed for free anymore

>>2416544
Cheese is bad for the game. It's fine to punish greed, but cheese is shit

>>2416555
Cheese is part of the genre. You have to decide whether you want to risk a greedy build, be safe, or be aggressive.
In a week there will be guides explaining how to defend against any new cheese and good players will handle it while you sit here and cry about it.

they still patch this game?

>>2416527
>Giving casters autoattacks was a mistake
Why? Do elaborate!

>>2416469
There's no way most of these changes will make it through because muh pro balance council won't agree to them

>>2416638
the balance council got fired like a year ago

My zerg build order with 8 workers:
>11 overlord
>12 pool
>14 hatch
>13 6 lings
>14 extractor
>16 queen

But I've already found that terran gets a reaper faster than I get 6 lings across on a 12 pool. So this build might be cooked. I guess I'll try out a 14 pool instead...but waiting for the ovie to pop is rough. Fucking shit, the lack of any guides is cooking me

>Economy
>Starting workers reduced from 12 to 8.
nice try but the correct amount is 9

t. has been saying this for over a fucking decade

>>2416555
aggressive builds are when sc2 is at its best, 200 pop mineouts are complete fucking garbage

wardii is whining like a bitch so you know it's a good idea, or possibly a just weekday

11 overlord
12 hatch
14 pool
16 gas(?)

Getting gas delays queen though...

>>2416851
who cares what you say

>>2416911
people who want to avoid big fucking i told you so's

this much change seems like it needs to be combined with different maps, you can't just slap this on modern maps for the last 10 years

>>2416969
They need to bring back 3/4 player maps as well
Fuck the "pros" crying about how it's so le heckin hard to scout more than one base :'(

>>2416976
there actually have a 3 player map this year
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Mothership_LE

>>2416636
F1 brain atrophy compared to cerebral BW unit groups

>>2417017
F2

Can't for the life of me figure out the ideal extractor timing for Zerg. By the time my spawning pool finishes, if I pull drones to gather gas, hell, to even make the extractor itself, I won't be able to get two queens. I can barely squeeze out one queen. Let alone the lings. So I think extractor comes AFTER queens AND are started, which makes reapers a bit more deadly, but I'm sure terrans can't rush mass reapers anymore either. Have yet to see a reaper proxy yet

>>2417017
>rallies ANOTHER devourer through the tank line

*defiler

>>2417057
devourers fly...

they should put all the stupid shit back in the game at the same time while doing this big of a changeup
>medicavs picking up sieged siege tanks
>mothership core with all its abilities
>infestors with infested terran

>>2416469
I have been enlightened by reading Zero-k balance process and my first thoughts are: what is actually a balance change and what is actually a redesign change?
Ghost: It seems they have no idea what they actually want this unit to be. A pure spellcaster, a spellcaster with some auto-attack, a glass canon with strong auto-attacks and spells, or an upgraded marines for lategame? The new proposal is all at once so they nerf it with a +50% pop cost and only slightly nerf his previous ridiculous tankyness.

Warpgate: After years, it is suddenly an unbrearable problem that must be redesigned (not rebalanced) after just one patch of Protoss forcing Terran to adapt (they are still massively favored in late game)? Why? It would be like redesigning Zerg instant-remax after 16 years.

>>2417017
>have one (1) defiler
>control the shit out of it
>stop the entire 200/200 terran army
vs
>have 8 infestors
>try to control the shit out of them
>they all die 0,00001s into the 5 second fight
SC2chuds need all the help

>>2417135
the ghost is simply too powerful against Z and P and should be nerfed or reworked.

Literally no one is talking about the patch itself and instead just circlejerking Broodwars for some reason

i think everyone should start with no workers and just 50 minerals

>>2416976
>>2416969
I think there's lot left to explore on the map side of things, especially for viewer enjoyment. The trouble is that pros categorically prefer consistency and thus they veto the most interesting maps. 4 players maps are hated by the pros for the same reason, the fact that you could play perfectly and yet scout wrong twice gives too much ground to the guy who blindly all ins against nominally stronger opponents. Disregarding the whole worker start thing, one thing I would have liked to see is just lot wilder maps since if everyone is going to go fast expand anyways may as well mix it up. Low ground main high ground natural, double back expands but no easy 4th base, close by mains where both sides expand away from the opponent, rush paths that start open but then close up when rocks time out, additional entrances to the main with rocks, 4 player maps that aren't squares (and non square maps in general) so the rush distance could be really short or really long, those wings of liberty close air rush long ground rush maps etc.

However I do not think maps and major balance should be mixed up. I think the gateway change in particular is too much to mix with the economy changes since the economy changes will inevitably tear up all builds and balance which may hide any issues with the gateways for instance. If you throw in bunch of experimental maps you can't really pinpoint the issue like is the 8 pool too good or do the maps just favor it type of thing. I think in principle the 8 worker change is great and will definitely liven up the early game a lot, prefer that over the wild maps desu but I had kinda resigned myself into the idea that blizzard will never do major shakeups anymore and thus everything had to be shaken up trough the maps specifically.

>>2417161
one peon no townhall start or bust

>been enjoying the campaign and coop of sc2 again recently
>see this balance change
>feel like trying pvp again
>queue up 1 match
>most miserable experience ever
>go back to the actually fun game modes instead
sc2 ladder is mostly just an autism apm check instead of actual strategy, it's a real shame because all the other modes are amazing in comparison, no shit the game (and the rts genre in general) died because companies only gave a shit about esports dogshit that the vast majority of players don't actually want to play even if they enjoy watching it

>>2417267
>APM autismo
Ignore all the 60APM to master challenges kekaroo

>>2417139
they are literally nerfing it

>>2417329
My entire point is that most of sc2 ladder is having adhd and autism for the build orders and macro and having the gamesense to not get cheesed. Anything beyond that is just apm.

Practicing build orders so much they became automatic and rewiring your brain to have a fucking unit production queue timer constantly tickling your balls isn't fucking strategy.

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is it a good time to jump into SC2? i want to learn an RTS but i can't decide between this and AoE2

>>2417398
Yes

>>2417398
If this patch actually gets released then yeah

>>2417398
I've been playing the new patch in the PTR and everyone is in full panic mode and build orders are all over the place. Had some cuck toss build pillons in my main for a warp gate rush zealot all in. Would have worked too if I hadn't sneaked a secret hatchery in his main and counter rushed him. But now I have to worry between if its a cannon rush (pull half of workers) or just a pillon for warp ins (ignore till lings are out) so fuck my life

>ghosts take up 3 supply
how much do they eat goddamn

>>2417465
They just don't want you to run full ghost armies late game which I think is fair.

Starting to get the hang of the early game.

>>2416895
why not just 15 hatch?

>>2416469
>huge patch
>x reduced to x-1
>y increase to y+1

>>2417512
>reworking the core mechanic of one of the three races and changing how the entire economy works isn't huge

>GSL season 1 ended on may 17
>GSL season 2 started on may 20
why are they back to back

>>2417345
Nerfed when 200 pop.
Massively buffed before 200 pop.

Nailed down my own personal opening finally, this seems to match perfectly and feels good

>11 overlord
>13 hatch
>14 pool
>18 overlord
>18 two queens and 4 lings
>18 extractor

And then just drone on from there. Now to figure out the new roach warren timing and upgrade timings. Lair timings... all I can say though is that it seems protoss is scouting way more often and leading to more blocked hatcheries. You can avoid this by doing a 12 hatch but it's a bit weaker and the timing doesn't match the pool finishing anymore. Adepts are extremely powerful right now since they finish quicker, at least I've been getting wrecked by adepts a lot.

>>2417519
low funding

>>2417345
snipe and EMP are way too powerful

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>>2417182
based

>>2417357
i think you're old enough for us to tell you the truth - rts games are not strategy games. they are action games.

>>2417575
how would you change snipe and emp?

Inject larva/chronoboost are super stupid mechanics and aren't removed because Starcrap is badly designed from the ground up and eliminating these chores would expose that this game is actually very shallow and it's just about bloating your attention to disguise this fact
SC2 is about openings, cheese and spam all ins

>Picture this
>Zerg have suicide units that are costly as fuck
>And when you build them, they can only attack once and at melee range
>So you lose money when they don't hit a target AND when they do because they don't always kill

>And they only hit grounded units
>And do friendly fire
>And the only way to produce them is a two step process where you build then sacrifice your defining unit to it
>And you have to inject larvas like a spastic for awhile to get enough of them
>And they require zergling instead of larva
>And you need to land at least two of them to kill a single worker

>>2417642
sounds absolutely busted, like they will define fundamental combat interactions for the entire history of the game

Serral PTR build order against Byun (Terran)

>12 overlord
>12 extractor trick
>15 hatch
>17 pool
>17 extractor
>18 overlord
>18 double queen and skip lings
>30 ling speed (2:55)
>30 third hatch (3:00)
>29 overlord
>32 overlord
>lair (4:45)
>fourth hatch (5:20)
>spores (5:25)
>bane nest/roach warren (5:30)
>double evo (5:45)

Of course ling accordingly to agression. I know for a fact a glaves adept all in can happen by 5:30 so if against toss you might want roaches or banes a bit earlier

>>2417598
Nexon will save starcraft with their new game

>>2417670
Koreans can't save shit.

>>2417583
Then get the fuck out of /vst/.

>>2417676
>including both turn-based and real-time strategy, turn-based and real-time tactics, single-player and multi-player (including MOBAs)
action game board, dwi

>>2417645
It is, the ability to turn extra resources into extra power even beyond the supply cap is fantastic. The fact that they can cost effectively annihilate all of the basic units of all races is just extra on top. Banes would still be good if they were for Terran or Protos but they are extra good for Zerg specifically because they are the quickest to remax meaning you are incentivized to suicide your entire army and if yours kills the opponents you come out massively on top when you remax in 30 seconds

I really like the warpgate change at least conceptually not sure if the balance is right. Before you got like 1-3 units out of your gateways unless you were cheesing but now you can use them pretty legitimately until mid game with some real strategic choice on when to if ever you change them over to warpgates. You definitely want warpgates eventually but with the resource cost and the fact that you can make units faster from gateways makes it an interesting tradeoff on when you go for the warps.

>>2417345
>they are literally nerfing it
>literally nerfing
-Attack range increased from 6 to 7
-Snipe no longer cancels upon taking damage

The most asinine thing about them made even worse.
Lock on expensive gas units? -10k in units lost. Good bye. GGWP.

>>2419172
The damage increase on non-light units is just as big, ghosts destroy banelings now.

>>2417683
>The fact that they can cost effectively annihilate all of the basic units of all races
*if they are conveniently lumped together, alone without other units around and your opponent is watching some video on a second screen instead of playing

Not to be dramatic, but I'm retiring from playing Sc2 and instead I'll just occasionally watch Serral play instead.

All the builds and strats I grinded over the years - pissed away.
Total casual death... I hate this patch with passion.

>>2419369
quitting because your one trick got nerfed is the epitome of being a casual bitch THOUGH

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SC2 has always been a hot topic for me because i genuinely know it is a badly designed game and stopped playing a long time ago

I'm curious about it though because I had fun with it -sometimes- but mules and injecting larva and a bunch of obfuscating shit is just there to prevent people from realizing they're not fighting the other player but the game itself, because the interface and orders are awful. But i want to try this patch to see if there's something i like now.

I wish they just removed inject larva and mules and chronoboost and stopped pretending the game is nothing more than spam and deathballs. C&C games are that but they embrace it. There's still some fun to be had with simple games. Maybe they can add some actual depth instead of pretending to be deep.

>>2416469
>Steady Targeting:
>No longer cancels upon taking damage.

Pure insanity. I can't even imagine the mental state of someone proposing this. This madness, plus the +10 attack, likely means that a Ghost can attack a Broodlord straightforwardly and win.

>>2419719
With the supply increase that's a fight you should win as zerg so long as you commit with an infestor or something into the fight. Though if you dance around then you will lose.

>>2419725
Do you... Even play this game?

>>2419725
>4 pop broodlord + 2 pop infestor should win against 3 pop ghost

Thank for the insight, terran apologist.

>>2419737
You need 2 snipes to kill a broodlord but with 3 supply ghosts zerg can come to the fight with a broodlord and a roach or 4 lings or something for every 2 ghosts you bring. I believe if the Zerg comes in with 10 broodlords an infestor and 9 roaches and just A moves into 20 ghosts that snipe all of the broods the fungal, the roach damage and the boordlord/broodlings damage will leave the zerg standing in that engagement. Same should still work out if you come in with a flank of 40 zerglings or some banelings etc. That's ignoring the fact that the ghost player has to do something that's arguably more difficult in that scenario which is accurately layer the snipes on the broods while the zerg just really has to A move + land a fungal on the ghosts that are sitting still channeling their own spell.

>>2419741
You need 2 ghosts to snipe the broodlords so it's broodlord and 2 supply of support units vs 2 ghosts.

>>2419745
What a weird way to reaffirm that you don't play this game.

>>2419747
I just don't think the matchup is as one sided as you paint it to be, Ghost is supposed to counter the broodlord and with good play that should remain the case even with the supply advantage but it's not some kind of brainless silver bullet. In a real engagement you can't just stand there sniping broods when the zerg has much larger conventional army and is rolling in with banelings that just demolish ghosts requiring one less hit now than pre patch too.

>>2419745
Broodlords are more expensive than ghosts, take far longer to make than ghosts, require way more tech than ghosts, and are more vulnerable than ghosts. The ghost is meant to be a counter to broodlords, and the infestor was a counter to ghosts. But no longer.

broodlords use their children to fight for them and can't actually do anything themselves, ghosts are cool and therefore they should be better

8 pool destroys zerg

8-9-10 pool gets obliterated by terran (both depos already up and reaper 5 seconds away from being done)

Haven't tested it against toss because toss always early scouts and it pisses me the fuck off

>>2420558
You have to scout early otherwise you die to the 8 pool. I don't think it's all that difficult to defend though if you do scout and the map isn't super small.

>>2420679
Zerg should never scout, they are the punching bag anyway. Toss should always scout and Terran only scouts if they wish to greed a CC first

>>2420702
I meant that toss has to scout the zerg otherwise they die to the 8 pool so they never die to the 8 pool because they always scout it

I'm getting my ass eaten EVERY SINGLE TIME I try to transition into mutas, holy fuck. At least two base muta seems to be just dead in the water.

Why does Blizzard have such a hardon for fucking over Zerg in SC2? Is it because it was the best race in WoL? This race is absolutely no fun in LotV where you’re just a punching bag for 5-6 minutes trying to lose as few drones as possible so you can then start finally playing the game

>>2417109
Zero-k's approach to balance is an outlier. In most companies, balance team is explicitly a customer satisfaction role. Your primary job is to collect data in user complaints and address them. It doesn't matter if a unit has an overwhelming pick/win rate if nobody complains about it. It doesn't matter if a unit is technically fine, if people complain you have to do something.
Companies like Blizzard regard balance as a money sink with very low value. Being on the balance team isn't a prestigious position, it's punishment and usually means you're on your last chance before becoming a layoff. Most people on these teams are either desperately trying to generate positive impact metrics they can use to save their careers and escape balance hell, or they're already checked out and spend most of their chair time looking for a new job.

Once you understand that, both the explicit role these people occupy and the underlying psychology of it, you will understand what water-treading, can-kicking balance patches like this come from. There's no longer a competitive authority hovering overhead to say "hey don't need this faction again they're already weak" so balance changes are guided entirely by complaint and matchmaking zeitgeist with no greater vision or design conscious.

>>2421258
ongoing retribution from broodfestor days. zerg is overpowered at the highest levels of play but shit everywhere else, but every race is in a wierd position where a seemingly simple change leads to msssive balance problems, i.e. reactor cyclones, infested marines doing spell damage, og shield battery overcharge.

>>2421477
>zerg is overpowered at the highest levels of play
Lets not make these dumb, baseless statements.

>>2421786
It's a strictly true statement but paints the wrong picture when really it's just Serral being the best. One of those what if Serral played Terran instead thing you know.

>>2421795
I don't know how Serral would play Terran, but if he were playing Protoss, I would expect him to constantly cast Revelations and do hit-and-run attrition with Tempests; something no Protoss tries to do. Almost makes you wonder what is the use of those 400 APM pros have.

>>2421824
One of the funniest things I see when I watch pros play is the classic "spend lots of effort microing army while it's doing nothing, then looking away to hit that macro right as something interesting is about to have". Type examples of this are doing a hallucination scout or sending in the oracles or microing air units in general. Like you know you are running those banshees into the enemy base, is THIS really the right moment to queue up more marines? I think Serral is phenomenal in the way he gets more out of his clicks than most others.

>>2421795
>It's a strictly true statement
No it's not. It lacks any rigor.
What people often mean by this is that Zerg wins a lot of tournaments. And that statement in turn denies the context of what actually happened in those games OR ignores the fact that' professional pool consists of barely ~30 players.
It's a strictly whimsical statement.

Starting to piss me off that I can't find any build orders just because it's a PTR. How the fuck do I do a roach timing attack with 8 worker start? When do I get evo chambers and start upgrades? Lair timing?

Not even one Reddit thread at the very least to theorize build orders together. It was fun being blind at first but now I just feel inefficient

>>2422087
It's PTR some of those things will change, no one will bother making up build orders when they are just experimenting with them. You shouldn't be laddering on PTR unless you can come up with build orders yourself anyways.

>>2422087
I was doing Serral's build that anon posted earlier in this thread and it seems to be working nicely

>>2422090
I'm the one who posted that. I didn't use it because that turned out to be Serral's first time playing the PTR. He did say the extractor trick isn't worth it and 11 overlord is probably better since youre not floating larva anyway. But I guess I can try just following that build

>>2422087
SC2 sucks so much because it's all about timings instead of tactics, because fighting doesn't matter but the bare minimum
Its all etas and cheese

>>2422168
Cheese is literally the definition of tactics. Nobody chooses the fair fight if they can set conditions for an unfair fight instead.

Combat sucks ass in these games anyways. Nobody, not even the pros, are carefully microing 200 supply armies, they just box select, A-move, stutter step and occasionally cycle through their hotkeyed casters for a battle-turning nuke spell that's worth more individually than the entire rest of the 200 supply army. When RTS try to force you to engage with their blob army gameplay they just drive their players away and fail, starcraft stuck around because their incompetence let cheese, and thus the competitive community thrive. Now all they do is keep the cheeses rotating so one doesn't get too stinky before it's replaced.

>>2422213
>Cheese is literally the definition of tactics. Nobody chooses the fair fight if they can set conditions for an unfair fight instead.
This is downstream of the merchant caste conquering the noble and priest castes.

>>2422213
Cheese is almost always a strategy actually.

>>2422213
Explain the strategy of shield battery void rays or mass reapers in earlier patches? Just abusing extremely broken mechanics isn't strategy. Cheese =/= strategy

>>2416469
There is no reason for the game to be updated. Game was finished in 2010. Every fucking update in this game's history provides the illusion of change and is unnecessary.

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>Protoss OP, say the Terrans

>>2422590
>Zergs rub hands in the corner

Make overlords slightly faster again, revert ghost damage buff, give vipers a phantom auto attack like disruptors, buff spore damage against all types rather than just biological, and send the patch live

>>2422222
merchants never rule m8

>>2422681
Spore isn't supposed to counter terran or protoss mass air, you are suppose to scout those. Zerg air has to be countered more strongly by the spore because Zerg can instantly shit out 30 mutas in a tech switch.

>>2422685
If the oponent zerg has managed to save up 3000/3000 resources without you killing them, that'd be quite impressive on you. Mutas already get raped by spores without the buff. And they are insanely expensive (imo mutas should be 100/75 for how weak they are). Spores ass raping oracles would stop one of the most cancerous metas in SC2 rn which is to rush oracle in every PvZ matchup

>>2422213
>When RTS try to force you to engage with their blob army gameplay they just drive their players away and fail,
Play good RTS games please (not just Starcrap)

>>2422854
It's just a question of how prepared you have to be for this kind of thing. If you scout a Terran and you see he's on factory tech how many Banshees can you realistically expect to hit you in 2 minutes? Like 40 for a port and switch, 40 seconds for a banshee so 1 just about gets there in time. If you scout the Terran every 2 or 3 minutes then you aren't in immediate threat of dying from the air. Same thing with Protos, 40 for a Stargate, 40 for the Oracles you can probably just about get 2 if you chronoboost them out. Again not an immediate threat if left unscouted for 2 minutes. If you do the same with Zerg and see that he has a lair, that's 70 seconds for a Spire 25 for Mutas to pop and you could easily have enough for 8 or even 10 saved up just within the Spires build time. That means you are in immediate danger of just outright dying if your bases are unguarded when this hits. More over let's say you do scout that the opponent has spire/gate/port and do build a spore in time. The Spore has to be a credible threat to pack of 8-10 or so Mutas otherwise it simply just doesn't do it's job as an early anti-air defense in that matchup. The Mutas have both much more HP and more damage than the 1-2 Banshees or 2 Oracles you could expect in a similar window of time.

>>2417592
I would move EMP to the raven, increase the cost slightly, and make it so protoss shield upgrades reduce the damage they take from EMP by x% (energy loss is still the same though)
Also taking damage should increase the cast time of snipe but not cancel it completely.

>>2425048
EMP being on the raven fixed so many issues with Terran it is unreal. Hydras being hatch tech as well. Balance council is so fucking bad

>>2425048
>>2425093
>EMP being on the raven fixed so many issues with Terran it is unreal. Hydras being hatch tech as well.
I feel like you fellas might wanna try this other rts blizzard made, it's even better balanced despite having not been patched for years...

>>2425101
Not being able to select your whole army and being limited to 12 is a cancer from old RTS games that I simply cannot tolerate.

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>>2416469
>huge patch
>it's a few balance numbers tweaked
Do balancefags really?

>>2425251
It's the biggest patch since Legacy of the Void, completely reworks Protoss and changes the economy for all races.

>>2425101
I just think the power budget of the ghost is too high and it should either have snipe or EMP, not both.

>>2425252
Sounds like change for the sake of change, and not for gradual improvements.

>>2425349
no virtue in stagnancy, and slowing down the start is undoing an old mistake

>>2425349
>>2425338
>>2425349
>>2425252
Will they ever remove inject larvae and creep tumors?

>>2416469
>Neural Parasite on builder SCVs will only expire at structure completion.
It's annoying that the game didn't launch with this. Does the other faction still share your own supply too?

>>2425384
Didn't they say they also were going to add a ranged attack to casters (stupid Infestors) so they don't walk head on with A move towards the enemy? I tried SC2 2 days ago and it was the same game as always

>>2425384
You still only get 200 supply. It's a meme but a good meme. Honestly i'm not entirely not convinced that if you "just got" an SCV after you finish hive or something that it wouldn't be worth it to tech to medivacs and build couple sensor towers regardless though. Just too much hassle to do it if an enemy is harassing you + you need to also get a command center to truly get an SCV of your own.

>>2425389
The patch isn't on live, it's just on PTR now and yes infestors have a dummy attack now just like high templar.

>>2425392
>have a dummy attack now just like high templar.
I suggested this like 10 years ago because it was really amateurish to have a game with these issues

Blizzard and SC2 has been a forced meme for years and there are much better games in the genre already

>>2425398
>issues
It's a design choice. It's fine if units exists that are harder to control properly.

i'm tired of a-moving my warp prisms with my army and they just die, give them an auto-attack

>>2425370
>no virtue in stagnancy

Then focus on underutilised units: Battlecruisers, Swarmhosts and Adepts.

>>2425378
at this point everyone knows that a) the 'macro mechanics' were a mistake and b) you can't unfuck it without rebalancing literally everything

>>2425378
Are you retarded? Those are incredibly fun. I love spreading creep. Hate seeing it be killed though

>>2417583
StarCraft 2 is an immersive sim, just like every other game ever made

>>2425417
>It's a design choice.
Its a bad design choice

>>2426110
you were a bad design choice

>>2425398
name 6 better games in the genre

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>>2426328
Dawn of War
Company of Heroes 1
Age of Empires 2
Supreme Commander
Beyond All Reason
Starcraft 1

>>2425378
>retard newfag doesn't remember when macro mechanics were removed in LOTV and it was universally hated
To begin with, spreading tumors and larva injects were added because the game had no skill expression without them. It's never getting removed because you are overwhelmingly in the minority

>>2426441
>no TibSun
retard

>>2426471
He was asked to provide six so he provided six
Not his fault that list of games better than sc2 is longer

>>2426478
Indeed that is correct
And even though I do love Tiberian Sun it is kinda ass to play in MP to be quite honest

>>2426441
>dow 2 instead of 3 in purgatory
>act of aggression still in purgatory
>homeworld 3 and c&c 4 are absent from purgatory
>warno isn’t in purgatory
>c&c games in a backwards order, lumped together with tempest rising of all things and aren’t split into more sci-fi and more surreal
>first red alert and emperor battle for dune are missing
>tempest rising isn’t in purgatory
>zero-k? bar? gates of hell?
With each passing iteration this chart gets worse and worse as a new young larper tries to improve on garbage instead of making it from ground up

>>2426471
It’s there, it’s just hidden behind Twat Wars and lumped together with Tranny Rapist and RA3

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>>2426541
Never mind, bar and zerok are there, I’ve been blinded by my rage

>>2426441
>SupCom 2
>Some people like them

Really?

is there no active SC2 general?

>>2426655
you people and the league of legends fags are the reason /vg/ exists

>>2426687
Funny that the SC2 general was such a shithole that they were banned off /vg/ afterwards too lmao

>>2426655
there isn't. For some reason this game is unable to create a worthwhile general zone anywhere. I keep checking every few months since like 2015 it's always either kshitters who stopped playing the game years ago or e-celeb shit or just a dead thread.

>>2426655
Starcraft 2 general chat is pretty active

>>2428326
You can't call terrans niggers there though

>>2428362
>You can't call terrans niggers
You can't now?
Pretty sure you could not that long ago or is my memory wrong? You could enable or disable language filter, but that just replaced stuff with "*" for you alone. I'll repeat that I might remember it wrong, but I've seen pretty wild rants in general chat and e-celebs stay away from it as far away as they can during streams.

>>2428401
So... Are you saying that SC2 general is Wargame: Bad Dragon global chat reborn?

>>2428362
Are there even any niggers in starcraft 2? I played the campaigns when i was like 11 years old and I don't think any of the 1v1 units are black.

>>2428422
Yes. Warfield is the first black character that comes to mind, so is Duran from SC1. I don't think any of the actual game portraits for any 1v1 unit is black, but it's safe to assume that lot of the infantry units are in fact blacks since I think marines and reapers at least were for the most part convicts.

>>2428454
Marauders are def black

>>2428458
Despite being just 13% of the sector population, blacks make up over 50% of the Marauders. This shows that Ghosts discriminate in patrolling black neighborhoods. Saying that perhaps they should stop murdering is anti-khalani

>>2428422
Gabriel Tosh is forgotten...
Also I'm pretty sure both firebats and marauders are black, even in Heroes of the Storm the firebat rep Blaze is black in that one skin that removes his armor

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>>2428468
>I'm a terrazine nigger and I want to be free
>Hell with the N double A C P
>I dont drink
>I dont cuss
>I wanna ride on the front of the bus

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>>2428468
>>2428522

>>2428528
what?

The Raven AI identifies as Black

>>2426572
SupCom2 is like going out for burgers or pizza rather than actual dining out. Way less choice but its much quicker. SC2 does have a lot thats really fun like the Nove unit cannon or more fun strategic weapons.

>>2428422
Yeah, all protoss are niggers

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the fuck is RSL

>>2429419
the racist starcraft league, tasteless can't control himself

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>>2429466
based

>>2429469
is this why nathanias was blacklisted from casting?

>Patch update
Zerg bros hope is on the horizon

>Zerg cabal gets all their nerfs reverted again
every single time

>>2432268
MULEs and chronoboost are bad but larva injection is a gut punch made "gameplay" and will never ever be fixed

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>>2432269
scarlet is a big part of that team and can be very persuasive

>>2432351
you think they Eiffel tower'd that?

>>2432363
you think they didn't Eiffel tower that?

>>2432268
Zerg finally getting buffed without any nerfs. Maybe we won't be oracle/banshee/adept/liberator punching bags anymore

They should test removing injects, maybe Zergtrannies should learn to build some macro hatches instead

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>>2432985
>queens have their limiters removed, no longer chained to hatcheries and forced to waste energy on macro

>>2432982
The patch was really rough for Zerg early game. They got hit the hardest by the 8 worker start in terms of how far it sets them for certain worker and tech goals. Adepts and Oracles in particular just didn't exists in the before times when early pools were more viable. Terran has always been kinda immune to them anyways but at least they were forced to be bit cautious and build on the high ground.

>>2433016
It would be a gigantic nerf. Instead of having queens that can fight and most importantly shoot air you now need more hatcheries, which means you either don't get queens or you don't get army and drones (because of no larva) since you need to put down extra hatchery for every expansion you put down just to keep making stuff.

>>2432351
>>2432363
daily reminder these are male logs he's shitting out

>>2429469
based

>>2432982
that won't last, they already started whinging about it, they will revert it
all i ever wanted was another option...A option to queens, i just wanted the buff hatchery is getting and hydralisk at hatchery tech

>>2433232
The worst nerf to the hydra wasn't the cost or tech level, it was going from hitscan to projectile for no fucking reason.

>>2433273
terran units should change to projectiles instead of hitscan tbqhwymnh

Inject larva should have a cast time of like 15 seconds and have an elaborate animation of the queen impregnating the hatchery
Also creep tumours should be removed and replaced by creep colonies, which then get upgraded into spores or spines
Also you should be limited to one queen per hatchery.

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>>2433282

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we've all though about it, i mean come on the thing is asking for it with it's giant soft warm undulating hole

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>>2433321
instead of queens injecting, hatchery/lair/hive should have the consume ability where a unit is chucked into the mouth? and is slowly consumed over the course of 10 seconds granting 50% of the resources a unit is worth and a larva

>>2433327
>spend 100% of the resources and a larva to make 50% of the resources and larva

>>2433331
zerglings

>>2433356
>instead of queens injecting you now have to cycle in zerglings to transform 25 minerals into one larva
such mechanics much wow

>>2433356
>>2433327
I think at this point it would be better to feed it larvae to spawn more larvae after a certain period of time, so you either have larvae now for immediate impact (making more drones/military units) or losing the "now" factor for future big gains

>>2433359
>>2433363
or you could just make a macro hatchery
and we could remove chrono boost
and mules

Is protoss still in the game? If so, why?

>>2433364
Kinda like the dedication to the seethe

>>2433364
I agree but since we need to appease muh clicking addicts I'm just spitballing ideas

>>2433327
There should be a hive tech upgrade that makes hatcheries generate larva faster so you can get rid of queens and just rely on hatches in late game.

>>2433366
present but marked as deprecated

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lol even the zerg pros know the larva change is fucking retarded

>>2433474
the pros will complain from anything that either changes their established playstyle or builds in any way or anything that is that allows noobs to keep up like more autocasts
they should first fucking play it for at least a month before they bitch about it

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>>2433487
it was more about how effortlessly the zergs smashed there way through this ro8
friendly reminder that reynor streams league more than starcraft now

>>2433491
protoss who?

>Larva/Eggs will no longer collide with/block player structures or units.
i appreciate this far more than the queen "buff" going from 175 to 150 again

>>2433575
was that a problem people ran into?

>>2433579
trapped my queen between 2 ballsacks as she was injecting when an oracle passed by on more than one occasion, yes am platinum

>>2433575
wait, just the larva and their eggs not the ravager bane and lurker too?

>>2433579
it was annoying a bit

so is it better for protoss to go full warpgates or gateways now? who played enough to actually tell? which one feels better?

>>2434577
Warpgates are still better thanks to the fact that they put the units directly where they are needed, you also only pay the supply and resource cost for a unit when you need it instead of 20 seconds earlier. You loose the 50 resources to transform a gateway but that's just cost of doing business now. If you are specifically planning to defend (with your gateway units anyways) you don't have to transform to warp right away since you want the units near the gateways anyways so you can push for an expansion or tech timing harder but by the mid game you definitely need warpgates. Basically get your 3rd, your first air unit your robo or your dark shrine going and then transform.

Protoss is balanced around the fact that they can take a fight and then have 30 supply of zealots join the army 10 seconds after it happened from a nearby prism or a nexus area (and now pylons just anywhere). This does not work without warpgates. Even if you aren't maxed out by the time you get to even your third base producing from a gateway will just be slower than doing it from a warpgate simply because the units take time to waddle to where they are needed and it's easier to miss out on queuing units in gateways to miss precious seconds that don't matter so much with warps

>>2434577
Protoss players are utterly retarded. You're supposed to convert them into warp gates when the opponent is attacking you or you are attacking them. During idle time, you leave them as gateways. They can't seem to grasp this simple fucking fact and just force themselves to go warp gate 24/7 and complain

>>2434577
Always go warpgates, the minor increase in production speed means nothing when you still have to run your army across the map / between bases.
You still save time by just warping units in where you need them, and have the added benefit of the panic "oh shit I need to quickly rebuild 20 zealots" button

>patch got pushed to live servers
So this is how SC2 dies?

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they made larva from 10.7 to 9 initially, now to 9.5, left queens 175 and made hatcheries 300...and pushed it live

>>2435265
bro you don't understand zerg was underpowered please ignore tournament results for the past 7 years

>>2435259
jorg killed hots, it's only appropriate that they kill lotv too

FUCKING PIECES OF SHIT NERFED ZERG IN RETURN FOR 1 SECOND FASTER LARVAS FUCK MY LIFE

>>2435267
Zerg is the most hurt by the 8 worker start, they definitely needed something. I don't think this was it though but the direction is right. They need to buff zerg instead of nerfing the other two. The problem with larva spawn rate is that while it does fix the early game timing issue it keeps reverberating until the late game, particularly the mid game droning is accelerated for no reason.

Dude my skills feel like I am back to silver league execution wise wtf am I doing I can't seem to get into the groove. I'm missing injects, forgetting essential tech, not scouting properly. It's as if as soon as the muscle memory gets fucked with my whole game got fucked

>>2416469
The Ghost Steady Targetting change goes against more than 25 years of design philosophy starting from Starcraft 1.
Never ever has a spellcaster been given an ability that literally translates to "energy = pure unavoidable damage".

Some spells were treading the line. Fungal is unavoidable pure damage but the value is low, and the ball can be dodged. Storm can be escaped. Previous Steady Targetting was cancellable. Feedback is only for spellcasters. The closest we had before was Parasitic Bomb where the victim had to go through 120 damage, but I guess that could be justified by Zerg otherwise terrible AA.

This shows Blizzard total intellectual bankruptcy and, even more bizarrely, it also makes no sense. If the problem with balance was that Ultralisks are unstoppable against Terran, it would have made sense if we assume the people in charge is a pajeet who doesn't give a fuck about anything, but what does it actually fix here? I have no idea.

>>2435549
broodling doesn't count as a damage spell, then?

then the solution here is to have snipe always kill the target

>>2435549
>this nigger has never heard of plague
lmao

they should patch BW imagine the shitstorm

>>2435549
>Never ever has a spellcaster been given an ability that literally translates to "energy = pure unavoidable damage".
what is plague and irradiate and EMP (vs protoss)

>>2435847
i would trade all the zerg units and larva in the game for zerg to have defilers with unchanged spellkit

>>2435549
>goes against more than 25 years of design philosophy starting from Starcraft 1
irradiate, plague, spawn broodling, yamato, etc
are you retarded?

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>>2435902
>to encourage more active play in the early game we have decided every match would start with 12 workers

I have come to shill the Nightmare difficulty mod for SC2 - my interest in SC2 has spiked on account of the 8 worker start so I've been replaying it since the announcement, this shit is actually difficult and exciting. I can honestly say this is one of the best videogames I've played and the installation for it is easy as hell.

Please anon, if you like the singleplayer then give the nightmare mods a go!

Lower worker start is actually a good thing
I'm sorry your tiktok zoomer brains can't handle it

>>2435902
Koreans will just reject it and branch.

>>2435968
People generally aren't mad at the lower work start or the mineral changes specifically except maybe some casters. The lower work start is what I would call a categorically good change. That does not mean they can't find ways to fuck it up.

zergbros what is our build order

>>2436089
I'm doing 15 hatch, 16 extractor 15 pool exclusively because I like it when the timing of my hatch finishing matches the pool and I can make two queens at the same time. 11 overlord and 18 overlord. The rest I've yet to figure out.

>>2436089
I think the super early pools just don't work particularly well, at least not against P or T. I think droning up to 12 and then sort of pretending like nothing has changed works for the most part. Nothing about Zerg has actually changed fundamentally to change your strategies in the sense (unlike the warpgate or ghost changes) so old builds mostly work the same just with different timings. The larva buff works sort of silently in the background, I suppose it does benefit ling spam more than ultra rushing but then again it helps you scale the eco too. Watch out for early gasses though you seem to have more minerals than you actually do at low worker counts.

>>2436115
>>2436131
What if im getting 8 pooled, also do you bother sending a drone to fuck with terrans building their wall

>be zerg
>get buffs
>play as if nothing has changed while the other 2 races have to come up with completely new build orders
zergbros is it our era

>>2436159
In ZvZ early pools are fine, it's a rock paper scissors type of thing it has always been. Rushes beat economy builds, economy builds beat conservative builds and conservative builds beat rushes.

>also do you bother sending a drone to fuck with terrans building their wall
I mean if you are all in you may as well all in harder.

>>2436167
Zerg is hurt by far the most by the 8 worker economy changes. It's just that the balance of their units or stuff hasn't changed. Before the larva change you went from 12 workers (with 3 larva) to 12 workers starting situation to 12 workers and protos having 11 and a pylon which means that essentially P/T were ahead in tech from the get go. This is because with the 12 worker start P/T were already no longer limited by money but by construction time since 12 workers can gather enough minerals for a gate/rax during the construction of the pylon/depot and for the first unit during the construction of the building.
It's not like the other races just got nerfed either, Protoss warpgates are stronger than ever once you pay the tax to transform them. A classic 4 gate for instance costs you 200 resources more to transform and 100 for a pylon but you save a robo and a prism which is 500 resources which means this type of 4-8 gate pressure is actually stronger on the offence than it used to be. Similarly ghosts are worse when massed up and maxed out but stronger in the mid game and when used for snipe.

>>2436167
Zerg has always done well in low starting worker count eras. The biggest problem with modern SC2’s direction was how Terran and Protoss were capable of teching while simultaneously expanding/taking their natural with very little risk thanks to map designs that’re disadvantageous to Zerg units. Zerg players are either A) forced to do risky all-ins because fighting on a similar economy doesn’t work against races whose units are more cost efficient than yours or B) macroing hard to economically outpace and whittle down your opponent in a war of attrition.
The latter turned out to be more reliable but you’re forced to play defensively because all of your resources are funneled into Hatcheries and drones for long-term gain. Hence the “punching bag” identity that the race assumed in LotV. The more starting workers, the faster and higher the income, the less pronounced Zerg’s early game advantage is which happens to be larva- you can make multiple workers or army units while other races are stuck queuing up single-file per structure (at least, this was true in SC1/BW).
With 8 workers AND shorter larva spawn time, Zerg enjoys that advantage again. The other races take longer to reach their higher tech structures and units- polarizing units like Oracles, Banshees, and mass Hellions aren’t just swooping in by the 3 minute mark anymore.
Meanwhile, you can easily saturate your natural while working on your third while sitting behind a healthy amount of Queens and a sizable ling force if you were feeling extra cautious. Even early Reapers and double Adept openers don’t feel like threats anymore with how easy it is to churn out drones and lings early-game.
Zerg still had fundamental design flaws in SC2 like how fucking awful some of the units are, but it doesn’t really matter when you can bust your opponent’s front door open with like 30 hydras at 5 mins while they’re sitting on maybe 2 tanks or a single Colossus and 4 warpgates.

>>2436089
You've got to open 3pool first against T since the reaper gets there way too early otherwise. I'm doing safe builds for now since there's so much cheese

I saw a spine rush versus P that I want to try as well, from ROgue I think?

Mostly I've been sticking to my guns and using ling bane hydra versus T and roach allins versus P

>>2436167
As a Zerg I feel like the larvae spawn rate increase is a bit too much in the mid-late game, it'll probably be tweaked. The rest of the changes don't really impact anything. I don't understand why they made the upgrades cheaper though.

>>2436214
I think the point was to allow for more +1/+2 armor timing attacks with roaches in particular and to make the upgrades more consistent. Bio, protos armor and weapons and zerg melee and ranged were all that price, only zerg armor was more expensive. Of course the idea behind that was probably because it impacts "more" units than Terran (which needs separate armor for vehicles) and Protoss (which need shield upgrades too) but still.

>>2436131
Against Terran I've tried 8 pool and they already walled fully before your lings can arrive. It only ever works against CC first. I did manage to deny a CC in the natural'z wall, but your economy is so SHIT with an 8 pool that I was still behind even after having them cancel a CC that was 60% done (tbf they also got a gold base, pro tip for zergs, blacklist the new map called Rorschach, terran gets a free gold base)

Against toss, nexus first is so incredibly rare, and toss always scouts, so 8 pools are horrible against them.

Against zerg I've seen 12 pools working decently well. 6 lings and then expand. I fucked up defending it because I didnt commit enough by skipping spines and got flooded but its not hard to survive it.

My conclusion is that early pool is pretty dead rn

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I've played like 10 games and not a single one of them was vs protoss. We're so fucking back bros

The amount of seethe over the starting worker reduction shows how many people never played WoL lmao

>>2435902
they did, valks are busted as shit now

>>2436357
the reddit seems so mald, the community is so small but if its like any other game reddit its probably all mongoloid players

>>2436451
i want to congratulate reddit on managing to create a worse shithole of morons than the old battle.net forums. it wasn't easy, but you did it.

>>2436457
oh man i forgot that place exited, it was bad for WoW i wonder how bad it is for starcraft lol

>>2435939
The nightmare mods are kinda ass. They are designed as Youtube content first, actually fun to play second. The WoL one is alright, but HotS is an unbelievable waste of time. The LotV one was so unbeatable for anybody other than the fat speedrun abuser guy, that the dev had to drop a patch almost immediately so that people would actually play it.
The dev doesn't actually understand how the game works, his stated goals include buffing stuff that doesn't get used a lot in the base game and nerfing stuff that does (which is unnecessary to nerf 9/10 times), but half the time he does the exact opposite. Or the so called buff to something is meaningless or only applies in excessively specific scenarios.