Plushy edition.You'll need it, because Swedish vacation after next patch.>https://steamcommunity.com/games/281990/announcements/detail/689761349249532450
>>2437816they should make this as a sex toy
>>2437849no flared base, it aint comin out.
Is the game playable yet?
>>2437872Wait month. Dlc launch was quite rough
>>24378721 more DLC bro, I swear, one more and it's good, this time for sure, I promise!
are they just going to keep releasing DLCs for this game for another 10 years?holy fuck make a new game already you cheapskates
>>2437872Not really. They caused a shit ton of new bugs and balance issues after the recent patch and dlc. They added the ability to join ongoing wars, but its just as fucked as vassalage was when they reworked it. The ai will join wars constantly no matter how little sense it makes or how hard they are going to lose if they do, and even vassals can join and drag their overlord into the war. Nomads are also in a weird spot were some things are just not very fun to play with, but other things are utterly broken and op to the point were they can break the game.
>>2437920What would Next dlc even be? Spieces pack. Then what?
>>2438208I for one can't wait for the indian species pack.
>>2438229Saar please do not mine the deposit please!
>>2438257>juggernaut event appears and the whole empire stands in front of it.
>>2438305>enemy claims your system>Saar, do not redeem!>meets fallen empire for first time>we will be super power in ten years, SaarI would pay for this.
>>2437872If you resist getting the Plushy DLC it's mostly working.got a CTD on a Payback run I started last patchfix in beta only now>Fixed issues with Payback and Broken Shackles district specializations.
>>2438208It's apparently a soft power/religion dlc plus some nothingburger "scenario packs" that don't affect the main game in the slightest.
>>2438493Galactic Contender rework deffinetly then. Right now Guardian of galaxy doesn't allow imperium. Faction rework tied to soft power maybe?
>Start new game on captain for some chill nomad play>Other nomad empire kills 2 science ships within 5 years.>Ok fuck you then buddy, go to raid em and take his arkship, he has 3 arkships and multiple waystations, its not even year 20tl;dr now I have 2 science arkships doin stuff after I purged that hivemind retard's people. 2 science ships for 2 science arkships seems like a fair trade.
>>2438600How the fuck do they get so many fucking alloys so early in the game that they have maxed out waystations and multiple arkships so early in the fucking game?I'm not even playing on Grand Admiral.
Anyone know what the "abuses of trust" diplomatic modifier means?
>>2438690They get a free arkship as soon as they research the tech to build them.
>>2438690They cheat. It is quite simple.
>>2438714>>2438743What the fuck man...
The nomad ai is even worse than the settled one. If they didn't cheat they would just die within the first 10 years. Not even the modifiers from GA are enough to stop them from entering death spirals. Most of the time they aren't even collecting their resources properly.
>>2438782At least the AI's arkships are built out better than the player's on automate. The game just builds habitat districts over and over and refuses to do anything else regardless of designation. Meanwhile they actually *GASP* build things for the population to do when the AI uses them.
Why is vidya AI still dogshit?
>>2439225In the case of stellaris it is on purpose. Also a lot of games (shooters usually) have had decent "ai" which is way more useful than any of the AIslop forced on us by cultists these days.
>>2439225Takes effort to program properly and idiots buy it anyway so why bother?
>>2439247I don't think stellaris could RUN with decent AI. Game already likes to bog down depending on map settings.
>>2438705>Anyone know what the "abuses of trust" diplomatic modifier means?Spying on allies
>>2439268>Spying on alliesDays without anti-Semitism on /vst/: 0
>>2439254Starnet used to make it is significantly better and it still ran fine. Paradox devs are just incompetent.>I don't think stellaris could RUN with decent AISome AI improvement would actually make the game run better. Stellaris Ai tends to do completely pointless shit like building district A,then immediately replacing it with district B ,then with A again and so forth. These loops that can laste decades. Which not only wastes resources ,makes their planets far worse since nothing is actually being done, but it also makes the game run worse.
>>2439280nowadays it doesn't even do that it just builds habitats on arkships and city districts on colonies over and over regardless of designations
>>2439278He said spying on allies, not Armageddon bombardment of allies
haven't played in years. What mods do I need the make the game not complete dogshit
>khan can hire a military enclave fleet from across the map>fleet beeline for your arksWelp there goes featherbell's investment
>>2440129strap-on sex celebrationextended female domination civ originsissy hypno arkshipanime waifu model pack 4.1more will be updating with the patches coming out soon though
Distant Worlds 2 thoughts?
Hello frens, newb here. Stellaris is 70% off right now and I thought about getting it. Do I need to watch a 3h tutorial before I can play? The only other Pdx game I've played a lot in is CK3.
>>2440270what part of>STELLARIS Generalis unclear to you?
>>2440370>Do I need to watch a 3h tutorial before I can play?pretty much, yeahI checked out a couple of Beginners Tip vids first, very needed!Also MINIMUM, get the Anniversary Ed. and Federation DLC.
>>2440383>Beginners Tip vidsalso make sure it's for Version 4.xit's almost a different game before>>2440370>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqLtpGi4y-8Montu is a good starting point
>>2440370Do not give these niggers any money.
>>2440370Montu's guides are good but Stellaris is a dead simple game to actually play, a lot of the learning curve comes not from being successful with the basic mechanics but avoiding bugged interactions that ruin a campaign or avoiding getting bogged down with badly designed bloat that sucks the fun out. The reason there are so many learning materials out there is that there are so many ways to completely break the game and optimize all the fun out, which is itself kind of a game.Basically all you need to do is>explore and survey to find planets to colonize>colonize ~3 planets>click on things that boost population growth because population does everything>most resources just pay for upkeep and you only need enough to break even>alloys, unity and research are the only resources that really matter and your 'economy' is basically just maximizing the number of pops producing these 3 while meeting basic upkeep requirements>if you greed research too hard and don't built enough of a navy by midgame, void worms kill youThe AI is extremely passive so 90% of your wars will be wars of choice and you can only really fail if you get voidworm'd or if you reach the endgame crisis too weak to fight it. This is a sandbox space roleplaying game moreso than a 4X wargame.
>>2440442Biggest issue I had was realizing the upkeep suggestions are lies and the orange icons showing you can upgrade or build buildings are mostly to be ignored in 4.3 after the pop changes. Also bumrushing exploration tech will save sanity and always have max science guys out there doin shit until there is nothing left to scan.
>>2440390>Montu is a good starting pointNo, he's not. The man is a dedicated shill and even worse a complete moron.
>>2440712I love how people are just a-ok with him and the 3po guy having members only vids and shit right in the feed like that. Fuck those niggers.
>>2439280Starnet made it better by forcing the AI to use specific build orders IIRC, paradox could do that easily they just don't give a fuck
>>2440737>paradox could do that easily they just don't give a fuckWhy would they? They don't care about the singleplayer audience even though those are the people keeping their lights on.
>>2440747That is their entire audience though. There is no way most people are playing stellaris or ck3 for example multiplayer. That is shit for twitch streams.
>>2440753>That is their entire audience though. There is no way most people are playing stellaris or ck3 for example multiplayer. That is shit for twitch streams.Yes but the twitch streamers (and their own office LANs) is who they actually care about.
>>2440761Ok valid in that case. I was just confused by this mythical multiplayer audience.
Why wouldn't I just raid pop as nomad?
>>2440833You want those nasty faggots in YOUR empire, BREATHING YOUR AIR?Your choice I guess. I personally won't allow anyone but my species in my empire.
>>2440390A lot of his tier list are complete shit even when they are still up to date.
>>2440859Him and the other one did some decent weapon and fleet testing at least. Still can't believe anyone accepts the whole "members only video" thing its so fucking gross.
>>2440442>>2440417>>2440390>>2440383Thanks all. I just bought it, now I guess I'll have to schedule a tutorial viewing session lol.
>>2440893return it and get the gog version
>>2440733>>2440859Yeah, that too. Click-baity sponsored garbage all-round.>>2440833Opportunity cost. You're giving up either a civic or an ascension perk for pops you can't utilize fully without going synth or necrophage. There's no end-game need for endless pops with rings, arcs or lathe either. Plus people you're warring against are people not paying you tribute, letting you siphon in peace and or holding your or your vassal MC buildings. I'll say if you want to throatsing larp and can make use of military contracts to bypass lack of convenient CB it can work with say thermophile cattle now that arkship pop hab got uncucked.
>>2440902Maybe you could use that one species thing that lets you breed with everyone and make them part of your species? Never used it myself just read the tooltips over. That would be the only way really for it to be useful at scale I'd think.
>>2440910Xeno Compatibility? Not my thing but I'm interesting in hearing back from you if you want to give it a try.
>>2440916As I said here >>2440854 I'm not about that life, just was a suggestion to make raiding worthwhile since the pops are going to be mass hordes of garbage.Personally one of the first things I do is ensure other species have as little chance to migrate as possible. I don't even want the popup windows. No, sorry geico lizards, I don't want you in my cities.Would be kinda funny though to have a Captain T Kirk species that lives to fuck.
>>2440920Can't really blame you since I don't enjoy the idea of tardwrangling a gorillion different pops and subpop types either. More so when the internal migration for arkships seems to be bugged in addition to how regular internal migration barely does its job as is. Main reason why I still prefer biosynth over anything else, not that it's necessarily stronger. It's just so... neat. And when you turn zombies and regular droids into synths you don't really need to raid for pops rounding back to why would I spend a civic or an ascension perk for nihilistic. Again, honorable mention to especially thermophile cattle since you get a lot of alloys and living metal from them for basically nothing.
lithoid bioships when
>>2441155Only a few dlc and bad reworks away.
>>2441155They couldn't even bother to give different types of arkships beyond the 3 designations because "OH THEY CHANGE ON UPGRADE SO WE'D HAVE TO DO *SO MANY MODELS* YOU GUYS"Hey paradox, you're charging 25usd for JUST the nomad shit. Make the fucking models. Also, no one needed them to change in appearance on upgrade.
so now that the dust has settled, was nomads good?
>>2441999Not really.
>>2441999Another DLC I won't even bother pirating.
>>2441999They will make it good a month before the next dlc which will ruin the game again
>>2442006It really has that cosmic storms actively making the game worse vibe going for it
>>2441999Yep, best way for me to play stellaris now. Would I pay 25 for it? FUCK no.
Is the Age of Indomitus mod any good?
>>2441999I saw ISP was paid to play it and therefore said it's the best thing everIt didn't look fundamentally different. The only interesting thing is that it might make the galaxy less kill-or-be-killed and give more room for empires to exist because one of them can't paint the map.The eventslop just looked about as bad as usual.
My arkship readiness situation is bugged. I have surveyed the targeted system and it is completely discovered, I have no first contacts availabe in my situation log. Am I doing something wrong or it just fucked? Is there a way to use console commands to fix? I have a patch tool that will convert my save off of ironman but I don't want to use it if I don't need it.
>>2441999Yes>>2442090You get all DLC with a subscription which is $10.
>>2442530You get to not be called one dumb bitch for $0.
>>2442090>25 is too much for youlmao ok Rahul
>>2442530>>2442567kek
Noob question: should you always build the biggest hull type available? Or do larger ships actually need to be supported?
>>2442938It depends.But if you have enough modifiers to boost accuracy and/or tracking, then IMO smaller ships literally become pointless.
>>2442938I'd suggest monofleets of one description or another with loadout tailored on what you're fighting against under most circumstances. But end of the day tech and modifier stacking is what's really important.
>>2439225casuals don't even notice anything and are just busy reading flavor/clicking random things, and drop the game after 50 hours
>>2439225In Stellaris' case, features and balance gets changed so often that there's pretty much no time (and motivation) for the devs to make functional AI opponents.So many patches with baffling AI-managed planets...
so whats the proper fun nomad buildsI like to kill xenos
>>2443405load up on the strike craft bonuses, immediately replace the docking bay with a strike craft bay when you load in.Make carrier cruiser/battleships as backup. Build strongholds and fill with people.Kite your arkship around and kill shit twice your strength.
>>2443405>>2443577kite meaning you can manually move arkships in combat, so move them.I feel like this needs its own mention since it really lets you do some fun stuff.
>>2443579>>2443577god stellaris has so much fucking bloat
>>2443577>>2443579>kite aroundSo it's actually a game now? Neat.
>Sky Dragons are considered artificial ships by Beastmaster civicI hate Paradox so fucking much.
>>2443738Arkships you can directly control when they engage and break off by right clicking the map to move them around like normal. This lets you do things like use the aforementioned strike craft bonuses that arkship nomads can get like flight schools civic and keep your arkship at range as the strikecraft regenerate and pick things apart.There are tons of sublight speed bonuses, one of which is part of a government role bonus, so if you put even a little effort in you can outrun most ships.Combo this with a distraction fleet that can jump in first and you can do a lot of shit that you couldn't otherwise.Downside of this is your arkship CAN be one shot killed by events and leviathans and the like. They'll USUALLY jump away emergency ftl style but they also just might not. And that is a big fucking loss since they are your planets.
how do I into kotg on the 4.5 beta?
I wanted to make a robit nomad empire but they don't have an equivalent to flight schools :(Megacorps don't either. Real bummer.You'd think robits would have a "combat drone mechanic line" or some shit and megacorps a "private navy" one. There are similar but nothing for strike craft.
>>2437816last 4.4.5 patch dropped, grab it while you can and play it for quite a whileAs next patch>https://steamcommunity.com/games/281990/announcements/detail/689761349249537447will COMPLETELY fuck up EVERYTHING again
>>2443751and this shit is OLD toolooks like they just cannot fix it
Just had a random thought and ended up finding out they really missed an opportunity to give aquatics a cool megastructure-tier project.
>>2445773>Operational Reserves now track Energy and Minerals 1:1 (previously 3:1).>Maximum Operational Reserves now scale with the number and tier of owned Arkships (base 15,000, plus 5,000 / 7,500 / 10,000 per Tier I / II / III Arkship) instead of a fixed cap.Did they just totally ruin arkships?
>>2445832>Arkship District Specializations that increase weapon damage (Laser Capacitors, Flight Decks, Ammunition Lines, or Missile Silos) now also add +0.15 strategic resource upkeep to Soldiers.Yes they did, flight decks for example already cost alloys for upkeep.
>>2445830>that much extra massWell ring worlds wouldn't work either so I guess this could still be safe.>>2445834>ruinedIt was completely broken before and still needs to be nerfed.
>>2445830Wouldn't the radius of a 1g water world technically be like half that once you account for all the freaky high-pressure ice phases that would make up the core?
>>2445946>nerfed.Yes I agree the upkeep for them should be lowered.
>>2445950Yeah probably. Thankfully there's plenty of wiggle room in Stellaris.
>>2445832Reserves start in the same state as they were before (effective cap at 20k minerals+energy), but now you can actually increase the cap so you can actually build and hold reserves (and not waste half the resources from a Planetary Reprocessor use) in the late game instead of having the situation yoyo between stages every month.
>>2446120Was more talking about the 3:1 to 1:1
>>2445946>still needs to be nerfedAnd then some.
>>2446281>t. got his shit pushed in by nomads
>>244627260k max reserves with each unit of minerals or energy being worth 3 reserve units is functionally identical to 20k max reserves with each unit of minerals or energy being worth one reserve unit.That *3 multiplier was just a pointless layer of obfuscation.
>>2446284Maybe they should test this shit before they release 25 dollar DLCs.
>>2446285Sorry, best we can do is a half broken update into a six month summer vacation.
>>2446283I wish. The AI sucks at playing them almost as much as you apparently do.
>>2446287Based vacation appreciators. I can't blame em tbqh>>2446289They are pretty easy just like normal stellaris, only "difficulty" comes from pumping the ai or challenge up but even then its just numbers. You're more likely to be screwed over by a random event from DLC than the AI kek
>>2446285>he paid for this
>2446300>ranjesh trying to troll still despite no one saying anything about buying anything
>>2446283No the AI can't play them at all let alone min max. But allowing one type of empire to get modifiers x10 as high as anything else just means that nobody play tested this shit.
>>2446317I don't think anything has been playtested since the early days at this point.The AI can't really "play" any empire without cheating though. Especially if you try to use the automation for building a planet or even worse an arkship.Mentioned it before but if you automate an arkship they will just build habitation over and over without any other buildings. Which would be cool... you know if they built a single factory or research facility or anything.
>soldiers on military arkship now require exotic gasses out the gate with flight decksso stupid
>>2446412>le 500% efficiency bonus requires... le upkeep?!?
Science ships evading and then autoexploring is a nice change.>>2446522STARTING OUT its not even 25%, its 0. what are you talking about.It shouldn't come with a base cost of exotics. You don't know what you're talking about and should play the game.
>>2446412Nomads already get showered in rare resources so it's not like it will make a difference
>>2446593Indeed but make it an upgrade that costs that, not the base. Its bad design. (just like a lot of the rare resource usage is)If you're playing right none of it is a problem but that isn't really the point.For all the talk of arkships one thing people should know is its a fuckin colony and it can be just one shot by shit and it will lose a lot of fights it should win by power and equipment if you just let them bumrush a fight instead of manually moving it around.Can you make them uber powerful? Yeah, you can also purposefully pick every bad everything and still build a massive fleet and steamroll people too.
I hate all the micro you need to do for ships
>>2446317>nobody play tested this shithear hearstarted a vanilla Toxic God run and my fucking Philosopher King had the same level as everybody elseI shudder at them>>2445773>Pop groups are no longer divided by Ethics or Factions, instead each pop group will have a given percentage that belongs to each faction or ethic as appropriate. fucking around with pops on such a fundamental level
>doin a cybernetics>someone leaks my fleet's military data after an argument on a vidya gamekek based needed to improve the fleet anyhow
Are these DLCs enough to enjoy Stellaris? Most of what i don't have are species packs. I kinda want The Machine Age though, Biogenesis looks interesting as well.
Where's that guy that calls everyone names for buying shit? kek
probably a poorfag coping announcing how cool they are for not buying stuff
>seething like this>and completely unprovoked tooGrim
I had that shitty macrophage event where it corrupts a bunch of pops and it ruined a whole arkship. ...So I put them all on an arkship just for them and settled them on a nice little planet in an isolated sector and now they are my vassal. So far I haven't had any new ones spawn in but this should be "ok" right? Not going to suddenly get a new ship struck with this years later?
>>2446742very soundthe problem with Machine Age, Biogenesis and Shroud, they upgrade the ascension path to "the final form".So when you get one, you also have to get the other two.Or just say fuckit and get the one for the path you like most.
>>2446921I don't really like the new shroud. Admittedly I never liked the shroud, but I like the new shroud even less.
>>2446921sweet, thanks
>>2446944Same, I like the psionics but I don't like the shroud stuff. I like it in concept.
Legit question here: Is it bad to have your empire producing more robots than people? Is there a real chance of a robot uprising or something?
>>2446987There is a possibility for robot uprisings, but the conditions are pretty specific.You need to have the technology for robot leaders, but also to be actively enslaving robots.Either not researching that one tech or giving robots citizen rights will prevent a revolt from ever happening.
>>2446997Everybody is chillin with abundance but figured I'd ask. Yeah outright enslaving actual sentient robits seems like asking for it kek
You'd think xenomorph army would be a risky tech.
>>2446987Not really and that's coming from a few dozen runs with clone soldiers. Habitability is easier than ever to buff and psionic, bio and slavery in general have powercrept it so it's less impressive than it once was but more pops is more pops. Convenient way to keep worker jobs occupied or have something to chuck in the lathe and no one caring too. Specialist synths aren't really worth it unless you want to go full /clang/ yourself.
>>2446965well you may like it or not, it gives hard bonuses on the hand you don't have without itjust like the other two, though a bit less I guess.
>>2446997robots do not deserve rights...
kek some of these 4.5 beta notes>Unlocked Knights of the Toxic God for nomads
So if you can kill an awakened empire should you just declare war on them before they do anything?I'm pretty sure I could just skullfuck them right now.
nevermind they magick'd another 1m power fleet out of nowhere
>>2447095For which crisis?
>>2447095Why? Because of the movie? You make them yourself instead of finding them so there is no reason they would have the ability to reproduce or lay eggs or any of the shit from the movie that would make them a long term risk. And if you can make them in a lab you would also know how to counter them even if they did.
Which version is the console edition running on? I'm thinking about trying to rope some normies into this.
>>2447095its shit, just pirate the gog version and hand that out
>>2448199fug, meant for >>2448181
>>2447095Not to nitpick, but I'm positive once you have a tech that can birth entire new apex predator xenomorph species, your tech can manage a biological killswitch, make them infertile, or die of old age within like a week or so.Unless you know [life, uh, finds a way.../spoiler]
>>2447334Yeah pretty much, but be quick because...>>2447335...They have this annoying mechanic since the vanilla where they spawn fleets out of nowhere in their homesystem (or next system if you happen to be of controll of their capital system)
>>2446900>find traces of an advanced civilization's lab complex>find out they were working on the t-virus>die for their hubris as the macrophage turn everyone into malformed mutants>your starsailing dumbass shitflinging ape ass thought you were smarter and inoculated yourself instead of destroying itThe only biofuckery allowed is ascension biofuckery, everything else is bait
>>2449570>life finds a wayIt usually doesn't. That's why so many species have gone extinct. It would also require evolution which can't really happen if they can't reproduce in the first place. >>2449598Ascended bio actually gets the option to fix the macrophage. Just sucks that they can't fix it retroactively.
>>2439280I did create my custom mod for 3.14 out of starnet and other mods.I did make the AI extremely aggressive. Economically speaking and military speaking. I made the au aggressively invade planets, prioritize descending planets id under threat. Avoiding mouse and cat game, invade planets like a rabid dogs, etc. I played on ensign because the AI was too competent. I have to lock again on a specific version and do it again, it will much easier since I also have local LLMs helping me, etc. instead of reverse engineering the shit myself.I guess the AI overhaul was a consequence of making stellaris feel like ww1 but in space, I still miss that feeling tho, so back to modding.While joining wars is broken like hell, narratively speaking is so fucking kino. Small wars can spiral into pure shit shows and for larpers like me it's pure cinema
>>2440737>Starnet made it better by forcing the AI to use specific build orders IIRC, paradox could do that easily they just don't give a fuckThis The game's AI can easily be fixed and empires can absolutely mog on ensign It was done, it can be done again, the Jews at paradox just don't care
>>2440753>multiplayerNever played in my life a multiplayer strategy game and I played a lot of strategy gamesYouTubers are subhumans that don't count
>>2449930i still play 3.14, post it
>I played on ensign because the AI was too competent
>>2449933I moved to Linux from windows and Iost my older custom mods because I couldn't be assed to save them.>>2449934Modded ensign anon, modded, not vanilla ofc that's too easy even for normgroids
>>2449941I smell bullshit. And for once it's not coming from paradox lol!
>>2449944You literally open the define file, then the economic plans file and a couple more and change numbers and sometimes tweak the plans a bit, maybe replace them entirely.It's not bullshit, you tell the ai to play the same way it would play as you do. You change the weights so some decisions are weighted higher and some lower.Paradox fucked up by making micro a thing.If there's one thing I've learned from them is to avoid micro and instead introduce abstractions, way easier for the AIs to handle and also for the overall game's health.Since paradox can't make or anyone really, good space games I have to make my own sooner or later, but it helps getting an idea of what works and doesn't when modding games
>>2449953Since it's so easy to change with couple of text edits from braindead to capable of mimicking a real bean I'm sure you'll do literally everyone here a solid favor and post your mod. I mean it's not like you're talking out of your ass or anything lmao.
Not realizing you can't use cloning vats and robot assemblies at the same time award
>>2449979Are you retarded you fucking imbecile? The old one got deleted. You brainlet retard. I have to create a brand new one from scratch for the current version, it will be easier however since I know what to do and no, I won't post shit on this shit site.I don't trust you trannies, and since you like to feel like superior faggots just call me a brown and call it a day. You won't get shit from me, mod it yourselves.And I didn't claim it's easy, it's easy once you know what to do, in the beginning is a fucking nightmare obviously, subhuman faggots putting woeds in my mouth I didn't say. And no, I won't post shit, fuck you all
>>2450100You know what? You're right. I'm sorry for being rude. The reason I'm asking is because I'd like such a mod and there don't appear to be any that are publicly available, so I was hoping maybe you could share yours. Let's help each other in this community.
>>2450050Anon...but you can do that. When is the last time you actually played the game?
>>2450228Only thing you'll get from that cunt is more bullshit and another meltie.
>>2438229they already made toxoids
Please help anons, why am I not getting trade from commercial pacts on some months?
If an starting empire invaded a planet like Earth (not Earth, I don't think we'd unify ID4 style), would the primitives be able to fend them off? With anti-ballistic and satellite missiles they have to have some modicum of anti-orbit defense right?
>>2450695primitives with similar technology as we do today could probably fend off a starting empire, so long as they touched down and didnt have the wild idea of orbitally inserting a killsquad around the presidents house or something and didnt use orbital bombardment, for which there is no real defense