https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDUSn3oWUn4

File: HNLsF67aIAAajjY.jpg (1.42 MB, 2500x3328)

1.42 MB JPG

>>114309647
Out of curiosity, in a company like cover, what would be the minimum activity required for a talent to get paid? Or there's a flat salary they get monthly? If the case it's the latter it would obviously entice talents to do less (and ask less, as in company loans for projects) to get a net positive in being inside the company, which doesn't make fucking sense.

File: not-all-heroes-177a8354eb.jpg (199 KB, 600x449)

199 KB JPG

https://litter.catbox.moe/zjnujn.mp4
https://litter.catbox.moe/zjnujn.mp4

>>114310369
thanks

Holokeks will defend this.

>>114310504
Nothing to defend and we know it long time ago

>>114310318
They have a minimum payout, performing worse gets them bumped up to the base salary. For company loans, they usually settle on paying the amount to cover standard living expenses while paying off the loan with the rest.

>-69,420
this guy a boomer?

>>114310318
Well they're contracters, so they don't get a salary, but they(, at least used, to it was mentioned like 5-6 years ago,) do get a small amount monthly pay for free, which was implemented since their main income, especially for new girls was through youtube and they had to wait to get monetized first when they were small or in case of demonitzation.

Even without that I think they just get paid monthly anyway, since youtube ad-rev is not going to be 0, because people might listen to music or just watching through the archives.

>>114310318
Multiple talents has already told that there is a set amount of salary they get on top of other payouts like merch, concert, superchats, etc... Them being a retard about how to manage their financial resources doesn't mean they are being held captive to pay their debt to le black company like what fags here keeps pushing otherwise there'll be a lot of implosion happening like other companies did.

>>114310504
Defend what? The fact you need to pay people for work you commission them for?

>>114310757
The "independent contractor" thing is total bullshit, and is 100% being abused by these vtuber companies.
The reason they do it is so they don't have to pay medical benefits and workers comp, and such. But at the same time, they want a degree of control over their talents that it becomes unreasonable.

For example, it would be like if you hired a plumber to do a job. But then you said "you can't work any other jobs except this one, and you have to work 'x' hours per week, and I get to own everything you produce in the meantime including that painting you did in the garage in your spare time."

At this point they're not "contractors" they're just employees, and you're using this as a cheeky loophole to get around paying them their proper benefits.
An independent contractor can work for whoever they want, whenever they want, for as much time as they want, and you have no right to tell them otherwise. The only thing keeping them honest is their reputation.

>>114309647
This doesn't take their other sources of revenue into account.
Do you really think they would knowingly go into debt? She said she'd be fine, because when you take the other sources of revenue then she's plus.

>>114310811
More likely she just dips into savings for a month, then tops it back up next month.
>>114310805
I mean it really depends on the company? We know Cover doesn't demand things like exclusivity or a regular stream schedule, or at least didn't do so in the past. Many hololive vtubers are still active on their PLs or show up only when they feel like it.

>take a zero interest loan for something from your company
>they then deduct the money from you again
woah

>>114310805
>"you can't work any other jobs except this one, and you have to work 'x' hours per week, and I get to own everything you produce in the meantime including that painting you did in the garage in your spare time."
How does anything of that apply to hololive. At most they are not allowed to have a contract with another Vtuber company. Also that whole work x hours a week is laughable, when some members just vanish for a couple of months.

>>114310805
Cover literally has bi yearly health checkups? They could literally not do that and prevent the talents to not do shit for long extended period yet they don't because somehow taking care of basic employee needs isn't foreign to them unlike in /vt/ where everyone seem to be in a sort of underground slave company that does not care for its workers.
>where proof??
I aint giving you shit, go search for yourself. most members mentioned it already like Mio, Aki, Chammers, and Lui as I remembered.
>Nice larp
watch streams.

>>114310805
You sure talk about this with a lot of confidence when you don't know anything. Cover provides Japanese health insurance to all of their talents. They're contracted to do work as a VTuber, and any work done as that VTuber is owned by Cover, who owns the IP. There are actually a lot of benefits to being a corpo VTuber despite the often cited negatives, but I know explaining them to a catalogfag won't do anything because you'll still spam this same thread for as long as Hololive exists because you're mindbroken by them.

>>114310875
if they actually mentioned it you would've posted a link

>>114310912
>Spoon fed me because I can't do anything without help of gpt.
You would know they mentioned it if you watch streams.

>>114310869
Because they spend their own money to produce original songs and MV's and such, then the company simply claims ownership over them. This was a big deal when the Selen thing happened, because the corporation was insisting she had no right to post the MV, when the song and video were totally paid for by her.

And by the way, that's supposed to be her independent youtube channel (she is an independent contractor after all) so why do they get to decide what she's allowed to upload there? The degree of control the company is asserting doesn't make sense for an independent contractor. Even actors who are hired as independent contractors retain a lot of rights over how to express their character and such.

>>114310894
>Cover provides Japanese health insurance to all of their talents.
Doesn't matter. If you hire someone in America, you have to conform to the laws of America. Do you really think some sweatshop is allowed to hire Americans at 25 cents an hour? lmao doesn't work like that. You abide by the local employment laws where they reside.

>any work done as that VTuber is owned by Cover, who owns the IP
Are they employees or not? Get it straight. If you own every single thing they produce, they are not an independent contractor are they?

>>114310933
>fed
ESL Seamonkey

No matter how much money you give women, they will find a way to spend it all and more

>>114310933
here's your english lesson of the day, monkey
"without the help of" sounds more natural

>>114310982
>Expecting formal and carefully articulated grammar on internet.

You're more retarded than a glue sucking disabled tranny in a park.

>>114310504
You take out a loan. You pay it back.

>>114311006
nice post monkey, was it made with the help of chatgpt or with help of chatgpt

>>114310318
They have passive youtube income from vods and membership + merch cuts so they always have income but I'd they take a company loan against earnings for tax purposes that will eat up all the earnings.

>>114311028
that's on me, you picking up a broken English is a good segway to move the goalpost of you being a catalogfag and not watching streams.

>demand sololive
>not signed up to a record label that does the heavy lifting
hope you bought that concert merch irystocucks

>2 retards arguing on who's the biggest retard among themselves.

This is why /vt/ should be nuked.

>>114310953
>Doesn't matter
It does because the talents have to spend a good amount of time in Japan each year and the costs are far cheaper than the USA. Let's not pretend that the ones residing in Indonesia would rather have Cover pay them to receive treatment in a SEA clinic than in Japan. That's health insurance as a benefit and you can't refute that.
>Do you really think some sweatshop is allowed to hire Americans at 25 cents an hour? lmao doesn't work like that. You abide by the local employment laws where they reside.
Ignoring your hyperbolic example, clearly showing no intention for honest discussion-- they're foreign workers, working under a Japanese company. They have to follow basic labor laws but in respects to the benefits you mentioned then Cover doesn't have to pay for them whatsoever for a good portion of the talents, because most of them don't work over 30 hours a week. If you really want to get into it, then the fact that Cover doesn't have 50 people working for them in the US(full time, 40+hours/week required), or even outside of Japan. They don't need to provide any benefits based on US federal laws.
>Are they employees or not? Get it straight. If you own every single thing they produce, they are not an independent contractor are they?
Even a standard employee doesn't own what they produce in most companies. It's patently obvious you haven't worked much, or haven't read your contract if you actually have a job.

>>114311052
>segway
lol

>>114309647
Sololive profits?

>>114309647
>first time in a while being in the negatives
holy sister.

>>114310953
The youtube channel is property of the company you moron, since day one and so is the character ip. That's why they get to decide what goes on there.

One thing with Selen was that she got permission to post it and then quickly they turned around and said no for an unknown reason. Also different company, so whatever.

>join idol company to be an idol
>you have to paid for everything to be an idol bc the idol company you joined doesn't think being an idol is "profitable"

>>114311157
>That's health insurance as a benefit and you can't refute that.
Well Niji has had problems with EN talents going deep into debt because the company doesn't cover health insurance which is *legally required* in America. They use this "independent contractor" thing to get around it. They are just using this like a magic tool to get around any inconvenient employment laws, this is clearly an abuse.

>most of them don't work over 30 hours a week
And the ones that do? Look you seem to think the law is like this pass-and-go type thing, these are legal requirements.
>They don't need to provide any benefits based on US federal laws.
Yet they're allowed to
-- suspend people without pay for months.
Niji suspended Twisty without pay for 8 months after encouraging her to take out massive debt for her debut. They did this as a form of "punishment", not allowing her to leave the contract so she can't make any money. She wasn't getting a minimum wage during that time (illegal).
-- take control of their social media
This famously happened when Selen was sick in the hospital and was unable to tell her friends about it, because Niji managers hijacked her social media accounts to say "nothing is amiss!" This is totally illegal, once again.
-- assume ownership of certain fanarts on social media
Oftentimes they say that any fanart posted under certain tags belongs to them by default. This means if you posted a picture of Optimus Prime standing next Ina, then Cover owns that picture of Optimus Prime, apparently. This became an issue when the Niji talent WIlson blatantly stole his mascot design from a twitter user, and the company told the user they owned the rights to it now simply because it was posted under certain twitter hashtags.

These companies are totally abusing western laws, and the only reason they get away with it is because nobody's taken them to task with a real lawsuit.
Cover has less abuses simply because the talents make way more money, but that doesn't mean what they're doing is legal

File: Ff4RRWfXEAEG7lh.jpg (108 KB, 1200x1178)

108 KB JPG

>>114311282
>-- suspend people without pay for months.
>Niji suspended Twisty without pay for 8 months after encouraging her to take out massive debt for her debut. They did this as a form of "punishment", not allowing her to leave the contract so she can't make any money. She wasn't getting a minimum wage during that time (illegal).
>-- take control of their social media
>This famously happened when Selen was sick in the hospital and was unable to tell her friends about it, because Niji managers hijacked her social media accounts to say "nothing is amiss!" This is totally illegal, once again.

>>114311242
>The youtube channel is property of the company you moron
So they're employees then. You admitted it.

>One thing with Selen was that she got permission to post it and then quickly they turned around and said no for an unknown reason.
But why does the company have this level of control over the talent, if they're not an employee? They should be an employee for any of this to make sense.

>>114311242
>One thing with Selen was that she got permission to post it
no she didn't lmao.

>>114311318
>So they're employees then. You admitted it.
??? Where is the corellation?

>>114311340
Independent contractor is usually for short term jobs. Like a month, 2 months. That's usually how it goes in Hollywood.

You're hiring them for 5-10 YEARS. Now you're asserting they're like actors just fufilling a role. In that case, the long contract makes no sense for an independent contractor. It should be that the talent owns the channel, and the company just plays a part in promoting them.

>>114311282
>Look you seem to think the law is like this pass-and-go type thing, these are legal requirements.
No, as someone that actually works in the US I know that I didn't receive most benefits, chiefly healthcare from any of my workplaces unless I was considered a full-time employee. I'm just telling you the requirements listed from the ACA for employers. Cover is not required to pay for health care for any of their US talents following the law, but they do offer them full coverage in Japan.
>Yet they're allowed to
>2 cases of anycolor's actions
That's on anycolor
>-- assume ownership of certain fanarts on social media
That's pretty standard for almost any multimedia company. Nintendo is one of the worst offenders, but Cover is generally pretty lax about enforcing it unless the art is being used to harass one of their talents(I remember Aqua fanarts made by chinese fans that were used to attack Coco with semi-transparent background text that were removed from pixiv in short order).
>more niji issues
Again, not Hololive.
>These companies are totally abusing western laws
Cover isn't abusing any law or doing anything illegal as I already stated. You could maybe make that case for niji breaking western employment laws from what you listed, but the reality for that IP complaint you made is western companies do far worse than that. Disney would rape you in US court for using any of their characters if you gained enough popularity to draw their attention, and they wouldn't care about winning, just making sure you suffered generational debt.

>>114311333
Go away Millie

>>114310828
Pretty sure they all ban them from being vtubers on their PLs

>>114311365
>That's pretty standard for almost any multimedia company.
It is an abuse of the law. I don't care if other asian companies are also abusing the law.
>Cover is generally pretty lax about enforcing it
Enforcing something illegal that they made up themselves in their own creative-mode minecraft universe? It doesn't matter if they're lax or sparse in enforcing something, it's still violating the law.
It's like saying "I usually don't beat my slaves, so don't give me a hard time about the whole slavery thing". Not how it works.

>Cover isn't abusing any law or doing anything illegal as I already stated.
They 100% are. The whole "independent contractor" thing is a scam. Recently New York cracked down on it too, a bunch of businesses had been classifying employees as "independent contractors" and then treating them exactly as employees.

>Disney would rape you in US court for using any of their characters
To make money maybe. But when a character is all-encompassing in popularity it's generally considered public domain, and you can even profit from it when you do parody. South Park profited of Mickey Mouse, depicting him as a coke-sniffing hooker-fucking bad boss.

>>114310828
>More likely she just dips into savings for a month, then tops it back up next month.
or she just goes deeper in debt like 90% of world population right now

>>114311408
lmao Even children can put up worthwhile arguments .

>>114311363
First of all >in Hollywood. I don't think it's that applicable.
Wasn't the dub voice of Ash a contractor for decades?

Also right know you are arguing against the business model itself, not about their acual status as employee or contractor.

>>114311416
>when the unemployed mf is talking about international laws:

>>114311416
>It is an abuse of the law
It isn't.
>Enforcing something illegal
It's not illegal, it's protecting their IP which is covered by most copyright laws in places that aren't shitholes.
>They 100% are
They aren't, you can't explain why and the only specifics you pointed out(like benefits) I already proved you wrong on.
>But when a character is all-encompassing in popularity it's generally considered public domain
It isn't.
>South Park
Parody, covered by fair use. They don't claim ownership of the character, its likeness, or dare make money off of selling goods of Mickey Mouse.

>>114311508
>It isn't.
carefully avoiding taxes through law loop holes isn't technically abuse of the law either, but it gets you in jail eventually

good god holocucks are something else lol
you can only expect this kind of delusional worship of corporations from a jap salaryman.

>>114309647
Isn't this because of expensive projects that she chose to do? Okayu explained a long time ago, when she was getting her VN made I think, that the company foots the bill for expensive projects upfront and then the talent gradually pays for it by having the value deducted from their paycheck in installments. Which makes sense, obviously the company is gonna have a limited budget for projects and if the talents wants to do a project that exceeds that budget they just have to pay for it themselves.

>>114311538
Legal tax avoidance strategies, do not, in fact, put you in jail. Because they are legal.

>>114311560
this is so strange to put full responsibility on a talent, that's not how investments work
what is the point of mangers then?
let's think of it like from movie company perspective, movie company invests in a movie, gets a director and tells him to loan money from them to make a movie that they want to make returns from

>>114311593
until there is a comma in wrong place

>>114310805
>An independent contractor can work for whoever they want
which is what they do? you can see some holo did basically jack ass while some holo do stuff on their rm

>>114311538
Only if you make enemies out of the wrong group.
Look, I know you think this feels wrong but Cover isn't avoiding anything in regards to providing employee benefits. They have been lacking in talent support and most of that is due to
>holoearth draining resources(mostly management oversight, the monetary loss was far less than expected from most /vt/ posters)
>homos(more management and monetary drain)
>trying to emulate niji(debuting holostars to begin with, trying to force coed interactions, etc.)
>employee bloat
>fucking up work VISAs
These are all things that Cover actually is guilty of. Them telling Holos they need to pay off no interest loans to cover a portion of production's cost, a production that takes dozens of people people 6+ months of work isn't unreasonable.

>>114311638
isn't unreasonable.
it is, if you can't afford to invest in your talent your whole company is not actually functioning
this would murder any other production company

>>114311508
>it's protecting their IP
You can't just willy nilly claim ownership of things you saw on twitter. Like I said, if a fanart has Optimus Prime standing next to Pekora, suddenly you can use Optimus Prime now?

>you can't explain why and the only specifics
The only specifics you need is that it's a subversion of law and a scam. Vtuber companies are not the only ones doing this, they are just the most egregious.

>It isn't.
Yes it is. The Birthday Song was famously copywrited. Eventually a judge told them, they don't get to own it, it's public domain now. Sure nobody can profit off it, but once something is part of the culture it's pretty much fair game.
https://thelegalguide.org/is-happy-birthday-song-copyrighted/

>>114311618
>this is so strange to put full responsibility on a talent
I think it's mostly a way of offloading financial liability. If they succeed, Cover adds value to their brand. If they don't succeed, the talent eats the loss rather than the company.

>>114311707
Pretty smart, cover gets to have their cake and eat it too with only the girls putting themselves on the line for being ambitious.

>>114309647
"when you hit the nice number but not the way you wanted too"

>>114311707
it's called franchising I guess. In a convoluted way it's what it is.

>>114311692
>Like I said, if a fanart has Optimus Prime standing next to Pekora, suddenly you can use Optimus Prime now?
No and I don't think Cover would claim they own Optimus Prime. You're too prone to using these theoreticals instead of specifics because you don't really have an argument. At most they would claim ownership of Pekora's likeness and that's exactly what their guidelines state.
>The only specifics you need is that it's a subversion of law and a scam
You can't even explain how it's a subversion of a law or why it's a scam. You just think it feels wrong but you can't detail why.
>Yes it is. The Birthday Song was famously copywrited. Eventually a judge told them, they don't get to own it, it's public domain now. Sure nobody can profit off it, but once something is part of the culture it's pretty much fair game.
https://thelegalguide.org/is-happy-birthday-song-copyrighted/
And the key phrase being "nobody can profit off it". Cover doesn't forbid people from making fanart using their IP, they forbid commercialization of it or depictions that harm their talents in some form(attacks on reputation, harassment, etc.).
>>114311671
>it is, if you can't afford to invest in your talent your whole company is not actually functioning
They do invest in them though. They give them access to top of the industry production, 3D performances, facilitate collabs with big artists etc. They just made an entire studio to help Suisei because she was growing so large by comparison. The debt that Holos are asked to pay is a return on that investment. That IRyS clip the anon posted she was stating the deductions were happening after months of being in the works, which is her paying back what was the initial investment if the company covered it. This is standard business and you're complaining about it. The world doesn't operate on handouts, investments are given with the expectation that you return it along with turning a profit.
>this would murder any other production company
Haha oh boy you really know nothing of western music companies, they get away with contracts that would make Anycolor's contract writers blush.

>>114311788
second thought, except franchising deals do not take percentage of your income on the regular, do holo girls even make any money with setup like this?

>>114311808
>which is her paying back what was the initial investment if the company covered it.
that would be fine, if the company didn't take the share of their regular income at all times

>>114311808
You should stop responding to shitposting pajeet that gets his info from chatgpt

>>114311825
They don't have to do any projects aside from streaming(and even that's not really enforced). No workplace would ever cover repeated losses and most would fire you for a single fuckup that put them in the red.

>>114311808
>. At most they would claim ownership of Pekora's likeness and that's exactly what their guidelines state.
So do they own the art or not? Can they post it on a t-shirt and sell it, since it's their art? Because that's what these vtuber companies do.

>You can't even explain how it's a subversion of a law or why it's a scam
Yes I can. Because these are really just employees that you're calling "independent contractors" so you don't have to pay them certain benefits. That's why it's a scam. If you look at vtubers, nothing about them is similar to an independent plumber or electrician, or construction firm....etc. which is what the "independent contractor" designation is really for.

>They give them access to top of the industry production, 3D performances, facilitate collabs with big artists etc.
This is just Japan being a neo-fuedalist state who worships fame and corporate brands. Most people outside Japan don't really give a fuck about 3D performances, or "famous artists" or whatever.
>This is standard business
Sure an independent contractor has to pay for their own stuff. Ok that's understood, like a plumber needs to bring their own tools to the job. But when that plumber is working for you for 20 years and you're dictating when, how, and where he can work, that's no longer an independent contractor it's just an employee.

>>114311847
Entertainment companies have losses all the time, I'm pretty sure.

>>114311707
>>114311786
No it's expecting them to put out something that provides a profit. For example, a decent quality MV would take the work of dozens of people for months. Someone has to pay for those people's work, and Holos are almost always the ones requesting these projects. Unfortunately music uploads will almost never turn a profit for online views/listens, that's why album and ticket sales matter more and merch is the king for profitability. So if a song flops, who should be expected to cover the costs? The company can't set a precedent of taking the hit every time or everyone loses when they can't pay anybody and go under.

>>114311847
>No workplace would ever cover repeated losses
yeah, it's their job to green light projects or not. it's the entertainment company. even talent agencies have a say about what actor can work on or not.

File: 1767163620902341.png (133 KB, 1160x638)

133 KB PNG

>>114309647
5k ring btw

>>114311895
I don't think it's as simple as MV ---> profit though. What if that's part of building the brand. Holodori made millions and all that "unprofitable" music was a part of that. How do you measure the value, then?

>>114311901
Mostly in Hollywood the actor is in charge. The actor hires the manager, hires the promotional team. If he doesn't like the manager, he fires him. Managers are not just useless sacks of flesh, they are notoriously extremely ferocious in getting things for their client. Scheduling his flight, calling the hotel 100 times to make sure the room is fine, dealing with complications and problems, getting meals sent over, getting everything all set for the actor. The agent will carefully decide with role the actor will take, and handle the negotiation.

Meanwhile in the vtuber industry
>vtubers are under the manager, and can be fired by the manager at any time
>managers don't do jack shit basically, except approve perms, which is just an autistic japanese thing that doesn't matter in the west.
>The talent has to pay for everything themselves and doesn't get to own any of it either. You're basically spending $20k on a song and then the company snatches it out of your hands "thanks for the $20k!!"
It's like a total upside-down relationship in the vtubing industry.

>>114311870
>So do they own the art or not? Can they post it on a t-shirt and sell it, since it's their art? Because that's what these vtuber companies do.
They own the character's likeness, they wouldn't argue they own the literal art. Since the art is a depiction of their character they have the ability to exercise their IP rights if they choose to do so. Their content guidelines state they'll accept derivative fan works provided they aren't for-profit, but clearly they allow the sale of doujinshi and fan-made merch. Now if a store/shop/sales front, even if owned by an individual, were to continually sell Hololive merch with their own designs, that would most likely get shut down.
>Yes I can. Because these are really just employees that you're calling "independent contractors" so you don't have to pay them certain benefits.
I already stated they give them benefits(Japanese healthcare), despite not being required by US law to provide any of their talents residing in the US benefits. There is no scam, no subversion, no violation of any laws.
>This is just Japan being a neo-fuedalist state who worships fame and corporate brands. Most people outside Japan don't really give a fuck about 3D performances, or "famous artists" or whatever.
The reality is the talents themselves care about putting on these shows, and someone has to foot the bill. As I stated before, if Cover were to cover literally every cost and loss by themselves they would have had to fire a lot of their VTubers, specifically holostars, years ago.
>just an employee
As I also stated, even a normal employee for a typical company would be expected to take the loss for a project if they led it. Usually that means you get fired(downsized) or, like that IRyS clip, have your wages garnished.

I think about Kanata regarding this kind of stuff. She invested so much at her own expense to build that character, and which contributed to the growth of Hololive. At the end of everything, I wonder what she's left with?

>>114311618
>>114311671
>>114311707
>this is so strange to put full responsibility on a talent, that's not how investments work
Cover doesn't do that, though? They fund all company-lead or company-mandated projects. They also provide a small amount of funding every months for talents' personal (optional, obviously) projects. For sololives like IRyS's coming concerts or 3D lives like all those birthday / anniversary lives, the company takes care of everything their staffs do plus the studio - talents don't need to pay for that, and they only need to pay for everything *outside* the company (i.e: hiring Kanauru to make a 3D MV or hiring a choreographer to make new choreography for their songs).
All in all, the projects that the company "put full responsibility on a talent" are extremely rare and in those cases, talents also get most of the profits (i.e: Lamy's wine project initially before Cover took over)
It simply is impossible for Cover to fund every talents' personal (again, optional) projects. If they do and all 70-80+ talents start asking for $300K+ each to make MVs like Marine, it'd have exceeded Cover's quarterly revenue (much less profits). Now that would be what would murder a production company.
(Either that, or they would put a lot more scrutiny on talents' projects because they wouldn't be throwing money away for nothing)

>>114311997
>Japanese healthcare
Japan is a poor backwater country. The average living standard in Japan is barely above poverty-level for the US. This is not sufficient, and more importantly it's not in line with what US law requires.

>There is no scam, no subversion, no violation of any laws.
Yes, I'm telling you right now it's a scam. These are not "independent contractors", they are just employees. You insisting otherwise is just a charade, a sleight of hand.

>the talents themselves care about putting on these shows
And since they paid for the shows themselves, they should own the show. It's that simple. If the corporation wants the show, they should pay for it then.
>if Cover were to cover literally every cost and loss by themselves they would have had to fire a lot of their VTubers
Nice rationalization. If a slave owner had to cover every expense of their slaves, they would have to go out of business. Doesn't make it legal though.

>even a normal employee for a typical company would be expected to take the loss for a project if they led it
A normal employee is like a 1st class citizen compared to the 3rd class citizen that is an "independent contractor". The employee gets benefits, protections, all sorts of goodies that the independent contractor doesn't get.
If you want to have an independent contractor, the tradeoff is, you sacrifice some amount of control.

>>114312072
>The average living standard in Japan is barely above poverty-level for the US.
come on man, that's plain lie

>>114312072
>Japan is a poor backwater country. The average living standard in Japan is barely above poverty-level for the US
What kind of schizo's delusion is this?

>>114311942
That's why I specified online metrics. And most of HoloDori's success is because for years Holo fans wanted a rhythm game for the already popular Hololive songs. Thankfully it's had the effect of giving more attention to lesser-known songs, but even then most songs outside of the ones with 10mil+ views probably aren't recovering even half of the production costs through ad revenue, especially for someone like Marine who is keen on having high quality animations.
>What if that's part of building the brand. Holodori made millions and all that "unprofitable" music was a part of that. How do you measure the value, then?
I agree, it's part of building a brand and value can't strictly be measured in ad revenue or the MV views. Most VTuber music isn't viral but they can easily offset that through having a dedicated core fanbase that superchats, pays for membership, and buys merch. Streaming, making music, doing special streams to build a community that supports you in other ways. In this way you can kind of treat the production of this music effectively as a loss leader. If a song goes viral that's great. But to put it in perspective, even Bibbidiba probably earned less than Suisei's merch and other sales have over its lifetime. And that is for the most popular VTuber song ever. This is of course ignoring that the production for that song also ate up most of any of the money it earned through ad revenue. But the value it provided her in terms of fame and growing her fanbase far exceeded the production cost, and now she has her own studio.

>>114311938
5K ring, more than $100K on App Store over a year, and hundreds bucks each month on make-up and nails.
IRyS might be a lot of thing, but she isn't poor at least

>>114310722
No an edgy millennial or zoomer who finds 69, 420 and probably 6-7 hilarious.

>>114312087
>come on man, that's plain lie
Japan's median income is $3000
USA's median income is $7000
The USA is a dramatically richer country. Americans own cars, houses. Japanese walk, and live in a condo. The average Japanese is living a shoebox existence compared to the average american, and that's a fact.

>>114312105
It's easier when it's relatively transparent stuff like memberships and SCs, which was the case earlier. But it's messier when it's things like corporate partnerships that don't flow directly or immediately to talents, and as production costs go up it's riskier for individual talents. Meanwhile Cover has some $240M in revenue, they can absorb losses that talents can't. I don't think it's a good system, it pretty clearly affects the mental health of their talent. I think it's a holdover of the company being smaller.

>>114311938
That a fucking shit ring for 5k, you could get a way bigger diamond ring for that price.

>>114312072
>Japan is a poor backwater country. The average living standard in Japan is barely above poverty-level for the US. This is not sufficient, and more importantly it's not in line with what US law requires.
Not addressing my point and now you're moving away from the discussion to ramble off more bullshit that you likely can't prove.
>Yes, I'm telling you right now it's a scam
You can keep repeating something, it doesn't mean it's true. I told you what the law states and nothing Cover does violates or subverts it. You just think it feels wrong but again, you can't specifically detail why and have to resort to using exaggerated hypotheticals and comparisons.
>And since they paid for the shows themselves, they should own the show
That's not what the contract they signed states. The work they do, under their VTuber "persona" if you will, is owned by Cover, and that's what they signed off on. They are entitled to a portion of the profits that it generates. If you want to complain about legality then now you're arguing they should be able to subvert contracts when it benefits them. Now you're being a hypocrite.
>Nice rationalization. If a slave owner had to cover every expense of their slaves, they would have to go out of business. Doesn't make it legal though.
Again with the poor attempt at making a slavery connection. If anything you're the one arguing for slavery being enforced through the whims of the VTubers, being able to force any Cover employee to work for free or be saddled with debt, or fired if their ventures underperform.
>A normal employee is like a 1st class citizen compared to the 3rd class citizen that is an "independent contractor". The employee gets benefits, protections, all sorts of goodies that the independent contractor doesn't get.
Again, most employees have to work a minimum of 30 hours to receive any benefits and employers aren't required to provide what is considered "full" benefits unless they have 50+ employees and they ALL work 40+ hours/week. Most Holos don't do this, and even EN+ID combined aren't even half of that 50 employee requirement, and most of EN doesn't even live in the US. Your posts show you have a clear disdain for Japan to the point it prevents you from having any reasonable or honest discussion on this topic.

>>114312159
>Japan's median income is $3000
>USA's median income is $7000
when you flat compare thing like this you should also compare cost of living
americans live in suburbs and spend 5h in a car daily, japanese spend 40 minutes in a train
walking everywhere is a good thing you fat fuck

>>114312159
Lucky we don't judge living quality based on income, or people would've actually thought the US is one of the top 5 countries in the world to live in
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings

>>114312169
Average Holo talents make around $450K a year (higher effectively since that didn't account for the "loans"). They can absorb pretty decent amount of losses

>>114312159
You can tell this one is a burger that has never left their basement

>>114312169
>$240M in revenue
And pretty mediocre profit margins, though a lot of that was due to funding a failure of a "multiverse" game project and covering a bunch of male vtubers that were expected to earn over 30x what they did, being given resources at the expense of the actually profitable talents(the women in Hololive).
In fact their recent report their revenue went down YoY for the quarter, and they estimated they lost money from not allowing for more merch production(specifically having limited edition stocks being set too low impacting sales). Now those are some examples of Cover not investing in Holos enough, but that's not what a single person has said in this thread. Instead you just have some stupid dramanigger complaining about Hololive for his thousandth thread on this "debt" topic because he hates Japan.

>>114312093
redditor or a bot (or both)

>>114312213
>you likely can't prove.
I can't prove japan is a poor shithole? Lmao that's easy to prove, you don't even have your own military. You are an occupied nation.

>it doesn't mean it's true
It is 100% true. The only reason they're getting away with it, is because nobody has sued yet. The moment someone bites the bullet and sues, it will come crashing down like a house of cards. These vtuber companies are all flagrantly violating numerous employment laws. This little "independent contractor" loophole is cute, precious even, but it's also bullshit and totally illegal.

>The work they do, under their VTuber "persona" if you will, is owned by Cover
They paid their own money, and then the company assumes ownership of it? That's complete bullshit and everyone knows it. That isn't how it works, and more importantly that isn't how it SHOULD work.
>subvert contracts when it benefits them
An illegal contract gets ripped up by the judge. It's unenforcable. Just like how graduated vtubers in the west blatantly stream before their mandatory 6 month probation or whatever it's supposed to be? Because it's unenforcable. That part of the contract they signed would get immediately ripped up by any judge in america.

>being able to force any Cover employee to work for free or be saddled with debt
You misunderstand the metaphor, I can tell you're asian. The point isn't that Cover's talents are slaves, the point is that a slave owner could use the same bullshit logic as that.
> most employees have to work a minimum of 30 hours to receive any benefits
Then why are these companies dodging the responsibility of calling them "employees" so much? Obviously because that insinuates certain obligations they want to avoid. They are using this "independent contractor" thing which is intended for very short-term work, like handyman work and such. That's what it's supposed to be for.
>Your posts show you have a clear disdain for Japan
I think you're culturally inferior and you are stuck in a neofuedalist state, where you guys worship corporations like gods walking the earth. Japan literally has no free speech like they're in the fucking Dark Ages, and companies regularly sue people who dare criticize them. That is a violation of basic human rights and human decency and is totally repugnant.

>>114309647
I am a fat wealthy man. She will be pleasing me to pay off her debts

>>114312312
>Lmao that's easy to prove, you don't even have your own military. You are an occupied nation
Getting too schizophrenic here anon, I don't live in Japan and I already told you I live in the US.
>It is 100% true. The only reason they're getting away with it, is because nobody has sued yet. The moment someone bites the bullet and sues, it will come crashing down like a house of cards. These vtuber companies are all flagrantly violating numerous employment laws. This little "independent contractor" loophole is cute, precious even, but it's also bullshit and totally illegal.
Again, you can't detail a single law they're breaking and calling something a "loophole" doesn't mean anything. If you can't prove they broke the law or their contract in court you'll just be losing money. Even the worst situations you can point to like the Selen and Twisty situations you brought up would end up costing them far more money in legal fees than they would ever earn back from anycolor.
>that isn't how it SHOULD work
So now you're finally admitting it's just a feeling, because that is exactly how it works. They sign a contract and that says the money they spend, the resources they use on their activities as a Hololive VTuber are owned by Cover. Cover gives them a much better cut on these projects when they fund most of their own merch and event costs. This is also standard for virtually any employer in the US, they all have contracts that say anything you do on their hours, as their employee, that would benefit the company in any way, is owned by the company.
>An illegal contract gets ripped up by the judge
You would have to prove it's illegal
>Just like how graduated vtubers in the west blatantly stream before their mandatory 6 month probation or whatever it's supposed to be?
That's just /vt/ speculation, nothing has been confirmed.
>Then why are these companies dodging the responsibility of calling them "employees" so much? Obviously because that insinuates certain obligations they want to avoid. They are using this "independent contractor" thing which is intended for very short-term work, like handyman work and such. That's what it's supposed to be for.
I don't think they're trying to dodge anything, at least Cover isn't. They provide benefits despite not needing to legally do so. They provide value and resources that 99.99% of VTubers would never have access to, to their VTubers. I don't really care what they call them in the contract, these are the facts.

>>114309647
GRIM

>>114312422
>I don't live in Japan
good, you should avoid poor shitholes like that
>you can't detail a single law they're breaking
Oh so I can't say something is clearly illegal unless I know the exact legal code? Fuck off.
If corporations could incentivize employees to spend their own money on things, and then take control of them, that would become extremely degenerate and essentially be bribery. Obviously that's not legal. You can't pay your company for a promotion.
>you're finally admitting it's just a feeling
The people make the law. If the law is bullshit, we change it. So yes, if I think the law violates sensibilities, then the law is wrong. But in this case I don't even think that's the case, I think half of this stuff they are doing is blatantly illegal.

>>114309647
Holy fuck. Not only their income is shit compared to NijiEN, but they are also chained to their black company by the in-company loans. That's some criminal shit right there.

>>114312478
nta. wtf is this brainfart?
>if i feel it should be illegal it is illegal

lots of shitposting here obviously but i genuinely don't understand this way of doing things. if i had to pay for my own stuff at work i'd quit immediately. that's so fucked up to me

>>114312478
>Oh so I can't say something is clearly illegal unless I know the exact legal code? Fuck off.
Yeah, you said someone should sue and that means you'd need to prove they broke the law or their contract in court. You can't so you'd just waste a lot of money on legal expenses to look like a fool.
>If corporations could incentivize employees to spend their own money on things, and then take control of them, that would become extremely degenerate and essentially be bribery.
Good thing Cover provides them access to all of the tools and personnel needed to hold these events, at lower prices than competitors, and for no interest.
>The people make the law. If the law is bullshit, we change it. So yes, if I think the law violates sensibilities, then the law is wrong. But in this case I don't even think that's the case, I think half of this stuff they are doing is blatantly illegal.
Again, you'd need to prove that they're breaking the law as it currently is written. If you really feel the situation is unfair then you need to be out campaigning for labor law changes instead of complaining about Hololive and Japan on 4chan. That would actually make a difference.
Though I'll caution you if you go that way you need to be accurate and less openly biased and emotional. It helps your cause a lot more when you're personable and receptive.

>>114312558
Yeah but do you ask your boss to start a new project you want to do and expect him to pay for everything with complete immunity for you if it fails?

>>114312586
that's usually how it works. company takes the risks not the employee.
when someone decides to drill at certain spot to find oil, because of a geological hint, manager who approves it doesn't pay for the drill if there is no oil in there.

>>114312558
worker vs. contractor

File: 1767959786240.png (269 KB, 1080x1523)

269 KB PNG

>>114310805
https://coveredge.cover-corp.com/en/list/2670

>>114312613
That doesn't answer, or is relevant to my question.

>>114312530
The fucked up thing is that they'll be paying off those loan debts for years, guaranteeing their forced stay in the company. That's literally the reason why 95% of them are still there, living like animals below the low income standards.

>>114312644
let me rephrase
geologist brings report- managers tells boss maybe there is oil in there let's drill - boss takes the risk or not
what happens with holo?
geologist brings report- managers tells boss maybe there is oil in there let's drill - boss tells you to buy the drill yourself and do it

>>114312530
>Not only their income is shit compared to NijiEN
Stop the cap. nijiEN rarely gets decent merch anymore, they never sell out, and they get less superchats and members than almost every single Holo member, let alone HoloEN.
>>114312663
The clip posted with IRyS she said she's only expecting to be negative on her paycheck for 2-3 months.

>>114312234
>Average Holo talents make around $450K a year
This is just misinformation, stop saying it.

>>114312701
Nope, that's wrong. To be similar to Holo it would be (you) asking to drill in uncharted territory because you think there's oil to be struck. And now you have to convince your boss that you should lead the project and also get a return on the profits if you do strike liquid gold. Obviously with the opposite being true, that you are now stuck with any losses if you're wrong and there's nothing.

Japan should just sell more US Bonds. Boost their currency and rest easy.

>>114310875
i bet they have to pay for the health checkups themselves :P

>>114312706
>they get less superchats and members than almost every single Holo member, let alone HoloEN
playboard seems to think differently
>nijiEN rarely gets decent merch anymore, they never sell out
2 more weeks until Fagoo stops pissing his pants and publishes the HoloEN income in a financial report, kek. Until then, they are being mogged by NijiEN.

>>114312718
That was a typo. I meant to say 450K yen annually.

>>114312159
this is the first time ever i've seen someone say that having walkable cities is a bad thing. you're fucking retarded lmao

>>114312743
geology report is market condition, which company should have responsibility for
again filming analogy, it's like asking an actor about movie trends when its producer job to know

>>114312280
>$240M in revenue
>mediocre profit margins
Revenue is an important figure because it tells you the talent are generally performing. If you want to talk about margins, Cover has ~741 employees and god knows how many projects they're funding. It's just a lot easier to blame the talent "oh they spend too much on their vanity projects" than ask what's hoovering up money we don't even see.

File: Lemao.jpg (133 KB, 480x360)

133 KB JPG

>>114311938
The same woman that can easily afford the inflated pc price. Holoantis are really that stupid.

>>114310894
>Cover provides Japanese health insurance to all of their talents.
In the US this would legally make them a w-2 employee vs a 1099 contractor. The moment you get benefits you no longer become a contractor. I am not familiar with JP tax or employment law, but that may be why they want everyone to move to Japan who lives. in the EU or NA because otherwise they are likely doing some real shady shit.

>>114312859
Again, your analogies suck and don't accurately reflect the situation. Holos want to do the projects, which use dozens if not hundreds of other employees and commissioned workers' time for months. If you went to your boss with a proposal, it got approved, but then it failed you would certainly be stuck with repercussions in any industry.

>>114312625
> be Cover Corp
> "We care about our talents' health"
> Outsource annual medicals to a $5-per-head budget tele-health firm in Bangalore
> Talent: "I haven't slept in 48 hours and my throat is bleeding"
> Dr. Pooja: "Saaar please do the needful and drink warm water"
> Mental health checkup is a 30-second Zoom call with a guy in a noisy cubicle
> "Are you feeling the depression? Please do not do that. It is bad for the brand."
> "But I'm having a-"
> "Thank you, session over. Please rate 5 stars on Google."
> Sasuga black company

>>114312830
It's not even clear thinking on your part, what do you think Miko or Marine make compared to Iofi or Moona. There's a clip here of Risu saying ID literally doesn't have the budget to produce music (despite wanting to), so don't expect too much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-pH_PPo-4E

>>114312961
>Average

File: 1740855521341.jpg (379 KB, 1592x829)

379 KB JPG

>>114312706
>"and they get less superchats and members than almost every single Holo member, let alone HoloEN."
>still able to make a decent living in japan.
Whatever argument you're making, it's not a good one.

>>114312961
Isn't everything cheap in indogland so that even a minimum salary in the 1st world country would make you a king there?

>>114312975
>one person with 91 coins
>nine people with 9 coins
>"oh we have an average of ten coins per person"
Do you not realize how stupid you sound?

>>114312942
It's Japanese healthcare though, it doesn't apply to the US's employment laws. And like I said, most of EN doesn't live in the US and those that do don't even satisfy the requirements to receive full-time benefits under US law.
>why they want everyone to move to Japan who lives. in the EU or NA
They don't, that's just another /vt/ rrat because it's more convenient for Holos to live in Japan.

>>114313002
Risu is talking about producing content, not buying a rice plate. And she's in Hololive. Aki talked about how it's more expensive for them to commission anything than indies (corporate rates). It's obviously going to affect the members on a tighter budget more.

>>114313008
>One has biggest income, everyone else has the lowest
Lmao, what is this silly fantasy situation you imagined? In reality, the income gradient is much more smooth, with a lot of high-earners, low-earners and inbetweeners.

>>114312985
>didn't pay for stuff and is expected to pay it, she signed up for it after all
>Cover splits the payment so she still has money to spend each month
That seems pretty fair and receptive to her needs. Unlike nijiEN which has finana and others begging for donos for food and to help pay off student loans(literally only ~$10k and she hasn't paid it off despite being in niji for over 5 years).
Bae's debt to Cover is also no interest, unlike the ones nijiEN is saddled with.

>>114313077
Do you really think income in the entertainment industry is shaped like a bell curve?

>>114313088
>defending yagoo debt
>somehow shifts to niji
I hope whatever paycheck yagoo is giving you is good.

>>114313088
nta, but it's split because she wouldn't be able to pay it off otherwise. Doesn't make it any less predatory, with them still being forcefully held there by their loans, akin slavery. The "no interest" seems more like a cope here.
As for Finana and """others""", you clearly have no clue about her situation, when he got the debt and the fact that she's being stupid by spending most of her income on gacha.

>>114313108
It's more like a linear distribution

>>114313194
NTA, but unlike what schizos think, Yagoo debt is something talents themselves want and that saves them the money compared to paying for their stuffs themselves (even in the "worst" case, it's the still the same if it's for tax deductible stuffs)
So yeah, if you are a Holo fan, you should be defending the loan scheme unless you want your oshi to be taxed to hell

>>114312718
This faggot isn't me >>114312830, and around $450K is right unless you meant to say that top talents make much more (>>114312975 isn't me either, but I do agree with him; I was talking about average - which is dragged down by IDs and homos so mid-level popularity like IRyS or top talents likely make way more)
But around $450K a year is right. You can check that from their financial report.

>>114313246
>and that saves them the money compared to paying for their stuffs themselves
you do remember they also pay for an army of manages, accountants and support stuff in the company? there is no cover without it's talents
you somehow forget that cover take a cut from each and every income source talent makes

>>114313194
>>somehow shifts to niji
You're too stupid to follow post chains yet but in for some reason. Least retarded /vt/ fag.
>paycheck yagoo is giving you
Holy nijicope.

File: 23578238932.png (3.75 MB, 2288x1286)

3.75 MB PNG

>>114313285
Neither of you are credible at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23i8hwMlApo

>>114313285
I just checked report and the real "You" was right, it is indeed around 450k yen annually.

>>114313291
Yes because Cover owns the IP. This is simple multimedia business operation, but you sure like to talk with authority about something you know nothing about.

>>114313291
>there is no cover without it's talents
>you somehow forget that cover take a cut from each and every income source talent makes
No, I don't, but why should that matter? It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Yes, without Hololive members, Cover wouldn't be around. On the other hand, without Cover, Hololive members would still be their struggling 3views selves before joining Hololive. The managers (or Cover employees in general), studio staffs (3D, mixing, etc.), advertisements, merch releases, connections and all that cost money - that's what all the cuts are for, or you get VShojo and countless other corpos that closed down because they ran out of money

>>114310722
He's clickbaiter

>>114313331
Actually watch it instead of just looking at the thumbnail. She said she doesn't make as much because she spent most of her pay on her projects

>>114313340
Ogey

>>114313344
>actors should pay for the complete movie production they are in, because it's a mutually beneficial relationship

>>114313331
>the woman who was among the top spenders in the company
She says it might just be her. Niggas really just post a clip for the thumbnail. You faggots aren't even lowly clipwatchers, you're a fucking thumbnail clickbait spammer.

File: 234798328672.png (3.92 MB, 2322x1308)

3.92 MB PNG

>>114313353
>>114313401
Should I post more?

>>114313331
That's literally what I was talking about. Those retarded niggers look at the remuneration number and claim that what is what talents get, while in reality most of it goes into the Cover's income recycling schemes (the tactfully named "business expenses" in the video) like fake superchats/members, fake merch sales, etc. to increase their sales to boast about in their financial reports. This is also the main reason why their margins are so pathetic. And yeah, as seen in this video, the actual talent income is less than 10% from that.

>>114313411
>are used
>net
So again, she spent a lot of money because she pushed out a ton of music and for a sololive before her graduation.
>>114313481
>fake superchats fake merch sales
Holy fucking sad nijicope.

>>114313514
You can seethe all you want, but that won't stop it from being the truth. Everything is documented and transparent while your cope is only in your retarded head.

>>114313514
>putting the production budget onto individual talents
Yes anon, that's what the discussion is about.

>>114313543
>Everything is documented and transparent
Yeah and that's what they put in their report, required by law, instead of your cringe nijinigger seethe and headcanon posts on /vt/.

>>114313481
NTA, but then your argument is retarded.
Those "business expenses" are fully optional. Talents choose to spend them as they wished (some more than others), but they don't need to spend them. What they spend don't even go into Cover's pocket either, but 3rd party like Kanauru, monii, choreographers or the like. When people say "Hololive members make XXX dollars", it means just that - Cover pays them XXX dollars. It doesn't matter what they spend those XXX dollars on - their projects, their personal hobbies, investing or put into their bank accounts.
Saying that
>the actual talent income is less than 10% from that.
is like saying that I don't make 6 figures as a SE if I choose to spend most of it on buying houses, playing golf or gacha.

>>114313564
No you were trying to claim they don't get paid that amount, when she stated she spends her paychecks on that. You weren't making an argument about the money she had left for wanting to make a dozen songs, MVs, and a sololive in a year.

>>114313564
Talents don't need to produce what they aren't paid (by Cover) for

>>114313577
>no u
No arguments? I accept your concession then.
Also, you know, I can play this game too:
Yeah and that's what they put in their report, required by law, instead of your cringe holonigger seethe and headcanon posts on /vt/.

>>114313599
Are anons really this retarded?
>company wants to produce a movie
>business expenses in producing movieare fully optional
Really? That's what you're going with?

And as always the thread devolves into nijiniggers seething at Hololive. Truly an unexpected outcome for clipfag clickbait spammers.

>>114313599
You clearly failed to comprehend the post, anon

>>114313619
That wasn't a no u, those are the facts being stated to you. Now you'll parrot this back at me because you haven't refuted a single thing I posted.

>>114313613
You're right, they could just quit.

>>114313620
But company does NOT want to produce the movie in this case. That's the point. What the company wants to produce, they pays for in full. This is what an employee wants to produce, not the company.
That's what I'm going with. You were saying as if Cover needed or wanted those "optional" stuffs, but they didn't.

>>114313648
>That wasn't a no u
It was.
I'll refute your retarded claims only after you refute my arguments that I made first, without your usual projection.

>>114309647
Negative because she paid the cost for the sololive. After the concert, tickets sold will pay it out.

>>114313646
The other guy was trying to twist shit to make it sounds worse, see >>114313607 for a simple explanation

>>114313683
You're just a retard, anon. Of course Cover wants Kanata, Marine, etc. putting out the best content they possibly can, because that's what builds Hololive's brand and makes them successful. That's obviously going to cost money, they can't produce anything with no budget. What even is your logic here?

>>114313665
Sure, they can. There isn't nothing wrong with that. The reason why most Hololive members haven't - outside of members who wanted to relax in retirement mode - is that staying is still their best option to progress their career further and reach higher heights

>>114313732
If they want to, they would've taken over and paid for them (see how Lamy's wine was originally a personal project, then Cover took over and now there are wine for various other talents).
At the very least, we do know that those optional contents rarely make money or are beneficial for the talents - as Marine herself said. They do those as gifts to the fans and for their own enjoyments, not because they are massively benefitable.
Do you think Cover doesn't pay for anything or what?

>>114313692
>It was
Nope.
>I'll refute after you refute my arguments
You can't prove any of your arguments. You claimed it's fake, said it's documented and transparent, yet you have no proof and don't have any of said documentation to post to support your claims. You've defeated your own "argument". I just stated it was required of them to be accurate and truthful by law in their reports(actual documentation) showing the remuneration.
Now move on to your next cope.

>>114309647
She said she'll get it back in 2 or 3 months, so her paycheck is around 30k$ each month

>>114313792
She didn't mention the $69,420 figure anywhere, btw. That was what the clipper put in because of le funny numbers 69 and 420

>>114313765
>If they want to, they would've taken over and paid for them
No, they wouldn't, because then the financial liability for bombing transfers to the company itself and management has to take some accountability for success or failure. And when that becomes true, releasing funds needs sign-off approval, which then incurs a whole other host of problems that come from the inevitable bureaucracy. From a certain perspective it's easier to just pay them a "salary" (de facto production budget) and wish them luck.

>>114313782
It's existence is proven by it's being in financial report and talents claiming their actual income being a tiny fraction of that while the rest is being spent by the company.
Then you "no u" projected your cope onto the financial report.
So yeah, you haven't refuted shit and lost miserably.

>>114313834
They took over Lamy's project and is now paying for those. They paid for all merch productions. They paid for HoloENReco. They paid for HoloEarth. They paid for freaking homoStars, among countless others expenses.
All of those have "possible financial liability for bombing", and some of those bombed badly (holoEarth, homoStars) never stopped them from paying for those.

>>114313866
>the rest is being spent by the company
Untrue
The rest is being spent by talents themselves. Some spent more than others. There are talents like Ayame who barely has any personal project and are still around, popular, and rich

>>114313866
>It's(twice)
>no u(used wrong again)
>cope(also used wrong)
>still no proof, no documents posted
Yeah you haven't made an argument and have no evidence and lost miserably.
How did Hololive mindbreak you this bad?

>>114313874
That's not an argument, it's a leap of logic. But I think you do bring up a good point, Cover often doesn't know what the fuck they're doing and are full of executives dragging talent down. Spending your own money affords some independence, of course that's desiriable.
>They took over Lamy's project and is now paying for those
So it's "contractor" when there's a risk, and "employee of the company" when there's success? You said it, not me.

>>114313913
>no u(used wrong again)
>looks under the cover
>no you
kek
>still no proof, no documents posted
The proof is still from your side, retard
>and lost miserably
Yet another "no you", lmao
>How did Hololive mindbreak you this bad?
Your stupidity is the thing that breaks minds

>>114313937
? They are always contractors, they aren't employee. Just because Cover can adapt a personal project doesn't mean Holo members became employee. That's just how Cover (or modern JP corpos in general) plays around traditional shushin koyo (lifetime employment). I'd like to bring up that when talents DO pay entirely for their project themselves, they get all the profits (after cuts for 3rd parties unaffiliated with Cover). Cover only gets their normal cuts if they provide relevant supports
And no, I'm not the other guy who was replying to you. Just thought anons and me keep dropping "NTA" would've seemed dumb

I feel like some people might be confusing an entertainment industry business with a government pension.

>>114313992
>The proof is still from your side
You're right, I actually have documents which have backing and you have still posted nothing despite claiming to have documentation. Thanks for conceding that.
>Yet another "no you"(it wasn't)
>Your stupidity
And to think you were saying I was projecting... not a good look after this meltdown you just had nijinig.

>>114314018
>They are always contractors, they aren't employee
It's an interesting question aside from the purely legal stuff. A contractor usually owns their tools and business. Hololive talents don't own anything, I think the only exceptions I know of myself are Suisei and Mori who have their own rights to the music they produce.

>>114314068
>Retarded ESL pajeet can't differentiate between "from" and "on"
Honestly, I expected nothing more. So yeah, the only thing conceded here is your comprehension.
>Y-your c-called m-me stuuupid, t-that means y-you are the one projecting
They definitely aren't sending their best. Though their best are just as retarded.
By the way, still waiting for the refutes. Not that I know that you don't have any.

>>114309647
You know, this is a classic scam pulled on sharecroppers and tribute miners.
Buy all your tools from the company store, do a bunch of work on the communal plot, and end up with a negative paycheck.

>>114314161
>Retarded ESL pajeet
Oof more of that projection on your end I see.
>between "from" and "on"
But you're missing a modifier in that phrase. Your phrase means the proof is coming from me when you don't include a modifier. Not a good look ESL bro...
>still waiting for the refutes
Yikes you messed up again, really not a good look for you, projecting ESL bro. Holo antis definitely aren't sending their best.
Had enough or are you going to bake another thread because this one didn't go how you wanted? lol

>>114310289
Deep voiced Irys is so sexy god fucking damnit

Look all I'm asking for is a single document you can post to prove your argument that the report numbers are faked. You need to substantiate your claims to make an argument after all!

>>114314228
>Oof more of that projection on your end I see.
Quite hilarious to hear that from the Mr. NoU of this thread. Also, it is a no u by itself. It's like 14th at this point?
>missing a modifier
Lmao, you can't make this shit up. The peak ESL clearly demonstrated by a holobrown.
>Not a good look ESL bro
>projecting ESL bro
>aren't sending their best
15th, 16th, 17th...
Still waiting for those refutes, by the way.

>>114314110
If they are really bothered of not owning the IP they can just not sign the yearly contract and go indie if they feel like it. Cover is probably more like an constrcution company where talents are the contractors using the companys more expensive tools (3d studio, contacts etc). otherwise they can operate how they want within set rules and boundaries. And talents do have their own tools too, its called PC that they do own.

>>114314281
Read the thread, brownoid

>>114314281
>your argument that the report numbers are faked
Who's even arguing that? The greater point is you can't take one number in isolation because there's certainly a lot of other things going on.

>>114314307
>>114314318
>no u(still using it wrong, what is it the 18th time at this point?)
Still waiting for you to post that documentation you claimed existed by the way.

>>114312147
some some weed dude

it's ok when the japanese vtuber company takes your money and doesn't pay you

>>114314326
>Who's even arguing that?
>>114313481
>The greater point is you can't take one number in isolation because there's certainly a lot of other things going on.
True, that's a point that's conveniently ignored by the clip posters who don't even know anything about the talents they're posting. Or even watch the clips they post. They don't really do anything but seethe at Hololive on /vt/ all day.

>>114314110
>>114314315
I think it's more accurate to compare Holo to VAs instead. VAs don't own the characters they voice act for, the character songs they sing, or most things of / about their characters either

>>114314315
>paid a salary by a company
>use the company's proprietary tools
>company owns everything produced
>if you don't like it, quit
Doesn't this sound more like an employee than a contractor?
>talents do have their own tools too
>its called PC that they do own
Oh, for god's sakes. Is a warehouse employee suddenly a contractor because they own their own shoes?

>>114314344
>n-no, it's y-you d-don't know h-how to use it
18th indeed
>Still waiting for you to post that documentation you claimed existed by the way.
>>114314318
>Had enough or are you going to bake another thread because this one didn't go how you wanted? lol
>Followed by >>114314281
I'll count it as the 19th

File: 236292023.png (858 KB, 1670x362)

858 KB PNG

>>114314373
Anon, you don't even understand the difference between mean and median.

>>114309647
Isn't that the point of a talent company? to get people to take risks that they aren't or wouldn't be comfortable taking as an indie?

>>114314478
You don't understand English as seen from your posts. She also said she doesn't understand "money talks" and you conveniently ignore the rest of the circumstances that led her to spending most of her money on her activities because doing so is convenient for you to keep seething.

>>114314547
Mean and median are statistical concepts, they're probably more relevant than you trying to pretend I'm ESL.
Do you understand the difference?

>>114310805
That would be labor misclassification both in the US and Japan which is illegal. They are allowed to work for anyone they want they just can't do it as Korone without going through cover.

You just don't know about their side gigs because you're a newfag larper and talking about them on 4chan is banned.

>>114314587
Yes I understand the difference. I also understand you're trying to deflect and argue definitions because you lost.
Still waiting for you to post that documentation by the way.

>>114314669
What documentation? All I did was post the Kanata and Risu clips. Or do you want to start slandering the talent now so you don't have to feel stupid on the internet? What a great defender of "Hololive" you are.

>>114314767
>Or do you want to start slandering the talent
I'm just quoting what Kanata said in the clip you posted. She said she doesn't understand money talk. For some reason this concerned Holo fan larp you're pulling is full of holes and lacking information you should know.

>>114314823
>I know better about Hololive's finances and production costs than a highly successful Hololive talent who worked there for six years
Ok, so you're just an idiot. You bait would actually be pretty funny if you actually understood how stupid you look.

>>114310953
>so why do they get to decide what she's allowed to upload there?
because she's using their character IP

>>114309647
ed*

i can’t believe how easy it is for you guys to fall for same bait every week

>Risu is broke and can't produce MVs because she spent her hundreds of thousands of dollars on acorns
>KEKAROO
>squirrel moment

File: file.png (328 KB, 638x906)

328 KB PNG

>>114314934

>>114314893
>idiot
>bait
>stupid
More clipwatcher projection. Let me know what she spent her money on if you're in the know, concerned Holo fan. It's already been stated a dozen times but I'm sure we need to keep looping for your clipnigger thread to satisfy the daily quota of Holoseethe this board needs. Lord knows this dying site needs the activity.

>>114315017
>just don't spend any money!!!
>why doesn't the talent know better?!
Bae put herself into notable debt as well, doesn't she have some kind of big announcement coming up? It's not hard to understand your career won't go anywhere unless you produce content and take risks. And it's not free.

>>114312625
One of the JP girls literally quit because she was throwing up blood and was told to please continue to come in. I don't think that their health system is all that great

>>114315298
>It's not hard to understand your career won't go anywhere unless you produce content and take risks. And it's not free.
Anon, I've been making similar statements for most of this thread. I think you got confused at some point.

>>114315375
The issue is when there's a downturn in the market, or something goes wrong for whatever reason, those projects might not recoup the cost. The talent is then left holding the bag and in debt for months because they're fronting the production cost themselves.
This isn't an issue for indies, it's just the reality of owning a business. But when Holomems don't actually own anything themselves, and you introduce things like management pressure and building the value of Hololive as a brand while not succeeding as an individual, it can get really messy. You should understand this stuff if you're not a drone. It's a 700+ person corporation and within an organization of that size, you have people with competing agendas and people getting lost in the cracks. It's not a chuuba daycare, no matter how much they push that image.

>>114315298
NTA, but none of the talents are in actual debt as in money trouble. No way Bae would've been able to spend - as she said herself - thousand dollars each month just on make up if she was actually in any money trouble (not to mention living expenses). Their "debts" are just the way for them to pay *less* for their projects which all of them happily take.
>It's not hard to understand your career won't go anywhere unless you produce content and take risks
This isn't entirely wrong, but you don't have to go into money trouble to progress your career and don't even have to take Cover's loan if you didn't want to either. Know what? If they just spend money from their own pocket, they could cut Cover mostly out of the profit sharing - wonder why they didn't do that? Because it'd have cost them more money than simply taking the "loans".
There are also talents who barely did or do any personal project and yet was / is still big (like Gura before she stopped giving a fuck or Ayame), but I won't bother bringing them up.

>>114315475
>This isn't an issue for indies
You've got to be joking, right? indies lose money on fucking merch scams that also fucked over their fans, let alone their recent concerts flopping. What is this cope?

>>114315475
>This isn't an issue for indies
It also is meaningless because indies' projects aren't more profitable AND cost them more than the same projects would've cost Holo.
All indies get is that they can claim ownerships of their projects, which is rather meaningless since most of those aren't profitable anyway

>>114315475
>This isn't an issue for indies
I'm just curious, who do you think will be left holding the bag and losing the cost for months, if not years, for indies' failed projects?

>>114315580
If you have full control and ownership of your brand, you bear full responsibility for both success and failure.
Within a corpo, there's a lot of confounding factors that can complicate things. Look at Selen/Doki and everything that happened there.

File: 2825df7859800386167d4bf89(...).png (852 KB, 533x1177)

852 KB PNG

>ITT indiefags concern trolling because Irys "isn't making any money"
She accidentally flashed gold designer jewelry and a cartier watch onstream. The shit she wears on her arms is probably worth more than you niggas make in a year.
You should worry about Nimi who can't afford a mocap setup.

>>114310504
Doesn't matter, Nijikeks will seethe, kek.

>>114315717
I wonder who buys an attractive woman jewelry?Anyways. Perhaps picrel was just following the sensible advice given in this thread, "don't take on large expenses that might not benefit you". She's clearly business savvy.
>doesn't produce any expensive idol content
>leaves Hololive
>creates her own IP that she owns
Is this really the point you wanted to make?

>>114309647
It's probably just a some kind of scheme to avoid taxes.

File: 1612055297392.jpg (38 KB, 500x500)

38 KB JPG

Taking on massive debt to own the sisters.
Deal with it libtards

File: indieflopvengers.webm (3.94 MB, 720x810)

3.94 MB WEBM

>>114315794
>she isn't poor she's just too cheap to give her fans concerts where she can move away from the spot she's standing on and can do more than just swing her arms around
Oh thanks for clarifying. I thought she was unfortunate. Didn't know she was a greedy asshole who exploits her retarded fans.

>>114316028
>Getting married
>Has her health
>Has her own business
>Can focus primarily on streaming
Do you really think she'd have been better off putting herself into debt going the idol route in Hololive? I'm mostly pointing out she took that advice "do less" that's being said above, whereas Bae did the exact opposite, because Bae needs that kind of 3D tech and marketing that's not easy to arrange as an indie.

>>114316142
>Indies can do anything corpos can do
So that was a fucking lie huh?
Also her concert was 55% empty. Probably didn't get paid for that shit kek.

>>114316168
Of course not, an indie can't produce anything like HoloFES. But there's benefits to controlling your career as well. Anyone not schizo will always realize there's pros and cons.

>>114316004
>massive debt
>paid off in a few months at most
jobless response

>>114316371
Cope lol get your credit cards out piggies IRyS cant afford rice and eggs anymore

>>114316462
poorfag seethe

>>114310369
>https://litter.catbox.moe/zjnujn.mp4
baused

>>114313481
Retaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard spotted, if there margins were "pathetic" they'd have a shit market cap.

>>114310805
>working people are willing to pay their own medical bills with their own money

The american mind cannot comprehend this.

>>114311242
lol, the only thing that can be criticized there was the time it took for a response (on christmas with nijifes ongoing)
the discord chat was made public and she never got permission, she just uploaded it anyway and then did her usual passive-aggressive tweet shtick (the manager specifically told her not to do this) when it was predictably privated

>>114317578
>how dare you not let our shitty management kneecap your career
Valid point.

>>114310912
the vtuber this thread spawned has literally mentioned they are sponsored by the company and encouraged her coworkers to partake

>>114315357
wait wat

>>114310646
This sounds very ____.
Fill in the blank.

>>114310289
She didn't understand what it was like to get no income.

>>114315794
>I wonder who buys an attractive woman jewelry?
Bro prefers to be a cuck instead of just retreating, lmao
>Defends Nimi
Oh, my bad, so you ARE a cuck.

>>114310369
Please stop, you're taking away the income of a poor Indonesian family...

>>114310875
>unlike in /vt/ where everyone seem to be in a sort of underground slave company that does not care for its workers.
So you mean every company in the US?
I work in the US so I know

>>114318960
You never bought jewelry for a gf? And I'm not talking about vtubers.

>>114309647
Who cares? She has a rich husband.

>>114310646
>They have a minimum payout
no they dont

>>114312280
If you think about it logically, Cover actually has more employees than AnyColor, while having fewer talents. That means each talent has to support more employees.
And yet, management issues still arise on a regular basis. It's a structural problem.

File: money freedom.jpg (535 KB, 2560x1440)

535 KB JPG

>>114310504
Talent freedom

>>114325759
Kind of funny and true. Management would probably prefer to burn money rather than fund the projects Hololive talents want

>>114309647
GRIM

>>114311282
Niji this Niji that, it's almost as they were different companies.
Retard.

Hololive management makes sure to keep their girls in debt so they can control them better compared to the others who left. Sasuga Hololive

>>114323879
Yeah staff bloat is a criticism lots of people bring up. Though somehow Cover still pays their VTubers and normal Cover employees more than anycolor does for their talents and employees on average.
Guess that's the difference between not paying dividends and viewfarms, and paying dividends and viewfarms.

>>114310805
Pretty much.
It's always been abused, especially by Niji, but it's so ingrained into the scene that it's just accepted now, kind of like the idea that the talents would pay for literally all of their own content out of pocket which is an insanely greedy concept for a production company. .

Very surprising you bumped your thread again with another samefag. Didn't expect that from a clip posting dramafag.