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File: 1766927151423940.jpg (329 KB, 1866x2048)
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Moth Edition

>What is /lig/?
/lig/ is a thread for viewers to find, share, and discuss indie vtubers who have on average 500 viewers or more.

>Why /lig/?
Large indie vtubers have more net fans, but they are outnumbered by 2views by the thousands. This is a thread for the VIP, regardless of what language they stream on.

>Can I shill my 499view oshi here?
Considering averages fluctuate widely, all the way down to 100 is reasonable. The minimal requirement however is being Twitch partner or the YouTube equivalent in numbers.

>Wait isn't that one a corpo?
/lig/ is a thread for chuubas of a decent size who aren't defined by their corporate branding, either due to the small size of the corporation or the independence and lack of oversight granted to the talents

>/lig/ Numbers
https://lignumbers.neocities.org/

>Twitch Clips Guide
https://pastelink.net/34vd5

>VOD Archival Guide
https://rentry.org/Vod_Archival_Guide

>/lig/ VOD Archive
https://rentry.org/Indie_Vod_Archives_lig_

>Koikatsu cards
https://mega.nz/folder/JYtkXJwL#07gAQCQqI_9FsmX9oQJKSA

>/lig/ Wheel of Names
https://wheelofnames.com/5jh-93j

>Tiermaker
https://tiermaker.com/create/-lig--16586688-3

>/lig/ Chuuba Birthday Calendar (WIP)
https://www.canva.com/design/DAE-XgWodVg/ofLz4QC1yPPQ4T6TTAE0fw/edit?utm_content=DAE-XgWodVg

>Upcoming Birthdays
October 4th - Rainhoe & Nene Amano
October 10th - Chromuchromu
October 18th - SquChan
October 21st - Grape
October 22nd - Froot
October 24th - Batatvideogames & YUY_IX
October 28th - VividlyVivi
October 31st - Ecto Plasmrat
November 4th - Bella

>OC material for the OP
https://mega.nz/folder/IIVD1IaJ#cfsRhWdJvzneIoG8HZUPuw

>/lig/booru
https://ligbooru.moe/

>Ducks
https://www.twitch.tv/dashducks (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed) (embed)

Other useful threads:
>>>/vt//big/
>>>/vt//corpo/
>>>/vt//choc/
>>>/vt//flip/
>>>/vt//haha/
>>>/vt//indie/
>>>/vt//mint/
>>>/vt//swarm/
>>>/vt//vrt/
>>>/vt//xvsj+/

Previous Thread: >>115335024
>>
dog
>>
cat
>>
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love
>>
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>>
elf
>>
cute grimmi sneeze
>>
burt
>>
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>>
>>115339079
little kitten sneeze or a big brassy fart sneeze
>>
>>115339097
Why did layna back off from doing porn?
>>
>>115339101
the former
>>
>>115339097
Leave Layna alone with me for one weekend at the right time of month and her hag baby fever will be cured forever
>>
reminder Vedal WON and Layna LOST
AI is the FUTURE
luddites BTFO
>>
>>115339106
Has Layna ever committed to anything anon? Come on
>>
>>115339106
Breakup
>>
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>>
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>>115339115
aaaaaaiiiiiiieeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>115339106
she broke up with her bf
>>
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Italian fox love
>>
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French bunny love
>>
>>115339106
didnt do the numbers she wanted
>>
Why is Chromu sexually fixated on a webcomic character from 2000?
>>
>>115339158
chromu is 39 years old
>>
>>115339158
Are you familiar with autism spectrum disorder?
>>
>>115339158
at some point you're too jaded to experiment and stick to the good old reliable
>>
why is ecto offline
>>
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why didnt she just word it better the first time? why'd she unfollow 3 of them? sounds like bull to me
>>
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Has there ever been a more successful grift than scripting a fake chatbot with some canned/curated phrases and then inserting them every 10th sentence or so to make millions off of retards that then watch it interact with ewhores?
>>
>>115339178
>What is damage control
>>
Becoming my healthiest, strongest, fittest, happiest, most confident self for the express purpose of pumping my oshi full of my virility
>>
Has there ever been a more successful grift than a bat at video games
>>
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>>115339063
agreed
>>
>>115339191
Yes.
>>
>>115339178
>has a woman moment
>gets BTFO by someone that doesnt even think about you
oof... humiliation...
>>
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>>115339176
>>
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Good morning /lig/. I love my cute, horny and bratty sex fox. I LOVE HER SO MUCH! Erm!
>>
>>115339199
The issue was swamp ass.
>>
>>115339176
why are you online
>>
>>115339106
she did it because vtuber porn was the meta at some point and she always chases that. she dropped it and moved on tot he next meta
>>
>>115339215
ectos swamp ass...
>>
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>>115338839
little guy
>>
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Vedal literally isnt talented and he didnt "build neuro from the ground up" Neuro is literal jeetoid gpt vibe coded slop. kill yourself no seriously full stop kill yourself
>>
>>115339241
you need to go back nigger
>>
>>115339241
neuro was better when she was doing insane schizo rambling while trying to mine the moon in minecraft
>>
Musk turning on twitter locations will never not be funny. I still laughed when it showed saba in sweden and one of the idol corps girls in israel and they went to private it like nothing happened.

Which liggers tried to private their location?
>>
>>115339036
>>
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there will be no peace and love as long as vedal's vibe coded jeet slop is allowed to exist.
>>
>>115339272
kill yourself simonjeet
>>
>>115339272
Me I live in transnistria
>>
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Why isn't Vivi streaming for me?
>>
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What molly mom supposed to look like
>>
I am in Langley, Virginia
>>
>>115339241
it really is insane how chatgpt with a cute anime model turned him into a millionaire. vtuber fans are pure cattle
>>
>>115339321
hehe vagina
>>
>>115339321
We're gonna gang rape you anon
>>
>snuffy not in the dokibird schedule still
Yikes already moving friend groups again?
>>
>>115339333
Not if he serial rapes you guys first
>>
I live at 55°45′39″N 37°37′42″E
>>
>>115339321
stan smith in the liggy
>>
>>115339241
>>115339279
Come on mouse you will beat vedals subathon record next time.
>>
>>115339346
You are going in the Lubjanka basement
>>
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>>115339241
Post Pepe_no_121.png
>>
>>115339342
about time dokies laugh is so obnoxious about as bad as that fat disgusting bitch crelly
>>
I hate it here but i still stay
>>
I wrote a post about women with cocks but deleted because I realized OP wasnt the juni futa version
>>
>>115339350
She’s the only one who never tried to leech off of him because of her resentment for any vtuber with a comparable audience. Same with filian
>>
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sad times make for weak vivis, weak vivis make for vague streams
>>
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minto
>>
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No peace
>>
>>115339371
anon? that is not a puffy vulva
>>
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>>115339360

>>115339391
low effort and not even that attractive
>>
You guys learned nothing.
>>
>>115339371
you should look again
>>
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https://x.com/sukotheangel/status/2101685311742882098
>>
>>115339409
>low effort
every cosplay slut ever in existence
>>
Now that layna clarified everything y'all should be ashamed of your reaction a few hours ago, a bunch of gossiping bitches instantly jumping on her for being crazy and disrespectful, yikes, apologise to her right now
>>
>>115339182
Chatgpt is not vtubing but at least it's exposing the whores that chase numbers
>>
eros was right, black souls is shit
>>
>>115339426
literally me on the bottom
>>
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This thread needs Essiesus
>>
i miss my elf
>>
>>115339446
It's misery porn for the sake of misery porn. So yeah, it's shit.
>>
>>115339432
unfortunately for her 4views don't get to play the girlfailure card
>>
>>115339391
delicious armpit folds...
>>
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>>115339467
me too
>>
>>115339432
Did she clarify why she unfollowed all those people or called them out?
>>
im gonna be real... i dont actually care about the vedal drama im just using it to stir the pot and shitpost.. sorry if that dissapoints you
>>
Sometimes it's just really exhausting reading posts here. Do you not get tired of putting stuff in the most bitter, disingenuous doublespeak you can think of? Every notable event or discussion is just immediately met with such a negative spin, usually only half true. The volume of bullshit is so high that it's pointless to refute because they can so easily just say another outrageous thing. What the fuck happened? Why is everyone here so fucking angry and miserable? It doesn't have to be like this.
It's not just the thread, it's the whole board.
>>
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"Don't worry about it anon. Hee hee, we can be forever alone together." she says cackling in that laugh that only Meat could have
>>
>>115339507
tldr?
>>
>>115339511
Why /vt/ shitty and miserable?
>>
>>115339507
Maybe if the worst possible interpretation wasn't correct constantly we wouldn't post like this layna.
>>
>>115339507
you are now reconsidering whether or not the posting here is organic
>>
>>115339507
this thread and board is a microcosm for the internet as a whole
you know exactly how bad it is
>>
>>115339518
people who watch vtubers are shitty and miserable
>>
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>>115339507
trolonpalu
>>
>>115339507
everyone in this thread caught aids from mococo
>>
>>115339507
people use 4ch as an outlet to let out their vile thoughts in one echo chamber. real life isn't like this because we have societal guards from letting the schizo out.
>>
>>115339507
>It's not just the thread, it's the whole board
Twitter is even worse and she probably saw the responses from there.
>>
>>115339450
rosie please get her to voice act for more porn
>>
>>115339507
your first mistake is taking the posts seriously. Secondly you need to be able to better understand and be able to spot when someone is shitposting. Thirdly is being able to properly identify an "anti" and disregard what they say.
>>
>>115339544
I'm always nise on here, why wouldn't I be?
>>
>>115339507
sometimes when I look at pictures of girls feet I start to feel an hard feeling at my pants
>>
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>Vedalfags cry bully layna into cancelling her stream anniversary
>It's somehow this thread's fault
I honestly wonder if these guys are mods doing damage control or they really are just that fucking stupid.
>>
>>115339581
you might want to get that checked out
>>
>>115339544
i use 4chan as an outlet for the kinds of thoughts i can't share with other people
they're usually horny thoughts
>>
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>>115339581
>getting turned on by feet
what a weirdo
>>
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>>115339600
Same
>>
>>115339272
I thought Menaces was the funniest.
But I digress.
>>
>>115339507
4chan isn’t a monopoly anymore for vtuber discussion. There are other sites with more (not necessarily better) moderation yet we all choose to stay here because we love drama and hate.
>>
>>115339616
well, it's either horny thoughts or just weird, lame cringey shit i'd be ashamed of telling other people
>>
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Why is the cell phone so afraid of going to the dentist?
Because it doesn't want to get it's bluetooth removed!
>>
>>115339600
same
i like to hornypost about certain vtubers as futa goddesses raping me forever
>>
mrpersonguy on the move
>>
>>115339426
suko sex
>>
>>115339544
i use 4chan to yell at people who annoy me
>>
>>115339626
Isn't she an American?
>>
I use 4chan to be really horny about vtubers
>>
>>115339676
you can't do that
>>
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what do you call a gay human?
a homosapian
>>
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>>115339507
I do this mostly to improve my English proficiency, because it's way better to write long ass complicated sentences than to type "bat", "kys" or "I love my oshi". I'm very sorry about that, I don't really mean most of it.
>>
>>115339241
Trvke but aijeets will seeth at this.
>>
>>115339048
Are you a faggot retard or something?
>>
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>>115339676
don't we all
>>
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>>115339544
I only post about little girls (and sex with them).
>>
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place your bets will she stream again
>>
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>>115339707
>>
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4chan is the only place I can talk about my weakness to anal
>>
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>>115339719
>>
>>115339724
All of my GBP on "Absolutely not"
>>
>>115339738
you could stream and talk about it
>>
>>115339702
You should mean everything you post and get in pointless arguments for no reason.
>>
>>115339702
you can do both
>>
>>115339724
Yeah, at least two more times.
>>
>>115339738
/vt/ is my lgbt safespace
>>
What if Saba streamed two times a week(Wednesday and Thursday)?
>>
>>115339426
Do not post this picture of Suko.
>>
Hacker keeps getting called gorgeous by salon workers
>>
>>115339768
>saba
>stream
pick one
>>
I just planted 6 trees. Ligger that would be the most impressed if I tell them and who would DM me to tell me how wonder it is that I'm such an economist and saving the environment?
>>
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>>115339773
Nope.
I'm not giving up suko to the brown cucks.
>>
Can anyone qrd this game clio is playing? Is she doing anything or is it just playing itself
>>
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Vedal and his dickriding whores drove Lanya out of vtubing
>>
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>>115339828
>>
>>115339828
Lmao this nigga is screenshotting discord while on a call
>>
>>115339828
kwab
>>
>>115339810
you don't gotta be so hard on yourself
>>
>>115339828
who is you talking to on the phone lil nigga?
>>
>>115339810
based
>>
>>115339616
Nina Glory Box
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2-lbn66v3w
>>
>>115339828
Being so tied up with other streamers that your own community can't sustain your streams is so bad. That's why I'm glad the people I watch focus on their own communities and don't give a fuck if their special streams overlap with others.
>>
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Some of you should try just enjoying the digital women instead of whatever it is you're doing
>>
>>115339629
Towee is better
>>
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Denpafish should've stayed in Gander
>>
>>115339941
and you should stay quiet
>>
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>>115339426
>>115339810
based
>>
Molly professes she is not a pickme anymore, and to please not pick her oh god you don't wsnt to pick her
>>
Moriko just cancelled 100 PSP game wheel challenge because it overlapped with Nina's subathon
Why would Nina do that...
>>
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goodnight /lig/
counting down the days until my wife returns
>>
>>115340014
Goodnight wolfbro
>>
>>115339828
For those who don't know, Vedal is a programmer who created Neurosama, the "pure AI vtuber". Neurosama was an innovation back in the day, but she's essentially some primitive chatbots stitched together with toothpicks and duct tape, and has long been surpassed by modern AI chatbots. Neurosama frequently loses her train of thought, spergs out, or fails to respond, and needs constant human intervention. In fact Vedal has taken to swooping into the streams to save the day so often, that neurosama streams basically became a ventriloquist act with Vedal doing most of the talking.

Anyway, Vedal became popular by proxy of Neurosama, likely juicing the algo with bots, he is a programmer afterall. He became surrounded with a clannish group of whores seeking his praise and affections, and money, riding his dick constantly.

So is Vedal humble and responsible being basically a harem protagonist? No in fact him and his groupies decided to shaft Lanya and override her big anniversary stream. Now Lanya announces she's probably leaving forever.
Vedal is a sexpest and a faker running a malfunctioning chatbot who plays innocent.
>>
>>115340041
tldr?
>>
>>115340041
Thanks grok
>>
>>115340041
Thanks anny!
>>
this is like the saddest version of a news reporter
>>
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>>115340014
Sleep tight
>>
I prefer the RES chatbot
>>
I didnt read any of that
>>
Is layna bpd?
>>
I keep saying this, but Yocci x Kuu Red-Blue Oni collab
>>
>>115340086
is pushing 40 and has no kids. what do you think
>>
>>115339241
Vibe coding, as it exists today, wasn't really a thing when Neuro first appeared
>>
>>115340098
And what if you're over 40, have no kids, and have a Fansly?
>>
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>>
>>115340041
>He became surrounded with a clannish group of whores seeking his praise and affections, and money, riding his dick constantly.
every single one of us would do the same
>>
>>115340112
nina feet
>>
>>115340113
You maybe, but I have no plans to ride some guys dick no matter how famous he is
>>
god i want to fuck an entire clan of whores
>>
>>115340113
Nah I'd settle down with a girl who used to like crab fishing. Wait...fuck
>>
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I assure you guys, the grass isn't greener on the whore fucking side
>>
Nina Doomed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0bod9Y69gI
>>
>>115340014
*Our wife. Silver is communal property.
>>
Oh my fucking god chatroom turn on the tv, vshoujo is imploding live!!!!!!!!
>>
Alright, after extensive research the official lowball MINIMUM estimate on the number of penises Nyanners has had inside her is *drum roll*:

43
>>
i keep looking at vtuber discords and realizing i don't care about talking to any of these people except the vtuber
>>
>>115340143
what the fuck are you talking about schizo
>>
>>115339097
you know what im thinking layna was in the right
>>
Over the past 2 years I noticed the more I become someone vtubers would date thel ess interested I am in dating a vtuber.
>>
>>115340183
lol can't believe there are cucks who still watch this bitch
>>
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>>115340190
I'm talking about how despite being able to have sex with lots of women it won't make you feel whole inside and they just want it to be transactional and they don't want to do anything but take from you. Its awful
>>
>>115339507
he is homeless and meat is his mom
>>
>>115340218
you should shut the fuck up and watch me have sex with denpa
>>
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>you will never fuck and worship an entire clan of vtuber whores as their plaything

it simply isn't worth it to persist and suffer on this planet anymore
>>
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>>115340224
Do it. I fucking dare you to fly to Newfoundland and have impregnating sex with her and then you have to provide for her for 18 years while raising a child. You won't pussy
>>
>>115340232
Somehow one of the most cuckesque posts you've ever written, which is saying a lot
>>
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>>115340183
Forty three. Now that's not bad for a pointy-eared catgirl princess.

I myself am sitting pretty on <forty four>.
>>
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Why is the idea of impregnating a vtuber so much more alluring than impregnating a real woman?
>>
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>>115340237
That all you got? You know you couldn't step up and make a woman like Denpafish happy because you don't even know how to be happy yourself. I know because you're opting to talk shit with me instead of simply ignoring me. Weak ass bitch
>>
>>115340245
Because you don't go outside
>>
>>115340245
it’s not I hate children
>>
>>115340250
Denpa, either start the livestream or shut up.
>>
>>115340258
>he didn't watch the fansly stream earlier
>>
>fansly
retard
>>
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>watching denpafish in 2026
retards
>>
>>115340254
I do, but the prevailing fashion for women around my parts makes me wish I were gay.

>>115340256
Same though
>>
>>115340183
at the same time?
>>
which vtuber makes the best pornography

specifically JOI about being her little bitch if possible
>>
>>115340250
cuck
>>
>silly feet goal gets met
>immediately schedules a pedicure.
Nina is a Patriot. No pussyfooting (lol) around. She’s a woman of action.
>>
>>115340295
BatAtVideoGames
>>
>>115340295
none
>>
>>115340298
being a cuck is extremely erotic
>>
Nyanners poster sucked off my BWC behind a macdonalds btw
>>
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>>
>>115340325
You just know this person is getting fucked daily
>>
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>we have realized that actually paying people to do their job motivates them to do it faster
lol
>>
what's the deal with the red bull spambot
>>
>>115340325
What's with this image?
>>
>>115340339
spambots feel like they are in good company
>>
what's the deal with the moriko spambat
>>
>>115340340
it's a spambot
https://archive.palanq.win/vt/search/image/g4Bmzx_qEcgwdL-yiZARWw/
but I don't understand what's its purpose
>>
>>115340337
I doubt the difference between volenteere and paid staff is the only reason it took some poeple 6h of standing in line to get into vexo
>>
>>115340356
Do you think Bat fucks with a white boy with a little bit of swag?
>>
>>115340337
>volunteers handling badges
RJ status?
>>
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please come back to us mello
>>
Nyanners could have been happily married like Vei or Saba, instead she chose to ride the cock carousel and become a hundred dong damsel
>>
>>115340372
Sleeping on the beach under some newspapers
>>
>>115340367
she exclusively does
>>
>>115340385
Isn't she with Aethel? Surely he'll wife her at some point
>>
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>>115340311
can't confirm or deny
>>
>>115340337
>>115340372
Yeah the volunteers were doing it for free to creep on females
>>
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How do you deal with the cognitive dissonance of wanting to support your oshi, but not wanting to be a simp who gives money to women on the internet?
>>
>>115340392
Aethel will not wife up used whore like Nyan.
>>
>>115340185
It's why I left every vtuber discord I was part of.
>>
>>115340391
I hope she doesn't mind an autistic NEET then, because I'm *just* her type B)
>>
>>115340392
why would she marry someone who can't get her pregnant?
>>
>>115340392
No one wants to put a ring on that slurs fingers
>>
>>115340414
You become a shizoanti
>>
what if I fucked beryl in the butt anal in the ass style
>>
>>115340414
You need to groom them
>>
where are these absolute newfags keep coming from???
>>
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Good times
>>
>>115340295
heavenlyfather
>>
>>115340414
Simple: the only vtuber I financially support in any way is my gf. (She's a 1view, nothing special, not a /lig/ga)
>>
>>115340414
Reasonable limits
>>
>>115340437
I'm going to find her and cuck you
>>
>>115340414
Theres other ways to support them. Draw fanart, make clips of them, do funny image edits etc.
>>
Okay how do you actually unironically get a girlfriend if you aren't rich or tall?
>>
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>>115340437
cute
>>
>>115340450
Pretty sure that’ll happen either way
>>
>>115340455
you find a desperate uggo
>>
>>115340455
By going outside, being around women and interacting with them and having a personality outside of "I watch vtubers and browse 4chan"
>>
>>115340098
Oh definitely post partum
>>
>>115340432
bvtm discord and parrot youtube comments probably
>>
>>115340450
I'd rather you didn't. Not that I think she'd cheat on me....
At least make sure to give her one more view and sub while you're trying!
>>
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>>115340472
>definitely post partum
>no kids
retard learned new word but didn't learn the meaning of it
>>
ngl I have more fun talking and shitposting in here than watching vtubers
most girls have grown stale
>>
>>115340455
Go outside and talk to people. Internet and porn really skews perception of couples. The vast majority of couples in the world are two not model attractive people
>>
>>115340295
>Jerk Off Instructions
I don’t need “instructions.” Trust me, I know how to do it. How about
>JOE
Jerk off Encouragement
>>
>>115340455
be kind and be around girls
also you have to be <23 and meet people at university
>>
>>115340498
Okay that was mean for no reason. I'm sorry
>>
>>115340503
Girls go post partum as they age #womensmentalhealthyear
>>
>>115340414
Your oshi should get 0.5% of the money you make
Half of 1 percent
>>
>>115340455
Boring, probably heard before, but honest answer: you work on yourself independently, like getting more social, fit and muscular, working on hobbies/jobs and then you just approach girls until you find one. Best advice I can give is don't take yourself or them too seriously until it turns serious. Meaning hit up a girl, joke around, ask her out, if she blows you off? No biggie, she was basically a stranger anyway, onto the next.
>>
>>115340516
have you ever thought about visiting a different board?
>>
>>115340536
What is this, zakat?
>>
>>115340536
You should be giving a monthly tax. On top of your membership. To your oshi.
>>
>>115340542
this advice is like telling kids to go out there and give firm handshakes in order to get a job
shit hasn't worked in decades, you are giving out outdated advice
>>
>>115340531
No harm done fren. I'm terrotial about this one, but I hope you find a vtuber gf for yourself!
>>
>>115340536
that's too much money
>>
>>115340536
Before or after taxes?
>>
Can i pay my oshi tax in produce?
>>
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2.88 MB
2.88 MB WEBM
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>>115340635
girls love sonic for some reason but they don't care about mario
>>
>>115340576
>shit hasn't worked in decades
Literally works constantly
>>
>>115340687
>girls don't care about the fat plumber
Brutal blackpill...
>>
>>115340635
This is not cute animals.
>>
>>115340687
Some girls care about mario, but you're right way more care about sonic and I don't know why. Maybe cause animals.
>>
there was a really cute girl in school named megan and she loved playing sonic and mario. she would always be playing on the ds lite on the bus and she asked for help with one part of super mario 64 ds. her fave sonic character was blaze the cat
>>
If I was in a relationship with bat, I would constantly be referring to myself as "The BatMan"
>>
>>115340687
Girls think sonic is hotter than a man. Simple as
>>
>>115340776
Did you fuck her?
>>
>>115340776
how did you fumble her
>>
Filian is a wonderful person who is worthy of love and support
>>
I still hate Layna for ruining Criken/Tomato's relationship, so fuck her
>>
>>115340615
After
>>
>>115340711
women love hot water but hate plumbers uh
what is sonic's job anyway, being fast is not a real profession
>>
>>115340794
nope

>>115340796
being oblivious
>>
>>115340811
That's roughly a T3 sub, I could do that.
>>
>>115340776
She is probably a chuuba now
>>
i was probably a senior and she was probably a freshman so maybe the taboo made me not move forward
>>
>>115340815
>what is sonic's job anyway,
He is a proffesional hedgehog.
>>
No woman will ever love you. You will never get married, you will never have a girlfriend.

These are sad, but true facts.
>>
>>115340864
>No woman will ever love you
My mom loves me :)
>>
>>115340860
Just stop thinking about what could be and look into the future.
>>
>>115340815
Women love the fastest creature alive but then apparently I "cum too fast"? Yesh right.
>>
>>115340196
that's the catch, the type of person who becomes a vtuber wants to settle down with a normie as a couterbalance, basically excluding 99% of vtuber fans
>>
Update: I planted 7 trees today
>>
>>115340864
yeah, probably



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