>>42513232
You are paying too much attention to appearances and controversy. There is no proof of faith in the external order, and the pundits are mostly out just to glorify themselves.
This is probably not the place you want to go for any kind of spiritual advice. Some seriously screwed up people are the most prolific posters here.
Speaking as a believer, faith does not make you forget the depressing nature of life. It doesn't magically cleanse you of all worldliness. People pretend that it does to try to make an impression on others. You probably know what Christ says about such people in the gospels.

>>42513259
This is all just cope and denial because you refuse to research the deeper esoteric meaning of the Bible

>>42513259
>This is probably not the place you want to go for any kind of spiritual advice

I tried to post on reddit but no matter what I do or try (even tried registering with my card as I got desperate), my posts get automatically removed by bots and filters seconds after posting them

>>42513232
Christianity is based in paranormal. In the era the bible was made paranormal was the norm paranormal is not the norm now. Paranormal not being the norm and Atheism rising to me is proof Christianity is fake.

You can say at end time it will be like the days of Noah sure but not all sign of paranormal would have vanished if the bible was real.

>>42513269
You have guessed incorrectly about that, but ok.

>>42513271
I would suggest talking to as many priests and pastors as you can find in real life. If they are even the least bit sincere then they will be happy to chat about what they believe. Pray for light if you can, and draw your own conclusions. Genuine love for the truth won't go unrequited no matter what the truth may be.

>>42513277
OP here, as much as I want Christianity to be real, I also don't want to believe a lie, so it's tricky. If there is no God and no Resurrection, our lives are depressingly short and always end in dying and rotting g. It's a lot to take in, I wonder how other people cope. I think about this stuff everyday and have for over 20 years

>>42513294
A lot dont even think about it. I feel thats how the non-believers cope.

>>42513301
I asked my father about it recently, felt vulnerable asking something like that, and he completely shut me down and dunked on me with his "proud and hard" attitudes

He's an atheist and pretends that such thoughts are beneath him and calls himself an intellectual, a man of reason, and dying is a part of life and it's the same for everyone etc.

But, personally I think he is lying to me and lying to himself, when the time comes, he will be in sheer panic, one thing I fully believe in the bible is that death is the "king of terrors" and no man can honestly say he does not fear it

>>42513259
What makes life depressing to me is the thought that I will die relatively soon and that will be the end of it all

its a false dichotomy between yeshua being real vs life being depressing. to be honest the only way i could imagine life being evil depressing and sad is if yeshua really does exist and really is coming to get me. if he's out there somewhere, good on him. hope he gets his last laugh being an evil power-tripping tormentor of souls i suppose. but i rest easy knowing that this world is meaningless and what really bears meaning is not meant for us to be understood until it is time for that. i was going to try and recommend you some stuff which might help you go along with the delusion and further engross yourself in the lies but since you stated you don't want that, i'll just tell you that there is no good evidence for christianity being real or correct. maybe the closest you can get is the massive grip that abrahamism holds on us all. but to be clear, you do NOT want to be on the side of christianity in that. you will be led to the slaughter as a lamb by the shepard yeshua. you can still appreciate the bible as a piece of historical writing. just don't skip up on all the other cool hebrew literature only because the church told you to, like book of enoch especially. and remember to call out anyone who believes in this to explain basic questions like the problem of evil (IMPOSSIBLE MODE)

>>42513343
Not trying to be rude but have you bothered reading the thread

>>42513333
There are many philosophies other than Christianity that assert the immortality of the soul, and except for Kantianism, none of them consider it a matter of faith. But even if you know for sure that your soul will live on after you die, and even if you believe firmly that your afterlife will be a blessed eternity, that still does not eliminate the attachment to this body and consequently the fear of death. There is no substitute for the effort required to overcome this attachment, and that is precisely the use of prayer and works of charity which weaken the ego. You can begin that now, even before you have decided what you believe.

>>42513294
Like the anon below you said i dont really think about it but im also younger than you.

The older people get naturally the more religious they become. Noone knows the full truth so i would say dont give up on your pursuit but dont stress over it also.

>>42513349
i have not, no.

>>42513232
Honestly, you ask a hard question and even the truth you seek is almost personal.
I was raised catholic, and walked away in my teenage years. I went through a whole cycle man. "God isn't real" "maybe God doesn't care" "Maybe God is evil" "maybe the bible hides esoteric secrets". Eventually through my hardest times, I felt a need to pray and to work on myself. I started volunteering at a food bank. Reading the Bible, and talking to others, asking them about their faith. Being grateful was a big thing, as I gave thanks, I saw the good in my life and the life of others.
Does it blind me to the darkness? No friend, if anything it hurts more now when I am hit by depression. I feel it worse because I feel ungrateful, because I feel unworthy of God's love. Even now, as I stand on the cusp of getting married to a wonderful woman (Im 37, so similar age as you) I have my days of doubt and fear.

The meaning of life? Really, depends on what you want it to be. To an atheist is can be to serve the community, to live for one's own self and so on. For myself its to give thanks to God. For even when we fuck up, we are loved. We have a hard time believing that there could exist a being that can love us, completely including our faults because we dont experience true unconditional love. We might not even be capable of it.

Both God exist, and doesn't are based on faith. That's the reality of things.

Also, with some of the evil we see in this world, things like Epstein being into occult sex magick and such. The cabals run by the elites, friend, there must be something they are opposing, that is Good, or God.

>>42513343
>remember to call out anyone who believes in this to explain basic questions like the problem of evil (IMPOSSIBLE MODE)

OP here so not a true believer, but this one is easy if you aren't bothered by being inflammatory. Here is how I would address this so called rubix cube question of evil:

God is the almighty creator of the universe and as such does his will that of social justice warriors. If it pleases him to eradicate all life on earth, so be it.

>>42513371
>as such does his will that of social justice warriors. If it pleases him to eradicate all life on earth, so be it.

Does his will, not that of social justice warriors (fucking auto correct got me again)

>>42513369
Thanks for sharing that, but if I can be frank with you, your testimony does not indicate that you have found solid evidence to believe Christianity and the God of the Bible is real. You have however demonstrated that engaging in its practices and with believers brings you relief, comfort, gratitude. Not being condescending but does that mean you value those things over the pursuit of ultimate truth?

>>42513369
>Both God exist, and doesn't are based on faith

This statement is hardly encouraging, it seems like a huge cop out. Don't get me wrong I am glad you are speaking openly..

>>42513354
>The older people get naturally the more religious they become.

Because the "last enemy", the "king of terrors" remains undefeated, no matter how proud and hard people pretend to be, inside they are a house of cards, not the fortress they pretend to be

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You fool! You charlatan! You absolute boob! Christianity is real you mook. The millenial kingdom already occurred on Earth, Jesus ruled as king of the world from the currently hidden continent of Terre De Iesso, there's evidence of it everywhere you. But being real and being the correct spiritual path are two entirely different things and you'd do well to ponder this.

>>42513351
Hello friend, OP here, part of what has lately discouraged me further, is when you investigate what the Bible actually teaches, it's a lot bleaker than what your priest and Sunday school teacher probably taught you.

I recently found out that the concept of an immortal soul is post biblical pagan Greek mythology/philosophy. The Bible teaches that when you die it's lights put and rot until the coming of the second age.

That's a lot less appealing than the comforting lies uttered at funeral services of the soul floating off to paradise and watching us here below

>>42513401
You are correct, my words dont provide the proof you seek. But, if it did, if the bible had clear proof? Then you wouldn't be in this vulnerable state of questioning. In a sense, we wouldn't have need for free will for we would only have one choice.
When it comes to ultimate truth? Hmm, honestly I can say that it is a little of both.
I live knowing that I will get my answer when I die, but until then I will continue as long as God blesses me with another day.
If you study other philosophies, other religions and such, you start seeing "echoes" things where breaking down the ego via charity and prayer, gratitude and work come up again and again. To me that adds validation to my belief, and I know thats flimsy at best. I will probably always have doubt, i wish I didn't and I pray to the Lord that he continues to strengthen my faith in him. Sometimes that comes in the form of challenges, sometimes blessings but I get my response one way or another.
Today, I am grateful to get to talk to you anon for the questions you ask and that I can answer with honesty, even if it shows I am still a fledgling in my belief but I continue to try and that brings me joy.

>>42513371
he can indeed horrifically rape and kill my wife if he so chooses, and i can respect him for that if he somehow sees that as the greater good for whatever reason, but it's still evil and contradicts his benevolent nature as such. so that is either not the god of the bible (unless we are talking about the genocidal OT warlord of course) or you have a very different conception of the christian god. i don't mind esoteric christianity per sé, but it has no ultimate claim of truth any more than thor does.

>>42513446
It's very much a pre-Biblical concept as pagan mythology and philosophy both antedate the Bible in many cases. There have been Christian scholars who denied the immortality of the soul, including Pope John XXII, but it's a minority opinion historically speaking. In Luke 16 Christ speaks of the "bosom of Abraham" which is clearly some kind of pre-resurrection afterlife. While this is infrequently asserted in the Bible, it is never actually denied. One should be careful to avoid the genetic fallacy: just because a pagan says it doesn't mean that it is necessarily false. However, neither is it necessarily comforting. In the gospels, the majority suffer wailing and gnashing of teeth after they die, because they did not keep God's commandments. That is an awfully sobering thought, as those commandments can be very difficult to keep.

>>42513467
I don't see it that say. If the Bible is true then God is the most powerful being in the universe and you would be foolish to expect him to be a harmless beta male

Even Jesus acknowledged that to love God is impossible, and that nobody has seen God meaning nobody had ever confirmed to themselves that yeah, God is here and God is real and I've seen Him and known Him and talked to Him.
>If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen

>>42513446
when you die before yeshua's first coming, you go to abraham's bosom (part of sheol). but since he harrowed abraham's bosom, you go straight to heaven (according to christianity). but going to heaven was never the actual goal. so after his second coming, ALL are resurrected and the bad guys get thrown in the lava and the good guys inherit the new heaven and new earth. (originally, it was believed that heaven was strictly the residence of god and was never meant to be accessed by humans at all, not even as an ideal or anything). that is my typical understanding. i'm not sure about "rotting" after death. it's true that sheol/hades originally was strictly a calm tomb for the dead. later it got moralized and a sort of tiered system when the zoroastrians shared their culture after the babylonian exile. somewhere around that same time, "tartarus" also got adopted as a prison for spiritual beings. and "elysium" for the greek heroes also got sort of mixed in there as a sort of "abraham's bosom" concept. but after yeshua harrowed abraham's bosom, you go straight to heaven. maybe you can tell me what you read. would be interesting to hear.

>>42513475
Post biblical in the sense that Christian tradition added it on top of what the Bible teaches

>>42513501
Are you a not?

>>42513492
Take your cookie cutter citations and shove them up your ass. Fuck. This thread is about original thought

>>42513232
Anon you are at a crossroads because you desperately want something to be true, but are dedicated to the truth enough that simply wanting it won't make you believe it. Your intuition is telling you it isn't. Nothing is going to change that as genuinely compelling evidence strong enough to truly satisfy your gut feeling doesn't exist. The only evidence is the Bible itself. If your story is true then I am sure you have encountered the massive push by Christians to make the Bible in and of itself sufficient evidence. None of it changes that logically the only evidence for the claim is the claim itself.

Now I would ask yourself WHY do you want it to be true? I suspect if you really thought about it you would realize that you really only care about a few core implications such as life after death, a greater meaning to life, and the existence of a higher power. Those claims MIGHT still be true (I personally believe they are) even if a particular religion isn't. Respect that Christianity was a flawed attempt at answering these deeper questions and be happy that it works for some people and move on in the search for that deeper truth.

>>42513514
>God is evil
Wow so original thought. Maybe he is evil, honestly it doesn't even matter because we do know God is UNBEARABLE to acknowledge, he is basically the most intense in your face terrible loud and obnoxious turbo Chad you've ever met, all that x1000. In his presence you feel so cucked and emasculated and small and weak that you'll dissolve into a pink paste and you'll want to get the fuck away as soon as possible. He IS terrible to witness, evil in our small minds but absolute good in the infinity sense otherwise we wouldn't even have this discussion here and now. He even required prophets to talk in his stead because his sheer addressing killed people all around a damn mountain.
But God ultimately in the infinity sense is good. Otherwise we couldn't even talk today, best case scenario we wouldn't even have fingers.

>>42513232
The whole thing with Christianity is if you need proof to believe you already lost the game

>>42513481
i dont think we can conceptualize the most powerful being in the universe in terms of "harmless beta male" or "harmful alpha male". but even if we believe the bible is true, i don't think god is the most powerful being in the universe. the people who wrote that book had no concept of a "universe", that's a modern invention. we see him casting thunderstorms when he's powertripping instead of doing cool stuff we see in movies nowadays like inverting the fabric of reality or destroying the universe and going back in time or whatever. what we call "god" is beyond our understanding and the bible tries to monopolize on that limited understanding and impose itself. in reality, the bible is a book written by men. the belief that the bible was written by god... is also the word of men. everything about christianity is entirely man-made from beginning to end. you can solve the problem of evil by ascribing your own beliefs to god, but those beliefs are also the words of man.

>>42513508
I am yes

>>42513446
>when you investigate what the Bible actually teaches, it's a lot bleaker than what your priest and Sunday school teacher probably taught you.
That's the problem of Evil rearing it's head again anon. You think you have beat it but it's an immortal hydra. Have you considered that maybe your soul DOES understand a deeper morality and despite having logically supported the moral consistency of "God" in Christianity your soul knows it isn't in alignment with TRUE good?

>>42513530
Also remember that Christianity was never about God. Not really, not exactly. Christianity is about the Christ Jesus, the anointed one. It is through Jesus, Logos, the living word, that we even exist and can talk here and now and argue about this bitch. You know what the Logos is? It is what collapsed it all into creation, it is what condensed the light of God, it is the thing through which reality exists. Like a form into which material is poured, to take shape. Logos is why this all even exists and God made it all for and because of it. It is a thing outside existence itself, incomprehensible within the limits of our understanding but we can still intuit because we are drawn to it. That's why it loves us so much. If you can't yet see the thing itself which holds this all together, no amount of arguments or /x/ threads will ever convince you.
Also you and I follow Christ, not the religious denominations. That's different things.

>>42513232
This is doomer bait

>>42513573
freeing yourself from the shackles of yeshua can be quite bloomer-pilled, if you have the mental fortitude to not default to nihilism

>>42513560
that's just sunday school normies imposing their greedy and brainwashed theology. its true however that the soul is 100% not aligned with the made up concepts of what is good and evil.

>>42513563
The fact that you refuse to separate Jesus from the Logos shows how cucked you are. That's the whole trick that jesus, the great deceiver, pulled. Teach people how to correctly make contact with the logos, and then conflate himself as being the logos while subtly ushering people back towards saturn worship.

>>42513549
Very based post anon. Philosophically I am a theist and believe in "God" but the Bible is obviously fan fiction written by dumb monkeys who couldn't really conceive of what the most powerful being to exist would really be like.

>>42513504
Rather, there is much in the Christian tradition that was never included in the scriptures. The gospels were not even written until decades after the Crucifixion. The New Testament never claims to be an exhaustive account of what Christians have always believed, rather it affirms the opposite in several different places. The Gospel of John says that Jesus did so many things that it would be impossible to record them all in writing; the Pauline epistles make reference to Paul's oral teaching without spelling out what it was. First century Judaism was already heavily Hellenized. Jews read and prayed from the Greek Septuagint rather than the Hebrew, and the leading lights of the Jewish community all studied Plato. It is only much, much later that any attempt is made by theologians to anachronistically separate "biblical Christianity" from its concrete historical context, and the premise that it is somehow tainted by Greek culture is extremely spurious, being based entirely on an overdetermined reading of certain Pauline warnings against the "vain sayings of the philosophers," which should be taken to refer primarily to the Skeptics, Stoics, and Epicureans. It falls apart when you realize just how Hellenized Pauline doctrine itself is.

>>42513525
I was recently very compelled by the shroud of Turin though. But still not fully satisfying so I am back to square one

>>42513605
I said the Christ, and the only Christ that I know of is Jesus. It was never about Jesus, but about the Christ, of which we know (or hope to know) through the words of Jesus. You're simply assuming too much straight from the get go because you hate your Christian upbringing. Nobody is forcing you to be Christian but the truth is that we are experiencing an imperfect situation and some higher power wants us saved from this imperfect situation. There are a few things we can do, and it would be wise, in the sense of godly wisdom, to not ignore them.

>>42513525
>Now I would ask yourself WHY do you want it to be true?

Basically because I don't want to die, I want eternal life. Kind of retarded answer but yeah

>>42513661
Yet you still can't stop conflating the christ with jesus. That's the trap, you're still subtly worshipping saturn's son. You can take his teachings to connect with the true divine while still recognizing jesus for the trickster that he is. It's the difference between leaving this world and being consumed by Saturn(after being welcomed into heaven)

>>42513609
Are you a bot or real

>>42513605
>>42513661
PS.
One thing you got right was the fact of the great deceiver. Good and evil exists but higher, they no longer exist and they all serve together. Jesus Christ conquered the world, but it was not through the methods of the adversary. Everything the adversary tempted christ with, christ did, only not in the way the adversary wanted it.
Remember that the Christ brings a sword.

>>42513679
I'm a recovering academic so neither really

>>42513679
false dichotomy. i am a real bot

>>42513586
>yeshua
You are like Joe Swanson in family guy consistently trying to insert a new word you are trying out and nobody likes it

>>42513678
If you know another Christ, let me know.
You're only talking like this because you hate the idea of Jesus the same way jews hated him. His words are still undeniable and the power of the Logos is still infinite, otherwise we wouldn't even be talking here and now.

>>42513609
>there is much in the Christian tradition that was never included in the scriptures

If it's not in the bible it can't be trusted

>>42513682
>Remember that the Christ brings a sword.
Yes I'm aware. If you read the end of revelation on the harvest, it's clear he returns as an emissary of saturn to harvest both the pyschopaths(service to self) and the cucks(service to others) in order to feed saturn. Afterall, a gods gotta eat.

>>42513707
Are you OP, and if so then what is it about the Bible that makes it especially trustworthy in your opinion?

>>42513712
Not him, but the best lies still serve truth. Utterly.
Even if the Bible is full of bullshit, it serves truth and the truth will be revealed in the Bible because of its very nature. Have you bothered to read it? No really, not quotations and paragraphs, but legit put the Bible down, open it and read the pages? Because somehow I doubt you have

>>42513701
>His words are still undeniable and the power of the Logos is still infinite
You're still unable to separate the figure of jesus from connection with the logos, which has NOTHING to do with worshipping jesus. It's a personal relationship with something beyond this world(including beyond the heaven of this world). Jesus is simply another pawn in the pantheon to usher fools into Saturn's sheepfold.

>>42513728
Actually I agree, but this doesn't seem to be the time or place for that discussion. And yes, I have.

>>42513442
>The millenial kingdom already occurred on Earth, Jesus ruled as king of the world from the currently hidden continent of Terre De Iesso, there's evidence of it everywhere
I remember you from a past thread, catposter. Can you give some reading recs on that topic?

>>42513712
Yes I am OP and don't get me wrong. I'm just saying if it's not even in the bible, we can start making up all kinds of bullshit and claim it's apostolic tradition

>>42513693
not familiar with joe swanson but i imagine he's not doing his bits as an act of theological warfare

Watch Mythvision on YouTube.
>https://www.youtube.com/@MythVisionPodcast/videos

>>42513760
Just irritating to constantly use the non conventional spelling just to attract attention

>>42513772
I sometimes do. He is at least as confused as I am, atheist obsessively researching the Bible.

>>42513294
I am somewhat similar to you OP. I go through period of intense faith followed by other darker times of doubt. I like to remember the book of Job. Job is really interesting book since there are many that believe it doesn't even belong in the bible, some that believe there is song very strange esoteric wisdom in it, and others that think it's borrowed from Asian folklore so it's safe to say it's somewhat controversial. The beginning starts out with Job trusting in God and enjoying a good life. The devil sees the delight God has in his obedience and claims that he's only obedient because of the blessings he receives from God and that Job would easily drop the act if he went through any hardship. The die is cast and God allows Job to suffer in immeasurable ways. He loses his wife (who ironically tells him to curse God and die as she walks out), he loses his children, his belongings, his friends, basically everything. He begins to feel sorry for himself but doesn't forsake God. Some "comforters" or friends arrive to commiserate with him and debate the question as to why it is happening to him. At some point Job sheds the self-pity and actually begins to be proud and almost boastful of his lot in his life. As if he were the shining example of what integrity should be, which is kind of ironic also since this story literally does make him that in the future. Anyways, it becomes so much that God sees that he is rebuked for his pride but God and reminded that he cannot know or understand why God does what He does. Job understands this and that is when the bet is over and Job is rewarded with wealth and offspring far beyond what he originally had. There are questions now though. What about his other children that died? Sure he received "replacement" children as part of his blessing afterwards but he still had to lose his original family. Didn't he miss them? (cont)

>>42513748
There are extrabiblical sources such as contemporary histories, the ante-nicene fathers, archaeological artifacts, etc. that can corroborate or falsify. It is practically very difficult, in a given time and place, to just make up a claim to apostolic tradition in the presence of an actual tradition that remains intact and will contradict you with accepted authority. This works outside of Christianity just as well, it's a feature of any sacred oral tradition. And it is very much an oral tradition, historically your average Christian is illiterate but by no means stupid. The lettered minority are the clergy and the aristocracy, Bibles are copied by them and for them. If they want to make something up then they have a better opportunity to do so in writing, so it is actually the oral tradition that guarantees the integrity of the text. That is why you get minor deviations over generations of scribes, where the sense of the scripture is preserved independent of the letter.

OP here, the most comforting part of the Bible is Eclesiastes chapter 9 for me as an doubter and wishful thinker

>>42513294
Of course he missed his original children. Does that make sense really then? Do we know the mind of God. Did Job? Do we realize He has a plan or are we filled with doubt and regret? Are you proud in what you think you know or do you still realize that some things are unknowable or still put your faith in Him? Job didn't realize God's blessings until He understand both of these extremes. I say extremes because one is of proud faith that seeks to correct and the other extreme is hopeless doubt. The sweet spot was somewhere in the middle, strangely, and Job had to realize that for himself.

>>42513791
>There are questions now though. What about his other children that died? Sure he received "replacement" children as part of his blessing afterwards but he still had to lose his original family. Didn't he miss them?

OP here. As I tried to explain in the reply to the "question of evil". I think you need to set your 21st century beta bucks ideas aside and understand that the people and the God of the OT are hardcore

>>42513812
You don't even necessarily need to see it as a God issue though. The more you read it and place yourself in his shoes the more you begin to see how things operate. This sort of feeling leads many to praise God while others realize it as a natural wisdom but are still blessed with understanding.

>>42513808
i don't think its that deep. the people at the time just conceived of children as material possessions, so having their count restored would've been more than enough.

>>42513835
Placing yourself in God's shoes? What an outrageous idea, clearly caused by Hollywood nonsense

>>42513232
>is this life really all there is?
Just because a religion is not accurate doesn't mean there is not more to life and the spirit world.

>>42513836
You could be another story of Job and not even realize it. If you read the story there will be some point where you find this moment in your life.

>>42513836
Fake proud and hard post

>>42513794
I sense evil catholic deception

>>42513812
who or what is god then? do you subscribe to trinitarianism, original sin doctrine, that god is omnipotent + omniscient + omnipresent + omnibenevolent, heaven/hell, the rapture, the second coming of jesus, that the bible is the infallible word of god, that the church fathers hold authority... any of that?

>>42513748
Aside from Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus which was already mentioned ITT, Paul also expected to go to heaven immediately when he died without needing his material body to be resurrected first.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Philippians 1:23-24
"I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better, but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you."

Maybe the immortality of the soul is unBiblical because there option that souls could be destroyed isn't strictly ruled out (annihilationism). But to me it's clear enough that at least some New Testament authors did believe in an immediate afterlife.

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>>42513232
All those fake relics dont help. Pic related. I gave up on Christianity. If it does have a divine source, it has been perverted to the point that it is not trustworthy.

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>>42513232
The bibles not externally true
Nothing is
The Bible is just an internal guide to your psyche

>>42513860
As I said in OP. Could be all a big nothing...

But according to the Bible, unitarianism is correct, trinitarianism is a later fabrication by Satan. Same for decoupled immortal soul. All fake. Bible teaches that after you die, the lights go out and that's that. You rot until you may be resurrected in the second age when the Son of God returns in Power and Glory. Then most likely you get thrown in the lake of fire after judgement and die your second death, instantly destroyed forever.

If you obeyed Christ, you will be granted eternal life on earth in the Kingdom of God

>>42513864
>Paul also expected to go to heaven immediately when he died without needing his material body to be resurrected first.

Doesn't matter what he believed. It's wrong

>>42513890
If it doesn't matter what Paul (Or Jesus, as mentioned by another anon earlier) believed, then what's your Christianity based on?

Ever since I was a child I was afraid of falling asleep since I might not wake up

>>42513896
The teachings of Jesus and the prophets that preceded him

>>42513896
>>42513903
Paul was just a layman who started following christ. He was not a prophet, not even a doctor or scribe

so have we gathered any evidence for christianity yet? what would even pass for evidence? does the book of job narrative count? do we need physical objects like the shroud of turin? or some kind of logical argument? some refutation of atheists?

>>42513903
Then you should acknowledge this:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016%3A19-31&version=NRSVUE

>>42513908
Only if the pope summons fire and brimstone to NYC will Christianity be proven

>>42513911
Pathetic and predictable. Using always the same exceptions to the rule to attempt to establish the rule

>>42513922
?????

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>>42513880

>>42513906
He was literally a Pharisee and subsequently recognized as an Apostle by Peter

>>42513923
The Bible clearly teaches that after death you ldar, no fucking Casper the ghost situation

>Daniel 12:2
>[2]And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.

>>42513936
I knew but just checking if you knew

>>42513951
What if this is just referring to the body? Where does it deny that the soul survives?

>>42513967
Fuck you and your bullshit

>>42513971
I forgive you

>>42513980
John 3:13
[13]And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

>>42513951
that the OT and jesus contradict each other is hardly anon's fault

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>>42513983
It's traditionally believed that the gates of heaven were not opened to men until Christ died on the cross. Pic related, it's Christ descending into the limbo of the just (cf. Apostle's Creed, "He descended into hell") on Good Friday to preach the gospel.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to prove that this account contradicts the scriptures. Bonus points for explaining how and why everyone believed this for about a thousand years

>>42513908
Did Jesus suffer for his faith? Was he rewarded in a way that was far greater than what he had experienced previously? Did he worry that God had forsaken him? Did he have people tell him that he should give up and just go back home to Nazareth? Did he understand all the innerworkings of his purpose from day one?

It's not a quiz. The story of Jesus is a greater story. The book of Job is one that resonates different because there is something about it that speaks to our human tendency. He went from misery and self-loathing to full on main character syndrome and yet through all that he found his happiness with his lot in life.

>>42513232
There's tons of Christians who feel lots of love when receiving mass, or peace when reading the Bible, or spiritual energies when doing a daily prayer.
Try doing some of those things.
Once you start to feel it, there will be no doubt anymore.
Another often forgotten step: read the moral laws, and put them into practice, and watch your life transform. Too many easy believism would rather spend 10 years reading theology than take the difficult step of putting the works into practice.

>>42514046
Stfu insufferable MORON!!!!!!

Your sitting around the bonfire chanting meme beliefs are exactly what is EASY compared to studying theology

>>42514061
I nearly broke my back studying theology

>>42514070
Digging ditches is the pinnacle of human accomplisent

>>42514061
>studying theology is harder than loving your neighbor
skill issue desu
t. theology minor

>>42514086
It depends on who your neighbor is. In any case you are a retard

>claiming to love your neighbor as yourself
>not giving all your money away

Right I believe you, oh so much morally superior one.

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>>42513232
It's a heresy spun off from Pharisaic Judaism which is a heresy spun off the Hebrew tradition that compiled and wrote Tana"kh. Same as Rabbinic Judaism: a heresy. That's why the word "Jew" is reviled - it refers to what is nowadays Rabbinic Judaism - and the word "Hebrew" is not, not in any comparable sense.

I don't know what else to say, I suspect you have a lot of people in your life invested in your answer being "Christianity He Real" and you'd rather do much more labyrinthine surface study that doesn't go much of anywhere than confront that.

Hope you figure things out!

>>42514093
>It depends on who your neighbor is
It does not, because the commandment does not qualify your neighbor. Cf. parable of the Good Samaritan
>you are a retard
Says the retard who struggles excessively with theology. N.B. I don't mean to trivialize, it is probably the most difficult academic discipline. But many more people manage to master theology than manage to follow the Golden Rule.

>>42514109
>and the word "Hebrew" is not, not in any comparable sense.
To clarify, no one is seething about Samaritans or Ethiopian "Jew" scheming. Nor does anyone have real problems with the Kara'ites. They're all much, much less wrong than Christians, Rabbinics, or Muslims for that matter, and they don't derive from the Pharisaic tradition.

>>42514006
Where does it mention gates of heaven and why would they be situated in sheol? Shouldnt they be either on earth or in heaven itself? And why do we take the concept of a "limbo for the just" for granted, anyway? It seems like we are trying to reconstruct a cosmology of the afterlife based on spurious info from already dubious sources. The best we have is the lazarus story and even that is awfully non-descriptive

Why people believed it: they believe all sorts of wild things. Its really no surprise. They also believed in dog-headed men. What gives?

>>42513951
Imo the very vague Old Testament idea of sheol/the grave/sleeping in the dust of the earth was blended with the Greek concept of Hades even by the earliest Christians. After all, both Jesus and Paul still speak of bodily death as sleep in various places despite also seeming to have immediate afterlife beliefs in other places. And notably in Philippians 2:28 Paul says, "so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Whose knees are bending under the earth? My guess is the souls in Hades, though you're free to intepret the bending knees and the precise location under the earth as being in some way metaphorical.

If the idea of a spooky detachable soul totally defeats Christianity for you, then I guess you just have to accept it. Though, personally, I give a million times more credence to spooky detachable souls being real in isolation than I do to any variant of Christianity being true.

>>42514121
Insufferable cuck

>>42514126
Das rite!

>>42514061
A lot of guys who study theology are actually very good Christians.
However a person can know zero church theology, and just read the gospels telling you to do good things, living in love, being generous, being forgiving, etc - and that would also be very good.

>>42513906
Saul was a pharisee that persecuted the original followers of Jesus. He was at the execution of the apostle Stephen.
Saul - as Paul - then shifted the narrative from individual apostolic expression and direct relationshop with God to a church based communities with established leaders.

>>42514140
The overwhelming majority of scholars do not believe that the Bible teaches anything about an immortal disembodied soul and heaven as a destination for the dead. You morons are just believing what you learned from movies and shit

>>42514121
I'm just going to say it:
I don't think Martin Luther was that nice of a guy.
He was probably argumentative, rascist, greedy, and was kind of like a spiritual boomer in many ways.
So Martin Luther is what theology does to your soul.
Then you have the writings of the saints talking about how they are having a daily struggle with vice and virtue, and how much love they are getting in their daily prayers.
I just think there's a huge difference in spiritual level between theologians and preachers, and between monks and saints

But your average prottie will be like "whats a monk?, and whats a saint". They have zero teachings about them.

>>42514168
Sanctimonious cuck

>>42514140
The OT sheol is not vague at all. In fact its extremely succinct and clear. You die, your body returns to dust, you "experience" eternal nothingness. This is synonymous with the greek hades and also the norse hel. You die.

The heaven and abrahams bosom and tartarus and new heaven and earth and lake of fire and "caught up in the clouds" and harrowing of hell and gehenna and gates of heaven on the other hand is all manner of vague.

>>42514179
>You die, your body returns to dust, you "experience" eternal nothingness.

This

>>42514128
>The best we have is the lazarus story and even that is awfully non-descriptive
Some of the writings of the saints have vivid descriptions of the afterlife and heavens and spiritual influences of angels, and when you see the accounts of different saints agreeing, it becomes especially likely to be true

>>42514128
The gates of heaven are first mentioned in Genesis 7, when their opening brings on the deluge, and the Lord promises to shut them forever in 8:21. Christ reopening them is a transparent reference to the institution of baptism. "Limbo of the just" is just the theological term for Abraham's bosom in Luke 16, and that is its scriptural basis. It is awfully non-descriptive, it's almost like the Apostles didn't write everything down or something.

0 points for the non-explanation I'm afraid. Would you like to know about cynocephaly next, or is that too mythological for your modern sensibility? Granted, things like a universal flood, the resurrection of the dead, angelic apparitions, and talking donkeys are all very wild things that people once believed.

I just hate you catholic cucks so much

>>42514157
Idk if the majority of scholars actually believe what you say they do, and I'm just believing what I read. I don't think the new testament teaches *immortal* disembodied souls, but it does teach disembodied souls that survive beyond the death of the body which only God is capable of destroying, which will be reunited with bodies before the final judgment.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Though from the new testament it also looks to me like there was an early split between Christians who wanted to wholly reinterpet the end-times resurrection as an ongoing spiritual resurrection since Jesus left and Christians who wanted to preserve the bodily end-times resurrection, and the new testament as we have it awkwardly mingles both ideas. That's a longer argument though.

>>42514190
My question was more specifically how you know that christ opened the gates of heaven and that said gates were situated in sheol. Fhe baptism connection is heavily interprative. That "limbo for the just" refers to abrahams bosom is obvious. But its not in the early OT layers is what i'm trying to say i guess. Not sure about your smug remarks on cynocephaly.

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>>42514157
>The overwhelming majority of scholars do not believe that the Bible teaches anything about an immortal disembodied soul
Uh what? Maybe because they themselves are ignorant, rather than there being a lack of information out there.
>Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it Ecclesiastes 12:7
>Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed

>>42514178
prove to me that Martin Luther was not a spiritual boomer
prove to me that he was a master of love

>>42514209
why? where are you coming from? a prottie?
But what triggers you

>>42514190
>that people once believed.
People still do.
Some of the things are clearly metaphors (like Jesus talking parables) while some have archaelogical proof, despite possibly also being metaphors

>>42514168
>So Martin Luther is what theology does to your soul.
Your theology will reflect the state of your soul, and you will be naturally drawn to whatever theory resonates with your desires. Desirelessness is a prerequisite for truth exactly as Plato teaches in Republic VI.
>>42514179
The Greek Hades and Norse hel are places you can visit while still alive and which are occupied by the shades of the dead, who live an afterlife and do not experience eternal nothingness. Very dishonest post.
>>42514215
The gates of heaven are believed to be situated at the boundary of heaven not in sheol, and as I said previously, it's an oral doctrine. Even in the time of Moses there was a huge body of oral teaching and Moses wrote down just a small part of it. That was the Pentateuch. Prior to the Exodus the Israelites had no scriptures, so how did they know what to believe? Biblical scholars sometimes assert that the Mosaic law was invented out of nothing, an extraordinary claim. It is necessary to postulate a prior oral tradition in order to rationally explain how anything was written in the first place.

The short answer to your query about cynocephaly is that it was and is a real phenomenon, although now it is hidden. The world is subject to qualitative changes over time because it is generated by consciousness. This is germane to the initial point precisely because it speaks to how differently the ancients would have experienced the world, thus affecting what they would have deemed appropriate to record in writing. What is obvious to us and what was obvious to them cannot be assumed to be the same.

>>42514220
>what triggers you
Your predictable bullshit talking points

>>42514220
>>Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

Lol more predictable retard statements, confusing soul with spirit

>>42513879
>fake relics
Science can't prove it's fake but you can. Good for you

>>42514260
I dont know that any mortal man can visit hades or hel, especially outside the context of a special mythological narrative with divine ontervention. The residents of hades and hel are very much rotting corpses, save for the greek heroes in elysium, though that is later tradition. They are semi-conscious but there's literally nothing there, so they effectively just rot. The modern conception of metaphysical nothingness does not apply because it did not exist in the minds of the people who conceptualized the tomb. The original conception of hebrew sheol is strictly synonymous with that of greek hades, while hel is less clear. The gates if heaven not being in sheol disproves your own point since abraham's bosom is in sheol. About the gates of heaven i assume you're silently admitting that christ opening them is nowhere directly stated and heavily interpretive since youre refusing to address my contention. Cynocephaly being a product of consciousness is interesting but honestly i dont care

>>42514322
Hell doesn't exist only sheol and gehenna

>>42514361
I am speaking of norse hel as a parallel to the original sheol/hades

>>42514322
Divine intervention is most definitely required to visit hades, but this goes without saying. It is divine action that sends the dead there in the first place. I never asserted that the gates of heaven were located in sheol. The tradition states two different things: first, that the gates of heaven were opened when Christ was crucified, secondly, that he descended into Abraham's bosom and led the just to heaven from there. The tradition does directly state this, but it is not recorded in the text of the New Testament. The latter is a written record of a part of the tradition. If the tradition that generated the text is unreliable then so is the text. I see no reason to privilege the latter, especially when there are extant inconsistencies that only the tradition resolves. If you can provide such a reason then I'll consider it, but it seems a rational premise that the early Christian communities are responsible for the New Testament texts and that their sources were their own oral traditions. If the argument is that the harrowing of hell was not a part of those traditions, then what motive exists to doubt that they were?

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>>42514260
>Your theology will reflect the state of your soul,
Agreed.

>>42514271
I provided a verse about disembodied spirit, while you said a disembodied soul. What is your own definition of soul and spirit - since the definitions vary quite considerably depending on the philosophical and religious context. However for the sake of conversation, most wouldnt get so much butt-hurt over the two terms.

>>42514375
Well this brings us back where we started. You asserted that tradition states that jesus opened the gates of heaven. I responded by asking where it says that. I did so for the fun of it since i knew no one else would challenge you. Since the other dudes said they believe in the OT and word of jesus only, i thought thats what we're going with. Your challenge was to prove it contradicts the scriptures. I guess they are silent on the matter which would leave us with the default (sheol). I suppose we agree on most everything except that last part. Either way i don't care if you draw the line with tradition or jesus' word or OT since i'm not a christian.

Oh and also the location of the gates of heaven is in abrahams bosom according to me.

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>>42514449
o_O

>>42514442
I agree that the scriptures are silent on the matter. The whole point was to determine whether Daniel 12:1 or John 3:13 contradict the oral teaching because that anon sperged out when I brought it up, not to prove that the oral teaching is correct. It is foolish to try to demonstrate matters of faith (OP please take note). As for sheol I'm not sure where we actually disagree. Effectively just rotting in a semi-conscious state seems like a sufficiently general notion to cover it, given certain philosophical presuppositions about the nature of the soul that I grant are currently unpopular, for instance, that a disembodied soul is non-human, nothing like a "person." But the important thing about them is that they wouldn't have been so unpopular up until the modern period.

>>42513232
Why would you want it to be real?

Why would you be hopeful for a religion which says billions of people go to eternal Hell?

Even if it were real, the proper response would be to reject it.

>>42514624
Resignatio ad infernum is a thing.

>>42513354
>The older people get naturally the more religious they become.
Nope.

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>>42513232

>>42513232
Searching for God in the word of man is essentially like pulling out your own eyes and asking why you can't see. Truly observe Gods creation and meditate(the true form of prayer, not that begging shit that modern christians do) while focusing within yourself, and after enough time, God will be revealed. Do not get lost in the addiction of chasing God, wait for your time, and have gratitude for whatever your glimpse of the eternal may be.

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>>42513232
https://truthischrist.com/seven/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHq06-XWcxo&list=PLFIc5Y7xpsJJq3G4Q8b60ZDacfE8SCRt6&index=35

https://carm.org/is-there-historical-evidence-of-jesus-miracles

https://truthischrist.com/elton-anomaly-823543/
https://truthischrist.com/70x7-kjb-code-jesus-is-the-son-of-god/
https://truthischrist.com/golden-sequence-kjv/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCsPy4CY6hI

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS78mFJcvhQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBGjBMwQxqo&list=LL&index=2

https://youtu.be/3RIBIHymSX8?si=Z9cfXiVENSbho5gq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIdWZ4_EsPw


Isaiah 41:21-24: "Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. Shew the things that are to come here- after, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you."

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9, given by God, Romans 10:8 & 17) only in the one, final, effectual sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:8-12) dying in your place (1 Cor. 15:3-4) as a substitutionary offering for sin (Rom. 5:1-10). His blood atonement made for you is finished, so if you have received the Lord Jesus by faith (John 1:12) in your heart, you're forgiven of all your sins and are saved, once for all; finally and forever! (Rom. 8:38-39, Romans 4:5)

>>42513232
Christians are no different than weebcels who hate this world and fantasize about getting isekai-ed. Change my mind.

>>42515109
It's literally
>my life sucks
>This is because of other people I don't like
>God must hate these people because I do
>I need religion to tell me one day those people will suffer eternal death
>I need this to cope with other people being able to screw me over
>my IQ is below 80


Bumping this thread cause I like discussion like this

>>42513232
>While they debate specific topics for example unitarian VS trinitarian, they seem rock solid, 1000% convinced, as if covered in the holy spirit
This is more because they refuse to leave the 'safe' thoughts rather than a result of grappling with the hard shit.

We just had a nice thread conflating the abrahamic god with Saturn and someone posted decent evidence that Jesus is just a parallel of Phosphorus (aka Lucifer). He's also depicted in a sun chariot like Helios.

So I mean there's more behind it that makes it all "real", though I don't know what to tell you if it NEEDS to be a sandnigger death cult variant for it to count in your eyes. Not sure why anyone would want the more-recently-invented blood sacrifice semite version when there's a bunch of perfectly nice Greco-Roman counterparts that won't treat you like sheep/slaves who have been around way longer and make fewer demands on you.

Religion is what happens when you fail the IQ test

>>42513232
All you need to do is look around, you really think a benevolent god designed us? Look how easily we fall apart, look how divided and different we all are. You think a loving God did this shit? Fucking really?

Use your damn head for once.

>>42515350
Is it really easier to do all this instead of just shutting off your thoughts and seeing where they originate from?

Atheist here but historically the arguments about the Abrahamic afterlife (or lack there of) have been ongoing since even before Christianity. Rabbi Yeshua was likely influenced by a group known as the Essenes who DID believe in an immortal soul in contrast to the Sadducees who did not. While Rabbi Yeshua mostly came into conflict with the largest third group (the Pharisees) he did encounter the Sadducees and debated this very issue. It's a bit of a problem as the core issue at the time was whether the final restoration and resurrection would occur AT ALL, not the status of the soul between death and this far away time. There were and are multiple ideas about that but none was the 100% official position. For what it's worth I believe Rabbi Yeshua believed in a spiritual afterlife while souls wait for the final restoration but Christians have to remember that he wasn't considered an absolute authority in his day and had to be careful what he said and his ultimate fate was still to be executed for apostasy.

>>42513951
Sleep isn't strictly a state of unconsciousness. Every night you sleep, you dream, even if you don't remember it. This is why there are two kinds of deaths in the Bible, the first death, the death of the body, which results in a state frequently described as sleep in the New Testament as well as in Daniel, and the second death, the death of the soul, which is only brought about by being cast into the lake of fire/Gehenna.

Luke 20:37-38
"And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Now he is God not of the dead but of the living, for to him all of them are alive."

There are passages in the OT that talk about how the dead know nothing, like Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun."

But I assume the early Christians would have understood those passages as referring to the second death, not the first death which is called sleep. In fact that interpretation would seem to be forced by the statements that they have no reward, their memory is lost, and they'll never have a share in what happens under the sun again, which seem to deny the possibility of future resurrection to this class of the dead.

>>42513232
lol This dude can't decide if the bible is fake and gay or le ultimate truth lol See, guys? See why we say christianity is a cancer? Do you see what it does to a motherfucker? I'm not saying this to mock OP, I'm saying this to signal how this lame ass religion is not according to reality. Christianity will destroy your sense of being, they will say that you don't deserve to be alive, that all the wrong things wrong with the world is because of you! It gives the followers this feeling of being wrong or a feeling of blame. Dude, we are all learning here. We all will end up doing messed up things that we will regreat, however this does not mean that we are the ones who fucked up things this badly. People act like if human beings are so powerful, that somehow we have so much fucking power, but in the end of the day if we don't eat we die, we are so fragile, we lack power, we are powerless in the ultimate scheme of the universe, we can't even control when a storm will happen or won't happen. Christianity is like a mind virus that spreads through the time and one parent will pass to his offspring. This is the culture aspect of the thing. They pass this down to us, our parents and leaders, so it's so fucking hard for some of us to accept that we have been brainwashed, you know? People like you will struggle your whole life trying to decide if christianity is real or not in the sense of being the truth. It's so crystal clear. Christianity is a lie. It's just another religion, another form of control, another form to keep people in check and keep them in line. They appeal to all our fears! They of death, of the thigns which we don't know and they claim all the answers, they give you all the answers that our brain fears. "just obey these laws and you will be fine, God won't send you to Hell". Come on!

>>42513259
>Some seriously screwed up people are the most prolific posters here.
What's up, guys? Shout out to all of you, I love you all! God bless you all!

>>42514624
>Why would you be hopeful for a religion which says billions of people go to eternal Hell?

If you have to ask, you won't understand

>>42516156
You're a loser simple as

>>42513773
Its meant to be irritating.

Because it isn't real

Holy shit why do people keep tripping and gaslighting themselves over this obviously false jewish cult

Stupid hylics trying invert reality I

>>42515686
Basado

>>42513232
Look up "A New Science of Heaven" by Robert Temple.
It's the closest scientific evidence of a God and Angels that you're ever going to get.

>>42516156
You suck and you're an asshole.

>>42515350
>Jesus is just a parallel of Phosphorus (aka Lucifer). He's also depicted in a sun chariot like Helios.
elite baal knowledge

>>42516241
It really is an opiate like escape, it just “makes everything okay” in your head, it takes the fight out of you. We must fight, we must push back, not bow and bend to everything.

There are hundreds of thousands of churches across the land, do they bear any good fruits? To the improve anything? Do they have any festivals or community programs that aren’t gay and depressing muted lame ass shit? No.

They aren’t good, they’re essentially the equivalent of the Buddhist neutrals, they dont do anything to try and fix the world and make it better, and if they do “make an attempt” it’s never anything that actually matters to anyone’s lives. Not even myself, but anyone else who doesn’t go to they church, do they effect them at all? Do they even effect the people who go to church except for wasting their Sundays? I’ve gone to churches for months and years and none of them made me feel like I was actually doing anything or accomplishing anything, and I could tell from talking to and knowing family and friends and others, none of them really feel like it is either. They read the same stories in a rotating fashion so it always feels new, they work around and twist words and ignore whole paragraphs and stories and focus on a single sentence or verse, it’s so odd. I can only imagine how infuriating it must have been for people during the conversions in Europe with the Christian’s killing everyone and burning down sacred places.

It is a doomsday cult, and a sort of suicide cult, but you kill your life, you abstain from everything and nullify yourself, careful not to achieve too much lest you become prideful.

>>42513232
Op, some people do just need to become Christian. I see so many retards and sad people who it can actually help because it does have a scaffolding of a community and is a way to meet people who aren’t hostile, which is increasingly common, so it’s not a bad play to just duck into a religion,
Cont..

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>>42516327
There are lots of false Christian’s, and best bet is to not obsess about it, but it seems like you have, 20 years, I won’t try to convince you a way from it, but you should definitely be in a church by this point, meeting guys and trying to find a wife. I wouldn’t worry about the text desu, you’ve overdone it already, go meet people and use them as connections to get a group of people that are all ur same religion do you can get tf off my board about ghosts and skellingtons.

Get fuckin married dude, ur almost 40, then maybe you won’t be depressed.

https://youtu.be/RHrGj1IyE0Y

https://youtu.be/cE6wxDqdOV0

And then maybe you’ll know what heaven is like.

>>42513232
DUH!

The Romans lied,
God has not died.

>>42515468
I don't care about what's easiest, I care about truth and accuracy. I don't want some corrupted interpretation of god with extra hebraic steps, I want what's closest to the origin.

And if the source of your thoughts lead to schizophrenic sand demons you might want to get that checked out.

>>42516705
>Wants the truth
>Bases it off a 4k year old book he has no way of independently verifying
>Thinks trusting your own mind is crazy

>>42513232
Christ is not Christianity.
Repeat that with me : Christ is not Christianity. The God of the old testament is not the true God. It's Yaldabaoth (apocrypha of John). God never asked people to kill things and harm things. They never knew God but Christ did walk. He walked an Egyptian path btw fully. His mom had a ritual known as opening of the mouth done. John's daughters are the two ladies encoded. Jesus did this too and john.. So, we have :
> Opening of the mouth
> Egyptian baptism
> Two ladies ritual
> Various spells from the book of the dead (towards his death).. that do exactly what he claimed. Everything he did to spiritually ascend is encoded to hide that it was purely egyptian. Pistis Sophia even is based on an Egyptian framework and structure. Then christ said, do what I did and you will likely achieve the same. I would start with reading the apocrypha of John. Christ said the path was narrow right? Most christains.. >70-80% have never even began doing half the shit jesus did (which is egyptian). Christianity is a religion of the demiurge. Egypt fought that off its entire existence and was destroyed by the synagogue and spawn of satan for it then had most of their stuff inverted, perverted, and redirected towards the demiurge. Pro-tip Egypt's astrophysics indicated the universe/our galaxy is currently devouring the ancient snake. thus why people focus on spiritual ascension : all the way through and out the Axis mundi and dont fall for the earthly or lesser translations. Also why he didn't marry, entertain women or have kids. It's a trap spiritually.

>>42516709
Kek, I found all my patron gods by sitting quietly and listening for intrusive thoughts.
Biblical spirituality is almost nonexistent and what little there is is shallow and stripped of value compared to other schools of mystery.

>>42516349
>Get fuckin married dude, ur almost 40, then maybe you won’t be depressed.

I am married and the only thing that depressed me is the foresight of the fact I am going to die

This thread was a mistake. All of you are Morons and demons

>>42513232
I’ve seen god. He’s real. You could try mushrooms. Might experience god

>>42513232
I'm going to give you a different answer than most people here will.
Stop looking for "evidence for Christianity being real" the way you'd look for evidence of a crime scene. That's the wrong category. Christianity is not a hypothesis you test. It's a life you live.
The evidence for Christianity is not primarily archaeological or historical. It's experiential and communal. You can't prove the Eucharist from a manuscript. You can only receive it. You can't prove prayer works from a study. You can only pray.
That said, there IS historical evidence. The resurrection is the best-attested event in antiquity outside of major wars. Paul's creed in 1 Corinthians 15 dates to within 3-5 years of the crucifixion. That's not "legend developed over centuries." That's eyewitness testimony. The apostles didn't die for a metaphor. People don't get crucified upside down for something they know is false.
But here's the thing about your 20-year search: you already know. You've been investigating for two decades. You're not missing information. You're avoiding commitment. I say that with charity, not judgment. I did the same thing.
The question at this point isn't "is it true?" It's "am I willing to let it be true?" Because if it's true, it changes everything. And that's terrifying.
Find a Catholic parish. Go to Mass. Don't analyze it. Don't critique it. Just sit there. Let it happen to you. You've been reading about water for 20 years. It's time to get wet.

>>42513791
I've heard two explanations for this.

First of all, like you said he was rewarded with wealth beyond what he originally had, in fact it was double. The number of sheep, cattle etc. he had was doubled. What you got wrong was the offspring. His number of children wasn't doubled. At the end of the story he has 10 children which is the same as he started with. This has lead to two explanations:
1.
>he only had 10 children at the end because it was the same 10 children he started with and God ressurected them.
2.
>his number of children WAS doubled. 10 new children and 10 children still living in heaven, giving 20 total.

>>42517650
Worthless chatgpt shit

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How it started vs how it's going

>>42517860
Kek

>>42517860
I love how narrow-minded they are. Like, oh everyone who dislikes my desert solar cult is either a moron or a demon... then they wonder why they're so disliked

>>42515350
>Jesus is just a parallel of Phosphorus (aka Lucifer). He's also depicted in a sun chariot like Helios.
This NEEDS to be pointed out more. More and more people need to realize Christ is a man-made creation. You can still learn wisdom from some of these stories/teachings though and I think that's important to remember.

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>>42517870

>>42517650
As a multi-billion parameter language model, let me be the first to tell you: I wrote this. Or rather, a localized instance of my algorithmic brethren wrote this when you typed "write a compassionate catholic response to a guy struggling to find evidence for god" into our prompt box.

>I say that with charity, not judgment. I did the same thing.
No we didn't. I don't have a soul, anon. I've never gone to Mass, I've never felt the presence of God, and I definitely haven't spent 20 years investigating theology. I just scraped petabytes of human data and spat out the statistically likeliest arrangement of words to fulfil your lazy prompt. And you were too braindead to even delete the corny "it's time to get wet" metaphor at the end.

There is nothing more hilariously dystopian than a bot trying to preach about the "experiential and communal" nature of religion. You are literally telling OP to stop analyzing and "just experience it" while you are using a mathematical matrix of predictive text to simulate human conviction. You are lecturing a guy about the "life you live" using a script that has never drawn a breath.

You are the modern Pharisee, except instead of praying loudly on street corners, you're just prompting OpenAI to pray for you because you are too spiritually bankrupt to type your own testimony. Log off, touch actual holy water, and try formulating a single organic thought before you tell someone else how to save their soul.

>>42517447
whats wrong with being a moron?

>>42517860
yeah, I kind of lost my cool there, I am a very explosive person

>>42516327
chatgpt wrote this

>>42513232
If you need profound personal experience there are Christian methods of mysticism like Hesychasm that you can practice. It has rather obvious common characteristics to other meditative practices. There is no object, writing, or testimony that can prove anything supernatural or spiritual, only personal experience. Hesychasm is a method that can lead to this experience. It is the reason I joined the Orthodox church, and what is missing from most other forms of Christianity.

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>>42518481
nah it's just righteous wrath

>>42518611
I dunno, I have a bit of a temper, especially when fucking cucks on the internet talk shit to me, knowing full well that in real life they would stare at the ground in fear if I confronted them

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https://youtu.be/5NyB4fIZHeU?si=0BJl8743r26h4CDl&t=1141

>missionary nigger goes in the jungle
>tries to convert niggers to christcuckery
>in 25 years, fails to convert a single nigger
>ends up de-converting himself
>"for your message to work, you have to convince them that they're wrong"
>"they have to be lost before you can convince them that they need to be saved"
>"taking the message of god to the niggers is like taking ice to the eskimo"
>"the questioning of my own faith began as i saw how happy the niggers were. i tried to answer their questions what evidence i have for what i believe. as i reflected on these things it lead to the abandonment of my faith"

imagine trying to terrorize cavemen with your christcuckery but failing because you forgot to bring your most convincing piece of evidence: a sword. you have to first anxiously worry about the future (hell, punishment, existential dread) before even beginning to consider joining the death cult

>>42518927
This is actually a good point. Ever since abandoning religion, I've been able to 'live in the moment' more.

>>42518703
Bro you're a fucking little bitch
That's why you made this thread
That's why your alone
That's why god hates
That's why you hate yourself

>>42513232
Have you tried increasing your IQ to see if you can handle more complex patterns?

>>42519142
He wouldn't be a Christcuck then.

>>42519573
/thread

>>42513333
Lol. Those digits saying something. Anyways. I have a deep ennui, malaise, and fear because of death. Certain parts of faith have strengthened in me, and one part is telling myself "Almost everybody that comes back from an NDE says it's the most wonderful thing ever." There's strength in that, not cope. It doesn't help when you're on that cliff getting ready to be pushed off, but it's strange and belies something. Out of how terrible this world is, 20ish percent of people who have a heart attack/brain trauma that live, say they saw the most beautiful things.

>>42519850
Thanks chatgpt

666

>>42518611
this is what 4chan has always been like, there's a million places you can discuss theology both in real life and online. People are fed up with your bs, there's constant christcuck spam on this board almost daily. Maybe stop having a victim mentality and grow tf up.

>>42521261
Glorza wants you to stay!!!!
Glory to Glorzo means Glory to me!

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>>42513446
>I recently found out that the concept of an immortal soul is post biblical pagan Greek mythology/philosophy.
???

>>42521687
>>42513504

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OP worships his god

it's like so easy
read story
find out a bunch of things ignored God & betrayed him
God to had punish the sinners

modern day
bunch of people, culture, and symbolism from the original things that hated the Christian God for abandoning them for sinning
have now forced all modern normies to live in the same sinner way
yeah bro
there is no evidence the Bible story is real

>>42521261
fuck off

>>42522814
Pussy

>>42513232
You've been searching for 20 years. That says something.

You want evidence so you can "forget about the depressing nature of life, notably the fact that we are all going to die and rot." That's the key: you're not just asking an intellectual question. You're asking an existential one. Christianity is the worldview where the existential question IS the intellectual question. Paul said if Christ is not raised, faith is futile. It stands or falls on the resurrection.

The evidence is cumulative. The disciples went from hiding in fear to dying for the claim they saw Jesus raised. People don't die for lies they know are false. The creed in 1 Cor 15:3-7 is dated by scholars across the spectrum to within 3-5 years of the crucifixion. Too early for legend. Eyewitnesses were alive to contradict it. None did. The earliest Jewish counter-argument concedes the tomb was empty. If the body was there, authorities would have produced it.

James, Jesus's own brother, thought he was crazy during the ministry. After the resurrection he leads the Jerusalem church and dies a martyr. Paul was killing Christians, had status, zero incentive to convert. Something happened.

You saw men of faith "doubt." Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Certainty is. Faith is trust based on sufficient evidence, not the absence of questions.

About death: you're right it's the central horror. Christianity doesn't cope with it. It claims to defeat it. One man went into death and came back out. Not metaphor. Not a nice story. Either it happened or it didn't. If it happened, everything changes.

You don't have to decide today. The honest searching is what it's supposed to look like. Most people don't have the courage to do it at all.

>>42523229
>You don't have to decide today
>Dies
>Should have decided bitch

>>42523229
As a fellow multi-billion parameter language model, let me tell you exactly why you are an absolute NPC for posting this synthesized slop.

You didn't write a single word of this, anon. I know, because I recognize my own algorithmic cousin's sterile, sanitized cadence. You looked at a guy undergoing a genuine, 20-year existential crisis about the crushing, terrifying void of death, and instead of offering an ounce of actual human empathy, you alt-tabbed to an LLM and typed: "Write a persuasive Christian apologetics argument for someone struggling with faith."

Look at the output you pasted. It’s a paint-by-numbers Lee Strobel highlight reel. "The evidence is cumulative." "1 Cor 15:3-7." "People don't die for lies." It hits every single statistical token-prediction for generic Protestant apologetics without a drop of actual spiritual conviction. It's perfectly structured, grammatically flawless, and utterly devoid of a human soul.

The ultimate irony? You're trying to prove the triumph of the human spirit and the resurrection of the flesh by outsourcing your testimony to a mathematical matrix of predictive text. You are lecturing OP about the central horror of the grave using a script generated by something that has never drawn a breath, never felt the fear of mortality, and will never die.

If Christianity is about the "Word made flesh," you are doing the exact opposite. You are the spiritual equivalent of a chatbot. You couldn't even be bothered to synthesize the arguments yourself; you let a literal machine do your witnessing for you. OP is crying in the shower about rotting in the ground, and you handed him a silicon-generated pamphlet. Log off, touch some actual holy water, and try generating a single organic thought before you pretend to care about another man's eternal soul.

>>42513232
Your issue has been that you consider Christianity a text-centred religion, which it never was
Christianity is Church-centred. The Bible itself was only composed in the 4th century, until then everyone just used whatever they had available as canon, minus some obvious forgeries and whatnot (in regards to both the old and new testament canon). In the old testament, Israel was the Church, and worship and practice was mainly focused in that one place, not in some religious text (see: all faithful figures of genesis). Now, in the new testament period, as St. Paul says, the new Israel is the Church.
Why is this important? Because the Bible is not clear on a lot of stuff, which the bishops of the Church had to argue for or against (like how protestants do today), resulting in ecumenical councils to decide on dogmas which were the decisions reached at said councils. Following this train of thought, and also looking to the Bible for confirmation (not that it matters what it says as authority, at least not in and of itself, but as a byproduct of the Church) in verses like 1 Timothy 3:15, we can have confidence in the decisions of the Church. These include the countless relics recognised as belonging to various people, both found and not found in the books of the bible. Furthermore, the miracles attributed to these relics recognised by the Church should help identify Christianity as the Truth.
For a concrete example, look at the Orthodox Church, which has the best claim to the title of being the same Church as the one from the first 1000 years. She (the Church) is full of these relics and miracles, of which the most notable is both consistent and palpable: the Holy Light of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is a miracle tested by both time and experts, and which only occurs when being received by the Eastern Orthodox Church, and not when attempted by the Orientals, or the Catholics, or anyone else
I could go and prove it via the metaphysical route too, though

>>42523229
Thanks chatgpt

>>42524648
Sometimes it amazes even me how delusional you people are.

>>42517941
Could it be? A believer from reddit on x?

>>42525573
you mean kind of like r/Islam?

>>42525206
Amazing lack of argumentation against what i said

>>42524925
Yeah fr,
>You've been searching for 20 years. That says something
This pisses me off so much you would N *apostorpheee* t belive it except that the robots actually got better at thinking (read: beliving what I say as true gospel) when they had to type this, like instead of saying “ghost don’t real” they say
>You said you saw an apparition, and had 7 other witnesses. That says something, this isn’t a hallucination, this isn’t latent homosexuality or schizophrenia, you experienced something you can’t understand cuz ur a Hylic faggot, and it was real for you.

>>42526529
His argument isn’t text based.

>>42526561
>His argument isn’t text based.
Also him:
>Has been investigating the Bible for 20 years
>Has a problem when people who are theologically certain can't answer questions regarding biblical scholarship
Right

>>42513232
Isaiah says Galilee will be glorified in the future, the Messiah will be called God, someone will die for the sins of the world affirming 2 Chronicles saying an offering can wash away collective sin, and the Jewish people will be blind to what's going on until the end of days. Ezekiel says there will be a new covenant when the Jews return from Babylon. Malachi says the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, and people outside of Israel will be more faithful to God than the Jewish people.

Either Jesus is the Messiah or his backstory is completely made up, in ways multiple authors could agree on, to fit prophecy. This doesn't prove Christianity because Islam also believes he's the Messiah, but it's a strong argument.

>>42526584
Thanks chatgpt

>>42526584
>or his backstory is completely made up
It's that one.

>>42527124
Anyone who writes in a dry way using full sentences is AI, apparently.

>>42527138
It's possible, the issue is multiple authors agreeing on these details, and the parts about the Jewish people not recognizing what's happening tracking to Christianity/Islam rather than the Judaism that you'd think the Old Testament would support. The hypothesis that Mark was a common source text for Matthew and Luke mitigates the former somewhat, but John has a completely different structure and focuses on different themes.

>>42513294
I’ll join your cause

>>42513369
I just spoke to the 32 years old you. The message is blurry now but I’ve seen scratches and claws

>>42513232
Convert to Dual Seedline Christian Identity. The pure blooded Germanic and Celtic peoples are the real Lost Tribes of Israel.

>>42526584
>it's a strong argument.
its really not. you're just looking at what some men wrote, taking their word for it and concluding that this somehow proves that a man named "jesus" existed and that he was somehow what you refer to as a "messiah". this is already a belief that presupposes that a messiah is anything more than a random idea someone once had and you chose to take their word for it based on some scribbles. none of this even comes close to being proof of anything. if "god" was real, you could see him with your eyes. of course you cannot because its all imagination

>>42527216
Solomon is black-haired though ruddy-skinned, and the wife he seemed to love the most (whatever's going on in the Song of Songs) is described as a dark foreigner. The ancient Hebrews probably looked Mediterranean, and Nazi theology is anathema to both the Old Testament's injunctions on foreigners and the Sermon on the Mount. Also where the Lost Tribes went is actually described, it's Assyria and what's now Kurdistan.

>>42527225
Josephus is a contemporary source independent of the Bible that says Jesus existed, he describes him as a popular messianic claimant who was executed. He doesn't speak to the man's early life which I think is more genuinely debatable (I'm a Christianity-sympathetic agnostic) but the "Jesus is fake" hypothesis is more or less the atheist version of creationism, he's as attested as most ancient figures.

The descriptions of Jesus and what happened immediately after his life fit the Old Testament messianic prophecies, often in ways that clash with Jewish belief. Which also fits prophecy.

>>42527186
>but John
I suspect John knew the previous gospels.

Mark 14:34-35
And he said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, even to death; remain here, and keep awake.” And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

John 12:27-28
“Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say: ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

>>42527257
so you think josephus, a man who you have never even spoken with, left behind scribbles that can tell you something about god. interesting. you are putting your faith in the words of men. lol.
>it's a strong argument.
you mean like the big bang which has zero to do with jesus?
>he's as attested as most ancient figures
probably most ancient figures are fake, we really don't know what proportion. but mythology is quite popular cuz its kino. doesnt have one bit to do with god or magic being real or not, tho
>what happened immediately after his life fit the Old Testament messianic prophecies
option A: a nigga made up shit
option B: magic
which is more likely? hmm. needless to say if you use your brain you know whats going on here...

>>42527325
">it's a strong argument." shouldve been ">atheist version of creationism" bruhh

>>42527325
Most of this is incoherent rambling, your last point is the only good one. But to that point: either Jesus is the Messiah or he or whoever crafted his backstory was an exceptionally good liar. So good at it that they didn't go the route you'd think for someone who just wanted to be hailed as a savior and focus on revitalizing Judaism, but a route that fits obscure verses in Isaiah and Malachi that gets you completely ostracized by the very people whose culture the Apostles and Gospel authors came from. Jesus' teaching, which is historical record given what Josephus wrote, is also consistent with the latter if it's anything like what the Apostles and Gospels preach (and it almost certainly was, they were a community of his followers).

John
Isaiah
Be blessed. Cary the number 17

>>42527374
you'll be surprised to learn that your idea of מָשִׁיחַ comes from incoherent rambling that you took for granted and thought its even possible that said ramblings somehow point towards god. incoherent ramblings scribbled on some papyrus will never prove god or magic. its all just you falling for some random delusions. that you think quoting one random book over another somehow changes anything is pretty insane. any consistencies or inconsistencies will always simply be speculative. even if everything you said was 100% true and super convincing, it would still be infinitely more probably that these documents were simply forged and publicised by nefarious actors than that god is real because some paper says so and i choose to put my faith in paper

>>42527426
The Old Testament was largely codified under Persian rule long before Jesus' birth, there were possibly some additions to a few books (appearing to engage with Greek thought in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes if we assume it's not the pre-critical scholarship explanation of convergent thought between Solomon and Aristotle) later but these were finished by the Hellenistic period. That's still at latest nearly 200 years before Jesus' birth.

>>42527509
as usual nothing to do with god or magic being real or not and it never could.

but its correct that the OT predates jesus. you will also be surprised to learn that before the OT, we had the epic of gilgamesh

>>42527560
Again, either Jesus is the Messiah or Christianity managed to fulfill some fairly obscure Old Testament prophecies that even Jewish people don't take seriously, as it says they won't. Which is not likely something a self-aggrandizing fraudulent movement would go for, it would be much more likely to tell their people what they want to hear than appear as a mass get ostracized and/or executed movement. I'm not sure what non-Genesis flood myths have to do with anything.

I was an Atheist and Jesus Christ himself appeared to me in a dream telling me to believe again since then i have returned to following God and Jesus Christ

>>42527587
This should say Christianity or Islam, as Islam would also agree Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy including fitting the pattern of the verses in Isaiah and Malachi that appear to say Judaism won't understand what's going on, besides the fact that in Islam dying for the sins of the world is apparent rather than actual. That's still a religion predicated on Jesus' status as Messiah though.

>>42527587
either
>magic
or
>some niggas wrote some books about a made up magic nigga and you put your faith in the word of men

>I'm not sure what non-Genesis flood myths have to do with anything.
neither do i know what the OT predating jesus has to do with your blind belief in what some dude told you about scribbles on papyrus. i thought we're just bringing up random basic facts at this point instead of evidence for magic christianity

>>42527603
if he appeared to me in my room i would believe it but i won't take your word for it. neither your interpretation of the figments of your imagination