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>>42590316

>>42590316
Super natural shit is real, also pretty easy to test if you're inclined to, I wouldn't recommend it though your life will likely get significantly worse from doing so.

Our current logic framework is flawed imo, it's based on models of reality most of us never test or verify and we just assume they're true and then use them to explain what we see. you should try to start manually testing things you take for granted and see where it takes you.

You're living in a time where elites are funneling everything they can into some digital beast system and/or creating some digital demigod/demon/anti-christ. Look harder honestly, I don't think access to spiritual information has been this accessible in a long long time

>>42590316
>We incarnate because our Soul selfishly wants to use our human "avatars" for exploration and lessons or be apart from God, no matter how much we hurt and bleed. And once we die, we just get absorbed and they move on to their next interest.
Brother if you identify as the shell instead of the ghost how could you ever hope to find a satisfying explanation?

>>42590341
Test if inclined to? guh?

>>42590437
I identify SO MUCH with not being a shell that I find the state of being a "shell cuck" on Earth unbearable. But I want to remain free and not get absorbed by a 7 dimensional autist who cares nothing about human pain and just uses me/us for its own exploration desires.

Freewill of thought

>>42590316
Good theodicies for God exist like archon abandonment theodicy i think you should give them a chance https://benthams.substack.com/p/the-archon-abandonment-theodicy?utm_source=publication-search

>>42590445
If you did proper meditation you'd know pain is nothing. It exists purely in the body and the mind floating in its sea of tranquility can observe it with absolute detachment, given enough practice. Even emotional pain is illusory.

>>42590596
Literally just meaningless semantics in practice for 99,99% of people who aren't batshit crazy.

If I came over now and poured acid over your face, cut off your arms and legs, you wouldn't be like "Heh this is nothing cuz I meditate I don't suffer at all right now"
If you had a wife or daughter and she was raped in front of you, you wouldn't be like "Yup 0 emotional pain right now cuz I meditate"

Just shut up seriously this is so goofy.

>>42590511
Thank you for posting but this also doesn't make sense to me. Again it just applies human logic and human limitation to an omnipotent or at the very least universe-creating God.

>>42590620
The concept that Gods are real but they are powerless (or uninterested) to help in meaningful ways is also depressing, so it doesn't help much either.

>>42590629
God and you both have a mind it’s just an unlimited mind in his case and I do not believe logic or morals come from God but they are recognized by him

But yes
the argument assumes:

There are archons.

Libertarian free will is right (otherwise the archons would just help us out).

Objective list theory is true.

The archons for some reason don’t make their existence obvious.

The world absent archons is filled with enormous gratuitous suffering rather than merely being absent in certain goods.

The world absent archons doesn’t appear to be presided over by any agents.

God for some reason needs us to be in actual danger rather than just having the archons believe we’re in danger.

Each of those is unlikely like maybe a 2/3 chance but combined it could be like a 1 in 2000 chance but that is still more likely than an atheist universe that is finely tuned with conscious psycho physically harmonious beings

>>42590629
Also combine it with other theodicies like soul building or souls consenting to be incarnated as a chicken on a factory farm before being born and intrinsic goods like relationships with friends for eternity and stuff

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>>42590316
I've given you guys an explanation, the correct one, over and over and you shitters don't listen. If you actually connected directly with god instead of endlessly speculating with your useless human brain you'd actually understand how reality works.

>>42590658
>>42590647
Literally what prevented God from creating us and making us a comfy paradise where he took care of us and loved us.

>"free will!!!"

Ok, anyone who doesn't like it could leave.

>>42590693
https://youtu.be/-qxEB5tZPDk?is=pg5sAU2kEXKRxFzU

>>42590693
Well ironically he actually may have and you just consented to leaving the paradise and being incarnated on earth with your memories from before birth wiped.
Why would you do this? Perhaps to make some new eternal friends on earth where there is danger suffering divine hidenness etc which makes good deeds and virtue and whatnot meaningful

>>42590707
Then I would ask why is God so evil that he creates souls that he knows won't be satisfied with perfect beauty and want to enslave incarnations into cycles of suffering? Why would God not make you and me beautiful and peaceful and satisfied instead of giving us seeds of restless retardation?

And the me on Earth isn't the same being that was in paradise. I would never agree to this bullshit.

>>42590693
>Literally what prevented God from creating us and making us a comfy paradise where he took care of us and loved us.
He literally did you flaming muppet. This world(and the heaven and hell of this world) is separate from that paradisical base reality. We come here to grow and take form. If you ever manage to return to base reality, you'll no doubt pick another world to grow and develop, and so on and so forth.

>>42590722
>God is so retarded and weak he can't make a soul grow and take form and be satisfied without incarnating into goy slave wagecuck pedophile hell

Ok buddy.

>>42590720
Because you should not let perfect be the enemy of good. Without stakes like suffering risk divine hiddeness etc how can you be brave? If you’re never in any actual danger? Do you want God to make fake danger? Shouldn’t he be honest? Whatever suffering in this life is like a stubbed toe compared to decades of true love that will be our afterlife.

You are the same soul, just like after waking up from a coma or general anesthetic and before you were born you had all the relevant facts so you could make an informed choice

>>42590747
Like I said, I don't agree with projecting human limitations onto God. Because the human brain evolved in a specific way to SURVIVE where we developed boredom to keep going and stay alert for problems and danger.... why would this shit apply to God and his children? God, if he was omnipotent, could just snap his finger and decide that we are 100% satisfied and brave without danger. It simply would be so.

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>>42590316
>Has anyone found an explanation that makes sense AND makes them happy?
Yes and yes

You seem to be operating from the lower levels of the Pit, I'd say at about the level of Grief (Depression/Sadness) because at that level pretty much everything may seem sad or depressing.
Perhaps I can help you get to a higher level by showing you the map:
https://youtu.be/IzBqzwFjsc8?si=31VDhSVlhMvLHNrK&t=288
Climb it one level at a time and maybe you can get out of the pit

>>42590735
The point is that universes like the one we're in are separate from the ever harmonizing light of god. This one specifically teaches you how to connect to the divine at all times like a lifeline so that you don't become permanently stuck in other realities that are far more entertaining and alluring than this one. You're a massive whiner for a guy stuck on the tutorial level lolol

>>42590775
Gold wizard

>>42590753
But the relationships you forged on earth would not actually have been forged through actual suffering and risk and stuff, youre asking God to lie and implant false memories? I don’t think that would be the best of all possible worlds so we must suffer together and make real friendships through real shared suffering

Also I think you should study some philosophy or theology PhDs because God actually can not make 2+2=5 and yes he is still all powerful all knowing and all good https://benthams.substack.com/p/why-i-think-the-problem-of-evil-is

>>42590775
Just imagine how retarded your image of God is if you really think a being like that was unable to create you perfect from scratch and instead had to "teach" you things by letting you incarnate into a monkey body with literal shit coming out of its ass several times a week.

You have no logical explanation as to why God didnt A) make us perfect with all knowledge and lessons from scratch or/and B) simply found a way to teach us all the lessons he want without suffering.

"B-BUT U NEED PAIN TO LEARN!"

According to your human monke brain?
Is God limited to your limitations too?

>>42590778
Why do relationships need to be forged through suffering and risk? God can just decide that it's not needed and that we are perfect from scratch.

>because God actually can not make 2+2=5
He can if he's omnipotent. He can't if he's not. Omnipotent means ALL powerful and nothing is impossible. If God can't overcome things that are illogical to humans then he can't do everything.

>>42590785
No because God does not get to decide what is moral or immoral or what’s valuable or not, relationships are an intrinsic good and would still be an intrinsic good even if God did not exist, btw philpapers survey shows most professional philosophers including most atheist ones are moral realists

Begin with the paradox of omnipotence. This is often somewhat quippily summarized: “can God make a stone so heavy that not even he can lift it?” If one answers yes, then it is supposed that he is not all powerful, because he cannot lift the stone. If one answers no, then there is something that he cannot do.

I have never considered this a very forceful argument. The theist doctrine is not that God can do what is logically impossible, for what is logically impossible simply cannot be done. To say God is all powerful is to say that there is nothing he cannot do for lack of power. It is not to say that he can do that which cannot be done, even in principle, anymore than a person who says that zero is a maximally small non-negative number errs, on grounds that one could imagine logically impossible numbers smaller than zero. As Lewis puts it “Nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.”

God is, by definition, a maximally powerful being. This means he is as powerful as any being could be. But no being can make round squares or make rocks that God cannot lift. So this is no limit on his power, anymore than it is a limit on the size of an infinite universe that it is not larger than itself. Being larger than an infinite thing is not the sort of thing that one can be. Being able to make a rock that God can’t lift is not the sort of thing that one can do.

And while I can make a rock that I cannot lift, I cannot make a rock that God cannot lift. The general prohibition on the impossible rules out stones that God cannot lift.

>>42590802
So the "logic of relationship" existed before God and dominates God?

>But no being can make round squares or make rocks that God cannot lift

Says who though? Again that is just what your human brain comes up with. Why can God not make both even if it makes no sense to you right now?

>>42590834
You should really humble yourself a bit and listen to the consensus among relevant professional philosophers because “God can make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it” is not a good argument for atheism at all

Logic is not invented by humans it is discovered just like math and morals, philpapers shows most philosophers of mathematics are mathematical Platonists
>>42590834
Because epistemology and prior probabilities

>>42590781
>Just imagine how retarded your image of God is if you really think a being like that was unable to create you perfect from scratch
He did. And he created you as perfect too. Perfect doesn't mean omnipotent or all-knowing. If I look at a perfect sunset, it doesn't mean that the sunset can backflip up 2 story buildings like neo and do everything conceivable. It means that the sunset is perfect for what it is.
>"B-BUT U NEED PAIN TO LEARN!"
Yes, in order to grow and evolve, you need to step away from the father and become independent, even if god is still always ready to step in to help. When you're in base reality, the light of the divine permeates everything, entropy does not exist, everything is maintained continuously in a perfect state of harmony. You don't evolve there because you exist in a constantly maintained ideal state(for what you are i.e. the sunset example.)

>>42590850
I am not saying you are wrong. I am just expressing that it doesn't make sense to me. But I'm just a random person.

You say logic is discovered rather than invented. Okay sure. But if logical truths exist independently of God and even God cannot violate them then logic appears to be something God is subject to rather than the ultimate foundation of reality. It just assumes that logical possibility is a higher standard than divine power.

>>42590854
You are not perfect if you need to incarnate into really embarrassing and painful situation to get to the state you desire. Then you have been created LACKING and God is very weird for not offering much smoother and less degrading solutions to get where you or me want to be.

>in order to grow and evolve, you need to step away from the father and become independent

This is not true if God is omnipotent. Then God lays out how reality works and what one has to do. So God could simply decide you would NOT need to step away from him to become independent and learn all you would need to learn. If God is not all-powerful, sure then this might be the case but that's not very helpful for me to know either.

>>42590861
>that sunset isn't perfect cause it's just gonna change into something else >:(

>>42590964
I mean if you actually looked into near death experiences people would say that things like the sunset on Earth is ugly and boring compared to what it looks like in our true home, so yeah thanks for proving my point.

>>42590629
>Literally just meaningless semantics in practice for 99,99% of people who aren't batshit crazy
Au contraire, the vast majority of people practice techniques to reduce their suffering, whether they really frame it as such or not
Depressed people do the opposite and amplify their suffering

>>42590316
Have you considered the possibility that your hopelessness stems from your hopeless and futile task of trying to understand something you can't?

Take it down a few (dozen) notches and apply yourself to the basics of leading a good life. Knowing your limits has perks.

This world has gotten so bland and boring to me, I'm getting back into Satanism to engage with demons and have some actual fun interesting things to do again.

All of the low IQ slave NPCs walking around just make me so depressed. I'm nothing like them, and idk how the fuck i got here to this shit planet.

I could design a world and society so much better than this bullshit.

>>42591003
>I mean if you actually looked into near death experiences people would say that things like the sunset on Earth is ugly and boring compared to what it looks like in our true home, so yeah thanks for proving my point.
I mean, that proves my point if anything lol

>>42591080
If the sunset and what comes after or before are described as ugly/boring once a person learns the truth, then it's not really perfect because it leaves much to desire.

>>42591009
You would need to be insane to watch your daughter or wife get raped in front of you and come to the conclusion that you aren't suffering or feel any kind of pain because you have practiced meditation in the past, is my opinion.

>>42590316
>Nothing supernatural is real.
The opposite can be proven easily from public information and no rituals etc as >>42590341 implies.
As for the other stuff... You're pretty free to believe anything : ) truly "proving" it however should be impossible. It's chaos out here and order is very difficult to establish, especially when words are your tools.

>>42592382
>You would need to be insane to watch your daughter or wife get raped in front of you and come to the conclusion that you aren't suffering or feel any kind of pain because you have practiced meditation in the past, is my opinion.
Yeah you sure beat up that strawman

>>42592544
"Strawman"

It's literally the point you replied to.

>>42592560
No, but anyway look in the mirror bruv, you're in love with negativity and a slave to ego. Does that really seem like the correct play to you? Do you think such a mentality increases or decreases suffering?

>>42590316
i believe i have the best understanding of the nature of suffering in the world. Basically anything that isnt head on facing suffering as the worst most tragic most avoidable highest priority is not viewing suffering correctly. if you have preferences and are vulnerable to preference negation (suffering) then its impossible to deny the inherent badness within suffering. You cannot prefer to have your prefrence negated, this reaveals the paths to escape suffering. etheri become like a buddisht and removeyour prefrences, or change the world to fit your prefrences. This explanation becomes satisfying when you realise this will eventually result in the elimination of suffering universe-wide because there isnt actually any morrally relevant distinctions between the suffering of one and that of another, so any advanced enough civilisation will nessecarily work to reduce suffering as much as possible, and it is possible. maybe not today or tomorrow, but i bet you a suffering free world will exist. You have seen how noone can give you a satisfying explanation for suffering, now recognize that is because suffering is bad and work to reduce it.

>>42590854
>Yes, in order to grow and evolve
You do not need pain for that, retard

>>42592569
And how is a person obsessed with meditation and how "ego-less" they are not obsessed with their egos desire to be seen that way?
>Do you think such a mentality increases or decreases suffering?
Pretending that people can just meditate through their loved ones being raped or abused and feel nothing is absolutely not helpful either or only if you are INSANE, which was the point I made. 99,9% of humans will not be able to pull this off nor would they want to.

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>>42591050
>All of the low IQ slave NPCs walking around just make me so depressed. I'm nothing like them.
you npc sheeps wouldnt get it.. not capable of deep and smart thoughts like me heh.. what a shitty place with everyone just trusting mainstream media such low IQ.. in this moment i am enlightened by how special and not like the other humans i am heh..

>>42592592
People are entirely cucked and brainwashed by this obsession anything necessary for survival as a mammal must also be necessary in higher realms of existence. They can not imagine a reality beyond the evolutionary machinery that shaped us down here. Pain, boredom, struggle are treated as eternal necessities that even GOD can't work around instead of treating it what they actually are: biological adaptations that evolved on Earth to keep organisms alive long enough to reproduce.

Of course we get bored down here or "need" struggle to stay on our toes, because we are living in flesh boxes dealing with wild animals, disease, competition and shit like that. But why would this apply to GOD or divine formless beings.

>>42592569
>Do you think such a mentality increases or decreases suffering?
not him but i despise this mode of thinking, it's completely feminine. we should not think things because of how they make us feel, we think them based on whether they are accurate or not, if the world is negative then we must acknowledge it as such. the accuracy of the meaning of ideas will always to me triumph whatever suffering they may cause me.

Happiness is for chumps...
Joy is where it's at...
Joy in nothing most of all...

All religion is bullshit concocted by energy beings that look like water AKA the holy spirit (or living water) in the bible, the truth is we're just here and there are forces trying to give us meaning, whether that be energy beings or our own minds.

>>42592604
>vax
I wouln't call normalfags humans, they are more like some dumb evil like goblins ore lovecraft fish people

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>>42590316
>posts the Princess
>doesn't even know about pataphysics
You can change the existence yourself

>>42592706
>you can change existence!
>yet existence is still riddled with pain and pedophiles and struggle
Yeah good job, bro.

>>42590316
Your problem is you seem to think “all-powerful” means God can make contradictions true, such as giving created beings the goods of courage, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice, and freely chosen love without any real vulnerability, limitation, or history.
God can do all things that are truly possible; “make a square circle” or “create free love that is not free” is not a thing too difficult for God, but a non-thing. Nonsense does not become sense by adding “God can.”

“Why can’t God make courage without danger, mercy without misery, forgiveness without offense, sacrifice without cost, freedom without the possibility of misuse, created beings without limitation, and real love without vulnerability?”

Because most of those phrases are just square circles. Because you are asking for created persons without creatureliness. You are asking for finitude without finitude.

Despair is not wisdom. It is a parasite that flatters you by calling itself realism. It makes you feel too smart for every answer while quietly shrinking your world down to a coffin.

>>42592725
Why would God be limited to the human concept of contradictions aren't logical to exist at the same time?

All of the concepts you have in your mind right now of what makes sense only make sense and only exist because God designed it this way. If I made a video game I could program the characters in a way that they believe and experience complete freedom without the ability to rape children. You are telling me God isn't able to pull that off?

>>42592725
if god cant enact contradictions, then he is governed by logic. did he create the logic that he is governed by? What differentiates logic from the laws of physics and thermodynamics such that god must follow logic but not physics? also op pls reply to my post >>42592591

>>42592591
Well I agree with what you said and pic related (somewhat) but it doesn't really offer a way out that feels good to me. I don't want to become an autistic buddhist who feels nothing and just meditates all day and I don't think we can ever end the suffering. Yes, I think we should help and make the world better 100% but ultimately pain is hard coded into the fabric of reality. Decay, time, carnivores. I don't see how a suffering free world exists unless you become God.

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>>42590316
> there is no satisfying explanation for existence and how painful it is
if you were a rock or a tree you wouldn't worry about pain or death, right?

And if you were a snail, you might see a battlefield where a human would see a peaceful garden.
So you care for human-problems because you are a human, but that suffering doesn't have to mean the world is inherently bad.

There are no suffering particles, so otherwise same experience like going to the dentist might be agony to one and the deepest fetish to another.

It seems to me there is no trap the soul/mind has to escape. rather, the mind itself is the trap.

>Honestly don't know what to do but wait and die.
Liten to rain. take a deep breath.

>>42592766
suffering cannot be ended? you are just assuming that beings potential caps out before defeating decay and time. you are justified in being skeptical that suffering can be eliminated, but you don't have evidence against that, just our current limitations. lets actually say your right and entroy (decay) cant be stopped. That just means that a certain minimal level of suffering must exist, would a micro spec of suffering being necessitated really negate the extreme goodness that is possible and incoming? any suffering existing doesnt feel good to me etheir, but its a 1000x times better way than anyone else has offered you ill bet

>>42592739
Logic is not “above God.” Logic is rooted in God’s own nature. God does not “obey” logic the way a human obeys traffic laws. God is not subject to some external system called Logic™. Rather, logic describes the intelligibility of being itself, and God is Being itself, not one object inside being.
So when I say God cannot make a square circle, I am not saying “aw shucks, God ran into a stronger law.” I am saying “square circle” refers to nothing. It is not a difficult task. It is not a task at all. It is noise dressed in grammar.

Yes, you can program NPCs who “experience” whatever you code them to experience. You can code them to believe they are free while removing any possibility of meaningful refusal, but then you have not created free persons, you have created freedom-flavored puppets.
A creature who can only choose the good by programming lockout is not morally free in the full sense. It may be innocent. It may be harmless. It may even be pleasant. But it is not the same good as a person who can truly love, truly refuse evil, truly sacrifice, truly forgive, truly remain faithful, truly become holy.
God didn't make freedom without the possibility of evil because that is a theme park ride, not freedom.

>>42592766
Physics is the pattern of this created universe. Logic is not one more physical law inside the universe. God can suspend or alter physical regularities because they are contingent features of creation. But “A and not-A in the same respect at the same time” is not a physical limitation like gravity or entropy. It is the collapse of meaning itself.
If contradictions are allowed, then your own complaint evaporates. “God is good and not good.” “Children suffer and do not suffer.” “Rape is evil and not evil.” “You are hopeless and not hopeless.” Once contradiction is admitted, your argument no longer condemns God. It condemns nothing, because every sentence means its opposite too.

>>42592791
>So you care for human-problems because you are a human, but that suffering doesn't have to mean the world is inherently bad.
but being a human isnt escapable so if the thing that generates the badness is inherent then how isnt the world inherently bad?

>>42592791
>So you care for human-problems because you are a human, but that suffering doesn't have to mean the world is inherently bad.

But the animal kingdom is way more fucked up that the human "kingdom"... just see how wild animals struggle with parasites, wounds, starvation, rape, constant stress compared to animals supported through human care. Maybe the stone and particle kingdom doesn't suffer. But plants struggle and feel too, as far as we know at least.


>>42592793
Do you plan to genocide all carnivores? Even fed carnivores have instincts of killing or playing with prey.
Do you plan to genocide all selfish humans or not allow them to breed anymore? How would that be enforced?

>>42592796
>Logic is rooted in God’s own nature.

If God is like a human and unable to change his own nature, then he is not omnipotent. An omnipotent God can wake up tomorrow and decide to change its nature into whatever it feels like. Unlimited.

>I am saying “square circle” refers to nothing. It is not a difficult task. It is not a task at all.

BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT WITH YOUR HUMAN BRAIN.
Your human brain concludes that this task is nothing because it is logical to you, but who even came up with that? If God came up with the laws to be like this literally what stops God from changing it and birthing a world in which a square circle is something real and not nothing?

>>42592796
nice differentiation of physics and logic. but this is a massive flaw >God didn't make freedom without the possibility of evil why is freedom independently good?

>>42592815
your thinking is too limited on this matter. with technological advances anything is possible. obvisouly eliminating suffering is not possible withg our current capability. thats why we must work for our capability to be increased. humans cant be selfish when they realise there is no meaningful distinguishing one beings suffering from anothers.

>>42592825
How do you think technology is going to take care of carnivores and selfish people?

>>42592829
i dont even know how a lightbulb works, i cant describe to you a technology that doesnt exist, but i cant outline the sort of thing it will allow for example mindless flesh bots fot carnivores to hunt. the capability for selfishness can be removed when you have acsess to others prefrences and their negation. you can want both vanilla and chocolate ice-cream is that each part of you being selfish? when people see themselves and their own desires like you view a desire in your own mind selfishness becomes impossible.

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>>42592802
you can't escape being a human but you can recognize that not everybody is.

I love strawberry ice cream but I don't think that makes strawberry ice cream the best flavor in some higher sense. it's just the interaction my senses have with the ice cream.

>>42592815
>But the animal kingdom is way more fucked up that the human "kingdom"
animal might suffer and try to avoid those things, but it doesn't curse existence for parasites. And if it did it would be just fine for the parasite! There's nothing wrong with this situation until we declare it such.

I don't think there is ultimately anything wrong with becoming sick or dying.

>>42592815
>in which a square circle is something real and not nothing
“God can change His nature” sounds profound but it means “Truth can become false, Good can become evil, God can become not-God.” That is semantic acid. It melts the words you need to make your own complaint.
If contradictions can be true, then “child rape is evil” and “child rape is not evil” can both be true. “Suffering matters” and “suffering does not matter” can both be true. Your accusation against God dies instantly.

>>42592819
Freedom is good because love is good. Not “freedom” as in maximum degeneracy-options, but freedom as in the power of a person to know and choose the good. A puppet can be harmless. A drugged creature can be calm. An NPC can be coded to feel satisfied. But none of those is the same thing as a person capable of real love.

>>42592847
okay i get your point, your saying suffering isnt inherent to the world, just to our condition. but when you recognize that our conditions are not chosen then the meaning within the distinction between worlds inherent badness and conditions inherent badness kinda collapses.

>>42592853
> but it means

Again, what something means can be changed by God even if your human brain doesn't seem to think it makes sense. Either God is able to change everything and is limited by nothing or he's not. You can't have it both ways.

If God has limitations put onto him that he can not change or overcome even if he wants to he is by definition not all-powerful because other forces at play have more say than he does at the end of the day.

>>42592853
so freedom is good because it allows knowing an choosing good. but knowing and choosing good doesnt require the existence of evil. there can be comparitive goodness between multiple good things, so freedom as the explanation for evil doesnt hold up because freedom isnt required for what you say it is.

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>>42592858
>the meaning within the distinction between worlds inherent badness and conditions inherent badness kinda collapses.
it's a difference between "existence is pain" and "my existence is painful"

>>42592860
not the guy but what is the limitation you are even referring to? the inability to enact contradictions? you cant even describe what that would be or what that is, so you are essentially saying god cant do unspecified thing therefore hes not omnipotent. you actually have to specify what bounds him because saying he cant contradict himself disproves his omnipotence is would require a clear idea of what that contradiction enacted would actually be.

>>42592873
but what is existence lacking preference? the only existence that can be ascribed meaning is one with preferences. your saying existence is not pain because things can exist without pain. but arent you actually sumggling in a mind-independant reality within this worldview? because your saying things can exist without suffering, but suffering is nessecary to the structure that allows us to know(ish) that things exist.

>>42592874
Of course I can't describe it because I am NOT GOD. I can't even imagine new colors than what my human eyes allow me to see. Do you really want to argue because I can't imagine it God can't imagine it? God can only see and make the colors that humans see on Earth? Saying that I can't describe what enacting a contradiction would look like misses the point. You and I can't fully describe what a 10 dimensional space with 1000 new colors would look like or imagine it yet we can still discuss it coherently. These concepts doesn't require visualizability.

And either way the debate is about omnipotence. If omnipotence means the ability to do absolutely anything whatsoever (which it is defined as, being able to do anything) then any inability including inability to actualize contradictions is a limitation.

>>42592884
im not saying because you cant describe it therefore god cant do it. but you are making a specific claim god cant do x (contradict) so in order for that claim to actually be coherent you have to tell us what x is. >If omnipotence means the ability to do absolutely anything whatsoever (which it is defined as, being able to do anything) then any inability including inability to actualize contradictions is a limitation. what inability are you referring to? for it to be an inability is to assume that actualising contradiction would hold some meaning which it doesnt.

>>42592889
How is creating a square circle not describing something? Because you and I can't imagine it with our brains this means it is nothing? A contradiction is perfectly specifiable at the propositional level. Square circle and a A is B but A is not B a clear description.

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>>42592882
>but what is existence lacking preference?
dunno, never seen it

>arent you actually sumggling in a mind-independant reality within this worldview?
I thought that's what you were talking about?
>existence and how painful it IS
> Nothing supernatural IS real.

>because your saying things can exist without suffering, but suffering is nessecary to the structure that allows us to know(ish) that things exist.
that was my point too.

>>42590707
Victim-blaming

>>42592895
it is a clear description you have given, but not a meaningful one. to say god isnt omnipotent because he cant make x and not x smuggles in that x and not x means something. to say god cant make x and not x therefore not omnipotent is to say god cant flargle therefore not-omnipotent.

>>42592897
but you said there was a diffrence between my existance is painful and existence is pain but if you cant specify what a prefrenceless existance is then how can you claim that the claim that existance is pain is false?

>>42592901
"A is B and A is not B in the same respect at the same time" is not meaningless. It has semantic content and you understand what is being asserted. Most people simply judge it to be impossible because it doesn't fit our human brain logic imagination.

>>42592633
>the truth is we're just here and there are forces trying to give us meaning, whether that be energy beings or our own minds.
This is what I believe. I also think polytheism is closer to the truth and I don't think the 'Gods' are heavily intimate in our personal lives.

>>42590316
You chose to come into this world to learn and evolve. To observe. To help others evolve. You may feel like you have nothing to contribute, but you do, or you wouldn't be here. Your guides wouldn't have let you come here and/or wouldn't have told you that coming here was necessary. Life is a school. A learning experience. A growing experience. There is no right or wrong, there is no such thing as a loser or a failure. Just by being here, means you've already won. Because you were brave enough to come to this harsh, dense, traumatic reality.

Your existence alone is helping humanity. Your appearance, your energy, your thoughts and actions, your companionship to whoever you're around and interact with. That alone is why you came. There's nothing special or spectacular that you're supposed to see or do here. You're learning, growing, evolving, and helping others just by being here. Which was your own freewill to do. You got this.

Religion means nothing, titles mean nothing, money means nothing, looks mean nothing, accomplishments mean nothing. The only thing that matters is loving and helping others. That's it. It's not all about you. Your life isn't all about you. It's about those around you that you have the power to help and heal by being kind and of service. And most importantly, no matter how you feel or what you go through, you're not alone. There's someone else out there right now that feels the exact same way you do and even worse.

>>42592904
>you understand what is being asserted
no how? semantic content doesnt grant meaning. saying god cant flargle has semantic content. You are just asserting meaning with the claim that we understand the meaning. specify it

>>42592906
I already included that possibility into the OP and I hate it.

You are telling me that God/Source/One created the whole universe and is able to perform every miracle but he's not able to create us with all the knowledge we need to be happy from scratch? Instead we were created so lacking that we have to incarnate into painful shitholes and live mostly long, boring wagecuck lives struggling with disease and aging? Fantastic.

And what do we even need to LEARN for? If the other side is perfect, what exactly do we need to learn for and why does the selfish desire to learn justify billions of animals and humans enslaved into suffering and failed dreams? It's sociopathic and I hate it.

>>42592906
We choose to suffer why? the only logical reason to choose to suffer is to escape an even greater suffering. if whatever you were in before incarnation was so bad that you chose to be incarnated into a child that will be raped then you are describing the most horrific and immoral of realites.

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>>42592903
>how can you claim that the claim that existance is pain is false?
I'm not. Just seems that way to me.

but again, your original question also seems to assume what things "are".
don't you think it's little silly to ask how things "are" and to knock my answer down for talking about the same thing?

>>42592907
No, because you don't know what a "flargle" is so it doesn't have meaning to you. You understand what a square is and you understand what a circle is. You understand the concept of a square circle, which would be an object or drawing or state that combines both of these things that you already know, you just think it's not possible so you dismiss it.

>>42590316
If you give in to pantheism or fundamental nothingness then you have to admit that the satanic pedophiles are the same to everything else which is kinda absurd, and considering you are shocked by the horrific shit they have done. You are aware that people were never meant to live like this, but won't solve anything giving up to despair. Be grateful for the good things in life and try to do good deeds whenever possible. Can you do something about this/raise awareness about this problem and how can they be combated so that you bring a change for the good?
There is a possibility for good which should be valued by us.

>>42592907
this retard is using chatgpt btw
chatgpt says the word flargle

>>42592915
I don't think he does lol

>>42592912
okay i guess but what philosophical backing do you have for this claim that existence is not pain? in favor of existence being pain is the fact that existence itself is non-confirmable without the structures that necessitate pain. i kind of get your overall point but i dont think the distinction between existence is pain and my existance is painful is actually a distinction if existance nessesitates pain.
>>42592915
i do use ai but not in this conversation its obvious from the amount of typos lol

>>42592922
nah wait im actually wrong because existence doesnt necessitate pain but my or your existance does. so your right the distinctiuon holds. but to a solipsist saying my existance is painful and existance is pain there is no distinction but im not a solipsist so you win

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>>42590316
The purpose of allowing events to continue is to prove that rebellious humans and angels (now known as demons) can't govern the earth properly. This involves allowing them to test all major forms of government before going "Time's up". This is very similar to how human parents allow children to have it their way (or sometimes legally can't stop them) and the consequences show the rebellion didn't lead to good things after all.
The difference is that God can undo various forms of harm and provide in a way that makes up for the terrible experiences in a way that no human parent can. The precedent will also be set once and for all time, so that in the future when people ask "Why choose God's way?" they won't have to settle for a "Trust me" or really any words, they will have a real record of how poorly it turned out to look back on.
>how painful it is
Even in the scenario above, those who came before us really could have made things a lot better by now. Having read about or even lived through some of the worst times, so many could've worked together over the generations to make it so that these days the majority of deaths (for one thing) were a result of natural disasters. But most people don't go the distance despite knowing there's much that can be done.
Even those who became very wealthy and did help others greatly, they only went so far. They knew they could go further but, understandably, had hopes, dreams and pleasantries they wanted to pursue. Many saw their fine example and didn't do nearly as much - most of our parents are examples of that.
Now we are here. Rather than brave vast distances to make one's fortune, many of us just need to invest from the comfort of our homes to acquire great means. We can go the distance to alleviate suffering. Who will find their joy in doing this rather than simply having a luxurious life focused on fun? No one can decide for another. The potential is there. Will (You) tap into it?

>>42592913
>You understand the concept of a square circle
haha not really that is equivilent to saying you understand the concpet of a flargle. if i say a flargle is bright and also tasty those things have meaning to you like a sqaure and a circle do, but because the compontes hold meaning doesnt mean that the overall does.

>>42592938
Flargle has no base on anything. You know what a circle is and you know what a square is. You can imagine both of them existing at the same time as a concept, even if you can't visualize it just like you can't visualize it as a color.

>if i say a flargle is bright and also tasty those things have meaning to
Sure, if you start to describe the Flargle then I can start imagining it. So if you say God can create a FLARGLE it is not meaningless, it would be a something that I don't know fully yet but it is bright and tasty.

>>42592943
You are saying both squares and circle have meaning therefore the combination must also have meaning. but that doesnt make sense because for the same reason i could say a flargle holds meaning because i have told you it is a combination of the propertys bright and tasty. tell me what a flargle is based on the compoents bright and tasty, that is equivilent to asking me what a sqaure circle is based on the compoents square and cricle

>>42592943
A new color is something you can’t imagine. A 10D object is something you can’t imagine. A square circle is not like that. It is not an unimaginable object; it is a cancellation of terms. “Square” means not-circle in the relevant respect. “Circle” means not-square in the relevant respect. So “square circle” means “an X that is not-X in the same way at the same time.” That is not hidden depth, that is a self-deleting sentence. It is not a limit on God, it is a limit on noise becoming meaning.

>>42592947
A Flargle is an unknown thing or state or person/animal with compatible properties that God is capable of creating. I don't know what it is yet, but it has properties that I am familiar of and God can create it. It's very simple.

I don't need to know what it is, I don't need to be able to visualize it, I can understand the concept of something unknown to me that God can make.

>>42592948
>It is not an unimaginable object; it is a cancellation of terms.

It is a cancellation of terms to YOU. In your human brain it is. But the argument is that God is above our limitations and logic, he can decide things to exist or be even if they make no sense to your logic. Also stop with the AI slop please.

>>42592950
>A Flargle is an unknown thing or state or person/animal with compatible properties that God is capable of creating
no you are just asserting the properties are compatible. to say a thing has multiple propertys that have meaning therefore the thing must have meaning doesnt add up because the meaning of one property can directly negate the meaning of another

>>42592956
I didn't do that. I said God made something unknown to me and is capable of creating that. You later gave that thing more properties, which helped me imagine it a little better. But even without it, I can understand the concept of things that I don't know or understand yet being real.

>>42592959
you said god isnt omnipotent because he cant create a sqaure circle. i said that doesnt negate god potiential omnipotence because a sqaure circle holds no meaning, like a flargle. you said it does because each of its compoents (sqaure, circle) hold meaning. but that doesnt hold up when the meaning of one property negates the meaning of another of its propertys, so the claim that a sqaure circle holds meaning is false

>>42590316
People need to use their reason and love in order to overcome the difficulties met in life. Pages from "The Golden Verses" of Pythagoras with comments by Hieroclys of Alexandria helped me understand some of this. Evil has a derivative nature, which brings disruption in how things are meant to be. Atoms are not evil, the universe is not evil, but a conscientious agent aware of it's actions and their consequences might be capable of evil. Tragedies caused by accidents and disasters caused by what you can call "natural evil" and such disruptions might sometimes be prevented when people take time to use their reason and observe reality in order to find a possible solution, a fatalistic attitude will never be helpful. I believe that God takes care of people even when they are astray so that death is not all powerful and things might be repaired and brought back to their purpose

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>>42592922
>what philosophical backing do you have for this claim that existence is not pain?
you just asked me that.

I'm not claiming any spooky knowledge but your question already seems to start with this assumption. If you want to argue this you might need to revise your original question too.

>why are bananas yellow?
"they ripen"
>but how do you know that's "yellow"?
"...?"

>i kind of get your overall point but i dont think the distinction between existence is pain and my existance is painful is actually a distinction if existance nessesitates pain.
it's called "theory of mind" in developmental psychology and most people grasp the distinction around age 4

Mommy can't see the red race car you are holding even though you are talking on phone with her.
And maybe mommy doesn't exist outside your mind but then the jews don't either

>>42592963
If God wasn't able to create a square circle he would by definition of what the word means not be omnipotent. Omnipotent means that anything is possible, including things that may appear to a human as impossible or meaningless.

>a sqaure circle holds no meaning, like a flargle.
Which is wrong because it holds meaning to me and many other people otherwise we couldn't even discuss it. Even a FLARGLE has meaning. Something being unknown to you yet doesn't make it meaningless. You can't visualize it or understand it yet, but that doesn't mean it has no meaning. The meaning could be simply a placeholder label for an unknown type of thing that God can make.

>>42592967
so your saying a mind without pain is possible? yea i already acknowledged that right after here.>>42592932

>>42592969
>Omnipotent means that anything is possible
saying somthing meaningless is possible doesnt make sense. Which is wrong because it holds meaning to me and many other people otherwise we couldn't even discuss it- so a sqaure circle holds acvtual meaning? that defeats your own point because then god has actulized contradictions so he would be omnipotent.

>>42592974
>saying somthing meaningless is possible doesnt make sense.

"It doesn't make sense to my human brain logic so God (who is not bound to logic or limitations) couldn't possible do it or perceive it."

Okay buddy.

>so a sqaure circle holds acvtual meaning?

If God wants to have meaning, it does. If God doesn't want it to have meaning it doesn't.
Wow, looks like God can just do whatever!

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>>42592972
>so your saying a mind without pain is possible?
I'm not saying that, you are
>existence and how painful it is

>i already acknowledged that
so what's te issue?

>>42592979
there isnt one i literally said you win lol.
>"It doesn't make sense to my human brain logic so God (who is not bound to logic or limitations -theists do not claim that god is not bound to logic or any limitations, god cant be evil for example. logic isnt a thing restricted to limited human brains. your saying since logic is a limit within our own minds and god is all powerful that therefore logic shouldnt limit him. but this is wrong because the rules of logic are not limiting, the rules of meaning are.
>If God wants to have meaning, it does. If God doesn't want it to have meaning it doesn't. go around and tell theists that god can be evil because he is omnipotent. your kind of strawmanning peoples idea of god as one that can do logically impossible things

>>42592978
whoops didnt tag you
>>42592978
>>42592989

>>42592989
> logic isnt a thing restricted to limited human brains.

Of course it is, because neither you or me can visualize things that violate human logic like a square circle. So logic does restrict us. But as far as meaning is concerned, for many people (including myself) a square circle absolutely has meaning and can be discussed endlessly.

>go around and tell theists that god can be evil because he is omnipotent.

If God is omnipotent he is most definitely evil to some degree because he could have given and taught us everything (as his power is limitless and he doesn't need to follow human logic of "we need pedophiles for free will") without jewish child rapists but he decided to specifically include jewish child rapists.

>>42593001
I mean you're down in the shithole with me so I don't really see you as an authority of how to avoid being a shell cuck either. Either you got tricked down here or you agree with the slavery mindset of making humans/animals suffer for a Soul to jerk itself off to its ~learning/evolution~ process.

>>42592978
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of God revealed in this thought experiment of yours that He is capable of being changed.
God is outside of time. Time is in fact, dependent upon God.
God does not make decisions, because decisions require an event to arise in order to make a decision upon. That is dependent on being inside of time.
God does not change his mind or think up something new. He already knows everything. There is no new data or new thought process that can occur to Him that isn't already accounted for.
There is no action He can take, because that would requires there to be something he could do that hasn't already been done. That implies both existence within time and unfulfilled potentials, of which God has neither.

A square circle is impossible because the God that must exist has declared that a universe in which contradictions are possible are not the ones he will create life within. That is not an arbitrary decision, it is the way it must be.

>>42593002
your right logic is a restrictor to human minds but not only human minds
>But as far as meaning is concerned, for many people (including myself) a square circle absolutely has meaning and can be discussed endlessly.
if thats the case then god has actualized contradictions and is therefore omnipotent etheri contradictions have meaning and thus have been actulized and god is omnipotent or they dont which is still compatable with an omnipotent god.
>If God is omnipotent he is most definitely evil to some degree because he could have given and taught us everything
true. letys word iot like this, if omnipotence is defined as the ability to do the logically impossible then i agree a god like that couldnt exist. but with a definition of omnipotence like "can do all things" gods omnipotence could still be possible because a sqaure circle isnt a thing, because things must have meaning in order to be a thing.

>>42593008
>that is dependent on
I stopped reading right there. Nothing is dependent on anything if God is omnipotent because he sets the stage and decides the rules. If he doesn't then forces outside of his control are limiting him.

>>42593009
But a square circle has a meaning to me. So because it means something to me wouldn't that then mean it can exist? You say it has no meaning to you, okay. Then who is the authority of what is meaningful or exists?

>>42593013
>no rebuttal

>>42593019
yes okay so if a sqaure circle has meaning to you then it is a thing, a sqaure has been actualized in your mind because it has meaning which is required to be a thing. so if you want to claim that a sqaure circle holds meaning to you, then god is omnipoten5t because he actulized a sqaure circle within your mind.

>>42592722
I said YOU can change the existence. Anyone can do it. Learn what pataphysics are.

>>42593010
You should have kept reading, because you missed the whole fucking point.
What God has decided is not arbitrary, it is the maximal expression of the variable He optimizes everything around, which is the good of every individual eternal soul.
There is no choice there. Where would choice come from? There is no limit on knowledge, no limit on ability, no temporal limitations. It is not a choice, it is the way it must be. The most powerful possible entity *is* the One who is `the will towards the eternal soul of the individual` and **cannot be anything else**, because anything else would not be God.
Your hypothetical god that can arbitrarily decide this and that based on whims is the anthropomorphized fiction you accuse us of having when you say 'you just can't image a square circle because of your human brain!'.

>>42593037
i agree with your point on omnipotence but can you please respond to my earlier point about freedom in >>42592863 ?

>>42593037
>a world with millions of children being raped is the optimized state
>our beautiful and omnipotent God could have simply not done in any other way

Do you ever realize how retarded you sound?

>>42593037
How do you know it is not arbitrary? How do you know God doesn't enjoy hurting us and seeing us squirm? This is all based on opinions coming out of your ass?

>>42592863
>>42593051
I'll answer these both together, because they're related.
The degree to which a person can suffer in this life is actually limited. Here, you can die or retreat into insanity. There is a range of allowable suffering under the rules of this universe.
You know this because we can image universes in which the range of suffering is much worse, and there are plenty of examples in fiction where this happens. Think 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' where the main character experiences a level of suffering completely impossible in our reality.
You can also imagine a universe in which there is much less suffering. Think the spaceship from the kid's move Wall-E. Not much suffering going on there, but is that obviously a better alternative? Is that obviously an environment more worth living in than ours? It's stiflingly comfortable to the degree it limits the ability of everyone experiencing it to grow.

So there is an optimum. A point where the spectrum of possible experiences are most conducive to the health of the eternal soul of the individuals in it. Not so torturous as to leave you hopeless, not so comfortable as to leave you numb.

>>42590762
Not op, but I liked the video, thank you very much.

>>42593097
>Not much suffering going on there, but is that obviously a better alternative?
yes bro if children dont get raped on the Wall-E ship then it is obviously a better alternative. Is that obviously an environment more worth living in than ours?
>It's stiflingly comfortable to the degree it limits the ability of everyone experiencing it to grow.
grow what? avoiding suffering is good in and of itself, if you saying suffering is justified because it allows you to grow, then you have to justify the goodness of growing independant of suffering, which is impossible.

>>42593131
not that guy but i dunno how suffering not being as bad given perspective justifies it. even after living a trillion years, i would still say that that should never have happened to me, it was bad. Perspective can reduce the intensity of suffering but does not justify the existence of that suffering in the first place.

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>>42590316
Life is the answer, not the question to existence. With life we create perception, with perception we create emotions. With emotions we create reality.
>da jews!
And you are still attached to the world of illusions being dragged along the current of whatever society tells you to be angry at today. That is why you are so miserable.

>>42593162
no but i recognize it was bad that that happened. you seem to recognize that aswell, so your point seems somthing like "but suffering isnt that bad actually" which even granting doesnt explain or justify the existance of it in the first place.

>>42593131
Why would I not be upset about it if it was entirely preventable if God is real?

What are you even arguing about? So you have a daughter with your wife and that daughter gets raped by a bunch of homeless men. Your best friend is just standing there and watching, he does not help your daughter, even though he could. By your logic it's fine that he doesn't because surely in the future you won't really care about this horrific crime and you have moved on. So no problem here, right? Your best friend not helping and your daughter being violated is not an issue and if you dare to say it's evil or express pain then you are just a retarded big cry baby.

>>42593175
>bunch of pseudo-intellectual semantics that don't solve the issue at all

Thanks for your amazing contribution.

>>42593117
>avoiding suffering is good in and of itself
Sitting in a comfortable padded cell is always inherently better than a life of real adventure then?
You can try to limit suffering but you inherit the same problem at the new border.
Suppose God prevents murder but allows assault. Then you ask why assault. Suppose He prevents assault but allows betrayal. Then why betrayal. Suppose He prevents betrayal but allows grief. Then why grief. Suppose He allows only stubbed toes. Then the worst stubbed toe in history becomes the new evidence that reality is intolerable.
>justify the goodness of growing independent of suffering
The alternative, when scaled out to infinite time, is eternal stagnation. To remain in the same state forever without change. That is the same thing as being locked into a hell, even if its of your choosing.

>>42593205
You are victim blaming instead of attacking the root cause and abuser. Pretending that people who don't move on from extremely painful shit are just crybabies. You are creating excuses for sociopathic immortal beings who live 100000000000000+ years so "um you having all these bad things happening to you doesn't really matter ok?? just move on".

>>42593201
>bro you need extreme pain and challenges to grow
>God couldn't have designed reality any other way, he just can't, ok?

>>42593202
>You can try to limit suffering but you inherit the same problem at the new border.
So what? You could say the same about our current life.
Why murder but not SUPER MURDER??? Why can't I murder the soul of a person?

>>42593201
yes, as i would perfer to have grown up in an eviroment where children dont get raped. i have no reason to assume the inability to drop ice-cream would make me an asshole, just like the inability to get raped wouldnt make you an asshole.

>>42593202
>is eternal stagnation
why is that bad if there is no suffering?
>Sitting in a comfortable padded cell is always inherently better than a life of real adventure then?
no because suffering is prefrence negation so if you prefer adventure then that would be suffering but if you preferred to sit in a padded room it wouldnt be.

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>>42593191
>Another entitled retard having a melty because people do evil so he blames God
I can't wait for God to update the game engine so children can no longer die and the whole meta game revolving around that.

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>>42590316
Belive in whatever makes you happy. Make your own one person religion.
Do what you luke to do exept of things that could harm other beings.

When you die and perish you won't regret and if there is something there you won't have any terrifing deeds on your account.

This is it.
Be a good spirit, try be the best version of yourself and beside that do what makes you happy.

>>42593220
if my child killed somone in front of me and i could easily have stopped them, why isnt it right to blame me for that?

>>42593220
You mean the people God PROGRAMMED and created and then let loose with their evil hearts to violate the innocent and defenseless while God just watches passively even though he could save them any time? You demented slave faggot.

It's so interesting how people hold their own friends to stricter standards than God.

If you had a rich, powerful friend who just watched while people in your family died unable to pay their medications (even though he could easily pay for the medications) or if your friend just sat passively and watched someone you really care about getting violated... and then tells you: "Oh, I just respect the free will of this criminal rapist too much." you would call this person evil and never trust them again.

But if God, who has 100000000000000000000000000000x more power and it would be even easier for him, behaves this way? God is GOOD. Good isn't doing anything wrong. How dare you ungrateful cry baby fuck demand God to do anything! Lmfao.

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>>42593225
Way to miss the point.

>>42593226
>He thinks God programmed people
>He thinks people have free will
You really are trapped in the lower plane of existence. Everything you know, everything you feel, was implanted by people who run society and enforced through your family and TV. You getting angry right now is proof of this.

>>42593244
>umm people never killed or raped before TV and society programming!

roflmao get a load of this moron

>>42593244
how did i miss the point? the way you framed your stament implies you think people are stupid for blaming god for evil, because people do evil. so my counter examples show that if those you are responsible for do evil and you could easily stop it, that makes you evil aswell.

>>42593209
>Why can't I murder the soul of a person?
Because you are severely limited in the degree to which you are allowed to hurt someone. This is a mercy inherent in reality that contradicts your entire worldview.
If life were nothing but pain and suffering orchestrated by an evil, pernicious god, perhaps super murder would be real. It's not.

>>42593216
>why is that bad if there is no suffering?
Because it reduces to nothingness. It is utterly eclipsed by anything that does manage to continue to advance. It becomes a match stick held up against the sun, except the sun is still expanding while the match stick stays static.

>>42593252
So your argument that we would always ask "BUT WHY CAN'T I DO XZ?" doesn't make any sense because it already is the case right now that we are limited, so nothing would stop God from creating a would with less degenerate suffering.

>>42593252
that isnt bad absent suffering though. reducing to nothingness isnt bad in and of itself, only if you would prefer not to. the fact that we would prefer an existance of nothingness over an existance of torture proves that this idea of nothingness holds no value independant of suffering.

>>42593246
>Still throwing a melty
Yeah it's called being raised by your surroundings and genetics as a base. And without that base you wouldn't have any drive at all and just die. Tell me, are you even trying anymore or at you just sperging the fuck out?

>>42593250
I see you are too much in a blood rage as well properly read. I was saying that if a God hand came down and magically made things a certain way then people would play by those magic rules to corrupt it for their own ends anyway.

>>42593260
that doesnt make sense your saying gods rules would be corrupted by limited weak humans? so your saying god isnt omnipotent he cant make things the way they should be? also your assuming inherent bad in human nature which i dont think is right. do babies have any inherent badness? if a baby grew up in a world of pure good what could possibly motivate it to corrupt that good and create evil?

>>42593260
It's called that you are a delusional pissbaby because humans exhibit evil, degenerate traits in ALL cultures around the world and long before any TV or society brainwashing. A human could grow up among animals and still have the desire to kill or hurt for his own benefit (sometimes even fun) or survival, just like animals do.

You could kill all humans and suffering would still be rampant across nature.

>>42593266
Christcucks believe that even angel who lived only surrounded by beauty and gods perfection developed urges of evil. So God made some of the angels inherently leaning towards the evil side through their inner nature, no other explanation.

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>>42593266
>>42593269
So you are just being dishonest and pretending to not understand things. Got it. See you here next week when you repeat everything all over again, stuck in a cycle like the hylic brain you are.

>>42593280
lmao no arguments so run away classic. your right im actually just pretending to not know how a perfectly good god allows child rape.

>>42593280
>degenerate cuck slave makes excuses for suffering and ignores any argument
>"umm akshually you are being dishonest and just not as le intelligent as me "

Back to plebbit with you.

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>>42593244
The very concept of Ouroboros is about escaping that cycle, anon. Have you not read Hermetica?

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>>42593286
I am aware it's about escaping Samsara. If you want to get away go ahead but I got a feeling most of us are going to be crawling back to earth after we had our fill of peace.

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>get BTFO
>has the ultimate melty by posting epstain to prove god is not le real, even though said file is proof that god is in fact real and they hate it and want you to stop believing in it.
Yup, you really are a failed normie for sure that is completely politically brain rotted by ignoring the UK rape gang cases but crying about the funny island jew because its socially acceptable to.

>>42593254
No, the argument is that limited suffering is needed because to get rid of it all together is too costly. And at this point you just seem to be angry that you are not the one who gets to decided where the bar is set. There is not a touch light enough to free you of that, because now your problem isn't with suffering, it's with you not being God.

>>42593258
Nothingness is an allowed, valid choice. You aren't denied that. That's why hell is allowed to exist. You are wrong in that the alternative is not torture, it is a unending journey towards an infinite, objective goodness.

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Look at this picture.
Look at this majestic motherfucker!
Now you are a little more happy.

>>42593301
to say its an allowed choice when existence is forced on you doesn't really work. Your saying we need suffering to avoid this nothingness but in admitting nothingness is valid you have admitted that the vast suffering experienced to avoid this nothingness is invalid.

>>42593300
Don't choke on God's cock down your throat please, we wouldn't want you to die.

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And watch Konosuba. It will make you feel much better.

Also figure out how to live without a job. Job is the source of the most of frustration.

Goddess bless the NEETdom!

>>42593313
Too late for that

>>42593313
>proving my point

>>42593324
Yeah you definitely have proven the point that you're a pathetic faggot unable to engage with the actual argument and just do his tranny gymanstics "LOOK GUISE IM SOOO SMART LOLOL UUU MAD UM AD?"

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>>42593333
Well, are you mad?

>>42593339
Yes talking to people with no genuine interest to engage and just to jerk off their own ego is pretty annoying who would have thought? :)

>>42593348
burialgoods and solidjj -based
basic logic - cringe

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>>42593348

>>42590854
>When you're in base reality, the light of the divine permeates everything, entropy does not exist, everything is maintained continuously in a perfect state of harmony. You don't evolve there because you exist in a constantly maintained ideal state

Where did this need to "evolve" even come from? You can't elucidate why that actually matters or is necessary

>>42593423
>Where did this need to "evolve" even come from?
I noticed a lot of Japanese media is based around a want of evolving and how humans are stagnant, often looking towards technology to evolve. Honestly I think we need to focus on mental and spiritual evolution more then the physical.

>>42593294
Hermetic escape is not about escaping Samsara. That is Gnostic.
Hermetic escape is about mastering what is there to know about reality and existence and using it to remake the world.

I believe the easiest raw dog way to handle metaphysical concepts yet unattained is to treat this life that you are living as whatever you thought the after life to be. This comes with a lot of responsibilities of course, if you're inclined to help your neighbors and such.

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Aim higher than everyone else combined.

>>42592722
The undefeated champion of this thread.

Everyone is always busy praying and meditating and waking up and eating healthy and working out and going to therapy and self-improving and learning and teaching and coaching and curing and innovating and empathizing and advocating and positive thinking and spelling and summoning and unmasking hidden truths and fighting the power and making positive impact on the world and meanwhile the world is going to hell and they still insist on doing more of the above because we're not doing it hard enough we just need to do more of what is not effective so that maybe it does become effective just believe bro two more weeks bro something is happening bro my life is actually great bro I reached another timeline bro it's all you bro.

>>42593849
The thing is, everyone, not every body, has potential to change existence. We are programmable beings from day 0. The trick is to turn "product of my environment" into "my will imposed onto what I deem imposable". That's the only magic worth a damn.

>D) Nothing supernatural is real.
Hahahahaha

>>42591432
THIS

>>42592725
And yet despite all this cope, you are still going to end up in the same place as everyone else

>>42593300
>even though said file is proof that god is in fact real and they hate it and want you to stop believing in it
Uh, that's not fucking proof of anything. If its released, they want it released. God, you're a fucking retard.

>>42593880
>The trick is to turn "product of my environment" into "my will imposed onto what I deem imposable". That's the only magic worth a damn.
Many have become pessimistic because they've received little reward and lots of punishment for every effort they've made since childhood. This mechanism has completely drained their will. Why are optimists so unwilling to accept that this truly is the reality for some people?

>>42593986
>>D) Nothing supernatural is real.
No one is saying that. Even the most hardcore materialist atheists must admit that at the very least it's metaphorically true that their reality is shaped by forces beyond their understanding. At best we live in The Shire while Middle Earth is falling to darkness.

>>42594080
>No one is saying that.
Read the OP.

>>42594085
I literally replied to the point of minor Gods existing without omnipotence above and why it's not helping. If you took a moment actually reading the thread instead of dilating your troon hole non-stop maybe you would have seen it.

>>42594085
Not OP but this rhetoric is obviously retarded.

>In most religions over history, humans are simply fashioned from clay by some minor god. The universe isn't here for us.
This is like parents saying that their child is not entitled to anything and should accept that life is wage slavery and paying taxes. The obvious retort is: don't bring children in this world especially not when you're low IQ and poor.

>Do you spend your time helping others? No? Imagine that, it's like you got something better to do than herd niggers.
Noblesse oblige retard.

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>>42594131
Human beings are very eager to belive that they are in the centre of everything.
This is why they thought that Sun is orbiting THEIR Earth.
This is why antropocentring religions are so common and effective.

But in fact, only I AM in the centre of everything xDDD
Bow before the pope of lizardmen!

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>>42593777

>777

>>42592791
hi blue

you're free to choose whatever you want for most of the important questions in life, i recommend consciously choosing the more empowering rather than diminishing

did we come here of our own free will, or were we forced?
do we have free will and creative power or are our actions and emotions merely deterministic?
is pain and suffering a catalyst for growth and evolution, or are we simply victims with no ultimate goal?

how you CHOOSE to answer these questions will shape the lens you see reality through. most dont understand its a choice, as they've simply let their subconscious choose for them(often to their own detriment).

the operating system i choose to run says this is a training ground/bootcamp for spiritual warriors. there are blissful places without suffering, but we chose to come here because we enjoy the challenge and there's zero risk. suffering that lasts tens of thousands of our human years is almost unnoticable in the eyes of our eternal being(whatever that looks like). it's very easy to imagine how an eternal being might yearn for challenge after an incomprehensibly long period of bliss. suicide doesn't solve anything, you'll simply choose to come back and face the same kinds of challenges you were running from.

ultimately, human life is extremely short, and theres very little thats unendurable with a strong mental

>>42595504
if boredom of eternity is so bad you would willingly incarnate yourself as a child to get raped that paints a horrible picture of being an eternal being tormented by boredom.