Hello everyone, I'm writing this to highlight some important and crucial conceptual nuances in Proclus' Theology of Plato, also to discuss that with you all here as it has implications regarding Theurgy also. You see, In the aforementioned text, there is a few quotations, namely in Chapters XLV and XLVI of Book VII which pertain terrestrial beings that, if correctly interpreted, really seem to have wide-reaching applications. I will also cite Iamblichus and others if I feel this is something worthwhile. Please discuss what you know about them and cite sources or logic for claims. My friends, it'd be nice to have a quality thread for a while.
>>42997333"Lastly, after essential heroes, an order of souls follows, who proximately govern the affairs of men, and are dæmoniacal according to habitude or alliance, but not essentially. These souls likewise are the perpetual attendants of the Gods, but they have not an essencewhollysuperior to man. Of this kind, as we are informed by Proclus in his MS. Scholia on the Cratylus, are the Nymphs that sympathize with waters, Pans with the feet of goats and the like. They also differ from those powers that are essentially of a dæmoniacal characteristic in this, that they assume a variety of shapes (each of the others immutably preserving one form) are subject to various passions, and are the causes of every kind of deception to mankind. Proclus likewise observes, that the Minerva which so often appeared to Ulysses and Telemachus belonged to this order of souls."—Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLV
>>42997339"On this account it is frequently seen that from the mixture of these powers with men heroes are generated, who appear to possess a certain prerogative above human nature. Not only a dæmoniacal genus, however, of this kind, physically sympathizes with men, but a different genus sympathizes with other animals, as Nymphs with trees, others with fountains, and others with stags, or serpents." —Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLVI
>>42997348"They employ, however, terrestrial and partial spirits in the generations of some of the human race, not physically mingling with mortals, but moving nature, perfecting its power, expanding the path of generation, and removing all impediments. Fables, therefore, through the similitude of appellation conceal the things themselves. For spirits of this kind are similarly denominated with the Gods, the leading causes of their series. Hence they say, either that Gods have connexion with women, or men with Goddesses. But if they were willing to speak plainly and clearly, they would say that Venus, Mars, Thetis, and the other divinities, produce their respective series, beginning from on high, as far as to the last of things; each of which series comprehends in itself many essences differing from each other; such as the angelical, dæmoniacal, heroical, nymphical, and the like. The lowest powers, therefore, of these orders, have much communion with the human race; for the extremities of first are connascent with the summits of secondary natures."—Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLVI
>>42997339>>42997348>>42997355INB4>Forgot to greentextAnyways, with that out of the way, it seems to me like Taylor is saying that Odysseus' Athena was a kind of partial or mundane daemon but not an evil or chthonic subterranean one even though he uses some negative terms here. I gather the reason why he says that they are not wholly superior, assume various shapes, are subject to passion and "are the causes of every kind of deception to mankind" is all precicely because they are sublunery beings but not because they're truly malicious. As he says they're perpetual attendants to the Gods. As being mundane beings, these daemons deal with the fabrication and generation of all material things so therefore they "confuse" and "decieve" us by the lesser appearances they create through similitudes in matter. Also since they have more of a materially oriented nature they can take many shapes like matter itself and by calling them passionate he means they're more temperamental in the way they express themselves generally than other daemons and sometimes even fall in love with mortals.(1/2)
>>42997377The most confusing part seems to be the "not essentially" element he throws in with the text. I assume Taylor means to say they don't have purely numinous attributions or associations as most daemons do and rather oversee, as he says, the "affairs of men" I.E. the goings-on of the mundane material world. So, I figure they don't oversee entirely intellectual or essential domains like most daemons, but formative substances which are tied to the material, though they have oversight of their physical constituents in a daemoniacal way through habitude. These are technically daemons just ones which have more of a tangibily facing character. I feel they aren't humans and they aren't ascended people, these creatures, they are really daemons yet ones of a lesser status which govern terrestrial affairs. They make bonds with the material so cannot be considered intellectual daemons as they don't have intellectual habitudes or similitudes but these beings are really the purest mundane souls with the purpose of perfecting material reality. It's even more interesting to me because it seems like Taylor insinuates that through the arrangement of these spirits with mortals the heroes became incarnate. Perhaps as some kind of attendant during the course of generation, but I'm not sure and that is speculation. Thank you for hearing all this out if you've read this far, it is much appreciated, sincerely OP.
It seems this Taylor was a christian? If he was a christian, i would distrust many of his interpretations. >>42997377>subject to passion and cause deceptionseems to me a christian framework being applied to hellenic ideas of spiritual beings
Minerva is a Goddess, but "the Minerva that appeard to Ulysses and Telemachus" is a sublunary emanation of the Goddess Minerva's series. She is a partial rational soul, as are humans; but un-incarnate (unlike humans); and daemonic as well as heroic by habitude, as was Socrates. She is equal to humans by essence (as partial souls) and superior to most by habitude; but she is wholly equal to Socrates by both essence and habitude. She was rational by essence, intellectual by participation, divine by similitude, incorporeal by essence and corporeal in manifestation.Humans cannot assume various shapes in the same way attendant souls can, even though we are sublunary; and high-ranking intellectual daemons are not subject to passion, though they can be sublunary. I would need to be more familiar with his framework to be able to determine why precisely he assigns each of these characteristics (assuming shapes, subject to passion, deception etc.). It is disagreeable or an inelegant way of wording what he might be trying to convey at best. but you are right that they are not essentially malicious."not essentially" means it's not actually that thing. like a whale is a mammal by essence, but a fish by habitude. terrestrial daemons don't oversee anything intellectual. but intellectual daemons do. gods oversee essential domains.An essential human can be a habitual god via theurgy. heroes are born through the union of a god and a human mother, or a man and goddess. terrestrial daemons provide the necessary conditions for this specific event, since the god is entirely incorporeal and immaterial.
>>42997333It's mental architecture not whatever beings out there you desperately need it to be. You're wrong. You'll always be wrong. And you'll never find it. Good luck.
>>42999303no need to be too self-critical. you're right plenty of times.
>>42997333BENevolent, you say?Perhaps a little blue ?Eisenhower ?A little November perhaps?The BEN men are BENevolent.Speculation been all over, but they defend planet Earth, and all it's inhabitants, human and/or otherwise.
>>42999303Reality itself is a mental construct.The hard fact is that it doesn't exist if no observer mentally paints the picture of it in their mind, to say that it exists.Without a reality tunnel, there is no reality.That's not to say it is mentally created, only that experience is it's evaluation of existence, and experience does not occur without mental constructs.You run a minimap of reality within your mind, to experience it externally.Without that minimap, there is no experience of the external.This is factual, down to the technical philosophical science involved with (You) being you.
>>42998992WOAH, very impressed. OP here and thank you for the well worded and informational reply as it is greatly appreciated. So you figure I'm generally correct and that's splendid because well you see I'm very interested in these things. First off yes, I understand that we can through theurgy purify our pneumatic vehicles to reveal our lumeniferous natures and unify with the divine existences that rules over our respective series. However it's important to add that you aren't obliterated or annihilated in this process and simply "become divine" as our soul and also our intellectual essence remain always in tact but in the case of the liberated the soul is entirely sublimated and transfigured through it's proximity to it's formal character and through this it's God, although I'm sure you'd agree with this. Secondly you mention something of great importance yet discreetly, that of the involvement of these sublunerary archontic terrestrials in the generation of the heroic demigods. So, I wonder, must one recieve a certain erotike mania, so enter into a committed theurgic partnership with one of these creatures, in order for that to transpire? No, I do not mean anything physical, fleshly or base but a sympathetic bond resulting in many benefits between a mortal and a God through an intermediary being. I can only fathom it's utmost beauty but words come to mind such as sublime phantasy, transcendant fixation, everlasting growth, unending vivifying virility and all the benefits of worldly existence. I'll pray for another response from you as it seems like you're one in ten million or in other words a rare and valuable individual worth listening to with complete attention, kudos.
Here are some various quotes from Iamblichus' Section II of De Mysteriis regarding mundane daemons.>"...those of archons, if these powers appear to you to be the cosmocrators, who govern the sublunary element, will be more various, but adorned in order...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter III>"...but those of archons, if their dominion pertains to the world, produce astonishment...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter III>"With respect to archons, the manifestation of some of these imparts mundane benefits, and all the goods of life...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter IX>But whenthese dispositions come into contact with archons, mundane or material, motions are excited in conjunction with the soul. And, together with the vision of souls, the spectators derive genesiurgic tendencies and connascent providential inspections, for the sake of paying attention to bodies, and such other peculiarities as are allied to these.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter IX>"Archons [of the first rank] exhibit, together with themselves, certain portions of the world; but other archons attract to themselves the inordination and confusion of matter.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter VII>"And with respect to archons, those that are the governors of the world are present with matter in a transcendent manner, and in this way unfold themselves into light.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter V>"The archons of the world remain invariably the same, exhibiting the mundane nature which they possess.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter V>"Again, the manifestation of such archons as preside over mundane forms presents itself to the view as above measure great... Moreover, with respect to archons, the fire of those that are of a more elevated order, is more pellucid... The fire of those archons that are of the first rank is tranquil...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Section II, Chapter IV
https://youtu.be/MJVLdnoKQvshttps://youtu.be/9jyAS9o5WGshttps://youtu.be/K5tpkhHyxgc
Monism is stupid you guys would be better of reading stoicism
>>43001346Why?
Plato’s Cratylus (398c–d):>Hermogenes: … but what is the meaning of the word "hero"? (eros)>Socrates: I think that there is no difficulty in explaining, for the name is not much altered, and signifies that they were born of love.>Hermogenes: What do you mean?>Socrates: Do you not know that the heroes are demigods?>Hermogenes: What then?>Socrates: All of them sprang either from the love of a God for a mortal woman, or of a mortal man for a Goddess; think of the word in the old Attic, and you will see better that the name heros is only a slight alteration of Eros, from whom the heroes sprang: either this is the meaning, or, if not this, then they must have been skilful as rhetoricians and dialecticians, and able to put the question (erotan), for eirein is equivalent to legein. And therefore, as I was saying, in the Attic dialect the heroes turn out to be rhetoricians and questioners. All this is easy enough; the noble breed of heroes are a tribe of sophists and rhetors. …The connection between "hero" and "Eros" is first made in Plato’s Cratylus. He cheekily calls heroes "sophists" because they are able to "put the question (erotan)". He is only half-serious. According to Proclus' expansion upon this, the partial rational soul has two circles. Paternal illumination of the dianoetic, intellectual and masculine "Circle of Sameness" by a God gives birth to philosophers and legislators, such as Minos, Socrates and Plato. Maternal illumination of the doxastic, practical and feminine "Circle of Difference" by a Goddess gives birth to warriors and laborers, such as Achilles and Hercules.
"Archons" are distinct in essence from partial rational souls (such as the Minerva that appeared to Ulysses and Telemachus, nymphs, demigods and humans). They rank below essential heroes, but above partial rational souls; and they are unfallen. Hylic archons interact with physical matter via their hylic vehicles by way of rulership, while humans and demigods do so via their dense physical bodies directly, whereas terrestrial daemons (be they essential or by habitude) interact via their pneumatic vehicles by way of sympathy. Gods impart constant and permanent, undivided and transcendental primary illumination unto all existence, which allows for participation, whereas angels impart divided secondary illumination;- (cosmic) gods and angels visibly manifest via their luciform vehicles as aether. Human parents generate the demigod's physical body. Terrestrial daemons (essential or by habitude...) actively generate the demigod's pneumatic vehicle and nudge the environment, acting as executives on behalf of the Demiurge's primary causal generative energy. (Archons play a minor, supporting, passive hylic role). The lead-god provides the divine ray, determines the demigod's series, commands the daemons and grants heroic magnitude, divine inspiration and virtues. Divine mania is the resulting state of the parents' partial rational souls' cognitive circles (Circle of Sameness and Circle of Difference) and pneumatic vehicles (dispersal of defilement) when illumined by the divine ray; and it is inherited by the demigod. Theurgic sympathy is the channel by which the divine ray is able to illumine the parents' partial rational souls' cognitive circles and pneumatic vehicles and the terrestrial daemons.
The human parents may perform theurgic prayer to elevate their sublunary receptivity for a divine ray (as a sympathetic auxiliary cause); though having performed no theurgic prayer (let alone participation in divine union) does not strictly preclude them from bearing a demigod, as that primary cause is ordained by divine decree.All four types of divine mania are indispensable for the generation of a demigod, though they are not perfectly balanced (meaning that one predominates, which determines the heroic archetype as Musical, Dionysian, Apollonian or Aphrodisiac). Theurgic sympathy arises as a result of divine tokens and signatures planted by the Demiurge throughout the cosmos within minerals, herbs, animals, geometric forms, sacred sounds or names, etc. being ignited by divine mania.Your inquiry into erotike mania presumably arises from the connection between "hero" and "Eros" originally established by Plato. You astutely relate this to erotike mania, though this specific relation is not explicitly expounded upon further. A theurgist's focus is on the cultivation of virtues, which eventually allows for and leads to the reception of rewards such as erotike mania, among other benefits. This does express itself through sympathetic influence over terrestrial daemons, though that is merely the executive component of the demigod's generative process. That said, Eros is mainly highlighted in a less technical and more intuitive way with regard to the generation of heroes. The hero's calling is to exemplify supreme valor, wisdom, strength, honor and virtue; those qualities which are instantiated through Eros.
>"And they indeed, are demons by nature. Those demons, however, that are now mentioned, together with the demigods and heroes, are not demons and heroes by nature... but they are only so from habitude, being souls who naturally deliver themselves to generation... But the peculiarity of heroic souls is magnitude of operation, elevation and magnificence... heroic souls having a twofold form of life, viz. doxastic and dianoetic, the former of which is called by Plato in the Timaeus the circle of difference, and the latter, the circle of sameness, and which are characterized by the properties of male and female; - hence these souls at one time exhibit a deiform power, by energizing according to the masculine prerogative of their nature, or the circle of sameness, and at another time according to their feminine prerogative, or the circle of difference... it is necessary that they should sometimes descend and energize principally according to their doxastic part, and sometimes according to their more intellectual part. In short, rectitude of energy in each of these circles is to be ascribed to a divine cause. Hence when the circle of sameness has dominion, the divine cause of illumination is said to be masculine and paternal; but when the circle of difference predominates, it is said to be maternal. Hence too, Achilles in Homer acts with rectitude in practical affairs, and at the same time exhibits specimens of magnificent, vehement, and divinely-inspired energy, as being the son of a Goddess... While on the contrary, Minos and Rhadamanthus, who were heroes illuminated by Jupiter... In the last place Proclus adds, that heroes are very properly denominated from Love, since Love is a great demon: and from the co-operation of demons heroes are produced... Plato who was one of these heroes or demigods, was the offspring of Apollo in the way above explained by Proclus...">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLVI
>"For, you ask, 'what is the sign of the presence of a god, an angel, an archangel, a daemon, or of some archon or a soul?'...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse III>"...a soul, that is, which is held in a body after the manner of one which has left behind the shell-like and earthy body, but which still wanders about in the realms of generation mounted upon a murky and damp pneumatic vehicle...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book IV, Verse XIII>"...the world as a whole, spatially divided as it is, brings about division throughout itself of the single, indivisible light of the gods. This light is one and the same in its entirety everywhere, is present indivisibly to all things that receive it...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book I, Verse IX>"Lesser than this is the light shed by angels, in respect of smallness, and of numerical division... The fire of the gods shines forth indivisible and inexpressible, and fills all the depths of the cosmos... The fire of angels appears divided except in its most perfect forms...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse IV>"By 'daemons' I mean the generative and creative powers of the gods in the furthest extremity of their emanations and in its last stages of division... One must assign to daemons productive powers that oversee nature and the bond uniting souls to bodies; but to heroes it is right to assign lifegiving powers, directive of human beings, and yet exempt from becoming.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse I>"In the case of heroes we find the admixture of generative accumulations of pneumatic auras in accord with which accumulations they themselves are also moved. Of the archons, those who are rulers of the cosmos take a superior attitude to it, and manifest themselves in this way, whereas those who are material reveal themselves as wholly taken up with matter...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse V
>"...prayer establishes links of friendship between us and the gods, and secures for us the triple advantage which we gain from the gods through theurgy, the first leading to illumination, the second to the common achievement of projects, and the third to the perfect fulfilment (of the soul) through fire.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book V, Verse XXVI>"This somehow illuminates the aether-like and luminous vehicle surrounding the soul with divine light, from which vehicle the divine appearances, set in motion by the gods' will, take possession of the imaginative power in us. And this happens in one of two ways: either from the presence of the gods in the soul, or from their shining on it some advanced light.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book III, Verse XIV>"For the illumination that comes about as a result of invocations is self-revelatory and self-willed... It is by virtue of such will, then, that the gods in their benevolence and graciousness unstintingly shed their light upon theurgists, summoning up their souls to themselves and orchestrating their union with them...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book I, Verse XII>"...purifies the offerings with fire and frees them from the bonds of matter, and renders them suitable, through the purification of their nature, for consorting with the gods, and by the same procedures liberates us from the bonds of generation and makes us like to the gods...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book V, Verse XII
>"But again in the Phaedrus, Plato celebrates the supercelestial place... for the sake of the amatory mania: the manner in which the soul takes reminiscence, and the passage to these from hence. I think therefore, it is manifest to every one, and it is frequently asserted by Plato, that the cause which congregates all secondary natures to divine beauty, which familiarizes them to it and is the source of their being filled with it, and of their derivation from thence, is nothing else than love... For in the Phaedrus being inspired by the Nymphs, and having exchanged human intelligence for a better possession, fury, he unfolds with a divine mouth many arcane dogmas concerning the intellectual Gods...">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book I, Chapter IV>"For the fathers of wholes giving subsistence to all things, have disseminated in all things vestiges, and impressions of their own triadic hypostasis... In a similar manner, all the Gods impart to their progeny, symbols of their cause, and through these establish all things in themselves. The impressions, therefore, of the hyparxis of the higher order of Gods, which are disseminated in secondary natures are ineffable and unknown... Of this kind are the symbols of the Gods... The impressions which rank as the third in order, which pervade from intellectual essences to all peculiarities, and proceed as far as to us, are divine names...">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Additional Notes, Note II
>"All things which participate of the solar effluxion, are suspended from the circulation of the sun; I mean, not only the genera that are more excellent than us, but likewise the number of souls, animals, plants, and stones. We should likewise speculate these characteristics differently in Gods, angels, daemons, heroes, men, animals, and plants; for the powers of the Gods extend from on high to the last of things... and the telestic (i.e. mystic) art endeavours through sympathy to conjoin these ultimate participants with the Gods. For the mathematical disciplines were invented by the Pythagoreans, in order to a reminiscence of divine concerns... For they refer both numbers and figures to the Gods...">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book IV, Chapter XIX>"...it is the accomplishment of acts not to be divulged and beyond all conception, and the power of the unutterable symbols, understood solely by the gods, which establishes theurgic union... but the things which properly arouse the divine will are the actual divine symbols.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book I, Verse XI>"...unutterable truths are expressed through secret symbols, beings beyond form brought under the control of form...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book I, Verse XXI>"For these people, imitating the nature of the universe and the demiurgic power of the gods, display certain signs of mystical, arcane and invisible intellections by means of symbols, just as nature copies the unseen principles in visible forms through some mode of symbolism...">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book VII, Verse I>"For you inquire, 'what is the point of meaningless names?' But they are not 'meaningless' in the way that you think... united to the gods either intellectually or rather ineffably... Such, then, is our answer to you concerning the names, which may indeed be called 'inexplicable' and 'barbarous,' but which are in fact wholly suitable for sacred rituals.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book VII, Verse IV-V
>"Hence it is not even chiefly through our intellection that divine causes are called into actuality; but it is necessary for these and all the best conditions of the soul and our ritual purity to pre-exist as auxiliary causes; but the things which properly arouse the divine will are the actual divine symbols.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse XI>"In like manner every amatory order is the cause to all things of conversion to divine beauty, leading back, conjoining, and establishing all secondary natures in the beautiful... On this account it is asserted in the Banquet of Plato that Love is a great demon, because Love first demonstrates in itself a power of this kind, and is the medium between the object of desire and the desiring nature, and is the cause of the conversion of subsequent to prior natures.">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XL>"There are three hypostases, therefore, among the intelligible and occult Gods... I mean Faith, Truth, and Love. And Faith indeed establishes all things in good; but Truth unfolds all the knowledge in beings; and lastly, Love converts all things, and congregates them into the nature of the beautiful. The Chaldean oracles, therefore, speak of Love as binding, and residing in all things: and hence, if it connects all things, it also copulates us with the governments of demons... For proceeding from intelligible intellect, it binds all following natures to each other, and to itself.">Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLI>"...and that which displays courage is heroic.">Iamblichus, De Mysteriis, Book II, Verse III
By similitude, the terrestrial daemons corresponding to their respective god bear the same name. Thus, "the Minerva that appeared to Ulysses and Telemachus" is a "deception" in terms of her phantasmal appearance, but that deception is mirrored in the name given to this daemon by the ancient writers of those stories. Such a terrestrial daemon may be involved in the generation of the demigod's pneumatic vehicle, but Erotike mania pertains to the human's divine illumination by the god, not to the phantasm of the terrestrial daemon. So when Apollo / Aphrodite / Ares are said to be the "parents" of a demigod, their terrestrial daemon phantasms are merely deceptions, though not maliciously so. Daemonic presence is nonetheless indispensable, as stated. Moreover, since daemons are mediators between gods and men, Eros and Erotike mania are mediated (in part) via terrestrial daemons, but ultimately directed towards the human / god.
I know this is off-topic or meta, but this is the kind of thread structure that can easily dissuade the normalfags from shitting it up. I endorse this kind of behavior even though I detest the childish source-begging.
I spent years on here trying to convince anons to read Iamblichus, and now somebody finally did! Makes me proud. Keep this thread bumped.Blue Eisenhower November
>>43005725OP here, are you using Taylors translations? I posted some Iamblichus quotes earlier, nice to see you're posting some too.>>43004793I'm aware of their duadic nature, this superior mode of energizing about one of these circles, either sameness or difference, for liberated heroes is their intellectively recursive expression of the limitedness and unlimitedness in the indefinite dyad. In effect this means they can either be male or female, as they were before becoming heroic, but in a more elevated sense, due to this resplendant resemblance to their formal superiority and divinity. You see there's something we're breezing by, the concept of inspirational enthusiasm and these divine alliances which can occur with psychical but also sensible subordinates due to the strengthening of inherent intellectual similitudes and ontic convergences. Heroes, from my knowledge, have such a divine sign about them present in this interiorly co-ordinate way, being the prophetic vessels and receptacles for whatever great divinity to which their essence ultimately inheres.>>43004797I'm unsure about this placement for them, it seems to me that these descriptions of "Archons" which Iamblichus details in Section II of De Mysteriis remarkably resemble the definitions Taylor relates that Proclus gave in Book VII of his Theology of Plato and also parts of the Chaldaen Oracles. By chance could you tell me why exactly you think these beings are somehow above the Nymphs and Satyrs but below Heroes? Is there any textual or perhaps logical evidence for that claim? Because in Section II Archons are called terrene and AFAIK everything to which the mundane category is be applied can be said to possess passivity. As in our earthly nature allows for us to become emotionally impressionable and temperamentally facing. Although for the Nymphics and Satyrics this completely conforms to their duties in their everlasting attendance of divine providence, so they do not act out of pure emotion.
>>43011096Really my question is aren't they just cosmocratic terrestrial spirits with some being transcendant and others materialistic, according to Iamblichus? Archons are subject to passion and incline towards generative processes just like Nymphs or Satyrs, I believe Iamblichus would sort those creatures under this category of "Archon" is what I mean. Also they, as Iamblichus states, and oversee certain locations on earth, exactly like a Nymphic or Satyric being would, I know Iamblichus never says they are Archons explicitly but it's rather obvious barring the overt mention. Why would Iamblichus leave such an important station in the daemonic hierarchy undiscussed? I figure that the answer is he doesn't and these are supposed to be seen as the Archontic spirits he mentions. Everything above heroic and including them is celestial or even supercelestial, so Nymphs could not be heroes or daemons proper or the angels or archangels who have intellectual domains. However, you might see that Iamblichus says in the beginnings of Section II that "daemons" are inspective of terrene natures. However one must realize this is in the context of the most remote terminations of the daemonic essence generally, which would be the archontic spirits, since they are classified as bipartitioned in terms of their ordered transcendance or materalistic self-defilement, the latter being characteristic of the very lowest orders. Archons are also said to oversee the distribution of "mundane forms" just like a Nymph or a Satyr who impart their intellectual semblences to a pond or forest for example. You likely accept Nymphics are terrestrials, but then archons are terrestrial too, and both are mundane but also sublunar and function in the exact same way without any real functional distinction, at least as far as I'm concerned or aware.
In Book 2 Sections 3-9, Iamblichus consistently lists archons between essential heroes and human souls. To me, this implies a wholly superior essence. Proclus says "These souls... have not an essence wholly superior to man", which then precludes archons. My assertion that the Minerva which appeared to Ulysses and Telemachus, Demigods, Socrates, Nymphs and Satyrs are all wholly equal in essence rests almost exclusively on this. The essence and habitude of Archons is ill-defined. I strongly agree that Archons and Nymphs are described in remarkably similar terms. Certainly there is no meaningful distinction that is explicitly mentioned. Moreover, I must correct myself, because previously I was under the impression that Nymphs most likely belong to partial rational souls. In fact, they are either irrational; or rationality does not apply to them at all (since they are technically perpetual attendants of the gods). By my logic, they would be closer to animals (i.e. below humans in essence), which also seems to contradict what is implied in Book VII Chapters XLV and XLVI. If Nymphs are indeed archons, I would assume they are hylic Archons, rather than cosmocratic ones. I think part of the confusion may arise because in the Chaldean and Christian traditions, Archons may be seen closer to Gods and Angels, depending on the system. And in the Gnostic system, Archons are seen as inherently malicious: Maybe Iamblichus and Proclus thought of Nymphs and Satyrs partly as superstitions and refused to comment on them too extensively for that reason. I am not sure.
>>43011096I do use Taylor's translation, 1995 edition by "The Prometheus Trust"
>>43011096Daemons by habitude act out an energy that is higher than what their own essence allows for. They do this by receiving secondary energy. Theurgist humans receive daemonic energy through divine illumination during their lifetimes. When I say "divine illumination", this implicates "divine mania" or "divine enthusiasm", which has four subtypes (Musical, Dionysian, Apollonian or Aphrodisiac). Moreover, some humans are fated to be demigods and receive divine illumination at birth. As for Nymphs and Satyrs, it seems they attain daemonic habitude through a sort of perpetual possession. Certainly the Nymph's essence is not daemonic, neither do they practice theurgy, nor is it explicitly stated that they sympathize with daemons or gods in any special way... Rather, they are "perpetual attendants of the gods". But so are essential heroes. So what exactly is it that lends Nymphs their daemonic habitude? Or, how is it that they achieve it? In the case of the theurgist, it is more clear. Besides that, there is also the first and foremost class of divine daemons who are gods by contact. I struggle to think of any other examples of entities which act out energies that are higher than what their essence allows for. All beings sympathize, but this seems to be distinct from the Nymph's upward habitude.
In Plato's Epinomis, he states that divine and visible stars are can be either immortal or have a very long but finite life. Also, he distinguishes them as being either rational vs. irrational. I believe that nymphs may be analogous to this. They are visible and divine, but they have a very long life and are irrational.>"...And so we should declare that various living creatures, also visible, ...being the race of the creatures of the heavens, which, we should declare, constitute collectively the divine race of stars, each possessed of a perfect body and the happiest and very best soul... each of them is either imperishable, immortal, and, by absolute necessity, wholly divine, or it is possessed of a life that is long enough for the particular creature, none of whom would ever require any more... there are two living beings of this sort, ...one seems to be composed wholly of fire, the other of earth. The earthy one moves in a disorderly manner, while the one composed of fire moves in perfect order. The one that moves in a disorderly manner should be thought of as unintelligent, acting for the most part like the living creatures about us. The one that maintains an orderly course in heaven should provide us with great evidence of being intelligent..."Plato, Epinomis, 981e-982b
Plutarch and Pindar also relate nymphs as having finite but very long lifespans:>"Hesiod thinks that with the lapse of certain periods of years the end comes even to the demigods; for, speaking in the person of the Naiad, he indirectly suggests the length of time with these words:>>Nine generations long is the life of the crow and his cawing,>>Nine generations of vigorous men. Lives of four crows together>>Equal the life of a stag, and three stags the old age of a raven;>>Nine of the lives of the raven the life of the Phoenix doth equal;>>Ten of the Phoenix we Nymphs, fair daughters of Zeus of the aegis.>Those that do not interpret 'generation' well make an immense total of this time; but it really means ayear, so that the sum of the life of these divinities is nine thousand, seven hundred and twenty years, less than most mathematicians think, and more than Pindar has stated when he says that the Nymphs live>>Allotted a term as long as the years of a tree,>and for this reason he calls them Hamadryads."Plutarch, De defectu oraculorum 11, 415C–FCleombrotus mentions men who live alongside nymphs. Though it reads as though he got scammed:>Then Cleombrotus continued, "...after paying large sums for information. It was near the Persian Gulf that Ifound him, where he holds a meeting with human beings once every year; ...The other days of his life, according to his statement, he spends in association with roving nymphs and demigods. He was the handsomest man Iever saw in personal appearance and he never suffered from any disease, ..."
Damascius comments on the "heights of the earth" as hosting long-lived beings:>The description of the heights of the earth..., plants filled with a life more divine and made of an ether-like substance, animals enveloped in beautiful, long-lived pneumatic bodies, ...>One wonders why men in that abode should be long-lived. If thanks to their godly lives they are ready to be lifted up to a higher plane, why are they not very soon given a place in heaven itself? — However, even in that region not all are seekers for wisdom; some are ‘carried up by Justice’ from our abode to that higher one who have ‘led a life of habitual virtue without philosophy,’ as he puts it elsewhere [Phaedr. 249a8; Rep. X 619c7-dl]. An alternative answer is that a society must continue to exist on that plane, too, and this is another duty to be fulfilled by souls, just as some souls in spite of their immaculate state have to perform the same task here below.>It should further be observed that of necessity periods spent by souls at higher levels are proportionately longer, and the time spent in the intelligible world is the longest of all.Damascius, Commentaries on Plato's Phaedo, §528–529
Proclus affirms that there is an intermediary rank between:>"As there is no vacuum then in corporeal, so neither in incorporeal natures. Hence, between divine essences which are the first of things, and partial essences such as ours, which are nothing more than the dregs of the rational nature, there must necessarily be a middle rank of beings, in order that divinity may be connected with man, and that the progression of things may form an entire whole, suspended like the golden chain of Homer from the summit of Olympus."Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XLIIHe also affirms that immortality is a on spectrum, (though this is not in relation to the intermediary long-lived nymphs):>"Hence, the primarily immortal and the mortal are the extremes. But the immortality of the mundane Gods, and that of partial souls, are the sub-extremes. And the immortality which is truly the medium between these, is that of demons. Hence too, demons are in reality entirely of a middle nature."Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter IX
David the Invincible affirms that long-lived nymphs are rational, but incapable of receiving knowledge, in addition to being mortal daemons.>"...[I separated him] from things that are not rational, such as irrational animals; and by saying 'mortal', from immortal beings; and by saying 'capable of receiving intellect and scientific knowledge', from long-lived nymphs—that is, from mortal daemons; for the long-lived nymphs are mortal daemons who live for many years; for they are indeed living beings, mortal, and rational, but they are not capable of receiving intellect and knowledge; for they do not learn, but possess knowledge and all science naturally inherent from within themselves. Human beings alone are capable of receiving intellect and knowledge, for man learns actualized knowledge..."David the Invincible, Prolegomena philosophiae, Praxis 7
So, it does make the most sense to place nymphs as archons as you stated. As for their rationality, they are indeed rational (according to David the Invincible). So my correction from earlier was (partly) undue. "Mundane" does not necessarily imply passivity. Most prominently, the "mundane Gods" (described in Book VII, Chapter I) are impassive:>"[The celestial Gods] then descend after the same manner for the safety of the universe, and connect with invariable sameness the whole of generation. They are likewise impassive and immutable, though they arrive at that which is mutable and passive."Thomas Taylor's Platonic Theology by Proclus, Book VII, Chapter XXFor example, the sun, which is Apollo. But also sublunary mundane Gods, such as Neptune (water).
