>>288356158
>Vegeta
Did you just not watch DBZ? He was a slave to the tyrant who genocides basically his entire race and destroyed his home planet. It’s a story of warriors, and canonically, Goku lets him live so he comes back stronger to fight him.

>>288356158
Just like in real life.

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>>288356426
That's true.
Corpos: *screws over their own employees and their own customers*
Everyone: <picrel>

>>288356158
Morality like justice is in the eye of the beholder, lurk 2 years before posting.

It's been that way from the beginning. Who the fuck wastes their life watching cartoons?

>>288356836
/co/

>>288356408
>and canonically, Goku lets him live so he comes back stronger to fight him
Gigachad moment

>>288356158
I think the worse cliche is the salaryman ending. You save the world but you get treated like a regular bum after you retire as a hero.

>>288356158
That's popularity power. Wolverine was a heinous killer but also so popular kids wanted to see him in their lunchboxes.

>>288356158
>Nishiki
I'm surprised you highlighted him and not Tsukiyama. I'm sure he also did fucked up things, but it wasn't as in your face as the stuff Shuu did.
He also kinda proved that he had some good in him for not chomping his gf.

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>>288356158
It's true i have seen this as well
The idea of justifying evil, "well they were only evil because they had a bad upbringing" kind of shit just make me sigh in annoyance. I have had a strong sense of justice and also a very good sense of detecting any hypocrisy. This makes me very sensitive to evil and malice.
I mean what good does "justifying" evil do? If someone is evil because they had a bad upbringing, what does the author want us to do with that info? Do they want us to internally forgive them and not want to see them brought to justice?
When i get a sob story "anon had been abused by his family since childhood, that's why he became a murderer/criminal" i just do
>"man that's pretty sad"
>"anyways, to the wood chipper"

>>288356408
>He was a slave to the tyrant who genocides basically his entire race and destroyed his home planet.
And he was still a gigantic asshole who was plotting to steal the dragon balls to become the tyrant himself. He was not a secret good guy. He was a maniacal bastard even if you ignore the filler shit. He straight up murdered his only ally.

>>288357314
Well generally the idea is that it's meant to serve as a reflection of how people become twisted. You don't always need to forgive but understanding what made a monster is the first step to preventing another monster from being made in the first place. You see someone with a bad upbringing or set of circumstances and you can pity them without condoning them. It's just meant to make you more aware of your own morality and potential to fall.

>>288356158
In Minene's case she got the evil dicked out of her. She was also the best girl in the show by far so it's fine.

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>>288356158
>anime
>morals

>>288357365
My problem is also how it's portrayed in media
>evil character is shown as an evil fucker who kills puppies and kittens in his free time
>the viewers/readers are shown only this
>then in a flashback arc we are shown how he was wronged/treated badly
>when the story comes back to the present, he's shown to be much less evil than before
>even though nothing has changed from the evil characters perspective, only that the audience got to know of his past
>now instead of killing kittens and puppies, he merely kicks or scares them away
That's emotional manipulation. That's literally a set up for making the audience/readers forgive him. Many manga take it even further and start the character as a literal serial killer and through consecutive flashbacks and softening cycles, the character is now actually better than the average person, feeding stray animals and helping the homeless
Except 5 days have only passed since the time he was actually killing the puppies. And the audience is expected to forget all that

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>>288356158
Everyone deserves a fourth or fifth chance

>>288356158
Shinto has no punitive worldview, that's probably why

>*trope is in every country that produces media*
>[obligatory daily off-topic propaganda spam]

>>288356158
This is literally the topic of hundreds of YouTube videos that get hundreds of thousands of views about Hollywood morality

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>>288356158
I mean, that's some stale examples.
Pic related and Black Angels both show how you can't just hand anyone mercy without consequences.

>>288356158
To be fair, isn't that kind of the appeal of Tokyo Ghoul? Most of the cast are man-eating monsters and it's set in a totally morally nihilist world, at least until it gets a surprise happy ending in the last five chapters.
Same thing is true for Mirai Nikki where God is basically a schizo trying to manufacture as much suffering as possible.

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Minene did nothing wrong.
>Future Diary
begone casual

>>288356158
This is why I'll never understand why certain characters are so hated when they're just you're run-of-the-mill average anime mass murderer.

>>288357314
Shut the fuck up, no one cares. Things like Good and Evil are all fake constructs anyway, same for justice.

From my perspective you are evil and deserve to be tortured and killed, but that ain't going to happen, so what's the point of getting mad about this.

>>288356158
Why do you have so much trouble with the concept of forgiveness? Jesus died for your sins.

I think you're just used to watered down morality plays where good and evil are clearly defined roles, and characters either fill one or the other.

Japanese media does have simplistic, morally-grounded media (a lot of shounen manga, e.g. fits that description), but you probably don't realize this because you seem to only think within your own personal moral value system with rigidly defined moral concepts.

>>288356158
i dont think anyone was taking mirai nikki seriously

>>288356158
Nigger, westoid media are even worse about this. Almost every capeshit villain got a redemption arc at some point. The only reason they do not stick are constant resets to the status quo.

>>288356158
It's not morally bankrupt, it's just not influenced by the US Hays Code. The Hays Code required you to kill off or punish evil/antihero characters.

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Pic related is the worst I've seen in all of media,kiddo is absolutely psychotic and before the story stabbed a woman in the eye and literally necrofucked her,pretend to team up with the good guys while betraying them like 4 or 5 times and in the end it's all good because apparently he had a shitty abusive father and the good guys take pity on him

>>288357314
>>288357500
You're missing the entire point of the story by applying Christian morality onto non-Christians. You're familiar with western media and assume that it means that it promotes the character and their actions.

In reality, it just shows that the conflict is multifaceted. It just shows that people with the same goal as you would do it for a different reason.

>>288356158
>>Vegeta in DBZ, but I'll admit that his redemption arc is certainly a very complex one
Didn't read the streetshitting jeet's shitpost OP, except this part my eyes instinctually zoomed in on.

OP is subhuman (Indian) and he has subhuman opinions on anime on top of that.

That makes Rajesh Kumar (OP) double subhuman.

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>>288356158
Don't know about the other two but for DBZ and Tokyo Ghoul it doesn't get more complicated than might makes right. Goku, as far as he cared, fixed everything and wanted to fight Bejita again because he likes fighting. No one was in any position to question or care beyond that. In Tokyo Ghoul you're an awful person (with like 2 exceptions) until you go along with Kaneki's heel-turn of the week, and since he ultimately wins more than he jobs he makes the rules in the end.
>Does this have wider societal implications about Japanese culture?
No, because your sample of 3 edgy shows for nerds and 1 action show for young boys is not at all comprehensive.
>Does Western media do this too and I'm just being biased?
It's probably rarer overall in mainstream Western media, but villains there also tend to die less and get locked up more often. Plenty of "why doesn't bartman kill the jonkler if he keeps breaking out and eating 1,000 babies" threads on /co/'s archive if you want to get anal about that.

>>288356158
Western media does worse, it depicts evil behavior as good and good behavior as evil

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>>288356158
Fiction is morally bankrupt. You will learn this as you get older. Its called: "entertainment".

>>288359351
There is nothing nuanced about characters like Nishiki, Minene, or Lucy. They are very clearly established to be pure, reprehensible, puppy-kicking evil. The type of villain that you eagerly want to see get their cathartic comeuppance... but then that comeuppance never comes and they're redeemed instead. That's not nuanced, that's just bizarre blue-balling mixed messaging

>>288356158

That´s only possible in shonen because main characters like Goku, namely well intentioned morons that can easily punish the evil doers. Most of the formerly evil characters are never fully reformed, they just fall in line to stay alive. Even Goku doesn´t forgive twice.

Then again there are characters that are not as forgiving like Saito from Rurouni Kenshin. He is willing to do evil to destroy evil.

>>288356158
>redeeming the sinners is good and just
>no wait I changed my mind eternal suffering only

>>288359581
I think it's a deconstruction of how foreign people would have different values from the norm, but I like it that way because it is interesting.

I hate Chinese anime because there is explicit morality in it and it makes the story extremely predictable as a result. Bad characters are always punished.

>>288356158
>Arguably Lucy in Elfen Lied
You've reminded me of when I watched it... and he fucking kisses him, he knows that she killed his family because she was jealous and he fucking kisses her

>>288359007
Subjectivism is running away from thinking. If you keep doing this, you will never have a strong stance on anything.

>>288358351
Yeah, that school was promised to her 3000 years ago.
The kids are just vermin

>>288359923
You can be subjective and have a strong perspective on things. Just give up on universalist logic. Accept that there are plenty of zero-sum games, and that you should fight for your own interests and the people you care about

>>288359488
At least someone here knows a thing or two.

>>288359923
He's entirely correct. The most morally crooked people are those who believe that their morality is objectively right.

There's a difference between western Christian redemption and what happens in anime
In Christianity you have to work for it. Even the worst enemy of Christ can be redeemed, but not without radical life changes and without accepting they might suffer a martyr's death down the line.
In anime, I don't even know if you can call it redemption. Sometimes characters will murder dozens of civilians, and everyone acts like it was just another Tuesday.

>>288360031
I agree. The road to hell is paved with good intentions

>>288359955
But now you have limited yourself to simple problems that involve yourself and what's close to you. Can you stand up for injustice against someone who's completely unrelated to you? What do you think about the trolly problem? Do you just not pull the lever and say 'none of my business'?

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>>288360052
Death is cheap. As long as you are mudering for the right side its okay. Also you can go too far, then the character can realize, "HOLY SHIT I'VE GONE TOO FAR!" and as long as they die fighting for the right side its fine. Weird out that works out.

>>288360031
But you can't fight them with your logic. You're withdrawing from the battle. You're not a bad person, but not a good one either. You're choosing to be a rock on the side of the road.

>>288360052
Depends a lot on which brand of Christianity, Catholicism and Calvinism differ on this
>>288360069
Not necessarily, it's beneficial to you and your loved ones to cultivate a world where they'll be helped and to punish bad people because they and their example are a menace. So helping others to an extent that's not a pointless sacrifice is encouraged. You must remind yourself not to be completely reckless because there are people who depend on you

most fiction tends to be "morally" bankrupt, although I don't believe in morality per se

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>>288360031
Morality isn't about people who are right its about people who are left.

>>288356158
I would rather take a mass murdering woman who even killed many children (not through abortion) as long as she is sexy and a virgin over a woman with a high body count as a wife.

Lucy dies at the end so I guess her sins caught up to her anyway

>>288360131
You have just rebuild morality on a non-theological basis. I think I get your point of view, but I also think there will be a time where you will struggle to reach a judgement without absolutes.

>>288356158
>>Vegeta in DBZ
>>>but I'll admit that his redemption arc is certainly a very complex one
... Was it complex?
Felt more like he had nothing else now, so he stayed on earth

>>288359653
>>redeeming the sinners is good and just
Who are you quoting?

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Take a look at Chainsaw Man, mainly part 2. It's the definition of what's wrong with modern Shonen. It's nothing and leads nowhere it just explosions in your face and nothing matters. It's just SEEEEEX!!! and brain dead hedonism but without the fun. It plagiarizes from all the best modern media from the west but without actually understanding why it was so good. All the zoomer eat that shit up cause they never experienced the GOATS and they just eat the regugitated trash from modern mangaka that doesn't give a flying fuck about their own manga and only writes bi-weekly to get their pay-check.

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>>288356158
>>288357314
It's a trend in the West too and it all goes back to the development of psychiatry in the early 20th century. Writers weren't satisfied with "just plain evil" characters anymore because that's boring. They'd rather give every villain a tragic backstory about how their dog died and that made them snap. Or reveal that they're really good guys deep down, just misunderstood or misguided. This goes both ways; heroes have gotten less heroic and more corruptible in this time too.

The problem with this is that stories need catharsis to be emotionally satisfying, and that's hard to do when every character is Patrick Bateman. When everything is deconstructed and tends toward the same shade of morally grey, it's hard to care about any one side at all. When moral ambiguity becomes the norm, clarity starts to feel novel and people crave sharp distinctions again.

Thankfully there has been a lot pushback against this recently, as people realize that not all conflict can be psychologized away and some people are just destructive assholes. Many writers are now trying to find a middle ground, portraying villains as understandable but not excusable. That's the heart of the issue really, some stories try to excuse villainy by playing the Freud card. Just because a character is psychologically realistic doesn't mean they aren't morally responsible for their actions.

>>288360277
Jesus

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>>288360282
>Take a look at Chainsaw Man, mainly part 2. It's the definition of what's wrong with modern Shonen.
The series starts off with the main character dead in a dumpster with very little hope at life. Your argument is meaningless. There are always exceptions to rules. Chainsaw man is fucked when it comes to morals you should learn that fairly quickly.

>>288359403
Akshually, a portion of India idolized Japan even though said country was fighting on the opposing side
After all "India" only came into existence in 1947, 2 years after the war. It was the British Raj up until that point

>>288360269
I didn't, though; people like Confucius and Epicurus did long ago.
Btw only a Sith deals in absolutes

>>288360297
We’re not talking about Jesus. Fuck redemption and fuck forgiveness. Certain people need to die. Not “suffer eternal torment”. I’m talking cessation of existence. A swift, efficient, logical removal of the problem

>>288356158
Go to church if you want to hear preaching.

>>288360345
>this

>>288360290
antiheroes and antivillains have been a thing since greek myths lol

it was 20th century writers like tolkein or Disney who subverted those into making positive/heroic stories because they didn't want people blackpilled during the world wars

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>>288356158
You triggered the hardcore midwit weebs by framing it as a west vs jap thing, so now they're defending the indefensible. The reality is it's just sloppy writing from overworked or hack mangakas, and western writers struggle writing this trope too.

>>288359925
>>288358351
Those kids were evil bullies. After the bullying issue got dealt with Yukki's social life improved and he even made some new friends.

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>>288356158
at least in anime there are redemption arcs unlike stupid ass comics
>nooo you cant kill the maniac sadistic fucker that dont want to change ! a hero cant kill
>if you kill a psycho you will become a retarded tyrant because you dont have any right to judge others!
>you must trust muh justice system because is le good, even if was show as corrupt because..... muh liberal democracy
>a hero must be a symbol of hope, it doesnt matter if his morals get more people killed!!

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>>288356158
The issue is with fan feedback and editors.
>introduce biggest piece of shit asshole imaginable
>fans start liking this asshole character
>editors notice and demand asshole character gets a bigger role
>asshole becomes a secondary main character while all their past crimes during the introduction are never addressed or get retconned

>>288361193
That's because manga has a definite start and end. Comics has reboots and timelines which would otherwise require new villains for each run.

>>288356158
A weird thing I've noticed is that a lot of villains have a "We did something wrong, but we believed SO PASSIONATELY in the cause that it meant something!" or a "I'll be evil ironically so that everyone will blame me, and after I die we'll have world peace!"
I think this is a really Japanese-only thing. I've never seen the equivalent in stories by other cultures. I don't know how else to explain it.

>>288361177
Minene didn't know this ex ante. She was just willing to kill random students if that would kill Yuuki

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>>288356158
>>288359853
>Lucy
Read the manga.

>>288361518
I've heard that in Japan they value "a sincere apology" more than "making amends." Like people who have interacted with customer service would tell you that in the West if you have an issue, the important thing for the business to do is to solve it while in Japan the important thing would be for them to make a display of apology even if the issue remains unsolved.
Like it's most obvious if you've followed some gachaslop at some point. You might have a catastrophic event that leads to immense server shutdowns and in the West the response is, "they need to get their shit together and get things running" while in Japan they say, "well they tweeted a sincere apology, I appreciate their efforts."

>>288361664
In the West it's more like "You're a racist / misogynist for not liking it."

>>288361653
How does the manga end for the two?

>>288362043
Lucy freaks out and tries to kill the world with her vectors while her body is melting from overusing her powers, and Kouta puts her out of her misery with a gun, fulfilling the promise he made with her back during the flashback to kill her if she ever becomes a mass murderer.

>>288361664
Japanese culture has changed a lot in the last 50 - 60 years. Apologies used to mean taking some form of life-changing atonement after the initial apology (think of Kenshin never killing again), and people were way more non-conformist.
Japanese trade unions were very radical in the 60s. Yet everything has changed into some performative apology thing to "preserve the social peace."

>>288362148
See this is why nornalfaggotry is lame.

>>288356158
Minene is hot especially when pregnant with five kids

>>288361518
Watchmen did it, but it had enough self-awareness to not pretend that the villain's actions were justified.

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>>288361025
>Listen to your mom, faggot
What a subjective argument. I listen to my mom. I've listened to my Grandmothers. I know what morals are. I like morals. Sometimes a series that has extreme morals are great. One Piece for example. Luffy won't die. I LOVE THAT. I want some series to empower the protagonist to actually live, its nice to not worry about such things. I love series that don't keep you struggling whether or not the protag will live through the finale, but thats the problem though right? You don't want that for every series. It would make you stop guessing. It would completely ruin the stories you are following. As much as I love taking that out, I still want that. I need it. Sometimes. The hero dies. The stories your mom or dad tell you are lies. There is no happy ending. The world sucks and need to coop with that.

>>288361518
it exists in the west as the clean wehrmatcht and lost cause myth

>>288356158
Anime is for kids, why are you surprised that it is not high art

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>>288361529
Have you read what happened at Japanese schools? Those kids deserved to die!

Jokes aside, this is just the author only figuring out what he wanted to do with his character later which leads to the weird situation of school bomber to children's hospital nurse.
According to the manga, Minene is supposed to be 18, but her age never shows up in guidebooks. Probably another thing the author ignored later in the manga.

>>288356158
>Does this have wider societal implications about Japanese culture?
no, unlike current westoids they understand a story is fiction

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NIHONGO MORALS SEKAI ICHIIIIIII

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>>288356158
They're sorry, okay, what more do you want?

>>288356158
>what the fuck? people like this evil character in this low quality weekly manga? well fuck me let's make him join the gang
It's not that hard anon

>>288363457
lol, nips are even more delusional than average westoid

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>>288356158
yeah, why are the Japanese like this?

>>288363592
>no u
last (You) for you

>>288359923
I would be more accepting of this argument, if self-proclamed objectivists were less likely to applaud any sort of treachery, violence, cruelty and degeneracy, as long as they are done by people on their side. In my experience, moral objectivists also are inordinately likely to be personally involved with shady and suspicious shit.

>>288357620
for some reason the shills today are in full force >>288361222

>>288356158
Does the inverse exist, where you have a bunch of villains who are pitiable and come off as redeemable but get put down hard?

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>>288356158
>A series will introduce just the most irredeemably heinous fucker ever, and then 3 scenes later all of their crimes are forgiven and they're a wholesome chungus now.
High Rise Invasion has the most absurd example of this I've seen yet. In the span of five or six minutes...
>Mayuko is introduced about to kill this innocent guy whose begging for his life and how he just wants to see his wife and kid again
>she's so fucking bloodthirsty that even when Yuri disarms her and has a gun trained on her, she just pulls out a knife and stabs him in the throat
>few minutes of talking and fending off a sniper later
>"I knew I was right not to shoot you. You aren't a bad girl, Mayuko. Let's escape together."
>IN THE SAME FUCKING ROOM, LESS THAN TEN FEET AWAY FROM HER STILL-WARM VICTIM

>>288363621
Nips' entire culture is about pretending about things to the point where they start believing in them anon. Like take idols or vtubers for example

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>>288356158
>>Arguably Lucy in Elfen Lied
Only in the anime. In the manga, she doesn't get forgiven, and then she dies in anguish.

>>288363593
BB spends as much time shitting on Walter as making him out to be the coolest dude by pointing out how he could have had everything, and still have been a good person, if not for his massive ego.

>>288363882
TypeMoon has a few.

Gunvolt, but that only has a one episode OVA. The rest of it is an LN/vidya. All the younger major villains are more morally confused than evil, and would rather their evil actions not be "necessary," but they're treated with the same sympathy as the psychos. It's especially bad, as the boomers who are either ordering them around or who they are lashing out at don't ever face repercussions and get to prosper and continue their crimes against humanity. I guess it's subverted, as the main character gets punished for it later on.

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>>288363882
I don't know about redeemable, as his goals aren't compatible with the main characters'. But you will find a lot of Anons (including me) arguing that he did nothing wrong.

>>288361025
>>288360304
Based
>>288362432
Cringe (didn't read), go do your homework, you 16 year old child

>>288364410
Not redeemable, but he was right.

>>288364354
Yeah, Gunvolt has a nasty habit of forcing you to kill pity bait characters. I wish it got a full anime so /a/ could whine about it.

>>288364354
I fucking hate BB, it's inconsistent boomer moralism. The answer it finds and the framing are almost as bad as Walter's worst impulses

>>288364823
I think Better Call Saul settles on Walter being a brilliant piece of shit.

>>288356158
Vegeta doesn't count. Dragon Ball was never serious, and Vegeta only stuck around by accident and was still a huge dick, acknowledged by everyone. They just didn't want to clean it up.

>>288358351
>>288361177
>>288361529
>>288363413
Noticed how one or two days after this terrorist bombed hundreds of children at Yukki's school specifically to get Yukki he can just go have a fun pool date with his girlfriend no strings attached? And then return to school iirc

>>288364354
>>288364823
>>288363593
When does BB NOT condemn Walter's wrongdoings? I don't even think he's that bad but it takes his crimes very seriously even before he gets a real killcount going. In fact I wager BB characters behave a bit too ethically to be truly accurate to reality, they take murder very very very seriously (as they should, but people don't)

>>288365231
It's not that BB doesn't condemn Walter, but how he frames him and how it pretends that he was 100% wrong about his family at the same time (despite the clear framing of the first episode). It's inconsistent in that it takes the most boomerish take of him to keep supporting his family regardless, and he's so badass and brilliant (but remember that he's bad). Instead of you know proposing something different like that, he should have tried to get into chemistry seriously again, or something more constructive in that line as a conclusion.

>>288365469
Take that he should keep supporting his family regardless*

>>288365469
I think it's pretty clear he doesn't *only* want to support his family (although he does), he's feeling a primal, almost animalistic, urge to POWER. It's way too late for him to make something in a honest chemistry career, he could've taken Elliott's job offer but he wouldn't be top dog and he also felt it was a pity offer when he mentioned "health plans" (otherwise he could've taken it).

I think the premise is as follows: men need a sense of purpose, some more than others, and Walt's been a sleeping animal for decades, which made these desires that much stronger. So when faced with death, he discards common sense to go for it and live before he dies.

Also, and most importantly, I don't subscribe to the idea that BB doesn't have a sense of morality because Walt's condemned for killing randos, criminals even. These characters all have a pretty tight and strict moral compass.

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>>288363909
>>Mayuko is introduced about to kill this innocent guy whose begging for his life and how he just wants to see his wife and kid again
>>she's so fucking bloodthirsty that even when Yuri disarms her and has a gun trained on her, she just pulls out a knife and stabs him in the throat
She sounds based as fuck. I might pick up that series for her.
>>288365134
Yeah, I thought it's retarded, but that's Mirai Nikki for you. At least Minene is awesome.

>>288363882
Witch Hat Atelier has that side character who sells magic glasses that let you look through people's clothes, he gets sentenced to have the entirety of his memories erased and live out the remainder of his life as a vegetable on some kind of prison island.

>>288365637
>I think it's pretty clear he doesn't *only* want to support his family (although he does)
I don't mean that he wants, but that the writer thinks that he should have really supported his family
>he's feeling a primal, almost animalistic, urge to POWER
Which the series both condemns and glorifies at the same time.
>It's way too late for him to make something in an honest chemistry career; he could've taken Elliott's job offer, but he wouldn't be top dog, and he also felt it was a pity offer when he mentioned "health plans" (otherwise he could've taken it).
>I think the premise is as follows: men need a sense of purpose, some more than others, and Walt's been a sleeping animal for decades, which made these desires that much stronger. So when faced with death, he discards common sense to go for it and live before he dies.
The problem is that it's not constructive or healthy to present the conflict as either he keeps supporting a family that hates him, or he becomes a kingpin.
>Also, and most importantly, I don't subscribe to the idea that BB doesn't have a sense of morality because Walt's condemned for killing randos, criminals even. These characters all have a pretty tight and strict moral compass.
I think that the moral compass is very inconsistent in a subtle way in how the series narrative presents Walters' actions and how it presents the actions of other immoral characters in a more positive way

>>288365134
Mirai Nikki is pure slop with very good Openings, entertaining action, and crazy girls.
What I remember is the surprisingly high number of girls at my HS who were like Yuno is literally me

>>288365869
>Which the series both condemns and glorifies at the same time.
I don't think 100% condemning this is the right call. This entrepreneurship is also part of what makes men worthwhile. The issue is that he couldn't channel it before it exploded.
>present the conflict as either he keeps supporting a family that hates him, or he becomes a kingpin
That's not what the conflict is. The conflict is "he can swallow his pride and die in silence and modesty but at least he wont have ruined everyone's lives and he'll be loved (because his family DOES love him)..... or he can gamble. He can just gamble for the greatest outcome where he takes back his life with his own two hands and dies with the same perfect ending except being content with what he did... but if he fails things will go really really wrong"

Basically I'm not sure I get your point, whenever Walt kills it's presented with a good amount of gravity, even when justified. Just like anyone else. Murder isn't cheap in this universe.

>>288365977
>>288365724
Mirai Nikki was slop but it was kinda funny slop.

>>288365989
>because his family DOES love him
I consider this a tremendous insincere retcon by the writers. The first episode completely ruins this narrative despite trying to change it with the seasons. I think that the initial framing is very important in works of fiction
>Basically I'm not sure I get your point, whenever Walt kills it's presented with a good amount of gravity, even when justified. Just like anyone else. Murder isn't cheap in this universe.
For example, it tries too hard to reframe Hank as a good guy
It seems like it is trying too hard to reframe everything that Walter sees as wrong with the episodes, as if the series had an initial direction that was overwritten completely as it progressed

>>288366239
Pilot episodes can be inconsistent with the rest, but even with S1 alone and in the first few episodes you can already tell he's loved. He was neglected by his wife and slightly looked down by his brother in law as "the nerd" but they still held some deep familial bond and love.

But anyway, to stay on subject, I find it interesting to see that murder is an absolute line that cannot be crossed in this, and not really in a "if you kill him you'll be just like him" way.

>>288365863
Was he an asshole? Typically, that gets you fucked more than the outright villainy.

>>288366349
>Pilot episodes can be inconsistent with the rest, but even with S1 alone and in the first few episodes you can already tell he's loved. He was neglected by his wife and slightly looked down by his brother in law as "the nerd" but they still held some deep familial bond and love.
It's just that I extremely dislike the whole writing while the show is airing thing
>I find it interesting to see that murder is an absolute line that cannot be crossed in this, and not really in a "if you kill him you'll be just like him" way.
It's a very arbitrary line to draw because if you read Monster. Isn't Tenma's refusal to kill what allows evil?

>>288366524
>It's a very arbitrary line to draw because if you read Monster. Isn't Tenma's refusal to kill what allows evil?
Yes, hence why I don't like that idea. Although in the case of Monster I recall Tenma either doesn't want to trouble innocents (like when he had Johan lined up for a shot in that forest) or just hesitates but still goes for the kill (unsuccessfully), like during that fire Johan caused. If you're just making it to be "let's keep our souls pure as long as possible and avoid killing as much as possible" I'm fine with it.

>>288359488
Senile boomer go to bed

>>288366619
I liked the end. At the end, the mundanity of reality, just the town's drunkard, completely destroys the Great Man Theory worldview that represents Johan and Tenma's savior complex

>>288365977
>>288365989
Slop would imply it's unimaginative, dime-in-a-dozen.
Mirai Nikki isn't exactly high quality writing but it sure is damn entertaining.

>>288356158
Minene never got any redemption for free, it was a survival of the fittest between all of them. She just got lucky finally into loving a good cop.

>>288367013
I won't say it's the most common kind of manga around but death game bullshit isn't exactly uncommon either, you've got a few from that genre.

>>288356729
I disagree. There is a form of morality that is scientifically and mathematically verifiable, and it's rooted in man's instinct to survive. Any behavior that is detrimental to survival is objectively immoral, with individual survival being the most basic, which is then superseded by the survival of one's family (specifically the survival of one's mate and progeny), followed by the survival of one's town or community, then the survival of one's nation (soldiers fighting and dying on behalf of their country are examples of this level of morality), with the survival of one's species at the very top (the Apollo astronauts exemplified this type of morality as they risked their lives to prove the possibility that humanity as a whole could become immortal as a species by spreading out to other planets/celestial bodies).

You know I think what gets me about a lot of villain redemptions is how often they're just not in the least bit sorry about what they did. A complete monster coming to a moral realization and seeking atonement is a good character arc. Maybe they can't be forgiven entirely but they're making an effort to do some good in order to make up for it. But not it's typically just "This character was popular so he's on your team now."

Worst example for me is the end of devil lady when devilman teams up with satan even though he's responsible for everything bad ever.

>>288356158
If you watch shounen, you're probably a irredeemably heinous fucker yourself, and should be put down. It's pure, gay cancer.

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What's the right choice here? The kid's like 1000 times stronger than you are.

>>288360282
Holy filtered. You are mindbroken.

>>288356158
>morality is when you punish people forever for doing bad things

>>288367728
Fujigoato does that to pajeets

>>288363882
gundam IBO

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>>288361430
And shonen manga have endless sequels

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>>288369437
>"I'm going to redeem everyone except for this crying space milf because.......I just won't ok"
>"The man who killed my parents? Yes I will forgive him"
Shit was so out of place and out of character. Damn that arc sucked so much.

>>288361316
Should have been the very first post. I dropped the manga after reading his shit backstory. One of the most cringe shit I ever read and to find out this nigger was popular makes it and everyone attached to it even more cringe.

>>288356426
>i know you where a ss member and designed the rockets that where used to bomb England and killed thousands of people
>HOWEVER, we've got a space program to run!
And so a American hero was born.

>>288360031
This. I've noticed a certain breed of people who think their opinions and viewpoints are not political because they are objectively correct.

>>288357446
Source?

>>288356158
Stories do not have infinite time to tell themselves. Especially in a medium like anime or manga, where every page or frame has to be drawn, costing production time and money. So a writer simply cannot dedicate themselves to telling a long running redemption story, especially for a side antagonist who is likely not even relevant in the far future. Sure, realistically a villain who feels remorse for their crimes should have a long period of introspection + working to make amends. (You could probably read some books where this happens because writing words on a page is easy and can be done in great quantities) But these are fictional stories where said villains are usually firing laser beams or murdering millions in a single day or something. Just have some suspension of disbelief instead of autistically picking out this one thing to be anal over.

This is also why redemption sacrifices are so common, because a villain giving up their life to save others is a quick and easy way to write a believable redemption without spending too much time on it.

>>288363593
Walter White literally could not be less relevant to this discussion. He's an antihero who devolved into a villain protagonist. We're talking about villainous antagonists having redemption arcs

>>288367908
Morality is about taking responsibility. You can't just rape 500 babies, say "whoops, sowwy!! *sheepishly taps index fingers together*", and expect to be let back into society

>>288371811
>Just have some suspension of disbelief instead of autistically picking out this one thing to be anal over.
You act like it's a petty thing, when the morality of the story is apart of the fundamental emotional core of the entire story. Its importance can't be overstated. You're basically saying "get over it, it's just bad writing". Do you just not have anything even resembling standards? What is there even left to critique, if you can stomach objectively bad writing?

>>288357314
>I mean what good does "justifying" evil do?
Demon Slayer I think is the only one that uses it as an example of the pros and cons of what it means to be Human and what it means to be a Demon, because in-series there is a distinct line you can either be forced across, or cross willingly. Notably it's the only series I can think of that it very much wants you to bring them to justice regardless. Tanjiro feels bad for demons who ended up where there are every time he learns of how they got there, but never once does he say "I'll let you go, so go be a better person." If you murdered someone as a demon there's only one way out, and it's in a puff of ash. Heaven and Hell can work on what comes next.

I think the best example of this is Upper Four, who was a pitiful ugly son of a bitch who also was just plain a bad person despite how weak and pathetic he seemed and pleaded to be, and he's one of the few who got Tanjiro full on pissed off and not feeling sorry for him regardless.

>>288357500
You got me curious and yep, there's one scene like this in Demon Slayer with Akaza where he's full on "I love killing people to death" and then he gets a flashback and all of a sudden he's a nicer person who's so sorry about that.

I feel like he's cheating though because he literally had his memories punched the fuck out of his head and when he got them back he was like "Wait a goddamn minute I had a wife!?" still goes to hell

>>288363882
Like Anon above me said, Demon Slayer. Bunch of Demons are people who got forced into the situation through some truly fucked up shit happening to them, like Daki's backstory, and some who easily could've turned it all around like Akaza once he got his memories back and even some like Tamoyo who did some messed up stuff but worked really hard to be redeemed, out of all the Upper and Lower Moons there's about half and half "You should not be here" and half "That motherfucker is a serial killer who has been waiting for this exact thing to happen and would've been just as bad if Demon's didn't exist".

They all die and go to hell regardless because cosmic karma in Demon Slayer does not fuck around if you kill someone. Tanjiro took a knife to the stomach just so a mind controlled train conductor didn't kill someone and damn himself to hell

>>288356158
>Musica from Rave master -thief
>Kuga from Inuyasha - Bandit
>Vegeta from DBZ - soilder
All can be morally gray and can be redeemd

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>>288356158
Yes

>>288372059
It can’t be overstated, the point is that the media the story is told through cannot feasibly do it justice. It’s like complaining you can’t fly through the air in an automobile. If you want to fly, get into an airplane. Do you not realize that the alternative to a shitty rushed redemption arc in a shonen plot is much worse? Nobody in their right mind would have the stories pacing screech to an halt so an entire arc can be dedicated to Evil McEvil’s redemption. Unless they were purposely writing an immensely long story like One Piece.

to be fair worst of all is "muh waifu died and i'm sad and angry at god for letting sad things happen so i'm gonna kill god and end the world".

>>288375360
>ugh people did bad thing so i'm gonna end all free will and individuality so bad things never happen again because we'll all be bland hivemind that spend our lives staring at walls.

>>288359315
The manga did it worse to him: it turned into a ghost story without any indication thereby fucking up his plot and his redemption arc.
Other issues were in the manga such as the asspull of the main villain's relation to one of the characters, Vatnigger propaganda, and covering up for the international Jew.
Btooom! was very much a missed opportunity. I thought the necrofucking in the manga version was well done though and based.

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If the villain is cute they're always redeemable. Killing Aura was a mistake.

>>288375360
>She died and with her died my last warm feelings for humanity.
It really is an overdone villain backstory.

Kaiba had the best redemption

>>288376062
>Get mind crushed to stop being a dick
>You're still absolutely an asshole to everyone but like, autistically rather than being an actual psychopath who will hire serial killers to hunt people down.

Deeply amusing that full on brainfucking him just turned him into a regular jerk, the only thing more powerful then an actual reality warping object of dark magic was his ego.

japan loves dindu characters because they see themselves as the dindus of ww2.

>>288376131
Thing is he wasn't THAT big of an asshole in the manga at that point. Cynical and narcissistic, sure, but he had a good core deep down, one he didn't care to show too hard but you can see in a lot of little moments.

>>288367908
Redemption is well and good but they often do it with people who already crossed a line morally and in ways that don't feel earned.

>>288376156
>Thing is he wasn't THAT big of an asshole in the manga at that point.
Wait at which point? Because the only time you could call him "Not THAT big of an asshole" was the very first duel before Death T when all he did was steal the Blue Eyes and smack Yugi with a briefcase and cheating in the game.

The part that really gets fucking glossed over is that Yami responded to this by trapping Kaiba in a card before Pegasus decided it was cool and having him experience being killed by duel monsters over and over again. For a WHILE. If anything taking this into account explains a lot about Death T and how very reasonable it seems to sick the guy with the chainsaw on him.

>>288376284
>Mindfuck someone into thinking they're literally dying to duel monsters repeatedly while they're trapped in a card, to the point where they have nightmares about it
>HE FUCKING COMES BACK FOR ROUND 2
>Loses again, gets PUT INTO A COMA this time
>ROUND THREE BITCH
I no longer question movie kaiba hunting Atem into the afterlife because this man does not fear death nor hell itself coming to claim him

>>288376284
I mean Duellist Kingdom and Battle City Kaiba is mostly chill.

>>288376368
The point where he got the darkness literally ripped out of him so hard he was braindead and in a coma that doctors said he'd never wake up from? I mean yeah, he only killed like 2 people after that, but this is post the Manga equivalent of Mind-Crush.

Dude would still be a in a wheelchair being pushed around by a nurse I guess for funsies if he didn't wake up to save his Blue Eyes waifu from getting NTR'd.

>>288376401
Yeah, that's the most prominent Kaiba version. I meant his Battle City final duel showed the last reasons behind his angst and he managed to walk forward. Yes he still hunted Atem in the afterlife but it was closer to a mourning process than his old ways.

>>288376418
Agreed, if anything the anime kind of did him a bit dirty because in the manga he keeps his begrudging respect for Joey up till the end, there's no duel where he goes back into insulting him to his face. On the flip side anime gave him the scene where he respects Yugi instead of Atem more so dunno how that works out character wise.

>>288376441
He only starts truly respecting Yugi in DSOD canonically I think. Not that he disrespects him, in fact he doesn't make light of him, but his eyes are set on Atem and when Yugi refuses he says it himself in DSOD, "I'll make you understand you're just a vessel". He doesn't think that 100% but it shows his goal.
And yeah in the manga, even in Duellist Kingdom it doesn't feel like that he shits on Joey that much. He calls him deadbeat but it actually looked like he had a good time duelling him and it ended with him making a point that he'd defeat Pegasus. No scene where he manhandles Joey like in the anime either.

>>288372414
Demon Slayer is as hardcore as an evangelical when it comes to that, to the point where even the Anime had to change things for Daki's ending. Even they were like "Wait you're telling me a little girl is almost raped, then set on fire, and her big brother is given exactly one way to save her and it's to utterly ruin her mind in madness and we're treating this like it's her fault?" At least the anime said she CHOSE to go to hell with her brother to atone for all the stuff she did, manga just said "Murdered people? Hell. You can go with your brother though. See you in a weirdly dark omake where the demons recall being killed!"

It really does not matter that a newly formed demon loses their mind and going on a rampage they can't control, something not a single character managed to do in the series, according to its lore if you actually manage to kill a human and specifically a human you're going to hell no fuss no muss on that one. Weirder still it's the only thing actually described as being a reason, like we don't get any "I've stolen all my life" people in hell. Even killing demons, including and especially freshly formed ones who haven't hurt anyone yet, is A-Okay, no karmic problem there! In fact everyone agrees because then they'll go to heaven. Like actual heaven. Or reincarnate if they feel like it.

>>288376522
>Or reincarnate if they feel like it.
That part is where it gets fucky because it's implied Yorici wasn't allowed to find peace and reincarnate until Muzan was killed. Why? Because he failed. That's it. He gave it his all, 100 percent, and came up short because Muzan literally hid under a rock until he was sure his sleep paralysis demon died of old age, and the universe just cosmically treats it like Yorici let him go or did some weird fuckup that caused it to happen and thus he can't come back for literally hundreds of years. He could have theoretically, Muzan seemed convinced Tanjiro could've been him, but he didn't till the epilogue.

Very inconsistent morally.

>>288356158
Anime also suffers from the same mook problem that Hollywood suffers from, where the hundreds or even thousands of henchmen working for the villain aren't really people and can be killed en masse without remorse, but the villain responsible for it all is a person who shouldn't be senselessly killed and should preferably be redeemed.

I tend to drop shit that treats mooks as mooks unless I'm enjoying it ironically like Spec Ops Magical Girl Asuka. Even the villains aren't really people in that one.

>>288376635
How often does that actually happen, though? There's not a lot of examples really. Anime fucking loves killing the people responsible for the actual deaths. Even in the examples given in OP like Elfen Lied or Vegeta, they go on a "Big bad has to die" thing. Vegeta never killed anyone on earth and survived, killed some Namekians and got brutally killed at the end of that arc. Sure, he came back, but he had to get a drawn out execution at the hands of the guy who ruined his life before he did. Just to further give an example, Goku outright did not want to kill Burter or Recoom, Vegeta did, he even spared Ginyu, so it's not even a case of Goku being okay with killing mooks but not the one responsible.

What examples do we really have of the major franchises? Naruto didn't even kill the guy he exploded with a shuriken, Luffy MAY have only killed Kaido and not a single one of his mooks, and Ichigo spared pretty much everyone he fought except the big bads who he went for the kill on. Anime avoids this problem pretty well.

>>288376737
Gunsmiths Cats 100%
That psycho NTR mob bitch got to live while nearly every henchman was killed.

Also elaborate on Elfen Lied. In the manga the Diclonii who bust out of the Research Institute are treated like fucking zombies for The Agent chick to shoot.

>>288376790
>Also elaborate on Elfen Lied.
I admit my memory is fuzzy on the anime, never got around to the manga, but didn't Lucy brutally kill everyone on the bad guy side by the end? Sure, she mowed down mooks, but she absolutely did not single them out in response to what happens when you point a gun at her, or are a scientist who happens to be in the vincinity.

>>288356426
There's literally some cartel guy who killed hundreds who became a YouTuber

>>288376842
If we're counting Lucy as the protagonist then I'm not really sure the mook problem applies since she's also the villain. Her carelessly murdering hundreds of mooks doesn't matter when she also murdered hundreds of innocent young women; people seem to misremember it as just the dog abusers and Kouta's dad and sister, but she let her schizo DNA voice talk her into weeding out the competition and being the progenitor of a new race by killing a shitload of young women in a relatively small area, which allowed Kamura to find and capture her. Admittedly that was only in the manga and OVA, but even in the main series she casually kills some girl just walking down the sidewalk at night, I think after she killed that school Professor.

The mook problem isn't so much a problem when the 'protagonist' doesn't give the shit about the lives of the named antagonists or kills completely innocent people too.

>>288356158
>redemption arcs
>implying minene needs to be redeemed in the first place

>>288376916
>If we're counting Lucy as the protagonist then I'm not really sure the mook problem applies since she's also the villain.
Ehhh... that's debatable, there's an actual antagonist threat in the series that's just as bad as her if not worse, she's not "The villain", she's the protagonist. Don't mix up "Isn't good" with "Isn't the focus of the story". Kota is very much a side character.
>Her carelessly murdering hundreds of mooks doesn't matter when she also murdered hundreds of innocent young women;
Among others, like people fleeing in terror of her bloodsoaked rampage...
>The mook problem isn't so much a problem when the 'protagonist' doesn't give the shit about the lives of the named antagonists or kills completely innocent people too.
This was specifically in response to someone naming it a problem when it's listed in OP's examples, though, it still is evidence that is contrary to the "Mook problem where the villain responsible for it all shouldn't be senselessly killed or preferably redeemed". Lucy is all for senselessly killing the people responsible and could probably use that redemption herself.

>>288364354
>>288362148
You forget she reincarnates and meets the MC again, who's been going to a place important to them since she died.
Her only punishment from a "narrative" sense is that she lost the bowl.

>>288376790
>That psycho NTR mob bitch got to live while nearly every henchman was killed.
I seriously thought you meant Radinov for a second there and was like "No she fucking died and I don't think she got her NTR scene anyway"

Come to find out there is a weird BDSM mob boss in the manga who does indeed steal a girl from Rally so shut my mouth on that one.

>>288376737
Funny enough does Madoka Magica count? There's exactly one character who's got the balls to open fire on the one making the "Mooks" but the namesake of the series keeps protecting him.

Finally, a genuinely good thread on this Godforsaken board.

To answer your question, no it's not morally bankrupt. It's just a cheap plot device.
Does it have any implications about Japanese society? No it doesn't. Every Mongoloid Asian nation has the same moral framework. Some, like the Chinese, don't even believe in redemption because of the Means to an End mindset they have.

How long is this faggot thread gonna stay up? When you grow up you realize that karma and fairness don't really exist in this world. The worst people you know are thriving and living happy lifes while the best people are often suffering in agony. That's just how the world works. Why would you expect fiction to be so different, you morons?

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>>288356158
Everyone likes a fun, hot psycho.

Popular characters get redemption arcs so they can continue to be part of the story, this is not even a Japanese thing.
The only reason this doesn’t happen in western capeshit is because their villains can be recycled forever and no one cares, there’s no hard continuity. Western fantasy is full of ex-villains turned friends.

Yes anime “forgives” more ridiculous shit but that’s just the medium being highly exaggerated

>>288375360
>>288375414
>ugh humans are a plague, the worst species ever, they need to be eradicated because they grow, multiply, consume resources until they ruin the environment while also destroying rival life forms that compete with them for said resources
>just like practically every other living species on the planet

>>288361316
I don't really get why Japs like bullies so much? Were they all bullied themselves to they self insert into the bully in media to compensate? I'm not eve joking rn, bullies there are basically universally liked despite being absolute piece of shit , Bakugo literally bullied someone for a decade who at one point was his friend for no other reason than being basically disabled and for wanting to help him . Hell even later when he wants to become a 'hero' , all that means to him is power, he never cared about other or wanted to save them, the only reason he didn't become a villain was because in his mind a villain is a loser who always loses to the hero .

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vegeta acknowleges that hes a horrible person and that he loves his family and friends, then sacrificies his life to try and save them. anybody can be redeemed no matter how bad they are, it's a nice message.

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>>288377827
>anybody can be redeemed no matter how bad they are

>>288377827
That’s why I said Vegeta is a complex case. I have a total acceptance rate for the “death by redemption/heroic sacrifice” trope where the villain redeems himself by sacrificing himself. The reason it works is because it’s the villain accepting the fact that they don’t deserve happiness. Their life is forfeit, so they may as well use it for something. Vegeta is a very unique case where he lives in the world of Dragon Ball, where death is meaningless, so he basically got to have his cake and eat it too. Also, Vegeta didn’t just sacrifice himself. He sacrificed himself even after being explicitly told that his soul would burn in Hell forever, making it the most selfless thing imaginable

>>288377926
>might makes right titcow who would have conceded to being a breeding sow for life if Tatsumi just beat her ass once.
literally the most redeemable villain posted in this thread, her canon ending is still bullshit.

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>>288378079
>literally the most redeemable

>>288378124
>Quincy
Why didn't she dedicate herself to repopulating her near-extinct race? Easiest way to make up for causing death is by creating life.

I don't give a fuck what you Americans think. The vast majority of you, are hoodweebs who are only pushing for more blacks

>>288377827
>anybody can be redeemed no matter how bad they are
This reminds me of a book I read a long time ago where the protagonist travels through the circles of hell with a guide named Benito. Eventually when he gets to the exit from hell it turns out this friend is Mussolini, who the author then explains wasn't so bad so he gets to go to heaven too.

>>288357314
>I have had a strong sense of justice and also a very good sense of detecting any hypocrisy. This makes me very sensitive to evil and malice.
The last person I've had long discussion about morality on the Net who made claims like that, ended up fully endorcing any and all conceivable warcrimes. First in the context of fiction, and then in reality. As long as they were committed by side he associated with with, of course.

>The idea of justifying evil, "well they were only evil because they had a bad upbringing" kind of shit just make me sigh in annoyance.
The idea that there are no bad people, only bad upbringning and bad circumstances, is quite logical. And in the most fictional worlds it is also objectively true, as far as the story is concerned, because these worlds do not have a higher moral authority, even theoretically. In real life, there are two main reasons it is impractical: first, very few people can cnahge their nature, and then only very slowly, by many years of determined work. And second, a lot of people would lie about their ability and willingness to change, if that can allow them to get ouf the jail. However, in fiction neither is a problem. We have windows into characters' souls, and most major villains possess iron willpower.

>>288360290
>It's a trend in the West too and it all goes back to the development of psychiatry in the early 20th century.
No, it is a much more recent thing, and it goes back to the fact that Hays Code/Comic Code Authority stopped being as excruciatingly binding as they were. Unfortunately damage was already done, and several generations of people almost completely incapable of thinking outside of the hero/villain dychotomy, even if on the surface they rebel against it, were born, and their writing heavily infected anime as well, to keep discussion relevant to the is borard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoILLfeu-s
You should forgive and love your enemies, brother (especially if they're evil women).

>>288356158
Jesus christ that lost. Have you tried not watching absolute fucking garabge for once in your life

>>288378219
Which nationality are you larping as today, thirdie?

>>288356158
no, (you) have a flawed and excessively punitive moral compass

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>>288363485
Right? Bort's hangers-on won't make themselves.

how come OP watches like 3 shit ass shows and then decides all of Japan in real life works exactly like the shows
Yeah man, every guy in America is Walter White and makes crack cocaine in their camper van.

It's a story, you dipshit

>>288377005
>there's an actual antagonist threat in the series that's just as bad as her if not worse
The villains in the series only aim to facilitate the goals of her own schizo DNA voice, that being replacing humanity with Diclonii. They only differ from her in that they believe they are/want to become Diclonii themselves, while she either doesn't give a fuck about them or views them as just humans needing replacement regardless.
Without Lucy there isn't a threat of replacing mankind with Diclonii, and without that the villains don't have an achievable objective.
>This was specifically in response to someone naming it a problem when it's listed in OP's examples, though
That wasn't me, and I wasn't specifically doing that. OP's example simply reminded me of the mook problem, which is similar. Gunsmith Cats being chief in my mind as an example.

>>288377005
>>288381082
That WAS me*

>>288380028
Eurocuck morality. I bet you'd give a child murderer no more than a 20 year sentence

>>288381028
If I was binging tons of movies from Belgium, and every single one of them happened to involve the main character molesting a kid, I think getting suspect towards Belgium would be fair. Pop culture is still culture. A good culture isn't just gonna have a habit of lionizing objectively evil characters for no reason

>>288356158
Another reason why SnK's ending sucked (no redemption), also why Korean media is detestable. I should love people more. Like the Japanese.

>>288359351
western media hasn't been Christian for 100 years

>>288377926
>killed herself at the end to be with her lover forever

>>288357314
Evil should be fought and defeated with no compromise, and evildoers should meet justice. This is an obvious baseline.
However, people are not born evil, so evildoers themselves are not the "evil" you are trying to estinguish. Anyone can become evil, and it's good to learn how and why for a few practical reasons:
>studying and preventing wuch things to happen again (already said by someone)
>giving a way for the evildoer do abandon evil
Let's see the second. What truly defeats evil is not fervour alone: that's simply what you need to use to unveil and stop the evil. No, an uncomfortable and somewhat annoying truth is that ultimately in order to defeat evil, you need forgiveness. You have to leave the evildoer a solid and authentic way to get out of there, to abandon evil himself. Otherwise he will cling to evil as you corner him into it: once death sentence is decided, he will try to use evil to escape it. The final strike to uprooting evil does not come by the sword, but by patient and annoying gardening labour. Otherwise evil will have claimed another.
And I'm not saying that killing evildoers is always an "evil" act: in the context of most stories, often it's even necessary. But you should still try everything you can.
That said justice must still be served, for the wellbeing of both the victims and the culprits: otherwise the feelings of hatred and revenge in the victims will not be appeased, as if society just let slide this injustice (which would be evil); and not even the culprit would be able to obtain true forgiveness, because he has never atoned properly.
There's a reason why the scale is the symbol of justice, and this is also the reason why if western judges don't stop being retarded, trust in the State will be eroded further, opening gates to actual evil. Judges must learn that it's not their job to redefine morality, scorn or forgive: they must administer justice, so that then AFTER forgiveness may actually be effective and destroy evil.

>>288381596
>"if you kill the bad guy they win"
Not but i do get your point, i just don't agree with it much
I find the entire judicial system a sham. You have essentially individuals who dispatch their own individual personal brand of "justice". So if a fucking bleeding heart judge gets the case for a mass murderer or other criminal, even if the entire normal society are large wanted the criminal to be executed, they instead get a slap on the wrist. That's how judicial system allows injustice to thrive
Jury doesn't matter.
The solution is to go to a voting based system where common citizens take the decision. Not some boomer judge with state provided security, chauffeur and a dozen corruption cases of his own