Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastard. Would be much more recommendable and immensely popular as well, probably
>>288496361I'm baffled by this too. Literally just crop out the beginning and replace with a burning village and rape to fit the sexual trauma or something and it would IMMEDIATELY... become just generic minimally above median fantasy wish fullfillment you'd find in the barnes & noble dollar everything bin.But I guess catering to low IQ pedos whose ideas of sexuality and love have been warped to the point where they apparently discover great emotional depth in it is of far greater concern to the author of this slop than actually writing a decent story.
>>288496361>betterno>much more recommendable and immensely popularyesthere are other actual problems with the story if you aren't a chronic twitter user though
>>288496361good. I'm glad you and a bunch of other faggots got filtered. stay out.
Need me a Roxy wife.
>>288496361Mushoku Tensei at least dares to make it's MC deeply flawed. Not in some cool or edgy way but a real piece of shit, a waste of oxygen, an example how to not live your life. We see him in his 30's skipping his parents funeral to fap to some loli porn. Any chances he had to improve himself got wasted because he was too stuck in his self-pity. There is nothing redeemable about him other than that he spend his last breath saving a bunch of random teenagers from being trucked.You rarely see a MC THIS bad. He may not be the most likeable main character, especially at the start, but he sure is an interesting one.
>>288496775>Literally just crop out the beginning and replace with a burning village and rape to fit the sexual trauma or something and it would IMMEDIATELY... become just generic minimally above median fantasy wish fullfillment you'd find in the barnes & noble dollar everything bin.That's just Goblin Slayer.
>>288496361>Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastardNah, the issue is he's a pedo who keeps being a pedo without even trying to redeem himself.
>>288496361>Human trash wish-fulfillment would be better if the self-insert wasn't human trash.You miss the entire point of why this series exists.The author of Mushoku Tensei got so assblasted by the edgy satire manga portraying Rudeus exactly like he is, he threatened to sue them for (((copyright violation)))
>>288497320The fact he died saving random schoolkids might kinda redeem him already desu. His main flaw wasn't that he was bad/evil, but that he was useless and didn't do anything with his life until the very end. And that's what he's "redeeming" in MT if you want a redemption angle.
>>288496361It's the author's self insert in a web novel from like 15 years ago. Being a lolicon is a major plot point through the whole series.
>>288496361>Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastard.No because most of the fans are fat ugly bastards and it gives them false hope that they will get a second chance.
>>288497807The redemption also doesn't happen immediately. It takes a while before he is able to overcome his fear of going outside, he mostly apathetic to conflicts like slave trade, sensitive and easily hurt like with the depression arc, didn't fully appreciate his isekai parents until it was too late.The wish fulfilling part is how even a sack of shit like him is able to self-reflect and become a better person with the second chance he got. He realises if he keeps getting stuck in self-pity he will lose those around him again and will become all alone. People always complain how isekai main characters are boring wish fulfilment Gary Stus. Here we have former fatso that gets depression and ED after being dumped once and now people are still complaining.
Generic boring rinse and repeat bait thread.
>>288497865there are zero fat ugly anime-watching bastards who are capable of having hope, whether they enjoy second chance anime or not
The main character being a groomer pedophile was definitely detrimental.But then also the story never went anywhere, the characters all acted retarded and everyone was a shithead.
>>288497320Re:Zero did flawed protagonist better
>>288498109How is Subaru flawed? Re:Zero is just suffering porn and sperg out.I do get Subaru's charm though. He's an annoying tryhard, but the fact that he tries in spite of all the suffering is what makes him endearing. Or atleast, that's his character gimmick. I'm not saying its perfect but Rudy is a character that's flawed by design, Subaru wasn't as irredeemable as him.
>>288498109Subaru isnt even that flawed hes just a good kid thrown in torture porn isekai
>>288497320>We see him in his 30's skipping his parents funeral to fap to some loli porn.This only makes him flawed if you operate by normalfag standards
>>288498214Elaborate.
>>288498171>How is Subaru flawed?He's cucking like 5 women at the same time (so far).
>>288498247NTA, funerals might help some people deal with their grief, but don't project your methods of coping onto everyone else as some kind of retarded societal norm where you are to be judged if you step out of line. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not going to one, unless you're in an awkward situation where you're someone else's ride and it's important to them.
>>288498109>Re:Zero did flawed protagonist betterYou know that's not true. Bad timeline really shows how shitty Rudy gets when everything goes south.
>>288498109Too bad rezero is fucking unwatchable shit
>>288496775>become just generic minimally above median fantasy wish fullfillment you'd find in the barnes & noble dollar everything bin.kek what, changing it to that generic shit is what would make it bargain bin. why does this series make retards seethe so much?
>>288498294>being a parasite to your family until you're 34>not going to your parent's funeral when they fed you all your life without you doing anything>even gets found out you're fapping to your older brother's niece bathing that you recordedMaybe not going to a funeral is acceptable when its a decent person with valid reason, but Rudy's record isn't decent in the slightest. Its not just that one thing that makes him bad, he has a full checklist of them.
>>288498350That's other shit not related to the funeral. Social pressure remains the only actual reason to go, not genuine feeling for the deceased.
>>288498350The parents never did anything wrong. At worst they've spoiled Rudy too much and indirectly encouraged him into becoming a hikki NEET.
>>288498326God I hope they go hard on Oldeus, get some real duality of man absolute scumfuckery. Rudy's got nothing on him
>>288498337That's what having a real flawed protagonist is like
>>288498380Him not going to the funeral means he doesn't give a shit which makes him crappy as a person. And his brothers raided him only to find out he's masturbating to child porn of his own relative in the day of the funeral. He was beyond saving by then.
>>288498214Sybau incel, we're on a normalfag website now
>>288498398Nah, if you want flawed in Isekai you have Subaru from RE:zero, where no matter how much validation he gets from his friends after his achievments he keeps thinking he doesn't deserve to be loved due to his own crippling low self esteem.Rudeus is just a fat neckbeard pedophile who once he got reincarnated kept being a disgusting grooming pedophile manipulator with ZERO character growth for the entire duration of the novels, which are just an advertising for a future story that will never be since it's just an excuse by the author for why his story is so inconclusive and full of plot holes.
>>288498350>not going to your parent's funeral when they fed youI don't think this changes anything. Unless their dying wish was for their children to throw them a kickass funeral. If the rest of the family that wanted to hold a funeral was really struggling with organizing it, it might be reasonable to expect him to put on his big boy pants and deal with it depending on the family in question. But considering (not that it's not his fault) they basically stopped trying to interact with him, I'd say this isn't an exception there.I'd argue that pressuring someone to attend a funeral is what needs a valid reason, not the other way around. "They were good to him" isn't a reason to go play charades so that the people still alive can believe that you've done something right. In what way is that reciprocating anything?>fapping to your older brother's nieceObviously, this is where he's done something wrong.>>288498402>Him not going to the funeral means he doesn't give a shitNo, it does not.
>>288498484>Nah, if you want flawed in Isekai you have Subaru from RE:zero, where no matter how much validation he gets from his friends after his achievments he keeps thinking he doesn't deserve to be loved due to his own crippling low self esteem.That's just being Shinji Ikari retardedSubaru's character gimmick is just he's an annoying tryhard that tries through all the suffering porn in Re:ZeroMeanwhile, Rudy is actually a flawed protagonist by design just see him at >>288498326 and you'll that's his very own character gimmickAnd you're just a Re:Zerofag whose bias to Subaru and can't see things objectively
>>288498507So you think that Rudeus from Earth is acceptable? Well, he's not really a murderer so he's not irredeemable in that sense. But this is just a series catered to the otaku, so he's flawed in relation to that, obviously. If you want to actually go ballistic, then obviously you'll have to churn out a totally irredeemable protagonist but I doubt that you can even print that out in media entertainment
>>288498511>duuuuuuude! old MC being a scumbag is totally KIIIIIINO>ignore the MC being a PEDOPHILE! that's just a minor flaw!>you're just biased towards rezero! despite me defending pedos!Sure thing, anon. A flawed protagonist needs to meet the absolute lowest criteria of him at least trying to correct his ways, something Rudeus never did in 20+ volumes.
>>288498560Nah. I just like Rudy's character gimmick better than Subaru.Subaru is just flawed in that way that he's a cringe sperg in suffering porn, so I can't be that into it
>>288498549I don't think spying on your niece is acceptable. I agree that you can't make him worse, people already have a strong enough reaction to what we got.
>>288498597>cringe sperg in suffering porn vs literal pedophile who never tried to improve himself in wish fullfillment escapism slopI mean, you do you, it just says a lot about you as a person and I shudder to think at what the police would find in your SSDs.
>>288498637NTA, but Subaru is just deeply uninteresting as a character. Being retarded is not a problem I struggle with. Rudy's problem though is courage and agency. That's something that is understandable and relatable to anyone.
>>288498612The funny thing is that all the author had to do was to have Rudy have realize that abusing kids is wrong and he should't have done that. But that was too difficult for him lmao. It's a shame as the worldbuilding in MT is genuinely nice, but the MC being so shit and one dimensional just ruins everything.
>>288498560It sounds like you don't like flawed protagonists.I wonder if it's a christian/puritan hangup that Rudy is the antichrist because there's no overt Punishment and Redemption to cleanse his sins. So him living a better life sends them into a rage since it's perceived as unearned.
>>288498637Sure thing Re:Zerofag. Subaru will never be as cool as Rudy btw
>>288498597Is this Pre-LN fan art?
>>288498637>it just says a lot about you as a personOh brother, please kill yourself. Faggot.
>>288498683I do like flawed protagonists, but being a proud pedophile like Rudeus isn't the same at all. Only someone with the same mental illness as him could try to argue against this. >I wonder if it's a christian/puritan hangup that Rudy is the antichrist Anon, being against pedophilia isn't a puritan concept. How fucking low are you if you even have to go there?>So him living a better life sends them into a rage since it's perceived as unearned.What did he do to try and correct his flaws? Nothing.
>>288498339>or somethingThe ESL didn't notice?Here's your (You) btw.
>>288497335And Goblin slayer is an infinitely more wholesome and relatable character then the pedophile protagonist of that series
>>288498402For him going to the funerals isn't just to pay respects or grieve like some normie relative, if he goes there it will mainly be about HIM specifically, he will be confronted about his situation given his parent's death with remarks or looks full of scorn and judgmental-ism. It's like entering pack of wolfs as a sheep, it's goes against your instinct of self-preservation. It's immeasurable pressure for someone who is too far gone from self-isolation.
>>288496361Mushoku is just the usual wish fullfillment slop like every other isekai
>>288498703>almost 12 years agoLooks like it
>>288498711I accept your defeat, pedophile.
>>288498762(You)
>>288497335Perhaps but that was only on example of what a formulaic but mostly intellectually inoffensive backstory might be.Manga tends to be simplistic in general because of the workload involved so maybe this is just autistic nitpicking in context of the medium but after binging a lot of classic fantasy lately I just struggle to see any, I don't know, plot here.
>>288496361>Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastard.Unironically correct. Just make it a native fantasy story. It's kinda funny that diddy tensei tards chose that the hill they'll die on is them defending Rudeus being a nonce.
>>288498737Rudy is more handsome though. Tho GS's face was never shown but he's probably handsome as well, but he can't be as handsome as THIS
>>288498779>immediately proves me rightI already accepted your defeat, subhuman freak.
Yo why are Re:Zerofags even sperging out here? Rudy is cooler, deal with it
>>288496361LOL its straight up the opposite , thanks to rudeus tourist and normalfag and their retarded take stay away from the showGaining too much popularity is not good ,you have this proof with a lot of media alreadyMushoku tensei is alredy popular enough , bigger than that and it will attract the powerscalling schizo retard , no thanksName ONE media already popular who got better after getting a new type of popularity some people talk about re zero , guess what ?recently a meme got popular on tiktok (aura monster) and attract cringe zoomer faggot In fact japan should just add more pedophile and loli in their show
>>288498795>It's kinda funny that diddy tensei tards chose that the hill they'll die on is them defending Rudeus being a nonce.Hint hint, it's because they themselves are nonces and can't help but self insert into the MC, which is already the author self insert lmao, so any criticism toward Rudeus, no matter how valid, is taken as a personal insult towards them, making them have a meltdown.
>>288498869Nice projection lmao. You Subarufags are always good at projecting, atleast try to look at things objectively
>>288498903>someone mentions Rezero once in the thread>immediately everyone else must be a rezerofagKek, didn't take your meds today, Schizo?
>>288498842Look at the mole under his eye. What a player! Smarter, stronger, hotter, drowning in pussy and starting a dynasty!
>>288498903You don't even know what projecting is but you immediately did it yourself in your own post... It's fucking hilarious.
>>288498920Nice try, retard, but you can't hide your posting style. You already outed yourself as a Re:Zerofag earlier when you shilled Subaru here as a better flawed protag. Don't try to hide it at this point.
WTF even is this threadWhen is Season 3 coming out?
>>288498950Except I didn't, my first post ITT is >>288498795
>Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastard.Does it really matter?, we barely see earthdeus beyond a couple of scenes inside the new rudeus mind or when the man god shows up.
>MTfags can't even compromise on pedophilia being badJesus Christ...
>>288496361>Series would be better if the MC was never a fat ugly bastard.That's retarded. If you want to make MuTen a better story you need to make the fat ugly bastard realize the wrongness of his prior life and correct his ways, which he didn't to be fair, but if you didn't have the initial fat guy at the start it woud've been just a shitty fantasy
>>288498971I'd like to imagine a ragebaiter debating himself so furiously over subaru vs rudeus that he ragebaits himself
>>288498920Don't be shy, it's extremely obvious that all the pedo posts and rezero posts are the work of a single highly-invested schizo.
>>288481914Is the anon from the last thread that was asking about LNs here?The sekrit drive another anon mentioned is AFAIK, TheLuciusSeneca's drive. You can find it in his twitter, it has all of the side material and WNs and such.If you want, I can also upload my stash.
>>288498803>defeatYou have to learn what words mean, tranny.
>>288499242Remind me again why Rudeus didn't bang Aisha. None of his arguments are really relevant if you think about it too hard.>Paul would kill meDubious, also Paul is dead like a month after he makes that statement.>I'm traumatized by incest from the niece stuffIt's not the same thing, Aisha wants it. Plus wasn't the whole point of the story to get over past life trauma?I could see him saying he's just not into her, but we know that's not true, he comments on her body multiple times and she's one of the alternate scenerios he experiences later.
>>288497352Kakegurui author and Rifujin have been each other throats for years now
>>288499327He just wasn't that attracted to her.
>>288499242>pedo projecting his other tranny fetish onto othersKek. How low can you fall?
>>288499327Rifujin designed the entire story around Rudeus's RGB harem, every other girl was doomed by cosmic fate to never get him.
>>288499374>man claiming projection is himself projectingIron Knee. Twitter is that way >>>
>>288498855Hipster
>>288499403>can't even say that pedophilia is bad>tranny out of nowhereIt's not my fault your brain is just full of those 2 things.
>>288497848It's just a fetish, plot points need to be relevant in the plot.
>>288499327I think Aisha handicapped herself in being seen as her own woman in Rudeus's eyes by not pursuing her potential. Sylphie, Roxy and Eris all try hard. Aisha coasts on her genius even though we know she has the potential to be much more than a maid. Even when she does take on responsibility, it's for Rudeus and not herself, like the mercenary company.
>>288499410No difference in being a hippie or a yuppie in this economy, jimmy. Just embrace the beauty in both of them. Trying to pick a side makes you the real hipster.
>>288499446>can't even say that pedophilia is badWhat are you even talking about? Why would I need to say that? HRT getting to your brain, eh?
>>288499403That Aisha gif always makes me so hard
>>288499501>doubles downLol
>>288499618:)
>>288499469That's pretty sad if you think about it.
>Wanna escape hikkidom? Just make sure you're reborn as handsome, talented and upper class, bro.Umm, thanks?
>>288496361nothing could have saved the series from flopping
>>288499853How much privilege someone needs to be reborn with scales with how much of a fuckup they were in their previous life and how difficult the world is.Rudeus is a grade A fuckup and the world is relatively dangerous, so he was given a head start.
>>288499853>Just make sure you're reborn as handsome, talented and upper class, broRudy was already born like that in Earth though, he just wasted it. That's why he took the chance now when he got isekai'd
I am happy that this series makes the retards seethe with anger.
>>288496361the MC being a piece of shit trying to do right is central to the series
>>288499903>from flopping???It didn't though.
>>288499919You're the only one here seething tho.
>>288499979They are seething that its a success.Also look at the current month which explains why threads like these are made.
>>288500105You felt out called out when he addressed "retards"? LOL
>>288498074the story isn't even 2/5 done in the anime yet
>>288499853To be fair he originally died in a horrible painful way by saving someone, i say he deserves it just for that alone.
>>288498676theres an entire novel about how this almost destroyed his relationship with his sister and son because he had to confront the fact that she was a pedophile like he was
>>288498971a month away, starts first week of july
>>288500152>You felt out called out
>>288500317She's a Rudyphile settling for the closest thing she can get her hands on. It'd be more logical to say her affliction is incest since she's at 2/2 on that one.
>>288481914>>288499231theres a drive that has basically every officially translated english light novel in existence, i'm not going to link it here for obvious reasons but shouldnt be too hard to find
>Would be much more recommendable and immensely popular as well, probablyWhat an odd endorsement of making every anime character a former fat ugly bastard.
>>288500367true she's a rudyphile but what triggers rudy about it was the family/child aspect
>>288500371The anon already mentioned he found the "initial set" which I'm assuming means Volume 1-26, but couldn't find the rest, i.e. Redundancy, Subjugation, Jobless Oblige, Old Dragon's Tale, bunch of extra chapters that were region and vendor specific that got TL'd by Lucius, Redundancy chapters that haven't come out in light novel form yet, Paul Gaiden, etc.
I think we've had enough threads, didn't we? There was already one up that got archived before even the bump limit, just fuck off until later in the month when we get some leaks from the theater screening.
>>288500459Ahh, I see what you mean
>>288499231>Roxy on CRTIs S1 on CRT and S2+ on OLED the way to go?
>>288500846Possibly.
>>288500882Here's the Sylphie to round it out
>>288500846No. Everything OLED. CRT isn't worth it for any show post 2010
>>288499231>>288500882>>288500898There's a Roxy, a Sylphie and an Eris in every pixel...
>>288500589Yeah, it's pretty much the same faggot fishing for replies because he wants to talk about MT and anons wont respond to normal threads, so he says something retarded for engagement.Anyways, here's trubasa:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9u7oQ7aaV0
>>288503089>anons won't reply to normal threadswhat about every thread that's been around for the last couple of weeks?
>>288496361Personally, I'd prefer him to be an ugly bastard, but a little less fat and, above all, not a degenerate.
>>288503234What's wrong with being a degenerate?
>>288504098Its degenerated
>>288504276In these trying times filled with generative ai we should all be more degenerative
>>288500589>until later in the month when we get some leaks from the theater screeningHow likely is it that we're even going to get leaks when it would require a jap to break a rule in public? God bless their civic responsibility but damn.
>>288503192Imagine>hey I just watched a youtube video about S1E3 and want to restart the same retarded argumentstomping on a human face, forever.
>>288504657>a japThey haven't kicked all the foreigners out of the country yet, so the odds are a bit better than you're thinking. Not sure though.
>>288504764may the lord bless our brave weebs overseas
Why aren't (You) learning magic from a young age to become a famous and powerful mage?
>>288505638I lost the training manual.
>>288503089Nanahoshi represents a character you rarely see in isekai: Someone who wants to go home.We need more characters like her.
>>288505638Still waiting for the right truck-kun to arrive...
>>288498549>Well, he's not really a murderer so he's not irredeemable in that sensehe was about to chimp out in his mid 30s when a minor inconvenience was presentedhe also chimped out in his alt history where he became mega powerful revenger who killed and raped everybody he wanted
>>288500362fried him with that one
>>288497352>>288499359>edgy satire manga portraying Rudeus exactly like he isWhat's it called?
>>288496361If anything there aren't enough shows with ugly bastard MC's. Why do you always want to watch generic twinks? In fact I'd argue the show would be better if he was still reborn, but he paid the price for his Laplace factor by magically growing to look identical to his old self. You can still have the romance make sense, as he's still an extremely powerful mage and he bonded with the women while he was still a child and not completely hideous.
>>288496361It would help if the main character wasn’t a massive piece of shit even after his “redemption”
>>288498762This isn't Reddit, so throwing that word around doesn't do what you think it does. About as effectual as a literal faggot tranny calling someone a fascist.
>>288496361>>288497320People just need to approach it like GoT. MT is such a ridiculously low hanging fruit to draw your morality line on. Although there’s no denying that if there was no Isekai elephant in the room and Rudy was just a talented kid the series would be mainstream mega popular.
>>288508231Do you understand what it's like to go through months on end of erectile dysfunction, see your dad die, and suddenly be thrown into agonizing fear that your dick might stop working again?I don't particularly care about the harem, but it's frustrating to me that Roxy has an absolutely massive inferiority complex that Rudy is completely aware of and yet he basically makes no attempt to communicate why he thinks highly of her. She's the last wife to find out his secret that they're the same age. And don't get me started on wife rotation schedule when they could be having foursomes, and the constant celibacy arcs. Rifujin is a loveless hack.
>>288508995Maybe his entire identity shouldn’t be built around his dick and having sex to begin with
literally all just reposts from the failed bait thread.
>>288509042That kind of talk is how we got the celibacy arcs. I think he can have significantly more sex and simultaneously be a better husband with ease.
What’s that? You’re having CONSENSUAL SEX?! Noooooooooo! You fucking filthy bastard!
I just finished chapter 9 of volume 13 and does Roxy ever establish dominance in the marriage dynamic? She might as well be a third sister to Rudeus. Sylphie is very much the alpha wife. I assume dynamics will change when Eris comes around.On a side note I’m disappointed we got zero details on the first threesome.
>>288498256>his character flaw is.... ...that he's a chad
>>288510845I said cucking, not fucking. He hasn't had sex once. Is that your rolemodel?
>>288510659>does Roxy ever establish dominance in the marriage dynamic?No, she's pitiable as fuck up until the very end.
My main problem is the protagonist centered morality. Things become good because it’s Rudy doing them. If a random side character did half the “moral gray” shit he did he’d be called a villain for it. To say nothing of the fact that he is an actual ugly fat bastard incestuous pedophile in his first life. Scum
>>288511044Holy larp, as expected of a bait thread
>>288511169Are you debating that he masturbated to his bathing niece? While living in his brothers house?
>>288511044What a retarded thing to say about the series that forcibly tries to redeem Pax "I'm going to rape your girlfriend in front of you, behead you, and then immediately rape her again next to your dead body" Shirone
>>288511209Nope, I'm calling you a LARPing retard. That's all.
>>288499853He could have easily repeated the same mistakes he did in his previous life (not leaving his house and becoming a social reject) if it wasn't for Roxy, and technically it was by his own effort in the first place by learning the world's language and magic which led to his encounter with Roxy in the first place.
>>288505638Magic isn't real.
>>288511640Oh, forgot about that. Well... Technology we have nowadays is not too far from it.
He needs to chill
>>288496775this
>>288498402>he's masturbating to child porn of his own relative in the day of the funeral.that's not canon btw, that was a pre-script/ original idea the author had, but retards ignored that and treat it as canon for some reason
>>288513933It confirms it in Redundancy ackchually
Since you fatties idolize this isekai trash so much, why don't you off yourself already ?Don't you want your harem like your rudy ?
>>288513933>pre-scriptit's still on narou to this day. in the fourth paragraph of the entire story. seems like he's fine with that being someone's first impression of the story.
>>288514107No I just want Sylphie
>>288499460He probably wouldn't have fucked and married Roxy and had kids with her if he wasn't a lolicon. Which is a pretty big plot point. His attachment to Eris early on started because he was desperately trying to fuck a loli in her prime. He probably would have noped out of the whole situation with her attitude if he was just a normal kid. The romance plays a big part in MT, so his lolicon fetish is relevant.
Is oldeus next season?
>>288514071It's just a photo set his brother made.>>288514192Everyone reads LN nowadays.
>>288515956>no argument but pretending to have one anyway
>>288515937yes
post Eris so I can have sweet dreams when I sleep
>>288516067sweet dreams
>>288510659>I assume dynamics will change when Eris comes around.Nope. All bow to the Goddess of Love.
>>288508915The only reason this is even close to mainstream is because a bunch of pedos were commited to animate first season for 5 years with movie-tier production, because they wanted to pay tribute to series about them.
>>288497352That's not even Rudeus you retarded faggot, it's Shin Wolford. How many times do we have to teach you this lesson you stupid bitch?