Android 18 does not use any energy attacks against Vegeta

>>288818932
What about Android 16 firing Hell Flash against Cell, targeted directly at the ground?

>>288818905
>they showed Vegeta blowing up an entire planet
Anime filler not in the source material.

>>288819171
His galick gun could still blow up the Earth

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>>288818905
>How did they not blow Earth up while fighting?
It's kind of an unspoken rule throughout the story that the cast can control their ki to a degree which allows them to NOT blow everything around them to hell should they so choose.

For example, Piccolo blasted Raditz with all he had when they first met, and it barely destroyed part of the ground around them. But then flash forward to the day following Raditz's defeat, and Piccolo manages to blow up the entire fucking moon with a seemingly less powerful attack than what he fired at Raditz. Similarly, when he used the makankosappo the first time, it only took out a chunk out of a mountain DESPITE the attack itself being powerful enough to kill Raditz, who as we know, had just previously tanked an attack comparable to the one that blew up the moon.

There do appear to be some limits to this flexibility though. For example, if someone is firing their shit off at full strength directly towards the ground, it's implied that they can't control the blast enough to avoid destroying the earth (see: Goku's instant transmission kamehameha against Cell).

What should be bothering you more is the fact that the androids, as villains, were coincidentally juuuuust strong enough to be more powerful than FRIEZA and the fucking Super Saiyans of legend, really only because the plot demanded it. This was, in my eyes, the first (or at least the most egregious) instance of DBS-tier inconsistency/plot convenience in the story. But conversely, the androids were pretty imposing when they were introduced, so they get a pass.

>>288819743
>uuuuust strong enough
The Androids were far stronger than Frieza and the Supe Saiyans.

>>288819743
The androids were made with data on Frieza and SSJ available.

>>288818905
>How did they not blow Earth up while fighting?
The physics answer is the Earth is a lot harder to blow up due to gravity. It's way bigger than the moon and has 6x the gravity, you would need to be 1800x as powerful.
If Saiyan Saga Piccolo power level was 322, he would need a power level of 580,000, so right around late stage Namek Saga where planet busting was a legit reality.
in reality I think Galick Gun probably does not toast the planet and it was Vegeta bluffing to get Goku to stand still

>>288819997
Also, to put this in perspective, Earth TODAY has meteor busting capability with ballistic nukes. We could use a bomb to destroy an asteroid the mass and velocity of Chicxulub, the meteor that ended the Cretaceous and wiped out the dinosaurs. That asteroid was 6 miles in diameter.

>>288818905
Ki control, it's not that deep bro. You just will the ki blast to not blow up the planet you are chilling on because that would be annoying and inefficient

>>288819946
I thought they were explicitly made without that data, which is why Gero is surprised when they go Super Saiyan.

>>288819805
Sorry, i meant they were just strong enough to be within the next tier of power, but were soon surpassed by Cell and the new grades of super saiyan.not long after.

It just seemed overly convenient how they were stronger than the previous arc's villain with relatively little justification, whereas the previous villain (Frieza) had more plausibility to be as strong as he was since he was a alien tyrant with dubious and unexplained origins and strength. The androids on the other hand were made by Gero, a human scientist, and are stronger than this planet destroying alien warlord because... they just are?

>>288819946
I could be wayyyy misremembering, but I thought Gero stopped collecting data on the z fighters after the saiyan saga, but his COMPUTER never stopped which is why Cell managed to get Frieza's DNA?

>>288820182
>I thought they were explicitly made without that data,
He has to have at least somewhat of it, Cell is made of Frieza and Cold DNA.

>>288820182
>>288820187
Gero not only had data on Freeza and Cold, which is how he got their DNA, he also scanned Freeza's tech that repaired his body and according to Vegeta made him feel even stronger than on Namek.

Mecha-Freeza fills in a lot of questions as to how he pulled that off but doesn't know what a Super Sayain is.

>>288820496
Not those anons but what is dumb is that some earth scientist is the first one to make a bioclone much stronger than frieza yet none of the galaxy's top minds couldnt do this to take out Freiza? Surely getting his DNA at some point would have been possible

>>288820453
I always assumed that DNA was either recovered at a later point, or the androids were already built/far enough along in development that it couldn't/wasn't used.

Cell was technically made by the supercomputer not Gero himself, so he may have had never seen that data by the time he died.

>>288820496
This would make sense, but the problem is that Gero was supremely confident that he could take Vegeta based on the data he had on him, he'd have to be a mega retard to get Frieza tech and not wonder how/who beat the guys that made this stuff. Idk, it was obviously written as a retcon, but the circumstances to me always seemed to indicate Gero just had no info on the Namek and beyond stuff.

>>288819278
180 power level BTW. Imagine if Farmer with Shotgun had 40 shotguns.

>>288820570
>Not those anons but what is dumb is that some earth scientist is the first one to make a bioclone much stronger than frieza yet none of the galaxy's top minds couldnt do this to take out Freiza?
Yes? Earth Scientists are next fucking level in DBZ. Spacefairing folk couldn't figure out Capsules and Bulma/Gero could reverse engineer AND IMPROVE on pretty much anything they got their hands on. Even regular ass people were flying around in super mechs in Dragonball. What sayains are to powerups, DBZ humans are to tech. Gero in canon pretty much just scanned Freeza, went "Oh that's how you merch tech and biology", and improved on it with his already made unlimited energy core he created but never figured out how to make something strong enough to withstand it.

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>>288818905
I always imagined their power becoming more focused, since they could accidentally blow up the whole planet. So their ki-blasts don't increase in radius, but become much more intensified in the process. Like a big widespread torch vs a focused torch for example, the later one burns much hotter even tho both use the same kind of fuel.

>>288820576
>I always assumed that DNA was either recovered at a later point,
...from the charred dust?

Trunks didn't leave shit behind of Freeza.

>>288820576
>This would make sense, but the problem is that Gero was supremely confident that he could take Vegeta based on the data he had on him,
Because of the energy absorbing. When he found out he couldn't drain Vegeta of all his power, he realized he didn't stand a chance against him. In fact he was pretty sure he could energy absorb even stronger than the ~Renegade~ cyborgs he didn't want to wake up, he knew he was weaker than them outright.

It's not that he thought he was stronger right then on his own, he was positive he'd managed a perfect tech that would allow him to counter all of the ki shit they fling around and just plain jane got that shit wrong. He HAS to know about Trunks, otherwise there's no King Cold DNA, so that doesn't make sense otherwise. Maybe he didn't know Trunks was a super sayain because he didn't know Trunks was a sayain, but he knew about someone on that level.

>>288819743
>What should be bothering you more is the fact that the androids, as villains, were coincidentally juuuuust strong enough to be more powerful than FRIEZA and the fucking Super Saiyans of legend, really only because the plot demanded it. This was, in my eyes, the first (or at least the most egregious) instance of DBS-tier inconsistency/plot convenience in the story. But conversely, the androids were pretty imposing when they were introduced, so they get a pass.

>>288820182
Gero's micro robots collected data and DNA from Freeza and Cold. Gero himself wasn't overseeing them at the time, so he didn't design the androids with Super Saiyans in mind.

It's actually baffling plot point I don't get why Toriyama implemented. The entire story could have worked the same even if Gero knew about Super Saiyans aside from Gero briefly thinking that Yamcha was Goku. The line adds absolutely nothing aside from making the power of the androids completely arbitrary.

>>288818905
Ki control theory.

>>288820789
The line makes perfect sense in story specifically as a way for them all to have trained to get stronger in the 3 years without him knowing about it.

Taken as is, Gero's scanning machines got destroyed by Trunks in the battle and he lost track of the Z fighters, which makes sense since Goku and Gohan almost never trained near home. So in a way he would know what a super saiyan WAS, he just didn't know he knew because none of his data would indicate Trunks is a Saiyan. For all he knew he was an alien. Er... different alien.

Point was to show he had no idea what Goku was capable of as a plotpoint, and likewise he had no idea what Vegeta was capable of since he was in space when he went SS and just came back to earth powered up. As far as he knew the only person who could do that tranformation was the purple haired guy, not a saiyan.

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>>288818905
In case anyone ITT is still confused
>Gero himself stopped collecting data after the Saiyans attacked earth
>Gero's COMPUTER kept collecting data up until Frieza came to earth which was used for the creation of Cell, but he was apparently not aware of it since he thought he had seen all there was to see

>>288820887
>Taken as is, Gero's scanning machines got destroyed by Trunks in the battle and he lost track of the Z fighters
No? The implication is that Gero simply wasn't ever actually watching them after Saiyan Saga. He thought he had a pretty good handle on Goku's power progression given red ribbon to saiyan saga, as well as assuming he would slow down due to age. Now why would Gero assume someone who's clearly not human would follow human age rules? Fuck if I know.

>>288820576
>but the problem is that Gero was supremely confident that he could take Vegeta based on the data he had on him
Yeah? Vegeta was in space when he got his Super form and the last time he would've seen Veggie fight was in Saiyan Saga.
>he'd have to be a mega retard to get Frieza tech and not wonder how/who beat the guys that made this stuff.
Where would Vegeta factor into that? He literally never even showed his face around Freeza on earth, as far as he knew the only person who could beat Freeza was a human working for Capsule Corporation who wields a sword.

While we're talking about Androids saga. They never actually explain that android 16 is based on Gero's son, right? Like that was explained in an interview. I wonder what people thought was up with 16 without that context. it's weird how no one really brings up how weird 16 is without the added context.

>>288820925
>No? The implication is that Gero simply wasn't ever actually watching them after Saiyan Saga.
He had to have been, the computer didn't just... randomly decide to clump a bunch of shit together. That makes way less sense.
>He thought he had a pretty good handle on Goku's power progression given red ribbon to saiyan saga, as well as assuming he would slow down due to age.
If the machines got broke during Trunks fight with Freeza he has literally zero reason to think otherwise. Goku didn't even land on earth until hours later and if there weren't any scanning machines still around then he wouldn't be able to get them to there before they were gone.
> Now why would Gero assume someone who's clearly not human would follow human age rules?
...Because Goku said he was human and a well known human was his "Grandpa"?

Why would he assume he's not just a human who's really good at fighting? Plenty of other people did stuff like him against the Saiyans. Would he think Krillin's an alien?

>>288820987
>Why would he assume he's not just a human who's really good at fighting?
Anon he turns into a giant gorilla, that happened in front of everyone during the 21st budokai, Humans don't just do that. Also i'm not sure where you're pulling the idea that the spy drones got broken during Trunk's fight, the only one we see that's broken is the one piccolo destroys when he's confronted by imperfect cell at ginger town

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>>288820961
What do you mean by "what was up with 16'? Even without the context they explain in the show he's a pure Android as a prototype to eventually combine the tech with humans. It's not like he's new, we've had Eighter since Dragonball. He's the first machine that could hold the infinite energy core.

>>288821028
I suppose I wasn't clear with what I meant, I wasn't asking why 16 exists i'm saying the show never explains why Gero was so scared of letting 16 out, as his behavior never suggests he'd be some kind of threat like Gero implies he would be, as well as why Gero would make an android so pacifistic in the first place

>>288821023
>Anon he turns into a giant gorilla,
Lots of characters transform in the show.
>Humans don't just do that.
They... do? Tien grew extra arms in a tournament too. Why wouldn't he just think he's magic? Magic is real in the show. Gero knows it's real, people do it all the fucking time working for the rr army.
>Also i'm not sure where you're pulling the idea that the spy drones got broken during Trunk's fight,
Probably because he didn't know Goku could go Super Saiyan but also hey here's all the Freeza and Cold stuff he needs to know for the plot. Like that's the exact cutoff to make everything fit perfect.

>>288821092
>but also hey here's all the Freeza and Cold stuff he needs to know for the plot
Cell's pretty explict that Gero was not personally involved in his development and left that all to his supercomputer because Gero was aware that Cell's development would take Decades, iirc Cell would only ever be finished around the time GT happens, so he just left the project entirely on autopilot.

>>288821055
>I wasn't asking why 16 exists i'm saying the show never explains why Gero was so scared of letting 16 out,
They actually did explain his programming is "Faulty" though he didn't elaborate what that meant. It's an audience misdirection where you think it means he's a super dangerous machine, but then it's revealed he's nice so Gero was probably more afraid he'd recognize him as evil and blast him.

Course with the new info it's possible and a little sad that he might just be afraid these freaks were stronger than he knew again and he'd have to watch his son die all over again.

>>288821139
>Cell's pretty explict that Gero was not personally involved in his development
You're skipping the part where Cell says GERO explicitly is the one who gathered the cells of the greatest fighters and Piccolo namedrops Freeza. He has to know how strong Freeza is because he explicitly picked him as one of five people to make a mutant baby with. If he doesn't know about Freeza and how strong him/cold are, Cell doesn't really exist?

>>288821028
>He's the first machine that could hold the infinite energy core.
Where does this idea come from, btw. The only mechanical bits we explicitly know of in 17 and 18 are their bombs, everything else is just them being cellularly enhanced like supersoldiers or something. I've never seen any direct bringing up of an infinite energy core and I wonder if it's from Daizenshuu or fanon to square the circle of why the human 17 and 17 and the robotic 16 has it

>>288820931
>Yeah? Vegeta was in space when he got his Super form and the last time he would've seen Veggie fight was in Saiyan Saga.
Yeah, we agree on that. I'm saying that fact combined with the notion that he had data on the Frieza and King Cold fight is silly. Hell, he had Trunks' (the mysterious capsulecorp sword fighter) DNA and Vegeta's DNA he'd know the two were related and prolly want to try some new calculations. Also, if it's the Frieza technology and the mechanization of freiza that inspires him, as far as he was aware Vegeta was last seen wearing the same uniform and thus part of that same coalition, so Vegeta's natural abilities would've been a red herring to make projections of.

>Where would Vegeta factor into that? He literally never even showed his face around Frieza on earth, as far as he knew the only person who could beat Frieza was a human working for Capsule Corporation who wields a sword.
You're speaking as if Gero even knows this, but he doesn't. As far as I'm aware, Gero has no clue who Trunks is or that the fight against Frieza and King Cold even happened. He stopped collecting data after the Saiyan arc. It's Gero's computer who collects this data and makes Cell at a much later point.

>>288820912
Yeah, this is what I was talking about.

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>>288821225
Cell says that Gero STARTED the project but left it to his computer, there's nothing explicitly saying when exactly Gero switched from personally doing that to the computer, and given the context that Gero is unaware of super saiyan, it should be implying that by this point the project was done by the computer

>>288821227
>Where does this idea come from, btw
I think extended media? I know there's at least one Super Heroes where 17 steals 16's "Infinite Energy Reactor" and now has two, and looks goddamn ridiculous.

>>288821313
are you sure that wasn't super 17 fusing with 18 or was there some other wacky fusion i'm unaware of

Also I would like to say that even IF Gero got confident and decided to stop scaling sometime after saiyan saga, androids 19 and 20 really should have been more than enough to roflstomp super saiyan, it's just that Gero got unlucky and forgot to account for literal time travel, what a chud, he should have his genius license revoked

>>288821247
>. I'm saying that fact combined with the notion that he had data on the Frieza and King Cold fight is silly.
Why else would he get their DNA?
> Hell, he had Trunks' (the mysterious capsulecorp sword fighter) DNA
Funny enough, nope. He is explicitly NOT a part of Cell, he never got Trunks DNA so for all he knows he's a Capsule Corps android too.
>as far as he was aware Vegeta was last seen wearing the same uniform and thus part of that same coalition
I have no idea how you jumped from this to the next part, Vegeta working for him wouldn't have changed his opinion on if Freea was strong.
>You're speaking as if Gero even knows this, but he doesn't.
I mean, possible that the computer did all the scanning of Freeza's DNA completely unrelated? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to include Cold then, right? Cold didn't even throw a punch before he got nuked.

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>>288821334
The latter.

His shoulders are big because reactors are in them, you see.

>>288821398
I think it might just be an amount thing for the computer, I think it just gets maximum two samples of any particular species and then goes for no more. What's really odd is why it didn't go for Gohan at all and instead went for Vegeta

>>288818905
I came into this thread expecting the usual schizo Dragon Ball posts that nobody but /a/'s DB community understands.
I'm surprised to have found none of this and instead see an entire thread of people seriously discussing Dragon Ball.
Am I on bizzaro /a/ or something?

>>288821438
I think most of the /dbs/ posters have left these days for the death battle general over on /co/ so may as well have some actual discussion. What's your favorite movie villian, anon?

>>288821434
>I think it might just be an amount thing for the computer, I think it just gets maximum two samples of any particular species and then goes for no more
Now that can't be right, there's dozens of whacky and weird things running around DB land.

> What's really odd is why it didn't go for Gohan at all and instead went for Vegeta
That one had to be Gero watching the fight since he knew who Vegeta was and picking the obviously stronger guy. Even if he abandoned the project there's no way it wasn't till after this.

>>288821459
Gohan was around and showing his power for quite some time before vegeta showed up, but the computer just decided to skip raditz AND gohan for whatever reason and jump straight to vegeta

>>288821459
>Now that can't be right, there's dozens of whacky and weird things running around DB land.
Its explained that Cell actually does have lots of miscelaneous earth species inside of him in one of the random blurbs, not just the Z fighters. It's just never showed off because it's not really relevant. I assume it's meant to explain why he looks buglike despite none of his main constituent parts having any buglike things about him

>>288821480
Raditz was pre-Saiyan Saga so the idea of aliens was still out there, and Raditz didn't go to any major city. Remember, Nappa nuked a city upon arrival and personally fought the army, Gero wouldn't even know Aliens were real up to that point. Why watch Goku's kid? He's retired.

>>288820887
>Taken as is, Gero's scanning machines got destroyed by Trunks in the battle and he lost track of the Z fighters

>>288820987
>He had to have been, the computer didn't just... randomly decide to clump a bunch of shit together. That makes way less sense.

No, that's what's stated in the show. It's not that he stopped following them after Trunks vs King Cold, he stopped following them after Goku vs Vegeta, saying he estimated that was the peak of Goku's growth, and then left his spy bots on auto. And those bots by themselves, with no input from Gero, were the only ones that saw Super Saiyan Trunks/Goku vs Freeza and Cold and collected those cells.

>>288821538
The Drones should have been watching them, regardless though. The drone is just watching piccolo in the ginger town fight, it just seems to be tracking them at basically all times

>>288818905
ki control

>>288821398
>Why else would he get their DNA?
There's nothing indicating he was the one who got their DNA, he initiated the project and his computer then spent the next few decades actually finishing it. For all we know he started the project with just the Saiyan arc data, and the super computer managed to get more and implement it at later stages.

>Funny enough, nope. He is explicitly NOT a part of Cell, he never got Trunks DNA so for all he knows he's a Capsule Corps android too.
The irony here is that this is more evidence he had no idea who Frieza and King Cold were. Why would he initiate his world domination plan if he was under the impression capsulecorp had access to something as powerful as Trunks? Trunks was way stronger than the Gero androids, so Gero couldn't have thought his world domination plot was ready assuming he saw the Frieza battle.

>Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to include Cold then, right? Cold didn't even throw a punch before he got nuked.
I guess the specifics are up to headcannon. I just imaged that after the big battle the flydroids went around picking up whatever trace amounts of DNA remained and they found some of King Colds. Cell knew who King Cold was by name so Video/Audio footage of the Trunks battle was captured, which means the Supercomputer/Gero knew he was Friezas Father and thus probably useful.

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>>288821498
>I assume it's meant to explain why he looks buglike despite none of his main constituent parts having any buglike things about him
That's just him looking like the tech he was developed from.

>>288821139
>iirc Cell would only ever be finished around the time GT happens
Damn, now I want to see how things would have played out with a version of Cell that got DNA from the Buu Saga and GT characters. Hell, if Cell never told Piccolo about Gero's basement or just lied about his origins, then that very well COULD have happened.

>>288821092
>They... do? Tien grew extra arms in a tournament too. Why wouldn't he just think he's magic?
Because he obviously didn't try to do it, Tien grow arms and used other stuff by himself it's different from nature just kicking in and transforming him

>>288821562
I mean Red Ribbon recorded it regardless. Toriyama even made that a plot point of the SuperHero movie.

>>288821612
Well, you're basically just describing android 21, lol.

>>288818905

Most of the time the cast is fighting a single opponent. Back then Vegeta intentionally blows up a planet by firing directly at it with the intention of wiping it out.

The whole Android story arc is the worst it ever gets in terms of potential collateral, because later Buu just forgoes it all completely and blows Earth up without a shred of hesitation just to kill his enemies.

>>288821615
>Because he obviously didn't try to do it,
That would make it more likely to be magic, like a curse or something. There are a ton of cursed characters in the original Dragonball. They explicitly know about Baba and later they find out about King Piccolo, evil magic is still very much a thing.

>>288821667
>Buu just forgoes it all completely and blows Earth up without a shred of hesitation just to kill his enemies.
I don't think he even did it to try and kill goku and vegeta, I think he did that just to do it

>>288821677
I think the disconnect here is that Earth during OGB and earth during Cell saga are very different settings. in OGDB earth is a very wacky mystical place whereas by cell saga it's mostly just kind of like, vaugely scifi advanced earth and that's kinda it

>>288821677
That's true but there is also a shitton of races in the setting so i'd guess it would be hard to simply assume to be one or another, if he had done a DNA or something search would make more sense i guess

>>288821586
>There's nothing indicating he was the one who got their DNA, he initiated the project and his computer then spent the next few decades actually finishing i
Problem is we don't know when he "Initiated it" because Cell was a fetus in Android Saga time, so it could've been as recent as a year or later.
>For all we know he started the project with just the Saiyan arc data, and the super computer managed to get more and implement it at later stages.
Does that fit timeline wise? It had to actually start cooking the Cell Fetus after Freeza comes down to earth, it obviously starts making it post those DNA.
>The irony here is that this is more evidence he had no idea who Frieza and King Cold were.
But he did know them and he knew about Trunks. It's a major plotpoint of the Android saga that the DBZ-Timeline pair are massively stronger than the Trunks Timeline because he upped his game.
>Why would he initiate his world domination plan if he was under the impression capsulecorp had access to something as powerful as Trunks?
Trunks uses the type of energy he can absorb obviously?
>Trunks was way stronger than the Gero androids,
Right and he wanted to take that energy. For himself. He did not want to even wake up the other two.
>so Gero couldn't have thought his world domination plot was ready assuming he saw the Frieza battle.
Again, he wasn't planning to use 17 and 18. He was going to do it with the clown.
>Cell knew who King Cold was by name so Video/Audio footage of the Trunks battle was captured,
We knew that and saw it in the movie where everything was really fast. Toriyama actually wrote that one too.

>>288821438
Nope, you're seeing Dragon Ball fans here sensibly discussing the series in real time. Tis astounding.

>>288821718
>I think the disconnect here is that Earth during OGB and earth during Cell saga are very different settings
It's kind of fun in that way that Gero's coming in with seemingly DB level knowledge and plans of "Just absorb energy and make one really really strong fighter" and doesn't seem to much care about the wider implications on that note, he even wants to just take over the world like the fucking dumbass he is while a whole universe is out there.

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>>288821779
>It's a major plotpoint of the Android saga that the DBZ-Timeline pair are massively stronger than the Trunks Timeline because he upped his game.
We're actually never told why Androids saga androids are stronger than Trunks' androids. In fact i've seen theories that Trunks is simply incorrect, the androids were holding back and only ever went their full power when they killed gohan, Trunks just never knew their real power because he can't sense their Ki

>>288821793
Speaking of it why the fuck did he never consider things related to the dragon ball, sure energy and shit sounds cool but shouldn't he have considered the literal wish granting thing and tried to absorb it too

We're also not really told why they're fighting 17 and 18 at all when a z team with zero super saiyans and no prep from the three year gap really should have gotten hard fodderized by 19 and 20. But thinking too hard about the future timeline is liable to give you a headache, the timeline in general makes zero sense given the namekian dragonballs exist and king kai can just ring them up whenever if someone goes to ask

Android saga would've been better ii it was just a proper adventure arc instead of what it was, Dragon Ball Z didn't really have much feeling of adventure past namekian saga

>>288821823
>We're actually never told why Androids saga androids are stronger than Trunks' androids.
True I guess, it's just something I inferred because it fits the timeline. It would be a little funny since Trunks comes back so far beyond that level, but regardless Gohan did fight them for years so if anyone knew if they were holding back it would be him.

>>288821857
>t shouldn't he have considered the literal wish granting thing and tried to absorb it too
He thinks the magic dragon is dead because King Piccolo very publicly blew Shenron the fuck up. They didn't exactly advertise he was unexploded.

>>288821911
I mean you can kinda see in that page there that he's quite clearly suprised by this information. There'd be no way for him to know the upper bounds of the androids either due to their unsensable ki

>>288821866
>We're also not really told why they're fighting 17 and 18 at all when a z team with zero super saiyans and no prep from the three year gap really should have gotten hard fodderized by 19 and 20.
I dunno if it's an animation error or not but in the anime when Trunks talks about the Z Fighters getting wiped out, Vegeta is a super saiyan in his flashback implying that he went SS and bodied the supposedly weaker pair, forcing Gero to unleash the two just like he did in their timeline. Trunks, of course, wouldn't know this because everyone involved in that shit is dead.

And/or Gero just... woke them up first in that timeline and they are the ones who did the attack, it would explain why they were late in the regular timeline.

>>288821896
Androids saga is a deeply fucked up arc due to Toriyama having to constantly shuffle around the bad guys due to Torishima shitting on the designs. Gohan gets his pep talk from android 16, a character he has never so much had a conversation with
>>288821968
Are you sure that was the case? Trunks' explanation happens before Vegeta is even revealed to have super saiyan in the manga and the anime producers weren't exactly privy to coming plot details because toriyama made that shit up on the fly

>>288821866
>and king kai can just ring them up whenever if someone goes to ask
Total bullshit on my end but I always imagined that as Supreme Kai stepped in and told him not to specifically because he was sure Bibidi was headed that way and he didn't want fighters that could resurrect Buu to come back, since Androids don't use that type of energy he was more content with them running around.

>>288822044
I mean that kind of begs the question as to why supreme kai said nothing in the original timeline, if said fighters are alive you'd imagine this is now a BIGGER problem than if they weren't around

>>288821779
>Does that fit timeline wise? It had to actually start cooking the Cell Fetus after Freeza comes down to earth, it obviously starts making it post those DNA.
I don't see why Cell couldn't have a pretty fast gestation period. They also could have tried to make Cell a bunch of times but kept failing until they finally got the process right and updated the DNA with new data as time went on.

>Trunks uses the type of energy he can absorb obviously?
Yeah, but as Vegeta showed (who is comparable to Trunks) Gero and the clown could never have absorbed enough energy to win. I guess what I'm saying is if Gero knew about Trunks he aught to have been prepared for a Trunks level threat, but when facing off against Vegeta (comparable to Trunks) he got stomped.

>But he did know them and he knew about Trunks. It's a major plotpoint of the Android saga that the DBZ-Timeline pair are massively stronger than the Trunks Timeline because he upped his game.
We know they're stronger in the DBZ-timeline yeah, but I don't remember it ever being said it's because Gero improved them based on knowledge of Trunks.

>>so Gero couldn't have thought his world domination plot was ready assuming he saw the Frieza battle.
>Again, he wasn't planning to use 17 and 18. He was going to do it with the clown.
I'm confused by this exchange, I wasn't implying he was going to use 17 and 18. I was saying that his attempt to take on the Z-Fighters knowing about Trunks is odd because we essentially got to see that exchange when he actually fought Goku and Vegeta and got wreaked. He had no way to out maneuver the Z-fighters with even a single Super saiyan level threat against him IMO.

>>288822064
>I mean that kind of begs the question as to why supreme kai said nothing in the original timeline,
He explained at the tournament he wanted to use them as bait. Like yeah lot of strong guys are a problem, but he believed if he knew where they were he could go deal with them personally. He just needed someone to jump one of the fighters.

>>288818905
How come Goku doesn't break causality every time he teleports or turn the whole planet into plasma every time he flies faster than light

Why didn't future gohan just get really really mad and oneshot the androids? Is he stupid?

>>288822085
>I don't see why Cell couldn't have a pretty fast gestation period
It did take him a while to be ready enough to come out and kill Trunks, but he still had to go back even further to stop being a giant cricket. His gestation is slooowwww.
>They also could have tried to make Cell a bunch of times but kept failing until they finally got the process right and updated the DNA with new data as time went on.
That's possible, and we just didn't see the failed clones that got flushed.
>Yeah, but as Vegeta showed (who is comparable to Trunks) Gero and the clown could never have absorbed enough energy to win.
Correct but he didn't know that, and was very confident that wasn't the case. As far as he knew there was no limit to the amount of energy he could absorb, it was instant, and there was no way to stop it. He was wrong, sure, but he was prepared for a Trunks level threat in his mind and on top of that was sure a Trunks level threat would make him way more powerful in the process. Not only was he sure he could win, but that winning would make him strong enough to rule the world.
>but when facing off against Vegeta (comparable to Trunks) he got stomped.
To be fair even the clown got real smug when he grabbed Vegeta and was sure that was game over.
> but I don't remember it ever being said it's because Gero improved them based on knowledge of Trunks
It's the only difference timeline wise, especially if he's not actively watching them.
> I was saying that his attempt to take on the Z-Fighters knowing about Trunks is odd because we essentially got to see that exchange when he actually fought Goku and Vegeta
I must've misread "Gero androids" as "Geros androids" and thought you were implying he thought 17 and 18 wouldn't be enough. To clarify he thought it was going to go down like it did with Yamcha of him just absorbing them instantly and winning, he had no reason to believe there was a limit he couldn't take. Was he wrong? Yes, but it's still his logic.

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Krillin pisses me off

>Yeah, but as Vegeta showed (who is comparable to Trunks) Gero and the clown could never have absorbed enough energy to win.
Actually wouldn't they have won that fight? Vegeta got all of his energy absorbed by 19 like a complete dumbass, if Gero decided to call his bluff instead of running he would've died. That entire thing was completely retarded and there's no reason Vegeta should've done that. He SAW 19 absorbing goku's ki by his neck why did he need to double check that?

>>288822232
>That entire thing was completely retarded and there's no reason Vegeta should've done that.
There are so many parts of the Android/Cell saga this applies to...

>>288822258
Well yes but unlike most of the narrative that calls out vegeta being stupid, this was supposed to be seen as SMART, piccolo explicitly calls Vegeta a genius for baiting 19 into using his absorbing attack, despite the fact that he was directly told already that they absorb through their palms

>>288822085
>Yeah, but as Vegeta showed (who is comparable to Trunks) Gero and the clown could never have absorbed enough energy to win.
You say this but do remember the only reason he's not like 17 and 18 and thus way stronger is because he was convinced his energy absorbing powers were far superior to theirs having an upper if stupidly high limit of output. He was sure than energy absorbing was way BETTER than being a fucking walking techno god.

Gero is stupid but he is consistently stupid.

>>288821823
>the androids were holding back and only ever went their full power when they killed gohan, Trunks just never knew their real power because he can't sense their Ki
Yeah, I'm sure that's the reason, the only time the androids went full power Trunks got knocked out by Gohan so he never saw them at their peak.

>>288822163
Future Gohan never had the 3 years of training unlike regular Gohan, on top of that he never trained with Goku who taught him how to reach the next step of super saiyan.
Future Gohan only had Piccolo's year of training and the events of the Namek saga, so yeah, dude didn't really have a good Master to teach him because everyone more experienced than him was dead.

>>288822232
>Vegeta got all of his energy absorbed by 19 like a complete dumbass
Yeah that's true, if Gero hadn't bitched out he would've won (against Vegeta at least). Though after 19 died, Vegeta would've had no-more energy to absorb so he'd have been back to square 1 against Trunks (who is way less retarded lol).

>>288822295
Wait is that true? I was under the impression he just couldn't for some reason, but now that you mention it he had no reason to not make himself as strong as 16 and 17 so maybe I missed that moment..

>>288822337
Even if headcanon I'd buy this just because it seems like the same kind of tragic oversight that plagues Trunks' journey. Seems very fitting narratively in that light.

>>288822390
He also certainly went back to studying and chilling coming back from Namek and for sure never started training after his dad died.

Then everyone was dead in a literal day. Like an actual day and anyone on his level who could train him is fucking dead. He had no one who was anywhere close to as strong as himself to bounce off of. The fact he made it to SS on his own without getting killed by the androids is a goddamn miracle.

>>288822390
>Future Gohan never had the 3 years of training unlike regular Gohan, on top of that he never trained with Goku who taught him how to reach the next step of super saiyan.
You know it's pretty weird that Goku just never tought Gohan super saiyan during the three year gap. It's not even a particularly hard thing to do, the anime makes it this whole ordeal but in the Manga it's protrayed as not exactly a difficult thing to achieve. It's bizzare especially since that Goku knows that without super saiyan Gohan is essentially dead weight against the androids who defeated a super saiyan trunks

>>288822418
>I was under the impression he just couldn't for some reason, but now that you mention it he had no reason to not make himself as strong as 16 and 17 so maybe I missed that moment..
Yeah we're not really given a reason. My personal headcanon is just that Gero's body was too old to handle the procedure that did 17 and 18 so he had to do energy absorption

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>>288822418
>Wait is that true? I was under the impression he just couldn't for some reason, but now that you mention it he had no reason to not make himself as strong as 16 and 17 so maybe I missed that moment..
He went into more detail in his little side things like normal but 18 in panel says also the energy absorbing models are easier to use.

>>288822443
>You know it's pretty weird that Goku just never tought Gohan super saiyan during the three year gap.
He tried? He needed to go even further to make it work in the time chamber.
>It's not even a particularly hard thing to do, the anime makes it this whole ordeal but in the Manga it's protrayed as not exactly a difficult thing to achieve
Weirdly it did put a lot of emphasis on controlling it like it's some monstrous beast rather than the actual transformation. Goku in manga took an entire year sabbatical post freeza just to learn to control it.

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>>288822564
I dont think Goku attempted to teach gohan how to become a super saiyan at all before the time chamber, as Gohan is skeptical at the very idea that he could even become one. It's presented as "yeah im gonna teach you how to become a super saiyan now" not "I've finally figured out how to make you one"

In fact, the three year gap is honestly super bizzare, the narrative treats it like Piccolo and vegeta are the only two people who got anything done. Tien and Gohan get their cool stuff out of time chamber training, the three year gap did fuck all for them.

>>288822622
Well shoot I guess I read a mistranslation, the one I remember had him say "I'm sure you can reach it now" in the top left panel. If that's the official translation I've got nothing for it besides he never planned on Gohan fighting at all and just wanted him strong enough to run interference at best.

>>288822682
Even then, I feel it's bizzare that Goku came up with his "I need to surpass super saiyan" thing so late. He's shown direct evidence that a super saiyan comparable to him isn't enough to deal with the androids and not once during the three year gap does he come to the conclusion that he needs to surpass super saiyan.

>>288822664
>the narrative treats it like Piccolo and vegeta are the only two people who got anything done.
So, normal for Toriyama?

Boy howdy I sure am glad we watched everyone not named Gohan or Goku train for a year preparing for the saiyans, they ALMOST beat the miniboss... well, most of them. One of them didn't even make it past the starting line.

>>288822738
at least back in saiyan saga we're credibly seeing everyone be genuinely stronger. Even Yamcha if he didn't let his guard down would have been able to beat a raditz tier opponent.

>>288822720
>Even then, I feel it's bizzare that Goku came up with his "I need to surpass super saiyan" thing so late.
He's not trying to surpass it, he's trying to surpass that weird limitation they have where they get huge and slow. It's not explained in THAT panel but in a later panel where Trunks reveals his huge form that, yeah, he gets absurdly powerful but he sacrifices too much speed and movement to be worth it. Gohan eventually is the one to figure it out with SS2.

It's also not shown there but he's talking about Gohan when he talks about himself, he doesn't believe he can do it, but Gohan can.

>>288822782
But Goku doens't know about the Grades yet, the page I posted was just after Goku and Gohan got right into the time chamber, they didn't see Trunks or Vegeta use the Grades yet. We see later that Goku independently figures out the Grades and decides against pursuing that path

>>288822762
I mean the 20 chase did show off that everyone's gotten a lot better as well, including even Tien, it's just they all got fodderized when 17 and 18 went at them same as when Nappa went on offensive. They were all visibly stronger and it was looking like they were going to easily beat 20.

Cept Yamcha... again... Didn't even make it to the miniboss

>>288822802
You kind of contradicted yourself there, Goku had figured out that technique before even going into the chamber. Vegeta knows about it too, but realized its limitations instantly, Trunks only busted it out because he hid it from Vegeta thinking his ego couldn't take him being weaker than his son, not knowing Vegeta would've told him it was stupid right away. CELL even knows about it and shows it off.

That scene was explaining literally everyone except Trunks knows about it and figured out the drawbacks because they weren't like him and afraid to use it.

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>>288822859
This entire exchange with Goku and Gohan doesn't really make any sense if Goku knew ahead of time that this was a bad way to go, it's much more likely to me that this is him admitting that this is a dead end in power, and unlike vegeta who settled with grade 2, is dumping this path entirely and starting over from scratch. If Goku knew this path to power was faulty from the start he would have simply gone for mastered super saiyan and would have had no reason to waste his time on grade 3 like he's doing here

>>288822295
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure he says something about creating an android with that level of power makes them unstable. Whether that's true or not doesn't matter because Gero and his clown use fundamentally different technology than 17 and 18 who seem to still be mostly organic. Gero and the clown on the other hand are either 100% inorganic or in the case of Gero, just have a brain in a jar. Its likely a limitation of Gero's design for himself and the clown that they aren't as strong as 17 and 18, or even 16 for that matter. Gero probably just wanted to be a control freak at the last second and not risking screwing things up and assumed he would have way more than enough power and capability to handle whatever came after him

>>288822900
>This entire exchange with Goku and Gohan doesn't really make any sense if Goku knew ahead of time that this was a bad way to g
It only makes sense if he does, because he's explaining it to Gohan right there why he shouldn't do it. Why else would he say "Now I know!"? He's showcasing what it is and Gohan is understanding his logic.
>t's much more likely to me that this is him admitting that this is a dead end in power
Usage, dead end in usage. It's got the power, but as he says he still needs to be able to hit the guy.
>If Goku knew this path to power was faulty from the start he would have simply gone for mastered super saiyan
He... did? He also tried for that and couldn't reach it, believing only Gohan could? I'm not sure what you're saying here. He's showing Gohan "This form doesn't work" and explaining why they need to figure out a new way that gets a big power boost, but doesn't slow you down. That's Ascended Saiyan.
>and would have had no reason to waste his time on grade 3 like he's doing here
He's not training with it, he's showing it because "Knowin's half the battle"

>>288822961
>Its likely a limitation of Gero's design for himself and the clown that they aren't as strong as 17 and 18, or even 16 for that matter.
The way they made it seem, he couldn't have BOTH the Infinite Energy Generator and also the Energy Absorbing Module installed, and according to >>288822483 Toriyama had him declaring 16, 17 and 18 unstable and uncontrollable, so he seems to think there's something about the generator that makes you nuts.

>>288821866
Its pretty reasonable to think that Vegeta probably went SS in the meantime. He was already autistically trying to achieve that goal anyways. I think it's an anime only thing(a fine enough canon imo) that shows his psychosis over Goku AND Trunks having super Saiyan and him not, but there isn't any reason to believe that Frieza showing up and kicking ass until Goku showed back up and killed him and King Cold didn't give Vegeta the psychosis he needed to go and achieve SS anyways. On top of that Piccolo never stops training anyways and had a chance to be strong enough to kill Gero and the clown. Non-zero chance he even fuses with Kami anyways at a weaker state which would probably of given him the boost required to body Gero. I think that's overthinking it though, I think Vegeta probably just handled it

>>288822985
>He also tried for that and couldn't reach it, believing only Gohan could?
Anon are we talking about two entirely different things? Mastered super saiyan is the form Goku and Gohan are in right after they leave the time chamber, i'm not talking about Super Saiyan 2. Also the "I don't think I can beat him like this" feels like it's implying to me more that this is a new form he just got, and is analyzing it himself. This just doesn't read like he's solely doing it to lecture gohan on why it's bad, it looks like he found the form on his own, independently found out why it's bad, and simply decided to "start over from scratch" and go for a different path. saying that he's "starting over from scratch" doesn't make any sense if he wasn't genuinely intending to go for the grades and found out they're shit, so instead he's starting over.

>>288823036
I just don't really buy it that much for motivational reasons, Vegeta has always been super reactionary to Goku's progress. I cant see him locking in turbo hard to get super saiyan within the three year gap in a timeline where Goku is dead. would he EVENTUALLY get super saiyan? Sure. I'm just not sure I buy he'd meet the deadline fast enough for Gero. In fact if he was off training in space why would he come back to fight the androids in time, he wouldn't even know about them coming in exactly three years.

Also something about the androids that's never answered is the power discrepancy between the future androids and the current androids exists in the context of the current androids being inexplicably way nicer than the future androids. we're never really told WHY this is the case and it's kind of implied there's some fundamental difference to why these androids spared the z fighters as opposed to killing them, but I assume it's a dropped plot point because it's never answered

>Thread about Dragon Ball lore
>118 posts
>ZERO schizoposting /dbs/ bullshit
I-Is this a dream?

>>288822443
SS is absolutely not an easy thing to get to. Every single character in the android saga goes through great trouble to achieve it, you need to be incredibly strong to begin with to even qualify for the form, and it's explicitly stated to not be as simple as just getting mad to achieve. The Buu saga with Goten and Trunks is absolutely a gag and also Super's attempts at trivializing it are extra retarded because
>super isn't canon lmao
>the other universe Saiyans arent the same as our universe saiyans
On top of that Goku didn't even have a complete understanding of SS yet and wouldn't gain one until after the hyperbolic time chamber. He took a year off on yardrat just to figure out how to turn it off and on at will. Goku probably hadn't figured out how to coach Gohan there yet during the training, and Gohan himself probably wasn't even ready for it by the end of the android training. Vegeta ironically probably had the "easiest" of transformations and even then he was going through a multi year long psychosis, and he was already just about strong enough, AND he was constantly putting himself through constant physical trauma to try and achieve the strength of SS. It took him literally breaking down physically and mentally to finally achieve SS in a life or death situation where he almost died in the void of space

>>288822985
NTA, but from what I got out of that page, the first panel seems like Goku himself JUST reached Grade 3 and is in that same moment going "oh fuck, this ain't it.". It also seems like Gohan was until shit then under the impression they were trying to reach grade 3 and now that Goku just did he's confused as to why he's dismayed at reaching their goal.

It seems like Goku immediately recognized the limitations the second he reached grade 3 and then explains to the less experienced Gohan what his conclusion was, rather than it being an exercise that Goku was showcasing for Gohan specifically TO explain.

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>>288823131
I really think 17's line about holding back against Gohan was meant to explain this. That chapter was released shortly before the Cell Games. So, way after Toriyama established the Future Androids were supposed to be weaker.

Bulma says Trunks isn't stronger than Gohan when he died, and Trunks doesn't even deny it, just says he will win this time. In the main story, Trunks says that he could keep up with the future androids even if not beat them, unlike the present ones. So, 17 and 18 holding back against him too makes everything line up.

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>>288823193
>Vegeta ironically probably had the "easiest" of transformations and even then he was going through a multi year long psychosis
To be fair the anime does A LOT to massage the idea of Vegeta getting super saiyan. In the manga he just gets it entirely offscreen with a short explanation that lampshades the previous explanation that you needed a pure heart to get it. It's honestly pretty bullshit and i'm surprised toriyama got away with it. Also it kind of is just being angry+ a vauge power requirement. Which given the narration of Goku after he finished his gravity training at namek, seems to be about that. Gohan should be more than strong enough by namek much less by the three year gap

We can all agree that Future Gohan would've been able to defeat the androids if he fought them individually right

>>288823264
Not in the manga. The anime heavily changes their confrontation.

>>288823220
This doesn't explain why 17 and 18 play the kiddy gloves with the Z fighters so hard. Like 18 is WELL within her rights to kill vegeta during their fight, he walked up to her and is very clearly attempting to kill her with zero provocation and is constantly attempting to kill her and is assaulting her. 18 leaving him only with a broken arm was an insane amount of restraint and is odd given what we know of the future androids which seemingly immediately killed the z fighters

>>288819743
That's why originally the androids sapped ki which was designed to nerf the cast down to their level

>>288823274
Complete headcanon, but in Trunks timeline the Gero confrontation at the lab never happened and that put them in the Mood for going on a whimsical roadtrip to find Goku rather than just immediately killing everyone.

>>288818905
Toriyama has done everything gradually, by the times of Saiyan saga it already featured over the top power levels able to destroy a whole planet in few attacks. By the time Toriyama not expected to introduce stronger characters and bigger power levels.

In Saiyan saga, Vegeta is still not the prince, there is no Frieza, and he came to earth only for the balls because he is an asshole. Everything else introduced later change the original perspective, and it make the death of both Raditz and Nappa without any redemption attempts kinda awkward. Toriyama simply not cared, his work advanced gradually.

>>288823042
>Anon are we talking about two entirely different things?
I think we are because I'm still using this in the framing of Goku's eventual plan he reveals during Cell that he claims he started as soon as he saw Gohan go SS.
>Also the "I don't think I can beat him like this" feels like it's implying to me more that this is a new form he just got,
Then why's Gohan saying "Now I know" as if he had just had his question answered? That line of dialogue doesn't make sense if Goku started waxing poetic unprompted, Gohan had to have asked.
>This just doesn't read like he's solely doing it to lecture gohan on why it's bad,
Agree to disagree on that, Gohan's responses really only make sense if they're in response to something.
>aying that he's "starting over from scratch" doesn't make any sense if he wasn't genuinely intending to go for the grades and found out they're shit, so instead he's starting over.
Him saying he's starting over from scratch also makes sense if he's saying he's going for a different route from what Gohan was doing before, since he's clearly educating him.

This entire scene is supposed to be the contrast between Goku and Gohan being open and discussing stuff versus Trunks hiding his stuff from his father and ending up paying for it, it doesn't fit as well if it's just Goku suddenly realizing something and Gohan saying "Now I know" for no reason.

>>288823367
I'm honestly perfectly fine with the idea of Raditz being dropped. people bring up constantly the idea of him being Goku's brother but it's pretty clear that Goku cares about blood way less than his found family. I'm not really sure what he'd do other than bloat the cast more than it already is. I feel like you cant have raditz AND vegeta around or Raditz would just become another tien, a mid tier power guy who's plot relevance is made largely redundant by piccolo

>>288823389
Are you even sure it's Gohan saying "now I know" the speech bubble triangle thing seems to be coming from Goku's direction, not Gohan's

>>288823407
>Are you even sure it's Gohan saying "now I know" the speech bubble triangle thing seems to be coming from Goku's direction, not Gohan's
I mean the "And knowin's half the battle!" directly seems like it's in response to it, it just doesn't read as cleanly if Goku said it and then continued with the rest of that.

Also it fits better because Gohan is clearly the one going "Huh?" right before it.

>>288823274
Maybe in the Future Timeline they exploded 16 before he could wake up, and that triggered something in Gero's programming in them. I mean, something happened to that guy.

>>288823438
I'd say the dialouge reads fine if it's coming from goku "and now I know, and knowing's half the battle!" is a pretty normal phrase. I'd also question why you would imply Gohan and Goku are going on different paths that Goku needs to outright tell Gohan that the grades are bad, just tell him about mastered super saiyan? Why would he even think about going for the grades when he's never had super saiyan himself before this.
>>288823484
Given the lowered power levels of that timeline I don't think they'd even be able to so much as scratch the paint on 16, much less kill him.

Since no one's really brought up buu saga yet there's a funny plot hole I want to bring up. During the aftermath of the Majin Vegeta fight and Buu being unleashed, the main team decides to make a wish to revive all the people that died, specifying the good ones so babidi's minions aren't accidentally revived. Goku desummons shenron after they make this wish and then teleports everyone to the lookout, and then immediately announces that Gohan has died due to being unable to sense his Ki anywhere. No one questions the fact that said wish should have revived Gohan or why didn't Goku use a wish to revive Gohan because he doesn't have anyone to fuse with (as this was his original plan before popo suggests goten and trunks do fusion instead) So the options are either this is a plot hole, or Gohan was secretly evil.

>>288823500
?I'd say the dialouge reads fine if it's coming from goku "and now I know, and knowing's half the battle!" is a pretty normal phrase.
But usually someone says now I know and is replied to with the knowing is half the battle, that's the whole gi joe thing it got stolen from. Regardless I was saying that the rest of the bubble implies its a response since it's all together.

>I'd also question why you would imply Gohan and Goku are going on different paths that Goku needs to outright tell Gohan that the grades are bad, just tell him about mastered super saiyan?
Because they're not presented as grades or different paths later on, when Goku explains his reasoning in the Cell games he's talking about how that massive power boost was needed but without the energy burn needed to get there. The entire "Keeping SS on" thing was implied to be him teaching Gohan to get the boost without the burn, but it's never described as grades or a specific path, just general utilization of the power.
>Why would he even think about going for the grades when he's never had super saiyan himself before this.
1, Goku always planned on making him go Super Saiyan, he said that to everyone in the Cell Games. But more importantly why this scene happened is it's showing Goku teaching Gohan IN CONTRAST to the previous scene with Trunks, it really does not work as well with now and later if it's not a teaching moment because it's supposed to be about Goku being open with Gohan in a way Vegeta wasn't with Trunks and the different results it produced. He knew Gohan was going to try the same thing because Gohan was sure it would make Goku strong enough to beat Cell, he had to educate him on why it's a bad idea.

Remember, Goku didn't know how to become an Ascended Saiyan, otherwise he would've just done it himself. He really did try to beat Cell and win, he gave it his all, but he said outright he recognized right away Gohan had the potential for it and that's what it was working towards.

>>288823500
>Given the lowered power levels of that timeline I don't think they'd even be able to so much as scratch the paint on 16, much less kill him.
If he's powered down he explodes like everyone else, all the power in the world doesn't matter if you can't block.

Also, did you know that it's actually very unlikely that Buu gets the powersets from the people he absorbs? Buu is established early on to be able to instantly copy attacks he sees, and all the attacks buutenks and buuhan use like space donuts and super ghost kamikaze are stuff he's seen being used against him. The (Anime gets a bit weird about this, though, as Buuhan uses the Masenko against Vegito with the super ghost kamikaze which he hadn't seen before.) It's also unlikely that Buu gets any memories from the people he absorbs, as he had no idea who dende was despite having piccolo absorbed (the anime is ALSO weird about this, because Buutenks taunts gohan with piccolo's memories. This is most likely a continuity mistake on Toei's part because the manga scene of him not knowing who dende was still happens)

>>288823613
That's not a plothole, he thinks Buu is preventing his resurrection since he's up to date on what happened to the other Supreme Kais. It's only later that he learns he was in the afterlife and that's why he couldn't be brought back.

Remember, he was unconcious when Gohan and Vegeta were "Killed". He woke up to Gohan being gone completely and Buu still out there, he also prevented the second wish just in case.

>>288823438
>>288823389
Autism incoming.

I feel like there's a reading of this that has:
-Goku Just enters Grade 3 for the first time
-Goku has a sudden realization and think he "might" not be able to beat cell
-A few moments of deliberation later he concludes that he in fact "cant" beat Cell in grade 3
-Gohan, confused by his father saying that this newfound form isn't going to work, exclaims "huh". This can also be understood as him saying 'Huh?[Why's that?]".
-Goku goes onto explain to Gohan the situation: (1)The new Mass makes him a lot Stronger (2) The new mass makes him a lot slower
-Goku continues by implying that even though this new form makes him stronger than cell, it makes him unable to actually hit him.
-Goku lastly points out (3) In that form he burns a crap ton of energy
-After voicing these thoughts, Goku concludes that the regular Super Saiyan form is more balanced.
-Gohan after hearing Goku's thought process exclaims "now I know..." the "..." in specific here (IMO) indicates a sort of listless tone. Like Gohan is still kind of taking in all the information rather than an earnest "oh, now I finally understand" tone.
-Goku then jokingly plays off Gohan's remark by finishing the GI Joe Idiom "And knowing is Half the Battle".
-Goku continuing with the joking playful tone relays to Gohan the new Plan to start from the basic.
-Gohan spurned on by Goku's upbeat attitude comes out of his slightly enervated state and replies with an excited "okay!"

That is my autistic reading of that page, and so (to me) it indicates that Goku did not know beforehand that Grade 3 was a bust.

>>288823698
Not all of the supreme Kais were actually absorbed by buu, only Fat and Strong Kai were, the other two were killed. Also, that's information that only Goku knew by that point, the rest of the people there would question why Goku would assume Gohan is dead despite that wish ostensibly reviving him but instead they just instantly believe him and are sad

>>288823688
They said he absorbs SOME of the personality and memories of whoever he absorbs, some stronger than others. The only reason he's a fat jolly fuck in the first place is he ate a fat kind Kai and it overwhelmed his evil side enough to suppress it, but the kai in question was smart and articulate while fat buu was childlike even though he seemingly had his abilities.

He also can bring it to the surface and talk if he wants.

>>288823757
Yeah that latter bit is later moro arc stuff. But i'm more talking about stuff that was just established within buu saga itself, wherein it seems unlikely that Buu gets any memories

>>288823748
> Also, that's information that only Goku knew by that point,
Piccolo and Videl were there mid flight too.

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Actually looking back on this chapter, Shin never says that Buu absorbed anyone, just that Buu killed the kaioshins. I'm not sure Toriyama had even come up with the concept that buu absorbs people. I think the explanation with fat kai only came up once kid buu was revealed, now that I think about it.

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>>288823781
>Yeah that latter bit is later moro arc stuff.
The Kai being a nice guy or the bring it to the surface and talk thing? Both of those were from the Buu arc.

>>288818905
Bro, Roshi blew up the fucking moon in the second DB arc, obviously if they do blow up the planted they'd all fucking die, including whoever throws the attack, that's why Frieza made such a big deal about it during the Namek saga, also, I think Namek is bigger than Earth and planet Vegeta, that's why it took """"""""""5"""""""""""" minutes to blow up instead of right away.

>>288823896
Oh yeah, also odd but it seems SOME can survive the vacuum of space like Frieza, Cell and Buu but I think we also see saiyans doing so? Probably humans can't, though, but I don't remember it quite well.

>>288823734
That does actually seem more in line with the anime adaptation of it, as a matter of fact. We get to see right before it and Goku looks a lot more contemplative, and they remove the "Now I know" exchange entirely, but also has Goku know he can push it further.

It fits well enough with what comes later I'm not gonna argue it though, autism be damned.

>>288823917
Saiyans cant survive in space, it's why Frieza attempts to blow up Namek in the first place. It's honestly a weirdly consistent detail about saiyans that survives to this day. they STILL cannot survive in space

Honestly the weirdest thing to me about mastered super saiyan is why Vegeta and Trunks never got it when they went into the time chamber again after Goku and Gohan came out. Vegeta seemed to instantly recognize what it is and as Goku puts it knowing how to do it is half the work, Vegeta and Trunks being stuck using their shitass grade forms is bizzare.

>>288823917
That was just dramatic placement, they were still in an atmosphere because Bardok and Freeza had a conversation. Freeza's plan in both Namek and the movie was "I can survive space and you can't"

>>288823993
It's because both of them remained unstable afterwards, which is why Goku didn't go back in with Gohan again and made it clear it wouldn't help. He needed to maintain it and keep it steady while having complete control of the power so when he finally tapped into it, he got the massive PHYSICAL power boost in addition to keeping his form and body stable to you know actually move like a person.

Once they hit the ceiling they were just spinning their heels and Goku knew that.

>>288824025
>which is why Goku didn't go back in with Gohan again and made it clear it wouldn't help
I thought the main reason that he decided to stop training is that he saw Gohan's potential to hit super saiyan 2 and thought there was no point in continued time chamber training. It's not presented as this super hard thing in order to master super saiyan, it's literally portrayed by goku to just be fairly basic training, but in super saiyan. Goku and Gohan got it so quickly that they got out of the time chamber early, even.

There is surprisingly little A18 porn in this thread.

>>288824052
>I thought the main reason that he decided to stop training is that he saw Gohan's potential to hit super saiyan 2 and thought there was no point in continued time chamber training.
I mean A leads to B, he knew that going back in and doing more physical stuff wouldn't help in reaching the next level of Super Saiyan, it was all about controlling what he has inside of him.
>t's not presented as this super hard thing in order to master super saiyan, it's literally portrayed by goku to just be fairly basic training,
Not true, the Manga leans way more heavily on Super Saiyan having emotional connections and being tied to anger and rage, so much so that Goku was terrified he was going to go on a rampage and hurt his friends after achieving it post Namek just because. The "Normal training but in super saiyan" is a big deal because when you go super saiyan you're supposed to have a wilder personality. I think a panel up there mentioned it when he talks about making it their normal state and getting rid of the feelings it brings.

Vegeta and Trunks are fucking pissed off and ashamed post Cell fight, they're nowhere near stable enough to maintain the consistent level Goku and Gohan does further on, they even tried the exact same thing of just training harder and it failed.

>>288824121
It doesn't really feel all that in character for trunks to seethe about it so hard for a full year that he wouldn't be able to get mastered super saiyan. Vegeta sure he'd seethe but Trunks? Again it's a full year in there. I feel like he'd cool down after the first month.

>>288823997
I swear I saw Vegeta surviving it but honestly it was probably filler. (Bug planet and one time he was by himself training or some shit).

>>288824148
>It doesn't really feel all that in character for trunks to seethe about it so hard for a full year that he wouldn't be able to get mastered super saiyan.
You say that but then I see how they acted around each other during the Cell games and I'm gonna have to dispute it. Seethe? Probably not. Curl up on himself in bitterness that his father wasn't what he hoped and shamed he couldn't save the future? Absolutely. He did not get a hold of that shit by Cell Games gotime

>>288824190
I mean, if we're going to bring up how people act during the cell games, you'd think that Gohan would have way more issues with both obtaining super saiyan and mastered super saiyan given all the issues he had during the cell fight with his anger and confidence and all that. But Cell games gohan is a deeply weird character and its own can of worms

>>288824184
Both of those are indeed filler, we never saw Vegeta's Space Trips towards earth or when he was becoming a super saiyan.

That said I think the show tried to handwave it as his pod had a shield on it for the bug planet that kept the air in it, and there was living things on the planet he got his SS form on so it had to have SOME atmosphere.

>>288824208
>you'd think that Gohan would have way more issues with both obtaining super saiyan and mastered super saiyan given all the issues he had during the cell fight
Pretty much it was the week of maintaining it that even let him hold the form, his power level was not even near Goku's pre head stomped.
>with his anger and confidence and all that.
The Anger and Sadness he exploded with but were able to control was the plotpoint that Goku said he's been working towards since the time chamber, and you even see glimpses of that with Goku telling Gohan to imagine Cell or Freeza killing him and Piccolo. He just didn't realize that shit didn't work till someone ACTUALLY died.

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>>288824244
>Pretty much it was the week of maintaining it that even let him hold the form, his power level was not even near Goku's pre head stomped.
Anon what? Gohan was stronger than Goku. Like, by default Gohan is just FAR stronger than Goku. Cell explicitly mentioned having to pull out his full speed in order to actually catch Gohan. as well as Gohan pulling out his power SHOCKING everyone

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>>288824287
Before the head smash Cell was absolutely toying with Gohan because he'd lost so much of his rage and confidence, whatever effort he put in at the start had completely vanished and it was a plotpoint that Cell was downright pissed he couldn't get Gohan to cut loose and give him a challenge like Goku did.

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>>288824457
Both things are true, anon. Gohan is stronger than Goku, but that's not enough to beat Cell, it was enough to make cell start taking the fight actually somewhat seriously, as Cell was in no actual danger during the Goku fight at all, given he wasn't using anywhere near his full power. We only see Cell's actual real power in two instances, when he's forced to use his Full Speed against ss1 gohan, and when Cell actually uses his full power against super saiyan 2 gohan. Goku never actually gave cell a real challenge he was just larping for the love of the game. It's why stuff like "he has most of his ki in this form" happened after the instant transmission kamehameha

>>288824504
But the point was specifically pre-headsmash Gohan's power had dropped down far below Goku's to the point Cell didn't even have fun with it. At least with Goku he relished in the challenge he got and actually took some real hits, but whatever early possible power difference Gohan had when he stepped up to the plate was just gone specifically because of how SS works with emotions in the manga. He had confidence to let him have control, he had the innate power, but he lacked the anger to ascend.

The original point made was by the time of the head stomped he was weaker than Goku because he'd lost all his confidence and rage. It's a major plotpoint.

>>288824580
Oh if you means specifically right before 16 got his head smashed sure, when you say "pre head smash" just in general I thought you're implying Gohan was always weaker than Goku until he got super saiyan 2, which is a common misconception I see most people say

>>288824607
Ah, my mistake for not being more clear then, I was trying to highlight the part you mentioned about Gohan having more issues with mastered super saiyan at that point, specifically his anger and confidence and all that. You're totally correct that at the start he had a leg up on Goku and even Gohan recognized outright that Cell was holding back, but I was saying since Manga Super Saiyan is much more emotionally based it had a much bigger hit on him like it did Vegeta and Trunks. That he maintained the form at all is down to the week long training being normal in my opinion, which Trunks and Vegeta fucked by chasing another rung on the ladder that was at the ceiling.

>>288824667
I think it would have been nice of toriyama to at least acknowledge that part on Vegeta and trunks. It's not like anything else was going on plotwise between then and the cell games after all. I know WHY toriyama made it so they don't get mastered, he wants the cell games to not get stretched out by Vegeta and Trunks when it's supposed to be Goku and Gohan's show, but it feels a bit sloppy to have them mostly just get dropped with no explanation given. Like we can sit here and extrapolate all we want but in reality I just dont think toriyama cared.

>>288824716
I'm like 90 percent sure he cared but he was trying to "retire" Vegeta by having him connect with Trunks and then go home to be a dad, and the only way that works is if he can't really steal the show so he can't get on Goku or Gohan's level. Of course he didn't stay that way, fan demand and all that for his editor insisted next arc, but It seems that was the intent.

Remember when he said "I'll never fight again" and flew off? Yeah that sure made a lasting impact.

>>288824771
It's actually a myth that Toriyama planned to end the series at cell saga, he was always planning on continuing it afterwords. It's just that he was very likely going to switch it to the more low powered low stakes Gohan does wacky hijinks stuff, so Vegeta being a fighter isn't really needed. That didn't last very long, though. I personally feel like Gohan never would have worked out as he doesn't really have the qualities of a shounen protagonist much and Goku is simply FAR easier to write as a protagonist

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>>288824796
>It's actually a myth that Toriyama planned to end the series at cell saga, he was always planning on continuing it afterwords.
That's not true, he never had a plan for anything as he went from one chapter to the next and was very flippant about it. The guy was proud of the fact he never knew where the story was going to go.

>>288824827
I know that, but there's no evidence of any kind of editor pressure that forced toriyama to make buu saga, he did that just because he wanted to write buu saga. Even if I do think a lot of buu saga is kinda donkey. (Majin vegeta isn't even a fight in the manga, the anime makes most of it up)

>>288820496
stupid fuck, he gathers their DNA only in the alt timeline from the bits and pieces left by his offscreen fight with Goku and applies it to Cell, he has no "data" from Namek. And you're forgetting 17 and 18 are earlier "models" than himself and 19. He can't "apply" that to them, retard. they were complete before being turned off

I also feel like super saiyan 3 is saved by the anime. In the manga it just kind of happens? Like he does the whole "this is a super saiyan" thing in a few panels and next page he's 3. There's not really much buildup to this whole thing either it's just kind of like "here's your next super saiyan form"

>>288824845
Fair enough that we don't have any evidence pointing out they like, really forced him to keep going.

Buu Saga is just kinda weird, it's clearly trying to be a more gag driven arc more in line with early DB but it still very much in the shadow of Z, something like Super Ghost Kamikaze attack is very DB like but it's against angry Boo who probably holds the highest on screen kill count in the series so it's kind of jarring

>>288824892
>stupid fuck, he gathers their DNA only in the alt timeline from the bits and pieces left by his offscreen fight with Goku and applies it to Cell

Did you miss Fetus Deletus in the main timeline? He had the Freeza Cells in their time too, Krillin blew him the fuck up.
>he has no "data" from Namek.
Good thing Freeza came to earth then?
>And you're forgetting 17 and 18 are earlier "models" than himself and 19.
What does that have to do with anything? We have no idea how long it took him to make either of them or how long they've been that way. It could be months to a year to literally same day as Freeza to further, there's no dialogue or scene that clarifies.
> He can't "apply" that to them, retard.
Unless, I dunno, he does it to them first and then himself later for some utterly known reason?
>they were complete before being turned off
For how long?

>>288824960
Said gag fight happens right after Buu kills gotenks' entire family, and after Goten sees his mom turned into an egg and smashed, Its tone is kind of all over the place

>>288818905
Ki concentrated to only cause localized destruction.

>>288820088
>ki control
Then why don't the ki blasts bounce harmlessly off of them? Broly's power level was so absurd he could tank a kamehameha directly to the face. Why couldn't the z fighters just harmlessly soak the ki blasts, if said ki blasts were controlled to be weak enough to not destroy the earth?

You're seeing how this doesn't make sense right?

On the topic of Broly
Not gonna lie, bros. I kind of think Z broly sucks. He has some cool oneliners and a lot of his attacks are cool don't get me wrong. But like, nothing happens in his fights? The Z fighters cannot meaningfully damage him in any way throughout the entirety of the fight. It makes you genuinely confused when they bring in Piccolo and Trunks and they just continue to contribute nothing to the fight. Nothing actually happens during this fight because they cant damage Broly They're not even forcing him to use any more power or anything it's just a static fight.

>>288825037
>Then why don't the ki blasts bounce harmlessly off of them?
Because it's still absurdly high levels of power, just more controlled to be more focused?
>Broly's power level was so absurd he could tank a kamehameha directly to the face
Right because he could counteract it with his own power in that aura you see around him, same reason all of the Z fighters can tank punches that can level mountains despite bring humans. You match it with your own energy.
>Why couldn't the z fighters just harmlessly soak the ki blasts, i
They're controlled, not weaker, if they let it hit them it could blow them the fuck up.
>be weak enough to not destroy the earth?
They are absolutely not weak enough they wouldn't destroy the earth, they're just using them properly. They can do versions that don't give off nuclear blasts, or they aim them at galaxies like Vegeta did with Cell for example. When Freeza snapped and fired off an uncontrolled shot Cold freaked the absolute fuck out because he could've easily killed HIM and Freeza with it.

Control, not power.

>>288821793
I think it’s funny that Vegeta and Freeza try so hard to become immortal and Gero just puts his brain in a robot and does it

>>288821866
>We're also not really told why they're fighting 17 and 18 at all when a z team with zero super saiyans and no prep from the three year gap really should have gotten hard fodderized by 19 and 20
cause they don't exist. unless you believe the future trunks who killed frieza wasn't the latter one, him naming 19 and 20 in the manga is just a writing error

>>288825086
Honestly I never understood why Broly is somehow considered this "legend" amongst the fan community, he's really not that different from any other tier of movie villains who gets hyped and then beaten, if something doesn't fit in or seems weird in relation to the rest of the show then yeah it's cause he's a movie villain and rule of cool trumps anything in those scenarios

>>288825121
It's because the heroes can legitimately do NOTHING to broly and that's kind of cool, it gives him "aura" as the kids these days say. I think it's terrible for fights, because a proper interesting fight needs a proper push and pull to be interesting. Even with Goku and Frieza, Goku was forcing Frieza to use more and more power as the fight went on, so there was push and Pull. Broly wasn't actually getting any stronger or anything once he went legendary, so there's no real stakes or fight dynamics, broly just wins. it's cool to think about but terrible for an actual fun fight.

>>288825121
>Honestly I never understood why Broly is somehow considered this "legend" amongst the fan community,
His movie had some of the best action most fans had seen from the series in a while and seeing so many absurd and seeing everyone jump him but still get bodied was just plain cool.

It really was just him being so damn entertaining by being so strong and loving every assrape minute of pretty well animated action.

>>288821823
Trunks not knowing the androids were holding back is probably what Toriyama intended but I like to think Gero made them weaker at the same time he made them more evil in an attempt to make them easier to control.

>>288825111
It really just highlights how much "immortality" was just the villain macguffin to get them to Earth/Namek, Vegeta amusingly seems pretty content to chill on earth afterwards never even once collecting the balls afterwards to just casually wish for eternal life.

>>288825169
To be fair, Immortality seems to be interpreted as complete vulnerability in this universe given Garlic Junior and Zamasu. Given that Vegeta's main goal is to beat goku fair and square, I think that getting immortality would harm vegeta's pride too much and would make any win against goku moot

>>288822044
>>288822064
Buu was an already established universal threat who killed literal gods, two cybernetic teens fucking up life on one planet is not comparable.

>>288825189
Vegeta has the excuse that he wanted the inmortality to kill Freeza, after Namek he doesnt want it anymore

>>288825189
I wouldn't really trust a movie Villain or Super lore on how it would actually function, I always just presumed it meant you wouldn't die unnaturally but could still be killed, but then again OG Piccolo did just wish for "eternal youth" so maybe it does just make you unkillable

>>288825097
>Because it's still absurdly high levels of power, just more controlled to be more focused?
If a blast is "controlled" to not destroy the planet, its total energy output must be below the planet-busting threshold, or dispersed in a way that doesn't propagate destructively. But characters far stronger than early Vegeta are still harmed or significantly pushed by these "controlled" blasts. Focusing energy (making it more concentrated) should increase localized damage/piercing potential, not reduce overall threat. A high-energy beam that's somehow "focused but safe for the planet" while still hurting someone with 10 to 100 times + the early planet-buster's power is contradictory, not explanatory.

>They are absolutely not weak enough they wouldn't destroy the earth, they're just using them properly. They can do versions that don't give off nuclear blasts, or they aim them at galaxies like Vegeta did with Cell for example.
That doesn't bridge the exponential power level growth with the relatively contained environmental destruction and durability feats. Early planet-busting at low PLs makes later "safe but still threatening" high-PL exchanges feel quaint, when realistically, they should be exploding galaxies.

Control lets them direct or limit output to some degree, but it doesn't resolve the exponential energy mismatch. A 250M PL ki ball pressuring a 150M fighter should dwarf the energy of an 18k Galick Gun.

>>288822295
The manga never explains why he switched to energy absorption but my headcanon is the infinite energy caused 17 and 18 to get amnesia and he didn’t want to do it to himself

Is dragonball unique in the sheer amount of guesswork and assumptions we have to do for semi-major plot points? I enjoy speculating with you guys but is it like this for all shounen all the time?

>>288822664
Tenshinhan invented a technique strong enough to hold back second form Cell, is that not good enough? It’s weird that Gohan didn’t get stronger, I guess Goku just took it easy on him since he was like 6 years old.

>>288825232
>If a blast is "controlled" to not destroy the planet, its total energy output must be below the planet-busting threshold,
That is not how Ki works in the show, it's not a natural kind of energy and it sure as shit doesn't follow the universal constant of energy cannot be created nor destroyed, they absolutely are creating vast amounts of energy from literally nothing and not producing the level of heat it would entail. Ki Energy does not have a real-life analog.
>or dispersed in a way that doesn't propagate destructively
There are multiple events where it literally just fades away because, again, does not follow those real life rules.
>But characters far stronger than early Vegeta are still harmed or significantly pushed by these "controlled" blasts
WHILE using their own energy to counteract and push against it, yes. If they were weaker, they'd end up like the Freeza soldiers we see in the show, blowd de fuk up.
>Focusing energy (making it more concentrated) should increase localized damage/piercing potential, not reduce overall threat.
Maybe for non-spiritually based inner power that contains more power than a nuclear reactor but fits on the end of a finger and can and does blow up a planet, yet produces no external heat, maybe. If Ki can exist on the tips of someones fingers before being fired off to blow the top off a mountain but NOT burn those fingers or leave any fire on said mountains, you have to assume it's not following that rule.
> A high-energy beam that's somehow "focused but safe for the planet" while still hurting someone with 10 to 100 times + the early planet-buster's power is contradictory, not explanatory.
Only if you apply different rules to the power than is shown onscreen. You ever notice there's blasts, but no flame?
> Early planet-busting at low PLs makes later "safe but still threatening" high-PL exchanges feel quaint, when realistically, they should be exploding galaxies.
They can do that. Buu does that.

>>288825311
That was from his time chamber time, wasn't it?

>>288820673
The mecha-succubi bots were efficient.
Like tiny nano slurping mosquitos.

>>288821023
>"Humans don't just do that bro!"
>Wow man, really? Racism today? You're going to make our dogman mayor sad.

>>288823153
I wonder if the spics are too busy talking about the World Cup

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>>288818905
>How did they not blow Earth up while fighting?
Blowing up planets is easy but is avoided because only a few characters can survive the void of space, so it's mostly only used as a "fuck you I win" move by freiza/kid buu. When characters use an attack capable of busting a planet they tend to aim at the sky(or any direction that isnt the ground) to avoid breaking the planet's core. Cant even a basic ki blast destroy planets when theyre so strong? They can but characters try to avoid it for the reason mentioned earlier.

>>288825269
Jujutsu Kaisen devoted the second to last issue of its manga to trying to explain the many many plotholes of the final battle, and still people have to speculate and guess what the actual fuck Kenjaku's whole plan would've actually done and why it involved the whole revealing JJK to the US thing. This is the main villain of the entire series who gets defeated by a well timed joke and his whole plan that drove the entire plot never actually results in anything besides an unrelated guy getting into a big fight for like 2 years.

Do NOT get started on fucking HunterXHunter. Walls of text do not help.

>>288823367
I don’t remember exactly when Vegeta became the prince, but he was obviously meant to be special from the start because he had the same name as the planet

>>288818905
Because Toriyama is a bad writer. Next question.

>>288823613
It’s weird no one notices it, but he would have been dead anyway if Kibito didn’t heal him. There’s no way Toriyama didn’t notice it, maybe he just doesn’t have Goku mention it because it’d be kind of morbid.

>>288825437
It's more the thought that even if Gohan was dead that wish should have revived him no matter what. An anon from earlier tried to suggest that Goku thought he couldn't be revived because Buu absorbed him, but looking into it it's unlikely that Toriyama even gave buu the powers of absorbtion yet, and likely wouldn't until Super Buu. Funnily enough this makes shin look like an asshole because he never warns anyone that buu can absorb people.

>>288823838
There’s no way Toriyama had absorption or Kid Buu planned out from the beginning, but it’s impressive how well it fits

>>288823613
If kid buu was weaker than super buu, but stronger than goku or vegeta, why didnt they simply wish gohan back to sweep kid up in seconds? Gohan is an arrogant fuck up but he's a safer bet than resorting to the spirit bomb

>>288825452
>but looking into it it's unlikely that Toriyama even gave buu the powers of absorbtion yet,
Or if he did, it was in the vein of what he did to Dabura, which was turn him into candy and eat him.

>>288825483
Wish? Anon they're in the afterlife, Goku could just teleport to him and go grab him right now if he wanted to. I think they lampshade it with vegeta saying something like "Gohan and gotenks had their chance it's time for the earth to save itself" Like it wasn't vegeta's fault the earth is in this predicament in the first place.

>>288818905
My headcanon is that intent matters. Bejita actually wanted to destroy that planet while 18 only cared about defeating bejita

>>288823993
I bet they tried but were physically incapable of relaxing while Super Saiyan.

>>288825503
Yeah I forgot that goku can just teleport in and out of the afterlife(holy shit instant transmission is ridiculously dumb). Toriyama just avoided that easy answer because he wanted Goku to finish the fight as usual...and having Gohan one-shot buu in a single page would be a lame(but funny) way to end the series.

>>288825561
To be fair, you can argue that they wanted to avoid a situation where buuhan can be created again, as they don't have the potara anymore they're ultrafucked. The spirit bomb was at least a better first option because if that fails they're at worst back to square one

>>288823993
I actually find it pretty clever way to highlight the different personalities, Vegeta reached Super Sayain and thought of ways to enhance his "peak" performance of it, i.e. he treated it as enhanced state he needed to strain to reach, he recognises the limits of bulking to hard unlike trunks but his underlying philosophy was flawed in comparison to Goku who trained for the base state of super sayain to be "natural" thus meaning his powers would enormously enhanced when he actually started fighting, it's a good way to showcase the differing characteristics between Goku and Vegeta.

>>288823993
I think they explained that Goku learned to train more efficiently and he also trained with gohan as a partner. Compared to Vegeta who burned himself out and refused to train with trunks.

>>288824908
Yeah for the most part Toriyama’s pacing is godly but sometimes in the Buu Saga it’s too fast. The human extinction attack is cooler in the anime too.

>>288825591
I think you may have misinterpreted what I said. I am not against Goku getting mastered super saiyan whereas Vegeta goes for the grades, as you brought up it's a great way to show their different philosophies when it comes to fighting. What i'm saying is AFTER vegeta fails and he looks at goku and accurately assesss what mastered super saiyan is and what Goku likely did to get it, still fails to get it after going back into the time chamber. To be honest though, mastered super saiyan is based on a retcon because it implies super saiyan is a straining form to be in, which was never at all implied to be true before that point. If anything it gave Goku a second wind after he as gassed out from doing the kaioken x20 and namek spirit bomb

>>288825636
>What i'm saying is AFTER vegeta fails and he looks at goku and accurately assesss what mastered super saiyan is and what Goku likely did to get it, still fails to get it after going back into the time chamber.
I think part of it the limited time, didn't he only have like 6 months in the chamber compared to the one year, I'd also assume it's very antithetical to Vegeta's whole personality and training belief so he has to reorient his whole manner and ways of training to shift towards it, plus there's still the underlying humiliation eating at him so It'd make sense that he be unable to do it in the time frame possible for the Cell games.

>>288825483
They bring it up as an option but Vegeta wants to do the earth spirit bomb instead

>>288825769
You know it sure is interesting that Vegeta suggests to use the attack that he's personally been hit by
and didn't work
How does he even know the mechanics of the spirit bomb anyways to know you can ask people for their energy? Who told him that?

>>288825783
Obviously the real answer is having Gohan curbstomp Kid Buu would have been a really anticlimactic end to the manga. But maybe at some point Vegeta was hanging out with Yamcha at Bulma’s house and he was like “Hey Yamcha one time Krillin bounced some sort of ki ball off of Gohan and hit me with it and it really fucking hurt, what was the deal with that” and Yamcha was like “Oh that was the genki dama, I learned about it from Kaio”.

>>288825783
>Who told him that?
DBZ is headcanon central. Everyone learns about each other's techniques offscreen...probably. funny thing is that every spirit bomb prior(except the movies that arent even canon) only used the energy from the planet.

>>288825783
I mean Vegeta is a fight maniac, it make sense he'd study and learn all the moves the Z fighters used

>>288818905
>they showed Vegeta blowing up an entire planet
not cannon

>>288819743
It made sense for the original androids to be powerful after absorbing energy from the unwitting z-fighters, editor-san ruined everything. Gero would've been cool as the only thinking villain in the entire series.

>>288825483
>Buu absorbs Gohan again
Its a good job Goku didnt listen to you or we'd all be dead.