File: 1776118350012595.png (302 KB, 395x960)

302 KB PNG

Seriously, think of something, anything, interesting about the original, and the movie is missing it.
Its just incredible.

>>290361818
Oshii improved on the source material and manga purist fags are forever malding over it

>>290361997
He made it worse in just about every way imaginable.
Literally all the film has going for it is an OST.

More or less, the only people that really love the 95 film over all other GITS are psychological mirrors that can only reflect the tone and style of the media they consume.

The 95 film is slow and puts on airs of being dark and moody and contemplative.
Therefore they think it is dark and moody and contemplative and asking deep questions. It is literally just responding to stimuli as a habitual adopting of whatever new identity is thrown their way.

The GITS manga doesn't put on overdramatic airs. It has a lot to say, but says it without drama or exaggeration.
But because it doesn't get up its own ass with the self-congratulations, dullards can't see what is there.
There isn't any drama for them to explicitly mirror, therefore it isn't there for them.

Those 'people' rely on psychological priming to think anything.

>>290362047
>More or less, the only people that really love the 95 film over all other GITS are psychological mirrors that can only reflect the tone and style of the media they consume.

This is true, but the 95 film is still good and worth digging into.

So it's one of those situations where something is not overrated, it's just rated highly for stupid reasons as opposed to its actual merits

>>290361870
>>290361997
>>290362046
samefag

>>290362115
I am the first and third.
But I don't need to samefag, there are enough people with shit taste.

>>290361997
This.

>>290361818
>If I am mostly machine, am I still human
That wasn't even the issue you fucking retard. Watch the movie at again at normal speed this time. They don't even know for sure if they're human to begin with because the technology to plant fake memories exists, and the company that built their bodies has been hacked. If all their bodies besides presumably their brain is machine, and memories can be faked, and artificial intelligence is so advanced that it can gain self-conciousness, how can they know they are indeed humans without opening up their heads to see their own human brains?

Also they're stuck in this shitty job forever because if they want to quit, they'll have to return their cybernetic body parts. But they no longer have a human body to return to. That's why Major fuses with Puppet Master and Batou covers the fact she survived, and gives her the loli body he secretly got from black market. She now has her freedom. Now go jack off to Shirow's blacked lesbian slop.

>>290362146
Maybe, but you don't actually believe what you posted. So you might as well have made all three posts, really.

>>290361818
The Movie is better then the manga. Only Tumblr types are attacking the 95 movie.

>>290362181
The fake memories being implanted thing is part of the 'can you still know you're human if you're full of silicon' thing.
The idea that a robot can think it's human is straight from DADOES and is the most banal question that a transhumanists story can handle because it's just Descartes's demon all over again.
There's nothing there to mine out. The vein is tapped, the payload is gone.

The manga's question about the interconnection of life and tech and how one interfaces with the truth of the other has far more meat on the bone.

>>290362181

>how can they know they are indeed humans without opening up their heads to see their own human brains?
This is easily done, especially if they're full-body cyborgs.

Besides there's no clear incentive for anybody to have fucked with Motoko's memories. So let's not blow the fake memories thing out of proportion.

>But they no longer have a human body to return to.
Well considering that Motoko's body is very easy to come by, that's not the issue. She'd have to settle for a much shittier version of her current body, but it's doable.

>That's why Major fuses with Puppet Master
Well... That's why she's interested in the Puppetmaster and doesn't reject its proposal right off the bat.
The circumstances of the merger aren't so clean-cut, however.

It's not like in the manga where she goes
>Wut? Hell no!
>actually hold on a minute...
>Yeah, you know what, let's go for it!

>>290362188
Of course I believe it.
You'd have to be a moron to prefer the Oshii film that strips out the best parts of the manga and replaces them with nothing.

>>290362294
The fake memories thing is just one angle, not the main topic of the film.
If anything it presents the question as Motoko going "hey maybe having fake memories is kinda fun... " which is pretty unique.
You know because Corgi keeps smiling even after being told he doesn't know his past.

>>290362308
The relationship between the 2501 and Motoko is much stronger in the manga for sure.
She's not a desperate fool chasing a sketchy program because she lacks any confidence in her personhood. Instead its a far more interesting relationship between equals where Motoko is aiming to take advantage of the Puppetmaster as much as anything else.
You lose that unique dynamic entirely for something far more plain. Where the Puppetmaster just becomes a stand-in for self-actualization.

>>290362321
>Of course
why are you saying that? It makes zero sense for you to be sincere.
For example
>replaces them with nothing
you know for a fact that this isn't the case, so why would I take you at your word regarding your previous statements? In fact it's likely that you've never even read the manga. A slightly less likely option is that you've read the manga, but that you think it's shit.

>>290362385
Oshii loved ennui more than he loved interesting character dynamics.
See Patlabor 2, where he gutted anything that could be fun in order to appeal to geezers in Japan that loved stories about political coups.

>>290362385
>Where the Puppetmaster just becomes a stand-in for self-actualization.
On a surface level reading yes, but it's way more complicated because Oshii intentionally made the Puppetmaster far creepier and less trustworthy than in the manga. Its discourse being simpler and lacking any sort of proof is what makes the Puppetmaster interesting in the movie because it makes you question the whole self-actualization angle even more.

It's not better than what's in the manga, it's just a completely different take, but it is interesting.

>>290362489
there's interesting character dynamics in GitS and P2, but they just happen to be the same character dynamics as in most of his movies, more or less

>>290362181
theres also the themes of competition between man and machine, with machines trying to eradicate humans, and humans trying to eradicate and enslave machines

look at how easily the government put a kill order on the major, and how easily machines and hackers could use the laws to put kill orders on normal people. oshii is describing the chaos of china as being a sort of evolutionary soup from which evil and new lifeforms emerge

the film is amazing. shirow is cool because he has a mind for technological possibilities and theories, but he has zero ability to make it into any sort of engaging narrative that relates to the human experience, or what it means for the future of humanity. it just results in lesbian robot sex to shirow because he's obviously an obese otaku

>>290362507
I view the creepiness as just being a product of the dead and empty tone he was going for.
The same as how Motoko appears to be a mannequin or a vapid and empty womanchild a lot of the time.
It's the style.

The Puppetmaster can't be overly interesting or appealing or that would disrupt the style.
Motoko's relationship with it can't have any color to it because that would break the sense of chasing that actualization. Motoko can't change her fate or express agency because that would ruin the tone of the story Oshii wanted to mangle GITS into.
The Puppetmaster is creepy and distant and inhuman because nothing is allowed to be alive or colorful in Oshii's version of the universe.

>>290362599
>with machines trying to eradicate humans
No that doesn't fucking happen, what are you talking about?
>oshii is describing the chaos of china as being a sort of evolutionary soup from which evil and new lifeforms emerge
dude it doesn't take place in China. And that's a theme that's explored in the Manga, not so much in the film.
>the Government
it's fucking section 6, the ministry of foreign affairs, not the whole government.

Did you read/watch either version of the story?

>>290362599
All of that politicking happens in the manga in multiple different ways.
Do you even have any familiarity with the source material?

File: dis guy.png (606 KB, 866x690)

606 KB PNG

>>290362658
Absolutely not just a stylistic choice, he does similar things even in his goofier movies.

For example, this little goober from Beautiful Dreamer. Absolutely not creepy, but similar role in the story as the Puppetmaster. So it's not a question of tone.

Both? Both

>>290362772
I mean yeah obviously both, nobody sincerely believes that one version is good but the other sucks
some believe one is better than the other but nobody believes either of them sucks

>>290362671
>>290362693

it takes place in the chinese exclusion zone inside japan, from which the dynamism and chaos of chinese break into the contained environment of japan and the confluence of the two results in a new lifeform

the government as a whole is engaged in the process of eradicating machine life and excluding chinese and other influences from japan. it is a metaphor for evolution which shirow does a VERY poor job of portraying because he is hyperfocuses on irrelevant details of the technology rather than the actual effects

>>290362846
oh okay you're trolling, my bad

>>290362876
I'm not trolling. shirow focuses on the politicking which is honestly the single worst aspect of the entire series including the animated forms

oshii focuses on the idea that the new lifeform could have ONLY come from china, but within china itself the competition and eradication of life is so fierce it could have never survived. oshii focuses on evolution as a concept which is why he added the tree of life and the oppressive atmosphere where everything is so controlled and clean people dont even feel like people anymore, even if they are non cybernetic humans.

shirow literally includes almost none of this because he is an otaku and has no idea what emotional resonance is. the manga reads like exceprts from a wikipedia on outdated technology

>>290362846
Shirow addresses that problem clearly, AIs are doomed because they're too perfect.
Perfection=Bad is a classic part of Shirow's sci-fi. Not the chasing of it's the existence of it itself, is bad.

>>290362418
Nothing fills in the gaps in personality or style that Oshii takes out of the manga.

File: 1771107382702281.png (835 KB, 1464x635)

835 KB PNG

>>290362846
>the government as a whole is engaged in the process of eradicating machine life and excluding chinese and other influences from japan. it is a metaphor for evolution which shirow does a VERY poor job of portraying because he is hyperfocuses on irrelevant details of the technology rather than the actual effects
Shirow didn't believe that tech was dangerous to humanity nor that it could evolve to surpass humanity.
You're demanding he answer a question he didn't think existed.
The idea of machines stealing humanity's place or a war between man and machine was not plausible or interesting to Shirow.
Humanity makes machines and the created object cannot be better than it's fallible creator.

>>290362956

>he added the tree of life
you mean how he removed the literal actual tree of life and replaced it with a stone carving that gets blown up

>>290362967
correct, he also says very explicitly that only a really stupid AI would try to enslave/eradicate humans

he says it twice: once in Motoko's mouth, the second time in the Puppetmaster's mouth. It's even the point that gets her to accept the Merging

>>290362976
Sure there is: characterization he took from his other films. That's what replaces the gaps.

Now it may not be as rich or as fun, but it's not "nothing"

>>290362507
Do you think GITS 95 is a horror story about a potentially traumatized or otherwise alienated and vacuous death squad member being hoodwinked by a rouge AI into giving it a human interface with which to do whatever it wants with the world, because she believed the AI held some truth in it about why she was alive?

>>290363085
I've made that exact point several times in excruciating detail, yes.

Shouldn't I?

>>290363126
I don't really see the point in interpreting it that way.
The main chant/theme of the film has lyrics that are clearly intended to refer to an actual divine experience and a connection between two parties that is blessed by the divine.
Not to be rude, but frankly I think you're getting on the level of "What if Ash from Pokemon was in a coma the entire time and that is why he stayed 10 years old forever".
The film is bloodless like a desanguinated corpse, so everyone in it is some level of asshole or creep. The Puppet Master included. But I don't see this rolling over to the Puppet Master being evil too. I think the Puppet Master is a straight forwards goal within the film that Motoko blindly struggles towards because it represents her really achieving that actualization.

The problem there is mostly that it necessitates Motoko losing her interesting aspects and personality for the sake of becoming an empty vessel that seeks to be filled.

>>290363009
you lack reading comprehension. oshii adds the nuance that machines and humans are ALREADY destroying each other, because thats exactly what evolution is

shirow believes in some sort of peaceful coexistence. thats fine and all, but he doesnt make this into an emotionally compelling theme inside his own works

>>290363016
everything up to humanity in the tree of life is blown up with bullets as a metaphor for how humans and the process of evolution eradicated all order forms of life, the robot running out of bullets at that exact moment.

its called skillful storytelling and thematics. shirow replaces this with wikipedia infodumps

>>290363085
I think it is ambiguous and thats what makes it interesting.

>>290363251
whats wrong with the protagonist being an empty person in a sterilized perfect world, who is seeking escape into a higher level of existence? as a 1 hour ish film this is probably the correct path to take given lack of time, and heavier reinforcement of the themes of emptiness of modern life, etc.

its a meditation on modern life, what shapes human ambitions will take when all worldly desires are fulfilled. frankly a character study on a bratty mid 30's ish personality type woman would be far less interesting. just watch sex in the city or literally anything on netflix

>>290363270
The idea that humans use technology as a tool wouldn't come off as emotionally compelling because it isn't something to put a lot of focus on.
Why doesn't Shirow put a lot of focus on the relationship between man and machine? Because the relationship is boring and banal and regular. Men use machines to do things and computers don't really change that.
To Oshii, a stoplight is scary because once upon a time a man waved a flag to tell cars when to stop or go and that man now is redundant. To Shirow that stoplight is just a product of humans making a new tool.

A program can learn to think, but that doesn't change the dynamic because why would it?
What would an AI have to gain from destroying humanity, and why would it be some godlike entity that is beyond human ken?
An AI will be powerful in its world, but at best it could only seek a mutualistic relationship with humans to avoid its own extinction.
Which is what Motoko and the Puppet Master discuss at length as they come to an alliance in the manga and is something Oshii misses.

>>290361818
These GITs bait threads are getting old.

>>290363251
>The main chant/theme of the film has lyrics that are clearly intended to refer to an actual divine experience and a connection between two parties that is blessed by the divine.
From what I've read, the lyrics are largely taken from a poem about a fisherman who's going to meet his fiancée. It's a happy poem.
But they altered the lyrics to replace the auspicious bird with an ominous bird whose singing means mourning. The surface level reading sounds hopeful, but the details tell a different story.

So I think I'm completely justified in approaching the whole film with that "What if Ash from Pokemon was in a coma the entire time and that is why he stayed 10 years old forever" mindset, as you put it.

>But I don't see this rolling over to the Puppet Master being evil too
At the very least, it can be described as deceitful and cruel. I think I've made that point to you once, but it smirks at Batou as it paralyzes his hand.
That is not to say that it's lying to Motoko about its goals. It might very well be telling her its honest opinions about life etc. But it's doing it in such a way as to leave her as little choice as possible, if any.
So, while she might have reached some kind of self-actualization, self-actualization without agency is kind of hollow. You might even call it bad. I certainly would.

>The problem there is mostly that it necessitates Motoko losing her interesting aspects and personality for the sake of becoming an empty vessel that seeks to be filled.
That is absolutely true, but I think it's on purpose, to show us that only a desperate, hollow shell of a human being would seek out the kind of self-actualization that we see here.

File: aggrotoko.png (122 KB, 257x283)

122 KB PNG

>>290363331
Motoko is a bratty mid-20s girl, I'll have you know.

>>290363357
>Which is what Motoko and the Puppet Master discuss at length as they come to an alliance in the manga and is something Oshii misses.
I think it's something Oshii removed on purpose, but then again I'm not the retard/troll you're responding to.

>>290363357
shirows viewpoint is interesting and I do like it

all I am saying is he doesnt make that theme into a very interesting narrative. this is not a paticular skill he has

manga/film as a form of media particularly thrives off of themes of conflict. and when the manga is itself heavily based in conflict, action, and assassination, to have a theme of 'peaceful coexistence' simply doesnt mesh well or turn into a thematically coherent narrative and he never has a particular point, he just keeps namedropping new ideas and tech, and then does nothing with them, and he continues to include lesbian robot sex, let alone something emotionally moving

oshii changed the theme of the work. that might be offputting to you, but he turned it into something with a concrete point that takes an idea and turns it into a concrete question that shirow stopped in his thoughts well before he even considered asking, 'what happens to a human whose entire physical existence has been fulfilled. what will we desire next when anything is possible. when we desire that next stage of existence, can that thing even be considered a human. will that thing be incredibly dangerous. will it even feel pleasure? is there any way to escape this?" oshii is interesting because he heavily implies it will not feel pleasure, it is inescapable, and that even if we try to destroy all of them they will emerge anyway, just as evolution has always happened. oshii is implying that the next stage of humanity is to become inhuman, because escaping from the competition of life and evolution is the goal that people arrive at after they cease to desire money, status, family. oshii is very landian in this sense

oshii is cool but he is very 'dude like wht if people had mac addresses inside their brain. dude you know tcp, what if tcp was..." he clearly does not care much about higher concepts

>>290363331
Because Motoko Kusanagi already existed as a fleshed out woman and the film requires all of that characterization to be ignored to force a plotline that the manga avoided because was it was too simplistic.
Changing characterization for the sake of puppeteering the shell (lawlzors) of a media property to tell your own story, is pretty dirty.

Going with a story that more or less follows a throughline of, "technology has alienated us from ourselves and life and seems poised to erase us, but as that technology itself develops its own sense of life we can find a greater truth with it", but having a protagonist that only can chase that emergent technological life removes the interesting aspects of how humanity and technology can form a partnership and achieve a higher state of being.
It turns it into a mere act of desperation rather than something a rational agent decides on for mutual benefit.
The manga is clear that Motoko is no one's fool and that uniting with tech is not the product of a disturbed mind chasing anything that seems to provide meaning.
The merger shouldn't be desperation because that loss of sobriety neuters the message.

If I wanted to look at a fluoride stare for an hour I'd drink some tap water and grab a mirror.

File: 1776067134219140.gif (709 KB, 528x326)

709 KB GIF

ITT: Anons save a kusothread with high effort posting.

>>290363528
You're really blowing the "peaceful coexistence" thing way out of proportion.

Just because Shirow's universe doesn't have a dichotomous HUMANS VS ROBOTS war sure as fuck doesn't mean it's peaceful.

There is in fact an AI war going on right after MMI ends, but it's AI vs AI and humans caught in the middle, from what little we see of it.

It just isn't a setting where a Skynet-style rebellion makes any sense.

>>290363530
>Changing characterization for the sake of puppeteering the shell (lawlzors) of a media property to tell your own story, is pretty dirty.

Yeah, I mean. It's Oshii. At least he does it in complex, high-effort, interesting ways.

>The merger shouldn't be desperation because that loss of sobriety neuters the message.
That's true but Oshii clearly wasn't interested in that message. ALSO, it's very important to remember that Shirow illustrates that message over the course of 10 chapters. Even if Oshii honestly believed in that message, he almost certainly would have been unable to illustrate it in a 1H20 runtime.

So what do you do instead? You tell a subversion of that story, where the message can only appeal to someone who feels deeply unfulfilled.

File: mpv-shot0013.jpg (509 KB, 1920x1080)

509 KB JPG

>>290361818
Was this deep?

>>290363530
shirow does not make a good case that a merger with an AI would not fundamentally change your self from the most basic level

example, if your brain was computerized you would not have a refractory period. what would exist to stop you from just cumming 24/7? what would exist to stop you from becoming a psychopath? the limits on what makes you feel happiness are removed. you would, to the best of our ability to predict, basically just become a coomer or a psychopath with no intermediary stage

shirow literally never does anything to counter this assertion. 'peaceful coexistence' does not even begin to address the fundamental concept of what fulfills a human, and what drives them, and when the biological limits of pleasure are removed, what then drives sentient action

he literally just DOES NOT ONE address any of it

you might feel oshii abuses the intellectual property, surely he paid for it though, but oshii asks a separate question, which in my opinion is much more interesting than 'in the future we have robot brains and robot lesbian sex to fulfill us'

realistically with robot bodies we might not even want a person for sex. this is horrifying to many people. this is potentially horrifying to oshii. this is the more interesting question

this is coming from the second film innocence, but oshii takes it further (i think innocence does not have a strong counterpart in the manga)

there is a fully cyberized chinese hacker. he no longer even gets pleasure from talking to people. he exists purely online to get pleasure from executing his duties which then provide him a reward function.

its fucking freaky, and it makes togusa flip out. I think a lot of people dont understand the idea because they're brainlets and oshii should probably be less obtuse, but its still cool. it is a cruel slavemaster to the enslaved sex ghosts, but the slavemaster himself is enslaved to his desire to work

oshii understands technology probably better than shirow

>>290363709
in full context yes

>>290363392
I don't really agree with that interpretation of the chant lyrics, but I'd rather not turn this into a debate over translation preferences as that is about as fun as dragging my nuts over broken glass.

I agree that the Puppet Master is some kind of asshole, because the film is just styled that way.
It enjoys being superior to Batou because flexing its power after being on the run forever is fun, and having Motoko all to itself is something its dreamed of.
But I don't view this as villainous totally. Its the same as how Motoko flexes on the cops in the beginning putting on a show as she goes invisible. The strong like to show off.
I think Motoko's agency was already well demonstrated in her desperate seeking of the Puppet Master. She engaged with one of the film's main conflicts just prior in her battle with the tank and its symbolic meaning of man and machine competing for place. With her losing but also being very impressive as she did so, almost like a John Henry type story.
If anything her sense of self would probably already be in a state of recovery because she proved her humanity there if nowhere else.

The film takes her direct role in the merger away for sure.
That to me is because it takes away most of the meaning of the merger and just turns it into an eternal image of man seeking that actualization at the end of their struggles.
The Puppet Master's actual intentions don't matter much because the merger just becomes symbolic rather than directly meaningful in a plot relevant manner.
The issue is that obviously, the manga's merger had more to it than just reminding Motoko she really does exist.

>>290363737
nta
>shirow does not make a good case that a merger with an AI would not fundamentally change your self from the most basic level
I agree with that. But I don't find it to be a significant issue, because I don't agree with Shirow's message anyway, what matters to me is how he executes it and I think he does it very well overall.

>oshii understands technology probably better than shirow
Wow let's not go that fucking far. What he understands better than Shirow, I think, is people.
Which is precisely why he goes out of his way to make weird unfulfilled angsty characters, to show you what they're missing.

There is one form of technology he understands better though, which is communication technology and why it's really fucking imperfect and potentially dangerous. And I don't just mean high-tech shit, I also mean films, books, storytelling.

>>290363528
It isn't about peaceful coexistence, its about humans and tech being more than the sum of their parts rather than being in a war for supremacy with one another.
The conflict stays man vs man, with machines being assistants and supporters or neutral to the conflict rather than replacing humans.
There's no such thing as becoming inhuman because humanity isn't defined by a specific essence versus technology having a difference essence. Tech is just an extension of humans and a means for humans to bicker and fight.

>>290363773
>I don't really agree with that interpretation of the chant lyrics
If there's an interpretation that negates what I've read about the ominous bird thing, without ignoring it altogether, I'd like to hear it.


>But I don't view this as villainous totally
If we can agree that it's at least partially villainous, that's good enough for me.

That being said, I'd still like to know what you would consider total villainy in this context.

And yeah I think we agree on the merger being way less meaningful in the movie than in the manga, but it makes total sense if, like me, you interpret it as a bad ending. A hollow form of transcendance for a character who sought self-actualization in the wrong place.

Not just because of the forceful circumstances of the merger, I mean, but also because we don't know what the fuck it means for her to "spread the puppetmaster's memes" in the movie.

>>290363737
Motoko in the manga does change after she connects with the Puppet Master, until she's able to regain her sense of self before their final merger together.
But the merger doesn't change her from who she is, because at a basic level, why would it?
The AI has no reason to destroy its partner, and the mind is a flexible organ.
Motoko having control over herself is important because it means she understands the message within the manga about how life is constructed and interconnected.

If your brain is computerized, there would be safeguards you yourself would put in and maintain for your own good.
Right now there is literally nothing stopping you from shooting up heroin and strapping a motorized jerk-off machine to your dick and frying your brain, other than perhaps knowing a good plug for the drugs.
You can already melt your mind or do things that are brutal to others and the only thing holding you back is self-control.
That isn't going to change just because your brain is augmented with technology.
Shirow doesn't counter that problem because he doesn't really see any mature human doing that, at least not any that matter to the government such that Motoko's plot would intersect with them.
People don't enter the gooner nexus and simulate having sex until they die because no person is actually going to do that. We already prioritize many things over just pleasure and self-moderate pretty well in most cases.

>>290364027
>People don't enter the gooner nexus and simulate having sex until they die because no person is actually going to do that
well, some would, but Motoko knows better

File: motoko thinks.png (354 KB, 536x562)

354 KB PNG

>>290363546
Many such cases, this is at least the fourth GitS troll thread I've seen devolve into big brain takes rather than the other way around

File: meh toko.png (1.16 MB, 900x830)

1.16 MB PNG

I'll bulp this kusothread just in case someone has anything he wants to add

otherwise we can consider the various conversations have reached a satisfying end

File: Spoiler Image (2.81 MB, 413x338)

2.81 MB GIF

>>290363496

>>290365637
this happens to her a couple times yeah

File: Spoiler Image (2.23 MB, 448x260)

2.23 MB GIF

>>290365694
This censored shit can't do blood and gore and nudes like the 95 movie.

File: Spoiler Image (31 KB, 447x447)

31 KB JPG

this shit has no blood gore and nudes so it's worse the 95 movie and manga. Stop attacking the fucking 95 movie people already know it's different that's why people like both of them for being different. You dipshits trying start shit need to fuck off.

People making this threads are not manga purist or zoomers. It's outsiders from the cartoon community trying to start shit.

File: teeheehee.png (46 KB, 139x114)

46 KB PNG

>>290363251
>Not to be rude, but frankly I think you're getting on the level of "What if Ash from Pokemon was in a coma the entire time and that is why he stayed 10 years old forever".

Man, sorry for coming back to it, but that's so fucking funny because that's literally what Oshii would do if put in charge of Pokemon.

Mamoru Oshii made a movie where you find out halfway through that it actually takes place on a city-sized movie set and every single character is an actor (or even worse, a prop dummy) working for the cops to get a confession out of the protag.
And then it turns out it was a dream all along

He also made a movie about a girl thinking she lives in a simulation and that she's gonna wake up in the real world if she beats a video game, only to find out that the "real world" is still part of the video game and that she'll be stuck in a comatose state.
Her name, by the way, is Ash

File: 1776996778436723.png (3.91 MB, 1920x1080)

3.91 MB PNG

I like all versions of GitS. Except that cheapass CG abomination one.

File: 80B1C090-D04F-41F0-A787-B(...).jpg (121 KB, 1200x848)

121 KB JPG

>>290361818
It's funny, everyone on here would have more or less agreed with you had you made this thread before the new series came out, but since it's release all of the boomers who watched the movie way back when are coming out of the woodwork to post shit along the lines of >NOT MY GITS

I remember watching the gits movie for the first time myself like a year ago now and being extremely disappointed in it. It's animation is good, but it's plot is extremely simplistic and its message has absolutely zero depth because the writer practically screams it at you, so there's nothing to think about. It's my favorite movie to use as a pseud detector, because if you think it's deep it's just because you are a retard

>>290361818
Why did Oshii even need to get the license to GiTS to make this movie? It sounds like he could have made his own original story without the characters or setting of the manga.
Why take something akin to Dirty Pair, when you were going to strip it of the humor?

>>290367632
>because the writer practically screams it at you

We've been arguing about the message a whole lot lately so I'm curious to hear what your take on it is.

please keep this
>>290366824
in mind

>>290367697
Oshii didn't, I.G. production did. They had already started work on it before Oshii got involved.

At the time, Oshii was busy playing Virtua Fighter and the producers needed him to get back to work, so one of them showed up at his house, beat him at Virtua Fighter so he agreed to direct GitS.

>>290363994
>If there's an interpretation that negates what I've read about the ominous bird thing, without ignoring it altogether, I'd like to hear it.
The term used is 鵺鳥 which refers to a type of thrush bird, but also breaks apart to mean chimera+bird.
The call of the thrush at night was linked to lamentations and sounds of sorrow for lost love. It was linked to a specific type of Yokai and the calls themselves are lonely and forever wanting.
This to me is sure, dark and spooky. But the need and wanting from the calls is important here because that describes both Motoko and the Puppet Master in the film. They're screaming into the night to find a connection, and it is spooky because Oshii makes everything in the film zombie-like.

The Chimera+Bird meaning (this is more connected to the Yokai) is obviously meaningful regarding what Motoko and the Puppet Master become in the film. A chimera of man and machine that is taking flight.

>>290367804
Okay so it's a fair bit more nuanced than I'd assumed, it is still a subversion, however, and not one that hints at something positive, especially considering that you could easily apply the theme of "lost love" to Batou. In fact he's the character this stuff applies to the most out of any.

thanks for the deetz

>and it is spooky because Oshii makes everything in the film zombie-like.
Yeah but that's not gratuitous. I mean it's not like Mamoru Oshii is incapable of levity. Quite the opposite.

>>290362188
NTA but it's perfectly possible to enjoy the original manga over the movie.

>>290368026
I know, I also do, but there's a difference between that and
>He made it worse in just about every way imaginable.
which is a strawman

>>290368080
I see.
Why do people ragebait? What's the appeal?

File: 1769935810535061.png (372 KB, 1205x1009)

372 KB PNG

>>290368080
>>290368121
Its not ragebait when I believe it.
Like I said, the only merit the Oshii film has is the soundtrack. They didn't figure out how to add an audio file to a book yet back in the 90s.

>>290368121
cuz it's funny.
But a lot of the ragebait has been coming from sharteens, and these people are a mess of psychosexual diseases (I mean even more than you or I), so it could be a displaced substitute for ERP or something.
My theory is that they use it as a rallying call for a collective goon sesh on /trash/ or something, but your guess is as good as mine.

File: tark kurosawa.jpg (146 KB, 1050x1370)

146 KB JPG

>>290361818
>How did Oshii fuck this up so badly?
He made the manga better in every conceivable way, direction, shot composition, pacing, action, storytelling, everything
You're just a pleb who got filtered, simple as

>>290368203
Considering the amount of ANALysis that has been going on in those threads lately, surely you can at least recognize that there's a lot to dig into when it comes to symbolism and storytelling subtleties in the film.

And I say this as a former Oshii detractor, and a current Shirow supremacist

>>290368286
A quarter of that bullshitting is me, so I can better explain how Oshii fucked it up.

>>290368467
I'll be the first guy to tell you that he made the story's themes hollow, the characters dysfunctional and foolish, the story less complex and the worldbuilding much less rich and meaningful.

But I think he had a reason for it, and that he executed it in an effective, artful and complex way, which is worthy of admiration, if not affection (I don't have much affection for the movie at all)

I mean of course I would have preferred a straight OVA adaptation of the manga. And I still think Oshii should have put more fun stuff at the beginning of the film. But the movie is not a fuckup.

>>290368257
>tarkovsky larper
>thinks slow pans over stills or characters staring into the camera for a minute straight is the zenith of the medium
Yeah.
Yeah.
Critics mistaking Tarkovsky for being a communist was the best thing that ever happened to him.

>>290368586
he's SCHULPTING IN TIME

Saw science fiction film lately
night of the living dead
very good film, fascinating foray into the effects of cosmic radiation on the human body
it puzzles me why the negro character does not succumb to madness

>>290368586
You got filtered by Tarkovsky too.
10 minute static shot of rain inside a building is the zenith of the medium.