>>290819435
>What's stopping one of the Troop members from going "in exchange for blindness, I'll always know where the chain user is".
The Troop members don't want to be blind.

>>290819435
a genuine 80iq thread, wow

>>290819435
>What's stopping one of the Troop members from going "in exchange for blindness, I'll always know where the chain user is"
They need a strong conviction for that. The spiders are a jaded bunch

>>290819740
>>290819731
Let me ask you, if Kurapika is fighting a fire user, in his mind he can say "in exchange for taking 3x damage against electricity, I'll be immune to fire". There is nothing contradicting this and we see people in a split second making a vow and it going through. So the question is, after the fight is over, can Kurapika go "half damage against lightning, I'll take 8x damage against water"?
>can you modify an existing vow or contract?
>can you make 2 different vows/contracts at the same time that either contradict or affect each other?
>if you can alter the contract/vow, do you need stronger emotions or restrictions than the initial one? -can you cancel a vow or contract?
>if you can cancel it, what's stopping someone going "I want all the nen I'll ever have" and then only use it for 1 minute and then cancel it before the negative effects happen?
>if you make a vow with negative consequences, can you make a different one that negates those consequences? Eg can Gon say "in exchange for living until I lay 35, I'll get nen again?"
>can you make a vow for something that is outside of normal human abilities, ex "in exchange for having glass bones and paper skin, I will grow to 35 feet tall"?

If you do have any answers to these, I'd like manga chapters or episodes and not implications and headcanons.

>caught danchou like nothing
>killed uvogin like nothing
The spiders don't even dared to mention his name anymore, much less seek him

its funny how you think you should be taken seriously on 4chan

Its nen i ain't gotta explain squat.

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>>290819944
I think OP is a copy pasta

>>290819944
I'm talking about anime and manga on an anime and manga board.

>>290819435
>the guy whose power is stealing and collecting powers pulled out a new power for a battle that he extensively prepared for

Imagine using this as an example of an asspull from that battle instead of, well, you know.

>>290819554
Okay cool. None of that is explained in the show.

>>290820012
>Its nen i ain't gotta explain squat.

wrong, with nen you literally have to explain everything. in crushing detail.

>>290819435
>battle shonen is for retards
groundbreaking discovery

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>>290819435
Is this the true power of not reading the manga?

>>290820979
Read
>>290819805

If you do have any answers to these, I'd like manga chapters or episodes and not implications and headcanons.

>>290820753
The problem is that Togashi only explains things when it's convenient.

>>290819435
How dare a guy whose power is to take powers have more powers?!

>>290821248
The problem is that its never explained how he overcame his restriction.

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What else can this horse woman do?

>>290819731
Not a single person has refuted what the OP said.

>>290819805
>can you modify an existing vow or contract?
Yes
>can you make 2 different vows/contracts at the same time that either contradict or affect each other?
You can violate a contract, yes
>if you can alter the contract/vow, do you need stronger emotions or restrictions than the initial one? -can you cancel a vow or contract?
Its a one way street, contracts can only get more complex

>if you can cancel it, what's stopping someone going "I want all the nen I'll ever have" and then only use it for 1 minute and then cancel it before the negative effects happen?
You can't cancel a contract, only violate it

>if you make a vow with negative consequences, can you make a different one that negates those consequences? Eg can Gon say "in exchange for living until I lay 35, I'll get nen again?"
Yes but the means to do this will be extraordinary

>can you make a vow for something that is outside of normal human abilities, ex "in exchange for having glass bones and paper skin, I will grow to 35 feet tall"?
Yes

>>290821864
Give manga chapters and examples otherwise this is headcanon. And even then, this a problem since people can manifest powers out of nowhere and break the tension.

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>>290819435

>>290819435
...He trained offscreen and upgraded his ability.

Are you retarded? Do you think only main protagonists are allowed to evolve their powers?

>>290819435
>What's stopping one of the Troop members from going "in exchange for blindness, I'll always know where the chain user is".
Nen is not that convenient. You have to make meaningful exchanges, not random ones. You have to still make an ability, not just get information out of nowhere. Someone could possibly make a locator hatsu for tracking other nen users but the conditions would have to mean something like requiring DNA from the target to get the search going and then the ability has to go on cooldown once the target is found. You can blind yourself, but then you're a blind person with a tracking ability which is fucking retarded.

>>290822373
Without any explanation which is the problem. Are you not reading?

>>290821282
>The problem is that its never explained how he overcame his restriction.

He stole the bookmark power from someone else, obviously.

>>290822704
Who? And how? No explanation.

>>290822209
Uhh no, Ill give you one example if you really want it? Tell me what you disagree with most

>>290822758
Saying "yes" and not elaborating isn't an argument.
The issue with all of this is that it lowers the stakes if anyone can do anything at any time and it's not explained enough to know what they can or can't do. You want super durability? You got it. You want super speed? You got it. You want laser blasts? You got it?.... All you need is a strong enough restriction and seemingly anything is possible and we just have to accept it.

Give me examples to answer each of the questions.

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>>290822750
how is this not an explanation. he was forced to change his skill hunter when he stole an ability that required both hands, it obviously couldn't work if he still has to hold a stupid book so he added additional requirements to fulfill when stealing in exchange for being able to manifest a bookmark.

>>290822818
O_O I'm not really arguing anon. You asked a bunch of questions and I answered them. If you disagree with something you need to narrow it down for me

>>290822818
>All you need is a strong enough restriction and seemingly anything is possible and we just have to accept it.
It's insane to even be reading a shounen if this concept bothers you

>>290822750
Not everything needs to be explained in exhaustive detail to the reader. Sometimes you have to make connections based on implications. What you call headcanon is just general writing conventions.

>>290822818
this is the kind of behaviour that western education instills, this guy just thinks he's owed an explanation as if it's his birth-right, when in reality he should be beaten ceaselessly until he accepts the social norm

>>290822978
I asked you to provide examples for each of your yes responses to my questions.

>>290823046
Headcanon is usually reserved for harmless, inconsequential things otherwise you're having the audience write the story for itself. Why and how he's suddenly able to change his abilities is something that the narrative should explanation.

>>290822888
Yes but HOW he did this has no explanation.

>>290823118
Anon, you straight-up don't understand how vague that request is. It's very weird to me. Stop acting so coy and just tell me where you disagree

>>290823365
I asked if you can use a vow to change your body. The motorcycle lady is a conjurer and a transmuter. That's her nen ability. I asked about vows. Your evidence was something that was not a vow. Because you have no evidence stating that you could alter your body in such a way with a vow, I'm saying that it is something that is not explained. SO, of the 7 things that I asked, you had no evidence for 6 of them. Meaning that they are not explained, which was my issue. You said that we haven't seen the answers to a few of my questions, but we don't need to see them. If they were properly explained, we wouldn't need to directly see them. We would know what they could and could not due, so when we did actually see them, we would know if they are within the rules or breaking the rules. If someone cancels a vow, I don't know if it's within the rules or breaking the rules because it's not explained. If someone contradicts a vow, I don't know if it's within the rules or breaking the rules. Because it's not explained. That was my point and you did nothing but prove that. So, Killua can show up in chapter 500, having made a vow that his lighting can kill anyone and anywhere but he can never talk to Gon again and we would just have to accept that he just did because no rules were broken but the only reason that no rules were broken was because there were no rules in play to begin with.

There really isn't a good reason that Kurapika is the only person to devote his ability to specific targets.

>>290823437
Oh, I see the problem. My bad >_<

I should have told you that I’m NTA. I just opened the thread, saw the questions being asked, and felt like answering them. Sorry, just to clarify again, I’m not that anon. I’m just some random person.

>>290823331
Why does there need to be an explanation for how he did it? What's the obsession with needing to know the details of it beyond exactly what's stated?

>>290819435
good thread, togHACKshi a massive fraud.

>>290819435
>This is the problem with Hunter X Hunter
This happens in literally every battle shounen.
>The characters can manifest powers out of nowhere
Almost never. It almost always takes time and concentration. Do you not remember how Kurapika had to lick chains? Do you not remember how the exceptionally talented Gon and Killua developed a small ability in a few days and Tsezguerra was blown away?
>Chrollo needed to hold the book, but later he doesn't. Why? Never told
How did you read this but not the explanation? It was the same monologue.
>What's stopping one of the Troop members from going "in exchange for blindness, I'll always know where the chain user is"
Why don't you speak five languages and know how to build a house? It takes time and effort, and your other abilities will become rusty.
>He never said the restrictions
It wasn't important to explain that much to Hisoka or whoever might be listening, but he says it later on the ship.
>how he overcame needing one hand
...the bookmark. Are you blind? Actually, this isn't blindness, I think a part of your brain might be underdeveloped or damaged.
>They sat Gon and Kill down at least 3 time to explain nen and it's still confusing
How many times would you need to be sat down before you understood everything about science? I would guess more than 3. You specifically are struggling to read a children's manga.

>>290819435
I would change it so any ability that Chrollo uses the bookmark on disappears forever the moment and he removes the bookmark. That allows a seriously limitation to keep things balanced

>>290824200
Answer this, retard. You’re not understanding what I'm saying.
>>290819805

>>290819805
>in his mind he can say "in exchange for taking 3x damage against electricity, I'll be immune to fire"
Wouldn't work because there would be little risk. If it was something along the lines of "I'll becomes stronger and faster against fire users but take 3x damage against fire" then that would make more sense

>>290819435
chrollo is planning to upgrade skill hunter again by stealing the kakin royal treasures so it will be explained eventually

>>290824200
We don't see Chrollo doing this changing his vows, he said he did it. We also don't know who he did it, that's my issue.
I ask if they could contradict each other and you didn't have a solid answer, just that we didn't see it in the series. That's not saying that it could or couldn't happen. So, that is something that is not explained.
I asked if you could alter it, would you need stronger emotions. You say it depends on the alteration and what is being changed. We don't see that. You are using head canon because nothing has ever been hinted at. You say "IF Kurapika were to remove", meaning it didn't happen yet. Meaning that this is another thing that is not explained.
-I asked if you could cancel a vow. You said that it hasn't happened. which means it is something that is not explained.
I asked can you make a vow to negate the negative consequences of another. You insulted the question, showed no proof, and moved on. Because you didn't show any evidence, that means that there is no evidence and therefor, something that is not explained.

>>290820719
We like rubber in here.

>>290823331
he did it by DEVELOPING HIS FUCKING NEN

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>>290820774
better than romcoms

>>290819435
The problem is that he gained a massive improvement to his ability that essentially neutralizes half of the previous restrictions, but there's only a vague throwaway line to imply that he has any new restrictions to compensate.

>>290824200
>It takes time and effort
The problem is Gon was capable of sacrificing his future for power almost instantly.
What prevents others from making a similar deal if they know death is right around the corner? Why do all these nen users that could make samson option choices just quietly accept death?

>>290824200
I don't know, Gon seemed to do with no problems at all .

>>290819805
It's not really that complex, man, it's about the restrictions, if he knows he's never going to fight a electricity based nen user, he won't become immune to fire. Kurapika's restrictions works because he hates the troupe and made his life mission to kill them.

>>290829573
>Why do all these nen users that could make samson option choices just quietly accept death?
there are actually not that many human nen users who are as capable as Gon who die in HxH. It's a matter of degree I think. Like are you really expecting Ponzu to do a Ponzu-San? Vince to say OH MY WINDY PALM

>>290829680
nah. he gets power from me filling his bussy with my seed every day

>>290823092
No. Fuck you. It is YOUR job to substantiate it. To be clear, this is not the same as being owned an explanation - it is instead the responsibility of the person making the argument.
>when in reality he should be beaten ceaselessly until he accepts the social norm
You are Russian.

>>290828938
that post is an ironic shitpost btw. nobody was mad that Kaguya had sex. at least not when there were so many other things in the manga to be mad about, like miko.

>>290824200
There's also the issue of people that can just make a vow or contract and wildly change their abilities. In the fight against Hisoka, Chrollo no longer has to hold the book and can now use both hands and 2 abilities at once. The only thing that he said was "I was forced to make some adjustments. Now I have more annoying conditions to deal with but my combat had vastly improved". So now, you can completely change the entire basis of your ability to vastly improve your powers, all off screen, all with no set time that it takes to alter the ability, all in your mind. That's bad. And, we don't even see what those "annoying conditions" that he has to deal with are in the fight. So now, Togashi can reintroduce any characters that he wants, VASTLY, alter their abilities in ways that remove previous restrictions, claim that they now have different weaknesses and never showcase that.

>>290829920
>No. Fuck you. It is YOUR job to substantiate it.
The problem is the guy wanted blanket "examples." It's intellectually dishonest because we don't know what he wants examples of. We are supposed to imagine what he disagrees with, then provide a counterexample for it. It's intellectually dishonest because there is a 100% chance he will not accept the "example" he is given.

You cannot just say "I'm assuming your post is headcannon until you give me proof." That's textbook bad faith. He needs to tell you what he thinks is headcanon.

>>290822888
>>290830138
All I'm asking for here is what exact conditions he has to use his new abilities. The story handwaves it away as just "annoying conditions."
The series never explains it. Togashi can just change abilities on characters whenever he feels like it just so the story can continue.

Kills sister can grant any wish with not negatives to her. She has a restriction, but negates that restriction for Kill. So she can just decide to negate it?
So why is the restriction there in the first place if it can be negated at will?
So with this ability that we know nothing about the main characters life was saved. Is that good story telling?
If it wasn't for Nanako and he mystery power, he would have died without living his dream. Again is that good story telling? Doesn't matter if he is a main character or the main. He survived and we don't have all of the details behind it. Is it good story telling?
So the details of how a character has a restriction that can be deactivated at will that saved a main characters life will be explained at some point. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath.

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>>290830138
you are a rat. a cute sexy rat

>>290819435
Yeah, making your power system too complex can get in the way of the story you want to tell. The rules in shonenshit (and adjucant stuff like Fate) are made to be broken.

>>290830193
Togashi expects you to think for yourself sometimes which a lot of people don't do with this manga. He revealed the annoying conditions. What did Chrollo do that every nen user avoids? He literally explained every single ability he was going to use to Hisoka. Letting other nen users know your ability is high risk. How have people not noticed this by now?

>>290830621
>>290830621
There has been no one that has used converted their life into nen and was changed in anyway. Netero fired a blast of pure nen and was changed, this is an internal thing for Gon, we have nothing to match it against. Why was he able to get all the nen that he would ever have in an instant and have no problem controlling it?
If you were to go from your normal lifting strength to being the strength of Superman it would take time for your body to adjust to the new strength. You say it's a restrictionbut we don't know enough about the rules of restrictions. Can you remove a restriction? How do you create a restriction? How do you enforce it(example, the chains that only work on phantom troupe members, do they work on ex members, if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work?) Can you change restrictions in small ways to fit the situation? Can you transfer it? Can you have multiple restrictions? If you do have multiple restrictions, can you make a restriction that cancels out another restriction? He says that he will use all the nen he will ever havedoes that mean all the nen that he has in him right now? Does that factor in any future training that he may do? There are too many questions about restrictions.

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>>290829573
Gon spent two months seething about Pitou, was effectively already suicidal over Kite and was sent on what was essentially a suicide mission just to get Pitou to heal Kite. The time preparation on the nen vow was already fulfilled by all the negative emotions he was harboring.

>>290830193
Personally, I think it is explained by Chrollo explaining his ability. When you use Bookmark, you need to explain the ability you are going to use on your opponent.

>>290830853
This is such retarded headcanon.

>>290831947
Why?

>>290831947
I know you don't actually think that. I know you are just mad because it's a plausible scenario that explains Chrollo's bookmark that you cannot argue against.

>>290832058
If it's not explained in the show, then it's headcanon, proving me right yet again.

>>290832199
Anon, you did it again; you cannot just say "there is no proof; therefore, you are wrong." That's a bad-faith argument. It's amazing you don't understand this. You have to have a reason you don't believe something.

NEN GUM, I BESEECH YOU...!

>>290830853
Against Hisoka he uses the abilities first and then he explains them. If the condition is "oh you have to explain them quickly while you use them", well, it doesn't seem like that much of a restriction.
The reality is that we don't know the limitations of the Bookmark and it'll probably be explained in a future fight.

>>290829573
The others are not members of the 1 in a billion talent Freecs family line.
That's about it.

>>290832391
I don't believe something that there's zero proof for, retard. Onus is on you.

The troupe seem like they don’t even care about hunting down Kurapika anymore even though he killed the same amount of members as Hisoka.

>>290832794
uvogin was kind of a dick and paku was a woman

>>290819435
>>290819805
Power systems with "contracts" or "binding vows" are fucking shit

>>290832515
Logistically, he has to "demonstrate" the ability first. The cycle is > demonstrate ability > tell what the ability does. I would say it is a little bit of a rat move to need to "demonstrate"

>>290832720
Nah dumbass, you are being intellectually dishonest again. You are confusing "zero proof" with "word of God."

To you, there is no such thing as "evidence"; you either have an ability perfectly explained to you in detail, or there is no "proof." It's one of the most retarded stances I've ever seen, tbf.

>>290832794
Hisoka betrayed the Troupe which is worse in some ways
Besides, killing Troupe members is how you join, normally. Chrollo offered Kurapika a spot on the troupe in Yorknew

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>>290833141
chrollo just wanted that kurtaussy. you dishonest rat

>>290830193
Reminder that Emperor Time was introduced in chapter 83 (2000) and Kurapika's lifespan limitation was introduced in chapter 364 (2017).
I'm sure we'll find out eventually what Chrollo's exact restrictions are, but we don't know them yet and all we can go off is clues and deductive reasoning.

I magically popped a poop out of my ass on this thread

>>290833119
>Logistically, he has to "demonstrate" the ability first.
That's a very weak condition. How do you explain disgusting phone?

you did it OP Togashi cancelled the series after he saw this post

>>290819731
Dumb esl

>>290819435
Yup, congratulations. You figured it out. HxH is, despite the "deep" nen system, totally arbitrary with powers getting asspulled all the time and while the fandom would die defending it, they actually like it because it allows endless speculation about interactions of powers which is totally openended since, again, it's totally arbitrary.

>>290835372
see you next chapter

>>290833073
Yes.
Any kind of contract or vow REQUIRES judgment.
Who determines what is allowed, what sacrifice is enough for what gain? There has to be some intelligence behind it.

If it's your own mind - and thus the limits are you own beliefs - then that opens a massive can of worms. What about hyponizing yourself into believing that having to hop on one leg every Sunday is sufficient sacrifice for a 10000X powerup, then making that vow/contract? OR if you are just crazy then you could pull of crazy shit.

And if it's not you yourself that judges and put limits, then who or what is?

>>290819805
Here's the answer:
It's up to the storyteller to decide, you fucking sperg.

>>290819435
What should bother you is that he's explaining at all to his opponent. Togashi knows this is dumb and wrong, that's why he made genthru who does the dumb and wrong thing but he's actually using the nen system so it wasn't dumb then.

>>290819435
>no explanation
he explains its uses and limitations thoroughly in this very fight and some of the previously unknown conditions for skill hunter are mentioned in last batch
>no build up
he was out of commission for a year in-universe and like a decade IRL, he had time to develop it

>>290830621
Anime characters explaining their abilities is a normal thing, and happens also elsewhere in HxH. It is not unusual enough behaviour to think there is anything deeper about this.

>>290830621
>>290837748
>Anime characters explaining their abilities is a normal thing, and happens also elsewhere in HxH.
I remember that Genthru did it, but it was also a condition to his ability.
I can't really recall any others explaining their abilities to their enemies, aside from Hisoka while he was showing off.
I think most nen users just explain it in their minds or the narrator explains it.

That said, Chrollo explaining his ability doesn't necessarily mean it's a restriction. He used the explanation to his benefit by strategically leaving out the detail that because Sun and Moon is permanent, any conjured object that he puts the symbols on also becomes permanent.
That could have been extrapolated, but because Chrollo gave such a seemingly thorough explanation, Hisoka didn't even consider it until it was too late.

>>290819435
Kurapika is the same. New ability pulled out of his ass every 20 chapters

>>290833119
>You require evidence, that's a retarded stance
What? If there's no proof then there's no proof. You're making shit up to defend this shitty series.

>>290830841
We do see Gon's mental decline, but, out of nowhere, he says "I don't care what happens, I just want all the nen I'll ever have". There was no set up to that contract or vow. In one second, his strength was so far below Pito and in the next he was far above Pito. His mental state does not factor into him getting hundreds of times stronger in a second because he wished for it to happen. You are excusing it because we see his mental decline, that's not my issue. My issue is that there was never a single time where anything like the ability to get all the nen that you will ever have in a second was even hinted at. That's where my criticism of "they can do anything at any time" comes from. He was mentally wrecked and then he got 100x stronger . It's also not like someone taking their life out of nowhere. A better comparison would be someone who is depressed for month and then they take their life with Nuke that has a blast radius of 2 miles but it only targets them. It would be something that they previously did not have and should not have, and there was no evidence that it exists and then they use it. That's what happened with Gon, that's my issue.

>>290819435
Listen you stupid retard
Chrollo was being actively help by the spider during the whole fight.
Most of the bullshit he said during the fight was just that, bullshit.
The main reason Hisoka wants to kill the spider is because while the legs are alive, he wont be able to fight chrollo on a true 1v1.

>>290839177
Liquid oxygen creates brighter flames.

>>290839278
There was never any build up to said vow. Read my arguments before responding.

>>290819435
It is heavily implied that when you invent a nen ability you can't just "delete it", but you can "patch it" adding conditions or exceptions to it.
Chrollo basically added features to his already existing book.

>>290839121
There is no shonen series that explains everything detailed enough to not leave any questions.

>>290839346
Retard. Go make a Reddit thread if you want other pigeons to validate your empty squawking.

>>290839998
None of what I'm saying is empty. These are plot relevant questions that the series has yet to answer.

>>290839945
>Most shounen have shit writing
Wow, say it ain't so.

>>290840532
Not most. All of them.

>>290820742
What's stopping you from selling your eyes and half your kidneys and lungs for cash?
The story never gives an explanation for why you don't do this.

>>290840666
Nice job on trying to avoid the point and trying to get a cheap gotcha.

>>290819435
He developed his ability sometime between Greed Island and the fight, what's hard to understand?
The conditions could be
>Having to have a certain amount of skills in the book before being able to use it
>Stealing something incredibly rare and valuable
>Having to explain your abilities before using it
But none of that really matters, the point of the monologue was to overload Hisoka with information and misdirect him. He was in way over his head when he gave Chrollo ample prep time

>>290840714
Didn't answer the question, or dispute the analogy. Concession accepted.

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>>290839275
Chrollo literally told Hisoka what kind of fight he was getting into, he wasn't bullshitting him at any point.

>>290819435
everything after 339 is not canon

>>290839275
>posting your clowncuck cope headcanon

>>290835311
He doesn't need to explain the ability if he isn't using Bookmark. Disgusting Phone is one-handed. But yeah, I feel like him being able to demonstrate first, then explain is the only weakness of this theory too. Otherwise it's too uncanny a coincidence.

>>290839121
Look, stop saying "evidence" and "examples". That's mainly why what you are doing is baiting. You are acting like you have a position that can be persuaded, then saying, "Well, your evidence and examples aren't proof."

It's baiting and intellectually dishonest, and scummy too

>>290841718
Anon, all you have to do is answer my questions here >>290819805
And then give me examples of said thing happening in the show. Is that seriously too high of a standard for you?

>>290819435
Yeah the system has a good bit of bullshit going on but what you said can be explained
>I will now magically pop out a new ability with no explanation or build up
Any character can essentially make any ability, but said ability is going to be only as good as their potential and current nen. Say Kastro from the Heaven's Arena arc which is plot reason why you shouldn't develop abilities that are outside your area, he made a clone ability when he already had a hit hard hatsu and since that new ability is completely out of his area of expertise, Conjuror+Manipulator, he had no stamina for a drawn out fight with Hisoka and his clone was a shit clone since it didn't interact with the environment. So you could develop any ability but it's going to come at a cost if it's shittily made.

Now we have Chrollo, where on "screen" he magically pooped out a new ability, but in setting he knew he was going to "1v1" Hisoka and he had about a year worth of prep time. You know Kurapika, who is essentially a genius developed his entire kit within six months while learning the fundamentals. With Chrollo he had let's say a year due to the events of post Greed Island till the end of the election arc to alter his current kit in order to be where he currently is. He now has new restrictions on his book, we don't know what they are because his new ability made him more combat efficient so it could be anything unrelated to that, so it's set up for a future event, most likely in the Succession Arc.

Anyone can make any ability, most of those abilities will be shit since the person is shit, restrictions only matter if they matter to the user. Which as you said yourself
>what's stopping people from hypnotizing themselves
We don't know. Maybe the nen will remember who it is and doesn't adjust despite the person thinking they should, maybe it does work and becomes the meta. Overall we only know what's provided as nen as a system is constantly evolving with solid fundamentals.

>>290841781
>Is that seriously too high of a standard for you?
Yes. You don't understand how retarded your criteria is.

>can you modify an existing vow or contract?
No one in the manga says "I'm modifying my vow and contract." We see people doing it, but since they aren't explaining that is what they are doing in detail, to you any explanation is "headcanon."

>>290841913
My criteria is asking basic, plot relevant questions and then asking to see if they're supported by the show. Are you fucking kidding me?

>>290841913
>>290841913
>No one in the manga says "I'm modifying my vow and contract." We see people doing it, but since they aren't explaining that is what they are doing in detail, to you any explanation is "headcanon."
I'm asking for literally any example of this happening in the show whatsoever.

>>290835554
and it's a shit story enjoyed only by retards.

>>290842532
no one believes this

>>290842439
>Yes. You don't understand how retarded your criteria is.

>>290842941
What is your "non retarded criteria" then?

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>>290842460
The standard example is Skill Hunter. But besides this, Paku gives the best example of an ability being created and then later having a vow added to it. Kurapika does this too. He created Chain Jail, then made it stronger by adding the death contract to it. I should mind you, Chrollo isn't modifying an existing contract either, he is adding to it.

There is also some "evidence" that Kite does this too, but that's more abstract.

>>290843466
Can you remove a restriction? How do you create a restriction? How do you enforce it(example, the chains that only work on phantom troupe members, do they work on ex members, if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work?) Can you change restrictions in small ways to fit the situation? Can you transfer it? Can you have multiple restrictions? If you do have multiple restrictions, can you make a restriction that cancels out another restriction? He says that he will use all the nen he will ever havedoes that mean all the nen that he has in him right now? Does that factor in any future training that he may do? There are too many questions about restrictions.

>>290841152
>unable to read between the lines

I'm still wondering what a non retarded criteria would be.

>>290843466
- We don't see Chrollo doing this changing his vows, he said he did it. We also don't know who he did it, that's my issue.
-I ask if they could contradict each other and you didn't have a solid answer, just that we didn't see it in the series. That's not saying that it could or couldn't happen. So, that is something that is not explained.
-I asked if you could alter it, would you need stronger emotions. You say it depends on the alteration and what is being changed. We don't see that. You are using head canon because nothing has ever been hinted at. You say "IF Kurapika were to remove", meaning it didn't happen yet. Meaning that this is another thing that is not explained.
-I asked if you could cancel a vow. You said that it hasn't happened. which means it is something that is not explained.

>>290843954
>Can you remove a restriction?
Probably not; you can lose an ability, though
>How do you enforce it
In Kurapika's case, Judgement Chain kills him if he doesn't use Chain Jail on a Troupe Member. You are confusing vows with restrictions. Kurapika made a literal vow.

>if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work?)
these are all silly questions. Kurapika will straight die in alot of these answers. Judgement chain is serious

>Can you change restrictions in small ways to fit the situation? Can you transfer it?
no

>Can you have multiple restrictions?
Yes.

>can you make a restriction that cancels out another restriction?
I'm having a hard time imagining this. Kurapika's chain jail has a restriction that, if violated, kills him because of a vow. Give an example of what you think conflicting restrictions would be

>He says that he will use all the nen he will ever havedoes that mean all the nen that he has in him right now?
No.
>Does that factor in any future training that he may do?
Yes, Killua literally explains this. Though there is a good argument to be made that it only gives Gon a trained body, not better Nen Skills.

>There are too many questions about restrictions.
This is semi-true. But alot of your understanding will be helped once you understand the difference between vow (or conditions) and restrictions.

>>290845261
>We also don't know how he did it, that's my issue.
Mmm I feel like my Paku example is pretty clear. You can just add more conditions and restrictions to your ability. I don't understand the "how" problem. Like it's almost bullshit Paku and Renko talk about litterally what you are wondering about, and you still don't understand.

>I ask if they could contradict each other and you didn't have a solid answer
Yes. This question doesn't make sense. Restrictions inherently cannot overlap.

>I asked if you could alter it, would you need stronger emotions. You say it depends on the alteration and what is being changed. We don't see that.
Kurapika alters chain jail with strong hatred and conviction. Kite makes crazy slots stronger with annoyance. Chrollo is making Skill Hunter stronger through his hate for Hisoka.

>You said that it hasn't happened. which means it is something that is not explained.
??? ok, not everything is explained

>>290823464
Kurapika was a child at the time, he was what? 16 max? It makes sense that he would come up with something to bridge the sheer gap between him and the Spiders (who have at least a decade of experience with Nen). The issue is that is kinda retarded now that Pika is a super genius in matter not related to Spiders. Dude is way to competent for someone who is like 20 max now. At first it was embarrassing that the great and powerful Phantom Trope got btfo'd by an actually child, but that child is a one in 100 million talent.

>>290845565
>Probably not; you can lose an ability, though
Okay, not explained. Thank you for confirming that for me.
>In Kurapika's case, Judgement Chain kills him if he doesn't use Chain Jail on a Troupe Member. You are confusing vows with restrictions. Kurapika made a literal vow.
Yes and I'm asking how the fuck that works and what are the upper limits and rules of this.
>these are all silly questions. Kurapika will straight die in alot of these answers. Judgement chain is serious
You're dismissing it as silly because you don't have an argument.
>I'm having a hard time imagining this. Kurapika's chain jail has a restriction that, if violated, kills him because of a vow. Give an example of what you think conflicting restrictions would be
Okay, so not explained. Thank you for clarifying that for me. The fact that you have to imagine it and not give an example is proving my point.
>No.
Okay so then what does it mean?
>Yes, Killua literally explains this. Though there is a good argument to be made that it only gives Gon a trained body, not better Nen Skills
And why does it do that?
>This is semi-true. But alot of your understanding will be helped once you understand the difference between vow (or conditions) and restrictions.

No, it's because it's not explained at all. That's the problem. Togashi only reveals what's convenient for the plot to happen.

it makes perfect sense within the story. all your arguments stem from getting called gay by someone using a hxh image. just like all other schizo anti-fans with a retarded agenda posting on /a/

>>290830621
>He literally explained every single ability he was going to use to Hisoka. Letting other nen users know your ability is high risk.
Yeah, because he knew he was going to win the "fight" no matter what. People explain what their nen does when they're absolutely confident of victory all the time in HxH. Hisoka was dead the moment he agreed to Chrollo's terms

>>290819435
God I love the way Hisoka's face and hair were drawn in these chapters

>>290839177
>but, out of nowhere, he says "I don't care what happens, I just want all the nen I'll ever have". There was no set up to that contract or vow.
His delusions of Kite being somehow alive were completely shattered and Pitou was going to kill him. He realized he was facing very real, potentially fatal consequences for the first time in the series with nobody to bail him out and it made him snap.

>>290846486
>Okay, not explained. Thank you for confirming that for me.
-_-; its litterally explained; you probably can't remove a restriction, but you can lose an ability (which removes the restriction). You are being obtuse, you don't understand evidence.

>Yes and I'm asking how the fuck that works and what are the upper limits and rules of this.
I literally fucking explained how it works. Kurapika made chain jail. Then he strengthened it by making a vow that would kill him if he ever used it on someone besides a troupe member. What is not explained? What do you mean "upper limits." It's just a rule, and if he

>You're dismissing it as silly because you don't have an argument.
No, it's silly because it's silly. You are making an argument of absurdity. Another intellectually dishonest tactic.

>Okay, so not explained. Thank you for clarifying that for me. The fact that you have to imagine it and not give an example is proving my point.
Wtf? Give me an example of a conflicting restriction. You are dodging the question.

>Okay so then what does it mean?
??? why can't you read. Killua explains it. You are being obtuse again.

>And why does it do that?
??? what do you mean why does it do that? Its because thats what Gon wanted it to do?

>>290845899
>Mmm I feel like my Paku example is pretty clear. You can just add more conditions and restrictions to your ability. I don't understand the "how" problem. Like it's almost bullshit Paku and Renko talk about litterally what you are wondering about, and you still don't understand
How did Chrollo do it? All we know is that he said he has some new restrictions but he never says what they are. Togashi can just make someone as strong as he wants out of nowhere so the plot can happen.
>>290846790

>>290846790
>-_-; its litterally explained; you probably can't remove a restriction, but you can lose an ability (which removes the restriction). You are being obtuse, you don't understand evidence.
"Probably" isn't evidence. Give examples from the manga.
>I literally fucking explained how it works. Kurapika made chain jail
No, what you didn't explain was: How do you enforce it(example, the chains that only work on phantom troupe members, do they work on ex members, if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work?)
>No, it's silly because it's silly. You are making an argument of absurdity. Another intellectually dishonest tactic.
No that's you dismissing my argument as silly. Try actually responding to it next time.
>Wtf? Give me an example of a conflicting restriction. You are dodging the question.
Give me an example of if you can have one or not.
>??? why can't you read. Killua explains it. You are being obtuse again.
They don't explain *why* though.

>>290846808
>How did Chrollo do it? All we know is that he said he has some new restrictions but he never says what they are.
How he did it and his restrictions are two different things. You would still be asking "how" he did it, even if you knew what his restrictions were. The reason why is because you don't want to accept people can make their abilities stronger even though Paku proves that you can

>>290843954
These questions are not relevant to the story being told. Fictional stories do not require handbooks on how the magic powers in them work.

>>290846808
You're right, it's shit writing. Togashi should go into excruciating detail on how every single character develops their Hatsu. There should be a backstory explaining in thorough detail how Morel learned Deep Purple, it's an asspull that he knows how to use such a versatile ability with no explanation.

>>290846897
>"Probably" isn't evidence. Give examples from the manga.
The evidence is that it hasn't happened outside of Nanika granting a wish.

>No, what you didn't explain was How do you enforce it
Yes I did anon. Judgment Chain literally kills Kurapika if he violates the vow.
>example, the chains that only work on phantom troupe members, do they work on ex members, if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work?
In almost all of these examples, Kurapika dies if he misuses his ability. He explains it's part of the risk.

>No that's you dismissing my argument as silly. Try actually responding to it next time.
you don't understand you cannot address a silly question
>Give me an example of if you can have one or not.
you need to give me an example of what you are talking about anon. I don't know what "can you make a restriction that cancels out another restriction" means. It's a nonsensical statement.

>They don't explain *why* though.
Yes they do; it's because Gon made a horrible contract to give up his future.

>>290846919
The irony of you saying this when that's exactly what the worldbuilding of HXH is like. Everything I'm asking are plot relevant questions. We should know how these powers work.

>>290846926
Yeah. How people develop their abilities in this show tends to be pretty important especially when you're world building a Shonen.

>>290847036
>The evidence is that it hasn't happened outside of Nanika granting a wish.
Lack of something happening isn't evidence. Togashi violates the rules when it's convenient for the plot to happen.

Kills sister can grant any wish with not negatives to her. She has a restriction, but negates that restriction for Kill. So she can just decide to negate it?
So why is the restriction there in the first place if it can be negated at will?
So with this ability that we know nothing about the main characters life was saved. Is that good story telling?
If it wasn't for Nanako and he mystery power, he would have died without living his dream. Again is that good story telling? Doesn't matter if he is a main character or the main. He survived and we don't have all of the details behind it. Is it good story telling?
So the details of how a character has a restriction that can be deactivated at will that saved a main characters life will be explained at some point. Excuse me if I don't hold my breath.
>In almost all of these examples, Kurapika dies if he misuses his ability. He explains it's part of the risk.
It does not explain that any of the scenarios I described apply.
>you don't understand you cannot address a silly question
You're dismissing it as silly because you don't have an argument.
>you need to give me an example of what you are talking about anon. I don't know what "can you make a restriction that cancels out another restriction" means. It's a nonsensical statement.
Really? Because you seemed to understand it before. A restriction that removes another restriction or cancels out the rules of a restriction that's already in place.

Huntertards getting BTFO in this thread holy

>>290822888
Let's go down the sequence of events. Chro had a limitation that he needed to hold the book now he does not. How did he do that, why now, what are the restrictions, what narrative sense does it make to take away a hindrance without showing another hindrance to replace it?

>>290847799
proof?

>>290846519
Kek this, you just know this guy read/watched hxh after being triggered by hunterchads and was scrupulously looking for logical holes the whole time.

>Chrololo VS Hisoka exposed the HXH fanbase as a bunch of battleshitters
lol

>>290846519
Fuck, you got me

>>290848025
I mean, it would be nice if you could refute any of my arguments but I know you won't.

>>290848095
You've been given answers the entire thread, nothing will satisfy you because you're dishonest and only want to get back at the meanie hunterchads

>>290848159
The entire thread has been using headcanon or just avoiding the questions.

>>290847998
> Chro had a limitation that he needed to hold the book now he does not. How did he do that,
He upgraded skill hunter by making the bookmark
why now,
> because his plan to beat Hisoka with a 0% margin of error required he have both hands
> what are the restrictions,
We don’t know exactly. We can say upgrading skill hunter requires succeeding in a national heist, so there is one restriction. Chrollo also revealed all the abilities he would use with the bookmark, which might be another restriction. It could be both. All we know is that there are some restrictions, which Chrollo finds annoying.
> what narrative sense does it make to take away a hindrance without showing another hindrance to replace it?
Because in Shonen characters are constantly getting stronger. It also demonstrates how clever Chrollo is and sets up tension for Hisoka during the battle now that we know the odds are against him. Remember much of the analysis of the Silva Zeno battle focused on taking advantage of the one handed Chrollo. Now that two hands are an option, we know Hisoka is in major trouble the whole fight, cultivating in his death. Regardless we may have already seen one hindrance that came with the upgrade and another one may have happened while Hisoka was chasing Chrollo.

>>290848189
You don't know how stories work

>>290848229
>he upgraded his skill

cool, so totally arbitrary development that just happens because "reasons"

>>290848229
>we don't know exactly
Thanks. That was my entire problem and you've done nothing to address that. Is it good storytelling that he just randomly gets rid of his restrictions and replaces then with one's that are unexplained?

The problem is that this breaks the fighting system and all tension when characters can just regularly break rules with zero consequences.

>>290828938
no way you capped your own post lmao
end your life

>>290848235
More like Togashi is a hack that's only revealing things when it's convenient for him.

>>290848263
>get an ability that requires 2 hands to use
>has a fight against Hisoka where he has all the time to prepare and adjust his skillset
>decides to develop his ability through training and adding new restrictions
How is that arbitrary?

>>290848482
What are the restrictions? Thats the problem. Togashi just took them away and added one's that are unexplained and he'll only reveal them when it's con to the plot.

>>290848263
It happened because he needed it to beat Hisoka. What do you mean by arbitrary here? It’s not random, we’ve seen that abilities can evolve over time. It’s not up to chance because Chrollo meant for it to occur. And why throw scare quotes around reasons? We know the reason, Chrollo needed to beat Hisoka with both hands. I don’t really know what your comment means, what would a non-arbitrary evolution of his ability look like?
>>290848350
Well I only just entered the thread so…
> Is it good storytelling that he just randomly gets rid of his restrictions and replaces then with one's that are unexplained?
I didn’t bat an eye when I first read it. We knew abilities could evolve and change over time and Chrollo had been off screen for a year. I don’t see how the fighting system is fundamentally broken. We’re watching Chrollo go through the process again of upgrading his book now that he’s taken on major role in the new arc instead of appear as an atagonist for Hisoka. Watching Chrollo explain his plan to the Troupe, go through with the heist, and then fight Hisoka would have absolutely killed the shock factor and excitement for jumping right into it.
>>290848382
That’s how tension in a story is built.

>>290847174
Did you miss the part where Kurapika explains how he developed his chains? Or when Gon and Killua develop their hatsu on Greed Island? Everything's already been explained to you.

>>290848350
New anon here but
>Is it good storytelling that he just randomly gets rid of his restrictions and replaces then with one's that are unexplained?
I don't think it is random. He clearly did it as prep for the Hisoka fight that was built up to for a while, and we knew Chrollo was preparing for it. Bookmark acquisition partially explained it, and while we didn't get hard confirmation of what he gave up in exchange the fact that Chrollo demonstrated then fully explained abilities in the fight rather than doing it in thought bubbles just for the readers is pretty telling.

>>290843954
>example, the chains that only work on phantom troupe members, do they work on ex members, if they change the name of the troupe willit still work, if someone lies and says they are a member of the troupe can he use the chains without it killing him, if someone is wrapped in the chain and they say "I renounce my membership of the troupe"Can willit still work
We don't know the answers to a lot of these questions because they haven't come up in the story yet. It's not realistic to expect every single corner case and situation to be addressed when an ability relies on something as abstract as membership in a group. You're unhappy with HxH not doing it, but I don't think any manga or work of fiction does.

>>290848542
It sounds like you want to have 100% complete knowledge as a reader at all points in the story, and that's just not what HxH is. It's aimed more at an audience that enjoys mystery and suspense.

>>290848350
I’m >>290848588, I should clarify
> Watching Chrollo explain his plan to the Troupe, go through with the heist, and then fight Hisoka would have absolutely killed the shock factor and excitement for jumping right into it.
Was referring to the first Chrollo/Hisoka fight if that wasn’t clear.

>>290848542
He's already given hints, he'll reveal them when it makes sense narratively to reveal them

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>>290848235
I kind of agree of with this outlook, Death Note is a good example where there a ton of rules and logic behind the notebook but you can kind of skip over all that stuff and not have problems following the story
Maybe Togashi was winking at the audience by bringing up death note

>>290829573
Besides what others are saying think life force wise.
Netereo hit Mereum with his most powerful attack, I would assume he did something you say knowing it was his last attack, but how much of a boost are you gonna get if you don’t have any years left?

>>290848859
it's just a reference to the fact that shizuku is dumb as fuck

>>290842565
I believe it.

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I love rape. It is the ultimate signal of love. I need you to be pregnant and I need it to happen now. so romantic

>>290847799
we prefer the term HunterSissies.

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>>290849305

>>290848608
>It's not realistic to expect every single corner case and situation to be addressed when an ability relies on something as abstract as membership in a group.
The specifics of how the fuck an ability works are important, otherwise the author can just justify doing whatever the fuck they want.

>>290849341
Hunterchads are beautiful twinks >>>/gif/31136304 not degenerate crossdressers

>>290849589
>cut

>>290849565
I guess it's a difference of expectations then. People who enjoy HxH are satisfied with the amount of explanation we get and don't agonize over situations like a troupe member renouncing membership after the chain is used on them. If it happens in the story then we'll see the result, otherwise what's the point in getting hung up over such a specific scenario?

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I will repopulate the scarlet demons

Huntsmen are too old to be twinks

Can someone explain the Hisoka hype to me?

>>290849888
Thirdies relate to gay pedos

>>290824200
>It wasn't important to explain that much to Hisoka or whoever might be listening, but he says it later on the ship.
No he doesn't LOL. All he says is "oh boo, i've got some difficult new restrictions :(" but we are NEVER told what they are. this is the real asspull.. (and OMyRubberNen is perfectly valid/explained btw)

>>290849888
Bishie edgelord is generally a popular archetype

>>290819435
>expecting shonen shows made for manchildren and kids to be anything but constant power asspulls

Come on now.

>>290842532
That's fine, at least someone enjoys it.
Doubt you could produce as much.

>>290850188
based retard

>>290822509
>Nen is not that convenient. You have to make meaningful exchanges, not random ones. You have to still make an ability, not just get information out of nowhere.
STRONG NEN issue.

>>290849305
Kill yourself

>>290846926
Chrollo is not just any character

>>290822517
What do you mean without any explanation? We've seen characters create hatsu before. We don't need to see the process every time nigga

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>>290849888
HISOKA is genuinely one of the most unique and interesting characters i've ever seen put to page
>Freaky af
>Farms aura non-stop
>Funny af
Read HxH and u will understand, anon

>>290850350
Again. What makes him so special? You could say that about almost every character in the series.

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>>290849888
pusy tingle

>>290849675
The story needs to explain those things otherwise it's bad writing. Knowing what the fuck powers can and cannot do is essential for worldbuilding a shounen.

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>>290819805
>>can you modify an existing vow or contract?
Yes. Cheetu modifys his ability as far back as chapter 248. Cheetu makes a weapon to harass his opponent on the spot and ultimately kill them in violation of his previous rule of tag where even him touching his opponent counts as them tagging him.
>>can you make 2 different vows/contracts at the same time that either contradict or affect each other?
No. I need no source. It has never happened. Vows stack. Bookmark doesn't contradict the previous rules of Skill Hunter, it allows Chrollo to not have to hold the book in his hand but he still has to have it manifested and he can only bookmark a single ability meaning he is still forced to use one-handed abilities in most cases.
>>if you can alter the contract/vow, do you need stronger emotions or restrictions than the initial one? -can you cancel a vow or contract?
Apparently yes. Chrollo says that he took on more annoying restrictions when he created bookmark in his fight. This is theorized to be the condition for having to steal increasingly rarer items to upgrade skill hunter but not specified. (The chapter 350+ fight)
>>if you can cancel it, what's stopping someone going "I want all the nen I'll ever have" and then only use it for 1 minute and then cancel it before the negative effects happen?
It took Gon months of self loathing and focusing his anger before he could unleash GOn-san on Pitou. It took 10 years for one of Camilla's people to make a curse that didn't even kill her target instantly. Beyond also has been stacking up energy for years with his own curse to some end. People can't just make up powers on the fly and get great returns (see Cheetu).
>>if you make a vow with negative consequences, can you make a different one that negates those consequences? Eg can Gon say "in exchange for living until I lay 35, I'll get nen again?"
No

>>290819805
>>290850519
>>can you make a vow for something that is outside of normal human abilities, ex "in exchange for having glass bones and paper skin, I will grow to 35 feet tall"?
People that self mutilate or use pre-existing physical disabilities can make powers around or incorporating them. If they cripple their own skeleton sure, they can get powers from that.

>>290819435
What's funny about this discussion is that the prior arc broke all the “Nen rules” and even introduced concepts like “post-mortem Nen,” yet the only one who pulled a “asspull” was Hisoka. I don’t even have a favorite in this fight, I just think it’s funny that HXH fans are arguing over this. I thought you guys were better than that.

>>290819435
>Hisoka's ability: Aura has the properties of both rubber and gum - meaning it can stretch, contract, stick to or rebound things.
>Chrollo's ability: Special asspull book that allows him have any power tailored for any situation taken from an unnamed nen user at an unspecified time and place. Tacks on an asspull bookmark that doubles his available powers and removes one of the few meaningful constraints.
>O MY RUBBER NEN gets shit on when it was just Hisoka using his ability as a pump an extremely basic practical application
I will never get HxH haters or lovers. It's so stupid and half-baked, like most shonen.

>>290850394
Japs did an HxH character popularity poll this year - and Hisoka placed 2nd (Kurapika was 1st place). The readership is more hype for this villain than Gon&Killua. And it's a villain with no sympathetic backstory, and no redeeming qualities. He is a rare and majestic creecher, and he's iconic to the series. Most ppl will have a polarizing (love him or hate him) read of the character. HxH is amazing (so i recommend picking it up)

>>290850768
I just don't see anything in him.
>creeps out kids like Orochimaru
>doesn't have any memorable dramatic moments like Orochimaru
Orochimaru “lost” aura points for being sealed away, getting BTFO in the Sannin arc, and being killed twice by both Sasuke and Itachi. But I think he’s a better “joker” character. I just don’t get the Hisoka hype

>>290850768
>creecher
kek I've never seen this misspelling ever

>>290850861
>Orochimaru
Hisoka came before him

This series has had horrible writing for a while now. Its popularity is riding on sunk cost. It’s full of asspulls and deep into shonen slop territory

>>290851038
>T.One Piece fan

>>290850599
What rule was broken? And post mortem nen was introduced in Yorkshin, multiple arcs before the fight between Chrollo and Hisoka

>>290850861
You do realize characters like Orochimaru and Sukuna are based off Hisoka, right?

>>290850861
>I just don't see anything in him
Wellll, if you've actually read hxh already.. then all i can say is that your opinion is an unpopular one. Hisoka is an interesting character for me personally bc I have an interest in psychopathology. it's fun to think about how his freaky mind/madness operates

>>290851068
I’m not a one piece fan. I can just read and evaluate and unfortunately the manga is just as nonsensical as most popular Shonen

>>290850768
The popularity carries over here as well. On MAL he's the 2nd most popular HxH character behind Killua and 38th most poplular overall despite being completely absent for half the show.

>>290850625
Chrollo has to jump through a lot of hoops to steal an ability, then he has to keep the book open or jump through even more hoops to use the bookmark. It's the furthest thing from an "asspull" ability

>>290851500
>or jump through even more hoops to use the bookmark
Ok. What are those hoops?

>>290851895
>>290851500
it's a euphemism for the texture of a man's asshole. on first assertion it feels like there is a ring structure. it's in reference to york new where chrollo said kurapaika stabbed his heart with judgement (chain) which is a late 90's pickup line in the gay community.

>>290851895
We don't truly know yet, we just know he has them and there's no reason to assume he's lying. This isn't the first time a powerful ability's drawbacks wasn't explained right away (Emperor's Time).

>>290830853
>Personally, I think it is explained by Chrollo explaining his ability. When you use Bookmark, you need to explain the ability you are going to use on your opponent.
Chrollo uses Black Voice and then Sun and Moon in Chapter 351, betore either Bookmark or Sun and Moon are explained. So a mandatory explanation has to be ruled out as a condition

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>>290851895
It hasn't been directly stated. But we know that upgrading Skill Hunter requires Chrollo to steal increasingly valuable items.

>>290850313
Neither is Morel

>>290852126
>>290852149
That's the entire problem. These things are never explained. That's bad writing.

>>290832515
To steal an ability, Chrollo must:
>see the ability with his own eyes
>ask questions about it and be answered
>ability’s original owner must touch the cover of his book
>ALL OF THIS HAS TO BE DONE WITHIN AN HOUR
My guess is the new conditions are kind of inverse of the stealing conditions. He has to show off the ability, explain it, and do so within an hour of first using it to affect someone. So he could use it first, and then explain it after if he wanted to. I’d assume he’d at permanently lose that ability or even the bookmark itself if he failed to properly display and discuss the ability within the time limit.

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>>290846926
holy BTFO

>>290852126
>>290852149
>We don't truly know yet
>It hasn't been directly stated
So, basically, it's an asspull until the conditions are revealed on page. But if the revealed conditions are asspull-y, it's a problem, deal? Like the Emperor Time thing is ok-ish (imo), but i could also see how it could be unsatisfactory/asspull-y to some

>>290852245
>>290852336
Look, if you don't think Togashi has earned enough goodwill from his writing to wait for an explaination. Or take the one that seems most logical with the current upgrade condition that's fine. But calling it an asspull or bad writing when the mechanism for upgrading powers has existed for literal years in the text and is used respectfully to the story and narrative is just being childish.

Just say you don't like things or with he was clearer up front. But it's not like Bookmark breaks the system or even broke the story. It made a fight more interesting than if he was limited to one power at a time and all the rules each of those powers require.

>>290852390
No author or mangaka has earned goodwill. Chainsawman went from amazing to shit in like a couple chapters.

>>290852748
at least chainsawman has good porn

>>290852748
>No author or mangaka has earned goodwill
Because?
>Chainsawman went from amazing to shit in like a couple chapters.
Is your argument that HxH has gone to shit as well? Why?

>>290852245
Just because something wasn't explained to you right away isn't "bad writing". Nothing about Chrollo's new ability breaks the rules

>>290852390
>It made the fight more interesting
desu I agree, I was mostly playing devil's advocate
>Just say you don't like things or with he was clearer up front
I understand why togashi wrote-in the bookmark - it was to make the fight more interesting. But he also promised (currently) unknown "conditions" to be revealed. Finding this cheap atm, or unsatisfactory (once revealed), isn't really different than (You) saying "well I like it, it made the fight interesting"
>goodwill
Togashi has my goodwill, but I'm not an npc, I haven't always liked ALL of his writing decisions. Also, ppl are slightly more forgiving of villain power-ups than protagonist power-ups. If Killua got an unexplained ability-upgrade off-screen, it would REALLY feel like an asspull - just worthwhile to point out

>>290851895
>>290852245

You don't seem to understand that they are currently being concealed from the reader as a plot hook. That is what storytelling is.

>>290853024
>Finding this cheap atm, or unsatisfactory (once revealed), isn't really different than (You) saying "well I like it, it made the fight interesting"
You know I agree with this right? I'm only objecting to people saying it's bad writing or an asspull when they just need to say they don't like it.
>but I'm not an npc
Nor am I stating that people need to slurp up everything he's written. I'm saying in this specific case he has enough goodwill to justify not explicitly giving us the conditions for Bookmark. The ultimate consequence of Bookmark is minor to the plot and does not exist without merit from the writing. If that's enough for some people to lambast Togashi then they honestly are just looking for any excuse to shit on the story.

Same as the people that complained that skill hunter is just Togashi letting Chrollo do whatever he wants when he wants. He's never given bullshit powers, in York Shin he primarily uses Neon's ability and we see him use one teleportation power that existed before the arc. His arena fight goes without saying, it was a masterfully crafted ruse using familiar and new abilities in novel ways. Currently he's just rocking a search function which pushes him closer to Hisoka.

>>290852889
No, my argument is that any work or author can go to shit at any moment, and small questionably written moments are usually a sign it can happen

>>290853265
>The ultimate consequence of Bookmark is minor to the plot
Technically, it's pretty consequential to the plot. Since it allows Chrollo to defeat Hisoka, which has massive ongoing plot-implications. But for me personally, even if Chrollo died next chapter without revealing the mystery-conditions to the bookmark, it weirdly wouldn't even bother me that much. I guess I just think it's funny that O my rubber nen gets called an asspull (when there's no problems with it). But this gets overlooked, when it's (potentially) a problem. The fact that Chrollo is searching for a new ability in order to defeat Hisoka, implies that he can't just open the book and "cast die" on him - which goes a long way to show us not to view the book as a "bullshit-device"

>>290851500
Except he has jumped through an unknown number of hoops off panel to secure an unknown number of abilities. You could pull anything from the ether, or your asshole.

>>290841669
>Otherwise it's too uncanny a coincidence
Chrollo's long explanation of his battle plan has a meta reason to be, Togashi wanted to subvert the trope of the antagonist that explains his plan and ends up losing.
But yeah, having to demostrate his ability first and then explaining it seems like a non issue, with a powerful Hatsu he could one shot an opponent without having to explain at all. I think his restriction is about having to tell the truth, the Bookmark is named "Double Faced" after all.
>>290852252
>I’d assume he’d at permanently lose that ability or even the bookmark itself if he failed to properly display and discuss the ability within the time limit.
This makes sense too.

>>290833620
Emperor Time's restrictions seem to be way, way harsher than whatever Chrollo's conditions are. That would be the real problem for me, since they're both are specialists after all.

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>>290819435

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>>290819435
Kurapika will one day die when he uses Judgment Chain on someone he thinks is a Spider but isn't. The plot twist will be that it IS a Spider but they fooled Kurapika into thinking he violated his Nen vow and that's enough to make it happen.

Then Kurapika's postmortem Nen somehow hears this and resurrects Kurapika.

We need more schizo Nen users who value something completely absurd like their pube hairs so much that Nen vows sacrificing or affecting them in a negative way give them tons of power.

>>290853576
It can but when a work has gone on for several decades, no one really cares if the author goes senile and starts writing loopy shit. It's pretty much expected.
It's different when a guy in their prime absolutely shits the bed, it makes you wonder if everything else was a fluke or a scam.

>>290847306
>Lack of something happening isn't evidence.
Yes it is, anon. It's literally evidence. You are confusing proof with evidence again. I don't really care if it's "good storytelling." That's your subjective opinion.

>It does not explain that any of the scenarios I described apply.
Yes, it does, anon. I'm telling you, you can't fool Judgement chain with your silly scenarios. Its a risk Kurapika talks about.

>You're dismissing it as silly because you don't have an argumen
No. You are committing a classic logical fallacy. reductio ad absurdum.

>Really? Because you seemed to understand it before.
No. I've asked you 3 times for an example

>A restriction that removes another restriction or cancels out the rules of a restriction that's already in place.
Well, Double Face does this. The bookmark allows Chrollo to bypass the 1 Arm Restriction with more restrictions.

>>290854847
What enforces whether or not Kurapika does from his chain or not? What enforces these restrictions?

After reading this thread, I now understand why Togashi had the narrator state such obvious things in the Chimera Ant arc. The average reader is mentally retarded and incapable of connecting inferred information with known information.

>>290855657
It’s because they are thirdies with IQ scores averaging in the low 70s to mid 80s. Even here in the west most normalfags barely break the mid 90s contrary to what you might believe.Hallmark of below average intelligence is being unable to grasp hypothetical concepts or thought experiments, as well as being unable to predict patterns and strategize/orchestrate long term plans of action. There is a reason there are no nonWhite philosophers of note save the orient. Following a story with multiple congruent plotlines and characters is biologically impossible for them. The succession war was the great filter for shitskins. They can’t even perceive the pages, they only see the reflection of their disgusting figure in the black screen of their boosted android. Instead they try to cling to what they might understand: fightfaggery. They still fail of course.

>>290853709
>Technically, it's pretty consequential to the plot
I'll be the first to say that I think Chrollo could kill Hisoka even without it. I think it was pointed out that Hisoka's original fortune did in fact cut off implying he met his end within the 4 week window of Neon's predictions so Chrollo would win regardless. I'm saying it's of minor consequence because the death didn't stick and the ability isn't one Chrollo is potentially going to need to use constantly.
>But this gets overlooked, when it's (potentially) a problem.
It's really not. Anymore than Killua having trained offscreen to develop Whirlwind and Godspeed. It's just logical extensions of the initial concept (summon a book, create electric aura) and plays into the skills of the characterer (leveraging stolen powers expertly, being an assassin).

But like I said, if someone doesn't like it that's fine. But it really isn't that big a deal nor some giant ripple within the logic or rules of the series.

>The fact that Chrollo is searching for a new ability in order to defeat Hisoka, implies that he can't just open the book and "cast die" on him
That was pretty much set in stone when Chrollo admitted to Hisoka that he was using the most abilities ever just to kill him in the arena. Even creating bookmark was a testament to how much prep work Chrollo had to put in and it ultimately didn't stick. Unlike Bungee gum which has the properties of etc, etc, etc.

>>290853576
Ok, Bookmark wasn't a sign of anything though because the story hasn't dipped in quality. It's arguably entered it's bet written arc to date or at least a close contender for 2nd.

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>>290854892
>What enforces whether or not Kurapika does from his chain or not? What enforces these restrictions?
Unironically nen is shown to have an objective force operating behind it. This is why even when character literally cannot perceive the things the ability has been set to do. This is why Chrollo could talk to Hisoka freely when Hisoka stated he was not a member of the troupe, even though Kurapika isn't even present for this exchange. And why abilities like Missileman can hit an opponent who at the time was completely imperceptible. Or how Shizuku's vacuum doesn't suck up anything she considers alive so she didn't suck up that one mafia goon she didn't even know survived when she hoovered up a room full of corpses.

This gets meme'd as a "nen God" but it's a real thing in the story. Make an ability and give it rules, it will just know if the rule is violated or not.

Not a single person has mentioned that izunavi stated to kurapika that nen cannot do the ‘impossible’ and certain things are beyond capability, even with vows and restrictions/limitations. Vows that are borderline meaningless will not grant a nen user any significant increase in power, and actually only harm them in the long run. Wing warned against this very thing. Nen shitters likely try to rush power with vows and end up getting themselves killed because they are iqlets. As with kastro if you try to stack vows your brain will likely fry trying to remember them all and you’ll be relying on crutches instead of simply training to get stronger.

>>290850599
Post-mortem nen is the Haki of HxH.

>>290836863
Its not dumb here either because Chrollo is intentionally messing with Hisoka. Its an ironic echo of Hisoka's fight with Kastro; Chrollo explains all this shit all at once to Hisoka, overwhelming him with information, but leaves out key details, or provides them in a way that provokes Hisoka into making assumptions about how all of Chrollos abilities interact with each other.

Everyone in here knows this is bait, right?

>>290854262
Emperor Time is way stronger though.

>>290819435

Authors don't care about sustaining continuity they introduce in their own works. The likes of Bleach is an immensely confusing and satisficing series due to the fact that Kubo just cared about trolling his audience with retcons and vague terms he would refuse to explain.

Even back in York New, i could see the mask of coherency slipping plain as daylight whenever it felt best for Togashi's interests. Nen exists solely for the purpose of narrative convenience, never to define or restrict a character after that arc.

>reading Asspull x Asspull

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>>290856750
>Nen exists solely for the purpose of narrative convenience, never to define or restrict a character after that arc.
Pitou's Doctor Blythe was originally used to convey the callousness and sheer inhumanity of the Royal Guards as it was used for corpse manipulation and mass experimentations on humans. Later in the arc it's the only thing that can save the woman that the King subconsciously cares about, whom Pitou cares about more than her own life.
The arc itself wouldn't have played out like it did if Doctor Blythe didn't restrict Pitou in 3 key moments, and in spite of the fact that it being unable to revive people directly led to Pitou's demise in her final moments she comforts Gon before trying to kill him.

Also, at the current point of the manga we're seeing a major antagonist learn about his ability in real time and try to figure out how to overcome the limitations of it.

>>290856750
>Nen exists solely for the purpose of narrative convenience, never to define or restrict a character after that arc.
Like how Killua being able to turn his aura into electric aura wasn't seen by multiple characters as a sign of the abuse and trauma he survived across his life? Or how Welfin's Missileman had a hidden weakness that reflected how his aversion to honesty showed he just wanted to be honest himself? Emperor Time doesn't exist because Kurapika desired to be a one man army and his specialist nature allowed him to smooth over the issues with him normally being a conjurer. Gonsan wasn't the culmination of Gon's potential, anger, and self loathing during his most childish outburts and required his friend to go on a journey just to pull him back from the brink of death. Their friendship was also scarred. Chrollo's issues with understanding people is definitely not reflected with how skillhunter lets him delve into that topic. He didn't make a whole speech about how he learns about someone's quirks and personal rules through his ability.

>>290819435
togashi did a meh job at disguising chrollo's advantages as disadvantages.
>"actually, i have to do all of this and that"
>proceeds to showcase how deep his nen has become, with still no why as to where it all came from
the problem with magic is that its qualitative aspects cannot really be systematized in any truly objective manner. this is why roughly the same critique can be extended to basic nen abilities. still a fair bit disappointing to see chrollo's power-up being left with no explanation that would alleviate some of the deus ex.

>>290821206
yup, this. he can't help it, working with a magical "system" is literally working with a whole universe with its own "(meta)physics". there are bound to be loose ends and contradictions.

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>>290856103
the fortunes don't work that way. linking this screenshot bc im too lazy to explain it myself

>>290852245
We know Skill Hunter's original conditions. We know Chrollo is looking for a specific ability to BTFO Hisoka forever. We know he needs to steal Kakin's treasures to power the upgrade. We know pretty much 80% of everything we need to, the remaining 20% is just what exactly the power is.

>>290819805
>can you modify an existing vow or contract?
Yes
>can you make 2 different vows/contracts at the same time that either contradict or affect each other?
Yes
>if you can alter the contract/vow, do you need stronger emotions or restrictions than the initial one? -can you cancel a vow or contract?
You need talent and time. It took kurapika months to make his ability. Ants are an exception and the reason as to why they didn't abuse this is a plot hole
>if you can cancel it, what's stopping someone going "I want all the nen I'll ever have" and then only use it for 1 minute and then cancel it before the negative effects happen?
You would need an exorcist with godly powers to stop that kind of nen ability on a whim as shown in the story
>if you make a vow with negative consequences, can you make a different one that negates those consequences? Eg can Gon say "in exchange for living until I lay 35, I'll get nen again?"
One - gon arleady got his nen back. Two - without nen he can't make vows anymore because you make vows with your nen. ignoring that - yes.
>can you make a vow for something that is outside of normal human abilities, ex "in exchange for having glass bones and paper skin, I will grow to 35 feet tall"?
That would be transmutation. Transmutation is shown to be extremely difficult in the story, but with that restriction you could do it actively. To make it a passive ability you would need another restriction.

>>290856672
He would have to do all that if nothing was explained though?

>>290860249
>Ants are an exception and the reason as to why they didn't abuse this is a plot hole
The ants can't abuse this because they were all getting nen abilities thanks to Pouf's cocoon ability and none of them save Cheetu had the actutal potential and circumstances to alter their ability on the spot. They would have more than likely needed to go back into another cocoon.

Just look at the upgrade to Palm. Her Wink Blue got altered and she also gained another ability more suited to her being an enhancer with anger issues.

>One - gon arleady got his nen back.
As of the last time we see him his nen was still not back. Everyone has aura normally.

>That would be transmutation.
Altering matter and size is conjuration. We've had multiple conjurers this arc alone with shapeshifting abilities.

>>290850625
How conveinent that Hisoka didn't bled out despite large open wounds...because while rubber nen can re-start his heart, that wouldn't matter if he lost too much blood or his brain got damaged.

>>290821282
you're right but it's been a popular theory for a while that Chrollo explaining every ability he's about to use in detail to his opponent is the restriction for being able to use the bookmark, kind of like Genthru's restriction for one of his abilities as the bomber. It would make sense but if we ever see Chrollo using the bookmark again in maybe 2 years time we'll know.

Bump

Sorry for being late.

Nen is a religion of yourself, it's why breaking your own rules or getting away with it like Gon did takes your nen away, you are betraying yourself. So basically you can't just make arbitrary rules to make your ability stronger, you need to make rules you truly believe need dedication or are a risk to yourself.

It's why obsession makes the nen stronger, it's why obsession ends with nen after death or curses, the users may be gone, but his religion remains.