Why is it that non-Japanese people are so angry at the "chosen one, chosen bloodline" hero archetype? I don't mean to start a flamewar but I've noticed that a lot of Westerners despise shows where the protagonist has their powers or skills or whatever from being part of a bloodline. Is this a deep cultural difference?
your limited experience is not an accurate representation of realitythere are also many westerners who like the trope
>>291844126its not westerners it just commies, they whine about King Arthur being the son of King Uther Pendragon. they want to be special but their blood is mud so their heroes also have to be nobodies otherwise their small little minds cant selfinsert
>>291844126Because they love watching the same shounenslop over and over again which all regurgitates the same themes and instead of moving on to better things they complain about it while continuing to consume it
>>291844126Leftism
>>291844252I'm a leftist though and have no issue with the archetype
>>291844126Are you sure you haven't just noticed people being annoyed by stories that start off with an underdog protagonist apparently overcoming obstacles through hard work and grit but later go "just kidding, the protagonist was actually born special"?
>>291844291midoriya is special because he's querkless.naruto was always clearly the son of the 4th, everyone just hated him and he was a tard that took hard work and grit to actually reach his potential, something all the other kids were already doing before the chunnin examone piece i dont readbleach is a monster of the week but in arc format with ichigo retconned into also being whatever that arcs bad guys are, and never an underdog but stranger in a strange land trope im sure theres other examples
>>291844126Not just that, but japanese people seem to not mind when a MC is powerful for no reason. In western narratives, there is always an insistence that the power is earned.
>>291844126https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethichttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism
>>291844640But WHY?
>>291844640There are plenty of Western stories where power is either innate, accidental or granted, though. Old myths are largely about people who are just born special, but plenty of modern stories also have that. Superman's worthy of his power but his power in itself is due to his birth, plenty of fantasy stories have magic as something you're either born with or aren't, same goes for Force in Star Wars, and so on.
>>291844126because early episodes of those anime were about talentless loser hardworkmaxxing
>>291844126It's more a reaction to it being executed poorly like >>291844291 said. No one takes issue with something like Gon and Killua being extremely talented from the start.
>>291844777None of them were talentless they were just minmaxxed rather than well-rounded, and had an extremely easy time outperforming everyone that wasn't among the best of the best
>>291844126Its because its lazy and very often introduced late in the series as opposed to being there from start, making it a retcon. Your story revolves around your main character and their struggles, so when you fundamentally alter their nature like that you risk damaging the story or invalidating much of what's come before. > I started from nothing, but with hard work and guts anyone can overcome the challenges in their way!> this moral resonates with the audience and its the recurring theme of like the first 10 major battles/villains that the story is known for and which made it popular and beloved> final arc of the story: "Actually you were always the descendant of the god of all of creation and a time-travelling super AI from the end of the universe and becoming the most powerful being in all of time and space was your inevitable destiny due to your innate special powers that let you do things that no mortal could ever hope to match no matter how hard they work. Here's a very flashy power-up to go and body the big bad with, don't think about what this means for the entire first half of the manga just go have fun banging action figures together and making explosions sounds. "
>>291844911>making it a retconbig whoop. If you were half as allergic to retroactive continuity as you people pretend, you wouldn't keep exclusively reading serialised stories
>>291844927you're making things up to be mad about again, sis
>>291844911>It's common>RetconDo you know what a retcon is, midwit? Clearly not. If it's common then it being planned is to be expected. If you wanna claim otherwise you better construct a cohesive argument that proves that it wasn't. Which you can't. Stop using words the meaning of which you don't understand. Retarded Walmart cashier.
>>291844587NTA, but Naruto himself has like 30 other things stacked right on top of him aside for just being 4th's son. And the one character that gets introduced as purely hard work trope literally accomplishes NOTHING while the talented dudes born into wealthy families that he chases either succeed at life or at least get a spotlight before they go out.Bleach was good when Ichigo WAS ,,stranger in a strange land", but that pretty much ended after SS. Since then it was ,,let's chase another asspull" to get him stronger, but not strong enough to actually win any meaningful fight without going all out with his new asspull. Ending up with another Naruto scenario.Honestly, even fucking ,,cheat skill" isekai are more modest when it comes to hard work vs chosen one trope when you put them up against the shonen that are supposedly all about the former.
>>291845119>He thinks Kishimoto planned his manga's story
>>291845119did you have a stroke while typing this bilge?
>>291844640but no one had any problem with Naruto or Luffy just getting those powers for no reason, Luffy ate the fruit, that's the plot. the people are complaining about the reason they are given at the end of their story. you're not addressing the issue
>>291845119Do YOU know what a retcon is? Because it doesn't sound like you do.
>>291844126Humans have been telling stories about demigods and people with divine bloodlines for centuries. We even elevate the great men of history to such status after the fact. Deep down nobody really believes that the "average Joe is capable of incredible things if he works hard".
>>291845265The problem as other anons have stated is they're mixing up the average Joe story with the demigod ones. We think it was an average Joe but nope, demigod all along. Just be honest from the start.
>>291845243>A retcon (short for retroactive continuity) is a literary and storytelling device where new information in a later work alters, contradicts, or recontextualizes established facts from earlier in a fictional series or universe.The burden of proof is on you, midwit. If something can be interpreted to mean "chosen one", then given the fact that the trope is a common industry trope dictates that it's expected to happen. You being dissatisfied with it doesn't make it a retcon.>>291845155Burden of proof it on you, midwit. You people don't seem to understand how this whole "I accuse something of X, listen to me" works.
>>291845308>We think it was an average Joe>I am clinically retarded, illiterate, read poor translations, am an EOP, have no media literacy, this is on the authorKEKAZOOOOOOZLE
>>291844640>In western narratives, there is always an insistence that the power is earned.The only thing there always is in western narratives is deep, multi-layered delusion and superiority complex.Superman (and well over half of capeshitters) was born that way.Everyone in Middle-Earth who has power was born that way. In fact, if you strive to gain more power than you deserved by virtue of birth, that makes you evil. Nearly all of LotR rip-offs inherited the idea and it still permeates Western fantasy. DnD and other games that borrowed from it diluted the idea by introducing the concept of level and progression. Yet outside of game conventions Western fantasy remained deeply ashamed of having characters grow in power. Progression fantasy was not a thing until Western neterature started directly aping Eastern stories. Characters who tried to rise above their station generally were written as villains before that.
>>291845432Wow, you literally posted the definition of a retcon, yet continue to argue from a position that requires either ignorance or misunderstanding of that definition. Common industry tropes have nothing to do with it, anon. It's 100% about things established in a story being contradicted by something introduced later. More serious that that by itself is the original themes of a story being messed up by things introduced later.
>>291844126why are you projecting your own views as Japanese
>>291845449omg, so true, my isekai webnovel litrpg drivel is actually a masterpiece that invented the concept of self-improvement
>>291845441>kid who wants to be the village leader with a demon sealed inside him>gomu gomu luffy who has fruit powers>Everyone can see they are reincarnations of demigods and freedom spirit bro, you are media illiterate if you don't. millions of people are just wrong for complaining, they're all media illiterate they should see it coming - happened in chapter 1000 but I knew it will happen because it was foreshadowed 10 years ago
>>291845481The issue is that you're a midwit and you interpret things in a way that allegedly contradicts the chosen one storyline, when it fact it doesn't. In 99999 out of 100000 cases it was foreshadowed. You being too mentally challenged to accept it because you're a genetic dead end loser who thinks "normal people should be Le able to accomplish something" when that never was part of the story to begin with is your and your fellow retard MURIKAN's problem. Not the story's. You shouldn't be allowed to post your diarrhea on the Internet, subhuman trash.
I don't like it because it's just a way to canonize all the bullshit and plot armor, which are thing the reader has to accept will exist before he reads the first bubble of the manga or media equivalent.It's just a needless break of writer-reader trust.
>>291845543go play in the kid pool, adults are talking
you can do a so-called chosen One right when you simply frame it as some sort of burden but it is bigger than the hero himself so the hero has to do it, rather than a dream to attain like with Goku, legend of Zelda with link and bleach with Ichigo, they don't come off as douchebags because they didn't choose to be the children one it wasn't their dream so it was more of a call of duty so it is more admirable for them while with Naruto and Luffy from One Piece, they come off as douchebags because they preach hard work while being the chosen one LARPing as a Joe Yabuki
>>291844126Because japs think writing a power fantasy and an underdog story at the same time somehow isn't contradictory at all
>>291844126>Is this a deep cultural difference?No, this is a fairly entrenched part of White culture as well. It's just modern liberal "everyone is an identical blank slate" shit that hates the idea of some people being of better stock than others.
>>291844291luffy was the son of the most wanted man in the world, grandson of a legendary marine hero, brothers with the pirate king's son, and never struggled in a fight until chapter like, 150 or somethingdeku is a super rare quirkless person which the series wants you to believe is really bad for him, but we never see any sort of discrimination beyond the first couple chapters and then being quirkless if what allows him to gain the superpower that turns him into a god in human clothing after doing moderate exercise for a couple monthsnaruto is naruto, I don't think I need to break this one down
>>291845537>millions of people are just wrong for complaining, they're all media illiterateCorrect. Hardworkfags tend to be media illiterate and have a double digit IQ. And Naruto being a reincarnation was there since forever. Perhaps you should have taken a look at pre time skip covers and how they deliberately mirrored Lathe Uchiha crest and the Uzumaki's.
>>291845562Adults with intellectual capacity's that pale in comparison to some random 13 year told jeets.
>>291844252This. They think all people are equal. They aren't. And these storyies remind them of it. The lefties who hate them are like yurischizos who will see yuri everywhere. These people see themselves in shonen protags until they realize damn, that's not me that's the rich trustfund kid I hate so much. These stories break them mentally.
>>291845590sure bro if I write a story and millions of people are wrong about what I meant to say that doesn't mean I did something wrong with the story and I did a poor job at communicating the message, but they're all wrong. kek
>>291845604save the self-portrait for your deviantart
>>291844230>Uther Pendragonwhich means terrifying chief of chiefs
>>291845589>luffy was the son of the most wanted man in the world, grandson of a legendary marine hero, brothers with the pirate king's son, and never struggled in a fight until chapter like, 150 or somethingAll that implies is that he would be strong. Not the reincarnation of the god of laughter, remaker of the world, the one feared by the tenryuubito, the causer of the 800 year lobg dark whatever, etc...
>>291845662A million people huh? Got any evidence for this figure? Or is it perhaps a very loud minority? Even if it wasn't, correct. It's your fault for being a genetic dead end.
>>291845589Luffy didn't start like this, Oda kept adding more and more stuff.
>>291845657The foundation principle of leftist ideology is that humanity as a whole is divided between oppressors and oppressed. A leftist is the kind of person that is the least likely to actually believe that all people are equal.
>>291845308And I'm saying readers don't really much care for the former anyway. The reasoning is pretty simple: if some talentless nobody is able to do so much, they aren't really talentless, are they?
>pre timeskip Naruto had Uchiha and Uzumaki crest mirrors, talk about how Naruto and Sasuke are like Hashirama and Madara, how the cycle of hatred will continue like an endless river as long as they live, parallels of Sasuke and Naruto on Madaras and Hashiramas head >Noooooooooooooooooooo my reincarnation retcon I am going insane
>>291845697One Piece has millions of readers, and all of them were enlightened beings of 200 IQ who saw Luffy's status as Nika Nika godfruit user from chapter 1. You are a genius bro
>>291845731Don't tell them. They didn't get it in 20 years they won't now.
>>291844126>starts the story as a normal guy>100 chapter later>hmm acktually...
>>291844126A character not being the chosen one only makes sense if their goal is to be branch manager of the local gas station. If the goal is pirate king or ninja king they they have to be the most special there is or otherwise they'd never be able to reach said goal. So when the story starts out being transparent about what the character aims for then you should be able to anticipate that they will be special. Cause that's what being at the top is a requirement to for.
>>291845657You will never reproduce though.
>>291845737>pre timeskip Naruto had Uchiha and Uzumaki crest mirrors? explain your genius mister 300 IQ
>>291845604You're the 13-year-old jeet, I assume? That explains a lot of things.
>>291845657Lefties believe in equal outcome, not equal talent/ability. Liberals (who Americans call lefties) don't believe in either. What do rightoids believe? Also neither of them.
>>291845855Rightoids think they are the "chosen one" despite working on McDonalds
>>291845715The foundational principle of leftism is that social inequality is wrong because people are generally equal and innate differences are neglible. This is why my Marxist friend regularly tells me that intelligence has nothing to do with genetics and that anyone can do anything if they're trained to do it.
>>291845828You weren't told that Naruto is from a special clan yet, yet the crest he wears on his shoulder is mirrored against the Uchiha crest in multiple covers. By doing so you're pretty much told that he's from a family equally as important as the Uchiha (the most special of special), cause why else do this. Could simply have left the crests out.
>>291845892Your marxist friend probably believes that a rich black person is more oppressed than a homeless white person just because whites were the best conquerors throughout human history while blacks got the short end of the stick by being slaved by everyone else
>>291845890Jeff Bezos worked at a McDonalds in high school. This is just a temporary point in my life, I promise.
>>291845892>The foundational principle of leftism is that social inequality is wrong because people are generally equal and innate differences are neglibleLeftists don't believe individual talents don't exist. To think that would require no exposure at all to leftist thought.
>>291845980He did when working there was decent and considered a rite of passage for most not as the place neets work a bit to not get kicked from home.
>>291844126Its boring and predictable
>>291845914but the clans are a normal thing in the village and in that setting, they don't foreshadow something special at all for their characters. Sakura has a clan crest too
>>291845578no that's not true you just haven't seen that many animes
>>291846062See, you're media illiterate. It's that simple. It simply can't be helped.
>>291844126Its because the story tries to convince you they are just like everyone else or worse off.
>>291846062>expecting anything relevant from a checklist forced female character in shonen from that eralol
>>291845578It isn't. You being too retarded to get that someone can be an underdog in ways that aren't related to physical prowess doesn't make a story contradictory. You can be powerful, be an outcast and suffer from it emotionally. Who woulda thunked.
>>291845892"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" pretty explicitly acknowledges individual differences, though.
>>291846116so because the uchiha and uzumaki crest are on the cover when Naruto and Sasuke are there it means they are reincarnations of demigods. Is this normal deduction?
>>291844126Dont care naruto and luffy are my favorite bed time heroes, deku is a cock sucking faggot hahahahahaa
>>291846403I do quite enjoy One Piece, although I have significant issues with Odas refusal to actually kill characters, but I've noticed a common criticism is Luffy being of a chosen bloodline, and people taking issue with that,
>>291845971Why do Americans bring up blacks in conversation unprompted?
>>291846416they talked shit about Naruto for decades with the god status reveal... until it happened to them
>>291845586why are you projecting this idea as "white"?
>>291846429Americans expect American issues to matter to everyone.
>>291846403>deku is a cock sucking faggot
>>291845586Chud faggots like yourself also hate this idea though. Particularly when the wealth and average IQ of Jews are brought up.
>>291846561no one says that jews lack IQ. They lack morals
>>291845892Your friend is a brain damaged moron, and so are you for being friends with a marxist.
>>291846623They're better stock than you, so they can do as they like. To suggest anything else would make you spiteful of your genetic superiors.
>>291845704I agree that oda could have held off on the whole god/prophecy thing, but luffy was NEVER an "underdog" or "hard work" protagonist. He's massively stronger than every opponent he faces until he fights crocodile 200~ish chapters into the story, and everyone is constantly comparing him to roger.
>>291844126Probably because shounen stories do a pisspoor job at building their themes and are very inconsistent with how they write their characters.>Jiraiya agrees Naruto is talentless and ungifted and the reason he started training him is because he's an ungifted hard worker who knows how to endure>Sike he's ackshually the child of prophecy and both his parents were prodigies and he's literally the reincarnation of a ninja god who's destined to save the world but he's still an underdog I promiseI feel like 99% of /a/ is filled with unironic retards for not understanding this in 2026.
>they all ended up as a normie just another cogawful message. also whats the deal with this ''im a normie as well'' lol
>>291844126Westerners brains were genuinely broken by the Lee vs Garra and Naruto vs Neji fights. They misread themes that were never there because they were literal children when they watched them and never grew up mentally, so they view all future shounen from that lens.
>>291846861>>>291846760
>>291844126It's just losers on /a/.
>>291846861tbf Naruto is very badly written. Worst anime of all time.
>>291844126It is mostly just illiterate burgers whining about muh bootstraps. There is probably some aspect of satanic panic to it as well, since they don't mind when capeshit does a jesus but freak out when nip stories reflect nip religions.
>>291846980No, >>291846760 and >>291844291 made some pretty good points. You just sound like an immature retard who can't look at things objectively.
>>291847213You sound like a schizophrenic retard. Also see >>291847291
>>291844126because its boring>muh hard work will push me above le Talent havers!>only way they actually do it is an outside source giving them power and in every situation they come across if all they actually had was actually just their hard work then they would be deadDeku would have died in the first like ten episodes if he wasnt GIVEN OFA, Luffy would have been killed by Kaido if he didn't eat the Super Special Pirate Jesus™ fruit, and Naruto is a complete fucking joke that tries to paint his life as a result of hard work and not the entire ninja universe giving him every single macguffin power and bloodline possibole
Someone in this thread is very eager to point to "posts made by other anons that prove without a doubt I am correct" and not so eager to give their own thoughts on the matter.
>>291847213When has capeshit started off with a pro-hard-work message and then later revealed that a superhero was actually just built different and his hard work didn't matter? I'm sure that has happened, due to the sheer volume of superhero fiction, but more commonly superheroes are openly special from the start. That's the central point here, that some anime and manga makes a big deal out of hard work mattering but turn out to be about special innate talents being what really matters.
>>291846760>shinobi talent lies in whether or not one can use and master all the jutsu in the worldNaruto is a sharinganless retard who could barely use like 3 jutsu. Sasuke could potentially master most everything at a glance if he really wanted. Naruto is objectively talentless and ungifted in the context of this conversation. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are not waxing poetic about the human condition, they are talking about a very specific thing.
>>291847520>capeshit started off with a pro-hard-work messageWhen was it ever about that? Most capeshit characters are powerful because they were born as alien gods, were bitten by something that gave them radioactive powers, were the chosen ones etc.
>>291844900shitruto was literally called the worst untalented ninja by kakashiyou're just coping
>>291847599>When was it ever about that?I didn't say it was. I said the literal opposite. Even just replying to my whole first sentence instead of a part of it, if you couldn't be bothered to read all three sentences of the post, would've made that clear. >Most capeshit characters are powerful because they were born as alien gods, were bitten by something that gave them radioactive powers, were the chosen ones etc.Okay. Just what the fuck did you think>more commonly superheroes are openly special from the startwas referring to?
It's an easy way to write to a powerful protagonist; if you don't like it, you're probably just jealous of a cartoon character.
>>291844900Deku was fucking quirkless there was nothing to minmaxx
>>291844230I'm a communist and I dont mind it because I understand it as a trope to make the main character feel special, which is important in stories like this and has been a trope since greek epics.
>>291847520Most heros that were self-made or got their powers by accident were later revealed to be destined for greatness all along or be taping into some mythical force, like Spiderman or Flash.The only difference is that continuity is irrelevant in capeshit, so it doesn't matter.
>>291845731>>291845754You just made this up
>>291845806Messi, Pelé adn Maradona all came from humble and full of hardship homes. They weren't born into millionare families that had a lineage of being pro footballers and yet they still managed to become the best players in footballing history. What is this retarded shit about being transparent fuck you you retard.
>>291847558That's hisnargument you retard
>>291846861Your brain was broken by the criticism
>>291847718>easyThanks for confirming that shounen is low effort slop
>>291847510I'm very eager to point put that you have no argument against those posts
>>291848103They only succeeded because they got bought by the right millionaires when they were young. Footballers are closer to isekai beastkin than they are shounen protagonists.
>>291844126>guys why do westerners dislike this trope from Naruto?>suddenly /a/ loves Naruto and anyone disliking it is a leftist
>>291848521But they were bought because they showed promise, right? That said, I don't have any problem with success requiring the right opportunities even in hard work stories. It's specifically late reveals of special innate powers that annoy me. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain abput how, say Kenichi in History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi is only able to become as strong as he does because he's fortunate enough to meet a group of ansolute top level masters who agree to teach him. That's not the kind of thing that people tend to complain about. Of course, neither are characters who are born special when them bring born special is clear from the start.
>>291844126Western history is rife with dumbasses being given a noteworthy bloodline and still completely fucking up
>>291847605>shitruto was literally called the worst untalented ninja by kakashiThat doesn't make sense since he not only knows about the 9 Tails but also that he's his old sensei's son.
How does /a/ do it? Even with all it's flaws it still manages to maintain a level of quality far above the other media boards.
>>291850851I don't visit the other media boards, but they must be in a really bad state.
>>291850743What about it?
>>291846561>>291846623They're not smarter they're just better at manipulating things in their favor and later stealing discoveries. Look at how all the foundational sciences of western civ were done by white men only for the locusts to monopolize science and academia they didn't create.
>>291853272All the foundational sciences of western civilization were done by muslims anon
>>291844126How was deku ever the underdog when he was handed one of the most OP quirks in the series in the first several chaps lmao
>>291844695>>291844640>There are plenty of Western stories where power is either innate, accidental or granted, though.Western stories also tend to go into detail that having power kind of sucks actually
>>291848103And they just so happened to be the most talented, gifted athletes to ever play the sport. If they had been nothing but hard work theyd have ended in some 5th Argentinan division.>Transparency It's a story, retard. If the story sets out to make it's protagonist king of something then that protagonist can not lack talent. It'd be completely illogical since their position, or rather the position they aim to attain, requires them to be more exceptional than anybody else managed to be. So by telling you what they want to attain, the story also tell you that they will, and by doing so tells you about their exceptional abilities.
>>291847605>A manga about defying expectations and fate has its characters misjudge the protagonist Holy crackers, how could this be. See, that's why manga have images too. Did it ever occur to you that you know more than the characters? You saw Naruto use Kurama to beat Haku. Now ask Kakashi what he thought of Narutos abilities. Oh right, he can't answer accurately cause only YOU were shown. Quite the conundrum.
>>291853515Ssshhh! You're not supposed to point that out
