>>34039241
But therapy is bullshit anon, isn't that a problem?

>>34039252
Part of the bullshit is that the therapist doesn't usually collaborate with the patient directly in the process. Most clinicians do a version of this in the background without letting the patient be part of it.
This sidesteps that by having you do that process on your own or taking it to the clinician to do it with them and learning more about how you work in the process.
PPMs are probably better to take to a psychiatrist first, then to specialized therapists (ex. trauma therapy). You could do the PPM with your therapist and then take it to a psychiatrist if you want to.

You can also do this 100% on your own if you really don't want to see a clinician. Doing the research into the mechanisms of your issues and finding research into effective targeted therapies. But I must advise against that simply because you could miss out on access to treatments, and it's good to have someone to bounce off of incase there are things you are missing.

Therapy doesn't have to be bullshit. We can proactively make it better by coming in with a plan and a basic idea of why we are the way we are. If the therapist is shit then move on until you find one that is willing to take it seriously.

>>34039252
If you read the post thoroughly, you would understand the introspection model doesn’t require intervention from a therapist

>>34039391
Step 3 is to find therapy.

>>34039241
Interested, but skeptical. How did you come up with this? Meaning: what was the philosophy behind this, how did you choose what to put on it, how do you know it's enough for the use case? Is it just an amalgamation of everything you saw therapists using unspoken?

>>34039876
Also: step 2 may not even be possible depending on your psychological profile. Autism + emotional blunting obliterates your narrative ability.

>>34039241
Even if it sounds like a shill, I appreciate you trying to share what helped you to others. Are you really willing to interact with anons off-platform to do this activity?

>>34041518
> Even if it sounds like a shill

It was too friendly. Too like and subscribe. Should have played it cool.

>>34039241
you are retarded and have no idea what you are talking about and this harmful

>>34042955
At least he/she is trying to help people

>>34039241
Cool idea. But with anything self-assessment based you run into the problem of people who are not self aware enough or have their perception of themselves twisted too much to answer correctly. This is particularly the case with AS.

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>>34039876
I experienced multiple major life changing events at once. Lost access to an entire form of dissociation I had for my whole life. Spent 7 months doing serious introspection. Baseline high metacog + ADHD-I forced me to rationalize every ambiguity.
Started with catalyst event reflection on details rationalize all variables integrate
I wanted to know why I had a particular schema, and why it disappeared. I read dozens of research papers related to my predisposition intersecting with my trauma history (ex. maternal separation + ADHD predisposition). Understood my unconscious in a way I never have experienced before.

PPMs are an attempt to turn my introspection process into a framework others could try on their own.
Hopefully people can build upon it too. It could be improved in millions of ways.

>>34041518
Only if they want to. Makes no difference to me. I get more feedback if they do but it's entirely optional.

>>34042955
It has seemingly helped around 20 people irl so I wanted to put it online for anyone to use
I respect all skepticism since I really dunno the full efficacy

>>34043382
We plan to make a version that is module-based in the future. Responses from step 1 would lead to more narrowed down questions for step 2, and then step 3 would be recommended modules based on your predisposition + core symptoms + historical background (developmental stage at time of trauma is also taken into account)

Putting an example of step 2 in from one of my friend's PPM

>>34043617
> PPMs are an attempt to turn my introspection process into a framework others could try on their own.

That's what I meant when I asked how you came up with PPM. What is this framework, core ideas, how does it stand up to scrutiny, how does it compare to other frameworks, why you chose these diagnostics and not others, etc.

I doubt this is the first time someone has had this idea—and there must be people far more experienced than you to have attempted. That said, all can be forgiven if it can be shown to work reliably in practice... But does it? I have no way to tell.

What it looks like to me is a mishmash of everything under the sun. I want to know that it's not.

>>34043617
The thing that would help people is treatments, which this might lead someone to doing, however it establishes an false attitude towards diagnosis and trauama.
Frankly the better version would just be getting someone to write down a life history as comprehensively as possible then ask an LLM to suggest treatments/practices from a variety of schools of thought/perspectives to improve it. Obviously might be hard to get normies to do that but it avoids the bad stuff in this. LLMs are very good at doing research to find treatments for various conditions and suggesting practices (if used properly, most people will just see what the first response is and take it as fact.) I also think the intentional restriction to "therapy" variations is just sort of you not understanding this subject. The majority of treatments are not therapy, the basic "self care" stuff like exercise, meditation, walking in the morning, fixing sleep, etc. has just as good if not better impact than most therapies or medications for many conditions. Therapy and it's variations is just another treatment approach which should be selected, people choosing which therapist or group therapy program they choose depend on LLM output is fair though.

Also on LLM you NEED to specify they need to do a deep research request, not just enter this into an LLM. I'd show a screenshot of the button to use on different llms. Normies will use the cheapest/stupidest llm, et some totally hallucinated output because they are using the free one and think it's real. I'm not sure which ones offer those for free now but that would be worth telling people about.

>>34043617
cont.
The fundamental issue with your suggestion is it essentially frames their life issues as coming from the listed conditions/traumas. If you frame it this way the LLM is likely to reinforce that. LLMs work simply based on text pattern recognition and if you frame things as being rotoed in some fundamental trauma's or "conditions" (mental health diagnosis ARE NOT conditions, they are invented categories/heuristics for doing research and treatment, no one "has" a mental illness. This is not a fringe opinion this is what they actually are, here is a talk by the head of psych at johns hopkins about it https://youtu.be/Af5RSk6Bx-Y this one is specifically on how the hyper specific causal framings can damage patients, relevant to you).

This form is basically set up for the LLM to teach someone their life has issues because of some magical "conditions" (that don't exist) and some weird hyper specific/negative framing of their life history and putting a huge emphasis on negative events. The issue is because how LLMs work with your framing it will in effect try to teach people that this IS the cause of their issues, and put a huge weight on the trait/"trauma". Most normies have 0 concept of what llms actually are and are likely to by into it and I see this as basically leading to people just buying into AI hallucinations and sort of deeply undermining the capacity for actually understanding their issues.
I've had people do something vaguely similar and the inane fucking bullshit people will read and think is "insightful" especially using psychological/llm language is insane, people are very susceptible to just buying into whatever it says even if it is baseless or fundamentally meaningless.

Using your form it will just teach them your frankly unresearched, unjustifiable and false foundation of "conditions" + "trauma" = your issues which will be bad for people, sine though the treatments might help you know 90% won't actually do them.

>>34044572
cont. again.
The only valuable way to have something like this would to have it be specifically a-causal, to not "force" specific causes onto the user like you are doing (since the LLM will just argue in defense of your shitty ideas) have it focused basically exclusively on any practical stuff they could do to improve their life/therapy programs/treatments they can find. Deep research modes can if they put in the city they live in find specific group therapy programs, or say if it's social issues places they could go to try talking to people. That stuff is valuable. LLMs should not be used at all to try to establish anything causal and it should be prompted specifically to say that, for the input just have some more open ended description from that person about their life and their issues, and ask it to suggest practical things they can do to improve it.
The focus on "conditions" and "trauma" is just like you hallucinating from talking to LLMs practically it doesn't actually give any insight or practical benefit. Someone just describing in brief a life history, their current issues, and how they'd like to improve their life and what is impeding them, then getting a deep research request for specific practices they can do to achieve that (which might include say specific therapies or other practices) would be easier and more effective than yours. As I said reading this w/ the emphasis on causes makes me feel like the LLM hallucinated causes at you and you just believed them, which is the risk with this stuff.

The main issue is because of the specific nature of the first part of the form, that is what LLMs will teach authoritatively as actually being the case, the cause of their life issues, which is just not true. The fact you didn't specify deep research, or WHICH llms to use (people will just use the cheapest free one and believe all the hallucinations) also suggests to me you have a very limited understanding of even how to use llms well.

>>34043617
My issues with therapists is that they never really care much, it's ridiculous. As it's part of a mentality that judges the severity of a trauma. Even though I have long lasting effects, it maybe would not be a big deal for someone else. Like imagine if you have been on bail for "only" 1 week instead, and tell them it affected you a lot. It's getting brushed off because "it was just one week, just let it go" and those therapists do more harm than help. Because you start to see the fault in you instead. And the advice is basically
>just force yourself to do the stuff you are afraid of
It's all so tiresome. It sounds great, but I'm too exhausted to try rn

>>34044582
also final in general:
I love how easy it is to see someone comes up with some harebrained scheme talking to an LLM and is totally convinced it makes sense and is rational because they got tricked by some middling llm model and probably weren't even using a good one.
This shit really obvious if you interact with LLM lots where it's just a bunch of loose not really related ideas chained together with nothing underlying them but presented with a like pseudo-objective character llms try to have.
i love ai psychosis it's fun to see but OP you are retarded

>>34044177
I think people should take the current PPM model for a grain of salt. I have no ego in this being the best/first time something like this existed. I know case formulation/conceptualization is already a thing done in the background by a clinician, and the closest to the PPM model I'm currently aware of is Padesky's "Collaborative Case Formulation".
https://www.padesky.com/clinical-corner/publications/

Afaik it's not standard practice tho, which I think might be the biggest issue. The average person doesn't usually have enough metacog to do the level of introspection needed to actually articulate themselves well to a clinician, and most clinicians (in my experience at least) never really have the patient collaborate in case formulation. The hope with the PPM model is you can give it to a clinician and they can use it to help with case formulation.

So far I have two people with PhDs in the field interested (my psych prof and one of my in-laws), several psych students, my psychiatrist and my ADHD therapist. All of which I consider biased parties, so I take that into consideration as I tentatively develop this model more.
I encourage people to question it, criticize it, tear it down, etc. It's the only way we can apply enough rigor to improve the model. To some extent I have found that the liminal space between informal/causal interaction with one's psychology, while also interfacing with something that will have a lot of research to draw from behind it over time, allows the average person to feel more comfortable with it. Many folks have even stated the fact it felt like a step before going to a clinician made it feel more comfortable to question themselves.

I have zero idea what the true efficacy a model like this can have, but so far the two dozen people that have tired it have claimed it has helped in some way. Even more so for those that actually took it to a clinician and had them refine their case formulation with the new data from introspection.

>>34044572
>>34044582
Thank you for this well thought out feedback. Very much appreciated.

I was actually thinking about a lot of this while working on the first draft. Another person who is interested in PPMs with an LLM background corroborated your assessment. I think once we have a web version that is module-based we can avoid a lot of the issues in regards to people interfacing with LLMs. Basically, answers from step 1 lead to refined questioning in step 2, which then leads to suggested targeted therapies/treatment/self care modules that address specific areas of weakness.
And I agree with you on the more preferred method of giving an expansive life story to the LLM. The attempt here with the PPM is moreso to help people collect their thoughts. But I understand your concerns about how it's framed to the model completely. In the next version I will probably entirely redo step 3 with that in mind until the web version is up.

I'm also considering making a custom PPM Ai model. I think the more ways we can offer for someone to interface with an introspection framework the better. No one size fits all, it's impossible to achieve that given the psychological and neurological nuance to all of this.

If you'd like to give more feedback as we progress feel free to add me on discord (my account is the same as my namefag tag). We started a dumping ground discord for people to suggest ways to improve it.

>>34044614
I'm not 100% convinced PPMs are all that great. And my own introspection was 90% myself, 10% me asking an LLM to help me locate research relevant to my predispositions/genetics + behavioral traits + trauma history (current age @ trauma is also relevant to developmental stage of the individual).

Example prompt used for collecting research:

Find research that intersects biological sex with ADHD (inattentive), early maternal separation/death, covert burnout/stimulus processing lag and lack of activation from external reward circuitry. Provide sources

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>>34039241