This shit is all over social media and has been for a while. Is it bullshit? What does /an/ think of it
>>5076024>Is it bullshit?yes, there are similar videos with cats and those are also bullshit. and koko the gorilla was also bullshit. and the dolphin on LSD that needed to get jerked off by that one lady also never learned to talk
weirdly horses are better than dogs at symbolic stuff like selecting from pictures
>>5076024Bullshit made for clicks.You want to find an actually intelligently communicating animal look up Apollo. He's only the 2nd animal in history to ask a question for the purpose of learning something and not just repeating the question, the first being his predicessor Alex.
>>5076057what was the question
>>5076062>do you feel in-charge?
>>5076062Iirc he asked "what color" something was and learned the name of the color, and was able to repeat and remember it. Don't remember the object or color.
>>5076057Grey parrots are very smart but at the end of the day it’s just memorizing the right combination of things to say for a reward. He simply managed to remember a more complex combination than other parrots. You can also tell Apollo’s owners (or a friend of theirs) wrote his Wikipedia page.
>>5076057Birds are weird I was talking at / ‘with’ one for a long time at a small pet store once
>>5076052Depends on the dogs, collies have shown linguistic ability superior to horses so far reaching up to 1200 words before the researchers gave up. Horses are harder to work with because if there nose and lip can't manipulate it it is hard to show what they know. This has been holding back mirror testing.
>>5076024Basically it's the same behavior as a dog scratching on a door because it wants out. I used to know a guy who hung a bell on his door knob and his dog learned to ring the bell when he wanted out.
>>5076024>poodle mix>owner is a retardmany such cases
>>5076070He saw himself in a mirror and was asking what color he was since they never taught him grey
>>5076096>just memorizing the right combination of things to say for a reward. He simply managed to remember a more complex combination than other parrots.in this way we humans are more similar than different
>>5076096>Grey parrots are very smart but at the end of the day it’s just memorizing the right combination of things to say for a rewardBut the definition of "reward" is very different from the way we would apply it with dogs. Greys understand context association and utilize it in communication to the point of compound langauge. A Grey can learn the words "good night" or "bedtime" as being associated with sleep for instance and then when they are tired say those words to communicate they want to go to sleep in their cage without even bring trained to do it. My family's grey even knows when someone is about to leave the house and will always say goodbye, even if no one has already said it or made it something that can be rewarded. It's just something he does and understands divorced from obvious reward mechanisms or motivations.
Alex's story saddens me. At least Apollo is a companion not an experiment. Dr Pepperberg was one cold bitch....
>>5076062Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you.
>>5076024HELL NAW
>>5076260Kek
>>5076024I saw a dog that made the combo "ice car" for a few days and the owner thinks it meant he wanted the pup cup from starbucks.
>>5076057Is this the Shrek parrot? I always wondered if he's seen the actual movie and if he'd recognize Shrek on screen.
It's just Pavlovian Conditioning scaled up.
>>5076615Yes.To be brutally honest when you see clips of him in a casual setting being shown objects to name he has a low accuracy rate, but for some reason he defaults a lot to Shrek or Glass
>>5076620But when he wants to impress some college girl he has 100% accuracy rate.https://www.youtube.com/shorts/E3NdLU-lVFk
>>5076623>cuts with every correct guessI wouldn't take that short at face value
>>5076070in one of the videos Apollo also bonked a bathroom tile and asked what's thiswhich is either a genuine question or imitating Dalton, or both
>>5076057don't know if it's bullshit or not but I read a youtube comment that claimed the owner says the questions just with different infelction and that the parrot reacts to that instead of the objects. but I don't know if that would make it less impressive
>>5076623Wow he just like me
>>5076208That was Alex.What did Apollo ask?
>>5076024
>>5077416Pavlovian conditioning is not operant conditioning. Operant conditioning requires, and is subject to (rather than controlling) rational thought. It has already been proven dogs can interpret some human language and syntax. Like chimps, they can’t produce syntax themselves. The dog actually is communicating with buttons. But if chimps cant do more than demand words and alarm words then neither can dogs. ie: give means human hand to chimp, but they can not say give to chimp, only give to represent that entire concept/mental image of a human giving to a chimp. Dogs seem to work about like this (and dream, so they have mental images). I believe dogs would pass the mirror test if they did not purposefully get dirty to have other dogs inspect the dirt but their ability to produce new thought is clearly more limited than their ability to understand existing things.
Until we can get an animal like a chimp to understand an existential threat I don't think you will ever get a genuine attempt at forming communication. Language develops in response to survival strategys, until we start implimenting a threat to drive language development we will never see progress beyond food requests.You need to drag out and shoot a few chimps in front of a troop. Give the troop food intially and then attempt to communicate for a chimp to hand over the food, then when they attempt to get aggressive in turn you shoot them and take the food. Once a chimp has learned to associate a particular phrase with the taking of food and the existential threat of being killed in front of their family you can move to step two by digging a pit. From here you carrel a chimp into it and point a gun and say a very simple word 3 times like "mercy", then if the chimp does not respond you shoot them. Repeat this over a dozen generations until through trial and error chimps begin to make partial vocalizations of the word.While violent you are creating distinct interspecies communication through the primal drive of survival instinct. Positive reinforcement only gets you so far but with fear you can expand the potential understanding of communication. If an organism's only way of surviving is to communicate with a predator they will sure evolve to accomadate.
>>5076046It was a stupid experiment. We would also be unable to vocalize like dolphins.
>>5076674https://youtube.com/shorts/HcU3HAJxFIY
>>5076046>and the dolphin on LSD that needed to get jerked off by that one lady
>>5077988Not the same anon, but...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Howe_Lovatt
I'd appreciate your feedback /an/onswordz.site/dognames/en
>>5076209>i will perform a complex series of actions that result in nuggiesit checks out, yet another arbitrary attempt to meaningfully separate human intellect from animal intellect.
>>5077598>if we just torture one more set of animals the results will be significant and worthwhile!!Until you see the communication issue is on your end you cannot progress as a species.
>>5077598>Until we can get an animal like a chimp to understand an existential threathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkWS4t4l0k
>>5078109Why bring ourselves down when we can alleviate others to our level of communication?
>>5078431KEK
>>5076161Herding dogs are just insanely smart. I talk to my cattle dog like he's a toddler and it's like he understands what i'm saying. I don't know if this is unusual for dogs but if he wants to go to the park or something and he's whining I'll say 'soon' and he'll chill out then obviously wait for me. So he seems to understand the idea of the future.
>>5079233>Herding dogs are just insanely smart>>I talk to my cattle dog like he's a toddlerAre you a woman?
>>5079235No I'm a man. I don't mean that i talk to him like he's my baby, i mean that the level of communication is the same as if i was talking a toddler.
>>5079236I do the same thing. It works man.
>>5079233Huskies are like this too. My two act like they understand hold on, where is it, what do you want, show me, find ___, etc without being specifically trained. Shouldnt most dogs be able to do this? People had dogs for 40k years, training manuals for 100, and proper knowledge of operant conditioning for like, 50. I would be surprised if a dog could not learn basic language at all.
>>5076138yep ive seen it when two crows did a coordinated attack on a squirrel. one was barking orders, and it looked like a dance. also my gsd routinely tries to talk and i can make deals with her and she understands. my other dog too. why not, im telepathic and even insects have thoughts. bumblebees especially. mantises too. squirrels.. so many. some dont have any though and just follow pheremones/instinct.
>>5077561You're completely wrong about cognition in animals, mostly because you assume certain things to be signs of "higher intelligence" like dreams. Rats dream. Fish dream. Insects dream. Lots of things dream. And the same is true of operant conditioning. Pigeons are fully capable of it, this isn't something you need to be super evolved for because it's a very basic requirement of interacting with your environment.What makes Humans special isn't that we are "intelligent" (because almost any animal with a brain is), but rather we're meta-intelligent. We don't just think, we think about our thoughts.
>>5079303To assume that only humans think about thoughts is hubris. Humans are the only ones to turn it into abstract language and actually cease to think about thoughts and accept actual hallucinations as fact as a mental shortcut. Turn that off and receive the animal state - a nonverbal savant.
>>5078431>Evil scientists gaslight gorilla into thinking he will die
>>5079313Language is what unlocks meta-intelligence. We're not talking about things like "passing the mirror test" or "tool use". That's all extremely common, especially when you broaden 'tool use' to something like 'agriculture', at which point even ants can do it.
>>5077985I want a bird friend now
>>5079428all reasoning minds with the usual senses have internal audio-visual-emotional thought like us. every human alive can also think without words and think about thought without words same as an animal. unless you’re some reduced, dumbed down domesticated human and lost your capacity for non-linguistic conscious thought and non-linguistic concept comprehension. apparently these people are real (they have an internal monologue that never shuts up because they literally dont think without it since all they need to survive is social programming, normal humans can turn it off and use other modes)language is part of heuristics but not all of thinking about thought. its also part of schizophrenia and overreliance on linguistic reasoning results in objectively disordered behavior like religion and ethics/logic worship. Language distorts thought as much as it elevates it. A language-dependent can only conceive of what they have accepted words for and can only come to conclusions that are allowable in their language-culture complex. An infamous example of the error of language dependence: the name that trait argument for veganism. Non-linguistic thought can easily conceive of the fundamental essence that differentiates creatures but the english language lacks the vocabulary to describe it in a way a language-dependent (AKA wordcel) can understand. Wordcels may even consider linguistic reasoning the only valid reasoning and accuse non-linguistic comprehension of being invalid because it is more personal. They are unaware that the core principles of linguistic thought are arbitrary personal abstractions because to see that clearly requires non-linguistic comprehension of the broader inner world from which language draws.
>>5079516it pains me to know there are people who can not even think about smells without relying on words for them, think about theoretical sequences of events without self talking their way through them, or meditate on the consequences of a deep belief. they might not even have that, a thought that isn’t real but is held as if it were material fact, without needing a word like the taste of sugar does not need to be called sweet to be so.imagine not having that ability in your mindjust not being able to think unless you have the words for itthese are probably the people that "need" therapists and fall for memes like chemical imbalances causing depression
>He is samefagging again
>>5079527>>5079516Wait, are there really people who literally can not think without words? Their brain is just constant radio chatter?>I am looking at an apple.>I am a good person I am following the rules for good people prescribed to me by the smart ones. Hail logic. Hail rationality.>I am walking now.>If the words for it sound correct it is correct.How the fuck do these people do math? Design and build shit? Make value judgements without being told how to?Is this what pseuds and midwits are actually like on the inside?
>>5079516>>5079527>>5079584>t. 5s deluding themselves into thinking their dearth of an inner monologue makes them intellectually superior to 1s
>>5079620Having no internal monologue ability is as bad as not being able to think without language and being unable to recognize that language can only approximate higher truthsAlso, visualizing objects and self talk are not the same skill.
>>5079603They become lawyers and use their wordcel powers to make defending blatantly guilty rapists their ethical duty
>>5079623NTA but what is "thinking without language" ? Knowing base feelings like "I'm hungry" ?
>>5079527What's worse is knowing that someone else has some ability they consider not just valuable but important, and seeing that they are disturbed by the lack of it in you. People say stuff like wow imagine if there were still homo erectus in 2015- but half the fucking population of the planet is working with archaic brains already. It's not funny, it's genuinely disturbing.
>>5079428Language may be what allows certain things to develop in a species, but for the individual, it's just a tool. You need the world around you, but you do not need words for your thoughts. If anything it limits you, and I'm not talking about some hippie shit here I'm saying language can actually make you less prepared for problem solving
>>5076057He's just repeating the same question his owners have asked him thousands of times.
>>5076260I hate the way stuff like this reaches me. 'THE FIRST SENTENCE CONSTRUCTED BY AN ANIMAL' And it's babble transcribed. Even if the monke was actually thinking 'Give+me+thing=request', it's not a sentence. It's probably the fuckin thing trying to make sure the pseudoscientist is watching and is catching all the words.
>>5079751The brain makes 'words' for everything you think about. Unless you're very dumb you are talking to yourself regardless of whether you're around people. nta btw
>>5079766No it doesnt. If you are talking to yourself constantly you are very dumb. Words are inefficient and distorting. >>5079751not counting math (an advanced language), visual-spatial-temporal and emotional comprehension. If you can’t shut the internal narrative off you are missing a major part of thought. Notice the wordcels are very dumb but also very smug. They think that if someone can shut the narrative off and think more efficiently, they’re inferior, and cant visualize an apple, but shutting off the uselessly abstracted words makes room for much grander visualizations than an apple. It is possible to visualize and feel moral concepts and extended coherent scenarios like the full disassembly and reassembly of a car. But the haughty narrative, aka schizophrenia jr, must shut up. Its noise is often garbage on a foundation of garbage.
>>5079773Holy shit >>5079620 is right, this NPC does actually think it's smarter lmao
>>5079778>you can think with and without language? you must be dumber than me, who can only do on thing. My wordcel powers tell me the shame program has been triggered. Despite what you said, you can not visualize an apple! THATS WHAT THE WORDS OF THE NPC MEME SAY!Ok so the idea is too complex for your puny overly verbal brain so you fell back on fitting it to dogma, thats all you creatures do. Language is a crutch. It communicates. It cant alter reality. Its a poor tool for dealing with it. You are a domesticated dog limited to linguistic programming. You are controlled by dogma imposed upon you by others. You can not interact with reality and actually need "philosophy" to begin to struggle with the fact that nothing actually matters AND that’s not a life-changing fact. You probably believe words can define right and wrong as truths and that right and wrong are not attempts at communicating something more primitive and real.
As an autist, this whole thinking with words stuff and constant brain chatter frankly feels a lot like my thought process.I can tell you now though, I rarely feel like the dumbest person at work since many people seem to have this chronic inability to remember relevant information. Philosophical wankery won't help get anything done, I wouldn't trade my internal filing cabinet.
>>5079800most people have neither thought process. no chatter. no visions. no meditations. they cant speak in their headthey definitely cant have multiple concurrent voices in their headthey can’t explore their thought process intuitively or symbolicallythey can’t trace language itself down to its weights and motivators. they can not command their mind to break a word into every concept that defines it and then apply that again until they have no word at all, but also a fuller comprehension of that word. they can’t audiate. they can’t visualize. they can not smell or touch or feel in their mind. they can not experience emotions of any degree hypothetically. they need to listen to loud music to experience what its like to voluntarily feel something. they watch video non stop to simulate having the minds eye. people like this are not animals because animals do more thinking than them. they can be taught to force an internal narrative and that is all they ever do. you can tell, because its so unnatural to them they accidentally do it out loud.
>>5079773Talking to yourself inside your head. Not using words, but performing the same kind of exercise, without words.
>>5079620As a 3.5, how the fuck do I make it to 1? I assume for me it's more like a muscle that can be trained vs 5s who are just fully lobotomized. I already read a ton, have vivid dreams, etc.
>>5079620What do you call someone on this list who can not only picture it, but describe the feeling, smell, taste and texture of the apple? A 6?
>>5079840Naive. The pic is a meme.
As an old high-IQ aspie loser who can think both verbally and non-verbally, I gotta say that I think you're not nearly as special or as smart as you seem to think you are. And even if you are, you shouldn't be masturbating in public like that, it's unseemly. Also, if you can't put something into words, and explain it to somebody, then you don't fully understand it. You're just fooling yourself. Non-verbal thought is good at that, like understanding things in a dream, only then you wake up and realize it was bullshit.
>>5079855t. typical 5
>>5079955the english language literally does not have commonly understood words or anything shorter than a paragraph for some concepts. Ex: indian izzat isnt exclusively indian (many eastern cultures do) but only their word fully encapsulates the gravity of their petulant teenager like shame and pride complex. english needs to specify, lengthily, just how far it goes beyond a concept its already ill equipped to describe (face). so if you know it, it’s easier to imagine the catastrophic rube goldberg machine of prideful pajeets than to explain exactly how stupid it really is.
>>5079836imagine the Price is Right showing off a shiny red macintosh apple as the grand prize. the bright lighting, the set design around it, the pedestal it's on.
>>5079836Go back in time and be born to more intelligent parentsThere are people itt who cant understand the difference between not relying on an internal narrative and not having one and can’t understand that visualization can be separate, not downstream from it. Humans are not an intelligent species.
>>5076161How the fuck have people bred these dysgenic, helpless idiot miniature dog breeds and these primally switched on psychopathic beautiful ones, and they never sat up and went let's try and breed one that can communicate? Some dogs are smart enough that it seriously interferes with their being kept as pets, but we never made one you can reason with? Is dog physiology just that far from that kind of communication? Not saying I'd want one, I mean imagine sitting at home and your pet turns on its talk box and says Hey can we rewatch A Fistful of Dollars when we come home from the after dinner walk?
>>5080056>Humans are not an intelligent species Hi leddit
>>5080061He does seem pretty "enlightened by his own intelligence," huh?
>>5079763https://youtube.com/shorts/30y0pBSvefY
>>5076070His millennial owners are awful people. They keep him around these two bad bitch parrots and never let him get any action.Imagine you're kept around a pair of exotic latina spinners but you're never allowed to get any action. Apollo lives in hell.
>>5076096>it’s just memorizing the right combination of things to saySo what you're trying to say is that grey parrots are large language models?
>>5077630>We would also be unable to vocalize like dolphins.Uhh I doubt that, and I volunteer to prove it. Let's start with the getting jerked off by a tomboy part
>>5076024Depends. Dogs understand basic concepts like "food" and "walk" so if a dog is conditioned to press a button, and that button conveys a word it knows and understands (assuming that these things sound like they do to dogs the way they do to us and not just garbled electronic nonsense) then it's not exactly a complicated thing. No more so then dogs bringing you their leash when they want to walk, or nosing their bowl.However what is bullshit are the more abstract ones, like when a dog communicates that it paw hurts or that it misses someone or that a car went by outside. These are just the same tricks that paranormal investigators use, i.e. dog presses random button probably looking for reward, owner responds questioningly, dog presses another random button, owner then links the two concepts together and acts like the dog communicated something. Like paw - ouch "oh your paw hurts!" or noise - scared "oh dude that car that went by was really loud did that scare you?". You have to remember as well, like with paranormal investigation, you're only seeing the "hits", you're not seeing all the times the dogs press random shit that doesn't end up being compelling.
>>5079527I have this kind of, it's not as bad though. sometimes if I can't find the words to describe something I can really really struggle to understand it.I couldn't and still can't explain why sex feels good, and I can't explain what it feels like outside of "good" because the words just aren't there. when I get really in my own head I start to doubt all of my emotions because they're so abstracted.I very around it by just ignoring the voice in my head that demands I explain everything. I think I'm just insane lol
>>5079955>Also, if you can't put something into words, and explain it to somebody, then you don't fully understand it.this kekthey think they have some deep understanding beyond what language is capable of but in reality they are just feeling It's like when a junkie thinks they figured out the universe. You're not thinking without words you're feeling
dogs can learn a shit ton of words, for example my dog knows the name of the family members she likes and places she likes, + normal dog stuff but i'd say the stuff you see on social media is bs
>>5081296The mangoes are not for lewd
>>5082300The english language is literally not capable of many concepts and restricts thought.Basic concepts that literally any chinese man can fully articulate are vague "___, as in ____, like when ____, because its so fucking obvious, you have to" statements in english.This is why angloid society is so fucked. Structured, yes, but english limits thought severely. English philosophers have largely fucked over society and the planet with ideals that ONLY sound like they make sense in english. It is simply the way their culture has structured their language - sanity is made to sound evil, insanity is made to sound virtuous.
>>5083097>Inventions of anglophone "rational thought">veganism>zionism (yes, seriously, the jews never had the thought, they were expecting a mashiach to show up and magic israel into existence)>social justice ("racial equity")>hermetic order of the golden dawn>neo-gnosticism>freemasonrythese are symptoms of speaking english due to a tendency of thought taught by a languageto describe something as just something, and then generalize that just something to another thing entirely. and yet, be unable to apply this to core concepts, which are enshrined in english as ultimate somethings so that doubting them sounds insane. their "just something" definition SOUNDS like a snide immature complaint, because that is the only way english permits it to be phrased. only english speakers do this prolifically enough to conjure up legalistic pseudo-moral philosophies with zero connection to reality and infinite connection to defining words in... english, applying english thought.
>>5079620This never works for me I always end up with one of those crash bandicoot fruits
>>5079620I can do as detailed as I want but I can't hold it at all, it isn't a constant image and just flashes in and out super fast
>>5083097>>5083099>>>/x/
>>5076161Horse lips are dexterous as fuck, tho
>>5076068Kek
>>5083341That’s more on the high end of /sci/. Linguistic constraints on thought are very real. Philosophy is never true beyond nihilism, and its very likely that all value systems are irrational artifacts of language.
>>5083441>Linguistic constraints on thought are very realAccording to Chomsky and some other philosophers, but there's more than enough reason to suspect that it's a load of bullshit
>>5083566all the retarded shit is in english thoin japanese you get ideas like>chill out man>it cant be helped>ethical obligation? self evident>does the dog think? yeah probably. why do you care if they dont? planning something?
>>5083575>he says, as he ports the console-exclusive non-English ideas to an English multiplat
>>5078097>the dolphin killed itself after funding ran out and it stopped getting acid and daily handjobs
>>5076024Have you ever met a dog?Of course its bullshit
>>5083689I would believe it if it were smart dogs that already attempt to communciate like huskies but doodles are not that smart. They cant even push a cracked door open and only know how to bark.
>>5083613Wouldn't we all?
>>5076024Iv been watching a lot of these, they are pretty fun. I feel like they are very much true. A lot of the time I notice when they actually try to form a sentence or a thought pattern, it very much makes sense but not in the way we think about things. I mean, it might be related simply to the way those buttons are arranged and words they chose to put on them..but most of the time..when they try to "form a sentence" or communicate, owner had to take a good minute to understand what they refer too because of how different they structure thought process. When sentences seemingly make sense, they are very much "of the feelings and notions" not necessarily of objects like we think but of past experiences that were related to simp emotions..there was this lady cat with cat being it seems quite smart. Cat was saying something like "tube plant".. woman in video almost half an hour to figure out it was the pumpkin food in the can she was referring and not some "plant" or a toy. It also it seems takes them a good minute to express themself almost as though they expect you to immediately understand, line you are the one who's having a trouble understanding what they saying almost..
>>5083969>line you are the one who's having a trouble understanding what they saying almost..if they're intelligent enough to think something and then press a button that is associated with that thing, even trying to get a specific outcome, it doesn't necessarily mean they're intelligent enough to understand that their owner has independent thoughts and independent knowledge from them, just like how a toddler might fail the sally-anne test (you know the one, where sally puts some cookies in a tin, walks off, anne puts the cookies in a basket instead, and when sally comes back you ask the toddler where sally will look for the cookies; many toddlers will say "the basket" because they know where they are, and don't realize that sally wouldn't.)also fuck this new captcha
