Longer version: >https://coinforum.de/topic/33520-6-stelliger-schaden-durch-inkompetentes-und-schikanierendes-finanzamt-betrugsartiges-verhalten-von-anwalt-was-tun/Shorter version:>held crypto since 2016 and made a few mm since. mostly with BTC / QNT / LINK.>since I always held over a year until 2020, it was tax free.>in 2020, I traded with 12mm euro volume, handed in my tax declaration, and paid 350k euro in taxes. this was accepted.>i left germany EOY 2021 and started travelling through europe.>a few years later, after my old bank seemingly opened a money laundering case, an incompetent tax employee must have looked over my files again and mistook the 12mm volume for my starting capital. he then ordered a bogus external audit at an old address at which I no longer live, asking for too much and absurd data.>i went to an accountant / tax lawyer, who wanted to write an extremely expensive “selbstanzeige” from the start, despite me never asking for it.>his employees also never gave me a reason on why exactly things have to be done, told me that a “selbstanzeige” is possible despite it being legally blocked by the external audit, there were outrageous fees, the person assigned to me casually changed its surname to something generic, etc.>multiple times, I said that I don’t want to do a “selbstanzeige”, replied to only with fear mongering.>after I asked a few other lawyers, all of which told me that “selbstanzeige” was /not/ necessary, the first lawyer can’t explain why it was necessary. he talks about mysterious “red lists”, circles values which were simply declared in a different tax category (that was perfectly fine and also mentioned by me), sends me text generated by chat-gpt, etc. and he wants to block me after crying over my “long emails”.>the tax authorities must not have considered it a “selbstanzeige”, either, since I actually overpaid by 250k euro and no criminal procedure was opened.
Ultimately I didn’t get any money back from the Finanzamt, despite having overpaid 250.000 euro in taxes in 2020 due to me having used a "wrong" pricing method when creating the tax report back then. And I’m also down 65.000 euro in fraudulent lawyer fees.Not sure what to do now. The tax authorities in germany generally don’t act in good faith. Instead, it’s pretty obvious that they actively want to hurt you. Should I even stay in europe? I unironically feel like a jew who is being hunted and persecuted by the german state just for being a jew. Also when judged by past interactions with the state.Are crypto investors considered “jews” by the german state, anons? And why does one of the most self-advertised german crypto-accountants employ the tactics of call-center scammers?Anyone know somebody who had similar experiences? Or has any tips / ideas? Asking here, of course, because I expect greater expertise than from “expert lawyers”. Here I can get scammed for free.
>>61492007>he then ordered a bogus external audit at an old address at which I no longer live, asking for too much and absurd data.an audit of a private person about almost 10 year old data? sounds strange. also, technically, the finanzamt has schweigepflicht and shouldn't by itself start investigating you because of money laundering. something is missing here.
>>61492025Thanks for the reply, anon. The audit covered the years 2020 - 2023. So 4 tax years in total. Technically, only 3 years are legal, AFAIK. It also asked about things like the registration letters from an old bank account, when said bank account has already been closed by the bank 4 years or so ago. It generally asked for too many and absurd data.The audit also asked whether I "traded crypto before 2020". Despite me already having informed the Finanzamt about this beforehand. And the money laundering charge was supposedly filed by the bank. I tried to condense the info a bit, because it would be a lot longer otherwise.
Also just for quick clarification: I left germany EOY 2021. And I told them that my old address still serves as a postal adress (it's where a relative lives). Then they demanded that I still hand in tax returns. Which I simply did, since I only made losses within the 1-year timeframe. I saw no reason to fight it. Since they like to claim that you are still "steuerpflichtig" if you don't actually settle down in a different country.Never expected them to appear for an external audit at such a postal adress, however. Especially not with bogus 12mm euro claims. Asking for too many years. Etc. I learned about the audit only weeks after the Finanzamt had already appeared at the place... The tax lawyer then obviously took full advantage of the situation...
>>61492007Consider who you deal with - they come from college and work at tax office for life with zero grasp for business. Because they dont earn much they get super jealous whenever they get documents with millions. And they dont even understand revenue is not profit and even try to fuck with small biz because they see 2m revenue and get immediately into le rich le bad mindset. Thats straight from a fed up taxman explaining the situation.This is most likely also what happened to you - some poor fucker saw your papers and decided to mess with you out of sheer hate.The usual meta play is to make sure to deal with old fucks about to retire not college kids, the young ones are the worst because they trying to prove themself and climb on top of being fresh out of money due college. But since you out of country that doesn't even apply to you since you cant pick.I think the only important aspect for you is to reply to all their documents in time without getting baited into guilt admission which you thankfully already did.
>>61492101so the audit is about the last four years and not about the time you actually traded that money. i think this has nothing to do with your crypto stuff at all and instead you triggered some alarm when that money left the german banking system. i don't think a tax lawyer is what you need right now, but rather someone who is specialized in money laundering cases. this winheller group you mention in your forum post only has a good internet presentation, their consultation was pretty weak in my experience.
>>61492154Not sure I got the last sentence of your post. Winheller already sent in the "selbstanzeige", but it wasn't interpreted as such. And the audit concluded that I overdeclared 2020 by 500.000 euro or so. But the entire thing was way over the top and cost me 65.000 euro. And I didn't receive any money back from the Finanzamt, despite having overdeclared by that much and effectively paid 250.000 euro too many taxes. Which is ridiculous in itself...Maybe also interesting: Winheller constantly told me that new laws have to be applied to open cases. But later on, I received no money back, because the tax guy didn't want to reopen the year 2020. (So it wasn't an open case. And Winheller clearly misled me about the prospects of receiving money back.)>>61492166Yeah IDK what triggered it. I held crypto from 2016 until now. I traded in high volume (12mm euro revenue) in 2020, which is the first year covered by the audit. But back then, my tax declaration was accepted. Only the tax declarations 2022 and 2023 were "subject to change" of sorts. Which is where my old bank supposedly filed for money laundring charges and closed my account. However: The money laundering charge was I believe already closed by a Staatsanwalt. It was then handed on to the Finanzamt. And the guy sitting there then clearly half-assed my tax statements, didn't look deeper into my case, and fired nuclear bomb. Because he believed my revenue (12mm) to be my starting capital (only 100k euro). Causing me massive damage. And that country "Germany" then calls itself constitutional. Thanks for the replies again. But again... it's kind of hard to feel safe in general. I did nothing wrong, and even overdeclared massively, but still have to fear. Even now. It's just pointless terrorizing.
Also just out of curiousity: Does anyone know whether the Finanzamt can play any more games after already having conluded the audit with me having overdeclared by about 500.000 Euro? If they were to read this here, for example.
>>61492235paying too much in first place is your own fault desu.Others try to lowball and only pay up when the amt denies their declaration. Some funny fuckers even penny pinch and declare expenses like pc electricity cost for doing the trades.As for the winheller thing did they actually call it officially selbstanzeige? The wording matters. You can do a selbstanzeige that legally isnt one so you dont have admission of guilt. Some lawyers are trash and work against their client but i wouldn't assume worst case immediately and make sure if they really fucked up first.
>>61492255No, they didn't. Luckily. They called it such only to me and said that it's necessary. But without ever going into detail as to why. Which of course meant writing a huge ass letter that cost a fortune. And now he can't explain why it was necessary. (You could simply assume that he half-assed my case, the same way the tax guy half-assed my tax declaration. But if you remove that half-assedness, the general behaviour appears fraudulent to me.)I think I also realized. The people sitting at the Finanzamt, and these tax lawyers... they are in good company. Both are out only to rip you off. And if you're just a normal person which wants to do its taxes... The Finanzamt doesn't appear to be the right place for that.
>>61492241They can do a lot because you are one of the evil guys, crypto bros, afd, Russians, etc..It would be years of legal fight I think.But if you accept the 250k I think it actually should be good,maybe write that to the Finanzamt boomers, say I forget that if you conclude my case. Otherwise I will go through all instances to get all back.Oder hau ab nach Weißrussland oder Südostasien.
>>61492280So their letter was as i guessed just "tell us how much client owes". Also just remembered might be related - they fired and rehired a lot of taxmen not too long ago and are still running a add campaign to hire more. If unlucky you might be dealing with beginner diversity hires.
>>61492375It was called "Aussenpruefung" (External Audit). Though I'm not a business, but a private person. And it was justified by the 12mm euro trading volume. Then it asked for all sorts of shit such as 10 year old registration letters for since-then-closed bank accounts, it asked for too many years, it asked whether I own real estate in foreign countries, it wanted "business documents" from coinbase that I couldn't possibly possess, and so on. It appeared as if the guy was pretty damn sure that I am a criminal. As if I am already convicted. So he also made sure to make the time-frame within which I could get all of this data as short as possible. The Aussenpruefung was announcted to my postal address 2 weeks in advance. Which would make it impossible for me to even get any legal representation, much less all of the requested data, had I actually lived at that address. But it was just a postal address, which I told them repeatedly. (But they kind of played dumb about my address. The same way they played dumb about many things in the past.)>>61492319It's pretty interesting to me, how reality clashes with propaganda. If you think of e.g. the pride flag being put up everywhere, despite homosexuals not really being persecuted anywhere in western countries, to a degree that you can't visit even holiday resorts without having this political shit shoved down your throat... On the other hand, there are people like me, who never received any social aid in their entire life, are evil only because they are male, happened to get into crypto (the tech of which now shapes the new financial system)... and I am actively being persecuted and massively damaged by the state. Like a jew. Here even in regards to money. But that's perfectly fine to these people. Despite me never having had any problems with the law.
>>61492007>i left germany EOY 2021this was your big mistake, should have waited another 5-10 years before doing that.
