bakin' sourdoughit is underbaked, but does it look underfermented too?
definitely something wacky going on. what's your ratio of preferment vs. the rest of the dough?a lot of my sourdough problems disappeared by simply increasing the amount of prepped starter. I've upped it to ~400 grams of preferment to 800 grams of flour+water. seems to work well and the taste isn't affected negatively.does it taste sour? a sour taste is what I get when using a starter-preferment that has already run out of steam.
>>21847552Whats your recipe, kneading/folding, proofing, baking methods, time, room temp etcIts probably under-fermented.>>21847664Starter % mostly affects fermentation time/speed.Faster fermentation can mean less sourness, but sourness is mostly determined by temperature.Cold fermentation creates sour flavor due to increase in ascetic acid production vs lactic acid.Room temp fermentation results in bread that is sweeter and more mild because LABs (lactic acid bacteria, responsible for majority of sourdough nutrition benefits) favors warmth.
>>21847664its 20 % rye starter and sure tastes sour>>21847719its no knead. 3 folds with 30min between 90min total, overnight cold proof, 15min rest, 3 hour final rise in tin.24c room temp68 % hydration3 % oil2 % saltvwg to make the wheat flour 14 % proteinstarter is real active, doubles in volume like 3 hours after feeding from fridge
>>21847732Whats your reasons for cold proofing?I'd suggest trying room temp proofing if you are not specifically doing cold proofing for sour flavor or convenience (room temp fermentation is actually optimal for the nutritional benefits of sourdough).If the issue is gumminess at bottom of loaf, that can be caused from both underbaking and underfermenting, but for high hydration doughs, not enough shaping can also cause it (which could be a problem if you are not doing any folds after the 3 hour final rise).I suggest doing a series of coil folds right before baking, 1-3 of them at ~30 min intervals, gives it a nice shape.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-6rskOq8I
>>21847732>>21847747cont.To maximize and optimize nutrition benefits, you will want to do room temp ferment FIRST then cold ferment, rather than cold ferment first then room temp fermenting at the end (still bring dough to room temp before baking).But room temp fermentation-only is the best for nutrition maximization/optimization.Cold fermentation is mainly for flavor change (sourness and textural denseness) and logistical convenience, NOT for optimal nutrition benefits.If you want a sweeter/milder and fluffier crumb, do room temp ferment only.
>>21847802seems legit>>21847747well gonna try room temp fermentation, 4 folds & also higher hydration let's find out
>>21847858nice, good luck>its 20 % rye starter and sure tastes sourIs your starter 100% rye and 20% of your total flour % ?Or is the starter itself only 20% rye?Is your bread a mixed grain bread?Also curious of oven temp, baking length, and baking apparatus used.
4 folds for 2 hours, 2 hour bulk and 2,5 hour final rise in loaf pan.looks nice but gummy & dense as ever. can roll a gumball out of the crust after letting the thing cool out of the loaf pan for an hour.>>21847878i have 100 % rye starter. 20% of total flour weight is starter. 10 % of bread's flour is rye, and 90 % is wheat.turned the oven from 240c to 225c and baked for 50mins. i have an alu pound loaf pan.
>>21848101>>21847552>>21847664no dabbing on you, op, but God fucking dammit. Why is it so hard to get bakery level bread??? There should be a single, never fail recipe to give anyone the ability to make an amazing, crispy and delicious bread that isn't raw
>>21848101Well the crumb does look better than your first pic.Some things I would try:Dont do the 2.5 hour final rise in the loaf pan. Add that time to the bulk and when the dough seems puffy and bubbly do a final fold (I really recommend a coil fold or two) then plop it into your pan and bake immediately.>Lack of final shaping fold reduces surface tension and weakens gluten structure, leading to poor oven spring and a dense, gummy crumb. The fold helps create a tight, elastic skin that traps gas and supports the loaf's shape during baking.Is your dough puffy with bubbles on the surface? If not may want to extend bulk for an hour or so.Also let the bread cool for 30-60 minutes before slicing the bread.Can also try baking a mini loaf, cut your recipe in half, like around 2 cups total, so you dont waste too much flour if it goes wrong. Cut the baking time maybe to 40 minutes if you do that.Also try baking it in the cast iron!Dont give up, your bread seems pretty close, just need to tweak some things.
>>21848101>4 folds for 2 hours, 2 hour bulk and 2,5 hour final rise in loaf pan.So for the final 4.5 hours are you not shaping it at all? If so I'm betting thats the issue.Do some final folds at the end then put it in the pan and bake right away.
>>21848379The problem is temperature is a very important variable which determines how long the dough should ferment for, and room temperature can vary drastically from place to place (also depending on the season).The skill is to bake according to the feel and look of the dough to determine if it is properly fermented, and this can only be achieved through experience and trial and error.
>>21848484It can also be achieved with $25 and 10 minutes
>>21848510You can also bake ~50 loaves of bread for less than that price.
>>21848515Yeah, but it would take me 3 days and I wouldn't even get good results cus I'm a breadlet.Suck on my sour vienna and be quiet.
>>21848530Yeah you are a breadlet but with that attitude you will forever be a breadlet.Being a breadmaker is a skill worth cultivating, nothing beats fresh baked homemade bread that can be made in countless variations, including pizzas and dessert focaccias.Also same-day room temp fermented bread exists, 3 day bread is unnecessary and undesirable in many respects.
>>2184854250 loaves would take me 3 days to make broSuck on my baguette and be quiet.
>>21848560WHAT DID YOU SAY?!!?!?!I CANT HEAR YOU BECAUSE IM BEING LOUD IN DEFIANCE OF YOUR IMPOTENT COMMANDS AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>21847552looks underproofed, good luck next time opey
here we go againbetter folding technique maybe this time. bulk ferment, coil folds & straight to baking tin this time.added bit extra rye flour to get to 13% total rye for fun, maybe boosts fermentation too>>21848379wouldn't be worth doing if it was easy>>21848473it wasn't bubbly on the surface. bubbling or rise didn't seem to change a bit during the last hour.
>>21849216>it wasn't bubbly on the surface. bubbling or rise didn't seem to change a bit during the last hour.Probably need it to ferment more, there should be lots of bubbles.
>>21847552Yeah just let it go longer, also did you let it cool down before cutting in
>>21849216still risinguess i gotta cut it off somewhere, to save some rising for oven
>>21849557Dont let it go for too long, do some stretch and folds and coil folds and see how it feels and looks.Surface should be smooth with bubbles and somewhat keep a boule shape.Good luck.
>>21849557>>21849567Or just do coil folds. Its gentler and wont degas the dough much, and gives it a nicer shape.
quite exciting>>21849567>>21849574coil folds were pretty easy
>>21849579idk, I feel like the surface could be smoother, do you see bubbles?Could maybe use more coil folds at 15 min intervals or something.But maybe its hard to tell from the angle of the photo.How long has the total proof been? Does the dough feel puffy and airy?
Have you noticed a difference in the feel of the dough from your previous attempts?
55min at 230. definitely one of the loafs of all time. >>21849585>>21849591bulk was 5h30min. it did feel pretty airy and easy to handle. we'll see about interior
>>21849634yeah looks promising, got a nice ear going on thereI'll check back in the morning, hopefully its successful
cooled for 90mincrumb seems fine to me, but there's certain gummyness still. guess im gonna cut the hydration a bit tomorrow, and fold & score the loaf better.
what do you all do with the extra "okay-but-not-good-enough" loaves when actively practicing? just chuck em in the trash, stock up on breadcrumbs?
>>21849751>cope and eat the trash bread directly as much as i am able>make trash-bread-savers like french toast or bread pudding>stock up on breadcrumbs if all else fails
>>21849751I make croutons with them. Most of the bread I make actually ends up as croutons.
>>21849708Looks good anon, how did it taste?I'd ferment longer as 5.5 hours is on the low end for room temp sourdough, especially if the temperature gets colder.Try and do 2-3 coil fold intervals at the end and see if you can get the dough smooth like the video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-6rskOq8I
>>21849708you're getting there, this looks pretty good
>>21849751You can roast it and add up to a certain percentage to your next loaf. If you go over, it will inhibit the rise.Crush it up to your desired texture, possibly add it to the soaked ingredients like linseed, buckwheat, etc so it doesn't suck up too much moisture out of your dough. Adds some nice texture and aroma to the crumb.
>>21850383based germanic baker. any chance you know the german name for this technique?
>>21850579That would be Altbrot (old bread) or Röstbrot (roast bread) added to the Quellstück (swell piece).Quellstück is the name for the cold soaked ingredients, Kochstück (cooked piece) are the ingredients which are boiled. The latter would for example be a bit of flour that's cooked in an amount of water and added the dough to improve it's water binding capability.
>>21850383>>21850635Gummy bread recycling method—genius breadmaking knowledge.
>>21850635Thanks much my friend, I've seen all of that used in recipes and referred to as german but never with the proper names. Always just bread crumbs, cold soaker, hot soaker.
>>21848510>getting cobs bread when terra breads is an option
>>21847552Yes, underbaked for sure, and only a lil underfermented. The crumb looks shiny and gummy, classic "needed more oven time" behavior. Fermentation happened, but didn't quite hit full chungus expansion. This loaf mostly just wanted 5-10 more minutes of bake and a full cool-down before slicing. Not overproofed, not a shaping fail, just slightly premature bread.Close to greatness. Let it bake. Let it become.
coil folds mid-bulk, shaped when the dough was smooth & jiggly.baking covered & underscored, just to see what happens. 70 % hydration.>>21850202had some toasted, bretty good bread.>>21850373hanks brah
>>21851044looks nice but motherfucker, got shittier crumb. think its underfermented still.
>>21850635brüh got his koch stück baking bread
>>21851044like other anons have mentioned you need to wait longer, your oven temp is fine but it's that your bread isn't reaching a proper internal temp out of the fridge soon enough likely due to it being winter, it's like trying to cook a cold steak that ends up raw in the middle. if you have a warmer spot to keep it that could work, or just wait longer after taking it out of the fridge (and you might want to wait a little longer before putting it in the fridge as well (post folds) since its cold in your house). Alternatively just skip cold fermentation all together for now and bake it the same day.
>>21851280the two recent ones are proofed in room temp, and my home's heated to 25cthink im fucking up final proofing, lets see tomorrow
>>21851300hm yeah that should be plenty warm enough, i was just going off of this pic: >>21851044 where the creases on top look like its collapsing on itself, ideally with your coil folds + fermentation the top should be relatively taut. good luck with your next batch, you might need a better shaping technique before putting it in the pan too.
>>21851326not OP here. I've actually never figured out how to properly shape a round loaf. my ovals are pretty sick because I found a great video demonstrating the technique, but I always just wing it with the round loaves.what's the proper technique?
>>21851134>>21851300How was the crumb shittier and what kind of crumb are you looking for? Keep in mind rye lacks strong gluten so the more rye you put in the dough the denser and smaller holes.If you want really fluffy crumb with big holes dont put too much rye and make a higher hydration dough.For your consideration, this is the Sourdough starter quantity predictive model from the pizzamaking forum. It shows you roughly how temperature and starter % affects the time for fermentation (>"Fermented" is subjectively defined as "the dough is ready to bake."https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
right last bread in this bread.back to 75 % hydration. dough look way different after doing proper folding. coil folded it into the tin.recipe is 320g ap flour, 12g wvg for 14% protein content, 8g rye flour for 13% rye content, 80g rye sourdough (25% of flour weight), 2,5% olive oil, 2% salt. also bit of caraway seeds & ground coriander, tasted nice.baking 250c 30min covered and 230c 30-40min uncovered until not too charred.>>21851739problem i think is the poor tunneling.cool pic wonder how much quicker my rye starter is.>>21851326shaping definitely a problem, i wanna just work right in either the bowl or tin.
>>21852666>cool pic wonder how much quicker my rye starter is.Ran your numbers through grok:>Overall, expect 20-40% faster fermentation with rye—doughs can rise noticeably quicker, and the starter itself often peaks/doubles in 4-6 hours after feeding, compared to 6-8+ hours for a pure AP starter.>At 25°C, your rye starter will make the whole process 25-40% faster overall compared to a 100% AP/wheat-based starter in the same recipe.Expected Total Fermentation Time >4.5-6.5 hours total from mixing/inoculating to baking-ready in the tin. Most batches in similar conditions (75% hydration, 20-25% rye starter inoculation, ~13% rye flour influence, high-protein base, folds during the first part) hit the target cues in 5-6 hours at 25°C. >Shorter end (around 4.5-5 hours): If your rye starter is super vigorous (peaks fast, lots of bubbles/activity), and the dough warms up nicely during folds. >Longer end (up to 6-6.5 hours): If the starter is a bit milder, or if the small oil/spices slow things slightly.According to the Sourdough starter quantity predictive model which I think is based on just wheat starter and flours, 77 F and 25% starter would take ~6 hours
wew that's pretty fucked up. worse rise than last time, i'm thinking overfermentation.
>>21849751Honestly if you can't make a half decent loaf after 3 or 4 tries you might be retarded
>>21851617Maybe search "how to shape a boule" on YouTube and watch one of the 10 thousand videos on the subject
>>21852782You're obsessing over proofing time. There's a huge acceptable window between under and over proofed.The mistake must beginners make is actually not kneading enough (or at all) and not shaping correctly. Also - not baking long enough, but scoring and not waiting to cool before cutting. You have big empty spaces here. Kneading could help avoid this. You also didn't score which means you have that hard shell on the top and can't cook long enough. The whole "no knead" trend is a blight. People are trying to do everything besides the obvious and just kneading their fucking bread
>>21852666Your biggest issue is the VWG, just swap to bread flour instead of AP and ditch the VWG. For such a stiff dough you also really need to be actually kneading it at the start like >>21852852 said, you should ideally be doing slap and folds & walk the dough until it's not sticky to the touch anymore. Also for a loaf pan 250C seems pretty high, I'd probably do it at 230C covered and then bake uncovered for longer at like ~220C. "No knead" CAN work but mostly on specific breads where overworking it can be an issue. With a dough this tough you'll really need to work the shit out of it at the start to make it not so dense and gummy like you've been getting.
>>21852852>>21852862ok gonna try slapping the thing, and then incorporating stuffing the dough into the refrigerator to bake it later when i get a decent loafwagmi breadlet bros
>>21852914good luck and keep trying! picrel I baked yesterday, unfortunately I ran out of bread flour and am snowed in so had to just use AP and they weren't able to rise quite enough to get a nicer crumb. This is my 5th or 6th attempt at baguettes recently and I still haven't made a batch I'm satisfied with, but like any other skill its a lot of trial and error.
>>21852845>bouleokay, that was the term that I was missing, cheers
>>21852782this shits under as fuck>>21852852>huge acceptable windowyeah, but also nah, proofing wrong is one of the most ubiquitous skill issues for noobs especially with sourdough. either ignoring it for too long or getting impatient and baking too fast. the most recent on here is underproofed by far and that's way worse than his scoring, structure, or any other shit. that said>The whole "no knead" trend is a blight. People are trying to do everything besides the obvious and just kneading their fucking breadyou're 100% right on this
>>21852852>>21853354>The whole "no knead" trend is a blight. People are trying to do everything besides the obvious and just kneading their fucking breadThis is irrational.The no-knead method is the tried and true ancient method utilizing high hydration dough and gentle folding techniques.Kneading high hydration doughs is undersirable, unnecessary, and nearly impossible.No-kneads are easy for beginners, requires minimal effort and minimal hands-on time, uses longer room temp fermentation for maximal nutritional benefits, is cleaner and less messy (you can use just one bowl to mix, proof, and fold/shape the dough).Overall its the ideal breadmaking method which exemplifies pragmatic minimalism philosophy.
>>21853442>easy for beginnersSure, in the sense that they don't learn anything because it's just making a bowl of goop and mostly ignoring it>high hydration doughWhat if you want to make something that isn't 90% hydration? You wouldn't be a One Loaf Man that only makes one thing every time right?>minimalismUnquestionably, yeah. I guess if you're just making survival bread and you don't care about doing anything more than the bare minimum to produce something edible then you're set for life with no knead. It's pretty much like if you told me boiling is the only cooking method you should ever learn though and pretending that is the best option for every possible ingredient and dish.
>>21853449>baking No-Knead bread magically makes it impossible to bake other types of breadYou are arguing for complexity for complexity's sake even when its unnecessary, takes more effort, and minimizes nutrition compared to no-knead.Everyone can bake what they want but to devalue the No-Knead method when its optimum in many respects is just silly.
>>21853466The point is>the trend is a blightWhich is true, people are trying to use it in applications where it isn't the best method. I did not say>there is no reason to no-knead everJust that it's way overused recently, mostly as a pinterest blog tier engagement tactic to make it seem "easier" even though half the time they end up jumping through such hoops to make their recipe fit the no-knead spec that it's either more work than it would have been to just fucking knead it, or produces an inferior product.
Higher hydration increased LAB activity greater nutritional enhancement in sourdough bread>Higher hydration favors the production and activity of Lactic Acid Bacteria (LAB) in sourdough starters and doughs. >Higher hydration environments provide better buffering capacity, allowing LAB to tolerate their own acidic byproducts and continue fermenting for longer periods. >Increased water content improves nutrient and mineral access for LAB, promoting their growth and metabolic activity. >Higher hydration supports a more favorable environment for LAB, leading to greater lactic acid production, which results in a milder, sweeter flavor profile in the final bread. >In contrast, stiffer (lower hydration) starters stress LAB, leading to increased acetic acid production and a sharper, more tangy flavor. >This effect is further influenced by temperature: warmer temperatures (25–30°C) combined with high hydration strongly favor lactic acid development. >Thus, if your goal is to enhance lactic acid production and achieve a milder sourdough flavor, increasing hydration is a key strategy.
>>21853588thanks for the tip, i want it Fucking Sour As Shit otherwise i wouldn't be making sourdough so i'll keep it down at about 70%, dump some oil in there, and ferment entirely cold
>>21853442The ancient method is kneading you retard. This no-knead shit is a modern phenomenon brought on by social media and lazy retards
>>21853621Not a genius.>The claim that no-knead bread is a "modern phenomenon brought on by social media and lazy retards" is factually incorrect and dismissive of both historical baking practices and the science behind gluten development. >No-knead bread is not a modern invention. The method relies on long fermentation times to develop gluten passively, a process that predates mechanical kneading. Historically, many traditional breads were made using extended rise times, especially in cultures where time was more abundant than labor-saving tools. The modern popularity of no-knead bread, particularly after Jim Lahey’s 2006 New York Times feature on his no-knead recipe, brought the method into the mainstream, but the technique itself is ancient. Wet doughs with long fermentation periods—hallmarks of no-knead bread—were common before industrialized milling and rapid-rise yeast. >The no-knead method has also been celebrated for making bread baking accessible to people with physical limitations, such as arthritis or reduced hand strength. It allows individuals who might struggle with traditional kneading to still enjoy homemade bread. Describing this adaptation as being for "lazy retards" is not only scientifically inaccurate but also disrespectful to those who benefit from inclusive techniques.
>>21853626>disrespectful to those who benefit from inclusive techniqueskek thanks gptanon, no doubt its the way to go if you're retarded
>>21853626>popularized in 2006 - coinciding with the advent of social mediaDude - read what you quoted.Just because making bread without kneading was something some people have done historically, doesn't refute that the modern popularity is a phenomenon. It's absurd that people like you try to imply that not kneading bread is the traditional, "ancient" way. You are a liar
>>21853588>>21853626are you just quoting chat gpt?
>>21853762i mean just mixing the goop and forgetting about it for a while is the "most ancient" or "original" method for making bread since it would have been used before the technique of kneading was developed, which itself coincided with advancements in agriculture specifically stronger glutinous wheat varieties. afaik kneading is a Roman Empire invention. kneading then took over entirely for another ~2000 years until a 2006 new york times article
>>21855022Holy damn. You’re absolutely retarded, either physically or mentally. You want to disregard basic advancements in the production of something to cling to a shitty form. It has been a practice for the history of bread.
