>AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH YOU DID MY JOB BETTER THAN ME I'M GONNA LE HECKIN THROW A TANTRUMTop tier Superman story
>>150091251How are you this retarded?
>>150091251>Top tier Superman storyYes.
>>150091251would do the same if some brit was trying to take my job honestly
>>150091251>the strongest should make the rules>WAIT NO NOT LIKE THAT, THIS ISN'T FAIR SUPERMAN AIEEEEEEEEE
>>150091518Brits have been taking over your country and you do jackshit about it
>>150091251>surprise! i'm just messing with you! i'm better than you and did your thing better than you! and you lost your powers! go to jail!
>>150091543>s not fair guvna! whys yous gots ta be so bloody mean ta me? i jus was jokin matey plees don hurt me no mo!
>"might makes right!">ok dumbass, I'm mightier now what>"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
>>150091545>Superman proves that "might makes right" is wrong by being the strongest and beating up the other guys
>>150091561>turn ideology onto its proponents to show them how devastating its effects areMakes sense to me
>>150091561He shows that Manchester Black and the Elite didn't actually care about their philosophy they just wanted a cheap justification to be cunts to everyone.There are very few villains who espouse "violence is the ultimate authority" and then actually accept when someone else is better at it than them thus making them correct. You could definitely make a less strawmanny superman story with it using an anti-hero who's fully aboard the violence train but that'd take cleverer writing than what comic book writers can produce.
>>150091658Yes, the elite became strawmen because Kelly didn't know how to actually argue against punitive justice or capital punishment besides making the authority unjust, arbitrary, retarded, and needlessly edgy. At a certain point the comic is just about trying to shit on the aesthetic of edgy anti-heroes by pretending they're all just bigger villains than they actually are.How are you so retarded that you lack the reading comprehension to understand when i'm agreeing with you?
>>150091658>lose the argument instantly>shift goal postsConcession accepted
>>150091685I tagged both posts to reply separately, then I wanted to use a reaction pic and figured I'd reply in a separate post, and then I forgot I had both there and hit post. Sorry.>>150091707Nigger, you literally didn't do anything. You don't win an argument by making the opponent a strawman that cries then you claim you "won".
>>150091731You went from complaining about a logical inconsistency in turning an ideology onto its own proponent to then complaining about the portrayal of the proponents being strawmen. You literally lost immediately and moved to a different argument
>>150091658I mean they don't have wojaks saved to their computer so I think they're good
>>150091758If the story uses an ideology and its counterargument is to show the holder of said ideology be a stoo-peed cwybaby then it's not a refutation of the ideology you dumb nigger. We are talking about the story's handling of the ideology, and how its "solution" isn't a refutation. Nobody's moving goalposts, you're just looking for excuses to weasel yourself out of talking about it logically. If I want to show the superiority of position A over B, then have Character X use B on Y so that B pisses and shits himself, I haven't proven A works. >>150091762No, instead they have Superman dolls they touch themselves to every night.
>>150091783No retard, none of that is relevant to the post I actually responded to >>150091545>>150091561>If I want to show the superiority of position A over B, then have Character X use B on Y so that B pisses and shits himself, I haven't proven A works. You've proven that B doesn't work in that case which is sufficient. Unless you're a giga cucked retard who thinks "well I may be getting shit on, but I guess I have to be logically consistent" is a tenable position Superman didn't prove A was better than B. He proved B was fucking retarded. And so are you
>>150091783>>150091658>>150091545Kill yourself wojack poster.
>>150091946>entire argument falls down to "no u"Nigger, you're failing even by your own standards. Superman literally proved that might makes right. If that's your entire fixation, whether the original idea is proven to work or not, then Superman legitimately proved MB's point. >b-but that would be a MEANIE world!Well gee, then that's moving the goalposts too based on your way of thinking, dipshit. Because we've now moved past whether the idea works as a testament, and are discussing how it is received by the characters. Your stand-in being the heckin Chad doesn't negate that fact. Superman won by force, ergo he disproved his own point. Moron.
>>150091251>>AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH YOU DID MY JOB BETTER THAN ME I'M GONNA LE HECKIN THROW A TANTRUM>Top tier Superman storyyes
Superman made Black his bitch in this film, motherfucker gave him a pimp back hand and all.
>>150091251youre missing the point if your take away was "waaahhh supermans a hypocrite, he used might makes right to prove it doesn't work"Superman wasn't arguing against it, he was dismantling the edge lord bullshit manchester black was pushing by showing him and his buddies a taste of their own medicine. Not so fun being killed off painfully by someone far stronger then you, is it?
>>150091251>Top tier Superman storyAgreed, one of the most cathartic Super Hero stories I have seen.
>>150091251>Top tier Superman storyyes.
>>150092258Supersisters......
We'rent the Elite kidnapping a sentient alien to use it as their base of operations?
>>150091251I never got this story, Superman is showing the Elite why heroes shouldn't be edgy assholes by chimping out in the middle streets. Even if he was just pretending how many people do you think saw him doing what he did and suddenly became more Luthor like?
>>150092538Luthor likes are retards in the first place, you cannot plan your course of action around them
>>150092538If I was a citizen and saw that guy hurl a car my way, I'd be pissed even if one of his robots saved me. I'd rather he just didn't deal with the theatrics and save people.
>>150091251>might makes right old man >;)>oh fuck he's mightier
>>150091639>>150091600>turn ideology onto its proponents to show them how devastating its effects are>He shows that Manchester Black and the Elite didn't actually care about their philosophy they just wanted a cheap justification to be cunts to everyone.He's only able to do that by being more powerful, which proves that might makes right.
>>150092266Yes but its established, like, halfway or 2/3rds of the way through. Maybe it was always intended but it comes across as the equivalent of making the Elite kick a puppy because the reader/watcher was liking them too much.
>>150092709Yes except that manchester black never actually believed in it, he only believed that he should be able to do whatever he wanted and pussed out like a bitch the moment someone turned it around on him.
>>150092258
>>150091545>>150091658>I'm a straight white male>I beat up ugly people and those who don't believe in my reddit tier heckin wholesomeness>I'm not a fascist power fantasy though >batman is worse i swear
>>150093125superman would never say this, he doesn't watch TFS only like a secondary
>>150091251It's also inconsequential because just 2 years earlier Superman had no problem with Ultraman doing the dirty work
>>150093131>>I'm not a fascist power fantasy though>>batman is worse i swearI mean, a rich guy who sees the world with the black-and-white morality of an 8 year old that only needs his wealth in order to beat the shit out of criminals with impunity and adoration from the public sounds like a fascist wet dream.
>>150091520Okay but how does this answer why they shouldn't kill all these supervillains who kill thousands and escape jail in a day
>>150091520Doesn't really work when Superman continually allows the world to be a worse place by letting super powered murderers off the hookSome guys like Lex deserve to be lobotomized at the very least
>>150093218That's why they had to changed the plot to the elite becoming full dictators and taking over nations. Killing repeat mass murderers made TOO MUCH sense so they couldn't refute it
>>150093125But massive collateral damage by fighting in the middle of a city is like the foundation of every single superman fight. Goku is a hick who does hit fightan out in the country or on other people's planets.
>>150093301Elite was based on the Authority, who went after world leaders
>>150091251>We have the power to stop evil people which makes it our moral responsibility to use lethal force against them to ensure the greater good regardless of any laws.Vs>I have the power to stop evil people but I don't have the moral right to use lethal force (unless as a matter of last resort) and it is up to others to decide their fate according to the law.The dream offered by Superman is that there is a better way than killing and that people can always choose to be better. The reality presented by The Elite is that they don't.
>>150093732And that's why capeshit comics suffer, because killing lunatic mass murderers actually is justified. They would do better not making movies that directly address this contradiction, but Superman in particular suffers because being a gigachad who refuses to kill is his entire gimmick. At least other characters like Batman can make interesting stories inside the pacifist limitation.
>>150091251The only thing The Elite arguably handled better was Atomic Skull because of the changes the story made. If Superman can come up with magical means to depower people, why is Atomic Skull still running around?
>>150093125
>>150091251It is an old superman tradition, they did one with Captain Marvel way back.I am surprised that they never did one featuring anime pastiches.
Why did everyone in xitter and /co/ decided to start hating on this comic just as I'm about to get my physical copy of it
>>150093958>why is Atomic Skull still running aroundBecause he was able to be used for free energyThe Elite, despite clearly at least having better morals and ethics than Atomic Skull, deserved to be made into powerless losers for the rest of their lives because Superman knows better
>>150093968/thread
>>150093218>Okay but how does this answer why they shouldn't kill all these supervillains who kill thousands and escape jail in a dayHow does it not. How can you be this stupid?
>>150093968When was the last time Superman fought someone for fun?
>>150091783>>150092709Manchester Black spent the whole story trying to get Superman to do things his way. It's not stated outright but it's a given that he thinks Superman will always agree with him on who deserves to die. he doesn't really believe in "might makes right", he believes he is right and the "might" needs to get with the program. But when Superman makes it apparent that he sees the Elite as a threat necessitating lethal force, Manchester folds.
>>150091783wow this reply chain is rancid
>>150091251No.
>>150091251What I don't like about this story is that Superman didn't win because he was morally superior and stood his ground; he won because he lowered himself to the same level as the elite.God, not even the citizens oppose the elite; they support them!All of this makes Superman look like an idiot who gets angry because someone else is doing their job better.Superman is like that public employee who only does the minimum possible, but gets angry when someone better replaces him.
>>150097622It would have been better if the citizens of Metropolis had united against the Elite's beliefs.>Superman: See? Maybe they're not as strong as us, but like me, true justice lives in their hearts.
Superman gave the Elite multiple chances to stop and they kept going. He could easily have slaughtered them all but he decided to spare them and teach them a lesson instead. the Elite were quickly spiraling into becoming a group of Super-Villains instead of operating within reason.
>>150097622>What I don't like about this story is that Superman didn't win because he was morally superior and stood his ground; he won because he lowered himself to the same level as the elite.That's the point. Good lord you're an idiot. He was giving them a taste of their own medicine. He was showing why it was wrong for to do that. He also had a bunch of robots on hand making sure shit didn't go to far. How does this go over your heads?
>>150091251i have no idea why the capeshit retards love that story. anyway, the new film is probably the best Superman story and you're mentally retarded and brown and indian and a troon if you disagree.
>>150093968>SUPERMAN MUST NEVER LOOK MEAN
>>150098024>That's the point. Good lord you're an idiot. He was giving them a taste of their own medicine.No, he's proving that the elite is right and that the only reason terrorist attacks still happen is because Superman is the strongest idiot.
>>150098024>He was giving them a taste of their own medicine.If you lower yourself to their level, you are only proving them right.
>>150091251One of the many shitty stories that "hope-filled" Super Secondaries love to consume. No wonder people think he's boring.
>>150093125Hypothetically if Kara was keeping an eye on the city for a few hours and they were able to go to, I don't know, Mars or something where collateral damage wouldn't be an issue, would Superman be opposed to a quick sparring match?
>>150098343Not really. You're making a point about why the rules of engagement are what they are. Its why there's a taboo in the criminal world about killing cops, because the cops come down WAY harder when you do. No one bitches at the cops for "sinking to their level".
>>150098290No he's proven them wrong by showing them there's always a bigger fish and that it's scary as hell when you don't follow justice.>>150098343You're both idiots.
>>150098732>No he's proven them wrong by showing them there's always a bigger fish and that it's scary as hell when you don't follow justice.When Darkseid or Doomsday kick your ass, it is still pretty scary when your trying to follow justice.
>>150098343If someone holds up a mirror to you and your actions and you start complaining, then you were wrong to begin with
Every "should superheroes kill" debate devolves into trying to justify why superman or batman should personally murder magic hitler, space hitler, alternate dimension hitler, etc. Constantly trying to invent a hitler so evil that superman must be morally obligated to murder him. Yet the debate never asks why humanity doesn't execute the criminals the superheroes capture and turn over to them. Like it's just fundamentally a non starter when human society at large had decided in these superhero stories that the death penalty is unacceptable no matter how severe the crime, nor how inevitable their eventual escape is, nor how utterly infinitesimal the chances of reform are.As long as that's the case, you aren't actually arguing "Should superheroes kill?" you're arguing "Should superheroes defy the established will of all of humanity to commit murder?"Superman vs the Elite honestly sucks for the same reason. It doesn't even seem to believe the argument it's trying to champion. All it really has is "but superman would be scary if he was evil" Why would a superman willing to kill hitler suddenly turn into the joker? Is that one moral brick holding up the entirety of his psyche?
Manchester Black did nothing wrong except from being from Manchestert.Scouser
>>150098996>onstantly trying to invent a hitler so evil that superman must be morally obligated to murder him.Why would anyone need to invent anyone the Joker is right there
>>150099047Honestly, after giving it 2 seconds of thought, Superman was definitely in the right to not want a British person to direct anyone on morals and ethics
>>150099090Haters gonna hate, and Ulster is British
>>150098996>why humanity doesn't execute the criminals the superheroes capture and turn over to them.we already did it, batman always stops anyone who tries to kill the joker.
>>150099050The funny clown gangster getting turned into some kind of cosmic force of primordial evil is the gayest shit imaginable
>>150098970But the mirror is also wrong because it only does the same thing as me.
>>150091251John Walker and Manchester are very similar. Both characters who are factually correct, but the story demonizes as evil and unfairly portrays as evil or ridiculous strawmen in order to prop the designated hero of the story up. Superman in Manchesters case, Falcon in USAgents case.
>Movie flat out says:>"What if might makes right gets turned on you?>"Why would it? I'm the good guy!"Seems pretty straightforward.
>>150098996Some day I want to write a Watchmen-style deconstruction of the no-kill rule that cuts it down to the bone and shows why it's such a stupid standard to hold even good men to. Is Seal Team 6 suddenly fascist because they killed Osama Bin Laden?
>>150099236The fact is manchester was right. Now that he's killed Atomic Skull, his victims can rest easier knowing he can't kill anyone else ever again. But the story doesn't address that point. Superman just says 'fuck you. You're evil for killing him. I'm right. Your wrong. end of discussion'. Shouldn't Superman care more for the victiim of a murder than the murderer?
>>150099250>Is Seal Team 6 suddenly fascist because they killed Osama Bin Laden?Hw was only killed to preserve his CIA handlers and collaberators.
>>150099214That's probably when the initial offender should have their come-to-Jesus moment and stop doing the behavior that caused a mirror to be raised in the first place
>>150091418Him being this corrupted evil was pretty morbid ngl.
Lobotomizing a guy was a bit much though
>>150093218That anon already answered the question. The strongest makes the rules, and the Justice League is the strongest, so they make the rules. Or, is that not okay now? Suddenly, its not about power, but how you use the power? Faggots.
>>150091251>this fucking thread againYou ever get tired of everyone telling you how fucking retarded you are?
>>150099270I think its more about if you have to kill Atomic Skull. If you've defeated him and now he's no harm, then taking his life means you aren't "killing" him, you're murdering him. You're stronger than him and decide his life is worth less than yours or others, and so you kill him.Oh, gee, isn't that exactly what Atomic Skull or other villains think? So they're right? You labor to validate them? Why do you care more about validating villains than getting justice?If you clashed with Skull and destroyed him on impact, no one would care. The asshole was trying to kill you, its justified. If a villain is weak and goes "I lose! I surrender!" and you go "no, I decide you have to die!" then all of your claims about justice goes out of the window.
>>150101668all that falls apart with repeat offenders
>>150102595No, its the same thing. You fight a repeat offender and kill him, and that's his fault. You kill him when he's weak and feeble and can be detained without further incident and you're literally a murderer. You argue "but he needed to die! I had to circumvent the legal process because I decided my will was more important", and you realize you're not actually the good guy or helping anyone.When Lex Luthor is fucking shit up for everyone because he believes he's should, how do you tell him "no"? "Stop doing it because I don't want you to do it?" You can't wax poetic about justice because you don't believe in it. If you've identified bad behaviors, you can't save the day by using those bad behaviors. It makes no sense.
>>150091658>>150091545>>150091251Hello lex
>>150098944It's funny that you say that because Darkseid and Doomsday are the sorts of threats Superman is willing to kill to put down.
>>150102686yeah, let the weak feeble guy go, the he repeat offends again, then he cries when he's weak and feeble, walks it off, then repeat offends again.
>>150103049You have to take it up with the justice system in that case. Or kill him while he's actively fighting you.I only think its silly when heroes actively hold back while enabling villains to do harm unrestricted. Deciding the fight is over because you won is more cool than saying "I'm a big guy who can do anything, except practice restraint."
>>150097622>>150091251This shit only happens in comic book world. American prisons would've given all of these mass murder villains lethal injections or firing squad already.
>>150103431Only after the prisoners spend 10 years waiting for it while the prison sucks up tax payer money
>>150102686What's your response to someone who values security over justice? Someone willing to finish off a neutralized enemy to prevent re-offense, and/or allow an offender to get away unpunished if it appears they have no intention of returning and going after them is the riskier option?
>>150097622>What I don't like about this story is that Superman didn't win because he was morally superior and stood his ground; he won because he lowered himself to the same level as the elite.The reality is you have to sometimes stoop to their level to spank them back into line. The difference is the other party doesn't rely on having to constantly stoop low, or fall back on it constantly, and if they do, they have a different set of morals and boundaries and reasonings for it. The Elite were just assholes, but they did have a half-a-point about dictators and those in power, and those with ultimate power, but as others have said, they didn't follow their own beliefs and instead just used it as an excuse to harm anyone they didn't like.>All of this makes Superman look like an idiot who gets angry because someone else is doing their job better.Idk, it was a ploy at the end of the day, but it left me wondering if Superman actually reveled in letting go and the whole interaction made him crack a bit. From the Justice League series at the end when he fights the reincarnated Darkseid he remarks how he's so tired of living in a world where he has to constantly be overly careful, and that he lives in a world made of paper, then he just starts smashing Darkseid. Being an idealized Boy Scout has it's own problems and requires others, like Batman or the government to take over and to do the dirty work. Superman is more of a symbol of a hero than actually being one. High ideals is what people should aim for and keep their compass pointed towards. The reality is that underhanded tactics work devastatingly well.
>>150103725>someone who values security over justice?>"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" >Meanwhile in Europe, and the UK>Draconian hyper "security" that supersedes justice and reason>1984 Orwellian shit levels of overreaching government>Oi, little gurl, you tried to defend yourself from a minority rapist wiff an knife, that's a hate crime mate!>~~~someone who values security over justice?~~~They can get bent and fuck off.
>>150103403still retarded when the problem can be solved. if a guy breaks into my house and begs me not to shoot him, he's not going to convince me not to shoot him
>>150091251The entire arc should be called teaching a lesson he used their own morality against them , you cannot be more blind and missing the point that badAll "The Elite" did was escalate bullshit to bigger levels. Just look at what he says at the end
>>150102595but thats entire on the system
>>150103860then you go to jail for excessive force
>>150103892Aren't the super heroes PART of the system? I mean, if they weren't part of it, they'll be in jail for excessive force and vigilantism.
>>150103949being a vigilant literally makes you not part of the system you retarded mongrel
>>150103933Only if the prosecution can prove that's the exact way it went down. That's also assuming we're talking about an area that's pro criminal, and wouldn't overlook the death of a known problem.
>>150104031>Only if the prosecution can prove that's the exact way it went downthose bullets on their back is proof enough
>>150104042Where did anon specify that he'd do back shots in this scenario?
>>150103969Then why in the FUCK would they give a shit about the system? They aren't vigilante if they are willing to just let evil fester, they are just bootlegged enforcers of the government at that point.
nothing is more childish than arguing how someone being strong needs to bully the weakespecially about a fictional character whose core value is doing what is rightit always seems to be the school shooter types that think thishmm puzzling indeed
>>150091251can you just talk about the movie like normal person you fucking faggot
>>150104107>can you just talk about the movie like normal person you fucking faggotSure.>Superman sexes the Elite instead of stripping them of their powers
>>150104099>dealing with supervillains is bullying the weakHoly retard
>>150104137>murdering subdued aliens is the only strat you should default to
>>150091251What is the image from?
>>150097622But he didn't, nobody was killed and he made his point to the world by making them genuinely confront a world as hopeless as the Elite promised it would be but never actually creating that world. I don't get how people are like "Superman stopped to their level" as if Superman didn't beat the shit out of villains constantly.Superman doesn't like the rhetoric, callousness, or mercilessness they showed, though the comic does also bring up the idea he's jealous but makes a point to disprove that. Like seriously they killed a whole standing army after they'd been neutralized. Villains are one thing but most of those are just dudes with families. Then the whole raining acid on the families of terrorists. Superman isn't mad they're doing his job better, he's mad they're just a bunch of self-righteous psychos who escalte things and attack innocents because their cynicism and unaccountability makes them believe they're just making tough decisions....which is still bullshit because they don't even have any reservations or regret for any of their actions they're just flippant and callous the whole damn time.>>150104188Superman vs the Elite.
>>150104185>the onlywhen has superman ever stopped being a bitch and done what was necessary the argument doesn't work when these caped bitches have extremists no kill rules
>>150103860Anon did you read the comic you are shitting on like a retard?
>>150104241Your dumbass never read Death Of Superman, where he fought Doomsday to the death no holding back?Hell, do you read any Superman comics? How much entertainment can you get from a thread discussing some of the most well known Superman stories if you never even read any them, or at least seen any adaptations.
>>150104052When his gay ass started browsing 4chan.
>>150103828>"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"Libertarian ass quote. Society as a concept demands the sacrifice of personal liberty for the good of the collective. What Orwell considered the divide between normal and oppressive oversight is an arbitrary line. If you want unrestricted personal freedom it’s yours, but don’t complain when you’re dying of preventable disease in your mud hut.
I feel like everyone complains about this story because they don’t understand Superman’s point. He’s not saying that might DOESNT make right, he’s saying it SHOULDNT make right. You’d have to be completely naive to argue that the strong don’t dictate policy. But he’s saying that if the strong aren’t empathetic it’s bad for everyone but the strongest person. By bullying the elite Superman flips their power trip on them, exposing them as hypocrites. They don’t actually believe in the law of the jungle, they just wanted to make the rules.
>>150104434Not a Libertarian, and you can lick the boot you love so much to the point it's permanently shoved up your un-free ass. >but don’t complain when you’re dying of preventable disease in your mud hut.Seems that's slowly devolving into Europe as we speak with their draconian hyper "security and safety" laws that supersede liberty and justice. Streets full of feces, trash, and violence, despite having the "most" secure and security and lack of freedoms of the Western world. Wrong think and wrong speech, but you can pretend having a hyper secure society is a good idea when you're not allowed to defend yourself or keep a weapon on you, despite the world never truly being safe nor secure.
>>150103860If they have any evidence the guy was willing to leave but instead you murdered him, you'll go to jail. You ended up proving my point in the end because you won't kill him for your safety, you'd kill him because you can. He upset you, he broke into your house, so even though you were totally safe and the guy turned out to be a coward, you murdered him. Your judgement on right and wrong can't be trusted in that case.>>150103725>What's your response to someone who values security over justice?Those kinds of people end up tolerating the worst shit. How far does "security" go when it starts with "the guy wasn't harming anyone, but we killed him so he wouldn't have the chance to harm anyone again"?
>>150091251I love the underlying message. British writers don't get heroes. And they don't.
*Mamogs Supercuck in the court of Justice and the court of public opinion*
>>150104529Milligan gets it.
>>150104515> un-free ass.We’re all unfree is my point. As soon as you’ve opted into society you’re making concessions to your personal freedom. So saying something like “you deserve oppression and violence if you don’t subscribe to my extremely narrow, extremely arbitrary opinion on what freedom is” is naive and cruel. >unsolicited bong political soapboxing I don’t care
>>150104067>Then why in the FUCK would they give a shit about the system?Because they're not fucking retarded psychopaths. The fact that they're already towing the line is enough reason on it's own not to fully cross it. I swear this wasn't hard or complicated for decades and decades and then all of a sudden you're autistic generation can't process super hero funny books.
>>150102686>and you're literally a murderer>mass murdering villain breaks out of prison like its a punch clock affair>kills more people>you're a murderer for preventing thisor, better yet>you're a murderer for actually getting justice for his past victims instead of making a whole lot of flash and no bangThere is no justice in allowing a murderer, by choice or by gross negligence, remain alive because you want to virtue signal about how much you waste trying to 'rehabilitate' them by stealing 30 years of their life away and making them live with the consequences.
>>150104579>“you deserve oppression and violence if you don’t subscribe to my extremely narrow, extremely arbitrary opinion on what freedom is"And neither will hyper security ever make you truly secure. Europe is the prime example of this fallacy over and over again. Too much "security" in either the incompetent form of the current system, or just straight up tyranny. To the point it's a crime to own a weapon and/or defend yourself, despite the government not being able to do either for you, despite taking their rights away to do so.>unsolicited bong political soapboxing And yet they are having the worst of it with pre-Orwellian levels of speech and thought crimes, to the point you can't defend yourself from rapists, but sure, they have an "extremely" secure society. No weapons or guns allowed, such safety and security! Kinda like the bullshit "zero tolerance" policy in US schools where the victim is punished for defending themselves from a bully or aggressor. So much security! Doubtful you are even a real person, or a shill or bot, because the logic is self-evident unless you are pushing a bullshit agenda of "you need security, now hand over your means to defend yourself, we'll do that for you" yeah, no, hardly any government can do that save for when it comes to war as defense. Government sucks ass at civil and internal defense, especially on a personal level.
>>150104612the real issue is that "makes you think" comics want their cake and to eat it too. they want be gritty and real and to talk about the moral implications of extrajudicially killing villains, preventing future tragedies, but leave out the actual obvious reasons to not do that in the real world. comic book villains don't stay in jail, they don't reform, they're not wrongly accused. at its very core this line of thought it flawed, because its only half assedly applying real world logic.
>Be stronger than everyone>Haha yeah might makes right I can do anything I want even kill for the greater good>One guy is stronger than me and starts killing me and my friends >WHAAAT NOOOOO YOU CANT USE YOUR POWER TO KILL ME PLEAAASE THAT’S WROOOONGThe British and the bloodthirsty cannot comprehend why this is pathetic and shameful
>>150104462You don't need to believe might makes right to believe supervillains should be killed
>>150091251No-kills rules are retarded, but having one is in-character for Superman.
>>150102840Lex would definitely browse through 4chan.
>>150091257It's ragebait to get a topic off the ground.I've done it a few times too, sadly.
Mob Psycho answered "might makes right" half a decade ago.
>>150091545I know this is bait but the point is that even if you have the power to kill someone, you shouldn't do it. Manchester Black talked a big game until he experienced the pain he was inflicting on others. Murder isn't the only or best solution
>>150106398>is that even if you have the power to kill someone, you shouldn't do itYou should, especially when they're scum like Atomic Skull of whom one of his victims directly requested he be killed.
>>150102595Exactly, It wasn't like Manchester was killing a genuinely repentant villain. Atomic Skull had killed before and would have killed again if he had gone back to prison. If he had killed Two-Face, Toy Man, Mr Freeze or even Harley there might be grounds for argument. >>150101668>If a villain is weak and goes "I lose! I surrender!" and you go "no, I decide you have to die!" then all of your claims about justice goes out of the window.What if it had been your family members who had been killed by a Supervillain because both Superman and the law refuse to kill him and keep him from hurting more innocent people? Have some goddamn empathy for the victims of the Supervillain.Dead murderers don't repeat their offenses.
>>150106328I think most people in Marvel and DC just want to be able to walk down the street without worrying that Jokers going to kill them with poison laughing gas. Or that Zsasz is going to slice their head off. Or that the latest battle between Superman and Mongol or Zod or Doomsday is going to level their city block and kill their entire family. Might may not always make right. But it sure keeps the streets clean. Just look at Singapore.
>>150091639>There are very few villains who espouse "violence is the ultimate authority" and then actually accept when someone else is better at it than them thus making them correct.And this is why Senator Armstrong is great
>>150106328>Mob Psycho answeredImagine taking anything from a hack like ONE seriously
>>150106917Supermans entire argument/plan to scare the elite straight would have failed if Manchester rather than breaking down and crying like a bitch had instead said."Alright. Fairs fair. Live by the sword and die by the sword. I stand by what I said about might making right. What are you waiting for Superman? Do it."
>>150106909I mean looking at it practically, they are right if they win the fight.But Might Makes Right doesn't work because no society can function when taking it to it's extreme.You might argue that you never asked to be born or to follow your countries laws, but there really is nothing keeping you here if that notion really bothers you. Plenty of places off the grid to live.
>>150091251They can dress it up in as much ironic and philosophical salad dressing as they want. This story is just another way to enable negligence by superpowered individuals not killing their misanthropic and homicidal superpowered supervillains It's insidious like that.
>>150106966But Manchester didn't actually believe that. You're arguing that Superman would lose if Manchester was replaced with a completely different person.And any idiot in Manchester's position can see that it takes one bad day or one lucky break for another bloke for you to be on the weak end so might makes right can't be a practical way to run anything by being so volatile. The strong cannot be strong every second of every day.
>>150106966This is true. Kind of reminds me of Louis CK's Good Will Hunting bit Superman pretended to kill the man's friends so if he just embraced it, what then? Superbitch gets exposed and we can't have that
>>150106966>Good job superman>You guaranteed that the status quo will go on, at least for a little while. People will keep dying to super powered criminals.>But at least I'll leave a worthy successor>You Superman.> You do what you think it's best for the world, disregarding things as laws. And if you have to kill people like us, then so be it >Deep down, we are kindred spirits, you and I
>>150106929>Imagine taking anything from a hack like ONE seriously
>>150106966No one who isn't a psychopath would think like this though. Dying for a cause, sure, but what schizo would want to die over an argument.
>>150092258Either could work on the Justice League or the Z warriors.
>>150107048>what schizo would want to die over an argument.Oh Buddy. Look at social media nowadays.
>>150107033Well. We know you you voted for.Really that's what it comes down to with Superman Vs The Elite.If you're right wing you disagree with the anti-death penalty message, if you're leftist you agree with it. Just like that argument about gun control between Flash/Mr Terrific and Superman in Injustice.
>>150106827It doesn't really work with superheroes since they're practically demigods but irl killing should be off the table for people who surrender/aren't a threat.The point of killing being wrong is no one should be doing it without a good reason.
>>150107066I did say schizo. The average, non schizo joe won't just throw his life away over no no words.
>>150107017>But Manchester didn't actually believe that.If Manchester had been written well and consistently and not as a strawman to make Superman look better like John Walker In Falcon & Winter Soldier, he'd have won the argument.
>>150107080>The point of killing being wrong is no one should be doing it without a good reason.Permanently making sure the walking nuclear disaster can't cause more property damage or loss of life isn't a good reason?Nobody bitched when All Might killed his bad guys. But Superman is barred from doing it because. . . .?
>>150107093Having flaws/being a hypocrite isn't a strawman, what you described in that post is someone who is batshit.No one likes being under the heel for it's own sake.
>>150107132Well yea, anon, I already said the point is nonsense in comic books/fiction. 99% of the reason why they don't kill villians anyway is because then you can't tell fun stories with them anymore and brand recognition is necessary for something as merchandise driven as comics are.Someone who can blow up the world with their pinky finger obviously has to die, but then no more stories.But fiction was always supposed to be a lens to examine political ideologies and how they relate to the real world.
>>150091251You didn't watch it/read it. The Elite were Criminals.They were even worse in the comics where they were deliberatley trying to provoke Superman so they can defame him and threatening to kill the families of Criminals.
>>150107132Who the fuck is All Might?
>>150107208so it's a QUINTUPLE hypocrisy is what you're saying
>>150107298Poo Eater.
>>150107077>If you're left wing you agree with an anti death message>Meanwhile no real world messages found of this. Uhh, sure anon.
>>150107250Superman but Shonen
>>150099250I believe even Osama had the right to a fair trial
>>150106328>Don't use your natural talents because uhhhh just don't okay?!
The great failure of this movie is not addressing what happens when a guy Superman locks up escapes again and kills 10 people.
>>150099314>Hw was only killed to preserve his CIA handlers and collaberators.Pretty much.
>>150108811You think Mob doesn't use his natural talents?
>superheroes kill their villains >then thiefs>then bullies >then normal people that cause problems >then we are full totalitarian Mmmm soo deep and mature...
Whats with all the people in the thread thinking that Atomic Skull or The Joker would be killed off and stay dead if only Superman did some murdering?Its weird to act this upset that the writers don't kill off popular villains. If they wanted that they could write plenty of ways that don't require Superman getting his hands bloodly like that.
>>150106966>>150107025>>150106966The biggest problem is "might makes right" fags would never believe this. Even people in this thread who believes dangerous criminals should be killed will kick and scream and cry when its their turn. Its human nature to preserve their own life; I'd genuinely argue EVERYONE would do it. Yes, 100% of people, when given the opportunity to save their own life or die, will try to save their own life. I've seen videos of people who willingly sign up for suicide struggle in the end because "oh my god, I'm dying" is an overwhelming thought to have.Oh, and Superman wouldn't be defeated by Black saying that. Superman would smack him again and say "you're goddamn right. Might makes right, and I'm stronger than you, so I decide whether you live or die. You only live now because I don't want to kill you, so I'm putting your little bitch ass in prison."Black would have to know that, every day he draws breath, its not because he wants to. Its because Superman allowed him to because Superman IS stronger than him, so Superman IS his boss. He could endeavor to be stronger than Supes if he has the stones to try, but Manchester Black isn't exactly that brave. Not really.
>>150109650The anime really pushes that Mob relying on his psychic power is bad because he didn't work hard for, which is kinda bullshit.
>>150107723I keep seeing this page and keep asking to myself what was the point.
>>150110039>imagine if a decent law abiding citizen were treated the same as the degenerate criminals!Bruh, you're operating on a false pretense here. The innocent won't be targeted, because, get this, they're innocent.
>>150110077There is a difference between being talented and using your talent being bad and being talented and believing that your talent makes you superior to everyone else while neglecting everything of yourself that doesn't have to do with your talent.
>>150098996>the established will of all of humanity to commit murder?The arbitrary nonsense enforced by the state is not the 'established will of humanity'. If you think government is a legitimate entity that represents the 'will of the people' you're psychotic.
>>150093125You can tell the person that made this is a buttmad autist.
>>150095825Does he not do like regular sparring with say Supergirl or other similarly powerful metas?
>>150111736And yet, despite Gotham City being extremely corrupt, not once was notorious cop killer the Joker being shot "while trying to escape".
>>150091251>I'M GONNA LE HECKIN THROW A TANTRUMYou mean like you're doing now?
>>150104596The psychopaths are the monsters in charge. They think you exist to follow their arbitrary whims and be their tax slave, why would you defend people who despise you?
>>150111792GCPD can only afford rubber bullets.
>>150112081You can kill someone with rubber bullets
>>150104682They are literally on this exact state irl, the brits gov are openly bullying their own people on favour of sandniggers and when orange man and jd pointed it out they were crying about it as if they were attacked
>>150091251>I only watched the animated version and didn't read the comic it's based on.
>>150091251Exactly superman did his job better than Manchester did & Manchester started crying like a bitch
>>150112416The comics were the exact same so, not a great argument.
>>150091520superman wasn't making any rules though. he was power tripping at best.
>>150091251Either Manchester Black made this thread or Lex. Place your bets
>>150091251Why does superman look like an english hooligan from the 70s in that movie?
>>150108829a worthy sacrifice to be morally correct. if an escaped supervillain shot you through the heart with a radiation cannon you could spend your last five seconds of consciousness being happy with the knowledge that the villain was imprisoned and released instead executed. and he can be imprisoned again so the cycle can continue.
>>150112416>>150112453The animated adaptation was miles better.
>>150111532If we allow Superman to beat up and arrest criminals, he might beat up and arrest normal people to.
>>150091251Superman? End Lex Luthor if he's a REAL threat. Why bother keeping him around if all he does is try to kill you every day of the week?Batman, Joker blood from his killing is totally on your hands, also Gotham courts, for not ending his shit.No, you don't have to kill EVERYONE who stubs their toe on a puppy, but shit, murderers, real dictators (not Trump), assholes in the middle east, etc? Yeah, those need to go, others can be sent through courts and such but I'm fucking sick and tried of shit beyond police and shit in DC not being taken care of.>slippery slopeNo, asshole, only the REAL PROBLEMS will be killed, not political enemies or accidental I DIDN'T MEAN TO SHOOT cases.
>>150111532Ideas like "innocent" and "guilty" are in the eyes of the beholder. Or do you just ignore the people who say "If you don't speak out against this thing, you're guilty of being in support of that thing"? And hey, since we established they're guilty, that means we can target them. Right?
>>150093910Because it'd be a solved world and thus no real conflict. Imagine our world with no wars, no terrorists, no gang crime, no school shooters and all by showing examples of "go ahead, bomb that train station, see if you can". Supes would clean up the middle east so damn hard. And that's only those types, any OTHER crime is up to us to figure out and I'd be fine with it.
>>150113982maybe just don't make your characters mftl galaxy busting gods, maybe then people would actually read your stories
>>150113982>imagine our world with no wars, no terrorists, no gang crime, no school shooters and all by showing examples of "go ahead, bomb that train station, see if you can".You assume crimes are always committed out of rational thought. You'd still have terrorists because the terrorists would simply think like you too. Terrorists and suicide bombers going "don't you see, our ideology is correct! We just have to allow more of our sons to die and kill and they'll see we are the correct religion and way of life!"And, in response, you'll be thinking "we just have to kill enough of them and they'll get the message!" and everyone else, everyone rational, will be lamenting the needless loss of life. All because people really, really overestimate the power of killing and terror.
>>150113619i mean to be fair if batman ends joker without a sniper rifle we get batman who laughs shit occurring, so at least he has an excuse.
>>150091418would've been funnier if he shaked it at super speed and reduced the city to dust
>>150113619I swear that a lot of the people defending "no kill" bullshit are utter psychos who'd commit all sorts of atrocities if they had the means to do so. It's why they like to claim that "normal people" would be included in the scope. Even though normies wouldn't *realistically* be in any danger, the "no kill" types envision themselves being in the murderous villains' shoes, and quite similarly, don't want to face the consequences of their actions.
>>150113286Both are shit.
>>150098996>Commit MurderSorry to interrupt you but murder occurs when someone kills a person that either never did something harmful to someone or is punished with death for something that wouldn't even be considered a crime. Will of humanity? No. It's the government's will that all this shit happens. And killing someone like the Joker wouldn't be considered murder because over all these years he killed enough that he'd normally have both the FBI and CIA hound him like rabid dogs. And over the years he got worse and worse.The reason countries simply don't give such people the electric chair is because of DC, Marvel and so on doing this is because it would be a) unprofitable and b) writers don't want to come up with totally new villains for heroes non-stop. That's the reason the no kill rule is enforced everywhere and holds back heroes from dealing with greater evils.In reality the Joker would've been shot by some rando the moment the clown threatened him or his family and whole legions of people would rally to protect that person.
>>150115862>In reality the Joker would've been shot by some rando the moment the clown threatened him or his family and whole legions of people would rally to protect that person.But we hold the super powered individuals, Batman included, to a different standard. Right? The idea that Batman could kill at his discretion doesn't make me feel any more comfortable. What if you're getting robbed, and Batman sees you beating the shit out of the robber to protect yourself, and the throws a batarang at your neck because he assumes YOU'RE the robber?
>>150093218>kill all these supervillains who kill thousandsBecause then you're killing thousands. "But you're only killing bad guys!" Who decides who is a bad guy? Are bad guys defined as bad guys forever? Do people ever change? Is there such a thing as rehabilitation?Injustice.
>>150097622>Superman didn't win because he was morally superior and stood his ground; he won because he lowered himself to the same level as the elite.Is that what you got from this? He showed his moral superiority by showing what it would be like if he did stoop to their level, it was a show he put on.
>>150113619So like America when they went in and killed Saddam? Surely there will be no consequences. Say, when you go in and kill Kim Jong Un because you don't like the society that he is in charge of, what happens then? As Superman, do you install your own leader?How do you feel about Dexter the serial killer?
>>150116116No, that's for the people to decide. Gonna be another Hitler? Think about it, then ask "will i be killed if I Hitler, Saddam, Kim Un, etc?"
>>150116552You realize that the people of North Korea would say that love Kim Jong Un, right? And that Germans elected Hitler?
>>150091251it was actually>hey we don't need to fight>"yes we do!">no, we don't>"yes, we do!!">no>*dude attacks superman to prove might = right*>*superman no-sells it*>"uhh sorry about that, lets be friends">no, you don't get to back out of this that easily>*superman gives him a labotomy via heat vision to disable his superpowers*>"what the fuck i can't use my powers anymore!">we could have done this peacefully
>>150117017And really, if you could lobotomize someone's powers away, why would you need to kill them? We kill because we have to, but Superman doesn't have to, so why MUST he? Its different if he clashes with Lex and breaks Lex's neck. I don't think a single person could make a moral argument against that because Superman was defending himself. If he just broke into Lex's office and broke his neck, he'd be a criminal and a murderer.
>>150099156I mean I'd fuck himSpooky shadow gargoyle not Judge Dredd in powdered blackface
>>150093968why does he look like a faggot here
>>150118881Goku's just a really friendly guy, that's all. You should see him when he's serious.
>>150117017Weirdly Kelly has it so the Elite aren't interested in fighting Superman over the matter, even if dismissively, and Coldcast was sincerely examining Superman for any serious harm done instead of just leaving him lying in the dirt without a word.They don't come off as fight happy antagonists until the finale, hell the whole argument is they want to put down repeat offenders so they don't have to bother with rematches.Superman is the one who comes off very standoffish just from impressions, the plot wouldn't happen if he wasn't obviously, but still, with all his power shown later he could have just flown Hat away in a blink instead of clocking him or called the JLA in sooner like he said he would instead of standing there chatting.
no kill rules are stupid.this movie argues that might does make right.
comic books and cartoons are too high brow for some people, it's baffling
>>150120222>are too high brow for some peoplethat's right it's not that you're a manchild it's everyone else
>>150098460Sup's has had sparring matches in isolated places for the sake of it.
>>150115975Batman is as much of a moron as the majority of the supes as well as the judical and justice system because none of them try to find a more permanent solution to deal with the Joker.He already has the blood of innocent people on his hands because he, instead of at least cutting off the clown's limbs and putting him somewhere where he won't move nor be found, lets him go and even goes to save him.I don't say that people are beyond redemption and the chance to reform, but not every person deserves redemption and a chance at reform.These two things are only for those who are willing to do actually do some soul-searching and want to genuinely change. Something the Joker will never do.As for the robber part? Will tell him to fuck himself and go have buttsex with the clown.
If Superman really believes that killing is wrong why isn't he taking it up with the military?
The Elite becoming cartoonishly evil and Superman beating them in a fistfight doesn't discredit the fact that his way of doing things doesn't work. That's what the movie is trying to distract you from: Black is totally right about society needing surgeons but Clark doesn't want to hear it.
The image Superfags don't want you to see.
>>150123328>this is someones hero
"might makes right" is a parody of an ideology, it's transparently self-defeating, no one who's not mentally retarded uses it as an earnest phrase
>>150091520Proving someone a hypocrite doesn't prove either of their conflicting positions wrong.
>>15011680430% the first time (and needed to share votes with the GNP for even that) and the second time all the hitler skeptical parties were disqualified from voting.
>>150104207>Superman doesn't like the rhetoric, callousness, or mercilessness they showedPost the rest of the page, bitch. Superman, confronted with the fact that the targets of the The Elite had committed mass murder, kidnapped, tortured. and mutilated people, and were legally untouchable, decides to tell one of their victims to her face that he won't let them have justice.The Elite were a bunch of psychopaths, but Superman has literally no fucking counterargument against the pretextual arguments behind their violence. The only reason Superman comes across as remotely heroic is that The Elite act with wanton violence. If they were actually being fucking discriminatory in their violence, or even if you just divorced their words from their actions, Superman would obviously be in the fucking wrong.
>>150093131>white>name is literally קַל-אֵל
>>150091251Capeshit is fucking gay, what the fuck is wrong with Americans
>>150123774One wordfirst letter, its shared with another name for a clownsecond part now its the sound, the noise someone makes when they see something gross or touch something gross
>>150107080>but irl killing should be off the table for people who surrender/aren't a threat.Your logic forbids all executions foreverIf a jury of your peers determine you should die for your crime then so be it.
>>150123752So are you saying the Elite get to kill the families of Villains because they are guilty by association? The killing their families bit is the part that makes them look wrong.
>>150123959thats not what he said and he said explicitly the opposite in his post
>>150123752>make villains 100% right to the point the hero can say absolutely nothing in defense>also make villains retarded violent sociopaths so the narrative(and audience) never has to resolve thatEvery single time
>>150123946>Your logic forbids all executions foreverYes. Perhaps leeway during a warzone allthough only immediate combatants.>If a jury of your peers determine you should die for your crime then so be it.There's plenty of reasons not to do it even besides.>No guarantee that you have the right culprit or that the culprit isn't framed (And I know you know this has happened before)>Very expensive> Can perform productive labor in prison/> Crime might not match the punishment. Should people be stoned to death for adultery?>If it's too heavy handed for future people going to die anyway, you might as well go all out and do the worst shit you can think of.>Intrinsically emboldens authoritarianism.
>>150092709>which proves that might makes rightIt proves that the most powerful *could* do whatever they want, not that they *should* - that’s the fundamental difference.
>>150110039i believe it but its also why, despite violence being the ultimate authority from which all other authority is derived, there are conditions. Might makes right has 2 interpretations and both must be wielded simultaneously or else you just have a bunch of faggots living in relative squalor and constant fear instead of secure and productive citizens supporting a somewhat luxurious/rewarded warrior class. The strong are the ones who are first to put their own lives at risk for decisions made, the first ones to wage war for themselves or others, its only just that those who wager the most stand to have the most decision-making power. By the same token its their obligation to wield that authority for greatest common good possible if not for any moral reason than for the simple fact that a rising tide lifts all boats. Good division of labor will produce more for all than one man taking from the weaker. And no man is strong forever, one individual cannot beat a properly motivated mob or stop blades in the night though both are harder to come by.At the end of the day, its the guy who can win a stand up fight who should have the most authority by the sheer fact that if it weren't for him existing then other people or nature itself would come busting down the door to drag you into the mud again.
>>150114315dumb excuse made up decades after it stopped being reasonable to leave joker alive
No-kill-rulebros......
>>150123891Hyuck?I didn’t realize Goofy was the root of all evil in America, but I guess I can sort of see the argument.
>>150114233People are terrorists because terrorism worksThe security theater put up in response to it is infinitely more expensive than whatever the terrorists are doing. You want your opinion to be respected at the table then you need to show that you're not fucking around with it.>>150117239>if you could lobotomize someone's powers away, why would you need to kill them?Because he could, and does, eventually get his powers back with the sole thought of destroying your life and everything you love.
>>150123752>If you divorce the words from the obvious conclusion of their mentality then it's not so badThe entire point of the Elite is the escalatory actions, self-righteousness, and callousness.
>>150124247And "hang their families next to them" is an unreasonable escalation made up purely because the Elite were sounding too reasonableKelly made them kick a puppy because they were having legitimate arguments while supes was just pissing himself because>NOOO YOU CAN'T JUST KILL BAD PEOPLELike he didn't kill Zod, Faora, Quex-Ul for just as legitimate reasons. He should be arguing from the stance that they're subverting legal justice, thus undermining society as a whole, by denying these villains due process and that if there's corruption in the system its their job to try and fix it first instead of just ignoring it.
>>150124047>>Very expensiveBecause we have appeals processes that last for years over cases where the guy will get out and then immediately shank someone over a grand.>> Can perform productive labor in prison/No they can't, no amount of prison labor means jack shit because it'll cost the tax payers more to feed and house them. And that's putting aside the fact that prison labor not only lowers the wages of those jobs such that only prison laborers can do them but then creates a direct, profitable economic incentive to imprison people. The economic incentive for prosecuting crime should be the betterment of society, not the prisoner owners getting cushy government contracts and grants.>> Crime might not match the punishment. Should people be stoned to death for adultery?Wheel out that strawman why don't you, god forbid you use any reasonable example like murder or gross negligence leading to death.>>If it's too heavy handed for future people going to die anyway, you might as well go all out and do the worst shit you can think of.No you fucking shouldn't the point is to kill them efficiently and publicly as a shameful deterrent not to exult in sadism.>>Intrinsically emboldens authoritarianism.Fagggot.
>>150124343>and that if there's corruption in the system its their job to try and fix it firstThe problem is superheroes never do that shit. I don't even understand why. Writers control this shit. They don't need to include rampant public corruption and incompetence in superhero stories. Or if they do they could have it be one off shit that gets cleaned up when its introduced. It is insane to make the government itself be a reoccurring villain against characters that ostensibly function to uphold civil order. They literally just turn superheroes into tools of a corrupt system.
>>150124397>Because we have appeals processes that last for years over cases where the guy will get out and then immediately shank someone over a grand.Yes. Because once you kill someone you can't bring them back.>No they can't, no amount of prison labor means jack shit because it'll cost the tax payers more to feed and house them.It would be miniscule compared to getting things ready for an execution. Prison spending is largely in bulk anyways so no individual would be any more expensive.>And that's putting aside the fact that prison labor not only lowers the wages of those jobs such that only prison laborers can do them but then creates a direct, profitable economic incentive to imprison people. The economic incentive for prosecuting crime should be the betterment of society, not the prisoner owners getting cushy government contracts and grants.How would it incentivize imprisoning people if prisoners aren't obligated to do any labor. They can't force you. You could incentivize their participation but ultimately they'd make an inherently unreliable worker. >Wheel out that strawman why don't you, god forbid you use any reasonable example like murder or gross negligence leading to death.But people have died for that though. Should traitors be executed? What about that guy who performed consensual euthanasia? >No you fucking shouldn't the point is to kill them efficiently and publicly as a shameful deterrent not to exult in sadism.I was saying that the people who would have been on death row if the death penalty is too heavy handed might as well go as far as they can before dying. Also executions aren't really deterrents because all prisoners act with the premise that they won't be caught. Do you fear your dad's belt if he never finds out you fucked up? >Fagggot.A government should not be allowed to kill it's citizens.
>>150124247>The entire point of the Elite is the escalatory actions, self-righteousness, and callousnessAnd my entire point is Superman is also self-righteous and callous. Hell, he's more callous than them. Superman's ethics victimize everyone harmed by the batshit world he maintains. He's a cold, uncaring god in that issue, unwilling to secure justice for those in his power or let them seek it for themselves outside of the wildly insufficient rules he enforces.
>>150125442You don't need anywhere near as many appeals as the absolute monsters on death row get. Hell, if you're wrongfully found guilty on the first go round, it's because either the judge is corrupt, the jury is biased, or the jury somehow doesn't comprehend "beyond all reasonable doubt".
>>150091251I love this comic now because it makes Gunnjeets seethe on twitter because Manchester Black is exactly like James Gunn
>>150093968>closed eyes smiling superman
>>150093125Meanwhile Man of Steel practically has 9/11 happen 100 times in the span of thirty minutes.
>>150128234Zod's fault
>>150126166>He's more callous than themHe's really not at worst you can call him naive but ultimately his whole schitck is not executing people off the premise "they'll probably get off easy" while not really doing anything to address those systems they're APPARENTLY fully aware of too.
There really needs to be 10 threads every day bitching about batman not executing people huh
>>150124145Good guess your almost on the nose there
>>150124138C-Supes got better.
>>150128403>He's really not at worst you can call him naiveYou can't argue naivete when he has the problem laid out in explicit terms and his solution is to just keep letting the mass murderers off with a warning.>they'll probably get off easyProbably isn't the right word in reference to his argument since he explicitly says even if they keep getting away with it over and over again, he won't do anything to meaningfully prevent them from causing death and destruction. He concedes the fucking point in the hypothetical. And the second he does he, comes across as a heartless psychopath that cares more about the law than protecting people that aren't mass murderers.When a hero says he'd rather play clean up than prevention, he stops being a hero and just becomes a cop in tights. Honestly Superman being naive would have been better. A naive superhero might let people die, but they'd still be trying to make the world a better place. Superman, in that moment, isn't. And that's horrifying.
>>150123774you hate america!you love the terrorist!!
>>150113982>Supes would clean up the middle east so damn hard.Would Supes really have the balls to go against the jews?
>>150111532>The innocent won't be targeted, because, get this, they're innocent.
>>150113982>Supes would clean up the middle east so damn hardLol. Comics Supes explicitly would not.
>>150091639>>150106917>Senator Armstrong>Augus (Asura’s Wrath”>Oryx, the Taken King>Lucifer (SMT V)>Molag Bal>Micah (Red Dead Redemption)Who else belongs in the “Live by the sword, die by the sword” club? Annoyingly I don’t think it’s present at all in the comics. Even the most primal manifestation of warfare generally devolves into a seething mess when they get their ass beat.
>>150132676Some punisher stories have those
>>150132702Funny but appropriate that actual Marvel humans are apparently more chaotically violent than actual gods of destruction.
>>150092258>farts>solos>not even toon force
>>150091251Goku? Defeats this Superman
>>150093125Death Battlefag spotted
>>150132676Raoh
>>150093125Goku consistently has his enemies go to the middle of nowhere to fight.
>>150106917I immediately thought of him too when reading this. We're like brothers.
>>150093144Ah, but he did watch Dragon Ball Super, where Goku is still a reckless fool.
>>150098182There are some people who believe Superman shouldn't even be fallible.
>>150095825Superman likes fighting people he can afford to cut loose for, something something world of cardboard.
>>150136982he wasn't fighting for fun he was fighting cause dark side was being bad
>>150124138Its ok to kill robots
>>150091251i never got the reverence for this comic. the elite start off as somewhat reasonable people with potential to go down a darker path, and then get a series of cartoonish crimes put on them after superman spends most of the story sperging out at them, then play-pretends and solos them like he couldn't have done that beforethe story has a lot of potential conceptually, but the writer wants to do a wojack comic instead lol. superman should've instead shown the world that good intentions and "surgical approach" don't always work out together due to lack of responsibility, and have the people turn on them. That'd be more meaningful than another "superman stops holding back" moment we've seen a hundred times
>>150091251>Oy! me n' me mates think might makes right Supermin>Blimy, Now Supermin is beating each one of us in the arse one by one using his super human might he is>I guess we wuz wrong for some reason or otha guvnaThey could have wrote it in a way where they were taken to task, by the public, for their methods and retaliated violently at the public for it.Or they're taking on the atomic skull and do a Civil War New Warriors level of fucky wucky.Any number of things to make them cross the line from anti-hero to villain.In the comic they will overtly kill the innocent like any run of the mill mob.But in that movie they're just an anti-hero kill squad.Eventually their biggest sin is endangering civilians and then the implication that Superman never does the same because the writer says he doesn't because his version of Superman is fast and strong enough to always be there and stop anything along side his real superpower perfect situational awareness.
>>150093101Didn't they literally do that when the girl fed one of her monsters a dog near the start?
>>150123752>The Elites are willing to do villainous acts of pragmatic ethics and do shady immoral stuff behind the scenes with good intentions>but people love the goddamn xmen including the uncanny xmenComicbooks area retarded in their hypocrisy
>>150091251>completely ignores the entire story where Superman tries to talk to the Elite and they bitch and moan at him every step of the way>completely ignores the part of the story where Superman tried to talk them down before their fight with him on the moon to show they can still reason with him>completely ignores the part where Manchester Black and his friends genuinely think they've murdered Superman in front of the world and outright brag about it, declaring they'll do the same to any superhero that tries to fight them as well>completely ignores the part of the story where they basically became supervillains and think that makes them hot shit, only to whimper and cringe when Superman treats them like the super-villainous bullies they aspired to beI hate to use the word "media literacy", but when you show this much lack of it for a picture book...
>>150091783>If the story uses an ideology and its counterargument is to show the holder of said ideology be a stoo-peed cwybaby then it's not a refutation of the ideology you dumb nigger.You can't refute a moral ideology, because morality is just opinion. It is simply a fact that if you have more power than someone else, you can force him to do what you want. That doesn't make it right to do so just because you can.
>>150093131>It'd be okay if he were black
I side with Manchester because Menagerie was hot.
>>150137131In fairness, that's what happened to The Authority too. They were spun off a team of capes created in the wake of the world stopping Armageddon with one second to spare, meaning they were a team of hardass extremists who branched off the "no more holding back or showing mercy to those who don't deserve it" team to do their own thing. And even then, the Authority weren't exactly gleeful about all the absolutely atrocious things they had to do to keep the world held together, they just did it anyways and didn't bother with excuses. And then they started doing shit like outright taking over the US government and destroying entire alternate dimensions, essentially being written to "make the hard decisions" aka doing supervillain tier shit over and over again, and it becomes apparent the only reason it's even remotely tolerable as "heroics" is because their universe is that beyond fucked if they don't keep stooping to those levels, and it becomes a massive wedge in the team overtime especially with their leader.So when you transplant heroes trying to live out kind of mindset into a place like DC, but without the needed history or experience, then you're going to get wankers like The Elite. Guys who act like they know what's best for the world without having a clue how big and vast it really is. Because frankly, even at their worst the Authority would never go to blows with Superman over a disagreement this petty. They might if the alternative was letting Lex Luthor get another chance to hit the Armageddon trigger, but never because Superman challenged their authority (heh) or bruised their pride. It wasn't Superman vs The Authority Strawman edition at the end of the day. It was Superman vs The Authority's fanboys who only ever took "might makes right" from their books and nothing else. And they're here bitching because they know deep down they're shallow cunts who want an excuse to act like dicks and are disappointed papa Superman won't do it for them.
>>150104515>Streets full of feces, trash, and violence, despite having the "most" secure and security and lack of freedoms of the Western worldWhere's this? I've been to hundreds of european cities and never had any problems like this
>>150099090>Superman was definitely in the right to not want a British person to direct anyone on morals and ethicsAmericans, Canadians and Australians are literally self governing British. Also name one single turd world country that actually improved and didn't become a greater shithole after the British Empire ended. You literally can't.
DCAU>>>these movies
>>150091251What do Authorityfags think of this story? Are they sad more people know about the parody of Jenny Sparks than real Jenny Sparks?
>>150111532I swear Superman vs The Elite is the biggest fucking filter for retards. The whole point of the story is that you shouldn't be a bully. Anyone that thinks Manchester Black is right must have loved it when some 5th grader beat them up in the 1st grade.
>>150138443>That armed robber could've been me! It could've been you!
>>150093218Bitch this is the same argument we have every time we talk about Batman, and the answer is the same: because that isn't justice. Superman stops the bad guy and brings him into custody so they can have justice. He doesn't even owe you that, but he does it because he's a good guy. Why aren't you asking why the courts don't just execute dangerous superpowered criminals? Why aren't you asking why the prisons can't just do their jobs and keep their prisoners contained?
>>150137674point is, might made right in the end
>>150138568Because they've mistaken Superman's compliance with obedience and think of him as a tool of the state instead of, well, a vigilante. The mere idea that Superman can at any point tell humanity "Clean it up yourself" and have no obligation to change his mind mortally offends government bootlickers on some level.>>150138707>the story agrees with me because I'll ignore every sign it doesn'tYou go, girl
>>150093520All of our word leaders are pedophiles involved in human trafficking rings, shouldn't superheroes logically put a stop to them?
>>150106966Has there ever been a villain like this in DC or Marvel. Who in the face of defeat was happy to be prove correct, that at the end of the day might does make right?
>>150140383That's not why he was happy. They still had irreconcilable opposing views that needed one of them to die.>Might makes the rules, and the mighty should live unshackled if they disagree with it>Might is only truly strong and right in defense of the weakHe wasn't happy that Raiden agree with him. He was happy that Raiden disagreed but had the power and the conviction to enforce it anyways. Rather than just being yet another warmonger in a sea of them or self-righteous moralist who hides behind words instead of acting on his beliefs, Raiden actually stood his ground and proved "might makes right" is not strong enough compared to his own way. A way Armstrong is now confident Raiden will continue to enforce in the future.
>>150138264Botswana is doing ok.
>>150138707It didn't though, and that's only because Black wasn't willing to say "You're right, I've lost. Kill me/I surrender" and mean it. In the end, he found that when the shoe was on the other foot, it was suddenly unfair and actually superman shouldn't kill him.I'd actually like a story where the lesson is "Might makes right, but that doesn't mean you should use your might to kill people". Like if Black really was like "Alright, I lost, kill me! You're stronger than me, so I don't deserve to walk the earth!" and Superman like "That's up to me now, isn't it? Yes, I'm stronger, and I can enforce my will on the world, but that doesn't mean I should use that power to kill or harm."That'd actually be a subversive message for a change. Not the fake "subverting expectations" where the story validates all the same morals anyway, but a less that you can use might for good even if you're technically putting your will above others.
>>150141573Not that anon, but Black sort of does get close to inviting execution since he points out to Superman as long as his heart's beating he's going to get one over him. Superman just says he'll just spank them as he did and Black hangs his head.Either way I don't want to validate this argument since anyone who properly reads the comic or watches the movie will know the Elite never actually espouse "might makes right" the closest they come to is Black saying they should be allowed to "do as they see fit" with their victims not because it's right but so they're not hindered by corrupt systems turning vigilantism into a 9 to 5 job, he even >>150119407 stresses he never called himself or crew heroes despite Superman accusing them of that double think. What Black does suggest at another point is that the public love them for doing what everyone dreams they could, which is still not quite about something being right through might, but the power fantasy of all victims.I love Superman, and I don't really hate or love this story more than any other romp despite its topical elements, but the conclusion people draw from it is odd since really it's just a stalemate until Kelly later has Manchester spiral out of it and kill himself after Superman remains steadfast again to prevent a return to the debate. Until he was rebooted back to life, but that's basically a different character.
>>150141835>Either way I don't want to validate this argument since anyone who properly reads the comic or watches the movie will know the Elite never actually espouse "might makes right" the closest they come to is Black saying they should be allowed to "do as they see fit" with their victims not because it's right but so they're not hindered by corrupt systems turning vigilantism into a 9 to 5 job"Might makes right" is just essentializing their point, but its useful to do that because its basically their position. They don't have to say it verbatim for it to be true, so saying "but they don't actually say that..." doesn't particularly change that.One side says "we should do as we see fit because we can" and Superman says "no you can't". Black is still a massive hypocrite for deciding he can choose when someone dies but crying when someone says "so I should be able to choose when you die".
>>150106966many people have died proud with a weapon in their hand rather than surrendering so this isnt unrealistic, but superheroes don't really take pride in their abilities or violence in the way that soldiers have throughout history.
>>150139481>they've mistaken Superman's compliance with obedience and think of him as a tool of the statetdkr and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race
>>150116116is killing the problem for you? what if he just throws kim jong un into a watchtower rape dungeon instead of killing him? you think its a good thing that superman permits tyranny and nuclear saber rattling? >whos next?someone that wont saber rattle because they dont want a loose butthole.
>all these muh justicefags pretending that world governments and societies and law enforcement arent extremely violentLmao and lol and lmfao that you think justice means 12 people in a box. 94% of cases don't even make it to trial in america. Joker absolutely deserves to be killed or enslaved forever instead of put in jail the same way you would shoot to death an active school shooter or send 'terrorists' to a blacksite. Society would either donate millions of dollars to a villains go fund me, or just fucking kill them and sweep it under the rug.>b-but then the stories would be bad because they couldnt spam repeat villains!!Weird how manga doesn't have this problem killing or disabling or shelving their villains. Weird how even when they do bring characters back from the dead like in Naruto or Dragon ball, they have no problem killing them again. Turns out you can make interesting stories without repeating the same rogues gallery 20 times in a decade, well, if you arent WESTERN COMICS that is.
>>150091251But he was only pretending to throw a tantrum.
>>150091251>Makes filthy Angl*id punk seethe by just pretendeding to have lost his moral compass for a bit and mindbreaks himYeah it is a top tier.
>>150091251>British cunt says it's okay to kill villains>Superfag says "Ok villain, I'm going to kill you now".>British cunt wets his pants and cries.This seems pretty simple to understand. Why do people argue so much about it?
>>150146452because british guy wasn't really being a villain so it's a non argument
>>150091251How Super of him, Man.
>>150141573yes they tirned the opposing argument into a wojack, but the only reason superman got to have his way was might
>>150146614so now you're changing the argument to who counts as a villain and to whom, not a smart man are ya
>>150149187yeah, he lost the point that in the end might did make right
>>150091251The cape story that filtered more midwits than any other, western or manga alike. There's a retard on KF melting down about the same thing right now
>>150148805People hone in on Superman proving might makes right, but they don't focus on the fact that Black wasn't willing to stand by the mindset, which means Black proved might doesn't make right.Superman argued like Superman and Black wouldn't budge. Superman argued like Black, and suddenly Black wasn't willing to agree. That's what superman pointed out and its why I respect the comic.Too many bitches go around here acting like, if they had their way, they'd fix the world. Yet, when its time for them to get the same fixing they'd dish to others, it becomes "Wait wait, no! I don't deserve it! I shouldn't get what I've given to people. I-I'm different! I'm immune to the rules, don't you see?!" Cowards like that don't have the right to hold any opinion like "Yes, we should kill those who break the rules".I've said it multiple times in this thread, but I'll keep saying it because I like that part of the argument. Its the only thing that seems true in the world: if you can't take it, you can't dish it.
>>150149656>the fact that Black wasn't willing to stand by the mindsetBad writing on Kelly's part.
>>150149656brad not being willing to stick by it doesn't prove it doesn't make right, it just the writers turning the opposing opinion into a basedjak. a non argument if you will
>>150149656I think they hone in on the idea of "Might makes right" and forget the ultimate follow up is "do you want to live in a world where that's all that matters?" Nobody in the comic does, Not Superman, not the Elite, and not the People of Earth because it's hopeless and merciless.
>>150150060There's no way to definitively prove a concept as abstract as that. Ultimately, you can't, and that'd be true even if the mighty ruled everything. Instead, its like a debate where you prove someone's full of shit and does not have the right to weigh in on the subject. If you can't stand by your words, your words are meaningless.>>150150098I think they miss it intentionally. People believe they will be the big dog if push came to shove, and not only do they not want to face the fact that they most likely won't, and its possible no one would be, they also can't face the fact that a real big dog will make them sit down and shut up if it ever came to it.People think they'll be Negan from The Walking Dead, but in reality, Negan wouldn't even be like that in real life. Some shitlord would just walk up to him and put two in his chest, and that'd be that. He'd be laid out on the floor, all of his goons would be surprised and he'd just slowly expire.
>>150107009>They can dress it up in as much ironic and philosophical salad dressing as they want. This story is just another way to enable negligence by superpowered individuals not killing their misanthropic and homicidal superpowered supervillains >It's insidious like that.The reason they don't do that is they don't have the moral authority to do those things. Judge, Jury and Executioner works for Judge Dredd but not for superman. If this weren't comics the justice system would properly execute the criminals, but since it is comics and the entire point is moot it's a stupid masturbation session by retarded right wing morons who can't read.
>>150091543Lobotomizing him was kind of fucked up in retrospect. Supes is just incapable of redeeming his villains I guess.
>>150150503to be fair with clark he proved every single time he'd use his powers for carnage, sooner or later he would justify killing more and more people until the line of hero and villain would blur into a mess of greys, he could've ripped his arms alongside it if he really wanted to hurt him
>>150150488>one of the most intelligent, powerful, sane, selfless people in existence doesnt have the moral authority to be a jury>but 12 dumbasses too stupid to get out of jury duty do for no reason>executioners have moral authority because???You know what, this post actually convinced me superman SHOULD be playing judge jury and executioner.
>>150150529Supes didn't even really try to see what Black would do after taking a huge L and being turbo shook. Supes just took it upon himself to give the man brain surgery. Who knows, Black could have turned it around with Supe's guidance and become a huge asset to the community with his incredible powers.
>>150150709Could he?
>>150150738If Supes didn't think his villains could change he'd be a very difference hero with a different set of values. It makes his choice to lobotomize Black really out of character of a modern Supes.
>>150150758If he could lobotomize darksied or mxyzptlk, would he do it?
>>150150738Depends who you ask.Joe Kelly has it that Manchester becomes obsessively sadistic then suicidal once his powers come back.Gleason and Tomasi have the reboot Manchester being a flat out psychopath from the start.But Grant Morrisson has that Manchester, but possibly with seemingly with pre-flashpoint's memories when Coldcast shows up possibly because of the whole everything is canon thing, reluctantly sway to Superman's influence when given the chance. Unfortunately it doesn't last long due to being needed to fix what Bendis broke, I'll leave finding out about all that to anyone not yet disappointed in the tripe editorial and superstar writers pull and then leave for others to clean up.
So do people not understand the concept of judge, jury and executioner or something? Because superman at best, can just arrest people. It's up to the state on whether or not they should be killed, it isn't up to him to determine who lives or dies.
>>150150245so it's just making a basedjak out of the opposing argument when you don't have a counter
>>150150816mxyzptlk dindu nuffin and darksied is a lot different from a human
>>150150879see >>150150689
>>150150886That's more like what you're doing. "I don't like the writers opinion of 'most people are pussies' so its exactly like making a soijack out of the opposing argument"Of course, the answer is "no". It's a book with a story and a message. Its concluding an arc and showing that a character's convictions aren't as strong as even he is. A soijack is a shorthand comic on the internet that's literally meaningless. Its saying "people that says things I don't like are stupid" while the comic is saying, among other things, "most people aren't as willing to die for their beliefs as they think they are".
