Isn't it interesting how, for the last 20 years, Daredevil runs have followed the same on-and-off trajectory?>first a star writer comes along and writes a modern cult classic run that gets everyone talking about the character and people who haven't read anything pre-Miller start memeing about "no bad runs">followed by a no-name writer who writes a mediocre run that no one reads or talks aboutBendis and Brubaker -> DiggleWaid -> SouleZdarsky -> AhmedThat means the next DD run (whenever that happens) is going to be great again
>>150142780hope so
Isn't there an Old Man Logan-esque DD mini coming out right now
>>150142780None of those are good.
>>150143902What are some good comics then?
>>150143490it finished a couple of weeks ago, it was shit
>>150142780I've heard Bendis's run is absolutely abysmal. Ghat's shadowland right? Yeah I heard it was dogshit. Waid and Soule looks like Reddit, and Zdarsky hasn't been spoken of highly either. Like the Elektra stuff and decompression were sore points.
>>150144427>I've heard Bendis's run is absolutely abysmal. Ghat's shadowland righShadowland is Diggle's run. Bendis' run ends with Daredevil in prison.
>>150144427/co/ is contrarian and doesn't like any comic made past the year 1991.
>>150144486Early Bendis tends to be recommended by people, so his Daredevil run, Alias, Powers, Ultimate Spider-Man. But because Bendis really pushed diversity, decompression and Marvel events, people turned on him and retroactively attacked these runs. (Even though older /co/ recommended images DO recommend Bendis and also recommend Waid too.) Avengers Disassmebled/House of M pissed people off but by Guardians of the Galaxy/X-Men people were just done with Bendis and then apply the revisionism.There is this meme that Daredevil has consistently good runs as compared to other characters and so much of his run has been collected in omnibus format amongst other things because of this. So people recommend Marvel Knights to Bendis to Brubaker. I prefer Bendis to a bunch of the stuff just prior like Kevin Smith's bizarre shit.You can see how painfully out of date pic related is (we don't make or maintain things anymore).
>>150144486Rightfully contrarian. Bendis' run is described as this amazing run that's the peak of Daredevil and has amazing art by most of the internet. But then you read it and it's full of Bendis' shit dialogue and the fucking art is horribly and lazily traced.
>>150142780The Soule run isn't that bad and is actually pretty good compared to the Diggle and Ahmed runs.
>>150144871Bendis and Maleev are praised because the two worked to each other's strengths. Bendis started out as an obscure crime comic writer, so he's naturally into dialogues with little visual change, like you would see in a crime film. That would become a parody of itself later on, but it was usually within reason during his Daredevil run. And while Maleev obviously traced, he was pretty good at using shortcuts and tricks to make a compelling panel composition or an effective page like pic related. His art would often add tension to what would otherwise be a regular dialogue scene. Plus the coloring, which is normally not that important in comics, is an absolutely crucial part of Bendis and Maleev's run, emphasizing both the art and the gritty atmosphere. Most of the time, their Daredevil still tends to look better and more visually interesting than modern day tracers because it had a distinct aesthetic.
>>150145199It isn't traced per se, it is more just drawn from reference which gives it a static quality. I would compare it to a book like Ex Machina by BKV and Tony Harris. The extras in Ex Machina collected edition back pages would show Tony Harris' reference approach with photographs being compared to the finished panels. And they have the same quality as Maleev does. It was a big 00s thing.
>>150145199>with little visual changeHe had pages with NO visual change, very different from little visual change. Those facial microexpressions from films were chucked out in favor of this gimmick.It got old immediately.That page you posted has no tension, because it just looks badly traced with repeated panels zoomed in. Color has always been very important to comics, but most coloring jobs are haphazard.>>150145411It started out that way, but as it went on looked more and more traced.I don't like Tony Harris either, but it's a lot better than this.
>>150145602>It started out that way, but as it went on looked more and more traced.You know what the issue I have found is, and this will sound weird, but a bunch of the photorealist references use bad actors (often themselves and their friends). This sounds weird because, what acting? We are talking about making poses for photos. But when you you ask someone to make a certain pose, they tend not to do it naturalistically. And in cartooning terms putting this directly on the page creates silhouttes which often massively stand out against those backgrounds because they feel static and odd. So the panel you posted several of those people in the group have that quality bad.To be clear, it isn't to say he isn't tracing in parts or using online references but there was a weird fashion of it for the time, particularly for books like that. I have met Maleev irl and watched him draw and he is a good artist but yes, for me it looks static and dated now. >I don't like Tony Harris either, but it's a lot better than this.I enjoyed Ex Machina but some of the faces and poses are odd choices at times.
>>150142780>Zdarsky>acclaimed
>>150145789>acclaimedThe /co/ bubble is: hates everything. The mainstream comics bubble likes guys like Zdarsky and his run sold alright. Acclaimed amongst a few thousand people who still read the thing.
>>150144766>older /co/ recommended imagesAre full of garbage. God I fucking hate the retards that made them because they tricked me into reading so much garbage.
>>150145199>That would become a parody of itself later on, but it was usually within reason during his Daredevil runRespectfully, fuck off.
>>150145789>>150145809Acclaimed among Stockholm syndrome-suffering redditors and CBR users.
>>150145847Ding ding ding. Might as well say Tom King is also acclaimed.
>>150145819Comics recommended images have always sucked because it is some dude either telling you:>Read something because it is infamous or important for continuity not because it was good.>People appealing to authority on good runs even if they don't like them which usually builds hype up too much.If people actually sat down and tailored recommendations to people and built realistic expectations then comics would have more readers than it does now.>>150145847That's just the comics mainstream pretty much.
>>150145876Yeah but these are made by characterfags that don't want to admit a character doesn't have that many good stories so they fill up a picture with bad examples. Those images would be far better if they were just "starters", recommend just plain good stuff and when it comes to superheroes just recommends some of the best and new reader friendly stuff and let people branch out on their own later, but the people making them are narcissist that want to have complete control over what someone reads.
>>150145934Most people haven't even read half of it, it is all chinese whispers on what should be read and what is reprinted. But then that stuff constantly ends up reprinted BECAUSE it is recommended and not necessarily because it is all good.Again, because we can't have a normal in depth conversation on the things we read and like.
>>150145835I mean, they're doing something with the visuals here with the photo collage. It's a step up compared to later Bendis stuff where it's just one splash panel with lots of dialogue. Also, what you posted is an outlier.
>>150145876No offense but you sound like someone who just doesn't like cape comics all that much. I'm not a fan of some "iconic" stories either, but they did have a lot of people who genuinely liked them.
>>150145747I don't think it's possible to make photorealistic art look great, regardless of the acting. It always bothers me, whether it's Starman or Strangehaven. It's odd in a similar way to rotoscoped animation.And yes, Maleev drew good pinups, but he cut too many corners with his interior art after a time.
>>150146113Those lists were never concerned with putting stuff there that got reprinted, not at all actually. Don't know what the hell you're talking about.
>>150146322He's trying to take credit for stuff getting collected in trade or omnibus because they made those dumb rec images. Narcissistic behavior.
>>150146238Mm-hmm...
>>150145602>microexpressionsAre a meme that no one consciously picks up, and many actors don't consciously make either.
>>150146257No offense but you sound like a retard.
>>150144958I agree that it's not the worst run on the list, but it's probably the least memorable one. Every other run has some sort of general theme you can easily see.>Bendis: let's reveal Matt's identity and fuck up his life real bad>Brubaker: let's fuck up Matt's life even worse>Diggle: Matt takes over the Hand, it was a bad direction, but a direction nonetheless>Waid: return to basics, Matt is trying to be happy in a colorful world now>Zdarsky: Matt questions his methods and the system he's working for>Ahmed: Matt is a priest fighting demons now (another bad direction, but still a direction)And then you have Soule>uuhh... Matt has a diversity sidekick now... uhh... they fight some villans together... and there are Inhumans...All the things people remember from that run (Blindspot, Muse, mayor Kingpin, Mike Murdock is real) seem kind of random and disconnected from each other, like throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks
>>150146358>a handful of pages in a 60-issue run (huge by modern run standards)It's really not that bad.
>>150146774It's cancer. Bendis was never good.
>>150142780There hasn’t been a worthwhile run on the book since Miller. >nocentiWas good but not great or worth reading a second time. >Bendis, waid, soule, Zdarsky, Ahmed, brubaker All absolute dogshit. Im not just saying that. They’re simply not good runs. Not even worth a first read let alone a re-read.
Fans and /co/ need to take a hard look at Daredevil and just admit his material is just overall mediocre
>>150146774The art is fucking hideous and the writing is no better,it’s an awful run.
>>150147286Most of /co/ has been saying this for years. Frankly the “daredevil is the only character with no bad runs” nonsense was clearly started by shills on social media around the time of the first Netflix season.
>/co/ hates everything: the thread
Since it worked with Gwen Stacy, it’s time to make a Karen Page-DareDevil. Karedevil
>>150148706>phonefag>out-of-touch and doesn't know about Elektra Daredevil>still posts his uninformed opinionClassic
>>150144121>>150148632Miller's Daredevil run is good.
>>150148866I know all about Elektra, current Woman With No Fear.But to boost current Daredevil numbers you need to go big like bring back Karen in a super role.
>>150148926Why?
>>150146322>>150146346>Those lists were never concerned with putting stuff there that got reprinted, not at all actually. Don't know what the hell you're talking about.>He's trying to take credit for stuff getting collected in trade or omnibus because they made those dumb rec images. Narcissistic behavior.What bizarre comments, I never said any of the things you think I said.Imagine you want to get someone into comics and you dump a list on someone, "is good or needed and everything else is bad". No context, explanation, discussion of taste, does that make comic book readers? But people do this and then people appeal to the list even when they dislike it. Case in point: this thread and the mention of Bendis, something that appears on lists. I was just saying that comics has a bad mentality with this and lists sometimes. If people recommend the same few things they are also reprinted, regardless of taste, ala Bendis Daredevil has had a number of reprints. And then more people read it. If you recommend the same few things and the same few things get reprinted this means people miss out potentially on other stuff and it becomes a case of diminishing returns. I'm just saying comic book fans should do things differently.>>150146257Anon, I am a fan of cape comics. I was making a point about how bad fans of comics are at recommending comics. Dumping a list on someome's lap with no context doesn't make someone a fan. I am actually the complete opposite of what you think, I am saying there is more to explore than a list.
>>150148706Hawt
>>150149818What are you talking about? That's a bad drawing with almost no sexuality.
>>150146113>>150145876>Again, because we can't have a normal in depth conversation on the things we read and like>comics recommended images have always suckedYou did this same shit the other day
Bendis was only good for a brief wind when Matt took over as Kingpin of Hells kitchen. The start of his run (Wake Up) was so bad that they literally pulled him from the book and ran filler and even then, he came back and pissed off the Spiderman office AND George Perez, the later of which Bendis bragged about doing
>>150144766Alias was always bad, impressionable capefags of the 2000s hyped it up because they've never read anything with a dark tone and "mature" presentation before.Except Alias is anything but dark and mature. It's obnoxiously juvenile to its core. It reads like something written by a teenager who mistakes being pointlessly edgy for quality storytelling.
>>150150730People praised the fuck out of this along with Identity Crisis and Civil War.
>>150146774When you're not getting congeries of speech balloons, you get eyesore art. It's that bad.
>>150147617>Frankly the “daredevil is the only character with no bad runs” nonsense was clearly started by shills on social media around the time of the first Netflix season.Way earlier than that. I remembered people claiming this in the early 10s or maybe even the late 00sLooking back it was obvious it was shills
>>150146774Anon go ahead and read his run from the start and tell us how many pages it takes to run into one of those. I know the answer, I just want you to say it for everyone in the thread
If you don't see what's glaringly wrong with Bendis' Daredevil, you don't care about comics.
>>150143902You guys get so butthurt when Bendis gets mentioned but the truth is his daredevil was good and so was his ultimate spidey and first new avengers run
>>150151764You never read it.
>>150152335Oooh sorry the correct answer was zero pages. That's right the very first page of his run starts with a boatload of bendisspeak
>>150152359>any kind of monologue is Bendisspeak nowExplain what is actually wrong with the writing in this page without resorting to buzzwords.
>>150150061>The start of his run (Wake Up) was so bad that they literally pulled him from the book and ran filler That was as much Mack's work as it was Bendis', and if you're shitting on Mack then you're a certified filtered retard.
>>150146358descompressive era was a huge mistake.
>Bendis' New AvengersIt started out somewhat promising and then quickly became a chore to read. I tapped out somewhere shortly after the Sentry story because it was really boring
>>150152708>you know, to a shark>my uncle? Ends up he couldn’t payLiterally every Bendis character does thisFfs the prototypical Bendis speak meme is>Brian Michael Bendis?>You know, The comic book writer? Let alone the fact that he’s monologuing through 4 panels of staccato dialogue, the other Bendis speak hallmark. As for what is wrong with it you have four panels of a page being used to do nothing but ramble. One character delivering 300 words where 50 would have sufficed to establish character and propel the story forward.
>>150152730Jesus Christ I hate you insufferable cunts. David Mack is not a good comic artist just because his art is out of the norm. You’re the same type of faggots who use the term house style when it hadn’t existed for a decade before Bendis arrived at marvel. Every comic he was on would be immedaitely improved if it were drawn by someone else. At least Seinkewicz understood sequential storytelling.
>>150152326No. You just don't want to admit you like bad comics.
>>150145934If they did that, most characters would have absolutely no reccs.
>>150148706It rhymes better than Spider-Gwen.
>>150154435The dialogue in this page isn't the exaggerated meme example. It doesn't overexplain itself and helps render the character's manner of speech more realistic. It's Bendisspeak when it still had artistic merit. >One character delivering 300 words where 50 would have sufficed to establish character and propel the story forward.If Golden and Silver Age comics get a pass on wordiness that existed for the sake of itself, I can give a pass on wordiness that exists to convey mood, characterization and a specific manner of speech.Besides, this character won't survive for long. They need to use as much time as they can to characterize him.
huh
>>150154465>Every comic he was on would be immedaitely improved if it were drawn by someone else.Like I said, completely filtered. I don't know how you could look at his 51-55 Echo arc where style is the substance and say this.
>>150157220Nah. I'm with that anon. Mack sucks.
>>150158302Yikes
>>150154465>Seinkewicz
>>150157220I looked at that arc and thought>Holy shit did they really let this guy hijack Daredevil's book to shill his OC?>Who decides it's ok for a character's main and only book to be completely taken over like this for months at a time?I couldn't imagine reading that shit as it came out.
>>150144427Bendis' run is very good but I think the most impressive part is the consistency. The first half of Brubaker's run (everything up to and including the Mr. Fear arc) is fantastic and some of the best Daredevil has ever been. But everything afterward kind of peters out and ends with Matt becoming the head of The Hand and setting up Shadowland (which you correctly identified as shit).Meanwhile, Bendis' run has peaks that are almost as good as Brubaker (Out, Golden Age, and Hardcore) but the worst of his run (the Black Widow storyline) is still above average.Waid's first run is very good but a huge part of that is also the art. I couldn't even finish the second part of Waid's run (when Matt goes to San Francisco) since it felt way too political in the "CURRENT YEAR" garbage way.
>>150160866I'm curious, what didn't you like the Black Widow storyline? I thought it was one of the more entertaining arcs, I remember it was fun how Matt and Natasha kept pwning Jigsaw.I also don't think Waid's second part is political at all. Literally the only political thing is when Kirsten says "Mattsplaining" but it's a single dialogue bubble. There were no diversity characters or LGBTQ storylines or unsoliticed opinions on Israel or anything like that. It was really time by the standards of that time. I agree with the common take that the second part of Waid is inferior to his first, but it's still a pretty good run overall.
>It was really timereally tame*
>>150160866>Bendis' run is very goodAgain: no.
who cares
>>150144427Bendis' run was good for the most part. Iirc, a lot of people shit on Decalogue, but I kinda dug it.People who shit on Bendis' run nowadays are people who have read late-career Bendis and see all the writing ticks that turned into pure AIDs and made reading Bendis into a fucking painful chore.But Daredevil was before Bendis spiraled into pure dogshit. It was good stuff. Even if the premise of his run was complete horseshit.
>>150162828>People who shit on Bendis' run nowadays are people who have read late-career BendisIncorrect.
>>150162828I dunno, Bendis's typical dialog stink is still all over this run, and it's just as bad here as it is in his later work
>>150142780it's tragic
>>150142780No, not really.
>>150144766>2011>OldI'm sorry you are a tourist. Bendis was already shit on since Disassembled. People put up with his early New Avengers because they were doing numbers but he was always divisive.
I find it pretty fucking sad that Daredevil's mortal enemy is a guy with just as much beef with Spider-Man, Punisher, and nearly every other street level hero in NY. Outside of Bullseye, is rogues gallery never evolved over the years like other Marvel IPs.
>>150164741That's kind of the problem with DD. People shit on Iron Man's rogues gallery for being forgettable, but Daredevil's villains are all pretty "meh" outside of the same circlejerk of Kingpin/Bullseye/Typhoid Mary being reused over and over.
>>150165302Iron Man is worse.
>>150145747What if... and stay with my now, what if.... they just draw?
>>150165302I liked the Jester and Gladiator
>>150152708It's far too much dialogue.
>>150156048Golden and Silver Age stories were good and kept things straight and to the point.
>>150162828>people who have read late-career BendisI've avoided any post late 00s Bendis precisely because early Bendis is so shit.
>Waid was goodWhy do people keep saying this? His run was a total snoozefest. Is it just because he pandered to "muh early Stan Lee DD" types?
>>150164689Quit being a retard. No where did I say Bendis wasn't shit on. People argued heavily about him since Dissembled and House of M but definitely in the 2010s the arguing stopped and he became universally hated here because his awful Guardians of the Galaxy run post DnA or X-Men shit making Bobby gay. I called the list old because it was never updated, but most /co/ made rec lists with Daredevil contained Bendis run because some people still of that generation reading 00s stuff defended it.
>>150144427>I've heard>Yeah I heard>looks like Reddit>hasn't been spoken of highlyDo you read anything? Why even bother typing that out if you don't even read comics, what a waste of bandwidth
>>150167051A lot of comic readers just like straight up garbage.
>>150168151Like you?
>>150142780Millar run is the only good run
>>150169015Yes, I like Bendis and Waid Daredevil
>>150169526>Millar
>>150169654kek
>>150165302Rogues galleries only matter for marketability. Daredevil had memorable stories with Frank Miller, and that's what really matters.
Bendis shines best when he's writing street-level shit, and it was early enough in his career before Bendis-isms really became a thing so his run on Daredevil is quite good and only hated by /co/ nowadays because it's a gimmick to hate on anything Bendis. The man should've stuck to what he was good at instead of being at the forefront of every big Marvel event for the next 15 years.
>Bendis is good at street-levelIs on the same level of bullshit as "Daredevil never had a bad run"
>>150170470Ehhh... half of that run isn't good.
>>150170530>Bendis-isms really became a thingIt's pure Bendis-isms.
>>150170732Which half?
>>150170744Agreed. I don't know how people can stand it.
>>150170530>Bendis shines best when he's writing street-level shitNo, that is just a meme for people trying to defend his Alias stuff and ignore his New Avengers.
Shit taste, Bendisfags.
>>150167780Let him air it out.
>>150144313Would you say Soule is worse than Millar?
>>150151456Its Hunter x Hunter on steroids wtf
>>150170539Yeah his Defenders run in 2017 was ass
