How do you feel about the darker, more pessimistic tone of TNBA? Was it a strong and natural development after Batman TAS or did it feel like a regression?
I feel very very very positive about it
>>150355262>naturalPossibly? I always figured that "Mask of the Phantasm" had left Batman more embittered and that's why he's grumpier in TNBA and JL/JLU.>regressionKinda. Even if there's a reason behind it, the newer grumpier Bruce was a lot more prone to the one-dimensional "Batgod" shit that got old fast in the DCAU.
>>150355262I don't know but I always felt TNBA was a lot dumber than BTAS classic. That's not to say I don't like the show for what it is, I do, but the scripts felt simplified and more childish.
It feels more inconsistent. Like outside of the awful Tom Rueger episodes, most of BTAS is okay at worst. TNBA has some good stuff, like the one with Etrigan or the one where Clayface has a daughter, but there are some SHIT TNBA eps like "Love is a croc".
>>150355619The highs are way higher (Over The Edge, Growing Pains, Never Fear, Mad Love), but the lows are way, way lower (Critters).Also I'll never get over that they were able to get this Scarecrow design approved.
>>150355671I lost my shit when Batman was fighting the robo-dinos in this episode, (was it this episode?) and they used the same sound effects that the Bowser fight in Luigi's mansion did.
>>150355619>Like outside of the awful Tom Rueger episodes, most of BTAS is okay at worst.The Underdweller is the only episode Ruegger did that could be considered bad. Pretty Poison, It's Never Too Late, and Beware the Gray Ghost are all great.
While I prefer BTAS' style, the animation in TNBA looks so sleek overall it always impresses me. It looks fresh to this day and timeless.
>>150355262BTAS to TNBA is like interacting with a friend after an acrimonious divorce.
>>150355262What I'll say from the perspective of 2025 is something I've thought for a few years: that TNBA is a natural part of what is, basically, Bruce's character arc over the entire DCAU.There are essentially two main characters in the DCAU as a whole: Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. Each of them get their own shows (BTAS, STAS), each of them get 'follow-up' seasons (TNBA, STAS Season 3), both of them combine for an ensemble show (JL), and then both of them get an 'aftershow' where their characters are brought to a conclusion (Beyond, JLU).Bruce's character arc in the DCAU is one of rising, then falling, then rising again. He starts BTAS optimistic and naive. He believes his villains can be redeemed. The course of BTAS serves to put him through the wringer and kind of beat this youthful optimism out of him. By the time we get to TNBA, he's older and meaner, but also more experienced and more in control. He does become more "Batgod," but this feels like a natural development, and it corresponds with him becoming crueler to his foes on the streets. We see this directly called out by Dick in "Old Wounds."His impersonal coldness and cruelty kicks into overdrive in JL and JLU when he has to face world-ending, multiversal threats on a regular basis. He doesn't have the time or the space to be "human" since he has to keep up with a bunch of superhumans. So he becomes even more inhuman in turn, and even less optimistic. There's no time to try to "save" anyone, you've just got to defeat the enemy, when you're in the Justice League and the fate of the entire world, or even the entire universe, is at stake.This leads to Beyond. By this point he's driven everyone meaningful away that's still alive: Dick, Tim, Barbara, Selina, even Clark himself. And of course Alfred is long dead. After his heart attack in the field, he's a lonely old man sitting in a cold, empty mansion waiting to die. The absolute nadir of his inhumanity.Until... Terry comes along.
I remember thinking the episode where Batman and Nightwing argue was really forced and hard to buy.
>>150356962It was fast-tracking a character/story point that took years to get there in the comics, so of course it's going to feel a little forced.
>>150355262>natural development after Batman TASNo, but it's still a good show. It just isn't as strong as BTAS. I agree with >>150355346. I prefer Batman Beyond to TNBA. I don't think either compete with BTAS, though.
>>150355749I like The Underdweller.
>>150355749Wait, he didn't write Batman in my basement? That was easily the worst ep of the series
>>150355346>>150357310This take is stupid when you consider the scarecrow episode and a few more
>>150358621Nope, written by Sam Graham & Chris Hubbell. Something to keep in mind for the first season of Batman The Animated Series was they were accepting spec scripts from cartoon writers the core creative team knew, but not all of the writers were on the same wavelength of what Bruce Timm, Eric Radomski and Alan Burnett were trying to achieve with the show, that's why Paul Dini clicked with them almost immediately, and the other writers may as well have been writing He-Man or Superfriends, it was all the same to them.
There's an amount of whimsy for lack of a better word than BTAS had that is lacking in basically every DCAU show after it
>>150358670I do get what you mean. There's a melodrama to BTAS that is lacking in later DCAU which feels more no-nonsense and cutting edge.
>>150358762I endings like April Fools or Charlie now appreciating his boring home life
>>150355346>more childish.I think you need to dig deeper into this one because on the surface tnba has significantly darker, more explicit content.
>>150355262It was off-putting when I watched it as a kid, made sense when I watched it again later in life, and now I'm back to seeing it as off-putting.Mostly since so much of the tonal shift happens off screen between series. Or relegated to flashbacks that take place before TNBA but after the shift (Old Wounds in particular) that don't satisfyingly connect back to BTAS. You can make the case that it's a natural progression of the seemingly endless flood of villains, both new and repeat offenders, with an added touch of realism as the character aged between series. Yet it still proves what an outlier BTAS was compared to the rest of the DCAU, that it could portray dark themes without getting stuck in the underlying cynicism and bitterness that permeated everything afterwards.Maybe it's my own fault for letting other series influence my opinion, but considering the overall shift to portraying Batman as a bitter loner constantly alienating himself from his allies, it makes me appreciate BTAS' lighter tone and underlying optimism even more.
>>150355262TNBA was a soft reboot of Batman for the developing DCAU. Mr. Freeze and Clayface were the only storylines that continued from BTAS, while everything else was treated as a fresh restart.
>>150356927>By this point he's driven everyone meaningful away that's still alivei mean the villains also prolly played a part (the jonkler comitted "death in the family" and god knows what the near-apocalypse of '09 was about) but fair statement nevertheless
>>150355262I wasn't crazy about how overtly villainous it made catwoman. in the episode where she takes batman on a highway chase she's literally joker tier, purposely creating deadly mayhem.
>>150359826>god knows what the near-apocalypse of '09 was aboutWasn't there something about Lex Luthor turning all the world's gold to Kryptonite to spite Superman and that led to Beyond's cred system?
>>150355671GOAT design
>>150355262>>150355671I wouldn't call the highs any higher. At times it touched the same narrative heights that BTAS did, but it never really exceeded it.One thing that really bugs me is how it feels less character driven. Sure, the bat family all had their emotional moments, but there wasn't really anything going on outside of them. BTAS Gotham really felt like there was just more going on out there, with characters like Zucco or Thorne feeling like they're really a part of their environment and have shit going on besides their run-ins with the bat. Basically, in BTAS everything was happening at the human level, and when TNBA elevated the scale of things to fit the broader DC comics tone, individual people's problems felt less important. Gotham feels a lot smaller.
>>150361098All we know is that Ra's was responsible. I like to think he went in over his head on the occult stuff and accidently brought about a crisis-tier event.
>>150359813It was a visual reboot. Narrative-wise, they didn't contradict anything.
>>150362009>Basically, in BTAS everything was happening at the human level, and when TNBA elevated the scale of things to fit the broader DC comics tone, individual people's problems felt less important.Seems slightly inverted to me, if only because BTAS was able to pull off grounded stories and sci-fi fantasy stories so well. TNBA was indeed smaller in scope despite crossing over with the large DCAU. I couldn't see TNBA pulling off storylines like the HARDAC arc, Tyger Tyger or even the Vertigo episode. I can't really fault them for wanting to focus on a smaller cast instead of coming up with bystanders of the week or focusing on self-contained gangster stories, though it is strange that they pretty much stopped altogether.
>>150359813ypu keep saying this, specifically in regards to Mr. Freeze and Clayface, but I don't see it. Dick and Babs also pick off from BTAS, even if a lot of developments are offscreen, they're using the specific takes and dynamics BTAS established
>>150355262>>150355279
The older I get the more I wish thet stuck with the original art style for the other shows. Too bad Koreans could keep things on model.
>>150363114who is this strange character
>>150355262>How do you feel about the darker, more pessimistic tone of TNBA? Was it a strong and natural development after Batman TAS or did it feel like a regression?I like it less conceptually as I age. Its a big departure in how the characters are written. So much so one might consider it a timeline shift for Batman and his rogues. Like there is an alternate timeline where batman doesnt become as obsessed and has a happier life. Same for his rogues. Harley's holiday was an unofficial happy ending for Harley. She was getting better and was going to get out. Maybe even end up with batman or Bruce. A little happy gift from her creator Paul at the end of the show. Then that all kind of gets flushed by the World's finest superman cross over and then new adventures. She doubles down on Joker and becomes complicit in terrorism and murder.Dont get me wrong, she was a criminal in btas, but the body count was much more ambiguous. Lots of property damage, rarely any clearly merc'd bodies. You can extrapulate that out for most of the characters. Like freeze never being shown as clearly killing anyone with his freeze gun in btas, but it was much more likely in na and beyond that those frozen people were dead as shit. In btas, batman is neither batman or Bruce Wayne. He is a adult boy pretending to be both so no one has to suffer like he did. By worlds finest and new adventures there is only batman. A fan theory is that the batman is Bruce's answer to the existence of super powered threats to humanity. The opposite response that Lex had. That everything after worlds finest is a response to the existence of supers. Before that everyone pulled their punches because they just wanted wealth or fame. The real reason is Timm taking advantage of WB letting him be more graphic.
>>150356609underrated post
>>150358948It feels like people calling it childish only watched the christmas episode and didn't continue further
>>150363554Specifically only watching the first two segments of the Holiday Knights. In the third one, Batman gets shot on screen for the first time and Joker's arm gets turned to powder by a falling bell.
>>150356927I love how a heart attack against a bunch of schmucks is why he retires. No grand epic battle, just his body finally giving up from all the stress.
>>150358948There's more blood in the first 5 episodes of TNBA than in all of BTAS, for example, and the guns aren't old fashioned tommy guns and revolvers from the 30s, but modern guns. Even Joker's packing heat.
>>150355671>Over The EdgeI watched this clip recently and I found myself floored wondering how did we regress so much when you look at the present-dayhttps://youtu.be/PjtsL8Virgk?si=JGCCKv9ziyWY66DW
>>150364863TMS animated this episode, they became unaffordable shortly after this. They had the budget for it with Return of the Joker, but Batman Beyond itself and Justice League were strictly South Korean.
>>150358621The Underdwellers and the obligatory generic chain gang episode every action series did from the 60s to the 90s are worse
>>150363087Freeze and Clayface are the only ones explicitly shown to be continuing from their last BTAS appearances (Sub-Zero and Mudslide). Everybody else is in a grey area where they may or may not be the same as before but generally doesn't care either way. And some altered characterizations (like Baby Doll going from an angsty has-been "kid" actress to a sociopathic midget) definitely feel like TNBA doesn't follow BTAS when it doesn't want to.
>>150365527It's not grey. They're all the same characters.Baby Doll was a case of character growth. She served her time and went back to civilian life, it made her miserable, so she relapsed and went into crime to impress a guy she liked. Blowing herself up with Croc was an escalation of her original plan of blowing herself up with all her old cast members.
>>150356927It's interesting how the "Bat Embargo" wound up being kind of a blessing in disguise for Superman. Because the JLU crew couldn't use most of Batman's extended cast, they had to lean more into Superman's extended cast, which basically turns JLU, or at least the Cadmus Arc, into one big Superman story, which, as you say, DOES bring DCAU Clark's character to a kind of satisfying conclusion, paying off elements of his character that were established all the way back in STAS.
>>150358948>>150363554I think the impression is honestly more "vibes", I see a lot of people say the art style is more "childish" and cartoonyI do think it feels like some of the interpersonal drama was toned down and that may feel less mature to people too.
>>150365527Anon this is something you feel not anything actually true to reality. You're going off most likely knowing BTAS as a default for Batman and assuming many things TNBA is picking up directly from how BTAS handled a Batman adaptation is a given. Baby Doll and Harley are BTAS inventions, not comic canon before, so them existing at all is picking up from BTAS. Babs being younger and close to Dick's age is a BTAS invention. Characters like Ventriloquist being used is something that BTAS popularized and weren't done in adaptations before(for that matter, the same can be said about Two-Face, Man-bat, and Poison Ivy-- to add to your use of Freeze and Clayface). You're free to feel it's two different universes, but that's not the intention and they weren't trying to make an entirely different show.
>>150358653Funny enough, Paul Dini DID write He-Man. Can't think of any Super friends episodes he did.
Didn't like how Clark and Bruce ended up in Beyond.
>>150364176He retired because he almost killed someone. Otherwise he would have continued, even it meant dying in the field.
>>150355279I want to lick the puddin off Harley.
>>150366135>Funny enough, Paul Dini DID write He-Man.It's how Bruce Timm met Dini, Timm was a clean up artist on layouts at Filmation, he even illustrated some of the Masters of the Universe comics that were packed in with the figures. The difference is Dini was actually a fan of the stuff, whereas a lot of the writers just saw it as a gig slumming writing crappy cartoons for kids until they could sell their big Hollywood screenplay.
>>150367425Almost killed someone WITH A GUN. Basically Bruce's worst nightmare. It's a very good scene.
>>150356927Nah. Bruce still has a lot of his core ideals. There was an episode where Apokalips was being attacked by Braniac and Darkseid couldn't deal with it on his own, so he got the League to help. Superman wanted nothing to do with it, assuming Darkseid was up to no good, while Batman didn't want to take that chance. It's an unusual reversal of their normal relationship. The show calls attention to Bruce's fundamental humanity several times. As cold and hardened as he becomes, there's an underlying kindness and altruism that drives him. A common theme with Bruce, especially in Beyond, is that he tries to be cold, emotionless and cruel, but this is consistently portrayed as him lying to himself. Yes, he does drive people away and he does take some hard actions, but he can't truly change who he is. This is why Bruce and Waller are presented as foils to one another. Waller is what Bruce would become if he truly became what he presented himself as: cold, pragmatic and ruthless. But that fundamental humanity that drives him is what makes him different from Waller. It's also why in the Justice Lord arc, Lord Batman is the only one who could be convinced to betray the other Lords, because there will always be something there, something inside him that he can't lie to.
>>150355262It was alright but BTAS was better and less flanderized.
>>150367762every time I have to stop doing something that I've poured myself into, made my focus, my identity, because it's fucking clear if I don't, I'll do something terrible.. I think of that scene.I'm really, really tired of that happening. I'm trying not to pour myself into things anymore.
>>150367828Yeah but.. Superman was right. Pretty rare for Batman to be wrong, this was a weird case.
>>150355262What’s interesting is that the plots got more cartoonish while the character of Batman got more depressing. I don’t think there was any TNBA episodes that got close to Batman dealing with drug addicts or the depictions of gang violence, albeit the mafia kind. Though as I type this, I think the Clayface episode in TNBA was arguably on par.
>>150370633bump
>>150370633>or the depictions of gang violenceJoker's millions
>>150362064ifeel like something outta "tower of babel" or "JL doom" might be it...and just to make sure batman doesn’t have too much blood on his palms, you can just make it so his infamous contingency plans “weren’t supposed to be developed further” or "were horrendously sabotaged to be deadly"
>>150358948But that's ALL the action scenes. It's only "darker" because they were able to have characters punch, hit, and sometimes bleed. In terms of the scripts the episodes are much more childish and simple compared to BTAS. There are times it shines like Growing Pains, but most episodes are really simple. The villains lack the pathos of BTAS. There's a lack of gravitas to the plot and the noir themes and more serious tone is gone. Compare Perchance to Dream to Over the Edge. Both are "It's all a dream" episodes but is a slowplaced examination of Bruce Wayne as a character, while the other is mostly just a non-stop string of action set pieces. Batgirl dying doesn't make the episode mature. Violence and blood isn't maturity and thinking as much is a very childish stance. And don't get me wrong Over the Edge is a fine episode but it says very little about Batgirl's character. Meanwhile Perchance to Dream says a lot about Batman's though. Compare Baby Doll and Vendetta to Baby Doll. And that's not to say BTAS doesn't have its duds, and TNBA doesn't have moments where it shines (or that TNBA is really a bad show) but BTAS had a certain maturity to its writing that TNBA very much lacks.
>>150372565>Baby DollCrap I meant Love is a Croc.
>>150372565>s. Batgirl dying doesn't make the episode mature. Violence and blood isn't maturity and thinking as much is a very childish stance. And don't get me wrong Over the Edge is a fine episode but it says very little about Batgirl's character.But Gordon feeling betrayed that Bruce knew and let his daughter join his crusade does
>>150372718When you think about it, Bruce's entire project basically walks a knife's edge. From the beginning he's been a vigilante: a criminal according to the laws of every civilized country. Then he gradually starts to involve other people in this criminality, including children and people who aren't of the age of consent. Any police commissioner or district attorney who wanted to issue a warrant for Batman's arrest would be entirely within their rights to do so. The fact that Gordon never does is actually kind of scandalous, when you think about it.I think that's actually something that gets missed when people bring up whether Batman's "no kill rule" is a a good idea or not. It's almost certainly the case that Batman never killing criminals helps keep him in the legal system's good graces. It's easier for Gordon to tolerate him when he doesn't play judge, jury, and executioner every time he goes out on patrol. It demonstrates that he operates within limits, within a system, and this makes him easier to trust.
>>150372565>And don't get me wrong Over the Edge is a fine episode but it says very little about Batgirl's character.It actually says a lot. The whole episode is after Barbara was gassed by Scarecrow's fear toxin, it's her worst case scenario, her deepest fear about what could potentially happen to the Bat-Family. The ending even has Jim hinting that he's aware of her being Batgirl and working with Batman. "I'm proud of you, all of you."
>>150365527Batman Sub-Zero is an strange case because Timm and Dini had no involvement with that; their original plan for Freeze and Nora was in the 1994 Holiday Special comic, the story "White Christmas" where it showed that Nora died. But for some reason or other instead of considering Sub-Zero non-canon they continued from it and went in a different direction
>>150373351The BtAS season 3 episode 'Deep Freeze' already showed Nora was alive in cryo suspension before Sub Zero was made.
>>150365156I thought the Chain gang episode was kindof fun...
>>150374868The Forgotten. It's kind of preachy but isn't terrible. Alfred flying the Batwing is fun. The dream sequence where Bruce remembers who he is was pretty cool.
>>150355671>Over The EdgeThis was the very first episode I stumbled upon by accident as a child, not having realized that BTAS had ended...and I was quite stunned to say the least.Even as a kid I resentfully admitted that the aesthetic was cooler, but felt Batman's character suffered more than anything.
>>150355262when I was growing up this was the default batman to me and I saw the older episodes as uglier and antiquated. Like I really REALLY liked Batgirl design from this one and thought the original was a bit uggo.
It makes sense Batman would become more cynical as time went on and people kept breaking out. I feel it would have been nice to get another season and see if the show evened out more. As already touched upon, the lows of this show are really low. Then again, that could be a function of them doing so many Batman episodes. How many more quality half-hours could they produce?
>>150375454>How many more quality half-hours could they produce?Episodes like Over The Edge and eventually Return of The Joker showed me that the core creative team wanted to progress the story more towards some sort of conclusion within the DCAU, but felt constrained by the need to maintain status quo for the sake of the franchise future, and that's why dream fakeouts like in Over The Edge or concluding the TNBA timeline later on after it was definitely done with in Return of the Joker happened.
>>150366135Wrote some transformers too
>>150375574It's honestly one of the DCAU's strengths, that it DOES have a conclusion.
>>150367828Really great read of the character.
There's a number of other neat elements to Bruce's character in Justice League. Bruce, I think, had more memorable or interesting interactions with the others. Aside from his obvious dynamics with Clark and Diana, you also had>The Chronos episodes with Jon>The Hawkman episode with Shayera>The Flash Museum episode with WallyI can't remember entire episode focuses with J'onn off the top of my head, but I do recall that they actually clicked pretty well together. Overall, there was sort of this sense that Bruce was actually pretty comfortable in the League, in spite of his insistence that he was a "part-timer". As broody and cynical as he was, he seemed almost happy, and he easily had the healthiest relationships and interactions there than he did in his own shows. Granted, in his own shows, his most stable and long-standing relationships were with A) Alfred, B) Gordon, C) Dick, D) Barbara, E) Tim. Alfred was his butler, Gordon was someone he only interacted with on the job, he ended up burning his bridges with Dick and Tim was a third his age. Barbara was weird. Like I know a lot of people didn't like the relationship on principle, but I'm more concerned with why the relationship happened in the first place when it never ended up going anywhere. His time in the League may have very well been the happiest time in Bruce's life since his parents died.
