>Bart, I have a riddle for you. What is the sound of one hand clapping?>Piece of cake. *clap*clap*clap*>No Bart, it's a 3,000 year old riddle with no answer. It's supposed to clear your mind of conscious thought.>No answer? Lisa, listen up.>Let's try another one. If a tree falls in a forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound?>Absolutely. Nyyyyeeeewwwwwwwpppfffffffff!>But Bart, how can sound exist if there is no one around to hear it?
>>150414099That would imply that existence relies on itself to be perceived. But the absence of life does not stop existence. Sound exists even without perception.
>>150414099Bart and Lisa should go barefeet more often.
>>150414099>Lisa is too self-centric to believe there is a world outside of her immediate perception
>>150414164You should drink bleach more often.
>>150414126>Sound exists even without perceptionProve it
>>150414126yeah, but they didn't know that 3,000 years ago, now did they?
>>150414164they do in HD Simpsons because it's easier and cheaper to modify character models than it was in old days of hand drawn and colored animation
>>150414099Sound exists, despite your feefees.
>>150414196>want more barefoot characters>drink bleachWhat
>>150414126No, it would imply some things are defined by properties separate from themselves. Are vibrations a sound with nothing to interpret the vibrations as such?
>>150414126>>150414188>>150414232You do know that once she said that, he understood the lesson she was trying to impart? How does it feel that 8-year-old cartoon boy Bart Simpson is more capable of seeing things through alternative frames of references than you, a presumably late 20s to mid 40s white guy living in the real world?>inb4 trannyI'm a 28 yo white dude and I really enjoy early Lisa because she never felt preachy when she dipped into new age thought, like a normal 6 year old girl.
>>150414255>Are vibrations a sound with nothing to interpret the vibrations as such?Yes.
>>150414207It wasnt 3000 years ago, it was a point in the scientific American in the 1800s that argued sound is scientifically defined by sense experience.
>>150414288Tell that to the other guy.
>>150414253Pay no mind to the frothing anons. The very fact that other humans can experience joy and comfort of any kind drives them insane and they respond in turn
>>150414284No. There is no chance that bart the fictional boy, saw anything at all. The reality is a writer wrote the lines for lisa and then wrote the lines for bart such that he came to concede Lisa's point.Have you ever heard the phrase "how do you know?" And did it ever change your mind about anything?
>>150414286Every atom in your body is vibrating right now on the quantum level. Are you making any sound at this very moment, anon?
>But Bart, how can sound exist if there is no one around to hear it?>hurr if I don't look at the Moon then it doesn't existsubjectivists everyone
>>150414342>Hey Lisa, I don't think your pussy exists because I can't see it. Wanna prove me wrong?
>>150414284they're 10 and 8 not 8 and 6
S11...
>>150414206Why?
>>150414329Absolutely: heartbeats, breathing, and thunderous farts.
>>150414206Its baked into the hypothetical, we both acknowledged it. >If a tree falls in the forestIf this is now untrue then the scenario has not been reported to me properly and the hypothetical is null.
>>150414255>Are vibrations a sound with nothing to interpret the vibrations?What if the vibrations cause lasting damage to the world itself? You could interpret that. Say a tree falls in the woods and the resulting noise causes an avalance on a nearby mountain. Just because no one heard it doesn't mean the sound never happened, considering that's how avalanches start.
>>150414206You heard it and told me about it. And then i heard it later.
City slickers
>>150414099Physics work wether or not somebody observes it.
>>150414164Yes.Yes, they should
>>150414099Lisa the perpetual midwit
>>150414126Sound is the perception of air waves. The air waves would still exist, sound would not. Colors also wouldn't exist without something to perceive them even though the light creating them still would.
How about a better thought experiment.
My favorite threads on /co/ use simpsons screen in the op and I'm disappointed in this thread.
>>150414284Yes I watched the episode, I do know that the cartoon character stopped fighting the other cartoon character when the writer wanted them to move along in the 22 minute story, even though Bart would have responded with>there’s squirrels in the trees, ask themOr>why would something stop making sound just because humans aren’t there? Other creatures have ears, if sound exists only for us why do they need to hear sound? Because unlike you, alternative thought is not immaculate in peculiarity if you parse the concept down further. Observation of reality shapes it, yes, but you aren’t observing reality, you’re observing shadows on a cave wall and claiming I denied reality and was going to call you a tranny over it. You are right about one thing though, obversation shapes reality, because now I’m going to have to ask you to dilate, and stop seething that people don’t appreciate the works of an established hollywood elite on the epstein list in the same accepting way you do. You fucking tranny.
>>150414765This is essentially predestination but for everything, not just those who will and wont go to heaven, right? The whole "your chemicals in your head determine your actions, and thus the same chemical state met with the same stimuli will always take the same actions"?
>>150414722Life evolved to interpret these phenomena, and while variations do exist (most mammals being red green colorblind for example) every lifeform that evolved to understand these waves experience them in roughly the same way, even we humans know of ultraviolet and infrared despite not seeing them naturally like other animals. Therefore the interpretations are more or less accurate and any philosophical masturbation over it is unnecessary wankery by people believing they're smarter than they really are.
>>150414206I can't hear a dogwhistle, but my sister's dog can. Therefore the vibration I cannot perceive nevertheless exists.
>>150414854Nah there's a clear difference between perception of certain phenomena and things that actually exist, and we have no way of proving that say and ant experiences a heat change in the same way a human would. Humans themselves often experience these in different ways such as people who are colorblind or that weird mutation some women can have that lets them see way more colors than the average person. Some things just objectively exist like planets, other things are subjective. You come across as a pseud looking to shut down discussion to make yourself feel superior.
>>150414854>Therefore the interpretations are more or less accurate and any philosophical masturbation over it is unnecessary wankery by people believing they're smarter than they really are.I actually agree with you but this was such a blatant wank of a statement I feel obligated to call you a faggot regardless.
>>150414898>um akshully we don't know how ANTS perceive heat change therefore it isn't known if it's accurate!
>>150414946>Warping the argumentI accept your concession and shall no longer respond.
>>150414126>Sound exists even without perception.Sound is a product of vibrations interacting with the ear. Without the ear, there is no sound, only vibration.
>>150414972The inner ear evolved to interpret soundwaves accurately as possible so that's how they sound more or less
>>150415021>The inner ear evolved in such a way that it translates vibrations into sound, i.e. a thing that doesn't exist indepdent of the ear.ftfy
>>150415054If it doesn't exist then why has life evolved to interpret wavelength variations in roughly similar ways?
>>150415169>If it doesn't existYou're too dim for this conversation.
>>150414432kek
Prove that I'm not the only real person in the world.
>>150415188Oh so NOW our experience of reality is a thing that exists? Thanks now take your reddit tier philosophy out the door and kill yourself.
>>150414568Yep. If a tree falls in a forest and there's a deaf man there, it still makes the crashing sound. The man just won't hear it. Sucks that it fell on him though.
>>150414721>Lisa the perpetual midwitWell, duh.
episode in which Lisa gets beheaded when??
>>150414099If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, did a tree fall in the forest?
>>150415262>Oh so NOW our experience of reality is a thing that exists?Again, you're too dim for this conversation. You don't know what I said, so you mentally translated it into an argument you heard elsewhere, attribited that argument to me, and declared victory because I didn't defend a perspective that isn't mine. Crowing about it just makes you look like a retard.
>>150415389I accept your concession
>>150415407I accept your willingness to lick windows to prove you aren't a window-licking moron.
>People itt don't know the difference between phenomena and qualiaEven Karl Pilkington could figure this out
>>150415556People itt badly want their experiences of reality to be reality itself, for reasons known only to themselves.
>>150414206>uhhhh>couldn't you like>record it in the woods or something>uhuhuhuh
sneed
>>150414284>You do know that once she said that, he understood the lesson she was trying to impart?What lesson? She was just regurgitating "deep" non-sequiturs that she heard some time in an attempt to come off as spiritual, and Bart's dumb as fuck so he bought into it with almost zero resistance.
>Bart, I have a riddle for you. What is the sound of one hand clapping?>Piece of cake. *clap*clap*clap*>No Bart, it's a 3,000 year old riddle with no answer. It's supposed to clear your mind of conscious thought.>No answer? Lisa, listen up.The virgin spiritualist vs the chad realist
>Bart, I have a riddle for you. What is the sound of one hand clapping?>Piece of cake.>*smacks dem cheeks>*clap*clap*clap*
>>150415369If no one is around HOW did the tree fall? Was it the wind? Because if the wind was that strong it probably would drown out the tree sound anyway.
>>150417055Well obviously you weren't around to hear it.
>>150417118But could I hear the wind? Also if a bomb goes off in the forest but I'm not around I can still hear that from like miles away. Do bombs not follow the same 3000 year old rules as trees?
>>150416296/thread
>>150417055I can tell you right now that the wind does NOT drown out the sound of a tree fallingt. Lives in the PNW
>>150417530Washington State?
>>150414099The tree thing is easily the dumber question though it's old. It gets you to understand that things beyond our knowledge and comprehension occur and we easily accept that. Sound isn't a product of perception. It meant more when maybe someone doesn't have a complete understanding of how sound works.The better one is if a rock thrown down a well makes no sound if you don't hear it. If you conclude it does, you can assume the well is just too deep for you to hear it land. If it makes no sound, it's due to some atmospheric weirdness that neutralizes sound from forming.
>>150417687Even if you go into the autistic "sound is the vibration of atoms" definition that still requires that those vibrations interact with your ears to produce the perception of sound.
>>150417160How do you know a bomb went off? We're you there?
>>150414972Well if you want to define it like that, literally nothing makes sounds except for your ear drums.
Why is a raven like a writing desk?
>>150414722You're genuinely stupid, I feel bad for your mother.
>it's a 3,000 year old riddle with no answer. It's supposed to clear your mind of conscious thought.I think the fact that we're sitting around debating the riddle's semantics proves that the riddle is absolutely shit at the intended task, because we're consciously thinking so fucking hard about it.
>>150414099lisa sucks
>>150418533kek. you could probably say that's just the result of overthinking being the modern day disease
>>150419568I'm no expert on Chinese, but it wouldn't surprise me if the entire distinction between sounds and vibrations as an idea that everyone always brings-up doesn't even exist in the Chinese language, fundamentally missing the point of the riddle.>overthinking being the modern day diseaseI'd rather overthink than have my brain completely shut-down when presented with a tricky question.
>>150415556don't insult Karl Pilkington like this. he's got a knack for philosophy. like that time Ricky Gervais asked whether Karl would go into a machine that cause him to experience a perfect life, to which Karl's immediate reaction was "but it wouldn't be real"
>>150415283This.
>>150419876Oh I'm not insulting Karl, I'm saying that Karl was able to distinguish between phenomena and qualia because he's literally had multiple conversations about it while people ITT are too stupid to grasp it. Like that time he thought of a machine to let a doctor feel the same things that you feel because maybe we feel things slightly differently and language alone couldn't convey what you're trying to describe to him. Notice that most of the people not getting it like >>150418502 are just resorting to petty insults instead of actually trying to explain why they think there is no difference.
>>150420795Karl is like the epitome of street smarts vs book smarts. He's got basically zero of the latter but he's got a pretty good grasp on like...existence. And a hot gf. Can't be that stupid if you landed a hot gf.
>>150420795>Like that time he thought of a machine to let a doctor feel the same things that you feel because maybe we feel things slightly differently and language alone couldn't convey what you're trying to describe to himoh yeah like that classic question of "is my red the same as your red?"kant unrelated
>>150420991>have an in-joke with your servant>some philistine who doesn't like you seethes about it and portrays you poorly>someone born two hundred years after your death treats it as a testament to your characterGrim
>>150420766>I said step, pause, turn, pause, pivot, step, step>Not step, pause, turn, pause, pivot, step, pause!>Ooh! Shudder!
>>150420991Kant was taking it up the ass from Frederick II of Prussia.
>>150414126>That would imply that existence relies on itself to be perceived.But it does. Look up weak vs. strong anthropic principle.
S5E11
>>150421749Homer the Vigilante
>>150414436We know from quantum mechanics that perception can change reality. So how do you know its not the same in this case?
>>150414867The dog perceives it. Bad example.
>>150414568But someone needs to observe it in order to have documentation of its function. No one can explain rogue waves because they operate contrary to how marine scientists understand wave patterns.
S11E5
>>150421373>>150421561t** drinkers detected
>>150414099>If I yell to a deaf person, did I make a sound?That's a very self-centric view. Just because you are not perceiving them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.It's the old "I'm an astronaut and I have never seen God." "Well, I'm a surgeon and I have never seen a thought."
>>150414284Yet after all these decades you still don't know Bart's age
>>150414424Don't you do it
>>150417687>Sound isn't a product of perception.lol yes it is
>>150414206That's not the question.The question is, as worded>and no one is around to hear itthese are the key words. Even if no entity with the sense perception of "hearing" is around, the tree does in fact still produce sound waves when falling. We know this as a matter of scientific fact and have evidence of sound events that "no one" was around to hear at the time.
>>150414126The vibrations (sound waves) exist, unless you believe nothing exists outside of experience or the world came into existence when you were born or any other unfalsifiable solipsistic stuff. Basically, the answer is if you're considering sound as a physical phenomenon then yes the sound exists.If you're talking about sound as a sensory experience, that requires an observer. So sound doesn't exist in that sense of the word.
>>150414206Response template:“‘Prove it’ is a meaningless challenge here. Sound is pressure waves in a medium. A falling tree produces measurable pressure waves whether or not an ear detects them. We can and do record those waves with instruments. That is the proof.If you want to spiral into solipsism (‘how do you know anything exists?’), that’s not physics anymore — that’s philosophy 101 wordplay. The original question is resolved by science, not by debating whether reality itself exists.”
>>150424533Pressure waves is pressure waves. Sound is what happens when pressure waves strike the inner ear.
