Do you separate the art from the artist?
>>150416428I can and it makes me happier than most of this board.
>>150416428No. Also Sandman always sucked.
>>150416428Yeah but Gaiman is a hack writer so it doesn't matter. I don't know what he was thinking with that miracleman run.
Yes. All of the best cartoons are engineered by greedy businessmen trying to make the most successful show they could imagine for fame and profit. All of the worst ones were made by people doing the same thing but who had no imagination.
not if the art is full of the artist's depravities
>>150416428Yes. I'm not retarded.
It depends. I don't require the people whose stuff I read to be great and moral, but it's probably going to be a while before I can look at his work and not think "he wanted her to eat the poop"
no but he seems to be normal, not so impressive in any way.
>>150416428Sandman was the only genuinely notable thing he did, and of the ten volumes that make up the series, maybe four were good and the rest were just meh. Everything he's done creatively since then has been him resting on his laurels. This is especially true of his novels. You could drop every one of those suckers into the garbage can of history without doing the slightest harm to the genres he wrote in.
>>150416428i tried but he kept fucking me
>>150416428I'm content to barely acknowledge the artist even exists
>>150416428If people can do it for Burroughs and Ginsberg (who were pedophiles), they can do it for Gaiman
>>150416642Two of those guys are dead.
>>150416428Yes.
>>150416428
>>150416428I mean, coming from philosophy, literature and music, which have straight up murderers. Yeah I can do that.
>>150416428I never liked him. Gaiman being cancelled is poetic justice.
>>150416438This. I always disliked Gaiman's writing and I hate that now people assume that I care if he raped some chick. I don't I just find his writing twee.
>>150416428You really can't. Yada yada, the art is an expression of the artist and all that crap. It's brought up a lot, but it's not wrong. That art is an expression of the artist. How they see things, how they feel about things, all of that. You really can't separate the art from the artist. You just have to acknowledge that bad people can also create good art. Maybe it feels bad to like something that a bad person wrote or painted, but fuck it - you just do. You can cope by saying you have your own interpretation irrespective of the artist, but again, it's still the artist's work first - and whatever interpretation you came up with, it still was ultimately inspired by the work of art. It doesn't really make you a bad person. Shockingly, bad people are still people. They feel human things. Human things that can apply to everyone. Like if a murderer wrote a sob story about struggling to get a job. You might resonate with that story because you also have trouble getting to get a job. Whatever reasons you have for not getting a job, and whatever reasons the murderer has for not getting a job, ultimately you both resonate with struggling to get a job. Doesn't mean you're supporting the murderer. It just means you also understand what it's like to struggle with getting a job.
>>150416428sometimes
>>150416428He didn't even do anything that bad. It was consensual.
>>150416815All that just means separating art from artist.
>>150416836I see a small, sparsely furnished room and a communal shower in your future, anon.
>>150416428>Do you separate the art from the artist?Some times, and depends. Depends on how much of the work is all about the artist himself, depends on what he did to fall out of favour with the public, depends on how I feel about the quality of the work, and how I feel about the transgression. It's not a strict yes/no thing.For example, what John K did was objectively worse (legally and morally) than what Dan Schneider did, but I love the first Ren & Stimpy and I hate Dan's shows, so I don't separate Dan's art from him because if I watch one of his things, I’m thinking "this was made by a dirty fuck".
>>150416703Watch out kid! He's going to make you eat poop!
>>150416815>Like if a murderer wrote a sob story about struggling to get a jobIf you never knew he murdered someone, or say you're reading an anonymous story online, you are inherently separating the art from the artist. There's no person for you to connect the ideas to. So it's totally possible to do the same for a known criminal, but you have to not be a bitch about it.
>>150416428>depressed fuck whore with his tiny dick, pays whores willl alot of money still get called a rapist because women that chose to fuck him see money and are evil
>>150416428Well yeah, sure I can. Besides Gaiman, I can say "I hate Tom King but can admit Woman of Tomorrow was good"
>>150416438While reading Sandman I thought 'man, I've read much better trash books than this.'Then I accepted that the best comics just don't measure up to actual books.
>>150416623>This is especially true of his novels. You could drop every one of those suckers into the garbage can of history without doing the slightest harm to the genres he wrote in.I was surprised by how much I liked elements of Good Omens. Then I found out Pratchett did a lot of the writing and things clicked into place.
>>150416428Yes and no. Art is by itself an autobiographical process, it is a combination of the artist's thoughts, feelings, hopes, worries, and overall summary of their life and how they treat themselves and others. To pretend like the artist and their intent is irrelevant is not only stupid and shortsighted, it's also dangerous and breeds ignorance. >>150416815whoops someone beat me to the pointI feel like you shouldn't separate the art from the artist when the author is a proved evil person who is firmly in the zone of "has done horrible things or is advocating/campaigning for horrible things, shows no signs of repentance/reformation, and any money spent on them is making the world a worse place". I'm not gonna legally support bigots like Orson Scott Card (pirate that shit) and I'm not gonna allow for the works of pedophiles or rapists to creatively influence what I make (fuck off, Arthur C Clarke. fuck off Gaiman).>if a bigot made it, don't give them money>if a pedo/rapist made it, collectively forget their shit as if it never existed
>>150416994I've always assumed he did virtually all the actual writing. It reads very much like Discworld's more pointed books. Anything Gaiman did write must have been tuned to that style.
>>150416982the format requires lighter writing and simpler art to make the pages flow properly. i don't think it's worse so much as not the same thing, like comparing song lyrics to actual poetry or reading a movie script and comparing it to a real book.
>>150417081I think there's a distinction to be made between not separating art from artist and what we choose to do with the art. The artist of course informs the work, but that doesn't mean we can't interpret in ways other than their stated intention (if they even have one), and we are also free to make judgements about whether we feel the artist should be rewarded with our money.
>>150416428Neil Gaiman's writing was infused with so much of his style, personality, philosophy and morality that it can't really be separated from him. He was one of those writers like Alan Moore or Terry Pratchett who went out of his way to brand his work as *his*. This was considered one of the greatest strengths of his writing for ages, until certain events took place and... suddenly it wasn't.
I like the Bryan Singer X-Men movies.I tried to read Sandman, but didn't make it through the first arc. I'm not opposed to reading more of Gaiman's work though.I like John Lassester's Pixar movies.I like Harry Potter.I like Astonishing X-Men, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly (Joss Whedon).Obviously some of the people above are more guilty than others, but I find it pretty easy to separate art from artist. From my understanding, Gaiman's accusations have made people view parts of Sandman differently. There is certain stuff in Singer's X-Men movies like that too. Even beyond the stuff with the guy who played Pyro in the first movie. I still can't think of anything that would make me outright blacklist a piece of media though. I tried to get into Lovecraft one time and knowing how much a racist he was just made me amused when I can across passages where he really goes into physical descriptions of non-white people or how he'd painstakingly try to mimic an accent when writing an ESL's dialogue. To me, that just becomes an author's calling card. Like Tarantino's foot fetish.
>>150416661Dead people get different rulesI mean, hell, Oscar Wilde was blatantly fucking 16 year old boys but you only ever hear about the gay part.
>>150416428Yes, but only once the artist is dead. If my consumption of the art still supports the artist, I won't consume it, but I will still call it good if the art is good. My god, I'm going to have one hell of a good month when Neil dies and I binge Sandman.
>>150417381>Dead people get different rulesWell, yeah. They're dead.
>>150416623Coraline was what got him into the normiesphere.
>>150417378>I like John Lassester's Pixar movies.Was Lasseter really that bad? all i heard is that women at his workplace got some unwanted hugs from him
>>150416428Once they’re dead, but I don’t like Gaimen anyway.
>>150417378>I like the Bryan Singer X-Men movies.>I tried to read Sandman, but didn't make it through the first arc. I'm not opposed to reading more of Gaiman's work though.>I like John Lassester's Pixar movies.Putting Lasseter with these two is nuts, all he did was spill his spaghetti around women at his office because he's a sperg. He wasn't raping little boys or forcing women to eat his shit.
>>150417447He literally hugged everyone, he's a hugger. There's footage of him hugging Hayao Miyazaki.https://youtu.be/AS82GM7D6d0?si=eENOkN1eXl3sR7IA
>>150416855Kek
>>150417381this is somewhat dubious given the facts of the case and the actors involved, but it is probably simply because 16 was the age of consent, isn't an uncommon age of consent now and there wasn't an age of consent for gay stuff at all. also, the use of rent boys takes matters of age prefereence to a more abstract place since they're hired for willingness, not age. it's pointless to engage in anachronistic value judgement, one of the main things you're not supposed to do with history.
>>150416428Depends on how i feel about the artist
>>150416428of course. the inability to is nothing more than parasocial delusions that artists, celebrities, writers, musicians, etc. are your friends. (btw they're not)[/spolier].>>150417413that's a fair take. i still like rurouni kenshin despite the creator being a pedophile but i'm in no real hurry to get the anime on DVD or the complete manga collection. but hey that's what piracy is for i guess.
>>150416428I have a slightly different take which is that I can separate my relationship to the artist from other people’s relationships to the artist. I think it’s ok to like someone even if they’ve done shitty things. People seem to think that’s not allowed for some reason but that’s dumb, if we have to hate everyone who has wronged someone else nobody would be allowed to like anybody.
>>150417081>if a pedo/rapist made it, collectively forget their shit as if it never existedSo all those ancient Greeks should be forgotten about. Dang.
>>150417822also the bible because mary was underage and could not consent to holy ear sex
>>150417482>>150417482>Putting Lasseter with these two is nuts, all he did was spill his spaghetti around women at his office because he's a sperg.This is /co/. When the Ed Piskor thing was happening the whisper network people were comparing Gerard Jones, a man who was convicted of posessing CP to other creators like:>A guy who talked to a woman at a bar at a convention.>Another guy who posted a "Men in Comics Pledge" late because he was on vacation (the Pledge was about protecting women in the industry etc, he agreed with it but his crime was posting it late). >A guy who dated trans women and was randomly called a trans chaser by a trans person he dated..>A guy who was married and made a friend who was trans/autistic and when he did a cover for someone tangentially connected to Comicsgate (and then cancelled the cover) this friend threw him under the bus and accused him of "lovebombing" (where you shower someone with affection to control them or something), all because he wanted that friend to defend him.
>>150417484>he's a hugger.
My personal issue tends to be the fact that most people are not consistent in their claimed principles, people will say they don't want to support one artist but there will almost always be another artist they support who has done worse or comparable things with which they do support. They'll either defend this or play ignorant. I get that people have "that person" they really hate or really dislike but to a certain extent a lot of this stuff is really about performing, particularly to a social media audience, rather than any concrete stands against bad people. And then when it gets into older artists in history, people just tend to completely ignore it.
>>150416438Many are saying this
>>150417967it's been fascinating watch certain areas of the internet blow up in recent days when it turns out all the 'you should just separate the art from the artist, we only talk about the art here' people didn't think that applied to their own views, only views they didn't share.
>>150416428I don't because art isn't created in a vacuum. Anything else is a coping mechanism for people who don't want to deal with the bad feelings they might have reading a formerly enjoyed work. Fortunately there's enough reading material out there, that I don't have to worry about this - if an artist proves out to be a scumbag or has an irreconciliable ideal with my own set of morals/ideals, I just move on and find something else to enjoy.
I liked Sandman, I liked Death, I liked Books of Magic, I liked Miracleman. I listened to the accusations on the podcast. I still might update some of my collection to Absolutes for the DC/Vertigo stuff. Gaiman sounds like a cunt and some of the accusations are sick. Some of the other accusers feel like they are just jumping on a bandwagon of "he's bad/controlling".
>>150418008It just reminds me of all the media literacy debates of recent years. Death of the author, the idea that authorial intent is not the default interpretation of a work but rather the reader's interpretation matters, is constantly either the most correct thing ever or completely wrong. People will tell you that liking Homelander is bad because "the intent of The Boys is to criticise and satirise using the Homelander character" whilst at the same time these people will declare Frodo and Sam are gay and they don't care if that wasn't the intent of Tolkien because their interpretation of the text matters. It just comes down to simple hypocrisy.
>>150416428Does it even matter when I’m not giving them money??
>>150418138i understand what you mean, thought i'm not sure i'd consider playing with paper dolls and knowing it's fiction the same thing as deliberately applying the opposite political meaning to something so you can justify your own opinions. but i guess it depends on whether someone is aware that that's what they're doing with homelander or someone is taking him at face value. it can be hard to tell around here.
>>150418138there's also the issue of fanfiction that intentionally doesn't comply with canon ships not necessarily being political, while enjoying homelander for his politics definitionally is.but then you can get into really weird logical spaces like marauders fandom, where people have convinced themselves that by making fanfic about rowling characters they're someohow rejecting her as the artist and not giving her money, which is both incorrect and hypocritical. maybe this is the exact group you're talking about. taking recreation and making it a political position to hide behind.
>>150416428I can do that just fine, in most cases, but the idea of a creative who does not put themselves in their work is pure nonsense. Their work will always be an extension of them. Sometimes that's so far back in their lives that it's not who they are anymore, but sometimes when you know something about the author, it's hard not to notice that red flag was in their work all along.Like those times Neil wrote about a man keeping a woman locked up so he could rape her.
>>150416428Yes, unless the author has done something completely messed up.
>>150418024>people who don't want to deal with the bad feelingsI don't have bad feelings, since I separate the art from the artist.
>>150418138It was really funny when Redditors found out that Fallout is Anti-War and not Anti-Capitalism.
>>150416428Yeah absolutely. Love Sandman. Love Books of Magic. Love a lot of Gaiman's short fiction (particularly from the collection 'Fragile Things'). Love Batman 686.Gaiman himself was a cool guy early in his career and then became a complete faggot who was bought out by id-pol institutions like Netflix. Literally sold his soul to Netflix and antagonized fans while defending big corpos; which his past self would have been disgusted by.I care surprisingly little about him being a gross sex pervert. I think his hypocrisy during MeToo/Believe Women is much more disgusting.
>>150418138The modern media literacy debate is literally:>I'm so very clever, I get that it is satire and those plebs don't understand!>I'm so very clever, I can apply my own interpretations to things and those plebs will never look too deeply into things!
>>150418245even then. roman polanski is a sick fuck but he made some damn good movies
>>150418286The Pianist sucked
>>150418273i think the anticapitalism is there but not to anything like the same degree as the antinuclear pastiche. it's really just macro-level stuff like maybe the military-industrial complex had some downsides etc.>>150418279there's also the large group of people who lack either of those abilities and fundamentally misunderstand all kinds of critical information in stories.
>>150418273I mean it’s pretty clearly anti corrupt crony capitalism, I think you’d have a hard time arguing Vault-Tec or Nuka-Cola or any of the other pre-war corporations were ever portrayed in a positive light. And since that same corrupt crony capitalism of corporate political donations, lobbyists and bailouts is the kind most people live under today there’s not a whole lot of difference.
>>150418191People like death of the author when they want to push the supremacy of their ideas through their biases e.g. they see some queerness in the friendship between two characters, the author's intent no longer matters in their reading of it. But they get angry when people do conventionally the same thing, when someone elses biases mean they interpret something vastly different to what was intended.>>150418220>there's also the issue of fanfiction Fanfiction can just easily go into pure insanity and tumblr's general impact on fiction needs to be explored because I think it has been detrimental to art. The Legend of Korra constantly subverted expectations far before something like The Last Jedi and the creators listened to feedback direct from tumblr as well. The word fandom irks me in a way I can't properly articulate.
Depends on the artist, if an artist makes an effort to make art seperate from themselves yes but in many cases they'll be such raging egoist retards that they will seep into their art and ruin it.Believe it or not Gayman isn't one of them you can still enjoy Coraline and ignore his shitty behavior.
>>150418279And all this recent shit started because Helldivers 2 had some similar wallpaper to Starship Troopers so that whole debate around Starship Troopers started up again.
>>150418273Kek the game literally start with: war, war never changes. Are they retarded?
>>150418334sure, but that's an issue when the transformation is the same. like, in the example articles given, assuming those are real, that's the time-honored tradition of taking a text and extracting new meaning from it. the person ostensibly believes in the information they've extracted or the coherency of their interpretive argument. if that person says you're not allowed to view homelander as a hero, they're being hypocrites. if the person who says "i'm going to make sam and frodo kiss because i think it's cute, but this is for fun" also has that opinion about homelander, they're not making the same judgement in both instances.as for fanfiction, yes, it's useful to view it as a separate thing with no real limits on how it can be used, for better or worse. but i would also separate it from "fandom", because you get a lot of non-fic stuff in fandoms, like the people who loudly talk about things they'd like to see and the creators who follow along (which they should almost never actually do). often those people don't write or draw, like the puriteens hassling writers and artists.
>>150416428Yes but it's pretty difficult to talk about certain people because they can't.
>>150416428Yes, of course I do. Don't you?
>>150418273>It was really funny when Redditors found out that Fallout is Anti-War and not Anti-Capitalism.I don't blame Reddit for this. Fallout has that 1950s aspect to it, in particular its companies and products which push that gleaming pure capitalist era. The Prime show showed that there was a conspiracy between major companies to help create the conditions for the war as wells as building Vault Tec. So reading the show as anti-capitalist is a fine reading of it. Then one of the original creators said the game was originally more anti-war not anti-capitalist. So I don't think either was wrong considering that both themes are present, the issue was more talking about original game vs. the show.I would also say that Fallout has campy 50s sci-fi, a chunk of Mad Max, pulpy comics and black comedy. It had a bunch of things in it. Reducing things down to these bland ideas of it JUST being anti-x or something is just eh for me. It is more than just singular points people want to argue the toss over on Reddit.
>>150418273That’s probably what killed Tranny Vegas shilling.
I think taking anything Fallout does seriously is a mistake when the world itself constantly self destructs in canon every few years so to go "it was never x or y" when by Fallout 2 it was a totally different game is kind of just retarded there's going to be better examples for media literacy as fallacy.But this isn't /v/.This is not my beautiful wife.How did I get here.
I remember liking a band as a kid whose lead singer turned out to be a pedo and he was prosecuted for it and I never felt like listening to that band again. That was pretty clear cut, he did something evil and it killed my interested.With Gaiman, some of these accusations were previously investigated by the police in New Zealand who said there was not enough evidence and therefore no case to answer for but then they subsequently reopened their investigation post Tortoise Media podcast. Tortoise Media is backed by a lot of money, particularly from the right and one of the women leading the podcast is the sister of Boris Johnson, a former Conservative PM of the UK. (Worth mentioning another podcast broke the story too and before Tortoise Media but was pretty much entirely ignored.) It feels difficult to seperate a bunch of these things. You have some awful behaviour from a few accusers but then you have a bunch of women seemingly enamoured by rich literary dude with alternative/goth/nerd rockstar status. I remember the Warren Ellis situation and those accusers literally stated that: he did nothing illegal. They were just upset because he was essentially engaging in relationships with like 100s of women at the same time using practically the same language cut and pasted and these women, again, treated him like some nerdy rockstar.Neil is obviously accused of actual illegality (rape, sexual abuse, harassment, human trafficking). And yet so much of it is still wrapped up in his persona and all that other shit that it is hard to get past it. And now the civil lawsuits have started and before the accusations began he was already selling a LOT of memorabilia presumbly because he knew this was coming.
>>150418507It’s anti-war. Keep coping tranny bitch.
>>150418514Lost Prophets?
>>150418534Yes.
I separate the art from the artist, but when I do that I also separate my money from the artist as well.In the world of subscriptions and digital "ownership," I consider all payments for any non-essential products to be donations, so if I don't like you, I'm not donating my money.
>>150418437Acknowledging an Amazon/Netflix show when talking about canon or interpretation should be a crime punishable by public flogging.
>>150418519It's anti war anti fascism anti blah blah not anti capitalism blah blah.I don't give a shit what some nigger game dev said it was about when they instantly got the boot anyhow right after and the entire series was different yet a retread of the same shit anyway. If you're going to say a piece of art is about x but is being misinterpreted as a weapon by leftists at least pick a IP that hasn't been bastardized 300 times.I'm just here for the lovers lab sex mods. Get fucked.
>>150418561See>>150418519
>>150418542Gotcha.In regards to your original post, I'm reading it as if you care more about legality than ethics. In particular, your final paragraph leads me to this reading of your post as a whole.Would it be fair to say that you are able to separate the art from artist to a point, but when something that you find over the line (which seems to be an actual crime rather than just scummy behavior) you are unable to do so and cannot enjoy the works?What about the inverse. Can you like an artist despite his/her work being complete shit and/or offensive? I feel that way about Liefeld. I think most of his comics are pretty shit but he seems like a decent enough dude.
>>150416428>separate the art from the artistFor Illustrators, yeah. For writers, no, it's hard to ignore that they have their shitty opinions when they tend to show through in the writing.
>>150418574You sound like a retard to anyone who isn't a midwit. Pick a better example in the future or get called out. All I'm saying. Fuck trannies but fuck the jewish corporations who enable them too that you keep supporting even after they sold out everything you claim to love.
>>150418507>when by Fallout 2 it was a totally different gameYeah, a bad one kek
>>150416428See that he was never convicted and most likely his cases will be thrown out I don't see the point in doing that. But its much like /co/ not to look into these things.
>>150418580>I'm reading it as if you care more about legality than ethics.It isn't necessarily that I believe in legality more so than ethics, it is more just how one situation can be so clear cut and these other situations are so fucking messy, grey, bordering on failed relationships and affairs as much as anything. Which goes into all kinds of other avenues about what Gaiman did and how these people reacted to it. In particular all the themes of #metoo stuff. Gaiman said to believe all women when it came to #metoo and this played into his own persona as a good wholesome liberal guy but then he denies these allegations. Some people still engaged with Gaiman far past the point of alleged impropriety he afflicted upon them. It is such a fucking mess. Narrative, counter narrative. Gaiman built up a persona as the alternative/goth/nerd nice guy author (pic related) and wanting to believe the opposite is almost that kneejerk, never have faith in your heroes thing for so many. I think it is VERY telling how quiet the overall comics industry has been on the question of Gaiman whilst they come after lesser creators for minor transgressions. It just feels like all the information out there is simple narratives people want to push and finding the truth out is hard. The Lost Prophets situation was so dire and clear cut it is like bam, no thanks. But with these situations they are in the bog, the mire, the swamp of allegation, counter allegation, all wrapped up in money. >Can you like an artist despite his/her work being complete shit and/or offensive? I've met a bunch of creators who /co/ routinely hates on like Bendis who seem like genuinely decent enough people.
>>150418406>if that person says you're not allowed to view homelander as a hero, they're being hypocrites. if the person who says "i'm going to make sam and frodo kiss because i think it's cute, but this is for fun"Women. Just say women. It’s women who go “lulz you’re not supposed to idolize Patrick Bateman/Joker/Homelander” while simultaneously doing the exact same shit in fan fiction.Men don’t do that shit.
>>150418554I wasn't really commenting on canon as a whole, just that the context of the situation was pretty clear that most people at the time were talking about the show.
>>150418514>I remember the Warren Ellis situation and those accusers literally stated that: he did nothing illegal. They were just upset because he was essentially engaging in relationships with like 100s of women at the same time using practically the same language cut and pasted and these women, again, treated him like some nerdy rockstar.The curious thing I find is that they claim Ellis didn't do anything illegal and they insist they don't want him canceled... but their supporters insist Ellis needed to be canceled and nobody corrects them. Which is it?
>>150418675>better reveal that my real problem is that i'm an incellol men do that shit all the time. at least 75% of this website is guys who shit their pants the second you have an opinion about something that isn't theirs.
>>150418675Hit the nail on the head right here.
>>150418696>better reveal that my real problem is that i'm an incelYes.
>>150418714I appreciate your honesty, anon.
>>150418678They made a whole website about it:https://somanyofus.com/This is the conclusion:>A final thing that some of us are open to is the possibility of a mediated transformative justice action with Warren Ellis. There is still a chance for him to be of help on a larger scale. If Warren wants to get in touch with us to start this process, we are interested in cultivating healing, accountability, resilience, and safety for all involved. Specifically, we would like to see Warren:>Acknowledge his actions in their entirety>Acknowledge his pattern of harmful behavior>Acknowledge that he has callously hurt people>Contribute to transformative work to dismantle the systems which allowed this to go on>To be clear, our aim is not to see Warren Ellis punished, we are here to look forward. We believe it is important to amplify awareness of a pattern to change the culture of complicity. Emotional abuse, despite not being criminalized in many places, should be recognized as a real and lasting violation. We tell these stories so that anyone can recognize the dangerous nature of this type of behavior and protect themselves and others.>We also ask those reading this to understand that writers can’t work alone, and many of the artists, colorists, flatters, letterers, editors, and other collaborators who have worked with Warren over the years still deserve recognition and support for the work they published with him.>To Warren’s supporters, we’d like to say that we felt the shock, betrayal, confusion, and anger these revelations may be bringing up in you now. We hope that, like us, you will be able to channel this new awareness into fuel for positive change in your communities, and within yourselves.For me this goes into the "we are raising awareness" type meaninglessness. A huge part of this stuff to me feels like a level of cope that ultimately they were tricked by such a mediocre person they idealised too much. This is literally forum drama to an extent.
>>150418675You got that one right.
>>150418729It's entirely forum drama. In the old livejournal days this would have ended up on Fandom Wank because that's all it is. Ellis's cancelling was always ridiculous.
>>150416428No, because ultimately one's views shape one's works, which is too difficult for the vast multitudes of degenerates who use this site, too shy to admit to being not "based" and maybe a bit "pozzed".
>>150416436First post, worst post
>>150418729>https://somanyofus.com/I clicked on a random testmonial>I don’t know how I ended up here. I’m a nobody, unimportant, not connected to the industry in any way. I was 25 years old.>Warren and I connected initially on Tumblr, and then on Snapchat.>I was a fan. I didn’t think I was young or naive enough to be groomed or manipulated, but Warren exploited my love of his writing to entice me to send nudes and sexual messages over the course of months.>In the beginning, we discussed where we lived and other details about our lives and his work. Eventually the conversations and our (I don’t know what to call it) escalated to relationship talk. He said he wanted to write a character for me.>He kept asking for more and more photos and videos. He asked for me to submit to him, call him sir, Mister. He called me “little girl”. He focused on my lips a lot. He had me send posed photos of self punishment. And I sent them because he was Warren Ellis and I thought he cared about me and I was proving myself to him.>And I sent them because he was Warren EllisWhat the fuck is this. We are talking about Warren Ellis, not some attractive rich Hollywood celebrity. Why the fuck are 25 year olds fan girling themselves so hard over fucking Warren Ellis of all people. WHAT THE FUCK.
>>150418797I cut out half of it:>This continued to escalate until I became so uncomfortable with his requests that I eventually blocked him.>I didn’t recognize the depth of his manipulation until it was too late. I feel very fortunate to have had the physical safety of distance, but the mental effects are long-lasting. I’m still shaken, I’m still hurt.>My solace is in the knowledge that he couldn’t take anything from me when I ended it.>I‘m lucky I didn’t need him.>that I eventually blocked him.Seriously, how hard was that. The tone of their writing is like they are talking about a serial rapist. Insane.
>>150416428Do you?
>>150418797Comics fangirls can be surprisingly hardcore.
>>150418797Some of them are "he ghosted me"
>>150418797>she was literally 25 years old, you sick fuck!
All of the Ellis stuff just boils down to:>I was a starstruck groupie who had a consensual casual relationship with someone semi-famous>I now wish to act like a rape victim with PTSD for attention and sympathyit is utterly retarded that anyone would give these cunts the time of day. It's an actual fucking insult to people who have experienced real sexual assault.
I can but I honestly don't think I've ever read any of his stuff
>>150418838https://somanyofus.com/testimonials#anonymous-2002-2012This one was 16... and he asked for dirty photos. Uh-oh
>>150416428Most artists cant even do thatWhy should i do it for them
>>150418858It happens all the time in the music scene. Like - what do they expect when they message famous guys on social media? They hope for romance when all anyone wants from mildly attractive 20 somethings is tiddy pics.
>>150416815Wow you took three paragraphs to say nothing
>>150418883The music scene is weird because many major people were fucking underage teenagers but it is almost like, because they were cool no one is wanting to cancel those people.
>>150416428Depends on how obnoxious they are.
>>150418895you can still see that with the ellis groupies. we already have their quoted mission statement where they say they just want him to own up and don't want him punished, because he didn't commit a crime. and he did own up to it, i think? the publishers cancelled him more or less immediately, not because of prolonged outcry about a failure to do so.
>>150418908What did Ellis do
>>150418918to summarize: he was a large-scale slutty creep, and his fangirls found out and shared details. he admitted this, and they didn't really accuse him of anything beyond that, but the companies still made him pay the public embarrassment fee.
>>150418918Read: >>150418729>https://somanyofus.com/
>>150418895The whole idea of “grooming” applying to teenagers rather than pre-pubescent kids is very new. It used to be a taken as a given that teens did fuck and wanted to fuck regardless of what the law said, now menstruating 15yos with big tits are treated like sexless little kids who wouldn’t have done anything unless they were “groomed”.
>>150416428There are probably people who draw, write, voice act, act in, direct, or otherwise work on things we all enjoy who have all sorts of habits, desires, even fetishes that many would find unusual, strange, repulsive or abnormal - not to mention illegal or otherwise actionable in morality, contract law or criminal law. We just don't know about it.Harvey Weinstein always presented as an unattractive, overweight and often obnoxious presence in interviews or something like a award's show. I've seen and enjoyed plenty of Miramax movies he had some level of involvement in and it's not going to change the literal truth that some of those, even those that had some levels of flaws, were things that I (and others) enjoyed and appreciated. See >>150416450, >>150416642, >>150416713, >>150416507 and probably more but I'm not going to wade and parse through this whole thread.Gaiman is just the current person whose interior life has been found to be wanting - and he won't be the last. There are many we will never find this out about it. You have to take creative expression of any sort on it's own merits - but that doesn't mean you don't decide not to say re-watch or re-read something, either for good or for at least a good while.
>>150418941It's mostly just a way for women to avoid the consequences of their actions, ain't nobody whining and moaning if some 15 year old boy nerds out like a fanboy and wants to fuck some mildly famous chick in her 30s.
>>150418668>I think it is VERY telling how quiet the overall comics industry has been on the question of Gaiman whilst they come after lesser creators for minor transgressions.Ed Piskor had a 16 year old talking to him, a girl who was being egged on by her boyfriend, who was a fan, to talk to Ed. They talked about art. She posted like two conversations that looked weird but in context they were referring to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas so perfectly fine in context. She never wanted to cancel him either, just thought his behaviour was weird.The comicsgaters came hard after Ed, in part because Cartoonist Kayfabe talked more about comics and not culture wars. They made loads of videos and claimed he was gonna be a pedo or something (that never happened, most quietly deleted their videos and then said the left killed him, RIP etc, one guy though kept saying it).The left, especially the twitter/blue sky whipser network came at Ed HARD. Mostly because they thought he was a dweeb, were envious of his career and channel. They spread all kinds of things, implying they had all heard insidious stories about Ed.Fantagraphics instantly backed away, as did all his friends, the fucking local news DOXXED him, his art show was cancelled, his career was on the ropes. And he killed himself. Heck, even his own Kayfabe subreddit came after him and someone made this picture, comparing Ed and others who did minor faux pas with Gerard Jones who got arrested for cp. And yet most of these people have had little to say about Gaiman. The truth is, it isn't what you do that matters, it is who you are. Gaiman is wealthy rockstar of the literary/comics world. Ed was a dweeb, obsessed with the medium. They picked the easy victim and killed him. But Gaiman was their hero so they don't do anything to him.
>>150418982>They picked the easy victim and killed him.To cycle this back to the topic of the thread, people choose their victims carefully. People can seperate the art from the artist IF they are an easier target.
I think it's impossible for people who aren't fucked up to make novel content
>>150419036I think everybody's fucked up, it's a question of how in-touch someone is with that versus how much they've pushed it into their subconscious to appear normal.
>>150418982She was 17. And she only shared texts of the mild accusations. She suspiciously never released the backup for the more incriminating stuff.>fucking local news DOXXED himAnd doxed his parents. They were relentless.
>>150419090I'm surprised no one asked the news station who told them to go after Piskor
>>150419090>She suspiciously never released the backup for the more incriminating stuff.She never had more incriminating stuff. She released 6 screenshots. And the weirdest were literally in a conversation about Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and mentioning crime, hence he said naughty girl, or something to that effect. They talked over a period of years, on and off. And then when it blew up she said she didn't hate him, didn't want to cancel him, he didn't do anything illegal, she just felt slightly groomed or that it was weird in hindsight. At most he did invite her to star round if she ever went to a comic convention, but that was when she was in her 20s and he had made that offer to plenty of people before.
>>150419110>At most he did invite her to star round if she ever went to a comic conventionThat’s what I’m referring to. The screenshots of the supposed invitation to crash at his place never dropped.
>>150416428Depends how bad what they did is.
Of course I do. I do the same with Warren Ellis, and outside of comics Sion Sono and Roman Polanski
>>150419110>she said she didn't hate him, didn't want to cancel him, he didn't do anything illegal, she just felt slightly groomed or that it was weird in hindsightThis is bullshit though. She either had regrets after Ed's career started to fall apart OR she's the dumbest fucking person on the planet because she thought she could drop accusations like that on social media and that Ed would somehow be unaffected.I don't think Ed is completely innocent, but I don't buy her "I didn't want any of this to happen" bullshit either.
>>150416428Yes but Sandman was still boring.
>>150419303More for context
>>150419303>little highschool girlsOh no, not the innocent 17 year old little girls.
>>150416428I support his actions as a person, don't care about his "art".
>>150418138>People will tell you that liking Homelander is bad because "the intent of The Boys is to criticise and satirise using the Homelander character"media literacy is just a cope buzzword nowadays for shit like this.liking the only fleshed out character on the boys outside of A-train & soldier boy isn't really the political statement that the showrunners and redditors think it is when all the other characters suck.
>>150419303>>150419311Ed Piskor was a wigger but sheesh what a fucking bitch. Im guessing no consequences came of driving the man to suicide
>>150418481nah what killed that was obsidian's spiritual successor to new vegas and answer to fallout 76, the outer worlds being a massive flop.the second nail were those same redditors & trannies latching onto cyberpunk 2077 when the edgerunners anime kicked off and made it cool to like that game.and the third and final nail was obsidian's elder scrolls killer, avowed being an even bigger flop than outer worlds.
>>150418580>Can you like an artist despite his/her work being complete shit and/or offensive?NTA but mike pondsmith seems like a cool & chill dude despite the fact that i think cyberpunk goes too far into self parody for my tastes to take seriously when it's not about his OCs like morgan or johnny.
>>150418982>>150419303>>150419311Ed Piskor's situation always makes me feel so miserable
>>150416428I want to but some artists really want you to care about their personal life. My favorite artists are the one who have a personal account I don't know about and an art account where they just post art and barely anything else. The Mysterious types. The absolute best kind of artist.
>>150416428Yes. I idolize an author who cyberbullies me.
>>150416428It depends.Some pieces of art are too intertwined with the controversial nature of the creator to the point that deliberate disassociation can be insurmountable.>Marion Zimmer Bradley in The Mists of Avalon had Morgan Le Fey do a weird form of victim-blaming in her narration for what was happening to a young girl that was disturbingly similar to the allegations her daughter made against her and her husband in later years.>Louis C.K. had that whole comedy segment where he gloated about jerking off to some midwestern conservative religious straw (wo)man before the stuff about him jerking off in front of women got him cancelled that makes it hard to look back on.>Jimmy Saville can't be separated by Jim Will Fix It was where much of his grooming and assaults took place behind the scenes>Captain Jack Harkness of Doctor Who was a lovable omnisexual who would not-so-subtly flirt at times but John Barrowman got cancelled for sexually harassing cast and crew on set by flashing his penis>Victor Salva raped 12 year old Nathan Forrest Winters on the set of Clown House>Dan Schneider's obsession with feet is infamous as well as his grooming and abuses and solicited kids online to send bare feet pics with the excuse that he just found "feet funny">Asia Argento groomed her child co-star Jimmy Bennett on the set of The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things when they played mother and son and extorted him financially for years after the fact.
I do when it's easy. For example Doug Tennaple has several works that treat Christianity in a borderline blasphemous way, so it's easy to separate his works from the man himself.Unfortunately it's very easy to see sex pest mannerisms and methodology seeping through Gaiman's prose and chosen topics of interest.
>>150416428No.
>>150418254Whatever works for you.
>>150421092Glad you mention Jack Harkness. This is his contribution to society:
>>150418024>Anything else is a coping mechanism for people who don't want to deal with the bad feelings they might have reading a formerly enjoyed work.nah because "muh ethical consumption" is fucking retarded when you consider how your food, clothes, electronics, etc. are made or think about how your favorite actor or musician was likely a regular at epstein or diddy's gatherings.unless you have a solution to those problems it's all just performative nonsense.
>>150416436BASED
>>150419356kek
>>150418933So, nothing.
>>150418982>the comicsgatersNah nah nah, you don't get to just say that shit, ComicsGate didn't go after him, woke assholes did
>>150421783Yeah it's like socialists buying Starbucks every morning and using the latest iPhone. You don't really believe in the shit you say.
>>150416428AI fixes this
>>150422525They literally all did. Both sides of politics came at him
>>150422501He was always well known for fucking every goth fangirl he could. And he and Amanda Palmer were swingers. I think part of it is that he's getting old. He can't flirt and pick up girls the same way he used to. It was cool when he was in his 20s and 30s. Now he's a creepy old man.Unrelated, but Amanda Palmer's riotous, noisy "music" is awful. It's all just loud angry noise about being molested by a piano teacher.
>>150421092Eh, Louis CK at least finally got his shit together and his behavior didn't escalate. He's had a bunch of tours and won an award for one of his albums recently. He went through a scandal, but he wasn't "cancelled". I fucking hate that term, just call a scandal a scandal.
>>150416428>separate the art from the artistAnother meaningless cope phrase on par with "let people enjoy things"
>>150416428>separate the art from the artistIt's an old excuse to defend a criminal.
>>150421092>>Captain Jack Harkness of Doctor Who was a lovable omnisexual who would not-so-subtly flirt at times but John Barrowman got cancelled for sexually harassing cast and crew on set by flashing his penisNo one accused Barrowman of sexual harassment. He was just a party gay guy doing it for jokes more than doing it for jokes and not sexual gratification. Hence why people didn't come hard for him for his behaviour.
Neil Gaiman wrote a Sandman story about a has been writer gaining possession of a Muse he would repeatedly rape to gain back his creative juices.
>>150421783>think about how your favorite actor or musician was likely a regular at epstein or diddy's gatheringsIf I do a background check on an actor or musician and find something that disagrees with my morals or ethics then as mentioned above, I drop them and move on. Generally speaking I don't engage with artists that would have moved in those groups.>unless you have a solution to those problems it's all just performative nonsenseIt highly depends. If a person virtue signals on social media about the evils of an artist, but is fine with another who did similar things for whatever reason, I would call that perfomative.Ultimately one can be as active or inactive in choosing the artists one chooses to engage with as one likes. I can't make anyone like or dislike a piece of art based on the person behind it, and I'm not going to tell someone how to behave if I don't like the stuff their reading. However, I'm recognizant of the fact that art isn't created in a vacuum, the art is the artist, and I choose not to engage with artists who go against my own personal ethics. Perhaps my initial reaction post was a bit inflammatory, so I will take the coping part - everyone has a different take on the matter.>>150422569>You don't really believe in the shit you say.I do.
>>150417701Doesn't it cut both ways? Like sure I could think an artist is /my guy/ and inflate the worth of his art because of that, but I can also think he's Literally Hitler and shit on his art without real merit. It's not quite a parasocial thing, its just bringing in teritary aspects instead of looking at the primary source
Someone once told me you can praise and like people's actions but obsessing over the person will always bring disappointment. You ultimately don't know any of these people. With Gaiman, people became too attached to his persona and he played it up. With someone like JK Rowling people became enamoured by the narrative of her story, starting from little and becoming huge with this huge hot that landed at the right time. The problem is people are buying into simple narratives around people, they get too invested and when something happens the issue for them is more that they felt tricked. Then they overcompensate.
>>150423038Yeah put a magnifying glass to anyone's lives and you'll find something fucked up. And I gotta say, the Harvey Weinstein thing - it wasn't justified, but people knew about it for decades. They attacked him opportunistically, his abuse of actresses for casting couch shenanigans was no revelation. Again, doesn't justify it but there's a real real politik to these things that boils down to people just doing what's best for their own interests rather than a genuine interest in justice
>>150422731You must be fun at parties
>>150416428No
>>150422826That's what a criminal would say
>>150416902i think dan is arguably worse than john k due to the fact that hes a fat fucking foot fiend
>>150416436FPBP
>>150421783My problem is always that some people are hyper aware of some problematic people but absolutely clueless of others so they overcompensate by punishing people who are ignorant of who they are hyper aware of. J.K. Rowling has been mentioned a few times ITT and she is a perfect example. The average person is completely unaware of the trans debate around her, plenty of people still love her and Harry Potter and some people are aware of it but don't care. But the perpetually online leftist is hyper aware of her and overreact when they hear people still buying Harry Potter, but we see with the Hogwarts Legacy game, the truth is most people are unaware of her views and then plenty of people who are aware don't care. But those same people who do care still support games from developers that have had sex abuse scandals or abused workers or have awful CEOs and handwave it all away, even when they've done worse than J.K. simply because they are big companies and they can play ignorant.
>>150416428I still enjoy his work. I'll probably hesitate before checking out future stuff, but that's okay. Entertainment is extremely competitive for my free time, so I'm not too sorry about simply choosing other options that don't have this sort of baggage.
>>150417423>Coraline was what got him into the normiesphere.Yeah, we're talking about completely different kinds of notability to each other.
>>150422525They did. As far as I'm concerned Ethan Van Sciver and Jon Del Arroz are equally as culpable as Alex De Campi and Ramon Villalobos. Hell, both Del Arroz and De Campi kept smearing Piskor months after his death.
>>150426410>De CampiHer comments post his death were particularly egregious. She's a ghoul.
>>150416428I can, but I won't.
>>150416428You can’t for Gayman because he made being a hecking good human bean a core part of his “brand”. Faggot was always campaigning for trannies and other crap in comics, so when he got outed as a rapist it destroyed him because his entire fanbase was BPD afflicted bisexuals.
>>150416428Absolutely. My favourite writers and musicians would hate me, and my favourite drawfags are deplorable motherfuckers.
>>150426491Thankfully I think she's been quietly blacklisted, she hasn't done any comic work since 2020.
>>150422333>>150425304>It's easy to defend heinous acts and thoughts when you're anonymousYou all have 35 trillion TBs of child porn and your greatest hero is Jeffrey Epstein because you want to become him but not Jewish.
>>150427488That sounds oddly specific, like something you're doing
>>150416428>separateWith what?
>>150427713>be random leftytroon>make yourself an accessory to murder>have child pornography on your phone when you're arrestedlmoa
>>150427423>my favourite drawfagsEveryone into it that deep should be drawfag level at least. You shouldn't need to pay or wait on a fellow 4chan-using motherfucker.
>>150427734Yeah that's why I'm suspicious of >>150427488it sounds like something he's doing
>>150427713>>150427734>>150427775>"everyone who calls me a pedophile must be a pedophile!" — Degenerates who defene cartoon childporn (e.g. lolicon/shotacon)I hate pornographers making their cartoon child porn, among other things, and scumbags will defend them under the banner of "free speech," which is a vicious lie designed to mislead people into supporting Liberalism for hundreds of years, a system that is literal poison
>>150421092MZB is forever loathsome.
>>150427488>>150428125Yep, definitely sounds like you're involved with something heinous, anon. That's a lot of protesting too much there
>>150425280But John K actually had sex with an underagey, and allegedly had CP on h8s computer.
>>150428163>"methink the person doth protest to much," i.e. he shouldn't've protested at all"You're a pedophile
>>150419303>>150419311>HES A FUCKING CREEP OLD MAN WHO HITS ON TEENAGERS>I didn't want him to kill himself>I just wanted to ruin his career, reputation, and life. the fuck did she think he was gonna do after she posted shit like this?
>>150428213Thanks for confirming you're a pedophile again by your own defensiveness
>>150416428You don't. Guys who get pussy and guys who don't get pussy think too much about pussy and their art suffers but men who take the pussy are not hindered by such notions and their art thrives.
>>150428328That he'd put the fries in the bag and she'd get a job for being a snitch for the optics.
>>150428361I'm not a pedophile, but your dodging only strengthens the claim that you are a pedophile.
>>150417495>>150417381That was in the 1800s there were no age of consent laws.
>>150428391Your projecting and your dodging strengthens the claim you're a pedophile.
>>150428432>pot calling kettle black momentJust admit that you have child porn, pedophile, we know that you defend sick fucks and their works, stop denying it.
>>150428453You sound like you're desperate to find more for your collection, pedophile. You can't hide your sick obsession with your feigned moralism
>>150427488>>150427734>>150428125>>150428213>>150428453So this guy really is a pedophile, right?
>>150428481>>150428493>"I'll call anyone who criticizes me a pedophile!" — pedophile
>>150416428I just straight up don't care what the person who made a piece of art is like in most cases and try not to find out. If the people who made something I love is genuinely a piece of shit person and I find out I just avoid consuming their art in a way they would make money from but I'm not gonna pretend someone being a bad person makes their art automatically bad.
I'm always glad that the stuff about David and Leigh Eddings came out after they died.
I don't need to because I'm not a moralfag. If anything if the author is controversial it makes a piece of media more interesting to me
I watched a couple of episodes of the new season of Sandman and it sucks. If Gaiman didn't get cancelled there would be no way it would get a third season
>>150416428How's he doing these days anyway?
>>150416428>Do you separate the art from the artist?No.
>>150429925He got tricked into sex by a Jew.
>>150429552same, the author being fucking crazy is half the appeal for me at this point
>>150416428I can to an extent. I think I don't really separate it from the Artist because it has intrinsically a piece of the Artist's soul. I just don't shy away from interacting with that piece, that part of that Artist. But the background can be important in understanding the piece, the same way deconstructing it is important.On the other hand I can't separate Philosopher from Philosophy. Sartre, Foucault I'm looking at you.
>>150429552Unfortunately, some people put up with bad media for the sake of this.
>>150428509But that's what >>150427488 has been doing
>>150416428I really hope people dig up dirt of Terry Prachet.The absolute seething would be glorious.
