Which comic ended up hurting the entire marvel comic universe more? Civil War or Avengers Dissembled?
>>150488638The easy answer is Civil War but Avengers Dissembled is honestly the start of the "current" Marvel universe everything about it leads to the current shit show we have todayIt leads to everything people have issues with nowadays >House of M>Civil War>World War Hulk >Secret Invasion >Avengers Vs X Men
>>150488638Civil War revealed Peter Parker right? ...which led to OMD... and, thus, ruined Marvel's flagship title for decades.Yeah. That one.
Dissembled laid the ground work for all the shit Bendis pulls it also imo basically starts the death of Ultimate. Ultimate was built on being this edgy new universe where the heroes worked with the government more or to make sense in the "modern" day only then the actual 616 universe itself starts taking on more and more ultimateisms itself until Civil War killed it for good combined with Ultimatum
>House of M exists due to this one panel
>>150488638I don't think you'd have Civil War without Disassembled.
>>150488795Wasnt editorial pushing for everyone to copy Ultimate though? Its why you had shit like Y’know everyone talks about how awful the Ultimates were, but a lot of the Avengers just randomly became awful after Busiek finished his run in the early 00’s too, some in much more personal ways. In some cases it felt like they were trying to see how fast they could run back all the character work
>>150488893>Secret War (2004) has Nick Fury invade Latveria, results in his removal from SHIELD. Maria Hill takes over and no one trusts her, likewise she doesn’t trust the heroes.>Disassembled destroys the Avengers. They re-assemble of course, but after taking a serious hit.>The Illuminati is formed, consisting of heroes who arguably have good intentions, but their secrecy shows they don’t trust everyone. This has consequences later on.>House of M and E for Extinction kills/depowers most of the mutants. This leads to their Extinction era later on, as well as storylines like Messiah Complex.>Civil War sees the government regulate super heroes and lines are drawn. Heroes fight heroes, heroes die.>Secret Invasion capitalizes on that distrust with literal body-snatchers threatening Earth. No one knows who to trust.>Osborn seize power and ushers in the Dark Reign. A team of Dark Avengers is formed along with The Cabal, the public champions Norman Osborn as one of the most powerful men in America, he becomes a hero in the media.Bendis has made marvel comics basically unreadable for 20 years, /co/ over the years has been buck broken in being apathetic to marvel comics as a result
>>150488751The Spider-Man unmasking in Civil War only happened because they were already planning OMD, and knew they'd be walking it back a year later. They didn't do OMD because Civil War "caused it".>>150488839Despite Claremont and Whedon having both set up plots within the X-books themselves to get rid of all the gorillion NPC mutants that Morrison had added, we instead got House of M, with Wanda used as a plot device and thrown under the bus, all because Loeb heard about what Bendis was doing in Disassembled and asked how Magneto was going to react.
>>150488705>It leads to everything people have issues with nowadaysI get what you mean, but the things you listed all happened over a dozen years ago. How many notable things since can you sincerely put at Disassembled's feet?
>>150488638Probably the start of the Ultimate universe. They asked Jackson if they could use his likeness and he said yes if he gets to play the real Fury in moviesThat was the problem. You can bitch and moan that 'muh spidey and mj love story reee' all you want but that was just nerd shit. When Marvel started catering to the masses, it was full on woke versions wherever possible which inherently killed comics
>>150488705Agreed. Civil War was the damn breaking but Disassembled was were the cracks where formed. I was just getting back into marvel too at the time but goddamn it just completely shifted. It was exactly this time that comics started to feel like they were being made by and for people who don't like comics.
>>150489080MCUs origins were always a much more cleaner and less edgy Ultimate its what makes its all ironic
>>150488839Jane was honestly just turned into this massive bitch for no reason
It depresses me to no end that comics like this somehow get treated as quality works but somehow the 90s are the black sheep decade. I blame Wizard.
>>150489020>Bendis has made marvel comics basically unreadable for 20 yearsYour examples stop 15 years ago. I'm willing to agree that you can attribute that era to Bendis, but how much after that you can say is squarely his fault?He creates Miles... in a containment universe that was blown up because sales. He created Riri... as part of a push of new generation superheroes that was mostly out of his hands. He wrote Civil War II... which was a cross between a synergy push, a Carol push, and an Inhumans push.He certainly didn't make things better, and some characters are still suffering for it, but it's disingenuous to blame him for making Marvel unreadable.
Civil War was when events and out-of-character behaviors became the norm, and Marvel hasn't felt like Marvel ever since then. It feels like Marvel has just been one awful toy line or mmorpg since Civil War. So, I hopped over the DC. It was fun. You know, until 2011. Now, I only read comics that I know will be good. That's why I don't read or buy many cape comics-- because, quite frankly, they suck.Capeshit was the worst interest I could have picked. I don't like that Alan Moore was right about them. They are incapable of highbrow nuance in the metamodernist era. People who read new comics do so at the behest of shallow stan-twitter accounts, tumblr bloggers they thirst for, and other measures of social dupery such as the marketing nightmare machine. The parasocial paradigm they present mocks me, and I want to know why I should even write comics when the public becomes this shallow.Why even live?
>>150489233It's fandom's fault just as much. Especially how many people seem to unironically love all these event stories just because big changes happened. Doesn't matter if the change was good or bad to them.Marvel themselves are to blame for what appears to have been a policy of treating Quesada becoming EIC as a sort of Year Zero and acting like nothing before then was good or mattered outside of a small number of stories too well-known for them to deny.Eventually you'll all come to realize there's a sickness in the soul of Marvel fandom, where so many stories are hailed as classics just because someone important died.
>>150489377>Your examples stop 15 years ago.Only because since then he's ruined DC
Onslaught ruined Marvel the most. You can not deny this
>>150489743It's what drove me out of marvel. I do sort of regret it. Reborn was a shit show but I did like Return and Thunderbolts when I later went back into them. Of course by then bendis was already in the drivers seat so it was a short revival. Even Johns Avengers was... eh
>>150488751>>150489040The story that gives Spidey organic webbing had "Road to Avengers Disassembled" or something like that in the cover, btw
>>150489884The organic webbing was just a movie synergy thing, it wasn't anything to do with plans for Civil War, the unmasking, or OMD. They just used OMD as an excuse to reverse it, either readers didn't like it, or the writers and editors just wanted to go back to normal.Also, the "Avengers Disassembled" name was used as a sort of umbrella title for completely unconnected storylines going on in Avengers, Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, FF, and one of the Spider-Man books. It's just that when people refer to "Avengers Disassembled", they're usually referring not to the whole event, but just to the storyline in the main Avengers book, which was actually titled "Chaos".
>>150489884Who gives a shit about organic webs?Compared to the horrors that were unleashed in the wake of the two events in OP the webs are a complete non-issue. It's like complaining about the tacky bedsheets in the 1st class cabins on the Titanic.
>>150489743>Onslaught ruined Marvel the most. You can not deny thisIf you were heavily invested in the pre-Onslaught runs on FF, Avengers or Iron Man, and really hated the Heroes Return runs, I can see why you'd feel like this, but Onslaught didn't really have any other long term effects, all the heroes who 'died' were back a year later, and nothing from Heroes Reborn really mattered much.
>>150490042Agreed. Onslaught was basically just Marvel flushing the toilet on a handful of titles that had already gone to shit. Remember Iron Man had "The Crossing" just prior to Onslaught... he was better off dead.That being said, post-Onslaught most Marvel titles stayed in the mud. Thunderbolts was excellent, Exiles was pretty cool and Avengers had a massive resurgence under Busiek/Perez but most of Marvel stayed dead. Spider-man died around Maximum Carnage. Cap fizzled during the tail end of Gruenwald's run... I mean Cap-Wolf was fun but it was clearly out of ideas. X-Men died with Claremont's departure.
>>150490490Reminder that The Crossing and other storylines in the Avengers and FF books around the same time all only happened out of editorial's desperation to try and get some attention on those books to try and prevent Heroes Reborn. The Waid/Garney Cap run was another thing that only happened in a failed effort to prevent Heroes Reborn.>Exiles was pretty coolThat's not even a 90s book, and What If? was better.>Spider-man died around Maximum Carnage.Outside of people having reasonable objections to the truce with Venom, I'm not really seeing the argument here. Even if you hated Maximum Carnage itself, once it was over, it was over. Maybe there were too many Spider-Man books, but there were usually some that were solid. After the Clone Saga the books were just flailing around aimlessly, then the 1998 relaunch and the storylines leading up to it were where things really fall apart.>Cap fizzled during the tail end of Gruenwald's run... I mean Cap-Wolf was fun but it was clearly out of ideas.I don't know, the whole "Cap is dying" storyline that ran for a year and a half had some good material in it.>X-Men died with Claremont's departure.Claremont had been running on fumes for years and probably should have moved on to another book a long time ago, it might have revitalized him. Hardcore X-fags won't listen, but the average 90s X-Men comic after Claremont isn't any worse than a 90s book he wrote, and some of them are better, at least until the last year or two of the 90s, which were really bad. X-Men doesn't really die until the 2000s, where it gets changed into something that just isn't X-Men anymore, but it's not changing back.
I found this old Avengers popularity poll. Funny to see Hank as number 2.>>150490490I've started reading Marvel Masterworks for the Avengers, just got to the point Zemo died.Is Kang Dynasty a good jumping off point or should I consider going further?
>>150490749>I found this old Avengers popularity poll. Funny to see Hank as number 2.Look at how few people bothered taking part in that poll. Even with sales figures as bad as they are today for comics, that would be a negligible segment of the audience.For whatever it's worth though, the results do seem to be generally weighted towards characters who were in the one Avengers book at the time, this would be around the time West Coast Avengers had been replaced with Force Works.>Is Kang Dynasty a good jumping off point or should I consider going further?If you're going to go that far, you may as well read the Geoff Johns run that follows, most of it is pretty good.
>>150489743I just can't hate the thing that set the stage for Thunderbolts.
>>150491070Love how that speech mogs current comics without even trying.
>>150490490Well, Onslaught was a pretty crap story but you're right. It was far from being the cause. Even leading up to it a lot of titles weren't in great condition. You had the Crossing, Clone Saga and a pretty crap time for F4. It's always just easy to point at big events as the culprit. >>150491070Thunderbolts really took advantage of a bad situation. Which I suppose was on brand. God the MCU really wasted it's chance to do them proper. >>150491252It really does just showcase the mindset of the writers
>>150490734I wasn't limiting things to the 90's, I was just mentioning post-Onslaught titles (like Exiles) that were worth reading. Not that they were A+ titles, just readable.The jumping off points were just my opinion. Cap after Gruenwald never surpassed Gruenwald for any sustained bit of time, so the title was dead to me.Maximum Carnage was the absolute latest point any self-respecting Spider-Man should read to. Even then I'd argue that issue #350 is a better "last issue." Honestly, you can stop just after Kraven's Last Hunt and miss nothing but i know the Venom fags will scream bloody murder. The Clone Saga was worse but Maximum Carnage is shit, and there's nothing at all worth reading between MC and Clones... so... why continue? Maximum Carnage is just an exercise in the infuriating limitations of a hero that won't kill. I don't mind a hero devoted to non-lethal methods, and I can appreciate stories that challenge this mentality... but Maximum Carnage just keeps hammering this point far beyond reason. Carnage pops up murders dozens of women and children and Spidey, Cap, even motherfucking Venom cannot bring themselves to put him down like a dog. Every fucking issue, rinse/repeat. Carnage murder count gets to triple digits, at that point Spidey is just criminally derelict in his duties. Claremont indeed stayed on the title too long and the decision to create X-Factor was worse than any of the banal tripe Jim Lee and others came up with... but the title was a husk after Claremont. There's nothing especially worth reading.>>150490749You can safely read to the end of Roger Stern's run on Avengers. Then skip to Busiek/Perez and stop before Disassembled. Is there content in between that you "could" read? Yes, but there's a bunch of shit too.
>>150491606The problem with MC was that it was just too many issues of this. Cut the length in half and it's... not great but it's less grating. Easier to swallow and accept. I don't think super heroes should kill myself but they also need to stop bringing it up if they're not going to. >You can safely read to the end of Roger Stern's run on Avengers.I still liked into the 90s Avengers. The leather jacket team though the closer you get to the crossing...
>>150488638>>150488705Neithr of those stories are as terrible as /co/ loves to portrait them.>>150489091>It was exactly this time that comics started to feel like they were being made by and for people who don't like comics.Yeah, Mark Millar famously famous for hating on capeshit comics.
>>150491728>Neithr of those stories are as terrible as /co/ loves to portrait them.Yeah, they're worse than how /co/ loves to portray them
>>150491693>Maximum Carnage too longYes, exactly! ...and every issue was the same "oh no, we shouldn't kill Carnage! We're not monsters!!! Uh... yeah, Carnage just butchered a school bus, so... not good. Good heavens!!! *shakes fists in impotent rage*It was aggravating at first but then Captain "WW2 soldier" America shows up and refuses to kill... AND THEN VENOM: LETHAL PROTECTOR won't kill Cassidy either. Fuck you Marvel. >Avengers 90's It's okay but it did Doctor Druid dirty for no reason, and added nothing characters like Gilgamesh, Rage, and Quasar. Then the title got derailed constantly with the parade of crossovers like Inferno, Acts of Vengeance, Galactic Storm, and Bloodties. The Gatherers is better than it has any right to be, and it's bifurcated into 2 parts for zero reason. After issue #375 it's a long mediocre march to Crossing and then Onslaught at 402 or thereabouts.
