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>>150508226
She'll get a Redemption ack when she becomes one of the Avatar's concubines.

>>150508226
>and he is not beyond redemption
because he realized what he was doing was wrong and he ended up liberating ba sing se in an ironic reversal of once besieging it

>is an irredeemable monster.
because she is never once sorry for her actions

redemption requires the humility to recognize you messed up

>>150508253
Azula's mother chose Zuko as her favored child and abandoned Azula to be raised by Ozai.
Iroh did the exact same thing.
Azula was never given a chance by anyone.

Iroh only regretted his actions because his son died. He gave his support to Zuko because he was a replacement.
The "good" don't do what's right. They do what's convenient for themselves.

>>150508320
Cope fag

>>150508226
I thought she was holding a picture of dickbutt.

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>>150508226
Redemption is about correcting your character, not correcting your actions.

>>150508334
Kek

>>150508226
She never redeemed herself

>>150508253
>because he realized what he was doing was wrong and he ended up liberating ba sing se in an ironic reversal of once besieging it
Yes...after expending most of his pretty long life war mongering but for him the 14 year old is beyond redemption.

>>150508320
So what? You're going to force azula to be sorry against her will?

>>150508997
Yeah AFTER
There was no "after" for azula. She never sought redemption because she was never sorry. She was just sorry she lost.

>>150508226
Didn't the comics showed she's free and content with being a crazy bitch? What would redemption even look like for her?

>>150508226
>Reminder that Iroh caused the death and suffering of thousands and he is not beyond redemption yet Azula who conquered a city with not a drop of blood shed is an irredeemable monster.
Iroh is the one who says this. It isn't a universal truth. I'm sure Zuko wore down Azula's insecurities and his brotherly love made her finally change for the better. I won't read the comics.

>>150508999
Yes, you're supposed to raise children, not ignore them.

Iroh and azula are both examples of two kinds of evil.
Iron is the kind which is the product of the environment. Iron was divorced from the consequences of his actions because he was taught that they were good and only experience affirmation in that direction. Iroh was capable of redemption because his environment changed on him and he got to learn the truth of the world.

Azula is the sort that is inherent. She's broken. Hugs and kisses arent going to fix her. Seeing her victim's suffering wont fix her. She is mechanically flawed.

>>150509059
Translation: it's too much work so I'm giving up

>>150509048
Yeah we gotta contend with the writer's feminist attitudes. Of course for them the boy raised under his mother's skirt becomes honorable and just while the girl raised by her father becomes a psychopath. Even with that both kids were neglected by one parent. Both kids had the same opportunities and resources. Both shared the same culture that characterized peasants as worthless and foreigners as enemies.
Azula did not or could not have gotten to where she was psychologically because she got too much praise from her dad. She has a broken mind.

>>150509072
"Too much work" implies there's an amount of labor that would do it. There isn't. These people don't even have pharmaceuticals. What hope could they have to make her see empathy? The closest they could do is to teach her enough that she learns how to trick them into letting her go free so she can be evil again.

>>150509097
Refusal to acknowledge that people can change is a way to shield yourself from responsibility.
Just admit the truth. You are willing to sacrifice the few for the benefit of the many.

>>150509114
>le epic "just admit" prose
Iroh changed because he could change
Azula did not change because she could not change.
How about you admit that some people are unfixable. Are you worried if you admit this that you're admitting you're one of those people? Get over yourself. We're talking about characters.

>>150509815

Are you fucking kidding me? Azula is only 15 years old she has plenty of time to change so don't write her off just yet. She is on her path to redemption as shown in the comics

>>150509842
Oh and what happened in the comics? Did she see a little kid cry and it made her feel bad?
Put a broken vase on the shelf and wait 15 years. It will still be broken. Azula's problem is she is a sadist. Barring some author-based contrivance where THIS TIME the sad thing made her feel guilty when all the previous sad things didn't.
Iroh had to lose his son to feel empathy. To him the pain he caused wasn't real. Then he felt it and he lacked the emotional tools to deal with it. His breakdown and build up were how he overcame the damage his upbringing caused.
So what was azula's wake up call in the comics?

>>150508226
Iroh isn't a psycho

>>150508253
At the end of the day there are eonly two kind of people.
Those that say "Thy will be done" and those that say "my will be done".
Irohs redemption is associated with a spiritual awakening for a reason.

>>150510051

Her friends and everyone leaving her. She is alone and doesn't have anyone and now she is realizing she needs to change. She is a child and is still learning how to be a person so give her time she will be there and be the hero she was always meant to be. Her redemption will be long and rocky but she is on the path

>>150508252
Go on?

>>150508253
>because he realized what he was doing was wrong
nah it's because he lost his son and went oh shit this stuff can hurt me too, he then went home and did nothing about Ozai stealing the throne and continuing the war

Azula has insane trust issues. She lashes out before anyone else can lash out against her. She justifies herself through false equivalency (my mother loved Zuko more), perceived betrayal (my team abandoned me and refuses to see why I believe they should do this and a degree of sadistic pleasure.
She has no companion foil and has maladjusted ever since. But I guarantee if she was left with me, she would simmer down. She doesn't need to feel sorry for her past actions, that's her character flaw but she needs someone to act as a furnace she can fire her emotions into until trust is built and she regains her trust in the world system.

I could fix her.

>>150511337
>he lost his son and went oh shit this stuff can hurt me too
That is exactly what "realize it was wrong" refers to. He had to suffer an injury akin to the ones he inflicted to come to terms. He did nothing about ozai because he was still grieving.
Then later he was instrumental in undoing the damage caused by his brother and himself.
>>150510714
Answer my question. What was the thing that jolted her from her psychotic stupor? I didn't read the comics except the free pages and I saw coocoo azula strapped to a wheel chair or something. What was her "oh shit" moment?

>>150511566
She'd kill you.

>>150511640
Not if I kill me first

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>>150511566
Fuck fixing her

I would become her servant, not in a stupid fetishy way, but becoming her "Alfred Pennyworth" to her "Batman's Insanity", a grounded individual to pull her out of her bullshit inner turmoil, the straight man to her little melodramatic thought based monologue, a confidant and a trusted friend.
And of course, the one who could make constant sarcastic remarks and satirical commentary without worry or care of her trying to get me executed because I am the only one that knows how to make the tea and snacks just the way she likes it.

>>150512252
>fuck fixing her

actually thats all she needs, anon

>>150511629

The repeated hallucinations got to her. She is free physically but mentally she is trying to sort herself out. She finally admitted that her relationships are bad because they are based on fear and she is doing soul searching because of it.

>>150508226
Sexism?

>>150512300
Ok so nothing? Her rock bottom moment wasn't Her incarceration but a self created manifestation of her mind?

>>150508226
That little monster needs correction.

>>150513340

A culmination of repeated hallucinations berating her for who she is and what she did until she finally realized she needed to atone for it

>>150512300
>>150515009
You’re not him, your trip is different.

>>150508226
If Avatar was meant for older audiences they'd have had Azula be a lot of explicitly evil. But there was only so far they could go on a kids TV show.

>>150508253
So what you're saying is Hitler would be redeemed if he said sorry after WW2, but some teen kid who doesn't feel sorry for attempted murder isn't redeemable?

>>150512252
Sounds like fun, count me in

>>150515065

Trips got refreshed on April of this year

imagine realizing you're wrong but committing to an argument for no other reason than pride

>>150516318

Imagine bumping a dead thread because your ego can't take no one wants to converse with you

>>150515009
My answer is the same.

>>150515113
>so what youre saying is hitler would be in the bathroom if he walked through the door but some teen who refused to walk through the door wouldn't?
You're missing the point. The magnitude of the crime is not the issue. It is sincere repentance.
>say sorry
NO!
BE sorry.
Not "say"
BE

>>150517228
OK, so to you a repentant Hitler is literally better than an unrepentant kid who only tried to kill someone? Are you retarded or just christian?

>>150517305
>is better than
Where's this coming from? Justify this question. We aren't talking about whatever "better" means. We're talking about redemption.
What is better or worse is an opinion. I'm not expressing an opinion.
Someone who is repentant is redeemable. Someone who is not repentant is not redeemable. As in, they lack the ability to be redeemed. Like someone who refuses to walk through a door is incapable of entering the room on the otherside.

>>150508226
Needs correction desu

>>150508226
Evil men can be redeemed.
Evil women can not.

>>150517496
The context is Avatar, retard. Fans think Iroh, a guy who killed millions in a war of conquest, is a swell guy just because he felt about it afterwards, while Azula, who tried to kill Aang and failed, is evil.

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>>150508226
Azula can be redeemed only after giving birth to multiple heirs for her brother and Aang, in an effort to strengthen relations between the air nomads and the new fire nation. She can then resume her position as royalty. Hopefully becoming a mother will give her a way to focus her emotions into something positive.

>>150509059
I disagree mildly. She was raised under the worst father possible and basically expected to always be the ruthless or lose his affection. Her evil is on her dad. She had a bad environment and had no chance since it began as soon as she was born.

>>150518204
Because iroh realized what he did was wrong and spends most of his time with zuko trying to guide him away from that path
He actively tries to make amends for his actions and culminates in him saving ba sing se when once he tried to take it

Azula never tries to repent for her actions and only at the end does she feel bad about it
But her response to those sudden negative feelings is to ignore them and double down on her warped ideology

Iroh is a swell guy because he had a realisation that he was drinking kool aid and turned his life around
Azula never has a chance to willingly turn away from her bad upbringing until she was having a literal breakdown

It is all silly because we have the statement from Ehasz that Azula is redeemable.
Same guy who wrote the line about "she's crazy and needs to go down".

>>150518356
this aang azula shippingg never made any sense
there's no connection there at all
you may as well ship toph and jet

>>150518880
Aang believes in second chances and redemption more than anyone else. The biggest discourse about Azula in the fandom is whether she could be redeemed.

>>150518911
But he literally doesn't. The only one who was willing to give Zuko a second chance was Toph.
The only moral hangup from Aang was killing Ozai. He never tried to redeem Ozai. He just decided to cripple him so he couldn't hurt anyone.

>>150508226
Avatar is a show that gets worse as you get older because Iroh is a war criminal that gets off scott free and we're just told to accept that

>>150518880
I'm not shipping them, I'm saying Azula will become breeding stock to help repopulate the air nomads. I don't care if Azula like's him or not.

Azula was a literal psychopathic megalomaniac. You can't exactly "grow" out of psychological/personality disorders.
>bbbbut she's only 15!
mental disorders only get worse with age, let me know how many jeffrey dahmer's turned their life around and "redeemed" themselves.

>>150518204
Yeah im not the one who randomly brought hitler into this conversation.
I began by saying both iroh and azula were evil. Theyre different kinds of evil. In the context if avatar the fictional story, they are both case studies on different kinds of evil. Iroh was molded into evil, he beleived he was good. When he learned he was evil it hurt him and that made him change. Azula knows she's evil and likes it. She takes pleasure in suffering and her mind always returns to the subject on manipulating and dominating others. Even then, theoretically, she could be redeemed. But, first she has to want it.

I would say "Don't think about it too hard, it's a Nicktoon" but Avatar wants to be seen as better than an episodic comedy

>>150518392
Right this concept that ozai selectively abused her to.make her into a psychopath. Thats not made up. All sorts of cultures practiced it and it's notorious among nobility.
Probably. We don't see it ourselves. We see zuko get abused mostly. But I think the things we see show that azula had that spark from the beginning and its probable ozai recognized it and endeavored to hone it towards being a good firelord.

>>150519189
Yeah, I see it. She had that evil ember and he nourished it, fed it until became a forest fire.

>>150515555
Nice 5's anon.
Man, why people don't appreciate dubs anymore?

>>150518465
He only had a realization because his son died. It's almost comedic:
>THIS is what I was doing to people!?
And a lot his changing did to all the people who are dead because of him.

>>150519144
>different kinds of evil
Yeah, Iroh is the capital punishment or 1000 consecutive life sentences kind of evil and Azula is 5 to 20 evil, probably closer to 5 due to her young age and circumstances.

>>150518465
>Because iroh realized what he did was wrong and spends most of his time with Zuko trying to guide him away from that path
Part of what's good about Zuko's arc is that Iroh gives him the knowledge and tools to be better, but Zuko decides to be better on his own initiative, when Iroh's not around. There's something very cool to me about the fact that Zuko's moral epiphanies DON'T come from Iroh spelling things out to him, but from figuring things out himself. And Zuko's choices and his concept of "honor" end up fundamentally different from Iroh's; rather than demurring from power and avoiding conflict like Iroh does, Zuko fights just as hard as he ever did.

>>150518719
I never saw "She's crazy and she needs to go down" as a fundamental moral judgement, so much as Iroh warning Zuko to take Azula seriously. When Iroh said that, Azula was an active and direct threat to both his and Zuko's life. Trying to talk her down or have a good relationship with her then would have gotten Zuko killed or captured.

>>150519416
>THIS is what I was doing to people!?
Thats basic human decency and empathy
Realising the same pain he feels is the same one others have been feeling as a result of the war he was a part of was a direct catalyst for his radical change in personality
Its what sets him aside from his brother, who knows and just doesnt care
And what sets him aside from azula, who is faced with the same pain of losing her friends as a result of her villainy but spirals into psychosis instead of reflecting for 2 seconds on the consequences of her actions

Azula was at her hottest without make-up when she was in her gown on her bed

>>150519446
Azula's spiral was BECAUSE of self reflection, or at least what little she could accomplish due to her emotionally stunted childhood. The creeping realization that everything she'd been raised to believe was a lie. You can see it in her face and hear it in her voice when Ozai tosses her aside to go play Phoenix King. But unlike Zuko, she had never been given access to the tools required to reconcile those thoughts and feelings by, say, her mother or her uncle, so instead of being able to work through them in a healthy manner she has a complete nervous breakdown.

Honestly, if they'd had antidepressants and group therapy in the Fire Nation she'd have been fine.

>>150519544
literally all she needed was one single person who actually cared about her
your new age treatments designed to create lifelong medical patients wouldn't solve anything

>>150508226
Azula arguably accomplishes the greatest feat in Avatar history. She kills the Avatar, aka the very first goal of the Fire Nation at the start of the war and the goal of all the villains in the world's history.

And after doing that, she gave her brother the credit for it. Just so that he could restore his honour and regain his place as the Prince of the Fire Nation. Something that hurts her as it pushes her down the line of succession, but she does it anyway because she loves her brother.

>>150520400
It was a carefully planned political move, because she suspected that aang survived
By making zuko responsible for aangs supposed death, she wins over her brother to her side by appearing to care while also setting up zuko to take the fall if it turned out that aang survived (he did)

>>150520436
>she wins over her brother to her side by appearing to care
In that case, why does she tell him that to his face? She had very little reason to think that the avatar survived. She just made that motive up to save face, and because Zuko wouldn't believe anything but a selfish reason.

>>150519189
>>150519266
I think the real problem for Azula is that she's hyper-ambitious and extremely bloody-minded by nature. She's kind of stuck: she can't be Firelord, she sure as hell isn't going to be allowed to take power in Ba Sing Se again, and she's been the suzerain of major metropolises by virtue of sheer skill and cunning, so she's not going to be satisfied with anything less.

Due to who she is and what she's done, channeling her intense skill and efforts into some other avenue isn't really an option - no-one trusts her enough to give her free reign to work without supervision, so her choices are to live under Zuko's shadow (which is totally unacceptable to her), or to be a terrorist/vagabond.

>>150520491
She isn't hyper-ambitious. She loves her brother, according to the lead writer. She could have easily double-crossed him after taking Ba Sing See, permanently removing him, but instead, she gives him credit specifically so that he could regain his place within the fire nation. Also, if you believe the comics are canon, then in them, she decides to try to mould Zuko into a cutthroat ruler instead of overthrowing him.

>>150520541
>if you believe the comics are canon
I don't, but regardless, I don't mean hyper-ambitious purely in the sense of pursuing political power. I mean that I see Azula as someone who, no matter what she does, will put an absurd amount of effort into it until she can do it perfectly, then keep pushing until she's literally the best.

The problem is that given her circumstances, I don't think Azula would be allowed to go be the worlds best baker or painter or anything else low-profile and nonpolitical, even if she wanted to. The only place in the world she has a chance of not being arrested if recognized is Zuko's court, but unless she wins trust and admiration from Zuko/Aang/Mai/TyLee AND the public at large, she'd be stuck, surrounded by people who at best warily tolerate her, and without any outlet for her energies. And winning that trust would take years, a lot of selfless heroics, and a very delicate balance between contrition and self-promotion.

>>150508320
Just because nobody gives you a hand doesn't make it any less your fault.
You fucking did it. You could've simply not done it. Lack of hand holding is not an excuse.

>>150521754
You think you're defending individual responsibility.
In actuality you're tearing down the importance of parenting.

>>150508320
Did you miss the party where Azula is shown to be a young apathetic psychopath ever since she was just a child?

She willingly kills a random duck out of niwhere for fun, and it's implied she does things like that (and worse) all the time without batting an eye.

It's not that her mom chose Zuko, it's just that, between the two, he is the one who needs protection, because dad and his babygirl are deranged lunatics that take enjoyiment out of tormenting him.

In short, Azula is a self affirmed, proud dick by choice in spite of her mother. She Is in a position of power and choses to abuse it because it gives her a massive girl boner.

This Is also what makes her a cool villain, by the way. Not every character we like needs to "be good".

>>150521980
I hate posting from my phone, by the by.

>>150521980
You know a much stronger argument would have been that Ursula did not have the power to interfere with Ozai who had taken Azula under his wing; so she decided to at least save Zuko.

Instead you argue that Ursula never had any responsibility as a parent at all. Just write Azula off as a lost cause because she acted like a little shit when she was a child.

>>150521980
>kills a duck
No, she doesn't.
>implied to do worse
No, it's not.

You pulling shit out of your ass isn't evidence of anything except you having shit in your ass.

This thread is ridiculous. No one is being honest.

If Zuko could be redeemed despite all the shit he did there's no reason Azula couldn't be too. She's 2 years younger. More malleable than Zuko. Plus at the end you could absolutely tell she was at rock bottom and ready for change.

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Who's behind these mentally ill monthly threads?

>>150522634
Someone thought it would be good idea to give Azula internet access

>>150508226
Azula needs a mentor to change.

>>150519446
>That's basic human decency and empathy
No, it isn't. You don't need to break a normal person's leg for him to understand that breaking people's legs is bad and hurts people.

>>150508226
So wait what is going on with Iroh again?