How would you fix the Batman?
>>150528660>”A taste of his own medicine.”
>>150528660Get rid of the Bat family.
>>150528660Give him radioactive Bat-powers and rebrand him as THE BODACIOUS BAT-MAN
>>150528660Gentrification of gotham so no more gargoyles.
>>150528682All joking aside, there are way too many of these fucks.Kill off Tim, Duke, Huntress, Batwoman, and Stephanie, turn Catwoman and Red Hood into real villains again, and it would be good.
>>150528660Have Batman cripple Bane and set an example for the rest of the Villains to not fuck with him
>>150528682>killkate, jason, yellow orpheus, tim, steph, cass>cripplebabs, wears power armor occasionally. make her dc peni parker>keepnightwink, Alfred, damien, selina, huntress but it's the original daughter of bruce and selinaPretty much stop with the silver age characters but keep Damien because Batman having a son makes sense
>>150528660His Rogue's Gallery is great but I'd shelve Joker for a bit, I'd try to focus on more grounded criminal activity like Ennis did with Punisher for a good amount of arcs. As far as villains go I personally think Scarecrow is just as much of a menace as Joker and I'd present him on the same level. I'd bring back Eraser (maybe goofy costume included) but I'd give him some use, the more organized and low key criminals of Gotham probably would have a reliable cleaner to remove evidence after their activities and that's the perfect spot for him. I'd move focus off of the Bat Family too. I still would have the pulpier horror elements though. Oh and I want the city of Gotham to stand out, feel like a character in its own way, in all its imposing Gothic glory. Not like the neon bullshit in Fraction's run.
>>150528660This companies have tried everything. alternative universes. Restarted universes. Alternative timelines. What I would do would be to start n alternative print, where we tell the story of batman during 5 years. Maximum attention to continuity and the whole story is ended by year 5.
>>150528660Bring back Harold and make more batusi references
>>150528722Bruce, Alfred, Damian/Robin and Cass/Batgirl in GothamDick, Babs/Oracle and Helena in BludhavenTim and Steph retired and went to collegeDuke's powers burned out, and he moved to Coast City or some shitSelina, Jason, Harley, Clayface, etc, are all villains again and don't remember Bruce's secret identity
>>150528803>make her dc peni parkergive her the bat bunny suit her dad used
>>150528722>>150528878name one non 70s, non Adam West Catwomsn as a villain story
>>150528682The batfamily is more popular than 80 percent of dc's mainline characters.
>>150528878>Damian Robin with bruce batmanHasnt been intresting a single time. He should be with dick.
>>150528901Catwoman wasn't even an anti-hero, let alone hero, until like the 90s and it wasn't cemented until 2002.
>>150528803>Silveragefag>hates everyone>likes damianEverytime.
>>150528682Dont think that's necessary, just give them more defined roles with their own niche. Rather than having all of them at all times. Every attempt at getting rid of the family DOESNT work.
>>150528908And yet they don't know how to use most of them. Spread the Bat Family out a bit between cities like Batman Incorporated
>>150528660Remove the curse over Gotham and investigate the organization that governs the organization that governs the organization that governs Gotham's justice system.
>>150528928You can argue that, for sure. At the same time, most of them are deeply rooted in gotham/all their character ties are there. So its defintely a bit of a conundrum.>>150528660I dont know if there's much that needs fixing, just have a book that's solo batman detective stories, and one that deals with the larger extended cast. Lay off on the deconstructions for at least 4 years. And you're good.And make joker actually funny again.
>>150528956It worked for Nightwing in Bludhaven so it's worth a try.
I would have him admit that he doesn't kill his enemies simply because he doesn't want playtime to end. The whole reason Batman is unhappy is because he can't reconcile his desire for a crime-free Gotham with his desire to be Batman for all eternity. He convinced himself that he's trapped in a Sisyphean struggle to rid Gotham of crime, but as they say, one must imagine Sisyphus happy. If he would just admit that he's happy being Batman, he'll do whatever he can to keep being Batman, and he doesn't give two tugs of a dead sidekick's cock about how being Batman affects the handful of innocent people in Gotham, then literally every single complaint about the character will be resolved.
>>150528969It worked for nightwing cause he had spent a decade in new york away from the bats, and because outside of bruce/alfred he really has no other ties to gotham. You could probably move damian to bludhaven too, make him nightwing's flamebird instead of robin. The others idk.>>150528979Desu, its the dc universe, killing them is no more permanent.
>>150528993Yeah, but if Batman admits the truth, then we'll never see another "why doesn't he just kill/rape/dismember the Joker" thread. Because everyone will know the real answer.
>>150528916What are you even talking about? Catwoman has been an anti-hero, or at least a lower b bad guy, since day one. It's why Batman lets her go in her first appearance. It's why she gives up the loot to stop Joker from killing Robin in her second appearance.
>>150528846Continuing from this I really want to see more of the side of Gotham we saw in Year One, the seedier, more grounded side.
>>150529016You kill the joker and he comes back in a week.
>>150528993There's nothing holding Tim to Gotham besides his obsession with staying Robin. His friends all moved away and his family is dead. Unless you really want him to stick it out with Bernard.
>>150529064I feel we've had 40 books about this.
>>150529086When was the last one? City of Crime?
>>150529086Yeah, but we've also gotten like 100 books about the more bombastic out there stuff. I like both but man, it feels like the Big Two are lacking a really good, gritty street level book right now. I'd still use some of the established villains though, like Eraser or Tally Man or Professor Pyg.
>>150528660Homoerotic relationship with Goliath from Gargoyles, an ongoing cross over series so all the robins can form relationships with the Manhattan clan, Jason and Brooklyn rebelling together and such. Goliath and Bruce would push each other to be the best they can while having a "I wish I had what they have" jealousy of each other. Goliath wanting Bruce's ability to belong in a human world and Bruce wanting Goliath's protective nature and threatening demeanor. They'd have a species swap episode to resolve that tension by learning it's not all as great as they thought it would be.
>>150529084Eh, he's a gotham native, his driving experience comes from being that, either of his central love intrests are gothamites (wether you ew like bernard or steph), Ives while not mentioned anymore should still live in gotham too. And as you say, how linked his story is to bruce. id say he's one of the most linked to gotham overall.
>>150528660I want to see Batman take on some more occult based crime. Some lite mysticism like that dude in The Cult allegedly being hundreds of years old
>>150529139Right now? That's a better argument, im just saying, there's a ton of "grounded" batman books trying to be like year one. Especially whenever a film comes out as they ONLY do that batman.>>150529135Impostor and the riddler the batman tie thing both are that too desu.
>>150529079Yes, but the point is I want Batman to admit the real reason that he doesn't even try. The whole formula can continue unaltered after that, it's just that the flimsy pretense of Batman hoping that the Joker one day sees reason will be gone, and any reader who is waiting until Batman finally does it will know not to bother waiting anymore, they'll know why they shouldn't be waiting, and they can move on and find something better to do. At that point, if you're still reading, you'll be reading for one reason: you want to see another round of "[Insert Villain Here] breaks out of Arkham, Batman punches them back into Arkham". That's what it's all really about, I just want to wash away all of the bullshit.
>>150529202Again, the thing is that from the practical perspective its no different. They live in a world of unpermanent death, what would killing actually change when there's 500000 lazarus pits, demons, clones or flat out ressurection for all of them?And desu, you do that, and the next writer will be back to his prior thing. There's 4 different reasons batman doesnt kill.
>>150529224>There's 4 different reasons batman doesnt kill.There's four different EXCUSES. I'm talking about the real reason.
I'd make him canon
>>150529250No, these are presented as actual reasons, and again, its not as if ONLY batman has a no kill rule. Superman also has it.>>150529263Snowman's already canon.
>>150528682In my head canon 99% of these fucks are not real.
>>150528684lol
>>150529306They're not real anyways. And you're free to do so, tho again, objectively, it wouldnt make the book sell anymore, or be better, cause they've tried that, and it never ends working out.
>>150529270Justice Lords Lex was right. All their talk about the sanctity of life rings hollow when they allow innocent people to die and their killers to live. I'm not saying they've all gotta go full Punisher. I'm just saying, if someone takes every chance they're given and flushes it down the crapper, why keep giving them more chances?
>>150529306So only 0.13 percent of batman exists in your headcanon? Strange
>>150529357I think Batman forcing Red Hood to follow his rules was a mistake. I'm surprised DC doesn't have many street level heroes unafraid to kill since Wild Dog, Vigilante, and Hitman.
>>150529376Comic characters that kill never kill any actually relevant named characters lol.
>>150529364Nta but you could read a shit ton of comics that feature Bruce working solo don't feature any of those characters besides Alfred and that anon didn't mean him anyway
>>150528660Let him use guns again
>>150529357Desu, that's more on the system than they are, the fact that gotham and metropolis keep not executing these people is a bigger issue than the heores not crossing that line.
>>150529400I am making a joke, there's 13 characters there, 1 percent of that is 0.13 percent. Its not even batman fully.And i mean, you'd never find a comic where batman works alone-alone. He always has alfred, or gordon. And publication wise he's had robin since his first year. Batman works alone is mostly a retroactive thing.
>>150529376The problem there is that Batman is determined to make it his fault. He can convince himself in five minutes tops that standing aside and allowing someone else to kill the Joker is the same as killing that fucking clown himself, and then we end up with the infamous scene where Batman steps in to save the Joker from the goddamn Punisher. You can bet that if someone in Gotham stubs their toe on a Wayne Industries brand coffee table, Batman will blame himself for it until the end of time. He's a fucking guilt junkie.
>>150529430Punisher's never killed any of the actually dangerous villains in his world (see green goblin, red skull, zemo, doctor octopus, carnage)
>>150529411Which is what makes Batman unfixable without alienating every existing batwank fan, it's one gigantic idiot plot.
>>150529429Ah I gotcha but I wouldn't even bother bringing up Alfred and Gordon in bat family discussions because no one has a problem with them. It's the multiple robins, bat girls, and hanger ons like Duke people hate.
>>150529452Alfred's been dead for a while, and aflred's a later addition than robin.I do get that's not the point, just you know that's how it was prhased.There's been multiple attempts at reducing the batfamily, it never works. At this point the robins-batgirls and arguably duke (he is unarguably the least popular, just judging by how, attempts have been received) are kinda hard to remove. The others have been with less issue. As an observation, you know?
>>150529437He got a few big names at the start of Secret Wars. And to be frank, pun definitely intended, the Punisher is pretty much a more honest Batman. He knows damn well that his war on crime will never end, and he doesn't want it to. If he's got a gun, bullets, and criminals to shoot, he's happy as a clam.
>>150529511Which got instantly erased, you know what i mean. Also he's shooting bullets at sandman, absorbing man and scorpion, that wouldnt work lol
>>150529511Because punisher is written that way since the 90s, batman isnt. He's presented as actually saving people (obessively so). You can critique it, but its just fundamentally how he's written
>>150529598Batman doesnt need to drop the rule but someone else needs to not have it. And I don't mean someone like Clownhunter or Ghost Maker who show up a few times then never show up again.
>>150529638I mean, look at jason even when he kills he never ends up killing an important villain. Even penguin was a fakeout. And he's written as legit with it.
>>150529501Yeah I agree hard to remove but not hard to make more interesting. That would involve having them branch of from Bruce and Gotham though. Not sure how feasible that is. Not even just from a fan perspective. I legitimately think DC wants all these guys crowed in Gotham and constantly interacting as a large group
>>150529656I think its super easy..cause most of them have a lot of great stories/characterization to pull from. RN is just an odd era. I feel there's only so many you can actually remove from gotham and make it function without loosing something. But a good enough angle could work.I do think DC loves their batman vs batfamily stories, but we'll see, the current run is very scoped down but its also just starting. I think focusing on the individual differences is more intresting than the batblob.
Better writer
>>150528682This. I don't know who half of these faggots are.
>>150528660Make every new volume its own earth within the multiverse.The big problem with why people go and ask "hurr y Batman no kill Jokeman" is because Every single volume from 1939 until now is being made to have happened all on the same earth. If you read each volume as its own thing you'll see that Batman only ever tangles with a handful of villains a couple times.
>>150528682Does anybody give a shit about any of them outside of Dick?
Is Absolute Batman worth reading?
Far as how much his "family" needs to be.>Robin>AlfredThat's it. Gordon, his daughter, and anyone else should just be side characters of minute importance only.Parents stay dead.Temporary flings allowed with random rich chicks since Bruce is a playboy after all.No sons.No wives.No second cousins once removed and once thought dead but reveal they're alive somehow cuz why not, no fuck all that.His stories need to be immersed in mysteries/whodunits that keep the books selling until he solves the crimes and eventually stop the big bad. >What about killingUnless absolutely necessary or by accident or by plot, no.It's not complicated. Un-complicate him.
>>150528682This. Solo Batman works the best, I don't mind Selina but that's it.
>>150531334the batwank tards do, which is a problem because they're the ones paying money for comics
>>150528660make drumpf batman
>>150529452>It's the multiple robins, bat girls, and hanger ons like Duke people hate.Nobody has any issue with Cass, Steph, Tim and Damian tho.
>>150528660>How
>>150531716I'm talking about the fans who flat out don't even want a robin let alone many
>>150528660More time with the Justice League, less time with the entire Batfamily.If that doesn't work, babytrap him
>>150531716nobody outside of the comic shop even knows who they areif you ask a normie who robin is, they'll say Dick GraysonBatgirl, Barbara Gordon, etc.
>>150528682You mean the bat army
>>150532054Eh, I'd say normies least know who Damian is. Character's been around for just under 20 years now and officially Robin for over 15. He's getting close to Tim's tenure as Robin, but you gotta remember he gets the bonus of being recognized as Batman's actual son.
>>150528660I wouldn'tI'd listen and that's what no one did
>>150532054>if you ask a normie who robin is, they'll say Dick GraysonLmao they'll just say Robin.
>>150531334I mean, they're some of dc's most popular characters, and the people who read the batman comics do.>>150531630Yeah the people who actually buy more batman comics than the one trade.>>150532054Normies dont know anyone, nor would they ever read a comic. They wouldnt even know who batgirl is lets be real.Casuals would know the 4 robins and barbara, they're pretty present in big pieces of batman media other than the films.>>150532178This>>150532104A casual would, but a casual also knows tim cause arkham/dcau. That's the tiering
Keep him the fuck out of the JLA and big events. He is a Gotham hero that most people outside of Gotham are not too sure is actually real or not. >>150528682This is a HUGE one. Solid editorial rule, no writer is allowed to make a new Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, or other Gotham hero. They may only make villains.
>>150529437I want Marvel to just go ahead and make him be Scourge of the Underworld and he routinely cleans out D-grade villains all the time. Marvel never really revealed who that guy was anyway, he could be Frank.
>>150533526D-list villains very much dont matter.>>150533509They havent made a new one since 2013...not an actual bat anyways.
>>150531832>likes batman>doesnt like robinThey can, but those people have to ignore the fact batman's had robin for longer he's fought jkoer or catwoman>>150532104Jason's more known than damian with casuals.
>>150531334Wayne family adventures has 1.7 million subcribers (just in english)...that's more readers (and thus money for dc) than any individual batman comic. There is more of a fanbase for it than nearly anything else.
>>150528660Bruce has never ever hung out with the JLA or other heroes before. He does not care for the meta community and ignores them completely. He is a street level hero that sticks to Gotham and fights Gotham thugs and mobsters. The Batman that is on the JLA roster and hangs out with Superman and goes on big events and fights Darkseid etc is actually Bat-Mite cosplaying as his hero. This is how he can beat up Reverse Flash and Darkseid.Crossover Joker that fucks with the JLA is also a Bat-Mite creation, with an upgraded level of power and is regularly brought back to life after being defeated.>Tower of Babel was Bat-Mite>Emperor Joker was all Bat-Mite's doing>Salvation Run was all Bat-Mite's doing>Final Crisis was Bat-Mite>Forever Evil was Bat-Mite
>>150533803I would be happy to excuse Jason's last twenty years of existence as Bat-Mite trying to write fanfiction.
>>150533803Why doesn't Bat-Mite look like this anymore?
>>150534294He doesnt really show up
>>150529411The whole point of being a vigilante is dispensing justice when the law fails to do so. If a superhero isn't willing to take that step when necessary, then they aren't a superhero, they're just a supporter of the status quo.
>>150535753He should.
>>150531716>Nobody has any issue with Cass, StephSee >>150532054>nobody outside of the comic shop even knows who they are
>>150529511Punisher is immediately gonna be ripped to shreds by these supervillains cause he's just some loser with a gun against superpowered guys on a level beyond him.
>>150531164Honestly that's not a bad idea. I was recently reading JL vs Godzilla and Kong and one of the interesting things is that since it's standalone they're not afraid to kill off a few minor characters or have what would be huge plot events in the usual universe just casual things like characters getting married or the entire Legion of Doom arrested and forced into the Suicide Squad which then goes rogue when Waller is killed.
>>150536702In the DC universe Heroes are more just people that take out huge crime gangs or superpowered villain which the regular law is not capable of arresting. Them being vigiliante's against a corrupt and flawed status quo isn't really the point. Even Batman it varied on the story, while sometimes Gotham's government and police are beyond filthy, often they are ok just incapable of dealing with the over the top psycho shenanigans of guys like the Joker.
>>150528660Kill Dick.
>>150537239Batman is just a manchild spending millions of dollars on therapy that only exacerbates his issues, when all he really needed was grief counseling as a kid, like literally any other kid who lost his parents. Instead of being raised by a man whose job depends on following instructions, he should have been raised by someone who would say "No, you can't dedicate your life to dressing up as a bat and punching criminals, now get your ass to therapy."
>>150528660He doesn't need to be fixed, he's pretty good for a comic book superhero. You can write off some problematic elements if you want to make a more mature hero. Becaue oligarch that took little kids into his manorm rise them up and play superheroes with them until their coming of age, and then dropped them off and replaced with new younger kid is kinda suspicious even for teenager's audience.
>>150532054Yeah but that has more to do with cartoons and movies. Media usually keeps to the most iconic and classic version of a character so it's 60s era sidekicks.But also it's because writers went a little overboard adding in new Bat family members in the 00s. Things stayed relatively the same for decades and then post 2000's there were new Robins, new Bqatgirls, Batwoman was back, and half the writers made up their own pet Gotham hero.
ITT: people who have watched the movies or played the games and feel alienated by the comics, which is where the actual good stuff is
>>150528682No. Reduce the Batfamily in size, though. Gotham only needs a Batman, Robin, and Batgirl. Nightwing can be in Bludhaven, and you can have Red Hood and Huntress off doing anti-hero things or something.
>>150537122Frank Castle is not a loser
>>150528660head injury gives him that condition that makes you swear uncontrollably
>>150538831Red Hood has been completely stagnant as a character since becoming an anti-hero, especially when he's not even allowed to kill.
>>150539880Easy just allow him to kill, same with Huntress
>>150539880Red Hood was stagnant since UTRH since it never built a foundation for the character.
>>150528660Grant Morrison tier shenanigans.Dan Mora on art.Waid can write him how he writes him on B&S: World's Finest.There are no serious stories, just serious developments & serious implications.
>>150528660Every single one of these “how would you fix” threads can be answered easily with:Stop letting people from, or who have moved to, California and Oregon or New York make comics for the big 2.
>>150540153We've had nothing but Morrison shenanigans
>>150538636Yes. Very clearly.>>150538093This desu
>>150537034Didio had an issue. Happy.These are comics. The audience are the people who buy comics. Not people who would never touch a comic in a hundred years.>>150538571They barely even do batman post year one.
>>150528660So the batfamily should just be>batman>robin>batgirl>former robin>former batgirl>wildcardAnyone can fit any role. But every great era follows this.
>>150539908The revent thing that got canceled did that haha.
>>150528682SPBP
>>150540824I still wish they handed the book off to someone else to finish
>>150531699Bush was already Batman in The Dark Knight so why not
Batman routinely fucks the woman he defeats and invariably gets them pregnant. More of his villains are female now.
>>150528660Alternate universe like Absolute but a bit more grounded and less monster fights. Sparingly use the rogues like someone else said in another thread, have deaths have actually consequences. Keep him away from the Justice League. Something grittier. What Punisher MAX did for Punisher but for Batman
Alfred actually survived Bane's attack and secretly recuperated but is chairbound now if not outright paraplegicBatman died in an accident in the batcave shortly thereafter and under instruction from Alfred, Babs constructed an android to replace both him/BruceDick, Jason, Damian, Cass, etc. don't know None of the bullshit involving Vandal Savage taking over Gotham/Wayne ManorBatmandroid's prime directive not to kill is starting to erode esp. regarding the rogues, computing ways for them to meet bad ends worse than Beyond's that SEEM like accidents, and the directive is weakened further if the villain figures out he's a robuttBruce's death went beyond anything the Lazarus Pits could revive, Boston Brand can't even find his soul
"Always kill" rule, no matter how minor the infraction
Every year a new member of the Batfamily no matter what, it is discovered Bruce is only keeping them around for organ/tissue transplantsEventually his approach to the rogues is fueled by insane cannibalism
Harley trapped in a maximum security prison during a power outage and brutally raped to death by a train of hundreds of prisoners100 page special, multiple artistsAmanda Conner/Adam Hughes covers
>>150537832I don't think Battranny is a good idea.
>>150528660Mainline Batman is too broken. I'd reboot him my way. The core tenets, beyond me just dropping my fanfic, are>no BatFamily; only Robin would be Dick, who grows to become Nightwing, albeit reworked, and then Damian who's Bruce's biological kid and plays a big role >not being restrained to Gotham>no retarded "muh no kill rule">globe-trotting adventures>oscillating between, Gothic Horror, Sci-Fi, Spy-Fi, and Noir/Detective stories in succession>no goofy shmaltzy stuff, Batman's back to being a male power fantasy>would eventually get some actual superpowers to excuse all the BS he pulls off
>>150544162Would you scoot Nightwing to Bludhaven after he leaves Batman? Also I think Gotham is a good place for Batman, just explore it a lot more, let him travel to other cities too but there's so much to do with this gothic imposing city, especially the smaller time non supernatural villains
>>150544201>Would you scoot Nightwing to Bludhaven after he leaves Batman? No, he'd turn into a globetrotting Bond-esque type 24/7 and leave behind all the morbid Gothic stuff Batman has to deal with. It's why Damian would eventually inherit the mantle of the Bat. And it'd serve to truly make Dick his own man and not just Discount Manlet Batman.>Also I think Gotham is a good place for Batman, just explore it a lot more, let him travel to other cities too but there's so much to do with this gothic imposing city, It's been nearly a century of that, Batman should operate globally. Him being a supergenius billionaire with an obsessive work ethic and still being unable to put a single city in order just makes him look a genuine retard. Either downplay his abilities/money/place in the world, or just open him up.>especially the smaller time non supernatural villainsExactly my point; I don't want to read that anymore. The guy's a supergenius billionaire with a bat-fixation, I don't want to see him running after random crooks or >Z-Lister who's actually just a derivative of an A/B-Lister hence him being forgotten but was brought back for D33P3ST L0R3I want Batman to actually be challenged with all of his faculties intact. There are hundreds of random vigilantes out there, and myriads of typical street level stories. Batman should provide a different experience.
>>150544332>Him being a supergenius billionaire with an obsessive work ethic and still being unable to put a single city in order just makes him look a genuine retardHe slowly comes to actually put Gotham in order, so much so it starts to have other problems he doesn't care enough about fixingSomeone else comes along and starts repeating the cycle of iconoclastic symbol of fear to the new cancers that comes to blows with Bruce and the readers' loyalties are divided about thisIt's no one he's already associated with
>>150544162Damian with Bruce is ass.
>>150544989This. Anons talking about casuals. But casuals know jason due to the animated movie and the others due to games/shows.
>>150528682Thread ended here. I know Dick and Jason and even Damien has their fans but absolutely nobody gives a shit about Duke or Kate or Steph.
>>150528660DickBats, permanently, I don't care how many people complain, including writers. Dick is Batman now, deal with it.
>>150528660At this point Batman's sorta just got too much baggage with the current history of DC where it's hard to fix the character without straight up rebooting, or switching the person under the cowl until the next big crisis and universal reboot.While they're still committed to having Alfred killed off, I think making Bruce take up an Alfred/Oracle role and be the man in the chair to a new generation Batman may be the best direction to take the character. You can still have Bruce in the picture, but you get the much needed refresh that the Batman side actually needs these days. Personally if it was me, I'd probably just have Bruce end up marrying Selina and have another kid who he settles down into a support role for the Batfamily while he focuses on being a parent again.Then either have someone already in the Batfamily take up the role of Batman, or a new OC, or another legacy character from an elseworld or future what if, brought into the main setting. Maybe throw the Terry fans a bone.Of course the main problem is, a lot of people aren't gonna accept Bruce taking step back, especially in a way like this.
>>150528682Batman, Alfred and Robin (doesn't matter which one) is all you need, the rest can just be side characters that rarely show up and do their own things in their own books, the 90's got this.
