>>150554735
adventure scifi died and doesn't carry into modern trends like street heroes, magic heroes, space opera/star wars heroes and etc.

>>150554785
Wouldn't adventure sci-fi have at least a close link to space opera?

>>150554735
He's not that cool

>>150554735
Writers cannot really figure out a good way to make a guy that shrinks and grows into a headlining character. Either he is too tiny and weak, or too big and a massive target.

Hank might work best on science adventures like early FF. But very few people did anything with him.

>>150554735
His rogues gallery fucking sucks

>>150555793
>Either he is too tiny and weak, or too big and a massive target.
I think the current iteration of the power set in comics, movies and cartoons works rather well. Pym People can just change size on the fly, either insect or giant size without problem, back in the day it was a bit cumbersome how it worked and not very dynamic but once they figured out they should change fast I think if worked better for the characters.

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>>150555793
The 80s West Coast Avengers version would have been the best for space/science adventures. That's when Hank had the speed suit and about a thousand little gadgets shrunk down in his pockets.

Add some more science adventure pals and Hank could have worked out like Reed, the super smart guy that cobbles together some science gadget that solves the problem while the superpowered friends run interference.

>>150555828
I always thought Living Laser, Dr Demonicus and Controller would make for good transplants to fighting Hank Pym

>>150555759
Yeah he is

>>150554735
waiting for him to be de-aged by gage in the new battleworld book and go back to the giant-man costume

>>150556054
The bitch slap and fuck awful tranny alien rape baby thing are his main defining traits now.

Should have stuck with pyntron.

He's done for.

>>150556735
Yeah fuck off, he's clearly got more going for him then just low hanging fruit

>>150556987
Like?

>>150556029
Mad Thinker would be a more fun Pym villain. He was kind of second rate as a FF villain.

>>150554735
Hank's time as a solo is weird because it feels like "What if Reed Richards tried to do Spider-Man things" He's already a brilliant scientist with a career that really wants to spend his time stopping bank robbers

>>150557065
>Teaching the Avengers Academy which also had him grow so big with Absorbing Man dragged along to see the Living Tribunal and other beings of that tier or dealing with Crusher Creel when he got a insane buff during Fear Itself
>His West Coast Avengers days where he was more of a science adventurer who dropped the costuming for a bit
>Proving himself throughout Kurt Busiek's run including in notable stories like Kang Dynasty or Ultron Unlimited
>Saved Firestar from own powers eventually killing her by modifying her suit to help with her microwave generation
>If counting adaptions EMH which has probably the most popular version of him in general

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>>150554735
The slap. Him smacking Janet poisoned the character. It's been baggage the character has been carrying since the 70s, and is especially verboten nowadays in the age of metoo.
Just like how Slade is always going to be a pedo because of his relationship with Terra. He is always going to be Hank Pym the Wife Beater, before Hank Pym scientist and superhero.

>>150557242
>If counting adaptions EMH which has probably the most popular version of him in general
they really underestimate how much people loved Hank and Jan in that show. they were the heart of EMH.

>>150557101
Awesome Andy would also probably work well fighting Hank since he's a package deal with Mad Thinker plus the intellectual back and forth would be very entertaining since Thinker is such a twat about it. Blizzard, Ghost and Swarm might also be interesting to see how Hank either has to creatively beat them or interact with their personalities. I liked in EMH when he tried to actually emphasise with villains which would be fun to see pop up in the comics especially since he hung around a bunch of them when Al Ewing brought him back.

>>150557280
Tbh, if anything the slap is the result of how many times writers tried to reinvent Pym because of his previous struggles in being a leading hero

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>>150557280
>>150557361
It also didn't help that later writers would later lean into it for future takes on the character. See Mark Millar's Ultimate universe turning him into a real monster.

>>150557280
His history with mental illness and context behind the story actually being brought up is helping a little with the stigma then when it's was the 2000's to 2010. Like in universe he's already been on trial, contemplated killing himself, tried to atone and suffered absurdly so I think perhaps he can bounce back, especially when other characters have similar black marks such as Tony Stark, Wanda Maximoff and many more.

>>150557395
Comics would probably be better off if you could smother Mark Millar and Bendis in the crib....maybe also Chuck Austen as a bonus.

>>150557280
That’s true, but the reason that whole storyline happened is that Pym was an expendable character who had already lost his Ant-Man identity to a legacy character and never managed to sustain a series.

Jim Shooter saw him as a guy who was not cut out to be a hero and it sort of fits because he wasn’t originally intended to be a superhero, kept changing his hero identity and married Jan during a psychotic break.

The slap is a big problem for him now because in the 21st century comics world it’s considered evil to ever forgive any man for what he did. But even in the healthier 80s and 90s when most writers and readers were willing to ignore the slap and let him be a hero again, most of his memorable moments were kind of dark, like attempting suicide or letting his repressed homicidal rage come to the surface as he beats Ultron to death. He never really found a writer who was able to give him a memorable hero story.

>>150557399
Tony gets away with it because alcoholism isn't so much a moral failing it's a chemical dependency thing.
But hitting your wife? That's a hard no for many people. For most normal people there's no excuse for hitting your partner. d2dp8

>>150557337
They easily have the most developed relationship as a couple both being fleshed out really well individually such as Janet loving the superheroine while Hank would rather avoid violence and wants supervillains to get actual treatment but while being different people on their goals/interest/personalities they still love each other despite the issues it can cause. Plus they are genuinely just insanely likable due to voice acting plus solid writing, hell when Hank becomes Yellowjacket he's still really charming despite deliberately acting like a gruff jerk and Wasp does learn to appreciate Hank while still being delightfully bubbly and mouthing off ally and enemy alike.

>>150557430
To be fair Millar has considerably mellowed out in recent years.

>>150557529
I think the Bipolar disorder while also going through a complete mental breakdown plus the iffy implications of Wasp marrying him during his Yellowjacket mental crashout which had him thinking he was a different person at least is something that's made it not clearcut as just him being an abuser. Also I meant less Tony's alcoholism and more so the utter through the wringer dogshit of Civil War had on Ironman as a character.

>>150557460
I always thought that Scott Lang was created because of the slap but he actually became Ant-Man two years before that even happened and Hank as Yellowjacket acted as a normal guy, it feel weird how Scott, Hank and Jan even have a team up and things seem happy at the moment, only to realize that in a few issues the Slap story arc begins.

>>150557572
I've not checked his recent stuff, I know he's done like a whole connected universe deal with his original comics like Nemesis, Wanted, Kick-ass and so on.

>>150557460
>in the 21st century comics world it’s considered evil to ever forgive any man for what he did.
Yeah. I can't imagine Kelly Sue Deconnik or Sana Amanat ever writing Hank Pym in a positive light. I do believe people can change, and atone for their mistakes. But pretty much everyone agrees that 'having a bipolar episode and hitting your wife' is a big ask for normal people to just forgive. Even if it was just a nasty bruise for 616 Janet, instead of attempted murder for Ultimate Wasp.

>>150554735
because he's nortubel tier

>>150557604
I think it is a shame that Hank Pym never got to interact with Rita Demara who stole his yellowjacket costume and eventually tried to be a hero.

>>150554735
It's hard to lead a book when everyone keeps trying to call attention to the time you slapped your wife and won't let it go

>>150557617
Millar has basically gone from 'the world is horrible so you should be just as horrible back' an immature if understandable attitude to have after 9/11, to 'the world is horrible and that's why we need real heroes'.

>>150557681
Huh, I'm still pretty sore about what he did in his stint in Marvel and how he treated certain characters but honestly props to him for changing with the times.

>>150557280
The Slade shit is so annoying, wish they'd just retcon it at this point

>>150557603
It also helps that it's been clarified that The Slap was never meant to be quite that dramatic, and more like him having a temper tantrum that The Wasp got in the way of. Also that the subsequent issues actually did directly address Hank's subsequent firing from the Avengers and divorce from Janet instead of just sweeping it under the rug. It was never as cleancut as Hank just being a "bad person", it was very clear even to him that he did a Very Bad Thing alongside his other insane scheme of putting the Avengers in danger to save them, and that he had a long way to go in making up for both of those incidents before anyone would be willing to talk to him civilly.

>>150557603
The actual reason is that Pym is viewed as "lame" so his worst moment gets to be his defining one, despite being the intended low point of an ongoing story which is immediately followed up with his high point in the Masters of Evil story that starts Stern's run. Tony gets to be an alcoholic with no repercussions, Spider-Man gets to slap MJ with no repercussions, etc. because they're popular unlike Pym. That's really all it boils down to.

>>150557280
Of all the stupid shit that gets retconned, it's this and one more day that are allowed to stay despite the damage they've done

>>150557740
Well you can't really do that because Judas Contract is one of the big stories from DC everyone remembers. On par with stuff like Death Of Superman or Knightfall. It's baked in sadly.

>>150557851
Sadly characters from the silver age tend to be permanently defined by the first interesting/humanizing thing that happened to them.
For Captain America it was being transported to the modern day. For Tony it was his alcoholism. For Mr Fantastic it was his relationship with doom.
For Hank, regrettably. It's being a wife beater.

>>150554735
Because not only is he a bit of a shitty person, all of his aliases are pretty lame (the fact he can list off four that he's flitted between in this panel is a clue there) and his power set isn't really very interesting.

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Shame Hank's friendship with certain Avenger members isn't delved into more, like itd be fun to see him, Scarlet Witch and Firestar just hangout more or bat for each other at their lowest moments.

>>150556735
>fuck awful tranny alien rape baby thing
do I dare ask

>>150557460
He should really just be the Avengers resident science guy. Probably sticking back at the mansion most often. But he is the guy who makes and fixes the science gadgets, makes the vehicles, and the one the team goes to for info when weird space stuff happens.

>>150557955
>>150556735
He was in a relationship with Tigra during Civil War. Until he got abducted by the Skrulls and replaced, and Tigra ended up getting pregnant with a half-skrull furry baby who she thought was Hanks.
That was an awkward conversation to have when he managed to get back to earth.

>>150557681
actually based, good on him

>>150557915
There's 20 years apart from his origin to the Slap, he also got Ultron in between. Problem is that he also lacks a good origin story, The Man in the Ant-Hill is good but is not exactly Ant-Man's origin because it was a one-off sci-fi tale and the superhero stuff came later.

>>150557987
With Mr Fantastic on call and Tony kicking around doesn't that make him sort of redundant?

>>150558001
What the Fuck

>>150557926
Even if he actually was a shitty person like you say, that didn't stop Wolverine and Punisher from having runs despite being pretty awful as people and also his power set is plenty interesting for how it can be used for fun settings or action sequences if you haven't got the imagination of a rock.

>>150558001
Bendis is such a cancer

>>150558004
>There's 20 years apart from his origin to the Slap,
The characters weren't exactly so nuanced or well defined back in the Silver Age.
In fact. Bob Hall says that the slap may not have even been intentional on Jim Shooters part. It might have been caused by confusion in how to get across the scene in a single panel.
Yes. Beloved marvel editor in chief Jim Shooter was the guy who wrote the issue where Hank Pym pimp slapped his wife.

>>150558035
Wolverine kills people. But he's also pretty chivalrous and respectful of the women in his life because of his decades of experience. I don't think there's any story where he hits a woman because she disrespected him. Well not unless she tried to kill him first.
And Frank isn't meant to be a role model or a nice guy, so nobody really cares if he hits a woman or two if their in his way between him and his target.

Hank was a character where this was much less expected and much more shocking so it stuck in peoples brains more.

>>150557802
It sucks man, figures the characters I really had to like where Hank Pym, Kang and the Serpent Society who are having it really fucking rough lately. Also thankfully despite really liking Spider-Man I wisely dipped after Spencer's run which despite its faults, was the last enjoyable time for Spidey....though I did like him fighting the U-Foea since I'm fond of those villains to.

>>150558015
>>150558049
superhero comic books.

>>150558001
The female skrull that honey trapped him replaced him for years. A skrull, her or some other skrull, got into a relationship with tygra.
Basically raping her for years and knocking her up. Which sleazed everyone out...you know except for the weirdos.

They dn DESPERATELY tried to hardwaive it as okay and hook her up with the real pym and have them play happy family.

Which was even worse. Now her and the god awful editorial mistake/queer bait is still around and tygra us just this permanently ruined character that is pimped out as cheap queer bait and used and flutter pan panel filler.

Their trying to make it work the the moon knight character...the one no one really gives a shit about but is pushed because it's kosher as he'll.

So there you have it. Pym is permanently tied to something no one likes. Kind of how captain marvel is ruined because of that infamous story.

Can't wait till Disney does the mystique is nightcrawlers daddy story. I have every single rage farmer on YouTube subscribed and the content is going to be fucking hilarious.

>>150558180
He's just fought and killed who've disrespected and attempted to fight and kill him constantly.


Let's be real. The only thing pym is defined by is crazy bullshit and beating his pitch wife. And yes, Janet was a manipulative emotionally abusive bitch.

>>150558180
Honestly I've not read anything Wolverine related in ages but man, his Ultimate counterpart is just awful as a person and is pretty much nearly equal to the character slander Hank got in that universe.

>>150557280
the problem isn't the slap, the problem is hack writters who keep bringing it back
you could easily memory hole it or make it stop playing a part since its been resolved multiple times, with Jan forgiving and going on again off again AFTER the Slap, but hack writters feel the NEED to acknoledge it or give thier shitty take of it

>>150558359
The Ultimate Universe was basically exagerrating the worst parts of the characters from the comics in ways you couldn't with the mainstream versions.
Some of it worked (Captain America, Spider-Man) some of it didn't (Wolverine, Mr Fantastic, Hank Pym).

>>150558296
>the one no one really gives a shit about but is pushed because it's kosher as he'll.
Stfu

>>150557529
Tony was a serial philanderer though, and was both emotionally and verbally abusive. The real reason no one holds it against him is because normgroids fell in love with RDJ.

>>150557968
Whoever drew that should feel embarassment, shame and then destroy his hands.

>>150558049
That one was Slott.

>>150558015
>>150558049
Was it bendis or zebb wells who also did the weird namor sue storm ntr bit

>>150558556
That was also Dan Slott. The reason you're thinking of Bendis and Wells is because of Bendis weird interracial ntr fetish and Zebb Wells being a real life cuckold. Actually I guess given how his family life turned out, Bendis also is an interracial cuckold in a way.

>>150558528
Odd since Slott usually did pretty well by Pym with the Scientist supreme stuff. I guess can blame Bendis still on technicality since Secret Invasion was mainly his fault.

>>150558516
Why would the artist feel bad when he got money for it?

>>150558674
Slott is directly at fault.

>>150558749
He's at fault for a lot isn't he? I don't fully hate him as much as some people since haven't read to much for his stuff besides few issues plus worst he did has been run back and admittedly do like 3 of the characters he made plus the storyline of the Sinister Six having a winning streak including beating the Avengers and the Intelligencia appeals to me

>>150558014
Everyone cannot always go to Reed for everything. And tony was not really the super scientist guy with answers to all weird science problems. Hank is much more of a mad scientist type that makes mutants one day, and dimension portals the next.

>>150554735
I love him now as a father to Nadia with her stepmom Jan.

>>150557926
>all of his aliases are pretty lame
This is pretty much the core of it. He's not that cool of a character at all, few people like him, few writers care about him either. So no one cares if he is turned into a dramatic irony tool, or a half robot and forgotten for a decade. It doesn't really bother anybody.

His only real claim to fame is being one of the earliest Marvel heroes and one of the first Avengers. If he wants then he would be dropped and forgotten a long time ago.

>>150558866
If no one cares, then why are people clearly pissed off at how he's treated then and why have several writers clearly tried to salvage him over the years

>>150558296
70s-80s debut characters just never do well. Most are killed off pretty quickly, but the rest are made into gimmicks with shit writing.

>Julia Spider-Woman was pushed aside and only existed to be brutalized by Carol for no reason.
>Johnny Blaze only appears when Marvel wants someone to be fucked over by Mephisto to remind readers he is really evil
>Richard Rider cannot be on a team that is not killed off over and over again
>Tygra is a second rate nobody
>Namorita is a second rate nobody

>>150558900
Look at this thread. It's practically ignored.
And several writers tried with him because they want to be known as the guy who fixed hank pym and get paid. Not for any love of the character.

As a kid I Liked the idea of a science adventurer who had shrinking powers and a bunch of super hero identities.
That was cool...
But this pym?
He's gross and worthless. He should be the adventurous guy doing crazy and somewhat evil stuff that people like Deadpool go to.

But..he just sucks ass.

>>150558900
Because they watched a movie back in 2015. Or they are outrage farming about how Hank is a wife beating asshole.

>>150558994
Julia spiderwomsn had no business being ignored by spiderverse

Johnny blaze is the definitive gr. The Latino replacement is interesting but not iconic.

Rich Ryder is literally their space superman now

Tygra is ruined forever.

Namorita was fairly popular on new warriors but I think shes dead now right?

>>150558994
It's really odd since 70's/80's debuted characters are leagues better then most of the new characters coming out lately, especially hero wise.

>>150559058
>Johnny blaze is the definitive gr. The Latino replacement is interesting but not iconic.
>Niggas forget that Danny Ketch exists

>>150559146
I know about ketch. He was the first ghost rider I ever read and he is what people think about when thinking about ghost rider.

But ketch is the original they gave those gifts to.

>>150559237
Yeah sometimes that's whats happens with legacy characters, all their unique stuff people like are given to their predecessors beacuse those in charge prefer the OG or think it's more marketable to combine the succesful aspects into one. Like how Barry Allen takes stuff from Wally West in personality in adaptations.

>>150558994
Didn’t Blaze and Namorita debut earlier than the 70s/80s? Could have sworn they were late 60s.

Hank Pym should fight more giant monsters, that'd be cool.

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>>150557399
It was nice when Pytron called them out on their bs (mainly Tony)

>>150554735
For all the moaning and hot-taking about Superman being too overpowered to create a compelling narrative around, that actually does apply to a guy who can be two hundred feet tall whenever he wants.

>>150559695
They usually bs something like it exhausts him, makes him a big target and other stuff that doesn't matter cause being Kaiju sized is fucking rad

>>150559658
>you hit your wife, once, during a psychotic breakdown caused by her taking advantage of your literal actual disassociative schizophrenia
>i regularly cheat on, verbally abuse, and yes have sometimes struck my own flings like that time i chucked a fucking whiskey glass at peppers head
>let me lecture you on what a bad person you a - ACK

Least he had Earth's Mightiest Heroes S1.

>>150555738
yeah but space opera's are also the least popular out of the surviving cape genres and so cannot really support adventure scifi as an extension of itself.

>>150559695
No joke, there's no counter to a guy that can shrink you to subatomic size. Even in the MCU that's their solution for bad guys.

>>150559796
Honestly both seasons treated him pretty well, it even did great with his Yellowjacket phase by making him effective while making his dickish behaviour entertaining while make a bit more sense.

>>150554735
>Why did Hank Pym never catch on as a solo lead like his contemporaries?
Someone talked about this in a recent thread here, Hank's original Ant-Man run in Tales to Astonish is in many ways more like a pre-Silver Age superhero book, he had no real recurring supporting cast to begin with, no life or career outside of being Ant-Man, and his only notable recurring villain was a non-powered mad scientist. By the time they tried to course-correct, adding Wasp as a co-star and love interest, changing Hank's identity from Ant-Man to Giant-Man, and adding Whirlwind (in his original Human Top identity) as a new recurring villain, it was probably already too late for Hank to catch up to the breakout stars of 60s Marvel. Eventually they just cancelled the Giant-Man & Wasp feature in TTA and replaced them with Namor. Avengers became Hank and Jan's 'home' book and it was in the superhero soap opera of that team where they both truly thrived.

For whatever reason, Marvel only really tried to push Hank as a solo character one more time, with a short Ant-Man run in the early 70s, and the plot of Hank being trapped at Ant-Man size may have just been too mundane when compared with other Marvel books of the time.

Then in the 80s, The Slap happened, and like everyone is saying here, Marvel won't let it go, fandom won't let it go, it's going to poison the character forever, no matter how many times people write a Hank Pym redemption arc, some dick is going to bring it up all over again afterwards.

>>150557851
Mid 90s Marvel actually DID try to retcon this moment and blaming Hank's mental state on Kang making a failed attempt to mind-control him. That retcon got undone in Avengers Forever because the people working on the books then didn't like the retcon and wanted to do another Hank redemption arc instead.

>>150558296
Hank Pym was replaced by a Skrull somewhere between Disassembled and House of M, and a Secret Invasion tie-in issue of Avengers revealed the Skrulls had to keep killing and replacing their Hank impersonators because the degree to which they were having to think like Hank kept ending with them convinced the Skrull plan was doomed to fail, and trying to bail before everything went wrong. The final Skrull Hank who was around when the Secret Invasion event finally kicked off was male, but apparently at least one of the earlier Skrull Hanks was female, and some writer was perverted enough to make one of the female ones the 'father' of Tigra's catbaby.

>>150560269
Stan Lee said antman was fucking stupid.

Its time to let it go.

>>150560384
Stan Lee said that he was always rooting for Ant-Man and thought it was hard for the character to be a hit since artists would not make use of the perspective of size change

>>150560269
>The slap
Others have said it here but I find it so hypocritical. Literally nobody gives a shit when Peter smacks a hoe, nobody gives a shit when Tony goes full Chris Brown, nobody gives a shit when anyone else commits DV or some other kind of abuse as part of their comic book soap opera
But Hank Pym smacking Janet in an issue 40 years ago? LE GASP

>>150560734
With Peter it happened in the middle of a controversial, hated storyline, so people were just willing to ignore or handwave it, and he's a hugely popular character with a legion of fans, many of those fans are self-inserters. Marvel would never be able to let that moment define Peter, but Hank Pym was a B-tier Avenger who hadn't had any solo material in years, he was sadly the kind of character Marvel could get away with doing something like that to, and because he didn't have a lot of other big character defining moments, that one story ended up overshadowing his whole career, because neither Marvel nor fandom ever seem to want to move on from it. It's one of those situations where a character has a fairly small fanbase which just wants him to be treated well, but they're outnumbered by other Marvel fans who only know him from that one story, and that's all they want for him.

>>150560734
Forgot to ask while writing >>150561098, who did Tony Stark hit, and when? I don't remember him doing any domestic violence, even when he was drinking.

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>>150561152
There was the time during The Crossing when he went crazy killed several women (even shot Jan). But then he got Teen Tony'd, and Reborn'd, and third Tony'd. Clearly we need to get at least three Hanks deep before anyone forgets, and we're only at two.

>>150560373
Slott and Bendis are fucking degenerate faggots and I have no idea why comic writers like them, or Kirkman, or that one Elementals writers do this shit with females impregnating other females. Fucking ftm futa shit is on their minds when doing that shit and they're fucking hacks.

>>150559658
That was Nick Spencer, right? Goddamn if Shooter ran Marvel and all the writers were like Nick Spencer, this company would survive for another 20 years instead of collapsing in what I think is 5-8 years from now.

I hate how the slap overshadows the storyline its in which is A. a really good story and B. ends with Hank's more or less redeemed and forgiven by Jan.

I blame Millar and Ultimates honestly for making it a bigger part of his character and causing the 616 version to get memeified.

>>150561678
I still remember when the avengers animated movie came out and depicted hank as an abusive deadbeat on the verge of being divorced who gets put in his place by captain america
i think that was also around the time they started depicting bruce banner as a cuck too

>>150561544
I don't think anyone's holding The Crossing against Tony because he was explicitly being mind controlled by bad guys at the time. Even before all the later retcons, he was never doing any of that of his own free will.

>>150561678
Millar's Hank in Ultimates is basically the result of Wizard Magazine and online comics forums making Hank Pym wifebeater jokes and memes for years.

>>150561678
Eggheads Masters of Evil is unironically one of the best lineups

>>150561665
If all the writers were like Nick Spencer, Hank Pym might be treated a lot better, but we'd also have a lot of political soapboxing, mystery box plots that drag on for years and end in incoherent nonsense, and entire story arcs devoted to retconning stories the writer didn't like, or re-killing characters he felt shouldn't have been brought back. And writers bailing on a book with things still unresolved or unexplained.

Trying to reunite Peter and MJ bought him a lot of fan goodwill, but after his Cap and Spider-Man runs he's not a writer I'd ever want to read again.

>>150562034
It's so weird, on the one hand I think Spencer really did great when it came to writing Spider-Man and especially his supporting cast and Villains but with Captain America what he did to Diamondback, Constrictor and Steve Rogers really was terrible.

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>>150562034
Notice how writers that did well with Ant-Man books lose all their sould the moment they step away and get more involved with editorial fuckery, that's because they get drained hard by working on that stupid shit instead of having a blast working on what they like. Fuck, Spencer would have been a better fit to write the third Ant-Man movie than Jeff Loveness

>>150554735
>Giant-Man got replaced by Namor the Sub-Mariner
>Namor graduated from Astonish to his own solo book with 72 fucking issues
I guess it's better to be a cuck than a wife-beater.

>>150562437
Not to throw shade but Spider-Man has done both and that seems to of given him a ginormous run.

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>>150560269
>For whatever reason, Marvel only really tried to push Hank as a solo character one more time, with a short Ant-Man run in the early 70s, and the plot of Hank being trapped at Ant-Man size may have just been too mundane when compared with other Marvel books of the time.
That's also weird because it was about the same time Scott made his debut so it seems counterproductive to push the predecessor one last time when the new guy is around

>>150561152
>>150561544
It's not canon, but part of the 2002 bender storyline had a pitch where Tony would have beaten Pepper in a fit of alcoholic DV rage. It almost made it into the MCU's canon later in Iron Man 2, but got cut there too.

>>150562034
>>150562192
I don't know what he did to Diamondback and Constrictor but I do know about her but not Constrictor. I like Diamondback and I will get around to reading classic Cap. But the whole premise just probably came at a bad time in America as well as comic fans who were tired of heroes turning bad or gimmick plots and Marvel editorial and Spencer is our chief example of meddling in shit nowadays. I bet Secret Empire being extended was not his idea and so was Kindred being turned into a Sins Past retcon instead of Harry/Peter's soul before OMD being used to undo OMD, as well as it going on for so long. He wrote good dialogue and some great stories. Yes some of his main runs drag. But I am willing to cast speculation and doubt on him being the reason why. Maybe you could say he should've just left right when they started meddling but I dunno I think it is a tough situation and quitting right as you have creative differences is dumb. You at least just finish out the run and quit once you feel like you fulfilled some of the obligations. Guy has to have some sort of career afterwards.
Plus I'm just waiting until the day he can fully explained what happened or when Marvel folds. Whichever comes first.

>>150562873
I genuinely like a fair bit of Spencers Spidey run and especially liked Superior Foes. Even if didn't like all his work or ideas I do think he got unfairly fucked over and despite some problems he overall did some solid stories and character writing when able to.

>>150562808
Hank's Ant-Man run in Marvel Feature was in 1972-1973, Scott Lang becomes the second Ant-Man in 1979, Marvel was a completely different place by then.

>>150562863
>the 2002 bender storyline
I don't remember this at all, was 2002 the Grell Iron Man run, or was this something from Ultimate Marvel?

>>150562873
I don't doubt that some of his stories suffered from editorial interference, but he did a lot of other things that were all his own fault, whether it's just mistreating characters, dragging plots out for years, his politics getting into stories, or sometimes just failing to adequately explain what the hell is going on, or writing a whole story that's basically just him sperging about a previous story he didn't like and trying to undo it.

He's one of the many people who was around in 2010s-2020s Marvel that I'd love to see a behind the scenes tell-all from, but he's also someone I wouldn't want to see on another Marvel book, as too many of his problems can't be blamed on editorial.

>>150563282
Are you sure? What about his politics is specifically upsetting? I know about the Red Skull page and to me those issues he's talking about with immigration were kinda more grey and more appealing sounding then maybe Marvel would've wanted. And that is better because more subtle political figures who start out grey and appealing in their complex thinking that then turns into shit like imprisoning and deporting people who shouldn't is more realistic and compelling as a villain. But I dunno if Spencer has had more unsubtle takes and dumb stuff, I haven't seen it as I haven't read all of his Cap run.
Which characters were mistreated? Most of his Spidey run was good to me. Who did he mistreat in Cap stuff? And yes I do agree that he did not explain stuff well sometimes but some of that was due to his plot getting canned and Marvel forcing him to do a new one probably and not being able to think it through entirely is not as big of an issue to me because it is obviously rushed.
The spidey stuff where he could be sperging out was actually based to me. Slott deserves every one of his shitty ideas and status quo changes erased from existence.

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>>150563587
Oh I forgot to say but what is Hank's best costume? Who has the best Ant-Man related costume out of all 3 of them?

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>>150563640
Hank's best costume is his first one. Followed by his alternate solid red-black combo costumes like the EMH one.

>>150560384
What are you talking about, Stan fucking loved Ant Man. Like after I believe New World bought Marvel and brought him in to help figure out what characters to start developing, you know who Stan kept trying to sell them on? Ant Man.

>>150561712
Still all three women died and never came back (even Rita’s still dead). And Tony has never shown one iota of guilt for this.

>>150560734
Chesire is a literal mass murderer who nuked an interior country into oblivion but it's okay because she's hot and loves her daughter (who's been ruined by being pointlessly aged up destroying everything about her and her relationship with her dad that made the character appealing).

>>150554735
Because editorial and writers hate him, and can't get over the slap.
Why do you think his main gimmick is reinventing himself over and over again? Its the equivalent of someone trying to move on from their past and remake themself.

>>150563938
Before the slap even happened he already changed names like 3 times, the slap was the result of them not knowing what to do with him anymore.

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>>150563640
It counts

>>150554735
His power is that he becomes small.

>>150562873
Diamondback's just been a heavily misused/mistreated as a character since the end of Gruenwald's run. In all fairness, Spencer wasn't making her a villain, she was basically forced into Serpent Solutions because she was depressed and broke and Viper took advantage of it before she turned on them to help Sam.

The last few appearances she's had she's inexplicably just a straight up villain again though and that's from only the last like two years.

>>150564046
I liked her during the Dark Reign.

>>150564046
Yeah but having her be a stripper and shit on herself compared to heroines like Girl Thor and Captain Marvel is just nasty, especially since she came up with her own identity and didn't just poach it plus actually had a career based on developing from a criminal to a heroine.

>>150563882
I agree with that. Funny how Black Ant's more cartoonish deisgn is associated with an evil Ant Man but luckily Kirkman made him funny. I forget if Kirkman created any other characters but that is definitely his best contribution to Marvel. Heroes Return design is cool because of the early digital art mixing with Perez. Just wish he put the antennas on it.
>>150564046
Lame. They need to redeem characters like that and come up with new villains instead of doing that shit. They did it for Thunderbolts...or at least kept those characters good.
Are any of Cap's other love interests as good as her? I don't know older runs. But if she's the pinnacle, I'm fine with that.
>>150564327
>shitting on herself
You mean like she is self-deprecating?

>>150554785
Hank was already failing as far back as the 1960s though

>>150556735
Anon your complaining is out of date
He's Scott's cranky uncle that looks like Michael Douglas because a generation of kods grew up watching MCU Ant-Man and having no idea about the slap

>>150564450
I still think its hilarious the MCU basically decided to just foist the entire Ultron and divorce plotline onto Tony instead

>>150557361
>>150557681
This was always the message of his comics, now you're just old enough to grasp the full narrative instead of hyperfocusing on specific moments and ignoring their context. Congrats, now you have more media literacy than most of /co/.

>>150563640
Scott's current costume is pretty good as the modern version of what Ant-Man should look like.

>>150564327
I'd almost bet that the self-deprecation was a mandate but I could believe it came from Spencer as he was a little too into political mania at the time. Diamondback's big problem is that she was created by Gruenwald to be Cap's Catwoman/Black Cat style love interest but once he was gone nobody had any interest in Cap being with her or I guess anyone who wasn't Sharon Carter (or now Peggy). She should probably be a Thunderbolt or something but it's not like that would matter now since the Thunderbolts has long been twisted past its actual concept to be a knockoff Suicide Squad.

Also speaking of characters who broke out, Songbird was basically primed to be one of Marvel's main female heroines for a long time but she never got properly promoted to the Avenges. The best she got was USAvengers back when Ewing was a small name writer (also that book sucked but I hate Ewing and think he's a hack) and she basically hasn't shown up since.

>>150564409
Yeah just full on ragging on herself as being outdated and disgraceful apparently compared to Marvels lame modern heroines who dress more "tastefully"

>>150564701
Diamondback on the Thunderbolts could've worked. The last time she seemed to of been treated well was in Avengers the initiative which also setup her relationship with Constrictor which helped flesh him out as having heroic potential despite his career as a longtime supervillain.

>>150564701
>>150564737
I still can't believe they did something as cool as The Scorpion + the symbiote and then made him boring instead of developing his character into a proper anti-hero.

>>150557529
>But hitting your wife? That's a hard no for many people. For most normal people there's no excuse for hitting your partner.
And yet. Peter Parker still has a ton of fans.

>>150564843
>Ellisbolts
That's where the concept got completely ruined.

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>>150564583
My only complain about Scott's costume is how the chest area is plain red, I feel like it could use something there to break the big blocky red, maybe an ant-like pattern like Ted Kord's blue beetle or the black circle

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>>150565445
The black circle extending out from under the silver harness like in picrel, perhaps.

>>150557934
That'd require scarlet witch to also not be ruined by a single character moment and then bendis ignoring years of canon to revisit it

>>150565949
That only makes their potential friendship stronger since they'd both been fucked over by the evils of shit writers

>>150565850
Maybe, what I don't like about the black circle is that how the main point of his inclusion has been lost because of how many artists didn't know it's meant to represent an ants' body

>>150563912
To be fair, that's much more about the creative teams in the late 90s not wanting to acknowledge this storyline at all and retconning a lot of it away, so they didn't spend any time having Tony wallow in guilt over what he'd been forced to do, nor in any of the Avengers or Force Works team still holding grudges. Even if any of the later creative teams might have wanted to address any of it, it would've been too late to bring it up years later as something Tony was still tormented by. Even the explanation of how Tony and Jan were back to normal was just handwaved as "Franklin Richards did it because reasons" in a short backup story in an annual about five years after Heroes Return started.

>>150563917
No reader knows anyone IRL who's nuked a country, readers tend to be more willing to forgive villains doing ludicrous comic-booky super-terrorism and war crimes with a huge deathtoll of NPCs if the villain also has 'positive qualities' than they are of characters who are supposed to be heroes doing bad things they've seem happen to people in real life, like wifebeating, adultery or walking out on their family.

This is why there are some really awful villains people still simp for, and some heroes who have something comparatively minor in their past that they're never allowed to forget and move on from.

>>150566000
She was married to Hank's grandson for years, but a lot of those family connections were really underused.

>>150564843
I think the point of Gargan as Venom was to get back to Venom as a villain, not do another antihero turn like Eddie got. The problem was Gargan as Venom just getting treated like a jobber from day one.

>>150566790
Maybe that little cock maggot Franklin could've brought Rita Demara back while he was at it.

>>150566833
>The problem was Gargan as Venom just getting treated like a jobber from day one.
Ok Garganfag
He was getting treated as the hot new and better replacement for Eddie

>>150555996
I think that's one good thing the MCU did with Hank, with a few moments where he used his shrinking technology for some goofy uses, like the tank on a keychain, or shrink a building down and wheeling away with it like it's just some luggage.

>>150567602
He also shrunk ants inside his medical pills

>>150554735
I don't know how any of them aside from Spider-Man caught on.

>>150566790
Yes, but the point of this being brought up is that it's ridiculous editorial will do that for Tony killing a bunch of women and trying to kill Janet, but Hank slapping Janet in a scene where the writer didn't even explicitly call for that, it just incidentally happened due to a misunderstanding through the use of the Marvel Method has become a lynchpin of the characters history and portrayal ever since

>>150555996
He really seems like he would be a hell of a lot more useful as a guy who can shrink and grow anything else. Shrinking himself is fun and all. But a guy with a Hotwheels case full of actual cars and planes can be used by writers way more easily.

>>150566833
>The point of Gargan as Venom was to get back to Venom as a villain
which was a completely dogshit idea trying to restore status quo in a book dedicated to shaking things up completely.

>>150570254
A lot of the ways his powers would be useful shrinking and growing himself would require artists that aren't dogshit and who focus a lot on perspective and volume in their work. Like growing himself for an uppercut that sends a man flying ass over chin through the air, or shrinking to survive a massive fall. An ant for example would be able to survive a drop from the top of the empire state building. Changing his size suddenly to flash evade attacks, etc.
Being able to shrink other things too is a massively useful subset of the power. Like shrinking bullets the moment before they would hit him.

>>150557280
The funniest thing about this panel is Jim Shooter claims it was supposed to be simply moving his hand up in a knee jerk reaction way but it was drawn like this (the joke often used is the Marvel way is to make every motion or pose the most it can be and this is the Marvel way version of the described action) yet Jim was the EIC with final say in all art and he okayed this pose which is clearly a man turned around and deliberately backhanding his wife. The buck stops at his desk.

>>150554735
He never caught on.

>>150557337
The pacifist angle helped.

>>150570801
And before the story line Hank was on trial for shooting a surrendering enemy, they wanted to make a fallen hero arc from the get go.

>>150570919
Which is funny because Hank early in his comic career was too eager to beat the shit out of commies

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>>150554735
I believe in Henry Pym
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NjCzbfz-Lw

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>>150557280
>Why yes I do get all my opinions from youtube videos.

Have you ever actually read that story? Because even back when it happened they were treating Hank with realization that he was mentally ill. They spent the next several decades fixing shit. And stuck. It was only in the 2000s that retards like Bendis started going HUR DURR WIFE BEATER. Fuck you.

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I really miss him as Giant-Man written by Gage on Avengers Academy...

>>150570254
He makes for a great team mate to non-powered guys like Hawkeye

Clint has like 3 or 4 variations of Pym Particle trick arrows
>Compressed hundreds of arrows into one so you can shoot whole volley at once
>An arrow that shrinks the target
>An arrow that can grow the target

Also keeping a shrunken motorcycle for transpo

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>>150572161
I miss it

>>150572161
Gage is writing 616 Pym in his Battleworld mini

Pym is the only character from 616 and it looks like he's going to have a confrontation with some version of Arcade

>>150572320
Mettle is alive and has his black skin back

>>150572161
Being near kids seems therapeutic for him. He should get a Giantman and the Wasp with Nadia.

>>150572715
Authority can be sobering

>>150572161
Also his absolute best costume he ever had, this was essentially Hank finally salvaged untill the Pymtron stuff happened.

Did he really have supporting cast people outside of Jan when he was written as not just an Avengers team member?

>>150574891
Not really

>>150554735
Shrinking and growing superheroes are supporting characters at best. Their powers arent interesting enough to be the main protagonist capable of carrying a solo book.

>>150574929
I doubt that. I could see a giant/small hero who deals with structural engineering and incurring the wrath of governments that depend on corrupt construction schemes or scientists that need to explore microscopic worlds with germs and creatures being a ripe enough place for a somewhat long series. A giant guy having to transport a country's different weapons across land would be interesting and whether this hero would be alright with it. Also the inherent size portion means that the hero will be famous and noticeable to the public. Also the paranoia of a guy being able to shrink and spy on people or grow big to decimate a building means villains could blow up buildings and pin it on this hero. Not sure if this has all been done before though.

>>150574929
Thier powers being interesting depends on how good the artist is, a good artist will make a visual treat while a bad one would make some generic art that you can't tell they changed size. Even the movies suffered from this, just compare Ant-Man's 1 visuals vs Quantumania's

>>150574929
I find your lack of imagination disturbing, also growing heroes are literally an entire genre archetype in Japan.

I feel like people often have too negative an opinion on characters who work better on teams.

>>150578728
something something if you can't carry a solo you are a worthless z-lister or something along those lines

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>>150554735
>When you can't catch solo lead like your contemporaries

>>150558049
>>150558001
I don't take anything after 1999 as canon.

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>>150580529
I feel like there was a constant struggle between the people who liked Hank and the people who wanted to keep knocking him down for no reason.

>>150580428
Ironic considering most of the X-Men despite how popular they are, absolutely aren't solo material. Like sometimes being an ensemble character is fine, some of Marvel's best villains work their best in groups or alongside other characters.

>>150555996
Englehart WCA is just the best Avengers material period

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>>150563640
Have a soft spot for the outfit based om the 4th doctor

>>150583253
I like Firebird.

>>150583924
Me too

>>150557851
There is a genuine cult of people at Marvel who refuse to retcon One More Day. They are fueled by an unfathomable hatred for Peter Parker and will begrudgingly still use him because it means money but they will grumble and shit on him the entire time they do so.

>>150557280
>>150557740
Literally only terminally online social media addicts still care about the Terra shit. DC has successfully memoryholed it for the casuals. Not a single person cared what he did in a storyline none of them ever read or ever will read when they can see Deathstroke do bad-ass mercenary things in the Arkham games and in the Arrowverse.

>>150584503
The Zone animations of him, Terra and Raven from Teen Titans has millions of views.

>>150583924
Do you think most writers, especially modern writers, are going to have any idea how to write an overtly religious character? I say this as an atheist liberal myself, I just do not trust most writers nowadays to be able to write a character as a character and not as an extension of themselves and their beliefs. You'd get an overemphasis on her as a strong latinx womyn and a downplay of her religious belief (hell, probably even a rejection of it) in spite of it being the absolute core of her character's general comforting and compassionate nature.

>>150584702
>I say this as a midwit myself

>>150584702
>Do you think most writers, especially modern writers, are going to have any idea how to write an overtly religious character?
No. But I don't think they know how to write most characters generally speaking.

>>150584917
Yeah

avengers ai post age of ultron maxiseries was good.

>>150567517
When did that ever happen? His debut as Venom has him get quickly beaten by Spider-Man so the story can move on to the big finale of Peter vs Norman vs Otto, and he spent most of his time in the Thunderbolts and Dark Avengers jobbing, his only real wins were in his solo mini, and eating Steel Spider's arm. Even his final story as Venom has the symbiote trying to leave him for Carol.

>>150570995
>Which is funny because Hank early in his comic career was too eager to beat the shit out of commies
Well, Commies did kill his wife, which was revealed as his whole motivation for becoming a superhero, but he didn't get that backstory until Wasp was introduced.

>>150572083
>It was only in the 2000s that retards like Bendis started going HUR DURR WIFE BEATER.
As has been said in this thread already, writers in the 2000s doing that was the result of years and years of "Marvel fans" who didn't read Avengers only knowing him from that one story and making jokes about it. Wizard Magazine had been doing it for years, online forums had been doing it for years. When 2000s Marvel started hiring writers who were't lifelong readers themselves, fandom ended up influencing how some characters were handled by them.

>>150580841
I think there are a number of characters like this at Marvel and DC. Sometimes it's characters getting torn down for shipper reasons, sometimes it's a legacy character and the reasons are NOT MUH, sometimes it's like Hank or Wanda and the character has done something that writers AND fans just won't let go of and no matter how much you think it's finally over, the next writer will probably bring it all up again.

>>150584702
>Do you think most writers, especially modern writers, are going to have any idea how to write an overtly religious character?
Only overtly religious villains, where their religion informs their villainy, like The Crusader, Stryker or Exodus.

>>150584428
While I don't doubt there are people within Marvel who genuinely do want to write Peter out and replace him with one or more of the Spiderverse losers, the cult-like mentality amongst Marvel writers and editorial is much more laser-focused on what they think Spider-Man comics "should be like".
>"Spider-Man is about youth"
>Spider-Man can't be married or be a father because that makes him OLD
>Spider-Man's relationship endgame can't be MJ because IT SHOULD'VE BEEN GWEN

In addition, the soap opera ups and downs of a superhero's personal life have been Flanderized into a "Peter Parker is supposed to be miserable with cursed-tier bad luck", with Slotto in particular normalizing the cursed luck so much.

>>150566939
It occurred to me that there was probably some fat-fetish guy who waifued Marilla as hard as you do for Rita.

>>150569998
For better or worse, it's down to The Slap being considered a classic Marvel story and a character-defining moment (as absolutely unfair to Hank as that is), a story that writers and editors want to keep doing callbacks and sequels to, while the Heroes Return creative teams for Iron Man and Avengers hated The Crossing and tried to retcon the whole storyline away and never mention it again, and a lot of the fandom were in support of this. There was a similar "don't talk about this story" mentality with most Spider-Man writers about the Clone Saga, nobody wanted to dwell on the things Iron Man did when he was mind-controlled or the things Spider-Man did when he had a breakdown. It's just a fact of Big 2 superhero comics that important, popular characters with their own solo books can just bounce back from egregious stories where they do bad things because the fandom just won't have it and most of the people working on the books afterwards just want to ignore it, while a lower-tier character can end up getting permanently defined by one bad story, no matter how many decades of heroism they had before it.

>>150554735
Because growing up is lame

>>150586334
How

>>150586178
Why did you have to make me learn about Marilla just now. But also thanks, I'm fighting an uphill battle to keep Rita Demara around either by comming art of her or mentioning her in any relevant situation I can. I'll bat for her as much as I do for Hank Pym.

>>150586334
Nah

>>150584702
>I say this as an atheist liberal myself
why would you ever admit this?

>>150584611
Along with starfire its one of zones biggest hits

Ants

>>150572083
I love how chuds often say that mental illness is not an excuse, until it's time to absolve a man hitting a woman.

>>150586334
Millennials really think this

>>150590741
...
When women emotionally physically and sexually abuse others it's always written off as either 'it's a man's fault" or "She's a woman she crazy/dindu nuffin".

Prove me wrong.

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>>150590741
That's not the point you think it is

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>>150558445
This. Peter did the same to MJ in the 90's(which is undoubtedly worse because Peter has super strength) but it was successfully memoryholed and never brought up ever again.

>>150590880
>Don't leave me peter!
>she cries with a fucking bloody nose and fat lip
>somehow, this is worse to people than Janet not even having a bruise from being smacked on the cheek

>>150590880
>>150591068
Nobody fucking read Clone Saga

>>150591143
people read only to remind future generations that it was the worst Spiderman story ever made (so far)

>>150591068
don't you mean "not as bad to people"?

>>150591296
it was a typo, i meant to say "this isnt worse to people"

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>>150557280

>>150591527
This would be acceptable if they'd give us a lingerie Janet figurine. I'd display Hank smacking the shit out of her on my coffee table.