Why do people have such a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of something like Sonic being taken seriously?
It's because it looks silly
>>150611775>knee-jerkit isnt a knee jerk reaction, its a conditioned response to the fact that everyone and their mom thinks that making super-edgy sonic is a brand new and exciting idea
>>150611810So does many other properties like TMNT but I never see anyone talking about that.
People are unimaginative bores. They don't like "thing that wasn't thing being thing." I, for one, couldn't be happier with the way Archie Sonic turned out. To me, boring and predictable Sonic is boring and predictable Sonic.
>>150611775Because that panel is not "Sonic being taken seriously" done the slightest bit well. The narration and imagery do not mix.
>>150611775If you're talking about here its just autists from /sth/ who go "not muh sonic" feel free to ignore them.
>>150611810/thread>>150611870nobody pretends TMNT is serious
>>150611775Anon, what the fuck are you going on about? Sonic stories have always been serious. They've been serious since the Adventure Era.
>>150611775Why do you make this thread still? like I feel everything said on either the pro's or cons, the for or against has been said on the topic?
>>150611943Sure they do. And gruesome. And not just the Mirage comics.
>>150611943Dude the comics that began TMNT were serious
>>150611891IDW is worse but I don't see it get pushback here like Archie, something that has been canned for years has.
Sonic is fucking lame
>>150611947I don't remember Sonic ever being that serious in what I've played. Maybe in a saturday morning cartoon kind of way, but I still distinctly remember a point in SA1 where Sonic falls out of the sky with a cartoonish noise accompanying him, then literally squishes into a pancake when he hits the ground, only to immediately get up and shake his head in slight annoyance.It sounds more like your entire perception of "serious" is skewed because you only pay attention to kids media. There's tons of other stuff out there to enjoy if you want something "serious", Sonic is just a waste of time on that front if you're actually interested in quality media.
>>150611976Archie is fun. That's reason enough for at least 1 guy who just "doesn't get it" to make it his goal in life to ruin everyone else's fun.
It's because millennials suffer from irony poisoning. They can't comprehend something taking its self seriously without being self-deprecating. So when something like sonic tries to be serious they lash out by calling it bad just because it goes against what they think it should be.
>>150611980Nah
>>150611775https://desuarchive.org/co/search/image/IRW-JaP-jF9Nq-iasFoyXg/Bot thread.
>>150611775Why did Sonic look like an arrowhead in the Millar run?
>>150612036And on tbe reverse end we have people who'd eat up things like Loonatics Unleashed and Advent Children.
People here complaining that "millenials are why i can't have serious sonic!!" are like 27 and have never looked at anything more sophisticated than young adult fiction in their entire life.
>>150611810Eventually you grow up and realize this simple truth, and that anything else is a cope.
>>150611775Gonna be totally honest here, it's because Sonic's brand is pitifully weak. No, not his character design (at least relative to merchandising) - his "brand", the fact that Sonic products have ranged from mediocre to unambiguously shit so much longer than the IP has ever been GOOD, sans character designs. Brightly-colored fruity spandex capeshit guy #97302198401 can be taken "seriously" because there's enough goodwill with the brand, but any attempt to do the same with Sonic will fall flat because for more than a decade, the punchline has been:>Sonic was never good
>>150611891I agree
>>150612441>Brightly-colored fruity spandex capeshit guy #97302198401Stop projecting
>>150611775Funny fans of initially silly pieces of media will shank anyone that tries to take the material seriously but fans of initially dark/fucked up media can easily double dip between taking the media both in a silly and serious fashion.
>>150611775Because he's a blue rat in sneakers voiced by Urkel
>>150611775Same reason no one tries to make serious drama with Bugs Bunny.
>>150612631Except Sonic isn't tonally like Bugs Bunny.
>>150612282Actually, growing up is not dismissing something on surface level appearances.
>>150612631They could if they weren't cowards.
>>150612553Not that I want to contribute to this topic much but Urkel hasn't voiced Sonic officially in 26 years
>>150612013Go watch the cutscenes for Sonic Adventure again, as well as Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic 06. If seeing Knuckles' entire clan getting wiped out by Chaos because of their lust for power, or seeing a 12 year old getting shot during a raid by the military, or watching Sonic fucking die and have it cause the end of the world isn't serious to you, then I don't know what to say.
>>150612827>Shadow the hedgehog>06 Lmao. No one takes those games seriously. Those were the games that unironically killed the franchise.
>>150611775Ignoring the picture (that's unearned in context) it is a matter of low empathy. They have a hard time feeling anything for fictional humans who are otherwise almost exactly like themselves, it's completely impossible for them to invest emotional resonance in the situations of alien factors like little animal people.It's not much different from why period pieces work so hard to balance accuracy and shallow appeal. Without the prime assumption in place, it's just not going to hit the notes in their heads.
>>150611775Cause sonic 06 having him macking on a full grown human woman.
>>150611968No they weren't, they were over the top parodies of serious edgy comics like Frank Miller's Daredevil
>>150612868The point I'm making is that Sonic stories have been serious for a while now. At least they used to before 2010.
>>150612964If she was a bird I think that would've cause less issues
>>150612504>saying this about Sonic, the franchise that popularized melodrama and edgy OCs
>>150611943>nobody pretends TMNT is seriousThis comic was a best seller precisely because it was serious
>>150612989>At least they used to before 2010.Forces was an attempt at bringing seriousness back but they completely fucked it up with goofy lines like Sonic being tortured for months and Infinite's entire existence. They finally nailed it in Frontiers though.
Because they are badly written. It takes mastery to go thru tones seamlessly and Sonic has never had that. It ends up being the kind of media you can only really take seriously if you're autistic AND black.
>>150611775>>150611928Everything in this panel looks so fucking goofy, he looks like a car wheel and gives a 2deep4you monologue while killing a sentience-less robot
>>150612994Honestly hardly different from Jessica Rabbit and Rodger.
>>150613154This comic got super gross once they started fucking.
>>150613154Aesthetically and tonally WAY different. Sonic is basically making out with a Final Fantasy character and its backed by awful writing that makes it hard for the player to accept an interspecies romance.
>>150612673It's not dismissing, you just realize that "serious Sonic" and stuff like that is going to be inherently limited. It's something you eventually grow out of to a degree after you are no longer in your edgy teenager phase. But that's not to say you can't have a healthy mix of serious and fun.
>>150612013This is the catch imo, serious mature Sonic is hamstringed by being a kid’s idea of serious and therefore edgy at best. The artists who like Sonic enough to do it well, like corny shit like Sonic for a reason and refuse to break it in ways that would take it there.
>>150613312Believing a "goofy" art style or story concept makes something inherently incapable of handling mature themes or any attempt at doing so inherently "dissonant" is ironically, an extremely immature attitude in of itself, it only shows that (You) can't take it seriously solely due to your preconceived biases. Even Vincent Van Gogh's art style could be considered "goofy", but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who actually thinks it would be ill-suited to mature themes.
>>150613572>comparing sonic to van goghjust give up on life nigga
>>150613753The Incredibles 1 has the goofiest art style of any Pixar movie (yes, even more than the one you're about to accuse of being "muh calarts grubhub beanmouth") and yet no one would argue it's not at least trying to be taken seriously.
>>150613753The entire conversation was about goofy looking art styles and concepts with serious themes. Try keeping up.
>>150613753The point is looking silly isn’t Sonic’s problem, something else is wrong with it
>>150613789Sonic needs to have self-awareness. Self-awareness in the sense of "we should probably treat this serious moment with subtlety and in an understated manner because there's a bunch of cartoon mascots on screen", which is how you avoid moments like pic related.You need to read more. Preferably something that matches your age range. Gain some perspective outside children's cartoons.
>>150612989You're doing that thing autists do where you're expecting everyone else to have the same knowledge you do.If he specifically said "what I've played", then there's a very good chance he never bothered with games like 06 and and Shadow because they're not that great in the first place. Plus three examples across a franchise's thirty-plus year existence make those instances seem more like outliers than anything else.
>>150611775how autistic do you have to be to look at this panel and be unable to comprehend why people can't take it seriously
>>150612989>The point I'm making is that Sonic stories have been serious for a while nowOne of the most autistic lines I've ever seen typed on this board. Good job.
>>150614067How is he wrong?
>>150613154I think that's more accepted since they are in a same art style, they are both toons so it's less jarring. Though I also think the main issue with Sonic and Elise was the writing since it's fun to joke about Sonic having a human woman lust.
>>150612066Incompetent artists. The older Archie Sonic comics have the worst art I have ever seen and not a bit charming. Ken Penders I'm pretty sure.
>>150611947They haven't been always serious. This latest era of games haven't been serious.
Why are Sonicfags so autistic
>>150614620Most of the modern boost-era games still take their premises and stakes fairly seriously. Only Colors and Generations were played for laughs.
>>150614695Lost World was.
A story taking itself seriously =/= the juvenile, tone deaf melodrama of the archie comics.
Its never been done well.
>>150612673There is literally nothing more childish than a desperate need to be "mature".
>>150614854Eh, about 50/50 for Lost World. Most of the Deadly Sux were indeed treated like complete jokes but Zavok draining the life out of the world wasn’t and the Tails angst was also very humorless.
>>150614919a desperate attempt to be mature is exactly what these corny archie stories are
>>150614673
>>150611943>nobody pretends TMNT is seriousThe first TMNT media had them literally killing shredder, you retarded underage.
>>150615079Meanwhile Mario is an extroverted Italian chad
>>150614919Taking yourself seriously isn't a desperate need to be mature. Constantly derriding yourself with self aware humor is far more immature.
>>150612112>Loonatics UnleashedWas massively tuned down in terms of edge, so it just became looney tunes but they throw hands>Advent childrenFF7 was always somewhat dark, don't renember AC being that edgy, fuck, it ends with the main villain basically getting comboed to death by the power of hope.
>>150615108TMNT is a parody of gritty serious comics. Thus, to be an effective parody, by nature it must occasionally be gritty and mature, even if in a tongue-in-cheek way.
>>150615123>simps for a woman who never returns his feelings for decades>chad
>>150615178meanwhile Sonic gets raped and BTFO'd everyday
>>150613176
>>150611775why does sonic attract so many edgerlods
>>150615268Because he was conceived and marketed as the edgy alternative to Mario
>>150611980This
People have no problem when sonic is written serious in the vein of a shonen anime.It's when you start trying to make sonic about the holocaust that people look at you like you're retarded.
>>150615399>People have no problem when sonic is written serious in the vein of a shonen anime.Yes they do. Because its fucking stupid.
>>150615399>It's when you start trying to make sonic about the holocaust that people look at you like you're retarded.
>>150615417>Adventure to 06 is fucking stupidShut up, Boco.
>CTRL+F Frontiers>Only one result.That's why. Nobody played the game where they succeeded at it.
We can agree Shadow makes the franchise fresh because when he makes stuff serious its ironically funny and meme worthy.
>>150615442>ironically funny and meme worthy.Fuck off Arin Hansen
>>15061543306 was incredibly fucking stupid.
>>150615417I mean, it can be okay as DBZ level of seriousness, not los miserables level of seriousness.
>>150615442>>150615467Shadow/Arin: Do you like my cock?
>>150611775Because Sonic's entire purpose was to be the mascot for a now dead company and appeal to children so their parents would buy their shitty consoles and gamesTrying to have him into a serious war story is like trying to have a serious drama starring Ronald McDonald.
>>150615661Sonic was serious from the very beginning. He was intended to be a more serious and high stakes alternative to Mario.
>>150615178Aren't they confirmed canon in japan?
>>150612631Loonatics Unleashed?
>>150611775Archie never executed the idea well. At best, it was cringe kino.
>>150615707He's a speedy blue hedgehog who fights an egg-shaped manchild with a carnival fetish designed to look like Teddy Roosevelt and named after a Beatles song. Its a cartoon.
>>150615721No. They officially came out recently to say Mario and Peach are just friends.
>>150615417Shut up, moron.
This faggot has been tripfagging for over a decade you all should have filtered him already.
>>150615399Like when they made Knuckles Jewish in the Knuckles show?
>>150615758You're only making me find it more interesting that other platformers can get a million times more edgy and not catch the same flak for it
>>150615831Knuckles had a show?
>>150615758Robotnik is a beatles song?
>>150615901Those are GOOD games. Nothing Sonic has ever done while being serious was ever good.>>150615917Eggman, stupid.
>>150614489>Ken PendersSpeaking of. Did you guys know he will publish or published a (clearly not biased at all) paper about his legal battle with Archie?Word is he also plans to make a movie about it.
>>150615945Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are considered some of the best games in the franchise. Sonic 3 was also serious. So was Sonic CD.
>>150615901OG Megaman, Legends and Battle Network/Star Force are not really that edgy.It's in the X and Zero series that shit gets really fucked up.
>>150615441*Blue Garfield standing around in an Unreal Engine asset flip saving his shitty damsel cheerleaders so they can take turns getting 5 minute pretentious speeches from him and Amy crooning about “the cosmic love vibrations of the universe I must share” between puzzles of rearranging Porgs oops i mean Kocos*Frontiers was stinking garbage on the same level of Forces. The only thing that changed since 2017 is the fandom became slop-eaters who fanatically insist the series is “ayo PEAK duuhhhh”
>>150615910No. Wade Whipple had a show. Knuckles was a guest star.
>>150615441Frontiers falls on what >>150615552 said. People are okay with Sonic having shonen-level of seriousness. You even have Sonic going super saiyan and normalfags unironically finding it cool.>>150616085Frontiers lived by the giant boss fights with hype music the rest of the game was mid.
How would a Mario comic be if it was written by these faggots?
>>150616169The boss music sucked.
>>150615826Boco isn’t even close to being the worst poster in Sonic threads. I’ll take Boco anyday over Tailscel’s spamming bullshit, you can’t filter him.
>>150612036But Sonic as a protagonist is an irony poisoned chili dog consumer that's too cool for anything whose biggest superpower is doing a pop culture reference.
>>150612112Advent Children looked pretty and glazed FF7 a lot, even if it did do damage like put KH-like shit into FF and make Cloud into a colossal faggot for over a decade.
>>150615790In Japan they called them a couple and "very close"
Is there any zoomer over the age of 15 who actually thinks Sonic is "cool"?
>>150615831No, like >>150615418
>>150611775Because the mandate is stupid, much like many other similar "status quo" mandates, but people still like Robotnik, anthro girls, and Tails, so they tolerate it for the memes. The alternative is to fracture the fanbase even more, which is only tenuously being held together.
>>150615758Not to mention Sonic does a Goku impression to blow up a Death Star with the Teddy Roosevelt/Beatles reference guy's face on it.But American kids that weren't exposed to Dragonball until years after the fact took that at face value and probably thought Sonic invented Super Saiyans.
>>150616248That was before, this is now
>>150616208this is why everyone bullies you, shadow sperg
>>150611775A PSA for those unaware:Do not seriously engage in these threads. OP has a set of template threads he rotates through (all about the same subject), and literally copy-pastes responses from previous spam threads and has conversations with himself to make these threads seem more active than they really are. (see pic related and >>150613879)He does this across multiple boards, and isn't interested in having an actual discussion on the given topic. Don't indulge in his mental illness.Have a nice day.
>>150611775>Why do people have such a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of something like Sonic being taken seriously?Because that Sonic Freedom Fighters cartoon and the Archie comic with the same characters homes a fandom of really annoying people who refuse to let go of that era of Sonic that exists because of America's need to Americanize japanese media I don't know when Freedom Fighters went into production, Sonic 2 was released in 1992 and FF was released in 93 but the show could have been in production just a bit before the game came out so outside of the first game the Writers wouldn't have much to else to work with for a show>>150611870Because TMNT was already edgy when it came out and kept a somewhat serious tone per most of it's adaptions and occasionally leaning into body horror
>>150611775If you're going to use goofy little critters to tell a grim serious story, you have to absolutely, totally commit to it. Cerebus did this. Bone did this. Sonic did NOT do this. Archie took a fun lighthearted game with goofy "rad-i-tude" marketing and turned it into a gritty comic series, all while Sonic also had a goofy screwball morning cartoon series. Which was soon replaced with a gritty serious cartoon series. It's just too jarring. Instead of gradually getting more serious over a long stretch of time like Cerebus did, they tried to have their cake and eat it too and the result is tonal whiplash which, to non-autistic people who don't live and breathe Sonic, comes across as very silly and, oddly, more juvenile than just maintaining a light tone. (for what it's worth, the Sonic Adventure games did a better job of bringing a more serious tone to Sonic)
>>150616416Only the irrelevant comics nobody gave a shit about were edgy. Most people were introduced to the turtles from the 80’s cartoon which was comedic.
>>150616375It's really weird to see people keep posting even after this gets pointed out. Or is it OP ping ponging between multiple IPs? What's even the goal here?
>>150616582to be fair I opened the thread and posted without going through and reading any of it. This is how I post in most threads, actually.
>>150614033>how autistic do you have to be to look at this panel and be unable to comprehend why people can't take it seriouslyHe's a Sonicfag, so pretty damn autistic.
>>150616332What ever you say(sarcasm)
>>150611775It sounds really silly in concept but it can work.>For the first time in his life sonic is devoid of humorThat honestly sums up the problem with a lot of attempts: trying so hard to be serious and/or dark that they sand down all the actual character from the series and the whole thing turns dull.
>>150613154Roger and Jessica are the same species, Cartoon. They're just cartoons taking different shapes, but they're a far cry from actual humans. Sonic, ESPECIALLY in 06, goes out of its way to differentiate from Sonic Funny Animals, regular animals, humans, and whatever the fuck Eggman is supposed to be. None of these things are compatible with each other.
>>150611810Silly little guy vs the horrors of the world has been a classic storytelling set piece for centuries.
>>150619646>Bruhhhh you're comparing classical literature to sonic bruhhhhhhhhhhExpect this to be the only response you'll get from people in this thread.
>>150612066They ever make a sonic car air freshener ?
>>150620040Are you autistic too realize why?
>>150612979This.
So what I'm getting is: >Sonic with a Dragon-Ball kind of tone = works>Sonic trying to do Death Note = too much a tone shift to feel organic
>>150611775It's always written horrendously. Serious Sonic stories can be done well (Adventure 2, Unleashed, Shadow Gens) but a lot of the time it winds up sounding hamfisted and looking goofy (06, Shadow, a bunch of Archie shit).
>>150619646The OG Pinocchio book sucks.
It's hard to take sonic seriously because the series is a cast of big headed anthropomorphic primary colors. The design space doesn't look beyond "The blue one is fast, the yellow one is smart, and the red one is strong!".If you want it to be taken seriously, start by asking some simple but necessary questions: Why are they naked?Why do they only wear gloves? Why are none of these children supervised?Things consistently get weirder and more uncomfortable the further you get into the world they live in but the reality to all these questions and more is painfully simple: Sonic is a corporate mascot for a children's toy company.The only people asking for these changes are just emotionally stunted wayward souls that never reconciled their childhood, and don't know how to relate to adult problems without being told in bright, primary colors
>>150611775What >>150620641 said and add to it:The concept is a forest animal turn hero to save other forest animals from robots that are trying to use them as fuel/life force. It's not so much that it's "taken seriously" that's bad. It's the fact it is trying to be too human with the material.
>>150620168Another way to look at: Watership Down can't work with the animals looking like noodle arm anthros with how horror graphic and moral heavy the story is they need to look like something grounded in reality. Amphibia however can look that ridiculous because the narrative runs beside the strange/silly appearances of the cast, with the morality and tone of violence. Sonic's front loaded attitude makes story telling harder for most because his "edge" in that world would not be seen as edge to most readers and so they go a step to far and he's just silly.
Imagine if someone made a Mickey Mouse comic that had shit about the holocaust, abortion, carpet bombing and communism, this is what people see the Sonic comics as
>>150616582Well I made a single post in this thread, and someone responded to me with sincere engagement. To that extent, I got what I wanted, regardless of whenever the OP intended. What's the problem after that?
>>150616375>>150616582I'm bluntly fine with this.My best guess is they are trying to keep traffic up and I much rather it be stuff like this than say forcing a narrative about e-people no one actual cares about or trying to force e-drama. So yeah I'll take "Why do people think the Hulk would lose to Superman?" posted daily over "Look at this nobody tweet" or "Hey [dumb retard] is the most popular indie person right now and you are all seething"
>>150620479Stfu amerilard
>>150620641>>150620678>dude mutant turtles who are ninjas and fight a man who wears a samurai helmet in the modern day and have an vigilante ally who uses sports gear as weapons and go to space to fight triceratops aliens is super grounded!>Anthropomorphic animals fighting a mad scientist? Nah that's too silly.
>>150611775I may be SONIC!
>>150621333Yes
>>150621333I'm not going to validate you with a serious response until you speak like an adult and communicate your thoughts clearly without >implications.
>>150621333> is super grounded!No one has ever said that and the few times they actually did that it went really bad. Even the 1990 film balanced out their tone to be more surreal than grounded.
>>150612979>>150615108the comics evolved past the first issue and were very serious
>>150621376The implications there are pretty clear unless you're the one with autism.
>>150615108killing doesn't equal serious in terms of story telling.
>>150621432Write it out. We can take this step by step if you actually want to discuss this, I'm not going to play grabass with you
TMNT stopped being a parody after the first issue
>>150621491Why is Sonic able to be taken seriously but TMNT can't? You don't want to go down this route, because the obvious will become clear.
>>150611775Define "seriously"
>>150621527What >>150621544 said because TMNT isn't that serious and it's peak fame and sales was when it was very silly. Not even the 2003 reboot had the sales of the original cartoon.
>>150621652 fuck off nigga >>150613022
>>150621527>Why is Sonic able to be taken seriously but TMNT can't? The biggest reasons? Intent, design, and world building. TMNT is a goofy series, but it leans into the fact that it's off kilter from the start. The turtles are canonically gross freaks, and all their interactions stem from that. Leaning into that actually benefits their stories.Sonic however, is a mascot first and foremost from design to concept to execution. That question about "Why does he only wear gloves?" isn't just pointless, his design is necessarily sanitized piece of corporate media, and the more you stray from that the less he does his job.
>>150621523and went back to one after the first 5 episodes of the Cartoon. The comics were very overshadow by the goofy cartoon that had pizza monsters and purple "zipps"
>>150621673It's sales were nothing to the cartoon, in fact their are Sonic comics that sold as good as Last Ronin in the 90s.
>>150621739the point is TMNT has and can be taken seriously.
>>150621652>>150621739>>150621754>A silly cartoon was popular therefore this franchise can never be seriouswhat kind of logic is this? TMNT is a flexible franchise that can be both gritty and light hearted
>>150621733Except Sonic had serious shonen plots from the very beginning, going back to the Japanese game manuals. He was always intended to be a more serious and high stakes alternative to Mario. Also, TMNT was dark, bloody and gruesome from the very start. Sonic wasn't nearly that dark, but he started from a place of seriousness. Sonic was a colorful mascot, but his games were played straight; IE no jokes or meta shit, it was a straightforward plot to stop Eggman. In the case of the Sonic Adventure games, they were played straight. When things were lighthearted, they were lighthearted. When things got serious, it was serious. That's the real issue with media nowadays, nothing can be played straight or it's seen as edgy and tryhard. Given this board, a serious plot with charming designs isn't out there.Anyone talking about 'children's character' or uses children as an argument as to why something can't be sincere or straightforward has no argument and is ironically just as childish if not moreso for thinking that way. >>150621783So can Sonic.
>>150620936>I'm fine with bots making fake threads for fake engagement because some other thing that isn't impeded at all annoys meWe have twitter for "people" like you, go there and stay there.
>>150621802>Also, TMNT was dark, bloody and gruesome from the very start. Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it wasn't goofy. The turtles are intentionally unconventional heroes. They're gross, they're gritty, they're ugly, they shine brighter the more dirt you throw at them. So when you throw them into a bloody situation, it's more weird if they don't handle it.>Sonic was a colorful mascot, but his games were played straight; IE no jokes or meta shit, it was a straightforward plot to stop EggmanBeing played straight isn't the same as being serious, though. It's played straight because it refused to go in depth. What is marble zone, why is eggman there? Who knows!The TMNT game from the nes has more depth than sonic. Reflect on that.
>>150621888You came into a thread you don't like, that you know is forced, to get upset at the one person that said they were OK with it? Shit man, here's a (You)
>>150621968This is literally devolving into the same argument. >Sonic can't be taken seriously because of some arbitrary set of rules I've imposed on the series because of my own bias >Being played straight isn't the same as being serious, though. It's played straight because it refused to go in depth. What is marble zone, why is eggman there? Who knows!Eggman is slowly turning the world into his own roboticized paradise. The marble zone actually has several bits of lore in the game manuals, along with Angel Island. Sonic was always growing more serious and epic in stakes and tone from the very beginning. The adventure games just continued off of that.
>>150621968>Being played straight isn't the same as being serious, though. It's played straight because it refused to go in depth. What is marble zone, why is eggman there? Who knows!Also, if you don't think that Adventure 1 and 2 are serious with literal genocide, government conspiracy theories, etc, then I don't know what else to tell you.
>>150611775Inevitably the writer fails to understand the difference between Sonic (the franchise) being taken seriously and Sonic (the character) being taken seriously. Most fuckups are caused by the latter. You can take the franchise seriously but if you don't understand the character's appeal then it's garbage. Fans keep pointing to the Adventure games, especially 2, for a reason. The game stories themselves are mostly taken seriously, especially 2, but Sonic the character never stops being Sonic. You can still fuckup in this way, like with 06 and Forces, but in general when comics and fan content fucks up it's by fucking up Sonic as a character.
>>150621802>Also, TMNT was dark, bloody and gruesome from the very start.TMNT was created as a spoof and satire on grungy dark Miller type comics. Specifically his run on Daredevil at that point that introduced a bunch of shit that later readers think is cliche by now. All of the Catholic crossover stuff, the ninjas, the hand, Elektra, Stick etc etc etc. TMNT is literally a joke about that and the popularity of X-men at the time. So if your argument is based on a spoof of something, then well there you go.
>>150622013>>Sonic can't be taken seriously because of some arbitrary set of rules I've imposed on the series because of my own biasBeing a corporate mascot is not arbitrary, it is fundamental to what he is. You seem to think I'm saying he can't go different directions because of now he started: I'm not. I'm saying that at the end of the day, he is not just sonic, he is Sega.
>>150622013>>Sonic can't be taken seriously becauseIt's a side scroller that tried to give a reason for a Hedgehog to race from left to right and trying to seem edgier in doing so in response to a plumber slowly hopping from left to right. The "freeing" imprisoned animals, was part of the PR teams attempt at making it have "story". "He frees not kingdoms but the little guy!" So you basically have fallen for 90's era corp PR slop. Hope this helps.
>>150622099>The "freeing" imprisoned animals, was part of the PR teams attempt at making it have "story". https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(16-bit)/ManualsYou have some required reading to do. Sonic always had a story going back into the japanese game manuals for the 16 bit games.
>>150622030>literal genocide, government conspiracy theories, etc, then I don't know what else to tell you.The topics are only as serious as you are capable of handling them. Believe it or not, these are common topics in children's media. And in Sonic, it's hard to take genocide seriously when the race that got wiped out had the proportions is Mickey Mouse and wore his gloves.
>>150622079Just because he's a corporate mascot doesn't mean you can't have him in a dark and serious story.>>150622133>Dude they're 3 feet tall now instead of 6 feet tall. Now I can't take it seriously.
>>150622131This link is worthless, dude, directly cite shit.Seriously, this isn't reddit and this thread isn't going to be up forever.
>>150622148>Just because he's a corporate mascot doesn't mean you can't have him in a dark and serious storyNo, it means he is completely at the mercy of how the company wants to represent itself.
the closest thing to a serious sonic story that works is the the book Speedboy!. I will not elaborate.
>>150622030It's hilarious how neutered kids media is when your idea of "serious" is stuff that would be tame for an average episode of GI Joe or any other average Saturday morning cartoon.
>>150622131>info.sonicretro.orgYikes. Why are all you sonic fans so fucking deranged? It feels like MK Ultra shit.
>>150622148>>Dude they're 3 feet tall now instead of 6 feet tallI take it about as seriously as watching smurfs get killed. Which is more stupid and funny than anything.Again, that's a piece of media that was regularly about genocide, does that mean it was handled maturely or seriously? No.
I think people who can't take media seriously if it's "too silly" just lack imagination and a normal level of suspension of disbelief
>>150622200>>150622153It's hilarious how you're now refusing to read any evidence I give because now you've been proven wrong.>>150622208>Duuuuuuuude I can't take it seriously Why are you complaining to me about it? Take it up with Sega.
>>150622195Yeah, and that also factors into why something like Pokemon has a much wider appeal than Digimon.I'm not saying this as any sort of critique of Digimon, just that it also gets regularly mocked for a lot of bizarre design choices that ultimately limit it's audience.Companies are free to do that, but it comes at a price.
>>150622240I think people who need to connect real world issues to a fantasy setting to validate what they're watching as "serious" suffer from arrested development. Tolkien famously said that metaphor sucks (not quoting the guy) and the older I get the more I understand.
>>150622265Pokémon has a wider appeal because it's dumbed down schlock. McDonald's is the same way and yet nobody would call their food great.
>>150622243>refusing to read any evidenceJust cite it, dude, 4chan is inherently ephemeral with limited number of characters and posts per thread. Even if someone is going through your link right now, they're not going to get back to this thread before it 404's
>>150622272>I think people who need to connect real world issues to a fantasy setting to validate what they're watching as "serious" suffer from arrested developmentare you referring to another post in this thread or something? You can have serious stories that aren't reflections of reality
>>150622243>read any evidenceThis isn't a court trial. Though I wouldn't be surprised that many court cases involve Sonic fans like you. There is probably a ven diagram at the FBI that shows that. If you need to wage war that a game is super serious and "cite" places named "info.sonicretro.org" it might be because they thing you're trying to defend isn't what you think it is.
>>150622274Yeah, that's part of what I'm getting at.Being serious and having depth comes at a cost.At the end of the day, does your character wear gloves?
>>150622321>>150622293>It's unimaginably hard for me to simply click the link and readThis is seriously the level we're at right now?
>>150622294I'm referring to what you typed, that's why I quoted you. And you can have serious fantasy stories that are wholly unrelated to any real world approximation or assumption a reader wants to make. That's why I (sort of) quoted Tolkien saying the same thing.
>>150622243>Take it up with Sega.I'm fine with sonic being shallow, you take it up with Sega
>>150622332So your argument is a fallacious appeal to popularity and that's it? Pretty disappointing for someone who seemed so fired up to debate this topic.
>>150622334Welcome to 4chan, newfag.
>>150622334I don't think what you're trying to make me click is a site that is an unbiased, non agenda, fount of knowledge that will make me change my world view of Sonic the fucking Hedgehog.
>>150622332Digimon is literally set up right now to become incredibly popular again with new releases and the game devs even said they don't want to just target children anymore. So, your entire thesis is wrong.
>>150622372>Cite evidence >Refuse to look at it because uhhhh because I just don't want to okay?Holy fuck lmao.
>>150622353>Pretty disappointing for someone who seemed so fired up to debate this topic.It's not my fault you took 13 posts to figure out what I was getting at. It's what I said from the start.
>>150622332>At the end of the day, does your character wear gloves?kek. Great point.
>>150622404>Cite evidenceOne more time. I don't think what you're trying to make me click is a site that is an unbiased, non agenda, fount of knowledge that will make me change my world view of Sonic the fucking Hedgehog.
>>150622375>they don't want to just target children anymore.Or at all, according to who you ask.
>>150622375>Digimon is literally set up right now to become incredibly popular againThis is called "speculation". I like your enthusiasm. But until it happens it's not evidence.
>>150622406Your argument isn't even correct considering Digimon is doing the same thing and now is on track to become insanely popular again.
>>150622375>Digimon is literally set up right now to become incredibly popular again with new releasesPokemon clones are always going to get traction. more so ones that allow more violence. Palworld amirite? But here is he thing. No one plays Digimon or Palworld and goes "Holy shit man. I need to get the next expansion and find out if Agumon took his people to the promised land and did so by committing genocide and killing all the Betamon!" People by those games to collect them all. If you are buying those games for pseudo-realistic genocidal stories you should be put on a list.
>>150622460>>150622484It's literally the number 2 or number 3 most wanted Steam game right now. Stores are selling out of the game in Japan because of so many people buying it. https://x.com/Digimon_game/status/1972954130143740331You're completely wrong.
>>150622484>No one plays Digimon or Palworld and goes "Holy shit man. I need to get the next expansion and find out if Agumon took his people to the promised land and did so by committing genocide and killing all the Betamon!" People by those games to collect them all.It doesn't matter what people are buying it for. Your thesis that a dark story with a corporate mascot can't sell is fundamentally wrong.
>>150622423No, please continue. It's incredibly amusing to see what kind of mental gymnastics you'll do to avoid clicking something as simple as a link and reading what it says.
>>150622499>People buying a game means its for the story and not the game play>People in Japan are buying Digimon and it has nothing to do with the fact that monster collecting games started there. It's this story about APARTHEID!People like you vote. There's a scary story.
>>150622538It doesn't matter what people are buying it for. Your thesis that a dark story with a corporate mascot can't sell is fundamentally wrong.Now you're doing mental gymnastics and coping because your argument got destroyed.
>It's another "/co/ doesn't understand the nuances of tone and writing" thread and not understanding that bad writing doesn't inherently invalidate the contrast of tones in a story/franchiseHave you ever considered Sonic writers just don't know how to make a decent plot regardless of tone?
>>150622520>It doesn't matter what people are buying it for.Your whole argument is based on that. To connect this to the other anon, it would be like you arguing people buy McDonald's burgers because of the dark lore behind Ronald McDonald and not for the tasty psuedo meat, but then saying it doesn't matter why people buy the burgers when its pointed out how stupid that is.
>>150611976Archie stories could still catch your attention.I haven't seen anyone mention IDW since the metal virus, outside of Surge's appearances.
>>150622547>Now you're doing mental gymnastics and coping because your argument got destroyed.The irony of this post could be weaponized.
>>150622567>Your whole argument is based on that.No, it isn't. My argument is that you can tell stories with cutesy mascot looking designs and dark characters. Your argument in response was >They can't do that, it won't sell or won't have wide appeal I then show you an example of a series doing exactly what I said, and on track to sell well, thus proving your argument wrong.
>People are trying to paint Digimon as a dark and serious franchise>One of the mons is a talking pile of poo and his cartoon rat friendJust because a franchise has a story that wants you to take it seriously, doesn't make it a "serious" franchise in tone
>>150620641>Why are they naked?>Why do they only wear gloves?>Why are none of these children supervised?None of these questions actually need to be answered for it to be taken seriously. You could ask these questions about Marvel/DC: Why do the same countries still exist and have the same names if the point of divergence is before the UN was founded? After enough alien invasions and mad scientist attacks, why isn't any remaining debate on gas vs electric cars rendered null and void in favor of gravity modulators vs teleporter? Why isn't he voting age criticized much more harshly in a setting with a wide variety of demonstrably sapient species with drastically varying lifespans. Why are there so few background characters who *aren't* human-passing? And why do their cities still look like they're designed exclusively by and for humans? These questions simply aren't meant to be answered because they fundamentally do not matter.
>>150622614>My argument is that you can tell stories with cutesy mascot looking designs and dark characters.That's not an argument. You can make any story with any characters you want. There are no limits. The question is are people buying what you are selling based on that or something else. Is the vast majority of fandom and consumers buying the game because they like a friendly cute fast side scroller or because they want to see if that friendly, cute character commits genocide? The answer is simple, based on your unhinged energy in trying to convince yourself and the world that everyone is playing it for the latter and not the former. You are confusing why something sells with the elements YOU personally are, unhealthily, attracted to.
>>150622623>Why do the same countries still exist and have the same names if the point of divergence is before the UN was founded? After enough alien invasions and mad scientist attacks, why isn't any remaining debate on gas vs electric cars rendered null and void in favor of gravity modulators vs teleporter?That's a little different than "Why is the main character literally naked?"
>>150622682>The question is are people buying what you are selling based on that or something else. Is the vast majority of fandom and consumers buying the game because they like a friendly cute fast side scroller or because they want to see if that friendly, cute character commits genocide?This comes across to me as moving the goalposts. You made an argument that something wouldn't sell and have niche appeal because of the way it juxtaposes cute looking characters and dark story. I then show you an example of a series doing exactly what I said and on track record to sell well. Your response is now >W-well they didn't buy the game for that reason!This is autistically pedantic.
>>150622499>>150622470>in JapanDo you find it weird at all that you had to narrow it down to just Japan for it to be relevant?
>>150622725Steam is global, retard.
>>150622697In that you could make a stronger argument in favor of it *needing* an answer than you could for "Why is Sonic naked?", yes.
>>150611775>Why do people have such a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of something like Sonic being taken seriously?It's just Sonic's track record. A lot of the more serious Sonic games (Shad05, Sonic 06, Forces) have been ridiculous flops with lots of dumb stuff like "that DAMN fourth Chaos Emerald" or Knuckles getting 80% of the Resistance killed.It's like asking why people have a knee-jerk reaction to modern sequels to old 80s franchises. Because most of them are total shit.
>>150622738And?I'm looking at it's wish list right now and it's ranked 63
>>150622841https://steamdb.info/app/1984270/charts/Number 6 in top sellers. Just the demo by the way. Who knows how big the final game will be. It's gonna be huge.
>>150622622Stories can have both serious and silly things
>>150622720>This comes across to me as moving the goalposts.Becuase you're not that bright and you don't want to "lose" an argument that boils down to you trying to impose your personal subjective interest in elements of a franchise onto the broader consumer/fanbase. A fanbase you know doesn't agree with your take as evidenced by well, giving "evidence" and getting upset that people don't agree with your personal take. >This is autistically pedantic.It's not pedantic to ask what fans like about a popular IP when you keep stating it is because of "dark story elements" and everyone else is saying it's the gameplay. That is the crux of your argument. It is also why your argument fails. You need to learn what words mean before using them.
>>150622940Nothing of what I said was me imposing my own personal, subjective interests onto the consumer base of a product. That's a non-sequitur into a strawman. Nobody brought up why exactly people were buying the product, or their own personal, subjective reasons for doing so. You're now strawmanning me and putting words in my mouth because you know you're out of arguments and coping. Let me go down the list of events. >I say that you can tell a story with cutesy designs and dark stories >Your response is that it won't sell and have a niche appeal>I respond by showing you an example of a series doing exactly what I said and showing its selling well >Your response is now to try and point out that people aren't buying it for that reason when nobody brought that up in the first place. That's a clear example of you moving the goalposts after getting proven wrong. Either admit this or cope and get over it.
>>150622891I like your optimism, but you're going to burn yourself really bad by getting yourself hyped like this
>>150622896I didn't say they couldn't, just that existence of one does not dictate the tone of it.
>>150622755But the comparison doesn't really add up. I could see if we were talking about how flexible you can get with character design in terms of making characters more serious, but the world building itself is on a different level. The best comparison there would be talking about the geopolitical landscape of mobius maybe, but how would a series like Sonic even attempt to relate economic relations between the Spring yard Zone and Marble Zone?
>>150622940>It's not pedantic to ask what fans like about a popular IP when you keep stating it is because of "dark story elements"Never once did I state this. >fanbase you know doesn't agree with your take as evidenced by well, giving "evidence" and getting upset that people don't agree with your personal take.When did this happen exactly? Multiple people have come in here defending serious Sonic stories and agreeing with my posts. The people disagreeing have never stated themselves as Sonic fans. Unless you're talking about Digimon fans? In which case that boils down to one person.
>>150623020>Nothing of what I said was me imposing my own personal, subjective interests onto the consumer base of a product.It totally is, and you wanting to say something like "I say that you can tell a story with cutesy designs and dark stories" is you tryign to move away from the central topic and point you are losing. The cental topic is Sonic. Once again, a story can be done with any mix of elements. No one is arguing that. We are discussing the mix in Sonic and its appeal. Nothing else. So with that the question is real simple. Do you think more people buy and play Sonic, because they like the gameplay or because of "dark story" elements? What is the crux of its popularity? The next question is are the reasons for its popularity different than what YOU like about it? The conclusion is that the vast majority of people play Sonic because it is cute, the liek the gameplay and they have little to no interest in its story, dark or otherwise. You liking those elements does not mean that the vast majority do, and their purchasing, or engaging in the same media you do does not act as proof they like the elements you do.
>>150623153>It totally is, and you wanting to say something like "I say that you can tell a story with cutesy designs and dark stories" is you tryign to move away from the central topic and point you are losing.Nope. Because that was always my argument to begin with. Never once have I moved off of it. Are you just short circuiting now? >The cental topic is Sonic. Once again, a story can be done with any mix of elements. No one is arguing that. We are discussing the mix in Sonic and its appeal. Nothing else.Yes and your argument was that Sonic would become more niche by doing so. Then I point out a series like Digimon, which is now on track record to become popular again, doing the exact thing I described. Therefore, your entire thesis that Sonic couldn't sell well or be niche because of said mixture is completely wrong. >Do you think more people buy and play Sonic, because they like the gameplay or because of "dark story" elements? What is the crux of its popularity?Non-sequitur and extrinsic to my argument. >The next question is are the reasons for its popularity different than what YOU like about it? Non-sequitur and extrinsic to my argument.>You liking those elements does not mean that the vast majority do, and their purchasing, or engaging in the same media you do does not act as proof they like the elements you do.Appeal to popularity. Non-sequitur and extrinsic to my argument.
>all these serious replies in a blatant bot threadThe fuck is wrong with you people?
>>150623239I'm going to keep this simple, because it is simple and you're simple but you think you're "debating". People play and like Sonic because he is a cute mascot from the mascot era of gaming. A very very very very very very very very small number of people like Sonic to have "serious dark" stories for a bunch of reasons they swear are interesting and valid, but only appeal to themselves and the very very very very very very very very small number of people like them. These people tend to be unhinged.
>>150623239>Then I point out a series like Digimon, which is now on track record to become popular againIt'll be interesting if it actually happens, but currently, that's speculative. You really need to give better examples.
>>150623405Nice job admitting yourself as a schizo who can't defend his arguments. I'll be taking my leave then.
>>150623435Okay. Then Palworld. Literally had cute critters shooting photo realistic guns and killing people. Sold like crazy.
>>150623284These are months apart from each other and 2 different posters that downloaded the same image.Also, they're clearly human, bored ones at that, get better at detecting bots.
>>150623489Palworld was a flash in the pan.The better comparison with that is "Could you create a sonic-like and make it serious" and the answer is "sure".But palworld is not Pokemon and that wouldn't be sonic.
>>150621333TMNT is goofy as a concept, but the commitment to the serious grungy New York setting, freaky mutant villians, and other more grounded elements give it more weight, putting it in the same space as something like daredevil or spider-man. It’s grounded but with some fantastical/science horror elements. Sonic’s world is too cartoony and goofy for something like that
>>150623711It became popular. So that argument is completely wrong. >>150623737They literally did that in Adventure 1 and 2, and they're considered some of the best Sonic stories.
>>150623833>It became popular.But what became popular?Do people like palworld because it's serious, or because it's comical?
>>150623944Doesn't matter what people like it for. It became popular. So your argument is wrong.
>>150623974It matters if you're trying to maintain customers. Shock works if you want attention, but it fades if you don't have substance.
>>150624109My argument has nothing to do with that. My argument is that there are popular series that do this.
>>150611775Because it's Sonic, a character whose whole thing is being 90s executive's idea of a "cool and radical dude". Also if they at least didn't have Sonic's face visible in that panel it might be taken seriously, but the way it is just looks dumb.
>>150623489Palworld is literal satire. If you think people are taking that shit seriously and not laughing at the intentional absurdity of it, you are genuinely retarded.
>>150624217>My argument is that there are popular series that do this.Are you actually trying to argue in good faith, or are you trying to just declare victory? The discussion isn't about whether it can or can't be done, it's about long term health of the series, what "being serious" actually entails, and limiting factors that would make the execution either awkward, unwelcome, or shortlived.
>>150621968>Sonic was a colorful mascot, but his games were played straight; IE no jokes or meta shitOne of Sonic's most recognizable animations from the first (and every following game) is breaking the fourth wall and looking right at the player impatiently.
>>150625079A subtle thing
Why is Sonic so fucking lame?
Why do people have such a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of something like Zootopia being taken seriously?
>>150625107>IE no jokes or meta shit>e-except that, that doesn't count!lol
>>150625128>One meta joke is indicative of the entire tone
>>150620936>I'm fine with shit threads where OP endlessly argues in bad faith circles and pretends to be different people because there *could* be worse threadsOr maybe they should both fuck off.
>>150625164It was the entire basis of the character's personality in the 90s, and clear evidence of the developers' general attitude towards the game's intended "tone".So yes.
>>150624999Okay. These series are clearly doing well despite their darker tone. So no, your arguments are literally nothing. >>150625205No, it isn't. The OG Japanese manuals are not written in a 90s too cool for you way.
>>150625218>The OG Japanese manuals are not written in a 90s too cool for you way.Don't move goalposts. The original game has blatant meta shit through character animations, so obviously the intention was for players to not take everything 100% seriously and just have fun.
>>150625121What’s weird is that classical fables and fairytales with talking animals can be taken seriously if they’re just told in a straightforward and whimsical manner(like from a book with detailed illustrations) but something about your pic is so fucking goody I don’t know why
>>150625245Nobody here moved the goalposts. The story was written with a shonen style tone in mind. Also, your idea of taking everything 100% seriously is retarded. It's a game. Obviously the intention is for people to have fun with it. What point do you think you're proving?
>>150625302He thinks he's trolling in a way "smart" way. The saddest sort of person on this board and life.
>>150625302>Nobody here moved the goalposts.You were attempting to. The manuals have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The original devs were fine with meta jokes being included through character animations, which is indicative of their general attitude towards their silly mascot platformer. Sonic himself is a cartoon character who does silly cartoon things (like acknowledge the player). There is no strict shonen tone, just the devs having fun. Also stop talking to yourself. It's already been pointed out how blatant it is.
>>150625347>Y-you were attemptingNo, I wasn't. >The manuals have nothing to do with what I'm talking about So the actual story included in the manuals have absolutely no bearing on the tone that the developers wanted to put for their game? Sonic is not a silly cartoon in the realms of something like Bugs Bunny. He's far more like a shonen protagonist than a goofy cartoon. There is clearly a shonen tone once you actually read the manuals. https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(16-bit)/Manuals>Also stop talking to yourselfNever once have I talked to myself in this entire thread. You're fighting ghosts.
>>150622470>and now is on track to become insanely popular again.>trusting Bandai Namco to not totally fuck it all up like they always do
>>150625347Also, your point about "developers having fun" is just retarded. Yeah, no shit, developers have fun and put easter eggs in their games all the time. Doesn't mean that the entire tone revolves around them.
Sonic started out how Dragon Ball did: Fun wacky adventures. Then Cerebus Syndrome kicked in and it became a battle of demigods
>>150625427NTA but do you even know what is a Shonen IS? I'm serious here, because it's very obvious your idea of "shonen" is nothing more than a hyper limited viewpoint warped by western preconceptions. "Shonen" just means targeted towards preteen boys. That's it. It's has NOTHING to do with tone, or style, or storytelling potential. Only "whatever slightly older kids would pay money for".Gintama is Shonen.Roboco & Me is ShonenBobobobo-bobobo is ShonenDr. Slump is just as much Shonen as OG Dragon Ball/ZThe fact that you not only associate "Shonen" with "serious and edgy", but clung your entire identity to this nonsense argument is just wildly embarrassing AT BEST.
>>150625822Cool.Read this and get back to me. None of this refutes my argument. https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(16-bit)/ManualsI'm not wasting my time arguing semantics.
>>150620063>>150620998he cant further conceptualize the conversation, he is even ashamed to be white, let alone think his culture and ancestry matters.
>>150611810Fpbp
>>150625951How does that support your argument? The JP manual is just barebones "Oh geez, Eggman's up to no good again! Better stop 'em!". Eggman even does that cackling villain laugh that devolves into coughing that you see exclusively in parodies. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilLaughTurnedCoughingFitLike, this isn't even remotely serious, even for the concept of your ridiculous image of what you think "Shonen" is. It's kind of worrying that you unironically think otherwise.
>>150626221>How does that support your argument? The JP manual is just barebones "Oh geez, Eggman's up to no good again! Better stop 'em!"You mean setting up the action adventure tone which is common in a fighting shonen? I don't see many silly cartoons or parodies where the characters need to take macguffins and use them to transform into a Super Saiyan rip off to fight a giant robot in space. The tone here is clearly action-adventure. Not some funny, silly cartoon. You're arguing semantics and not actually refuting anything I'm saying.
>>150625218>These series are clearly doing well despite their darker tone. So no, your arguments are literally nothing.Palworld isn't really series, and the darker tone doesn't mean it's serious.I hope Digimon does well, but that still needs to be seen and begs the question of how it can be applied to sonic if it does.
>>150626335>darker tone doesn't mean it's serious.Semantic retardation
>>150625495thisEven if it does well there's a good chance the next game is in development hell again and kills all the momentum
>>150626306Sonic isn't really a shonen, he's more like a Kodomo like Doraemon
>>150626221https://pastebin.com/j3j5G1mQ (Sonic the Hedgehog (16 and 8-bit))https://pastebin.com/DPHFpZbY (Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-bit))https://pastebin.com/RSfChBxp (Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-bit))https://pastebin.com/WBRJccJ0 (Sonic CD)https://pastebin.com/4EpRMCjn (Sonic & Tails)https://pastebin.com/7ejLK3M6 (Sonic the Hedgehog 3)https://pastebin.com/Me8kcpHZ (Sonic the Hedgehog 3 ~Guardian of the Floating Island~)https://pastebin.com/E333bPg9 (Sonic & Tails 2)https://pastebin.com/7mBp2wNH (Sonic & Knuckles)Here's the translated Japanese game manuals. From here, it becomes obvious that Sonic's tone was more action adventure.
>>150626306>I don't see many silly cartoons or parodies where the characters need to take macguffins and use them to transform into a Super Saiyan rip off to fight a giant robot in space.How the fuck do you type this drivel and not realize that Sonic IS the parody? Sega wasn't directly aping Super Saiyan because they wanted to say something about the human condition or some shit.Like holy fuck, dude. This is obvious to anyone that isn't terminally autistic.
>>150625822It's hilarious how incoherent the whole argument is.>"Sonic should be a Shonen protagonist!">"So you mean a goofy moron that eats a lot, likes to fight and have fun, a la Goku, Luffy, Naruto, etc.?">"NO! He should be SERIOUS, BROODING, COMTEMPLATIVE! He should tackle SERIOUS topics, like RAPE and WAR!">"So you want a Seinen, then?">"NO!"Just utter lunacy.
>>150626493Just look at this for a moment and tell me if you think it’s actually serious.
>>150626618Hey, retard. Read these. >>150626582You're being intentionally obtuse and acting as if inspiration means parody and as such it means tone. It doesn't. Nothing about Sonic transforming, fighting Eggman, etc is played for laughs. It's not played as a joke. It's not played as a parody. It's played straight.
>>150626619Bleach is Shonen too.Also DB/DBZ often discuss a major issue with the current incarnation of Goku being less serious and cool than he used to be.Also, Naruto has lots of serious stuff in it, not sure why you think bringing that one up somehow invalidates his point.
>>150626619Nobody said any of this, and what's hilarious is how hard you have to strawman just to not acknowledge the very basic points I'm making.
>>150626707Your whole thread is crying like a bitch about why nobody, including Sega, takes your corporate mascot seriously.
>>150626772>Your whole thread is crying like a bitch about why nobody, including Sega, takes your corporate mascot seriously.You took it seriously enough to come into the thread and argue with me about it in the first place.>>150626619One Piece has rape, genocide and war in it.
>>150626790i was WAITING for some retarded brown soniccuck to say One Piece is deep and well written nexthttps://youtube.com/watch?v=_C03ZdM1aCs
>>150626790The fact that you think anyone in this thread is taking you seriously is the second biggest joke in the thread.
>>150627067You took it seriously enough to come into the thread and argue with me about it in the first place.
>>150626988This doesn't mean that those themes don't happen. Your point is completely refuted
>>150626790>rape, genocide and war in it.You either have to be a teen or in the grip of arrested development to think that these things instantly mean something is "serious" or are handled with the correct gravity. The subjects themselves don't make a piece of writing serious. Here is George Carlin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=03ryN7ARL1E&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fsca_esv%3D764700c983d0c1df%26sxsrf%3DAE3TifM4zkh3c5d5HuCZ1gwpE_C7CYbI9g%3A1759271814859%26udm%3D7%26fbs%3DAIIjpHxU&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY
>>150627238Okay. One Piece treats these themes with the correct gravity and is treated as deathly serious. Again, point still refuted. Are you going to have an actual conversation, or keep going on this moralizing tirades over nothing?
>>150626790Luffy is a literal cartoon character just trying to have fun while reaching his goal. Oda goes out of his way to ensure the series doesn't lose itself in darker themes; that's why he gave Luffy rubber powers and based his artstyle around western cartoons.Gesr 5 was Oda literally telling you to not take this comic made for children seriously, you autistic weirdo.
>>150627303More than one person is basically calling you an idiot in this thread. I just got here. I have never heard someone sell One Piece by way of "Hey man it's got rape, genocide and war in it". I don't think it would be a good sell. That's probably why it isn't sold that way. You should grow up a little and read other stuff. If you like genocide, war and rape so much you should stock up on that particular material. Maybe the juxtaposition will reveal something to you.
>>150623113Why would you even need to do any of that? If it's not relevant to the plot, then it's not relevant. You don't need to answer any of those questions to make a serious Sonic story.
>>150627374>>150627413One Piece treats these themes with the correct gravity and is treated as deathly serious. Again, point still refuted. Are you going to have an actual conversation, or keep going on this moralizing tirades over nothing?
>>150627374>>150627413What is up with people in these threads and absolutely refusing to argue in good faith or give any kind of effort in their replies? So many of these replies are just nothing arguments trying to troll around.
>>150627486>topic itself is obviously not made in good faith>"WAAH, WHY ISN'T ANYONE TAKING ME SERIOUSLY?!"
>>150626493>Semantic retardationThere's nothing semantic about it.Content can be dark, but the delivery and context is what makes it serious. If the content is vague or poorly written, then there's no gravity to it.
>>150627374The entire point of the story of One Piece, for the past 25 years, has been that being silly and weird does not prevent you from being capable of great things and worthy of respect.
>>150627442>One Piece treats these themes with the correct gravity and is treated as deathly serious.It really doesn't. Characters get plot armored out of the most ridiculous bullshit on a constant and regular basis and its you can tell from the moment that a character is introduced whether or not they just exist to move the plot forward. Which is even worse, because there are so many cases where the plot doesn't even move forward after that.
>>150627374>Gesr 5 was Oda literally telling you to not take this comic made for children seriously, you autistic weirdo.Fascinating, an actual 4Kids executive out in the wild.
>>150627673Name examples.
>>150627673
>>150627688Go find them yourself. You clearly know your taste better than anyone else.
Can people take bunnies in the middle east seriously?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUeHrR5u4Rk
>>150627688NTA but Kinnemon probably should've died.
>>150619646Pinnichio is way more tolerable to any adult than corporate mascot Fagnic
>>150627713>>150627807So... no examples?
>>150627572No you don't understand! It has DARK things in it, therefore it must be taken SERIOUSLY.
>>150611775how many times have you made this thread
>>150627688Which one? The end of the vast majority of the arcs is the same. The straw hats face off in a series of 1v1s with the henchmen because Luffy is incapacitated in some form, he finally shows up, fights the bad guy who was trying to kill everyone on the island and wins, then everyone waves at each other while sailing away and laughing to the next adventure. The series has clear progression, but its ridiculously slow to the point that large portions of it can be effectively skipped despite how supposedly grave the stakes involved were.
>>150628004Name examples of the show plot armoring people or how the dark themes aren't handled well.
>>150627944>Still trying to argue a strawman
>>150621333the worst thing that happened to this franchise is archie and satam fagsthe second worst thing is people who think TMNT, a superhero story in the vein of marvel who then got bastardized into a toddler cartoon, is the same as sonic just because "furries"the tones are entirely different, as are the intentions. it's like saying how to train your dragon and mickey mouse are the same thing because sentient animalsluckily for us to categorize but unluckily in the sense we have to put up with it, people in these categories often overlap
>>150622423>thing never happened>here's a scan of the thing that happened, not an opinion piece of it, but a scan of the thing that happened years ago, a direct historical document>I refuse to click it because it's inconvenient to meNTA but die
>>150627891>t.Billy
>>150628097>TMNT, a superhero story in the vein of marvelYou are wrong
>>150627891No, it's more tolerable to you, because you watched it as a kid instead of growing up reading Sonic.
>>150627807Kinnemon was the strongest Samurai on Wano, he lived through way too much to let himself dye like that. He got beat, but neither of the characters that beat him cared enough to finish him off.
>>150628160have you ever actually read TMNT? the comic where they tie their origin to a marvel event, where villains and factions are based on marvel concepts, and where they literally have superheroes in the setting?
>>150628097>the worst thing that happened to this franchise is it being given any sort of plot or character beyond "grab the rings, smash the robots".
>>150628131>NTALol.
>>150628265see the evidence here- satam archiefag thinking his shitty show did this
>>150628004>large portions of it can be effectively skippedAh, I see, you have a skewed idea of what the show is like because you decides to skip most of it.
>>150628023No. I have a better idea. Name a member of the straw hats that has died.I'll let you say Going Marie if you really want, just because that was handled phenomenally, but you should be able to offer more than that over the course of 1000 episodes if the series had real stakes.
>>150628318I have that view because there's multiple arcs I watched where I got part way through and realized "Fuck, this isn't going to amount to anything substantial, is it."
>>150628336The series does have stakes. Just because a character doesn't die doesn't mean they don't have stakes.
>>150627374>Haha that guy got turned into a toy, that's so silly and wacky! Now his little tin arms can't feel the warmth of his wife's body as she dies and he'll have to forcibly kidnap his terrified daughter to save her from the insurrectionist revolution because the curse erased him from the memories of everyone he loved. Haha, look at him, he's trying to cry but he can't. So goofy, just like Tom and Jerry!
>>150628370So did you continue on and realize you were wrong, or did you just skip ahead and miss everything?
>>150628336Easy, Brook
>>150628336Her name was Merry
>>150628058It's not a strawman, it's your entire argument. Invader Zim has dismemberment, gore and death. You have things like Gaz taking over an entire dimension on her own just to use it as a playground to torture her brother with. It exudes a cynical, borderline nihilistic theme that permeates every facet of the series. It's primarily about an empire deadset on bloodlust and conquest, and is horrifyingly efficient at it outside some fringe cases.So why isn't it taken seriously? Surely it has all it needs to be respected like le epic shonens. Anyone that doesn't share your deeply diseased mind can answer such a question.
>>150628585Because it's episodic. None of the stakes are real because they dont last between episodes.
>>150628164No, it’s more tolerable to me, because I READ it as a kid, and just like every single Grimm’s Brothers Fairy Tale or Orlando Furioso or Alice in Wonderland, it has far more value as something for anyone read than your furry mascot ip slop.That CS Lewis quote was about fairy tales, not about chillidog eating soulless hedgehogs
“SPEECH CHEESE!”
>>150628476The first three times I got burnt by it was because I continued through. After that I just started asking if it was worth it or not on account of how aggressively the flashes back anything actually important.
>>150628637>it has far more value as something for anyone read than your furry mascot ip slop.So if gold exists silver must be worthless, right?
>>150628548Her name is a pun.
>>150628683Sonic’s not Silver. Sonic is that one retard gawking in amazement at the purty colors on an led light
>>150628622I genuinely don't know what's worse, the implication that episodic shows are inherently unserious, or that Sonic isn't an inherently episodic franchise. Even SATAM was primarily episodic FFS.This is beyond desperate.
>>150628670If you dont like the show, stop watching. Dont skim through it then talk about it like you understand it like some kid phoning in a book report.
WHOAH SALLYCMON SALLYWHOAAAAHUBER KEEEWLDONT YOU CALL ME A FEEEWLIM 2KEWL4SKEWLGOTTAGO FEEEEEESTWHATS WRONG SALLY CANT HANDLE THE CHILLI CHEEEEESE?WHOAOAOAH2SLOWBRO
>>150616416our resident tripfag is one of those really annoying people who wont let go of western piggu fanfiction. let go of your disgusting chipmunk waifu!
>>150628718You're right, this is Silver.
>>150628691No, a pun would be if her name sounded like another word. Her name just is the actually word for Joyous and lively.
>>150627943Pell, as well, but that's such a meme answer it feels like cheating to bring it up
>>150623153Dude there's a whole era of Sonictubers complaining about the "meta era" and how Sonic was better during the "Sonic Dark Age". So yes there's plenty of people where the story or "dark/serious/edgy/mature" aspects appealed to the fan base. Why do you think Sonic Frontiers is so popular?
>>150625245youre taking your own interpretation and claiming it as the developers' intent.
>>150628969Pell was intentionally unbelievable at the time, but now in retrospect was an early clue as to how devil fruits work with how he was able to be empowered by the will of his people because the falcon is their guardian deity.
>>150629091Because since Twitter blew up during Covid the Sonic fandom became extremely dumbass insecure consoomers who zealousy insist everything that comes from their series is “peak” and screech and cry at any criticism whatsoever, for fear every other fandom is gonna laugh at them online. They insisted the same about that godawful Sonic/DC crossover and the reddit Alcin and the Chipmunks roadtrip movies.I sincerely doubt the average Sonicfan can remember a single thing from Frontiers other than Sage or Sonic going super saiyan 2.
>>150629180toxic positivity is a problem in the sonic fandom but the current up swing is a very real generation shift of fans and reaction against fat neckbeard satam archie classicfags dominating the fandom
>>150629293>satam archie classicfagsYou just listed three different portions of the fandom and acted like they're the same entity
>>150628868No, her name is a pun on メリーさんの羊, Mary's little traveling lamb, named after メリーさん the lamb themed butler.A triple pun if you include Merry-go-rounds, hence, the Going Merry
>>150628740I didn't say I don't like it, just that it really needs to be condensed.I enjoy the series, I just don't like how its paced and feel like too much of it is derivative and repetitive.
>>150629493theres a huge venn diagram of crossover
>>150611775>>150629180>Tailscel in a Moorefag threadWhoever wins, we lose.
>>150629161I've seen it said that Oda wanted Pell to die but an IRL bombing at the time had him change things. He let Merry die in the live action so I'm wondering if Pell won't survive again.The thing is, One Piece is my favorite anime/manga and I'll defend it to anyone that asks, but I will say that the Alabasta civil war having zero named causalities actively hurts its themes. Luffy and Vivi had that big moment in the desert where he literally punches the idea that people die, she can't save everyone, and she has to be willing to risk their lives too in order to save the country. I generally respect Oda's idea that he wants each arcs to end with a happy party and that's why he generally doesn't kill off characters, but this time it actively worked against such a pivotal scene..
>>150611775This again?
>>150630308>I just don't like how its pacedFrankly I feel that like 95% of the people that complain about the series being too bogged down wouldn't have that complaint if they read the manga instead.Same shit with DBZ
>>150613154>genderswap>the man is now a girl>the woman is now a gay man
>>150611810>>150611928>>150613083Probably would've been better if Sonic's body was drawn as a blue streak, just mangling swat bots left and right, instead of a blue buzzsaw with his face on it, that should've been left in AoStH where it's appropriately goofy.If you can't figure out a way to make an approachable character look unapproachable, then 'hide' them from the audience.
>>150611775Part of it is that Sonic fundamentally doesn't work with very serious or grim stories. Not because he's a silly little critter, but because he's basically a puckish little nature sprite in the form of a hedgehog with attitude. That's why comparisons to other serious anthro stories like TMNT are never fitting, because the nature of those creatures makes those stories a fit for them. Sonic, meanwhile, is supposed to be untethered and almost like a mythical little dude. He's like a cryptid that embodies freedom. He'll save the day and will be running past the horizon before the sun even has a chance to set on it. Dragging him down to the dirt, making him deal with "reality," or delving too deep into his character is completely at odds with his character.The other part is that whenever you people want "serious" Sonic stories, you always start describing shit that's unfiltered garbage regardless of being tied to Sonic or not, and people rip on that for that reason.
>>150629180>I sincerely doubt the average Sonicfan can remember a single thing from Frontiers other than Sage or Sonic going super saiyan 2.Apart from the Titans and Cyber Space? There's the heart-to-heart scenes, the moody Koco flashbacks, the archeological discussions about the ruins, fishing with Big, the little dance Sonic does with every Chaos Emerald he gets, the islands' themes changing depending on how many emeralds you have, those fucking skydiving and pinball minigames... It was a pretty good experience.
>>150628336>Name a member of the straw hats that has died.Brook
>>150629180Adding to >>150632793, the easter egg tha references Tangle, because it makes for drama between IDW and Archiefags, and the scene where Tails leans on the fourth wall and talks about how his characterization has been wildly inconsistent.
>>150632207Pretty much. Sonic should never be written like a real person. He’s more of an idea, a flat character arc, a paragon that teaches others to better themselves. All of the worst Sonic media (IDW, Prime, Lost World) fall into the pit of trying to have Sonic learn some lesson.
>>150615376Is that Joker???
>>150625121How many references to this comic do you think the crew of Zootopia 2 snuck in, and do you think the producers caught on and removed them in time?
>>150616470It was jarring and weird when Cerebus and Bone did it too, just not as jarring as Sonic. Sonic was a game about cartoon animals with the tone of Power Rangers that got turned into a semi-edgy cartoon, that got turned into a gag comic, which turned itself into an edgy comic almost overnight.
>>150628451Japanese people think it's normal to stick cartoon penguins in vietnam. They're incredibly autistic and should be treated as an outlier.
This comic is fucking cringe
>>150612827>>150612868Shadow 05 ends with Eggman going "Ooooooh can I have the Chaos emeralds?!" and Knuckles goofily chasing him. Everyone goes "Oh you!!" and laughs. All the supposedly Dark themes are treated in the most digestible way imaginable, and it even sanitizes Gerald Robitnik's legacy, the actual darkest character in the series, until Shadow 05 turned him into Dr Light that is. The most entry level shonen and cape comic has more adult storytelling and imagery. That game also refuses to let Shadow kill a human enemy (it goes out of its way to show they're alive and asking for help) in direct contrast to Jak 2 and 3, one of its main inspirations, those games are for 13 year olds and Shadow is one age range younger. People love to point out the guns but that shit was pure marketing smokes and mirrors, it's all in the game's marketing anyways because they're handled in the most throwaway, unrealistic and cartoony way imaginable, Batman TAS has much more realistic gun depictions and it still is a cartoon for all ages, and the way those games and any Saturday morning cartoon handle death scenes is very comparable as well. Also the main villain of the game is Goku's voice actor doing a Scooby Doo villain impression. He sounds like Frank fucking Welker and it is intentional because he is a ridiculous character.People of both sides of this debate really overestimate how "adult" Sonic is, even at its most mature. It's never been a big deal because the games are still kept child friendly and made for all ages.
>>150633513>he doesn't knowhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsMb_MaOYS4
>Silver says Eggman caused his bad future>Eggman is middle-aged, doesn't plan on having biological children, and probably doesn't expect his empire to outlast himIgnoring Metal Sonic's existence and drive, what are the chances the Black Arms came back and fucked the world over.Also, what about Silver's own future, the one that will pass after he's gone? Did it ever occur to him that things may go to hell anyway?
>>150612827There are a lot of Sonic fans who don't play the games or who act like they're stuck in 1994. I guess they just like it for the furry community. They're the ones who say that humans don't belong in Sonic.
>>150634969They do belong, but not as realistic humans. Eggman and professor Pickle are a good example of how should they look. Hey, do you think the TF2 mercs would look our of the ordinary in Sonic's world with their proportions?
>>150634991How realistic was Maria? She belongs.
>>150634991Normal proportions, but stylized.Minor thing, but had she lived, and in the theoretical scenario that Ivo's parents bit it, could she have been old enough to be his legal guardian?
>>150611775poor understanding of tone.
>>150634991>Hey, do you think the TF2 mercs would look our of the ordinary in Sonic's world with their proportions?They're in one of the racing games already so we know the answer is that they fit in relatively fine.
>>150616083>this fucko later gets executed via bomb suitcaseEven the tamest Battle Network has more violent and """dark""" shit than Sonic in it but it doesn't make it a super adult secret genius media, it still is a basic ass shonen romp with some terrorist and mafia intrigue in it mixed in with the scifi shonen-ness.
>>150634945>Eggman is middle-aged, doesn't plan on having biological childrenEggman Nega exists and is confirmed his decendant. So either he gets busy in the future or he already has children running around that he abandoned.
>>150634234Stfu
>>150628451The funny part is that the characters responsible for this will eventually be forgiven and everyone will forget about the horrible deeds they did, because muh power of love and friendship. Typical cliche shonen trash.
>>150635591yeah man remember when Goku became friends with Frieza and they both got off planet namek?
>>150632207Retard. The reason why Sonic works in dark stories is because he contrasts the darker world around him. That's the reason why Sonic Adventure 2 was so good. He's still kept as himself, despite all the grim stuff happening around him.
>>150635611He was literally redeemed in Dragon Ball Super.
>>150635656>cares about supertourist
>>150635660>missing the point
By the way. I'm still right about Digimon.
>>150635666not really since brining up super is like bringing up GT to make a point.
>>150635671The point remains, they have a hard time committing to anything, especially when they trivialize death.
>>150635729I don't think you've kept up with shonen manga since the 90s
>>150635611Not him but you're describing what happened with Piccolo Jr, Vegeta and both versions of Boo. Either through actual justified friendship and allyship (Tien, the androids and fat Boo) and resurrection (Piccolo Jr and Evil Boo). A big theme of Z is Goku learning compassion and trying to see the good in his opponents, and Frieza was treated as the big exception, doesn't matter that it took a huge piece of garbage like Super to break it, but it was broken eventually. Frieza is a popular guy that sells merchandise, so eventually, this was reverted, and Cell remains the only character that stayed dead and evil.Well, now I raise you: One Piece is a fucking ten times worse with this. Because Oda is a fucking spineless coward that can't kill a character to save his life, and the few times he's done it, people kept expecting it to be a fakeout. The clearest cut time it happened (pic related) is still a very divisive topic in the fandom. So, irredeemable pieces of shit villains like Spandam and Wapol were yuking it up with wacky cover adventures right after their arcs were done, and big dick popularity characters that were almost as evil like Crocodile, Enel, and specially the admirals, were absolved and seen as gray figures that deserve to stick around and grow the same way the main characters did. It would not surprise me if Doflaming eventually broke out of jail and pulled a Crocodile. Kuzan was recently absolved of his biggest crime when Oda pointlessly resurrected Saul, and people expect Akainu to be some sort of morally gray hero. Either way, death and evil have no consequence in DB and OP because death is trivial and pointless in both cases.
>>150635729>>150635747Holy shit read jojo instead
>>150635755Jojo could be just as bad lmao
>>150635777Like I said, read manga past the fucking 90s. Jojo hasn't pulled that shit in forever not counting part 7 when it was awesome
>>150635787I'm not talking about manga past the 90s, I'm talking about One Piece and Dragon Ball.
>>150635801dude we're talking shonen as a whole >>150635591
>>150635591>meanwhile, the people responsible:
>>150635747Well said. It really has become a problem.>>150635820>breaks out next episode and becomes a comedy relief side character who yucks it up with the good guyspsssh, nothing personnel, kid.
>>150635814That was in reference to One Piece, were this absolutely happens. I don't think it's going to happen but people have been speculating Doflamingo is gonna break out of Impel Down because there's a big precedent enough for it to occur.>>150635836Just so we're clear the fact you're just shitposting and don't know shit about One Piece doesn't mean I'm not right lmao.
>>150635855>Just so we're clear the fact you're just shitposting and don't know shit about One Piece doesn't mean I'm not right lmao.It's anime shit, so it's not like there's anything deeper to get.
>>150635645>dark stories>SA2loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
>>150636038>Little girl gets shot by the military>Government conspiracies>War crimesWhat is up with you people and just denying reality?
>>150636072Not him but I think there's some confusion and bad faith going on with this conversation. When you people say it's a "dark story" I think you just mean in comparison to like, earlier Sonic or Mario. You're not trying to mean it's the darkest shit ever because it isn't, it's still very much a kids' game. Am I right?
>>150636125Yes. And people still refuse to understand that.
How come people who say "Sonic was never good" only bring up Sonic 06 and Shadow the Hedgehog. Those games are 20 years old now and don't even have a digital release. Hell there have been Way worse games coming out that put those to to shame.
>>150636072how is that dark? In Super Mario Brothers 3 you literally murder Wendy Koopa, a child, with your bare hands.
>>150636226Do I even need to explain how retarded that comparison is?
>>150636072>Little girl gets shot by the military>Government conspiracies>War crimesPretty standard stuff for a kid's story before everything got nerfed. Not dark in the slightest.
>>150636249It's hard to argue against such immaculate logic.
>>150636212Egotaptor and Old Sonic Twitter.
Sonic as a character doesn't have to be taken seriously but a sonic story can work if there are stakes that can be taken seriously. SA2 is basically written like anime and it's the best plot a sonic game ever had because even though it's about saving the world from a death laser pointed at the earth and then a giant lizard tries to crash a space ship into the planet, nobody rolls their eyes or points out how ridiculous it is. Treat a threat like a threat but you don't have to get all philosophical about the nature of war and humanity using fucking sonic. Very few video game characters would benefit from that sort of writing.
>>150633030Yeah, he's Superman. He's allowed to have faults or bad days, but his overall vibe is positive and supportive. Getting into his internal monologue is almost always bad, because it denies the audience the ability to infer details or make assumptions, which is what gives him any depth at all. Having his pals cheerlead him is usually bad, too, because his role is as THEIR cheerleader.People who can't grasp characters and stories as basic as early Sonic stuff haven't engaged enough with media to be writers and either don't have enough life experience or learned piss-all from it.
>>150636515How about giving him actual depth instead of asking the audience to make up headcanon? That's what actually good writing is. Telling you the thought process of the character.
>>150636212>How come people who say "Sonic was never good" only bring up Sonic 06 and Shadow the HedgehogExcept they don't. It's always about the question of whether 1-3 was at odds with its own speed and how the aspect ratio/camera limited response time, and Sonic Adventure being a poor translation of what was good about those games to 3D, due to leaving behind most of the ways that momentum affected movement (not to mention other aspects like the slapdash overworld). Nobody ever brings up Sonic 06 when it's clearly an exceptionally bad game in its own right, and ShTH only really gets mocked for the silliness of its edginess, rather than the actual gameplay
>>150636546>How about giving him actual depth instead of asking the audience to make up headcanon? Defeats the purpose of the character.>That's what actually good writing is.Quantity is the soul of wit, too true.
>>150636624>Defeats the purpose of the character.To give him an actual character is to defeat the point of it? Sonic is shit and should remain shit for absolutely no reason? >Quantity is the soul of wit, too true.Giving a character actual depth is giving a character actual depth.
>>150636669>To give him an actual character is to defeat the point of it?He's static and simple in order to increase character malleability and inter-character chemistry.Adding clarity only adds detail, not necessarily depth. Giving the audience an exact answer to his internality removes any ambiguity, which in turn lessens their ability to engage with other characters. The audience can no longer discuss, for example, if Knuckles is justified in being upset at Sonic for ignoring him if they are treated to an internal monologue where Sonic is clueless that he just passed Knuckles by. It erodes any ability to interpret the work, making it flatter.Some details only serve to muddy focus or remove substance. If adding more context inherently made for better writing, every single piece of media would come with a lore primer and every single thought every character has would be spelled out. This post is a great example, by the way; you're going to pick out one or two sentences to take out of context and change the parameters of this argument, and it's much easier for you to do so with the amount of material I'm giving you. My argument becomes weaker than my previous one and yours will likely be stronger because the volume and specificity removes depth of meaning and gives you easier avenues for criticism. Just like what can happen to Sonic's writing when we have his internal thoughts broadcasted.
>>150632207>Part of it is that Sonic fundamentally doesn't work with very serious or grim stories.People who loudly cry, "X doesn't work as Y!" are revealing themselves as midwits who don't understand the power of good writing, possibly because they've never actually read anything good. Pretty much any concept can work if you write it well enough. You might as well be saying, "You can't do a serious story with Sonic the Hedgehog becaue he's BLUE! BLUE heroes can't work in a serious drama!!!">>150633030>Sonic should never be written like a real person. He’s more of an idea, a flat character arc, a paragon that teaches others to better themselves.And what part of this precludes such a character from being in a story with a more serious tone? You're basically describing characters like Judge Dredd, The Mariner from Waterworld, or Kowalski from Vanishing Point. All media with serious tones, and heroes who represent a singular idea moreso than being complete characters in and of themselves.One of the biggest themes Sonic represents is "moving forward no matter what". That's practically a perfect concept to embody the protagonist of a serious, gritty, post-apocalyptic drama. The key is getting a writer who is better than, you know, Ken Penders.
>>150636546Anon this isn’t about good faith writing or characterization critique it’s about winning the sonic thread
>>150636927>Couldn't respond to>>150636831>without giving up the game.>Responds to himself instead with buzzwords instead of substantial comment.Concession accepted.
>>150636911I dunno anon, you sound like a fag that doesn't actually put stock in caring about what other people are actually saying. I don't think there's a point in you pretending to join into a discussion if you're just gonna behave like this. It'd be equally as fruitful as you just arguing to yourself in a corner.
>>150636996Yeah, he's not gonna lay out any parameters for what he actually wants to discuss or stick to a single point. He's just going to jump around to whatever he thinks will get a response. Let it be.
I can take sonic seriously if the writing for his stories was good, but it almost never is when it’s actually trying to be serious. It explores complex themes in the most shallow way possible
>>150632207>>150633030Just realized Scrapnik Island is the only part of IDW that's worth a damn because it's about Sonic inspiring and saving someone who echoes a bunch of past characters that couldn't be saved. It's really optimistic and feel good in a way that feels right for Sonic. I hope they don't ever bring Mecha back, I know they'll ruin him, please please let him be you hacks.
>>150637165Yeah. It's why Metal Virus sucks, too. It's a bunch of the same shit happening on loop while the characters all act really melodramatic and negative in a way they don't in anything else. Their interactions are just tedious and annoying. Same story with less repetition and Sonic actually being brave in the face of the apocalypse would be a ton of fun.
>>150636831So much of this comment is just random noise nonsensical arguments. Sonic doesn’t have to stay static and vague for chemistry to work. Ambiguity isn’t depth. It’s just absence. Real depth comes from giving a character clear values, motivations, and flaws that can clash with others in interesting ways.Your Knuckles example actually proves the opposite of what you’re saying. If Sonic ignores him because he genuinely didn’t notice, that’s one shallow read. But if Sonic notices and decides Knuckles isn’t worth slowing down for, now there’s an actual conflict of perspective: is Sonic selfish? Is Knuckles overreacting? That’s richer, not flatter.And no, giving Sonic more definition doesn’t mean narrating every inner thought or handing out lore primers. It’s about selective clarity. Spider-Man isn’t ruined because we know he feels guilt, and Goku isn’t ruined because we know he fights for fun. Those traits enhance their dynamics with others. Sonic can be the same.Blankness doesn’t create more room for interpretation, it just leaves him hollow. Depth gives him stakes and makes his relationships matter.
>>150637323>Ambiguity isn’t depth. It’s just absence.Would Sherlock Holmes be a deeper character if we were privy to his internality?Yes or no.
>>150636581>ShTH only really gets mocked for the silliness of its edginess, rather than the actual gameplayThat coule easily be remedied. Shadow is a painfuly terrible game that expects you to play it a dozen times to see each and every one of its atrocious jungle gyms and mandatory combat sections straight out of Heroes but worse, Chaotix missions but worse, and marketable gimmicks out of Jak 2 and 3 but worse too. It's the absolute nadir of the Sonic games of the era, did Sonic 06 have something as abysmally bad as The Doom or Mad Matrix? All of this while being one of the ugliest Sonic games ever by the way. I guess you can just play the neutral path and have a fun 30 minutes but other than that, irredeemable garbage.
>>150637372Yes. Holmes is deeper because we sometimes see his internality. The whole reason Sherlock Holmes became iconic is that Doyle let us peek into his thinking just enough to show his brilliance, his arrogance, and his odd flashes of compassion. If ambiguity alone made characters “deep,” Holmes would be at his best when he’s just a total cipher, but he’s not. People love him because we get selective access to his mind, which makes his relationships with Watson and others richer, not flatter. The same logic applies to Sonic: glimpses of internality add layers, they don’t erase them.
>>150637372They’re right though, that doesn’t make the lack thereof into depth.
>>150637372Not him and dunno if relevant to the conversation but Sherlock Holmes is such an unbearable pompous faggot, he makes his internality privvy to everyone else. He was such a mary sue, he could basically read fucking minds. Even as a kid I remember reading that time he knows what Watson was going to say by the way he was holding a newspaper and I knew I hated his fucking guts, what an unbearable prick.
>>150637410>The whole reason Sherlock Holmes became iconic is that Doyle let us peek into his thinking just enoughBy which you mean "almost never."Because Watson is the PoV in almost every fucking story.Because the stories would instantly fall apart, because they're BUILT on both Holmes being a step ahead and his actual thoughts being just beyond the readers' grasp, meaning they had to infer!Doyle HIMSELF was pissed he had to keep writing Holmes because he felt continuing to peel back would spoil the character! He needs a level of abstraction to function! You LITERALLY SAID>Ambiguity isn't depth. It's absence.While ALSO SAYING>People love him because we get selective access to his mind, which makes his relationships with Watson and others richer, not flatter. which is LITERALLY an example of incomplete information making him a richer character!Nobody but YOU said Sonic should be a complete enigma, you fucking retard.
>>150637444You're not wrong. Should have said Columbo. It's clear what he thinks, but the refusal to be concrete is what gives him depth.
>>150637505You’re confusing mystery design with character depth. Doyle hid Holmes’ deductions for suspense, not his personality, and it’s the glimpses into his obsessions, arrogance, and flaws that make him deep, not the fact that we’re kept guessing at the solution.
>>150637076This is the difference between measuring seriousness via superficial details like violent tragedy vs mature storytelling
>>150637538>No, the ambiguity does not add depth to the character.>Despite me literally saying the glimpses within the ambiguity is what makes it work and have depth.>Also I'm ignoring the Sonic part now even though that's the actual argument.You are such a disingenuous faggot, holy fucking shit.
>>150637318Metal Virus has always fucking sucked, and IDW felt like such a downgrade from Archie from those awkward as fuck introductory issues. Say what you will about Archie being a bad adaptation of the games, but it was going full ham on the wackiness with that tournament arc and with some real fun-looking art. Post rebbot had a charm that was rightly its, it built its own version of Sonic. IDW is such a diluded and corporatized junkpile on the other hand, part dopey OCs, part mandates to keep Sonic extremely on-model and on-guideline, it's a product that's made to please everyone but no one really likes.Pic related: the only good Metal Virus moment.
>>150637658No yeah that scene was pretty good.I always thought the arc could have used a good action setpiece that wasn't just characters fighting. Like, if instead of Eggman just going around in the Death Egg with a ham radio, if there was a big tower controlling the zombots and you had something like Tangle slingshotting the group into the thick of it and friends clear the way one by one and Sonic wrecks the tower and the zombies turn into like, statues because there's no more orders? That'd be fun. Real cathartic instead of endless "I'M SAAAAAAD." Gives the reader a good cliffhanger.
>>150637631You’re contradicting yourself. If the glimpses are what give Holmes depth, then it’s not the ambiguity doing the heavy lifting, it’s the selective clarity. Ambiguity just hides things; depth comes from what we actually see. And that’s the whole point with Sonic: giving him clear motives or values doesn’t erase interpretation, it creates more meaningful ground for it.
One of the biggest problems with SA2 was that Shadow dying to preserve the memory of Maria was well executed and heartfelt.Great scene, beautifully done. And then they fucking brought him back and gave him a gun and a motorcycle.Like, goddamn, dude, read the fucking room, no one fucking asked for this. That's the real reason people don't trust Sonic to be "taken seriously", the last time they tried that they kept trying to milk it.
>>150637756>These things work together>Which means only one of them mattersEither you're a dishonest little faggot or you have crippling autism, and I'm not sure which would be worse.
>>150638067Just because depth and ambiguity work together doesn’t mean only one matters. That’s a false dichotomy, not a real argument
>>150623284>>150623631>>150638358
He's lame
>>150634880>That game also refuses to let Shadow kill a human enemy (it goes out of its way to show they're alive and asking for help)They die in the Japanese version tho
>>150636515Superman is a deeper more serious character than Sonic and has plenty of dark moments that rivals Batman.
>>150639058Kys fag
>>150625079>>150625107>>150625128You guys mean self referential
>>150637076>>150637621This video explains good sonic storytellinghttps://youtu.be/ORJryigA0Ck?t=12298&si=QkVZ6hQriT8BPpb4
>>150635148Doesn't have to be a direct descendant, we don't know how many Robotniks are out there.Also, how do you think the Metal Virus saga would've gone if Eggman was both Patient Zero and the equivalent of Nemesis/Mr. X, a nigh indestructible roaring monster whose mind is consumed with hatred for Sonic? Assume he's basically Eggman without inhibitions plus the Metal Virus.
>>150639985Whatever
>>150611775Because those people, who have such reaction, are usually retards without the ability to imagine a situation, where some rules of our world are not applied, whereas some other rules (that don't work in our world) are.Basically it is Call of Duty/"live action" movies (as in "normal" movie, not japanese "live action", but ones where big real life faces' closeups are) audience of various ages. Those people can't even remotely imagine anything, that differs from real life too much, nor to connect to that - "it is not the way i know it is" is too hard. It does somewhat reminds of "this can't work like this, this flange is actually 0.5 millimeters smaller in diameter thus not providing enough support for the entire construction not to fold upon itself" subtype of autists except it applies to normal people - such subtype of autists usually have very clear and precise understanding of real life science, while normal retards have very precise set of "it should be like this because i said so" rules beaten up phychologically in them by variois authorities (parents, bad teachers, goverment propaganda, gang leaders), which is further enforced by other normal people of their group (like in that experiments with monkeys, ladder, banana and shower). Difference is that autists have their own rules (which are created entirely as the result of one's own experiments) while normal people have rules, enforced by others. And usually relatively high intelligence for both can help to circumvent those rules, but retards of both categories can't do this - as they often can't theoretize (see "How would you feel if you wouldn't have eaten breakfast this morning" experiment).tl;dr: retards can't into imagination.
>>150640425>post-coitus raped voice
>>150637818>That's the real reason people don't trust Sonic to be "taken seriously", the last time they tried that they kept trying to milk it.That's the real reason. "Serious Sonic" is generally distrusted because it has a bad track record. But OP never wants to hear this when I point it out.
>>150611870Because Ninja Turtles was never trying to be "serious" it was basically a parody of Frank Miller's comics and the appeal was them taking a ridiculous concept and playing it straight. That's why the new comics are gay as fuck, they try too hard to be serious and don't understand what makes TMNT fun.Sonic was never meant to be some serious thing either but he was clearly just a cartoon animal mascot meant to sell products to a specific demographic. Sonic having serious stories feels artificial like you can tell whoever wrote it was embarassed to be writing about a cartoon hedgehog and try to make it something it's not.
>>150640597Stfu fag
>>150640710No.
>>150615125>Taking yourself seriously isn't a desperate need to be matureYes it is because thats how someone turns into a pretentious faggot that sniffs their own farts every dayIt comes off as insecure like you don't have the confidence to just Bee Yourself and can't find that balance between seriousness and laid-back
>>150639721They still do the same pity animation and say "たすけてくれ". Why the fuck you make up shit anon. You're not twelve and this isn't the playground. The japanese also censored the killable civilians off Jak 2, of which Shadow is a ripoff of, so how did you expect them to leave it in their version of it for toddlers? They couldn't even handle his goatee!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E1NxbZuRD4
>>150611775It has more to do with the "Sega style" character designs, which look goofy being dramatic, especially in the Penders era. Sonic SatAM the TV show was more suited for drama/serious plotlines, but Archie/SEGA preferred the toonier game characters and it just felt off. I stopped reading the Archie comics because they started feeling like Chuck E Cheese angst fanfiction. "A funny looking cartoon bee's girlfriend died of a drug overdose from eating too much coney sauce at an evil theme park. he's crying in this panel but he looks like he's constipated. wtf?!"
>>150640871Taking yourself seriously doesn’t automatically mean you’re insecure or pretentious. It simply means you place value on what you’re doing or saying. An athlete who trains hard, a musician who rehearses diligently, or a writer who carefully crafts their work isn’t “sniffing their own farts”. They’re demonstrating respect for their craft. Confidence often comes from taking yourself seriously enough to commit, not from dismissing seriousness as weakness.>>150640676Sonic Adventure 2 was pretty serious and heartfelt and it's considered the best Sonic story.
>>150639762I think what that anon means to say is Superman is supposed to be a symbol for hope like Sonic, not that he's not a serious character. He might be underestimating an introspective Superman, specially because his origins are much more complex and layered than Sonic's, which are intentionally left vague in the games. But just like Batman and Sonic, Superman is a very multifaceted character that can thrive within many tones ranging from campy to dark and both at the same time, altough a tad darker than Sonic by virtue of being set in a much more realistic world. And the fact he's supposed to be "an ultimate good" means he's pitted against ultimate evils many times.t. been reading and loving Superman TAS comics and just started the Byrne run
>>150639762Cool. What I said was.>He's allowed to have faults or bad days, but his overall vibe is positive and supportive.
>>150643531What did he mean by this
>>150639058>Politics doesn't interest you. Why?Because it's probably not in your interest that I get into politics.Now leave me alone you hideous cretin, I'm trying to justify why I shouldn't feel guilt over masturbating to japanese corporate mascots.
>>150639058This is literally the stupidest argument possible, politics are full of upper middle class cunts who constantly whine and complain about banal changes.
Buff Jailbird Amy
>>150643854>>150643876>>150643893The only Sonic lesbians I like
>>150643898Is this version of Elise Buff Amy's prison bitch?
>>150644054Lmao hot and deserved
>>150611775How many times are you gonna make this thread you stupifd fucking autist?
The party is over. Time to banana split out of my club!
>>150636473Even adult stories have been hesitant to kill off kids.
>>150645312Just hollywood crap. And even then, stuff like Jaws or Star Wars does it every now and then.
