what did people see in the hush story that made it popular this shit ass
>>150632187Jim Lee artBasic story that has good soundbite style quotes
>>150632195speaking of jim lee why does he always get stuck with shit writers?
>>150632187Jim Lee + Promotion X Batman
>>150632187Jim Lee artpeople still liked Jeph Loeb at the time
Hush, Batman.hush.
>>150632187Lee art.
>>150632187The original Hush is essentially a solid comic blockbuster. Many a "why is this comic popular" thing can be explained as such. You have all the cliches there for the story.The latest Hush series has been ass. The art feels tired and stilted. The plot is beyond fucking cliche. It reminds me of that Batman Odyssey when Neal Adams lost the plot.
>>150632203Because he's not looking for arthouse stuff. He's looking for writers who'll play into what he wants to draw- cool pin ups that will sell for a couple thousand dollars on the after market. Have you seen an Alan Moore script? With all the details about mundane things and talking about shorts of things that aren't full body superhero pinups or closeups? Do you think Jim Lee wants to entertain that when he can make like 10 grand with Catwoman figures and faces all over a page without needing to specify any subtle details?
>>150632187It's an entry-tier Batman story that's accessible for casuals, drawn by one of the biggest stars in the industry, doing his first work at DC, and starring most of the popular Batman villains, all of the Batman spin-off heroes that actually matter, plus a guest appearance by Superman, plus the Batman/Catwoman shipper stuff.It's the comic book equivalent of a blockbuster action movie, and it's literally designed to be an evergreen Baby's First Batman Story for new readers. Complaining that the mystery sucked or that there are better Batman stories that aren't as known or aren't as popular is completely missing the point.
>>150632187im still trying to figure out why people praise the long halloween. i read it twice while i was bedridden once and it was just the most mediocre thing ive ever read. i dont use the word mediocre, loosely either.
>>150632339The art is good, it is an alright Two Face origin story, it is good to read post Year One.
>>150632349i know the art is good, i want to know why its praised for having good writing.
>>150632203Man I wish For Tomorrow was better. You want to talk pretentious dribble. Azzarello is a hack.
>>150632421>why its praised for having good writing.Is it? I mean specifically. Because I'll hear the usual IT'S EPIC or IT LOOKS COOL or whatever but rarely any focused praise on the writing details wise.
>>150632478ive honestly never heard of the long halloween being "sold" for its art, its always been for the story. weird how we have the complete opposite take on what weve informed about it
>>150632499My mistake, I thought we were still talking about Hush.
>>150632554oh we where but my comment was about being mislead about other batman comics.
>greatest hit of villains>mystery villain hook>Jim Lee art
>>150632499The art was also a big part back in the day, it looked unlike any other comic. I would almost say Sale made his bones before Loeb did; Loeb only truly got ironed in as a go-to big name guy by Hush and around the time the Marvel color books came out(which again were partly sold by Sale's style). These days zoomies wish Dan Mora drew it and the art is less a big deal.
>>150632607It seems silly now but back when when so much of the big two had a stricter HOUSE style anything that jumped out as different really mad a crash.
>>150632187I will never understand the use of ass as a pejorative. Without a qualifier or nasty objective you're not conveying how bad something is. Shit makes sense because it's waste and its nasty. Ass on the other hand? Ass just turns a lot of people on, just look at the Tushy Tuesday thread.
>>150632635adjective not objective, shit.People like Hush because the art is good and the idea of mummy anti-Batman with two pistols is cool. Is Hush's origin goofy? Yes it absolutely is. But it was the 2000s and it's certainly the kind of idea that would spawn from that era.
>>150632421>for having good writingBecause of the context. Look, the average superhero comic book is really fucking bad. And no, it isn't because of wokeness. Comic books were disposable, short creative turn around, low profit margin piece of entertainment. Many stories are bad or forgettable. The Long Halloween has an alright story, although the central mystery does shit the bed. For the average superhero comic, this is good writing. >>150632499>ive honestly never heard of the long halloween being "sold" for its artThe Tim Sale art has always been heavily praised. Honestly these generalised grand narratives irk me sometimes. "well people said it had good writing" "I never heard it sold on the art". Like some people on Reddit said stuff? Okay? Part of me feels like the problem is hype bubbles. Comics has a rec list mentality. Ask for Batman and people will tell you: Frank Miller Year One and TDKR, a bit further and you will get some people tell you Grant Morrison run/Arkham Asylum Story, The Long Halloween, stuff like that. Or blockbuster trash like Snyder or Hush and stories like Knightfall (because infamous events = good to people and these events are "important"). Those stories get reprinted and talked about and some people say it is the best ever. But hype is a (you) problem, it is people taking expectations too seriously and finding the expectations don't meet the reality. So you see someone on Reddit praise writing or whatever and take it too seriously and don't put it in its proper context. Overrated as a term that people use, usually has little to do with the actual piece of media and far more to do with overinflated hype bubbles. Expectation is the thief of joy, after all.
>>150632187jim lee, all the villains, mostly standalone, "jason?!" it seems less notable now but it had widespread appeal for a comic
>>150632689Getting into comics sucks sometimes because people don't put anything into context they just tell you this story is the best thing ever. And if it doesn't vibe with you then you are left feeling huh. People should ALWAYS tailor recommendations.
>>150632620Nah it's not silly, Tim Sale was a visionary by all means. Just lamenting that so many new fans seem to dislike his art.
>>150632724What do you expect, the same kinds of retards dislike Frank Miller and John Romita Jr.'s art too
>>150632635people like nice asses because their rare. Most ass is man ass or ugly old lady ass. and there's a very high likelihood they stink.
>>150632689>>150632720It feels like nobody really wants to just do a deep dive into thins anymore. They want to move fast, get the greatest hits and then call themselves a fan and fit in the fandom while the iron is hot.
>>150632195>Jim Lee artThis. The whole thing was just an excuse to have Jim Lee draw all the main Batman related characters (except the real Batgirl, fuck you Loeb).
>>150632836The "buy-in" for fandom is cheaper than ever. There are more people talking about comics on social media now than people buying them. For a lot of reasons. But personally, I don't care about that "fake fan" type stuff.The problem is the internet and the psychology driving it leads to extremes:>Thing is great or awful.>Thing is best thing ever or overrated.I like Jack Kirby's FF, but I see people being like "Jack Kirby's FF is the best thing ever" and then, in collected edition circles, people will go out and blind buy 4 FF omnibus editions based on this opinion. And then either they will say and repeat, best thing ever, or they will question, why is everyone saying it is the best thing ever? And there are biases here like wanting to fit in or sunk cost fallacy. Recommendations with purpose, context and discussion make for better fans. Some people don't like older comics or certain styles of art, that's all fine to me. I would just prefer creating sustainable fans who care about the medium.I just HATE this cycle of "why is thing liked/talked about" when then reasons are usually pretty simple and evident. It is like rather than actually talking about the damn comics we end up in this constant meta conversation with no detail or depth.
>>150632836>It feels like nobody really wants to just do a deep dive into thins anymore. They want to move fast, get the greatest hitsThe writers do the same shit. I was reading the brand new Hush story which kept having flashback panels alluding to The Killing Joke. And the new Hush story has Batman save the Joker from dying. Because you can't let him die or you'll be like him blah blah. At a certain point, it is reusing the greatest hits until they become meaningless. A copy of a copy of a copy until everything is used up.
>>150632902The concept of reliably good is just completely alien these. I don't like saying comics are disposable or lower entertainment but most of them aren't earth shattering. You can get a lot of fantastic runs. A lot of books you can trust every month to deliver. But outside key events or tent pole moments things are often, at their best, just good. You read a Superman comic or a F4 or whatever and you're entertained. You're invested and intrigued but not every issue is gonna blow your mind. So people will pick up a respected run expecting their world view to change and when it doesn't it's "overrated." They'll read a 40 issue omnibus in one sitting and complain it's repetitive or slow or "nothing happens." TV shows used to be like this too. You didn't binge watch Cheers to see how the romance ultimately resolved. You watched it weekly because you liked it. You grow attached to things over time. I don't like making this argument because in a lot of ways it can be read as dismissive but I think there's more value in reliable good than one pump of epic every few years. >and blind buy 4 FF omnibus editions The omnibus collectors are the worst. I do like the omnibus format but people just buy into the shelf appeal. You get too many people saying "I never read Spider-man what six 100 dollars books should I buy and then never open." And it's especially annoying because now they have this glam rock appeal that completely overshadows more readable formats like marvel epics and the dc finests.
>>150632968>The writers do the same shit.It's awful. Runs are so short these days, series get renumbered to quickly and every writer wants to "leave their mark" and rush to make their own Dark Phoenix saga a story that only really had meaning because it was the escalation of years of story and character writing. You didn't get this kind of shit every day. You get a long time of normal stories and then BAM!
>>150633079>I don't like saying comics are disposable or lower entertainmentI mean they largely were. And a lot of entertainment was like this. And that's okay! FOMO, fear of missing out, is pushed hard nowadays because they want fanatical consumers. But for every fanatical consumer you also get people burnt out and going back to comfort viewing or guilty pleasures. Reliable entertainment used to feel good but also, that monster of the week storyline used to be fun and if it wasn't, next time might be better! It was the fact that a show or piece of entertainment was capable of getting better. Nowadays everything has to matter so much that it pushes these expectations and issues. And usually of something is good it starts out good and just gets worse rather than build into something good. It's very all or nothing. Expectations are often key to enjoyment. The weird thing about comics is a lot of people aren't enjoying it simply because they are doing it wrong, like binging a show as an example you gave. It's adventures you tune into more than anything else.
>>150633207Part of the problem is that autism in the comic community is the loudest people. You get people endlessly bitching about wanting to read everything, in a medium that's the antithesis of that. You weren't supposed to read everything and you weren't expected to read everything.But since autism took over the narrative around comics, people have expectations to read everything, and have everything "matter" to continuity.You need all of the MOTW stories, to make the big stories feel bigger. You can't have every story be the big story.The 90s were the last of an era, when MOTW was still written and enjoyed. Even if the 90s was still trash, you still got the small stories after the multi-year event.
>>150632187It was fine as a one off thingSurprised the Arkham games never went in that direction honestly
>>150633079I like Omnis and think they're a better alternative to the Compendiums. I like Compendiums but books that thick will put strain on a paperback spine, hardcover binding allows for more collected issues and won't cause trouble on multiple rereads
>>150633278>Part of the problem is that autism in the comic community is the loudest peopleI think this is part of the problem of itself. So many people only feel like they're getting into any given hobby because it has a community. Things like comics, movies, anime, certain video games are all solo hobbies that we enjoy in parallel to each other. It's good that fans have found ways to get together and talk about what they like but it feels like the fandom itself has become the hobby.
>>150633290I've yet to break a compendium's back but I do worry. They honestly do feel decently built and I'm genuinely careful with my books but yeah it's a lot for a paperback. Finest and Epics are the perfect size. You get a lot of books to read and it's still nice and light.
>>150633280Wdym asylum and city have hush's structure
>>150633323Do they still make Finest? I know Marvel transitioned from Complete Collections to Modern Era Epic Collections
>>150633401Yeah, they got a whole bunch scheduled for next year already. The line has been great.
>>150633405Grell Green Arrow reprints are extremely exciting
>>150633428They also got Warlord coming out in Omnibus later this year. As for finests I'm really looking forward to grabbing that Jack Kirby Demon reprint. Do hope they announce more Teen Titans though. I keep going back and forth on if I should grab the omni or not.
>>150633467I can definitely imagine it as something Snyder would have picked up and went WOAH to.
>>150632455You mean drivel? But yeah, I felt much the same way after reading. Which is a shame, because I like the idea of Superman manipulating the Phantom Zone into an actual hospitable place to retreat to in case of emergency. It wants to deconstruct Superman's existence as an alien but gets lost in purple prose, religious metaphors and its self-assured profundity. The most it achieves is imply Lois loves Superman over Clark Kent. The dialogue's pretty clunky too, with characters taking another's words and forcing the conversation to flow into what needs to be said next. And Orr, the mercenary, is an action movie cliché who's more annoying than cool. I said this last time I discussed FT, but looking back on it, it really feels like a proto-Man of Steel
>>150633487It was also like a year long. So for an entire year it was pretentious gobbledygook, Superman sulking and it was just completely joyless. The art was great but it wasn't a fun read at all.
>>150633306For a lot of people, the value of a hobby is in the fans you get to share it with. There's nothing wrong with that as a guiding principal in how one enjoys their leisure, but for those who enjoy a given hobby for its own sake such fans can be hard to get along with for equally valid reasons.
>>150632187Absolutely nothing. What people actually have nostalgia for is the sequel story Hearth of Hush written by Paul Dini. I think a lot of people end up conflating the two resulting in the original Hush story getting unearned accolades.
>>150633640I've made a lot of friends through my hobbies so I get it but for the past while fandoms have become too.... singular. Like you go far enough and when you were kicking around internet forums each one sort of had its vibe. There were cliques but the fandom wasn't monolithic. Now because the internet basically devolved into nothing but reddit and wikis the fandom basically exists as one massive blob that plays nice to the cooperate overlords.
>>150633687That's why we're here.Spooktober threads are something I look forward to all year. As someone whose Halloween spirit is not really reciprocated in real life, I have to make the most of it and really engage with my fellow Halloween-ers online. This year will be different!Furthermore, I resolve to have a little bit of Halloween in me all year going forward!
>>150632421I only ever hear people shit on the writing.
>>150632187the Nortubel of Batman
>>150633765I don't know what that means.
>>150632724There are so many soulless people out there who hate anything that isn't the flattest fucking "realistic" style.
>>150632724I sometimes think he'll draw people a bit weird looking but then he'll turn around and BAM
>>150633487>>150633483Forgot pic, my bad>I can definitely imagine it as something Snyder would have picked up and went WOAH to.I don't doubt that.>>150633547It should've been shorter and focused more on the actual vanishing plot. But DC really wanted something to compliment Hush, I guess. Superman "loses" Lois and isolates himself and pontificates about his alienness and whether or not he can actually "be" human. Which, fine, he's allowed to feel that way sometimes. But it's jarring when you remember it's a fully-grown Clark Kent that's lived his whole life as a human. And it's also just wheel-spinning until we get to the actual crux of the story halfway in, and at that point it becomes Jesus vs. Satan but Kryptonian. It's a...weird package.
>>150633830>It should've been shorter and focused more on the actual vanishing plot.Yeah, maybe have it last four months and really dive into the mystery instead of trying to get theological. The idea that despite his powers Superman is still brought low by his emotions, especially when Lois is involved is fine but only so much. Even the Tom King book was less up it's own ass.
>>150632187HUSH! Anon. Don't ruin anyone's fun.
>>150632187lee's art
>>150632187Hush is the best introduction to anyone who wants to start reading batman comics. It goes all the famous rogues. It has a simple layout. It has great characterization for both Bruce and Selina and establishes their relationship very well. It also has, in my opinion, the best batman v Superman interaction. It manages to show both character's strengths and their mutual respect for each other while highlighting the main cause for conflict among best friends.
>>150632311>He's looking for writers who'll play into what he wants to draw- cool pin ups that will sell for a couple thousand dollars on the after market.This is the ideal artist mindset
>>150632339>>150632349Dark Victory is far better
>>150632311This looks sick. Why did we get stuck with mediocre colorists as the norm for American comics? Black and white is clearly better
>>150632689>For the average superhero comic, this is good writing.Good god no. It plagiarizes a ton of dialogue and scenes from the Godfather. The mystery is dumb, Batman not making any obvious investigation inquiries makes him look stupid and not a detective at all. The twist is incredibly stupid and requires a ton of willing suspension of disbelief. It's poor writing even by Batman standards. The story is carried entirely by the art.
>>150635348Only because of how the American industry is structured. If you can actually make a good living off initial payments and are able to support retirement from it, you can focus more on good storytelling on your pages.
>>150635275It's also not some off canon mini series. It takes place in the mainline comic and if someone likes Hush then they know to just keep reading.
>>150633775It's not even that anymore. These days zoomers all want stuff to be in Dan Mora's or Jorge Jiminez's style
>>150632187I like it because I despise Batman and he gets shitten on a few times there.
>>150636306I tried reading old school Vampirella stuff and couldn't handle it, american black and white looks sick but it melts my brain when trying to read.
>>150636807I see Dan Mora as a competent or even GOOD artist but there's just something about his style I don't like.
>>150633651Delusional. Nobody read that one.The truth is simply that the most popular comics are often the shittiest ones, and Hush is one of them.
>>150636857That's very bizarre. My only explanation is that it might be too visually dense. It seems like a minor thing, but the screentones manga uses tends to make it more visually digestable because there's less "dark" on the page.
>>150632187You had to be there
>>150632187Let's settle one for all:-really great art (yeah is great)>inb4 jim lee-full villain showcase-plot device-mandatory hush-mandatory jason todd (original one)-harley quinn gets too main books-2003, yes, it is a book from 2003 -story is quite basisc-also superman
>>150632187Two guns bandages and a trenchcoat are a great lookHush exists cause darkman is cool as fuck,they shouldve made hush more schizo too but they would get sued for ripping him off
>>150638551Unknown Soldier did it first and best.
>>150632327
>>150636506I genuinely think you misunderstood me or didn't read my post. The Long Halloween is good writing in the CONTEXT of what the average superhero comic book is like. I'm not saying it has good writing, I even criticised the mystery. But the average superhero comic book is so badly written that contextually it looks good. You're in denial of reality if you think that the average superhero comic is better written than The Long Halloween. What part of a discussion of context do you not understand? These conversations are always people blindly saying x is bad with very little discussion of anything else. It is why people get the impression that no one likes anything here. To be clear I'm not defending the book or being defensive, I just think these meta conversations are often retarded. If you think the average superhero book is better written then I don't know what to say to you.
>>150632187Jim Lee's art. That's it. DC fanboys were flipping out over it. This is the same reason Snyder's Batman got over. Capullo's art. That's it.
>>150638725>But the average superhero comic book is so badly written that contextually it looks goodThis is just being intentionally dismissive
>>150638725>The Long Halloween is good writing in the CONTEXT of what the average superhero comic book is like.It's not. It has below-average superhero comic book writing. It's a dumb book written by a dumb man that got elevated because of its art. Pretty much everyone agrees Superman/Batman, Hush, Ultimates 3, and Red Hulk are all very retarded books, but if you had Tim Sale drawing them, they'd be elevated the way TLH and the Color books are. The only thing that changes is the artist giving it an aura of sophistication that it doesn't actually have.
>>150639328>Pretty much everyone agrees Superman/BatmanI like this book.
>>150639350It's dumb fun, but it's retarded. Lex Luthor directly injecting kryptonite into his veins when even just wearing a kryptonite ring gave his old body cancer is one of the stupidest things he's written. Superman beating the crap out of Darkseid and throwing him into the Source Wall made Morrison so mad he came up with the Seven Soldiers->Final Crisis pitch on the spot.
>>150639223Do you not think it's dismissive that these conversations always go the same way?>Why do people like x, x is bad.Over and over. Explanations and context be damned. These conversations are bogged down in meta conversations about the work a lot of the time. If you don't want answers to the questions then what's the thread about.>>150639328Some of those books I'd class as blockbuster trash and some of them are plainly retarded, Ultimates 3 in particular. A lot of creators are pretty fucking inconsistent. Ultimately though, comics are writing and art. Both together. My point was simply contextually that the average superhero hero comic has atrocious writing. Of course good art can save meh writing. But I really don't think you get the point that superhero comics are often really badly written. It's not a below average because the average book is just that bad. I really don't get how you can think that it's below average when the stuff it was compared with was just awful.I mean this is my point: comic book writing is terrible. Stuff that gets recommended like TLH is then called overrated because people don't think it's good. But it's recommended because it's better than a lot of the trash. It's an overhyped creating unrealistic expectations problem.If we talk about the context of the book in the 90s with the speculator boom of image rip offs and absolute crap being produced. Or Batman being dominated by continuous events like Knightfall or No Man's Land then it stands out even further as a fresh back to basics approach book. Also it hit when the crash was happening. So yeah, I can criticise the story too and have done and I also think the art carries it tkl, I never said any different, the only point we agree on is you seem to think the average comic book has far more quality than I do and I just can't agree with that.
>>150639482>the only point we agree on is you seem to think the average*Disagree
>>150632187The art. A lot of villains in one story again. The technical return of Jason Todd though that was a retcon after the fact.
>>150632734Frank Miller lost his talent after 9/11 & a alleged stroke. Dude looks decrepit & he's not even 70 yet. John Romita JR has no excuse. His style was a poor modern take on Jack Kirby's blocky style & it just keeps getting lazier. Being stylized does not excuse critique.
>>150639482There are a ton of single issue Batman stories from the 70s-90s that are better written than The Long Halloween.
>>150639482>Do you not think it's dismissive that these conversations always go the same way?No. I think it's monotonous and that so many people keep needing to ask why things are good or for reading lists instead of understanding or trying stuff is depressing. But that's not really the same thing as throwing a blanket statement over the whole medium and downplaying it to show why a handful stand out.
>>150639554There are good issues yes. And there is a LOT of forgettable and outright bad stuff too. Heck before Year One, Batman had hit all time low sales. >>150639582I mean we're on the same page here. Because I've literally talked ITT about reading list mentality issues. I always encourage people's tastes irl in different ways because reading lists are dead ends, not pipelines into the medium.I'm not generalising the whole medium, I was saying average superhero comic, not all comics. I love the medium and comics. I simply provided some explanation and context is all.
>>150639482>I mean this is my point: comic book writing is terrible. Stuff that gets recommended like TLH is then called overrated because people don't think it's good. But it's recommended because it's better than a lot of the trash. It's an overhyped creating unrealistic expectations problem.NTA but I agree with this. I think comics get carried by art more often than not. Even though we're supposedly in a different era, where writers are selling events or whole lines, I still think artwork is what grabs a reader. I'm more liable to read a bad comic with great art, than a better story with shit art. Most of the examples of bad art with better writing are indie titles & the like. As you said, even there, the writing is good in comparison to the overall dreck being served up. It's in relation to other comics, & not that the writing is really awesome. But then, again, how else can you judge & suggest things right? They have to be weighed against what the medium they're in is offering. I can't say an album is better than a movie or something. The problem is 4 fold for comic writing:>the medium necessitates that writing & images be in real harmony & there isn't anyone gifted enough to do both. There are not many teams that have that sort of cohesion either. So there is an inherent disjointed nature between the visuals & the text>the history that comes with these characters is daunting. You have almost a 100 years of prior stories taken in every direction possible & you're mean to come in and "give your take". Trying not to step on prior shit is one thing, being original is another. Taking up a story someone else started telling can be a fun exercise, but not when the story has been going on for 100+ years>You have a limited space to tell the story. 20 pages, & maybe a year's worth of issues. So 240 pages? Images can really help convey ideas, but it's also tough to get your view in when the above is taken into consideration>fans hate change but want it too
>>150639554Nta, but I wish more anons would talk about some deep dive issues they liked and that spoke to them (or storytimed them) so we didn't just talk about the same few books. We're stuck in diminishing returns talking about the same few books people have read.
>>150639739I'm a big fan of Paul Pope's Heavy Liquid. My gf at the time recommended it to me. I had never heard of him and it was literally the first indie comic I ever read. The visuals got me right away. this heavy ink, heavy contrast, look that was sort of Miller-esque but very much its own thing. I liked Pope's dirty, cyberpunk-like NYC. He made the city a character which I always liked and that still speaks to me. The way the environment affects the people living there, the things they take as normal, the way they live, and how they react to things. It's something mainstream comics don't do enough of. "Gotham is a bad place." Yes well, what about it? It's one thing if a place is crimed filled and has drugs. It's another if you can't turn a corner without a mutant serial killer chasing you. How long would people live there? Why do they? What kind of people could put up with that etc? Pope's stories are about the setting and the people responding to that. His noir take on story telling isn't for everyone but I like his characters and setting so that makes up for any plot points I feel don't hit quite right.
>>150639879I'm gonna look it up. Nice post anon.
>>150639924No problem. He also did Batman 100 if you would like something a bit more mainstream from him.
>>150639662> too. Heck before Year One, Batman had hit all time low sales.The stories weren’t really bad though.
>>150638073Depends what you mean by “ there”If you were t reading much in the way of Batman comics, yes it was a good jumping pointIf you had been reading since the late 80s when Grant was on Batman and O’neil’s strong editorial era, then you’d think the art was great but the writing nothing special
>>150632187It's entry-level as fuck. I don't mean it as an insult, I mean it's that way by design.>briefs you on the history of Batman and his supporting cast while telling a new story>uses most of Batman's rogues gallery (the ones who matter anyway)>art that would definitely appeal to a first time comic readerIt was basically designed to succeed with the new readers, even if it probably won't impress you when you've read more Batman comic books.
>>150639662Sales don't necessarily reflect quality. Len Wein's editorial reign and Moench's run were fine comics overall, and O'Neil obviously agreed beacuse he eventually brought Moench back for another long run starting in the early 90s. The guy had a best-selling Moon Knight run before he came on to the Batbooks, there was just a massive pro-Marvel anti-DC bias at the time.
>>150638762Nah, Snyder's book got over because it was a reboot that came out at a time where Batman was still relatively culturally relevant. People who've never read comics before think the writing is good, and don't realize it's just a tired rehash of the last 20 years of Batman books.
>>150638762>got overI know what kind of a man you are
>>150637387Yeah it may be something like that because with manga I can read just fine.
>>150632848>all the main Batman related characters (except the real Batgirl, fuck you Loeb).What are you even talking about? She was stuck as Oracle back then, but she's in there.
>>150632455I unironically wish that Jim Lee's Superman story had just been the Superman equivalent of Hush, an entry-tier story that was largely just an excuse for Lee to draw all the important Superman characters and most of his villains.
>>150640712Oracle is better than Babs Batgirl anyway
>>150640734Yeah, get him to do 10-12 issues of Superman facing off a different foe in short one to two issue stories that also explore his supporting cast that could have been fun. Add some through plot if you need to.
>>150640752For the Hush-specific situation of "Jim Lee is going to draw her", this is one time when there's no debate to be had that she's better as Batgirl than as Oracle.
>>150640712>>150640948Jim Lee did draw Barbara Gordon Batgirl in the water color flashback pages. It was Cass he refused to draw because "she looks like a shoe.">>150640734For Tomorrow may have been a snoozefest, but doing Hush: Superman Edition would have been so creatively bankrupt.
>>150632848Cass will never, ever be the real Batgirl.
>>150641920Barbara's most iconic storyline is getting crippled.
>>150632203Because Jim draws the pictures and the writer puts words in the bubbles. It's hard to get a story out of a series of cool poses and brooding.
>>150632203A better question would be why no good to great writers ever work with Lee. Especially considering how much pull he has.
>>150642308I still find it crazy he became president of DC.
>>150642308Multiversity: Mastermen was great.
>>150642114and no one except waifufags can name a single Cass story.
>>150642469>Pretending Babs fags aren't the OG waifufags
The way Jeph Loeb writes Batman's internal monologue in this is what every Batman writer should copy. Hush was and to this day is so successful because that monologue in this story makes Batman the most interesting that he has ever been in the actual comics - letting the reader actually think along with Batman in EXACTLY the way Batman thinks is a fantastic trick, and I don't understand why other writers don't do it.
>>150642390I think it says a lot about DC and why it's always in the state it's in. I don't know Jim personally, but handing over DC to him couldn't have been that much better of an idea than handing Image to McFarlane.
>>150642469The Puckett and Horrocks runs were great.Barbara Gordon also has a few good stories - the "Batgirl was a mistake" Puckett issues O'Neil commissioned in the 90s, Year One, The Bat and the Cat. No particularly good runs though.
>>150642688Jim Lee deciding he didn't want to run a comic company anymore and selling WildStorm to DC in the 90s led them to being consistently #1 in market share for the first time in decades even if it was just a couple of years.
>>150642820Causation. Correlation. Lee hasn't done anything to streamline their multiverse. Create a pipeline to multimedia efforts. Consistently improve sales. Onboard new readers. Take advantage of the superhero movie bubble to attract new readers or opportunities. He must be just a really nice corp guy who doesn't rock the boat.
>>150643182>Take advantage of the superhero movie bubble to attract new readers or opportunities.This is the part that really astounds me. Super heroes have never been as popular with the casuals and yet neither marvel nor dc have done anything to cash in on this. I remember being a kid and just seeing a cartoon used to be enough to drive up sales.
>>150644785I would have offered a free pack of comics with ticket purchases. 1-3 issues of whatever title the movie is. You go see Avengers? Here are the last 3 issues. Or here are two issues from a big event going on. No special edition tie in comics. Those always suck. No collectibles either because then the sweats get involved. For Marvel i would have given out 1 week passes to Marvel Unlimited, or limited passes that let you read the last ten issues of whatever title the movie you just watched was. Just shit to get people in the door. But then I want to save the medium not kill it.
>>150645297Yeah, I don't pretend to know a lot about marketing but it feels like this kind of tie in should be easy. Hand out freebies. Sell comics in the lobby. Do literally anything beyond shitty popcorn containers.
Batman has retarded fans that will eat all his slop
>>150642775Nah.
>>150632187Does it have an animated adaptation?
>>150633207I think the problem is tha media consumption changed in recent years.Back then, most action stuff still worked on the premise that most episodes were 'filler' and only a few big events (often times at the beginnings and ends of seaons) actually moved any kind of plot along (if there even was an overarching plot).These days, every episode has to tie to some kind of overarching villain plot or mystery.I blame 2 things for this:1. Netflix and other such video on demand services creating a 'binge' mentality.2. Anime/manga's increasing popularity
>>150648813It does. I haven't heard if it was good or not though.
Every hero needs at least one boss rush story.
>>150649190>2. Anime/manga's increasing popularityEven manga and anime used to be a lot more episodic and long form. In a lot of ways they're in the same boat western comics and animation are. You don't really see the long running single plot episodes the way you used to.
>>150649390I suppose so, I'm just saying that a lot of people now seem to want EVERYTHING to be structured like a shonen anime.
>>150649234It is? Huh, I didn't know there were actually. Where could I find it?
