why do so many people like hobgoblin more than green goblin in TAS
>>150705114He was introduced first.
>>150705114Because Green Goblin looks awful, isn't fun despite his randomness, and has joke 'Halloween Costume' abilities. If The Green Goblin weren't Norman Osbourne then there wouldn't be any reason to care about the Green Goblin at all. Hobgoblin is at least a professional who plans, and obscures the most stupid looking parts of the Green Goblin getup.
>>150705114Hobgoblin is the better character. In both TAS and in comics, it's only blind nostalgia that keeps GG relevant at all. His most defining story was killing Gwen and then dieing by his own hand... both of which have been nuked by modern comics. GG is just a TEMU Lex Luther dressing up and acting like Joker, while Hobgoblin is an actual character.
>shows up out of nowhere>manipulates the fuck out of both Kingpin and Norman Osborn and almost wins in the end, temporarily taking over Kingpin's crime empire for himself. Would've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for Spider-Man invervention>genuinely one of the most entertaining villain performances in any of the 90s superhero cartoons>dat 90s Joker voice>cooler designI was actually rooting for him when I was a kid.
>>150705114What does Green Goblin even do in TAS? He was barely in it before being "killed" and the most memorable thing I recall him doing was The Night Mary Jane Watson Died. Except he never actually killed Mary Jane, so he actually doesn't do that much.In comparison, Hobgoblin shows up in Season 1, is voiced by Mark Hamill, has a pretty solid first outing, and even manages to get in a few good moments here and there later on. Granted, the showrunners apparently hated Hobgoblin, so he is notably less competent later on.
>>150705114He was mostly Spider-Man's Joker in the show and more interesting since the show mage Norman out to be the unnecessary knockoff. I never understood why the comics Hobgoblin never got a boost from this. They were still making Macendale out to be a pathetic loser at the time, and reintroduced Norman again like 2 years later.
>>150705418>>150705460everyone loves raimi or ditko green goblin tho
>>150705418Funny.I feel the same way about Hobgoblin.
>>150705939>I never understood why the comics Hobgoblin never got a boost from this.The opposite happened. Green Goblin got a massive boost from the Raimi movies and Marvel kept Norman around as the main villain of the setting throughout the 00s. Hobgoblin never got much from the cartoon due to everyone at Marvel seemingly hating him at that time. Hobby was the loser shit villain back in the early 90s, and they were trying to hype up the new cool edgy one Demogoblin who was right off Maximum Carnage in 93. I would actually wonder how Hobgoblin got into the cartoon and not Demogoblin considering the timing.
>>150705418This. Green goblin fucking sucks. The only good version of green goblin is the raimi version and that's because Dafoe understood the assignment. Hes an awful character and really only used because of obligation to a history of Spidermans character that's mot very interesting or compelling. You can easily remove everything about Norman Harry and Gwen Stacey and have a cleaner character overall.
>>150707293They hated hobgoblin because he wasn't green goblin and demogoblin was EXTREME EDGE and a level of mysticism that isn't snd never was Spiderman.
Anyone else like Green Goblin when he's trapped in limbo? I feel like it weirdly humanized him when he's teaching Harry to be a better Goblin. I do like his first episode a lot but I think Greenie would have benefitted from more episodes to flesh him out before Turning Point. If he had come earlier in the show I think it would've been better executed.
>>150707293Leeds was the good hobgoblin, Macendale failed at everything he tried
Kid me:Hood cooler than night cap thing
>>150705114He did shit
>>150707293Demogoblin in a kid's show where the superhero can't punch?
>>150705114the TAS Really underwrites GG and Overwrites Hob Goblin, to the point that in the end GG Is a weak rip off of Hobgoblin caused by Norman Losing it.
>>150708809Hobgoblin is adequately written. He's the arch nemesis for a five year period. He should be given that treatment. It's Green Goblin who is underwritten because he doesn't stay long enough. He has 1 episode and then he beats Hobgoblin and then he sends MJ away and then he's done.
>>150708623Why didn't they make Leeds the Hobgoblin in this? Macendale in this show is barely anything like the comic incarnation. The only thing in common he has with him is that he's a terrorist for hire, but even then Hobgoblin in TAS evolves past that and has Kingsley/Leeds ambitions. Why not go with Leeds as the Hobgoblin and Macendale as Jack O Lantern? Come to think of it, Ned Leeds first appearance comes right after Hobgoblin is effectively written out. Semper wanted to do a plot (probably based on the Hobgoblin Lives revelation) for season 6 where Ned Leeds is set up as The Rose.
>>150705114He's much more prominent. I grew up with TAS so I was shocked that not only was Green Goblin the original he was meant to be Spiderman's arch not Doc Oc
>>150709327Doc Ock was definitely Spideys archnemesis when TAS was airingNorman had been dead for 20 years
>>150708623Comic Macendale shares background with Moon Knight (ex-Marine, ex-CIA turned mercenary), they even crossed paths before and for all the talk of him being a loser, Macendale had a decent showing against MK, holding his own in a fight and escaping.Comic Macendale should've stuck being Moon Knight villain the way Kingpin stuck being Daredevil's.
>>150707293Hobgoblin got in early due to someone fucking up and ordering Hobgoblin toys. So he had to be in Season 1 for the toyline.And HG didn't get a boost because Venom overshadowed him in Season 1 and GG was shown as his superior when they fought.
>>150705114I do not like how many Goblin-relates villains there are in Spider-Man's rouges.
>>150709327>>150709994Until the live action Spiderman, I'd never even realised that Green Goblin was even supposed to be on Spidermans's 'A' list of villainy, let alone supposed to act as his Arch-nemesis. Doctor Octopus had always seemed to be the Villain carrying that role.
>>150705114Hobgoblin could have been a bigger mainstay villain had editorial fucked him over>Roger Stern wanted him to be Roderick Kingsley and give him a twin brother to explain why he and the Hobgoblin are in the same room together>He leaves and Tom DeFalco takes over>He thinks the Kingsley idea is stupid and wants to make it Ned Leeds>For some reason DeFalco’s editor had beef with him and kills off Ned Leeds before he’s revealed as Hobgoblin>DeFalco’s editor tells Peter David to make Foreigner the real Hobgoblin but he tells him that’s fucking stupid and Leeds is the only character who made sense>They just reveal posthumously that it was Needs the whole time and just move on with a new guy as the Hobgoblin
>>150710581*NOT fucked him over* fuck I need to spell check
>>150708543Kaine took him out. In the comics, Doctor Octopus has always been one of Spider-Man’s biggest classic villains. But Venom ended up becoming the emotional fan favorite arch enemy, even as he entered anti-hero territory. Doc Ock is kind of the backup arch enemy. He only takes that spot when bigger hitters aren't around to fill it.
>>150707315Here's the (you) for the bait.
>>150711429I know it's hard for you to accept but some people actually read the comics and know better than you.
>>150711561If that’s your take, your media literacy caught a one-way bus to irrelevance and never looked back.
>>150711588Norman reaching up and snatching JJ as Hobgoblin swoops in is a fun little character moment.
>>150708623I liked Leeds competent goblin when he first appeared. He had a decent origin and his appearances were pretty good. I liked the idea of someone competent discovering Norman's stash and doing something better with it. Macendale was just odd because he was consistently portrayed as a loser, and the books kept on telling the reader he was a loser. I don't know why the half demon thing happened at all, except maybe because Todd MacFarlane was really into that kind of shit. Demon Hobgoblin sucked, Demogoblin also sucked. He should have stayed Jack-O-Lantern and kept up that rivalry with Leeds. Kingsley doesn't make sense at all, and even then he still sucks as a villain.
>>150705114Until they fucked up his unmasking and the shameless shilling of Hobgoblin 2, Hobgoblin was actually a better villain than Norman in the comics.
>>150709994>>150710367Pre Raimi, I always considered the Sinister Six to be the A list villains. The Syndicate to be the B tier villains. And everyone else are the extra guys with varying levels of popularity.
>>150710351That shit got especially bad in the late 00s when they kept making up different Green Goblins of every type. Things were nice and simple when it was Norman, Harry occasionally cosplaying as a villain, and Hobgoblin sometimes showing up to cause trouble.
>>150712166>Kingsley doesn't make sense at allI miss when Kingsley was written to talk like a stereotypical gay man. RuPaul is unironically my head cannon voice for Hobgoblin.
>>150710581Leeds as Hobgoblin and Kingsley as the Rose were the better idea all along. Fisk Jr didn't really need a supervillain identity. But Leeds also hits that same former friend of Peter's thing they had going on with Harry. Who was always terrible as a goblin.
>>150712205The recent Disney series made it more confusing by making Harry into Hobgoblin, with a vaguely Hobgoblin themed Iron Man suit.
>>150712263>making Harry into HobgoblinI think Stan Lee did that first.
>>150712286think about what you just said
>>150712183I wouldn't go that far. Hobgoblin and Green Goblin serve different roles so they obviously appeal to different kinds of fans so I can see the appeal but I would still go with the emotional wrecking ball.
>>150712327>In "The Amazing Spider-Man" newspaper strip by Stan Lee and Larry Lieber, Harry as the Hobgoblin has repeatedly attacked Spider-Man, seeking vengeance for Norman Osborn's death. After trying to kill both Spider-Man and Black Widow after, under hypnotic influence of psychiatrist "Dr. Stone" (actually spy-assassin Dimitri Gregorin who has killed friends of the Black Widow in the past), Harry, seeing Spider-Man's heroism, realizes that Spider-Man is a hero, his father was a murderer, and vows to never assume the Hobgoblin identity again.
>>150707293what >>150708745 said but also add the fact they couldn't even use the terms devil, demon or the like. Fuck sakes they were scared of having vampire or using the word "blood" Demogoblin would be a totally different thing in both name and origin if they even tried to adapt him. But you are right he was a successful property character that suffered the fate most of them did when the new teams too over in the mid 90s and started to clean house of anything that wasn't old guard. It's a big reasons why everything took a dive at Marvel in story telling was the teams wanted to have stories they wanted as kids which in turn made the higher ups get aggressive with sales.
>>150712220>>150712166How do you explain Leeds being evil though if he is the only Hobgoblin?
Consider the following:
Who makes the most sense and would be the best fit for Hobgoblin?>Roderick Kingsley>Ned Leeds>Richard Fisk
>>150712878Kingsley
>>150712878Kingsley as the Rose would have slapped.
>>150705114His design is cooler and he's voiced by Mark Hamill while Green Goblin's voice was an acquired taste at best.
>>150713489Neil Ross did the best he could with what he was given I feel like the performance suffered due to the writing, Neil's manic voice works best with out right crazy fuckers, not the 4D chess playing revenge angle that GG was in the Animated Series. Neil's evil sophisticated voice would have made a fanatic Kingsley Hobgoblin.
Green Goblin will always be better than Hobgoblin
>>150712793Very cool look, but Donna Troy levels of fucked up continuity
>>150712878I think it would be fun if Fisk wanted to rebel against his father's way of doing things by being a goofy costumed criminal instead of an organized mafia guy in a suit. Maybe he could pretend Hobgoblin was his personal hitman, while actually moonlighting as him and doing dirty work himself for fun. Kingsley fits the rose way too well.
Bring back the sassy evil fashion designer side of Kingsley.
>>150705114cool > less cool
Macendale deserved better.Fuck Kingsley.
>>150715753The Hobgoblin definitely wins in terms of costume and voice performance, but as a character, I lean toward Green Goblin.
>>150713697In the comics maybe.
>>150713681>>150714961I think it's more creative if the sassy fashion designer IS the hobgoblin. And as for voices, I think Mark Hamill actually suits the younger 80s Kingsley. Ned Leeds should be Jeff Bennett doing The Creeper. And Macendale can be Skelator.
>>150712793He did the evil Halloween themed gimmick way better than Norman.
>>150712793They were just too similar. It almost makes more sense for Jack O Lantern to be the guy who found a stash of Norman's stuff and made a knockoff persona from it. I'm not sure killing Leeds and taking his stuff was that much of a level up for Macendale, it's pretty much the exact same gear. Also Macendale won the fight so why would he need the dead guy's gadgets when his works better?
>>150705114>why do so many people like hobgoblin more than green goblin in TASbecause it's the easiest way to spot a tourist fag who will claim Green Goblin was only ever good in the Raimi films
>>150719040Back to formula with you.
>>150719040Only time I ever really liked Green Goblin was that very short period of time in the early 90s when Harry was having a relapse and going out at night in a costume and causing trouble. That made for a fun story where Peter and Harry both lived in the same building, both snuk out at night to go do costume stuff. Also it was a better version of the whole Peter doesn't want to punch one of his friends thing that was done with the Lizard. I wish that went on for a little longer before Harry was killed off. But the Harry story was wedged in between a Venom and Carnage story so he really seemed like a whole lot less of a threat at the time.
Since we're going all out here with hot takes, I think post-resurrection Norman fucking sucks.Original Norman was a scumbag, but he had some humanity to him like him snapping out of Goblin persona when he learns that Harry OD'd.Post-resurrection, it becomes a contest of "let's out-edgy the Joker" with writers themselves not sure what his personality is with some like Stern trying to humanize him and others just making him out a pure evil cartoon character, so he's barely consistent. I'm sure that contributes to "Norman is not a good character" posts here, for what it's worth Hobgoblin/Kingsley is a more consistent character.And I'm not even gonna touch upon Mephisto cancer, the less is said about it - the better. Let's just all pretend it doesn't exist.
>>150719187Norman coming back to life is like The Simpsons entering the zombie era. Every appearance further diminishes the original product. Every time they trot Norman out for another scheme, another brawl, another sinister plot that goes nowhere it just erodes the good will of the fans.It's been great for Hobgoblin fans because Kingsley returned to comics as well but is used more sparingly, so his erosion is less dramatic... Miles fight aside. Every hack writer just desperately wants to tell "the definitive Green Goblin story," so Hobgoblin gets to stay relatively untouched. Green Goblin = The SimpsonsHobgoblin = Futurama
>>150719187>for what it's worth Hobgoblin/Kingsley is a more consistent character.I really don't understand how anyone can argue this, he's never developed past being a one-note smug evil villain. Say what you like about Norman, say what you like about the other Hobgoblins like Macendale and Urich, at least they were all more developed characters who had more depth, personality and motivation. Even in stories where those motivations were stupid, at least writers tried to humanize them. Kingsley is a villain for 80s kids whose favorite cartoon villain was Dr Claw over Skeletor, Megatron, etc.
>>150719404I feel this way about Kraven, honestly.Even DeMatteis' followup stories, while better than modern Spider-slop, feel like something he milks for money compared to TLH which felt something he actually wanted to write.
>>150719485Agreed, it's just never a winning gamble to resurrect a character when their defining story was their death. If you ask a fan "what was this characters best story?" and the response is their death then just leave it be. You can't top it.
>>150719187By 2003 Marvel tryied to make him into their own Lex Luthor type super smart rich guy who was five steps ahead of every hero and in charge of parts of the government etc. That shit was over the top.
>>150719187I kind of liked how any other goblin character that showed up was someone trying to imitate or live up to Norman's legacy. A legacy villain is an interesting take that is not used much.
>>150719187>I think post-resurrection Norman fucking sucks.I like Norman Osborn before his resurrection but most of my favorite stories with him, however, are from after his death. It might be a case of "Seinfeld is unfunny," where the original impact doesn't resonate with me. Whenever people say his death was the peak of his character, I wonder what they see that I don't. The only parts that stand out to me are the description of his death, which is just a single line, and MJ choosing to stay after Peter vents his grief at her.
>>150712878>Roderick Kingsleythat one
>art by inky-axolotl Ramos's addition of the side flaps to the green goblin's hat is a clear improvement, and I really wish more designs would incorporate the feature.
>>150712948>>150713440>>150714330>>1507215892 for Kingsley as Hobgoblin, and 2 for Fisk as Hobgoblin.I know some people like Ned being Hobgoblin, so what is your rationale for him being Hobgoblin from the beginning? How was evil?
>>150719040Hes been around for nearly a century and you cant name three even DECENT green goblin stories. You want the truth? The best thing he ever did asca character was fucking die. He only eirjs as the rver present voice in Harry Osborne eae or a shadow over Peter Parkers life.Feels like the only people that like him are the same oldster losers who stand behind OMD.
Seems my superiority caused some controversy.
>>150722130>Trick of the Light>Return of The Goblin/A Death in the Family>Down Among the Dead Men/Venomous/The Last Stand That’s when the conversation shifts to whether it’s a decent Green Goblin tale or a solid Norman Osborn story.
>>150722348So random shit you pulled from Google. Cool
>>150722669Nah. They're stories I genuinely enjoyed, even I'm not autistic enough to log the titles.
>>150705114I can't remember a single GB focused episode
>>150723301GB?
>>150721788The occasional inclusion of fingerless demi gauntlet gloves and stylized tabard also look cool.
