While they talk a lot in Silver Age comics I think it comes down to having a tighter understanding of how to tell a short story.

>>151002677
this. the people in the industry now were influenced by people that were trying to make it all into prestige TV so story telling became more decompressed.
where once a movie sufficed now a tv series takes its place and so where once a single issue sufficed now a story arc spanning several issues takes its place.

We had superstar iniciative in AC and both superman and supergirl has many oneshot stories while using the triangle era narrative of focusing on the supporting cast and villains till they attack.

>>151002677
it all comes down to the silver age being entirely based around "new product now" and they had an assembly line to get dinner napkin sketch to finished product as fast as possible

>>151002671
By having shitloads of exposition and handwaving anything that wasn't absolutely mandatory for the story to be comprehensible. The point was not careful craftsmanship or intricate plots or even detail beyond the most rudimentary. TV does the same thing with episodic storytelling. What is necessary happens in the episode, and everything not required for it to work is set aside.

>>151002671
Endless captions that narrate the plot

Silver age comics rush through the story, do massive asspulls, rely ridiculously on heavy handed narration and exposition. Not everything has to be six issues long but it’s absurd to think single issue stories are inherently better and would improve comics when in truth they make then far more disposable

>>151002671
Things only people that don't understand pacing say. The best way is to be diverse, have a 2 issue story arc, a 5 issue story arc, a single issue, a 3 issue arc, another single.

>>151003043
there aren't any of those though. now its all long story arcs that lead into events to sell trades

>>151002671
I agree with the six issues problem. But I'm reading old crap that is mostly bad. A lot of it could be packed into 20 pages, but it was mostly as bad or even worse than the six issues. People have a weird nostalgia for things they never experienced. Yes, we have libraries, used bookstores, and the internet to read old stuff. I grew up reading comic books that were 5-8 years older than me. But it's not the same as being there when those series were released in the “old days.” What days? You weren't there. The six-issue format has been around since the late 90s, which was over 30 years ago. I'm not telling you to accept garbage, but better arguments as to why.

>>151003031
Best take in this thread

Writers wrote for comics and not Netflix pitches

>>151002671

Information density. Cramming a story into a short page count is a skill that has to be learned.

The bongs that came from 2000AD magazine were the kings of it, cause in that one they only had EIGHT pages to work with. The American standard of 22 pages must have felt like a real treat to them.

>>151003080
>People have a weird nostalgia for things they never experienced.

Recognizing that the old thing is superior is not nostalgia.
Also I think you greatly underestimate the average age of the people on this board. This is the retirement home of 4chan.

>>151003055
The point is that going from one extreme to the other isn't good.

>>151003113
>old thing is superior
But it's not.

>>151003113
I know that /co/mics is made up of an aging user base. But most people here are no older than 35. That leaves a few Facebook and forum dwellers. This is also a place for cartoon viewers, and many of them are younger. I'm not totally against old things, it's just that this argument comes across as if old things were superior without really explaining why. An anon already explained how bad much of the silver age storytelling was with long-winded explanations and giant walls of text that don't add up to anything.

>>151002671
If you actually go back and read something like, for example, John Byrn's fantastic four run, there is a lot of expository captions, no decompression, a lot of big exposition dumps in dialogue. I really like those comics, but they don't really hold up to modern sensibilities.

I think the balance is to make sure that each issue has something really interesting happen, a really good splash page or soemthing really ostentacious, if there are big moments per book you feel a little less annoyed at the pacing.

>>151003138
in this case it is.

>>151003174
It's not.

>>151003169
Writers have to churn out these stories at a quick pace. And if you notice, it's a very small group that does this. I think it would be better to open up a WSJ-type format with different writers and artists. High-profile artists and writers would be seniors and would have apprentice artists and writers under their wing. They would be like editors. That would save the BIG 2.

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>>151003043
I miss the late 80s/early 90 style of telling stories that were one or two issues but they have side stories for a page that was building up for something bigger, like how the introduction of Venom was teased in prior issues of Amazing Spider man in the late 200 issues to show up more clearly in 298 and 299 but while whole other story was going on with those forshadowings. Then Venom showed up in 300, got defeated and in 301 it's Silver Sable with a daisy chain of Fox, Prowler and others making most of the issues their own thing, but they come together. Another example is the Spider Slayer Saga where the stories were building up to a big showdown but were self contained as well.

It was fun having these interconnected short stories rather than 6+ issue arc that just drones on and never feels like anything is happening for 4 issues.

>>151002671
It depends, a multi-part story being compressed down to a single issue doesn't mean that it would be better
A story like the Apocalypse Solution could be compressed down to 1-2 issues, but you'd have to cut out so much stuff that makes the arc good

>>151002677
They kinda had to. The Silver Age "single issue" thing wasn't simply a matter of choice but a matter of literally being the rule. It wasn't simply "tell single issue stories", the Comics code specifically outlined the rule "by the end of the issue, the villain must face justice for their actions" which inherently meant single issue stories. This was actually one of the first rules we saw Spider-Man toying with a la the "If This Be My Destiny" arc. Villains would show up and go down but this overarching mastermind in the background allowed for an overarching plot thread.

>>151002671
They didn't always do single-issue stories even in the early 1960s. Galactus is several issues, the Avengers are a continuous run of stories that refer back to one another right from the start.

The problem isn't necessarily page count or dialogue but cost.

Consider a 21-page issue. You could cram 9 panels into every page, but if you go back to 1940s style dialogue taking up most of those panels, you won't get read, you'll get skipped. A good rule of thumb is no more than 25 words per bubble/box, and no more than 3 bubbles/boxes per panel unless it's a third-page or bigger.

So if you're averaging 5 panels per page your dialogue count is going to cap out at 7800 words per issue for an extremely wordy comic book that people are still going to complain about, and you probably shouldn't ever exceed half that. Then you have the old show, don't tell maxim: which is good advice, but also means cutting dialogue and needs the writers to have a good idea of how fast the artists work. It's no good complaining to your artist if you're asking them to draw 15 people in detail every panel for 21 pages, or if you've given them 30 original characters to design or old characters to update for a single issue or a short run. The artist is only getting so much money per page and can't be blamed for not putting in free overtime.

Then you have to marry the text to the art as produced, which is an editing problem of its own. If there's no time to redo pages then you can't and you have to live with it the Kirby method. Ultimately, a lot of what "got done" got done because both writers and artists knew they had longer runs ahead and worked on that basis, even if they weren't planning stories very far ahead. A title might not last 6 months today despite featuring major characters, whereas in 1967 you could expect a few years and potentially just start telling the story with the same characters in another title if you were cancelled. That isn't possible now.

>>151003459
>>151002671
To give one example: the X-Men. They were so unpopular that they only survived the 1960s because Stan Lee kept cramming them into other titles and reprinted the shit out of their original run until they were soft-rebooted to add Storm, Wolverine, Colossus etc. and grew some fans.

In the meantime the stories continued in other forms. Beast changed from his human form to his furry form in Amazing Adventures, years before the X-Men were popular, while actively trying to cure his mutation (perhaps a not so subtle dig at the unpopular mutant concept). This was many, many issues of rapid development calling back to previous stories (and featuring other X-Men, including Angel who actively took part in this storyline).

So it's not really true to say that they got more done with less in the silver age or bronze age. It's really down to comics selling more at the time and that giving writers and artists more leeway to screw up or explore new tangents.

>We need single issue stories!
>They do some single issue stories and no one cares.
To be clear, I am not just saying, "they're wrong" but people have these singular ideas they think will just fix things, and even when they were done or tried it doesn't do much. Comics have serious entrenched industry issues, from creative turn around to tropes to the comic shop model but all those exist in a specific culture and context that developed over time and can't just be easily changed. But for me the average book is just kind bland in a specific way combined with the cultural baggage of comics just not being cool.

The simple problem for me is that people don't play to the strengths of either model well. A one and done story still needs points, character moments and a story with turns. An overarching plot needs growth that actually matters.

>>151002677
How to tell a story period
Modern writing is universally shit

>>151003618
So was silver age writing.

>>151003232
This is kind of like what Simone is doing in Uncanny, where there are some panels/pages that are just dedicated to subplots that she sets up or continues, and it works because Uncanny is on a 18 issues/year schedule

Problem just is is that the payoffs aren't that great and the main plot with the prison has gone to a point where it should just be wrapped up

>>151003169
>modern sensibilities
Is there a bigger buzzword than this? I'm sorry that smartphones and tiktok turned you retarded but that doesn't mean everything should cater to you.

>>151003917
The pre-Frank Miller storytelling in comics is antiquated and difficult to read. These days most people just go directly to his inspiration and read manga.

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We must RETVRN to comics having mucho texto

>>151002671
>euro style
Every time I see a single issue series having to be made directly for trade due to poor sales, they treat it as a BAD thing and must only be done as a last resort

>>151003649
Well that just makes Modern writing look worse

>>151002677
>>151002671
A narrator helps reducing the number of things you have to show and they also had more panels. Reading a Ditko Spiderman issue made me think that I read 2 issues instead

I'm gonna be honest
I don't think a direct to trade route isn't the solution you want
Modern superhero comics with exception like Absolute Batman or The Last Ronin don't perform as well as you'd hope in the BookScan market
I guarantee if they went this direction most series' would still last two trades tops and we'd have less coming out with wider gaps of time between releases
Something like Dog Man comes out annually (or multiple times a year which I strongly believe is one of the reasons for its success) because Dav's a simple writer with a simple artstyle

>>151004767
DC tried direct to trade with Earth One, didn't take.

>>151004767
Those didn't do well in the current market.
Obviously the solution is more than just "make trade->sell a lot".

>>151004767
*don't think a direct to trade is the solution

>>151004825
>Obviously the solution is more than just "make trade->sell a lot".
Yeah but the bookscan market for graphic novels is more brutal than people think
A lot of series' last two to three books and that's mainly because those series' were contracted under that bare minimum rather than any indication of the first book selling well (and even then they don't come out annually, correct me if I'm wrong but even eurocomics have years long delays even if the art makes up for it)
Especially since again, we're talking about Americans here
As outdated as the monthly direct market system is, the raw benefit is that it's faster for getting new story material printed out allowing for conversation and reception to be received faster.
And that kind of speaks volumes because monthly (and sometimes even longer) gaps aren't even good period

>>151002671
Not that every issue needs to be done in one but you should at least get the equivalent entertainment value of a 30 minute tv show (not that it takes you 30 minutes to read it)
so a 3 parter would be the equivalent of of a 90 minute movie

>>151003031
This. Fucking retards don't understand the problem. Going back to the single issue storytelling would kill comics.

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>>151004393
Mantlo's purple prose is godly

>>151004728
It doesn't.

>>151005381
Well with people like you defending it, it makes modern comics look even worse than Silver Age

>>151005407
Nah.

>>151002671
6 issue stories are a feature not a bug.
Pay for one conversation.
Pay again.
Pay for half of an action scene.
Pay twice.

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>>151002671
Does he want it to be like what Ultimates is doing where the main plot is a one-shot but still a part of an ongoing plot
Because eventually you'll reach a point where you have to catch everything up

>>151004393
I think this writing style compliments Rom and the influences that fed into his book. I can kinda hear the dialogue and sound effects playing out like a radio show, ala War of the Worlds.

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The main problem here is that everyone is trying to be Prestige TV that they forgot how to pace shit. People keep trying to make Kraven's Last Hunt, but they only have the material for two issues, so they pad it out with anything but action.

Ain't no shame in a single issue.

>>151005744
I accept your concession again

>>151002671
Read them and find out: via narration-boxes skipping over a lot of dialogue.

>>151006134
Don't talk like a faggy loser.

>>151006104
Speaking of Kraven's Last Hunt, there's parts in JMD's Spectacular Spider-Man that people think are decompressed, but reading them now they feel way better paced than a lot of comics from the 00s to now.

>>151006191
Don't talk like you? Sound advice.

>>151006222
>no u
pathetic

>>151006903
I can see why you don't want people to talk like you, must be your self-loathing

>>151003080
I'm currently reading a lot of silver age comics and they're fucking excellent. Some adjustment is required but almost everything Kirby had done is solid gold.

>>151004393
this page is the best mix between 1950-1960 and 1990 dialog panels.

>>151002677
>having a tighter understanding of how to tell a short story
/topic
bad artists who lack even the most basic fundamentals and principles. wasting 8 pages in something that can be told in 1 if not half a page.

but then again blame editors they are the ones that enable and want this shit. thinking it will hook in readers, its not like this shit Kills readership&sales if by issue 2 85% dont like where the story is going and or etc thus drop shit. Till the comic picks back up again. They make up these missed sales by shoving said comic into an event not learning their lession.


Honestly its just bad teachers/mentors and nepobaby editors/staff hiring/giving work to terrible artists&writers who have no mentor and were taught legit the wrong way in literally everything.


Its the whole system thats completely fucked the jingu tower is at its limit you cant move shit around anymore the next move and that shit is falling over.

The only modern comic I was keeping up with, and in fact actually PAYING MONEY for, was Ultimate Spider-Man. I cancelled my subscription back in the summer because I was sick of spending £5 for an issue I'd read through in less than 5 minutes for a fraction of a story. That's not good value. And now they're ending the title anyway, so go figure.

>>151007036
You're boring.

>>151003616
Unfortunately silver bullet hot takes get way more engagement than "this is part of larger problems that can't be solved instantly with one gimmick." I don't want to blame people too much though since it's very alluring to hope you could solve big problems with one little trick.

>>151002671
The 6 part stories are only done because trades are the only thing that sells

>>151002671
Comic book storytelling didn't get good until the late '60s/early '70s. And by good I mean refining the Marvel style because DC's Silver Age books are mostly garbage.

>>151007573
>£
Don't worry man
Your money was worthless anyways

>>151008262
Marvel's are worse.

>>151008376
Spider-Man and Fantastic Four were killer, easily earned their place as Marvel's two best selling books.

>>151008347
Yeah thanks for the reminder, cheers la

>>151002671
it doesnt matter what you change when you refuse to stop using 3rd world 3d model tracers for 99% of your "art" and diversity pyschos to use chatgtp to "write" the trash and push your social engineering/political propaganda. if you are unwilling to do that, trying to change anything wont work because you have no fucking talent doing any work. the 90s had guys that were fucking 18 years old drawing comics. the image guys were all in their 20s basically. jim lee and jeph loeb are old as dirt and somehow their shitty sequel that is already delayed with 3 years of lead in time are considered big draws. the only art people get excited for are people that are 40+ years old. they arent bringing anything new to the table. theres nothing to be excited about. just a bunch of fucking washed up talent phoning it in for a paycheck and tracers. no one wants to draw trannies and gays eating in a diner every fucking issue. so take your shit tracers like mora and batman faggot artist and so on. thats all youll get willing to work on this trash.

>>151004121
Of course, these manga have five times the page count and 50 issues a year.
Which is where cape comics simply can't keep up.
Of course you can have an issue that's just part of a confrontation, if that's a weekly release.
The whole thing is still moving at a nice pace per month with 4.5 chapters.
And then there's the penalty where you don't have to keep setting up everything anew every six chapters.
You're just continuing an original story that doesn't have to make nods to a dozen other things that are also happening.
With characters that are experiencing consequences that you know will not mean absolutely nothing next year.

And that, capes just can't do or be.

>>151009155
>shit tracers like mora
meds

>>151009155
>complains about third-world artists while typing like an ESL
Lmao, can't make this shit up

>>151002730
>We had superstar iniciative in AC
Each of those ere like 4 or 5 issues each.
>both superman and supergirl has many oneshot stories while using the triangle era narrative of focusing on the supporting cast and villains till they attack.
I can barely understand your ESL babble but none of the current ongoings have one shot issues other than north’s FF which is sad because that sucks so much it gives the one shots a bad name.

>>151005797
Maybe he just wants things back to the Jim Shooter school of thought, like most of /co/ does.

>>151009567
As a non-native English speaker, I am frankly insulted.
This incoherent ball of unexamined emotional reflexes and parroted reactionary notions is unfortunately just as likely an all-American (barely) monolingual failson as anything.

>>151005797
Ultimates is so fucking bad.

>>151003080
The difference is that back then, if one comic was a stinker, oh well just wait for the next one and if it's a big name like Batman or Spider-Man then you probably have two or three different comics in the same month. Over time, you're not going to remember the bad comics (unless they're extremely bad) so your nostalgia will let you remember just the good ones. Whereas now if one comic is a stinker, it could indicate that the entire arc is a stinker and suddenly that's half a year gone.
Same thing for cartoons, and it's why episodic cartoons are usually remembered better than ones with running arcs, because peoples' nostalgia focuses on all the good episodes.

>>151002758
True. Recall Stan Lee's bombastic advertising in each new issue. The comic was the product. Now, comics serve as adaptation bait and benchwarmers for characters.
>>151002772
Also true. Silver Age stories weren't super complex. Not a bad thing exactly, but it's very limiting.
>>151009688
>north’s FF which is sad because that sucks so much it gives the one shots a bad name.
That's the kind of shit we'd get now, at best.

>>151002671
Basic characters and story.

>>151002671
silver age fucking sucks.

Thought bubbles

>>151007800
>>151011471

You're stlil a loser and you're boring

As one of the few people who still read comics, the average comic really isn't as bad as people say and I've been reading comics for decades. I read plenty of meh stuff in the past too. I feel like everyone with advice on how to fix comics just seems to have nostalgia for books they liked when they were young until they fell out of them. Plenty of books before the decompression had overarching plots and were wildly successful. Claremont's X-Men had long drawn out plots and stuff and that was massive. In fact many of the biggest books of the late 80s had overarching plots and stuff and people weren't complaining. I think a bunch of these Twitter comments are often just objectively false.

Kids in the 80s would pick up context as they went along. There were occasionally reprints but no proper collected editions. Comics now often have summary pages, easy jumping on points and other things and yet the weird perception is they are hard to get into. It's a weird perception that both true and false. And it's false in some retarded ways. A new creative team is an easy jump on point, you have wikis, you have readily available collected editions and still people moan.

>>151009438
>Of course you can have an issue that's just part of a confrontation, if that's a weekly release.
That's something even some of the modern big manga are losing sight of. People wouldn't have complained half as hard about the DB Super manga if it were weekly or biweekly but taking a full month to put out those issues, multiple years to still not be finished with an arc, if fucking painful if you're actually following along. They want to have these decompressed issues where the plot doesn't move in favor of developing the characters and relationships with paced out panels/dialogue but i don't care to have 12 pages of melodrama for an entire month even if it weren't written by overgrown children in metropolitan adult bodies.

>>151012174
As someone else who still reads comics, the average comic is bad. Most comics ever made have been bad. Good comics have always been an exception.

>>151002677
They were also way less concerned with artistic panel layout. It would be rare for them to spend more than a single panel on a big emotional reaction with no text. Now, Big 2 comics will spend and entire page on a character going through even emotion in a row without saying anything, followed by a full page shot of the character sitting the staring at the ground followed by multiple pages of establishing shots and exposition re-explaining all the emotions the character has been feeling since 'the incident'

>>151003031
Something in between would be best. A story like Days of Future Past was only two issues if I recall correctly, and it didn't really suffer from any of that.

>>151004767
>>151005158
One thing we're missing is anthology books. People forget but all of the big titles didn't start off as their own series, they were a small bit in an anthology title that had all new, all original stories each issue until one title got popular enough to get mass fan demand at which point it would become a recurring segment and if it got popular enough then it finally gets to spin off into a solo title and hold down its own book. And if it couldn't do that it would either get cancelled or moved back to a segment in an anthology book depending on the numbers. Even supposed "big names" like Doctor Strange and Thor were just recurring segments in an anthology for quite a while before they finally got their own titles.

Solo titles should model themselves on the Ditko Spider-Man run:
> 22 pages per comic
> 9 panels per page
> With narration boxes
> Supporting cast and setting designed to organically move the plot forward/introduce the plot.
> Single issue stories, ever 15 issues or so you can do one story that lasts 2-3 issues.
> No forced political ideology or censorship, the writer and artist can write/depict whatever they want within the confines of the law of the U.S.A. Of it sells, it sells and if it doesn't it gets cancelled. No artificial boosting or cancellation.

>>151013171
Now how do you think that'd fare in actual sales with today's market?

>>151013171
>>151013236
That would finish off the industry. I support this.

>>151013236
I think it would do very well. The argument against it is:
> "But I don't wanna!"

>>151013171
>One thing we're missing is anthology books

DC has been doing anthology titles for ages and they don’t do jackshit to create interest because people don’t want to buy anthologies for new characters.

>>151005158
You say that as if comics aren't already a dead medium.

>>151007431
Same pattern behind it outside of comics too

>>151004393
We must return to Shooter-era storytelling
We should reverse engineer all scripts in that era and see what makes them kino

>>151014479
It's dying, not dead.

>>151015576
Yuck, no thanks.

>>151004393
That second panel is just awful man

>>151016456
In the modern era those first 2 panels would be an entire page

>>151016485
And still look better.

>>151016502
You're wrong again

>>151016971
I don't think so.

>>151012864
Well yeah sure. But the way people complain about comics has always been weird because a lot of the criticisms now are bullshit or stuff that has existed for a long time

>>151016485
Maybe
But that doesn't make the panel look better though
>Here's a bunch of exposition while I'm blasting your face
Like it's just as stupid as when characters are in the air and saying more than 4-5 words

>>151002671
This is an awful idea

>>151015576
Why? He actually spelled out a good portion of the rules.
Starting with
>Start making GOOD comics

The issue with comics is simply that creatives don't understand their audience. Modern comics are a diminishing audience of Wednesday warriors into X character. These people eventually burn out and stop buying a book. Changing overarching plots to singular stories won't magically fix anything. Making good comics wouldn't magically overcome people sentenced perceptions on comics either. There is simply too much to change.

>>151002671
by writing novels with some illustrations

>>151018346
Yes.

>>151002671
Every page had mucho texto

>>151004393
>writing with some art
No.

>>151002671
Single issue storytelling is a terrible idea, because we are not in the age of any random person buying a physical comic issue anymore. Its also far too late for that to make a comeback considering the digital age we are in now.
I think the idea of making a single 120-180 page release instead of 6 issues is the more appealing one, IMO.

Floppies are weird. As a format they are now too fucking expensive and yet they do still sell enough that the industry cannot get rid of them as they are still a cornerstone of their business.

But think about the process of buying a floppy. It isn't, walk in a shops and pick one off a shelf. Like sure, shops have shelves and buy books for shelves BUT most of the model is reading solicits and ordering in advance. The format is a tight ordering system. Now if it was all subscription based without the middle man it would probably be more sustainable. But it's like, you can't change the foundations and keep the business running at the same time.

Like this anon says: >>151021212
Just doing bigger stories and printing them would probably fix a load of issues but you can't just do that because transitioning your business over to that would be suicide.

It's a quagmire of problems.

>>151002671
Idk

>>151013170
Eh, it's not very good. I remember there was a boring ass fight in the second issue. That's something they need to fix fast. If you're gonna keep fights short, at least make them amazing.

>>151024379
>classic story with endless callbacks
>not very good

>>151024485
Classic comic with endless callbacks. Correct, it's not very good.

>>151002671
Have you read Claremont and frank Miller comics? Walls and walls and walls of text. Tell not show was their MO. Manga and it's cinematic storytelling is killing old classic comics for a reason.

decompression shouldn't be the norm. multipart stories are fine but you need to be able to do one offs as well if youre writing an ongoing.

>Pic
maybe read better manga I mean comics?

>Pic
maybe read better mangas? I mean comics

>>151024708
You never read comics or manga and it shows, you Youtube tourist

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>>151025005
I used to read this shit when I was younger, now I only read Manga. Look at this shit, walls and walls of text every page. Everytime i try to read Daredevil born again it's the same. Modern tom king comics are the same. Dunno why you assume im a "YouTube tourist " whatever the fuck that means. Try rereading the "classic" dark phoenix saga run, it's a nightmare. Text text text walls every single page.

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>>151025005
Also fight scenes in marvel and DC capeshit are embarrassing trash compared to even C-tier manga action scenes. The separation of writer and artist in most western comics lead to every writer cramming too much text in to page, as they're trying to go over the artist and don't want to be outshone. It's not always that way but Tom king and many modern writers are like that. It's unreadable.

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>>151025005
Look at this, it's embarrassing, and this guy wins western comics industry awards.
What is the last comic you read, chump?

>>151025109
>>151025154
>>151025183
I don't believe your story at all, chump. Nice try.

>>151025213
What exactly am I wrong about and what do you think I'm "trying"?

>>151025230
Assuming your made-up story is real, you are too dumb to understand that simply reading a lot of manga doesn't make you an expert on how storytelling should work. It's like you're a kid who just discovered a new toy and trying to brag about it endlessly to people rather than someone who understands manga or comics. At best you're a surface-level midwit or trying too hard to pretend to be one. Your skill at judging fight scenes between manga and comics is shockingly piss-poor.

>>151025510
You sound like a midwit. I read classic western comics until I was 10 then switched primarily to Manga at age 11. That was 20 years ago. I told you my anecdotal opinions and experiences and you responded like a midwit pseud. Stop projecting your insecurities on to me dumbdumb.

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>Only 1 story per issue
Amateurs

>>151025109
>>151025183
Trash.
>>151025154
Kino. If you can't tell the difference between Born Again and a Tom King comic, you're a bona fide moron.

>>151003031
There's good single issues stories told post silver age though. This is a dumb post that is thinking in extremes. At most the decompressed padded out 6 issue stories should be turned into 2-3 issues. Save 6 issues for something that actually has enough meat to be stretched out that long.

>>151025662
Born Again is kino, easily my favorite western comic- but it's so outdated. Those massive blocks of text in tiny font crammed in every panel feel like a chore to get through. The story and writing are kino but compared to cinematic storytelling in modern manga it simply doesn't hold up. The fights don't either. Every comic from the 80s-today are like this. Walls and walls of text crammed in to every page as the writer has to get their shit in in order to justify themselves, and trying to use their comic to get Hollywood screenwriter jobs. Often in story less is more and western capeshit comic writers forgot this fact.

Miller's Sin City is a completely different story, those comics have a near perfect balance of text and art rarely seen in western capeshit comics.

>>151002671
>Be me.
>Get hired at (x) company as a writer.
>They assign me to (x) book! Awesome!
>Discover I make roughly $70 per page.
>Sure, it’s only $1,200 a month, after taxes, but I’m in.
>Goto my editor, pitch them my ideas, new characters, etc.
>Immediately shuts me down, asks me who the fuck I think I am, and more.
>Hands me a ChatGPT prompt they made; it’s a retread of a previous (x) story but now some characters are LGBTQ+ vocal and also very liberal.
>Also discover if I make anything new, like a character, (x) owns everything about it and won’t pay a royalty on anything, despite what they say.
>Realize my job is to just ChatGPT this prompt into something longer and do so.

I think there are bigger issues than “Muh shit story is long”

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>>151025716
I read and love manga, but I love my comics as well. Mazzucchelli was great.
I particularly liked this sequence.

>>151026049
This is the most kino action scene in the comic. Frank Miller of course studied and was influenced by manga and worked on layouts of this comic with mazuchulli, hence why it is comparable to manga when it wants to be.

>>151003031
The comics industry needs to be starved and beaten until its mean and hungry again and the parts of it that can't survive that deserve the death that comes.
To this single issue mandates are a process which can make this happen.

>>151004393
Modern comics are just walls of text but with characters doing mundane shit like walking and eating

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>>151002671
the charm of 90s beast was that he was saying too much in a word bubble in the middle of an action sequence that it would be ridiculous to actually believe he could get it all out in an instant. in this way he was "meta" like deadpool.

you can show a lot with the correct depiction of art. in fact, not only is it important to get good writers, but it's also important to get good writers who help the artist convey things without words

>>151021212
>I think the idea of making a single 120-180 page release instead of 6 issues is the more appealing one, IMO.

Oh my fucking God. You already have trades. You’re suggesting something that already exist!!!

>>151026311
nta, but trades are after the fact and not every run is in trade format

>>151025697
>There’s good silver age stories though!

And a lot of shitty ones.

>>151021446
>But think about the process of buying a floppy
I do and for everyone who doesn't live in a major metropoliton it requires driving 15+ minutes out to some strip mall where the one nearest general nerd hobby shop is which makes it completely inaccessible to kids (not that it matters anyways because kids don't have any cash purchasing power anymroe)

>>151026315
So. Fucking. What. If you don’t like single issues then trades already exist. They’ve been around for 20+ years at this point. Why can’t you buy those instead.

It’s stupid beyond belief to say singles suck, we need single releases that are 120-180 pages instead when that already is a thing, and all that getting rid of single issues would do is kill your entire primary revenue source as well as wipe out comic book stores when most people would only come in once every six, nine months instead of weekly.

I swear to God, how do you people have such little understanding of how anything works? It’s always the same stupid shit being suggested and every time people ignore all the realities of how business works and operates, why the model is what it is, the historical data showing why the things don’t work because it’s been tried already etc.

>>151026339
>it requires driving 15+ minutes

And? You have to drive as far if not longer for everything else already. And if that’s such an impossible task, why don’t you just order trades from Amazon? Why don’t you just read digital?

>>151026401
okay but there are not trades of every comic run. read that as many times as you need.

>it's stupid beyond belief
>how do you have so little understanding
oh, i understand perfectly, but it still comes down to time management. it takes too much time out of my life to have multiple items which are single issues instead of volumes. Marvel, DC and image have already made a smart moves in doing this, but they still have yet to make trades of older runs.
same goes for tv shows. i'm not going to wait a week and watch one single episode. i'm going to wait until there are two or three seasons, then binge on it all at once.

i get what you're saying about operating a business, but why should i give a fuck when people take the time to watch a first season of something that's actually good and the higher ups get rid of it anyway? what "makes money" often has nothing to do with quality. how many fucking seasons of family guy and american dad and loudmouth are there, but we couldn't have a medusa cartoon or more shows like Andor? come on.

>>151026339
Kids buy manga because they get 5-6 chapters for $10 and it isn't woke preachy bullshit like every marvel and DC comic is now. Boomers and gen xtards will never understand this simple fact

>>151026438
>okay but there are not trades of every comic run

But most modern runs do. That is the business model. Unless the comic did so shitty numbers that it never could afford to do a trade, in which case you more than likely were never reading that comic in the first place.

>but they still have yet to make trades of older runs.

The fuck are you talking about. Marvel has reprinted insanely well their old back catalogues. They did it with Essential line. They’re doing it again with Epic collections. They’re doing it with massive Omnibus collections. With DC it’s different because that’s 80+ years of material to cover and MOST of that is never going to pay itself back the restoration and printing costs because 95% of the audience isn’t going to be interested. It has to make money. Then there’s the fact is that the longer you print any given title in collections the less it will sell. Volume 1 sells well, volume 6 is already doing pretty bad numbers. Good luck trying to get to volume 10. That is the reality.

What people refuse to admit the root problem is the audience itself. Manga isn’t an argument. Just because I like watching American movies doesn’t mean I’m going to also watch Japanese films or Iranian films just because they’re movies. You’re dealing with entirely different and independent audiences. Same applies to comics. People who read manga have little interest in western comics. It’s not about hating superhero because they won’t read Image, Vertigo or Black Horse either.

This is what everyone here always cannot grasp. You people look at everything through your petty fanboy rose tinted glasses. Most people don’t care. Someone who reads Chainsaw man doesn’t give a shit about the Hulk, Sandman, Yusagi Yojimbo, I Kill Giants. To them American comics are lame and dumb, manga is cool. They’re never going to pick up Persepolis on their own, it’s like trying to get K-pop fan to listen to country music.

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>>151026533
>and it isn't woke preachy bullshit like every marvel and DC comic is now.

I love this vapid NPC script

>>151004121
His inspiration in that regard was B. Kriegstein, you /a/pe.

>>151026550
>you can't get to volume 10
cool so a comic with a short run to get to volume 6 seems just right. x-man only had 75 issues, 90s morbius does not have a bajillion issues

>the audience isn't going to be interested
you really think so? spider-man had what, 4 different titles at one time (amazing, peter parker, spectacular and sensational). can you think of a capeshit character that had 4 ongoings at the same time and are there omnibuses for them? you don't think such a popular and well known character would sell? what am i missing here because i thought the entire point of selling comics was to sell comics. why is your argument "this doesn't sell" which would beg the question of there being no point to comics?

>unless the comic did shitty number that it could never afford to have a trade in which case you were likely to never read it
and yet i did read unlikely comics, and it's hard to find an entire run of something even if you search in multiple LCSes and look online. what is the smallest order that a publishing company demands? i'm not asking that 1000 of a particular omnibus be printed. it could be less than 500 in some cases. do you want people to spend money or not?

>>151026555
Marvel and DC is all woke preachy bullshit. It can't be avoided.

>>151026646
>cool so a comic with a short run to get to volume 6 seems just right

Except most old runs are not popular enough to get to that point. Sales go down fast on trades.

>you don't think such a popular and well known character would sell?

Batman is highly popular character but most people are never going to buy his golden age or silver age stuff. Spider-man can be popular but that doesn’t automatically mean a run from forty years ago is going to sell well enough to make it a priority reprint.

>what am i missing here

The fact that most people today don’t care about these comics. Just because you’re interested doesn’t mean anything when almost nobody else is. And you don’t generate interest by just printing a thing. Supply doesn’t create demand.

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>>151026839
>sales go down fast on trades
so you don't have to print as many of them, but still can

>spider man is popular but doesn't automatically mean a run from forty years ago is gong to sell well enough
oh fuck you think modern spider man is going well? who the fuck do you think has more money to spend, gen z and alphas or milliennials and gen x?

>people don't care about comics
then fuck off, don't come to /co/ any more
>you don't generate interest by just printing a thing
strawman argument. i never once said that.
>supply doesn't create demand
you're not even getting the point. if a publishing company wants to sell something, then someone should be able to go to a website and order it. how the fuck do you think a business works?

not to mention that there are people who like a single character and would probably be willing to buy a compilation of everything a character was in. there's a woman who has thousands of dollars in joker memorobilia. but you think there aren't fans that would want a volume of everything their fav character was in? you think too small. you suck at library science, you're bad at business.

https://www.idsnews.com/article/2025/10/bloomington-woman-world-record-joker-memorabilia-collection

>hurr durr we can't print omnibuses to order. we do not live in an age of computers. it's not comic companies' job to compile issues and print them!

>>151026867
>so you don't have to print as many of them, but still can

Not if you lose money on them. This isn’t charity. The profit margins need to be there to justify a printing.

>if a publishing company wants to sell something, then someone should be able to go to a website and order it.
>how the fuck do you think a business works?

You can order their comics from various online stores or pay them a subscription fee and read them digitally.

>>151026935
>if you lose money on them
They don't. Stop eating up their bullshit.

>>151026839
>Except most old runs are not popular enough to get to that point.
????? I remember both Marvel and DC crying a few years back about how their silver and bronze age stuff was selling better overall compared to the modern stuff coming out.
did this change somewhere?

>>151027306
You remember wrong.

>>151027323
No, that was a thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/comments/cex5lo/didio_we_do_these_facsimile_editions_where_we/

>>151026413
No, i don't.
I reject the notion of driving 20 minutes out, 20 minutes in, just to pay 12 dollars for 20 pages every fucking month and you should go fuck yourself.
>digital
Garbage can apps
>trades
Oh yeah, trades of 30+ year old runs that i probably already have in some form, that's definitely the sustainable business model. They're not putting out trades of ongoing runs you dumb faggot.
Make shit into progs and maybe i'd humor it but i'm not wasting my time just to pick up a bad deal.

Why not go euro style? Writing conventions evolved and no audience will bother reading an informative wall of text nowadays. Release the full thing for 15-20 bucks and make more expensive deluxe editions with your hot selling items for the collectors. Maybe it will force writers to actually write a story instead of some decompressed issues with cliff-hangers as if they were working on a tv-show.

>>151027404
Because euro style is the worst.

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On a side note, can any western author/artist make a weekly comic, or at least bi-weekly comic? If it's about printing, they can publish it digitally, like on Jump Plus. If it's about color, they can just make it black and white, like how manga works?

>>151027476
you're asking for the impossible

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>>151003031
...and yet they sold better. And more people read them.

>>151027485
Why?
What is the difference between a Western comic artist and a mangaka?

>>151027487
It was a different time. They wouldn't sell today.

>>151027492
Talent and humility.

>>151027487
Because there were no other alternatives for entertainment other than television. Now, instead of choosing comics, they could just choose manga or video games, which people did

>>151003080
>People have a weird nostalgia for things they never experienced.
I was reading the original World's Finest run (wasn't alive when they were originally printed) and it's about one great/memorable story to every four mediocre ones.
But that's still a much better track record than buying 6 Spider-Man or X-men comics today and they are all just boring exposition, several issues having no standalone value, working towards a plot line that isn't interesting in the first place, usually just ending with a teaser to try and get you to keep reading. A teaser often fueled by shock value or rage bait.
The old way wasn't perfect but it felt like less of a waste of time.

most of the problem can be fixed if its run weekly

>>151027354
>They're not putting out trades of ongoing runs

Yes they are. It has to sell really bad in single issues for there to be no trade.

>>151027535
About a decade ago Jim Lee was pushing digital weekly comics hard, with a collected monthly, they did okay but it didn't seem to really catch on.

They were really cheap, too.

>>151027487
Because people 60 years ago used to read much more than they do today, dumb fuck.

>>151027550
They should keep pushing it, especially during covid era

>>151027528
>Well I read this one old comic so the quality ration from that can then be applied to everything

That’s not how that works

>>151027508
>>151027555
How does less people reading in general create a case for decompressed storytelling being the correct path? It clearly isn't working either.

Gentlemen.
Two partners.

>>151027470
Eurocomics are doing well at home. American comics don't even do that.

>>151027601
>Eurocomics are doing well at home
Post proof

>>151027568
They’re unrelated.

>>151027535
Many comics effectively run weekly, say Batman, Spider-man and X-men. If they just combined them into a single title and had an actual editor to tie things together I think it would be more successful than it is now, assuming no other changes. The problem then falls on characters that do not have that level of popularity

>>151002671
marvel and dc are nortubel tier anyway
much better comics exist

>>151027476
>>151027492
Mangakas who do weekly comics work with 2-4 assistants and an editor. That's the main difference.

>>151027613
>https://desuarchive.org/co/search/text/Nortubel/
Fuck off retard

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>>151027604
Hopefully you can read colors.

>>151027664
>Manga shit on Eurocomic
>Doing well
sure anon

>>151027664
Interesting, how does this compare to say, 10 or 20 years ago? It doesn't really mean anything without understanding the difference. All that really says is that the overall market has shrunk from one year to the next which could be due to any number of variables.

>>151027528
Well that's your problem, Spider-man and X-Men comics have always been bad, yet you've read hundreds of issue of that slop.

>>151027601
It's the worst style though. And they still get their asses handed to them by the japs.

>>151027628
And writers that do one issue per month work with a penciller, a inker, a colorist, a letterer, an editor, an assistant editor and a bit with a group editor, too.

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>>151028087
The actual time consuming part is the drawing/penciling itself. Inking and coloring is fast in comparison. Having one single person have to work on the backgrounds and tech work and background characters is what eats up so much time. The rest of the process is at the mercy of how long the penciling takes(which itself is at the mercy of how long the writing takes, but it's less often a delay is for a writer than an artist)
The fact that you think those divisions is equivalent to a manga where often a lot of the characters and backgrounds will be drawn by other artists from the main artist just tells me you're not too familiar with the process
Back when comics were big business, American creators did employ similar processes taking on apprentices to help with backgrounds and focusing on smaller tasks while the lead artist would focus on the main characters. That's been minimized as more artists work from home and there's less money to split between creators

>>151028154
It's funny, I showed you that more people work on a issue of an american comic book and yet you went full dork mode ACKSHUALLY and proceeded to try to move the goal posts.

>>151028074
>It's the worst style though
Huh?

>>151028197
I’m trying to explain how the process works.
And your statement isn’t even entirely true given a manga like MHA would have like 7-8 assistants alone, not even counting editors , even before it went big

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>>151003113
Thank you.

>>151028954
The tome style is the worst style.

>>151029001
>a manga like MHA would have like 7-8 assistants alone
Does it really?

>>151029001
And Bleach had 0 assistants.

>>151027487
they were also cheaper

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>>151029185
in both ways

My pitch to fix comics:
A seasonal TV format. Bank stories and then release 10-12 or so issues weekly. Sell access to the season.
Figure out the most cost effective model so the individual issues aren't horridly expensive. Maybe do it digitally and at week 4 release a print trade that includes issue 5 to encourage sales. Or the manga model of multiple series in one book.

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>>151029261
>Season pass now in comic form

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>>151029119
Yes, this is from volume 1, before it was a success

>>151029465
>the woman is around to do the laundry
of course

>>151029482
this is a very important job though you can't write a good manga in stinky clothing

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>>151029147
Here Kubo says he has four
Other times he says they left ( and it corresponds to when he starts doing less backgrounds..)

>>151029549
>Assistants to do the backgrounds
is that a meta joke because lol, lmao

>>151027487
yeah, they were also printed on disposable newspaper paper and were more novelty bullshit ads than comics.
the 1950s isnt the 2020s.

>>151029566
It’s one of the usual duties given to assistants, yes.

>>151029598
We must go back. Magazines being affordable could help mantain the industry.

>>151029723
American magazines are no longer in an affordable range due to barely selling. It’s a double edged sword. Even attempting to irony on newsprint isn’t even a budget option anymore because it’s barely used in the US anymore.

>>151025109
>>151025154
>posts two good looking pages and says they're bad
Yeah those are some subliterate opinions. I'm all for telling stories through art, but those two examples are fine.

>>151003031
Silver Age comics are designed bt the Comics Code Authority, see why Superman eating Mcdonald's food or Zebra Batman exist.

>>151030117
>subliterate
Imagine getting up on your high horse about capeshit comics. If you actually read books then that text would bother you more, but you're uncultured so you think those pages are like literature but with paintings.

>>151007800
love it when people say this. Just proves you plant shit bait, argue in bad faith, and when you run out of sophistry you blame the other person for not entertaining you enough. And this is supposed to make you sound above it all when you just wasted your own time.

>>151003616
ok how about we be more specific. I want a single issue story that I cant breeze through in 8 minutes that is also charging me $5-10

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>>151030170
Here's a spread from Lone Wolf and Cub that dumps bigger blocks of text than those pages. Literate doesn't mean relating exclusively to literature, it's one's ability to read.

>>151030268
That's not more text when you consider that it's two pages. But still, it's amazing how after all these years "people" like you still refuse to acknowledge that it's not the volume of words on the page that is the problem, it's how shallow it is, how little it says, how repetitive it is. You must be bot posting.

>>151027476
not enough talent or demand for something like that eventually someone will be forced to concede japanese artists are more efficient and talented

>>151030353
One of those pages was by Frank Miller, an artist himself with an artist's mind of how to tell stories, who was influenced by Lone Wolf.

>>151030194
Why do you expect people to take you seriously when you reply with the equivalent of "no u"? And this all started when you threw a bitchfit because someone didn't like a comic book you like. You accuse someone of shitposting when you resort to stale shit meme posting like "I accept your concession"? Grow up.

>>151030445
>who was influenced by Lone Wolf.
But never produced something as good as Lone Wolf.

>>151030491
Eh who cares, Dark Knight, Sin City, 300, lot of fine comics.

>>151030478
You throw a temper tantrum throughout this thread so no one believes you're arguing in good faith.

>>151030525
So I tell you you're throwing a temper tantrum, which you did, and then you tell me I'm throwing a temper tantrum. Great. I'd tell you to grow up, again, but it's clear I'm talking to a rock.

>>151030600
Great, see you having another temper tantrum in another thread where you pretend to be an expert in comics and manga

>>151030686
No, you are.

>>151027328
Facsimile editions were mainly reprinting single issues, back at that point when Didio was complaining about it, it usually was Key Issues like first appearances and such. They weren't reprinting a whole run. It's a whole different argument to what >>151026839 said about old RUNS, as in a long stretch of issues. Facsimile Keys were doing better than their current comics also partially because a lot of people couldn't afford the real thing. The real test is whether Fascimiles of non-key issues do better than current comics.

>>151025599
Thanks for confirming how fake you are, again
> I read classic western comics until I was 10 then switched primarily to Manga at age 11. That was 20 years ago.
>I told you my anecdotal opinions and experiences and you responded like a midwit pseud. Stop projecting your insecurities on to me dumbdumb.

Wow, so you have the mentality and maturity of an 11 year old at age 31. What an accomplishment.

>>151030764
Great, see you and your temper tantrum in the next thread

>>151030837
Nah, you.

>>151002671
Silver age died and never came back for a reason...

>>151030491
I like most of Miller's 80s output more than Lone Wolf & Cub, which is very repetitive.

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It's an issue of tone

Comics today, by and large, and serious in tone, they are not campy like they were in the past. And short single issue stories just don't work in a serious tone story

>>151032439
are serious in tone*

>>151032439
There were plenty of serious done-in-one issues made in the bronze age and and beyond.

>>151032439
Imagine this
A serious movie story about a company heist
>Main bad guy plots to steal the secrets of a company so he can rip off their products and make himself rich
>He achieves this by identifying one of the key employees at the company and uses nano technology to hijack his brain and cause him to physically go to the company hq and open the safe
>having stolen the information using his unwilling helper, the mind controlled victim pleas with the thief's capacity for reason, that the company is moral, that it operates on love and family values
>overcome by this, the thief leaps out of the victims brain, but clumsily lands in one of his own devices, trapping him, foiling his plan
And by the way you have to do this all in an 11 minute timeframe
It sounds completely retarded right? Well that's the plot of one of the most popular Spongebob episodes.

It's all about tone

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>>151032509
forgot pic
Try doing it with this tone

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Also it's worth mentioning the issues in the polar opposite of single issue silver age stories
That is, the 10+ issues where nothing gets done and all the characters do it talk.
These really disgrace the name of decompression. These are just bad, in many ways, but in this context they are bad in terms of pacing.

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>>151032556
In a movie, there is a limited amount of time to tell the entire story, and this governs the pacing. If you cannot tell your entire story in 2 hours, your pacing is too slow. If the story finishes 30 minutes in, your pacing is too fast.

There is no escaping this restriction in movies, and so very few movies have dysfunctional pacing.
But this restriction is far looser in a comic where they can just make another issue, and another issue, and another issue.
And so many writers have fallen into the bad habit of writing painfully drawn out scenes that last far longer than they ought to.

The issues about pacing are ultimately nothing todo with the length of the movie (or whatever other medium) but are todo with the audience's attention span (which is also why there are few movies longer than 3 hours).

These comics are just boring. They're drawn out too long, nothing is happening. It's completely an issue with pacing. The writers are total amateurs at pacing their stories.

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>>151032591
The three-act structure, or whatever other similiar formula for structuring stories is good advice.
But it applies not just to the whole story as a whole, but it is also relevant at smaller snapshots of the story.
There must be a three-act structure (or whatever other similiar formula) for the whole plot, but also each act within that. The must be a structure for each scene within the acts.

It's about audience engagement. Like music that has a structure also at multiple levels. You must guide your reader through the story in an engaging way so that they don't get bored.
These stories suck because there's just nothing going on in them. There's no plot structure, there's hardly a plot at all. It's totally lethargic.

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>>151032629
Going again with the movie comparison

Imagine a movie scene where two characters are talking at a restaurant, and specifically the moments that aren't actually plot relevant, but rather are just set dressing to establish the mood that they are at a restaurant.
Consider the length of that scene. Consider its length in relation to the length of the whole movie. How long is it proportionally?

Now do the same for those scenes in comics, and consider their relation to the length of the story. You'll no doubt find that while movies are keen to leave as many time wasting scenes on the cutting room floor as possible, comics tend to keep them all in and often entire issues are spent on their characters wasting time.

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Multi part stories told in episodic fashion. Like you have some big mystery Spider-man has to solve. One hint leads him to a place where he fights a robot that gives him a bigger part of the mystery. It's not really hard. Just stop writing comics like they're TV episodes.

Comics are good.

>>151003459
the big trick is to have stories that lead into each other instead of one story that needs five issues do five issues that lead to a big pay out. The Avengers fight a villain but Hulk isn't happy that no one treated him fairly so he leaves, no the Avengers are in a lurch but oh look we got Captain America.