Why is it that DC can't figure out what to do with Jason?
>>151093666His existence makes Batman look like a fucking retard because all it does is raise questions to the No Kill Rule none of the writers have the skill or motivation to answer.
>>151093666They can't even figure out what to do with Tim Drake.
>>151093666Blame Judd Winick who created the problem to start, and DiDio for being a fool to greenlight it.
>>151093878"Jason those fuckers keep ressurecting and sooner or later one of them will become a demon,I doubt that world can handle demon clayface absorbing everything and sending them to hell"
>>151093962Loeb retconned some of Winick’s stories recently, 15 years after they were published. Now Jason didn’t help Hush during Hush and wasn’t present at the cemetery.
>>151093917Is that why he's back to being the main Robin?
>>151094166>Loeb retconned some of Winick’s stories recentlyHow?And that's dumb because Hush never explains why Jason's grave was empty, so it encouraged there being more to the story than what was revealed at the time.
>>151094276The part where Jason was present at the cemetery and Clayface swapped out with him, and in general it implies Jason didn’t help Hush at all.
>>151093666That's the biggest cope in this fanbase. DC know what they want to do with Jason since he died. > strawman villain that make batman and batboys look good in comparaison> Batman's failure TM to milk the bat-angst and give some achievement to JokerThat's it. They just didn't expect some people to care for a character who they tried to turn into a hate sink or for the no-kill rule fatigue to gain traction with all the shits they write because they're extra retarded like that.
>>151094171>Red Robin is main Robinlol cope
>>151094171What stunted this dude’s career? My guess is they gave Bats a new Robin before Tim got to grow out of the role so now he’s in limbo forever. What I’d do is >age him up so he’s not a lanky twink anymore>give him a solo run as a noir style detective in gotham pd >at night he becomes The Falcon and gets a judge Dredd makeover, but less lethal and authoritarian>has all sorts of gadgets built into his suit like his pappy Bruce>becomes the most competent and smartest of the Robins
>>151094369You mean in Hush 2?
>>151095035If they had a CDZpilled Latino on staff, he could be an off brand Ikki and really deserve his Jasonsisters.
>>151095103He's not Red Robin anymore, he's back to just Robin in the main Batman book.Damian is also Robin but he's in the Batman and Robin side book.
>>151095201No, from Lost Days where he tells him Bruce’s secret identity and gave him intel on Bruce. All of the dialogue in H2SH makes it sound like that never happened
>>151095534H2SH is what I meant by where did Loeb retcon this.
>>151093666I’m no expert, but I assume it’s because there’s two types of Jason fans. The ones who want him to be the Punisher, gunning down criminals and being a crime lord himself, which of course makes him oppose Batman and serve as a villain. Or the others who want him as part of the Batfamily and work with Bruce and the others as some found family thing. These two versions are of course mutually exclusive from each other, and DC can’t decide which one it wants to go with.
>>151093666Jason's problems is that no one can fully agree what they want him to be.Should he be a hero? A villain? Something in-between? Should he just go back to being dead? Should he be in good terms with Bruce? Or constantly fight with him? What about with the rest of the Bat-Family? Who should be his friends and supporting cast? Should he stay in Gotham or go somewhere else? Get his own city or just travel around the world? Should he look like a biker, a tacticool soldier, or go back to wearing a traditional cape suit? Should he fight with guns or magic swords? Should he deal with drugs again? How often should he kill? Should he even still kill at all? Etc.
>>151095729There are three versions of Jason being pushed, none by real Jason fans.Fan 1: Wants Jason to abandon Gotham and Batman related characters, go to a new city and kill drug dealers and rapists in every issue. Has a lot of opinions and ideas, but no actual direction for the character. Generally hostile to the idea of Jason being like the Punisher, yet offers no others ideas on how he would fit in the DC universe that actually work. Usually only saw the Under the Red Hood movie and has maybe read a few New 52 era comics if any, no familiarity with Jason as Robin."Fan" 2: Wants Jason to be an anti-villain member of the Batman rogue's gallery. A sympathetic villain but a villain none the less. He would appear now and then as an enemy for the Batfamily to beat up. No long-term stories, monthly comics, or much thought on character direction. Had the heyday in the late 2000s with writers like Daniel and Morrison. This direction has since been abandoned, but some DC fans who are not also Jason fans want it to return.DC: Wants Jason to be just another superhero, one that makes edgy comments here and there, but still a good guy as much as possible. Has tried replacing his guns several times and getting him to stop killing.Sadly those of us Jason fans who value Jason's entire history, including his time as Robin and his origins in Gotham, want an antihero Punisher direction and for him to occasionally work alongside and against the Batfamily like Punisher and Daredevil, do not have any voice in how Jason is portrayed.
>>151093666It’s not that DC doesn’t know what to do with Jason. They just don’t know how to make him look good. People aren’t going to buy your book just to see their favorite character look like a loser or get humiliated, for god’s sake.
I just want my Nightwing and Red Hood Brave and the Bold series. Is that so much to ask?
>>151096250I don't understand why there's so much pushback against the more Punisher direction. There's enough to Jason that he'd still be distinct and DC doesn't have enough characters who kill criminals. Wild Dog and Vigilante exist but you can't exactly continue the original Vigilante story and no one does anything with Wild Dog.
Put him back to the 2000s standard. Let him be the villain. It's stupid otherwise. He can't be killing people in one series and helping make family dinner at the manor in the next.
>>151093666Stick him in Bludhaven. I'm being entirely serious.
>>151096943To elaborate on this, if Fraction and Jimenez are taking Gotham in this lighter neon direction, double down on making Bludhaven worse than Gotham like it's been stated to be. Nightwing and Red Hood could have a really cool rivalry. Some might say a vigilante with batons having an adversarial relationship with a gun toting antihero may be too much like Daredevil and The Punisher, but I think them both being former Robins would add another layer and differentiate it.
>>151096829They seem to have the false impression that Frank is crazy kills every petty criminal he sees, as opposed to Jason allegedly only killing really bad ones and being more logical. This is of course not true at all, Frank spares lots of criminals and Jason has killed small fries too. Jason should try to be like Frank in 80s and 90s Punisher comics, because those were more tongue in cheek and remembered it's a comic. That makes it easier to write about a vigilante killing people.Another reason might be because the lefty reddit/tumblr/old-twitter crowd only knows of Punisher for his association with gun culture and is afraid of that happening to Jason as well.
>>151096180Just say Jason is a polarizing character. For his haters (who are very vocal and in charge) more so even than his fans and that's not a mince achievement when he is a different character everytime they use him.>>151096250Very few RHfags know or care about anything Jaybin related. It's either "he was baby so it's tragic what he turned into uwu" or "assignated RH at birth". In both case Batman didn't du nuthing...
Let him become a Kamen Rider like hero that takes on a shadow origination that has a world wide presence. With that, he will have a villain of the week and foot soldiers that he can kill as needed. Remove him from the family and let him and some others do their own thing.
>>151096829Agreed. He shouldn’t even be in Gotham, How could he forgive Batman for letting Joker live. He should be with other crashouts like Grifter, Tigress, and Arsenal doing mercenary Rambo shit in Vietnam or something in an attempt to drown out his demons
>>151097056I think Frank and Batman are subject to some of the most bad faith readings of any comic characters. No Frank doesn't go around mowing down jaywalkers, and Batman doesn't break shoplifters' jaws for stealing food for their families.
>>151097016Why does every answer for fixing Jason and/or Tim come back to mooching more stuff from Dick?
>>151097178I never got why they saddled him with the Batfamily when he's the one character who should have distanced himself. I love your idea but I'd add in Deathblow since he's another neglected Wildstorm character
>>151093666>Why is it that DC can't figure out what to do with Jason?Because the "foundation" created by Judd Winick in UTRH is unstable. There is no effort to tieing ADITF to UTRH, there is no effort to explain Jason's character change when Jim Starlin began writing, there is no effort to ensure Jason has a way out, there is no effort to have him grow as a character, there is no effort to give him a victory over Joker, there is only humilation for Jason in UTRH, and yet DC has made it the pillar of Jason's character.
>>151097069>Very few RHfags know or care about anything Jaybin related.Yes. That's where all of Jason's problems come from. Many of his fans and haters alike think he was this angry bad Robin. Few are aware that he was a hero who died a hero's death protecting his mother. All portrayals of Red Hood being villainous are doomed to fail for this reason, while making him overly sympathetic ignores that he's a tragic character. The only solution is to be an antihero.>In both case Batman didn't du nuthing...I do not understand this obsession with blaming either Jason or Bruce. DC used to mandate remembering Jason as a bad kid who deserved to die, now there is push back putting all the blame on Bruce. I've never seen a Marvel fan lose sleep over if its Steve's fault Bucky died or not.
>>151096829>>151097178We already had Jason in Not-New Orleans, and it was stupid because Jason Todd is literally tied with Bruce for most Gotham-oriented character.>He should be with other crashouts like Grifter, Tigress, and Arsenal doing mercenary Rambo shit in Vietnam or something in an attempt to drown out his demonsDude, Jason is already in hotwater, the last thing he needs more association with nobody characters like both RHATO runs.
Third time's the charm, Red Hood and The Outlaws again, this time with Ravager and Red Devil, maybe Terra too later on for extra conflict.
>>151096829Because being "The Punisher" fucking sucks, Jason literally can't kill anyone that matters.Remember when he literally shot Penguin on the face but his plot armor was so thick that he survived that? You can't keep doing that shit, if Jason becomes a Punisher-type character, he'll just seem like a failure.
>>151097239Well, they are brothers, it only makes sense that they would get some hand-me-downs besides the Robin identity.
>>151093666To whom it may concern, back in September there was an French interview with Judd Winick, and it was eye opening because of how disparaging of Jason Todd it was. Judd Winick really does think that Jason was a bad Robin. https://letoilerouge-qst.blogspot.com/2025/09/interview-diversite-creation-et-jason.html
>>151097248It pains me that there were so many good writers from 1988-2003 who could've done Jason's return a lot better and given him direction to grow as a character... but were not allowed to because editorial didn't know the vote was rigged and thought Jason was a hated character who needed to stay dead. Then this dumbass hack arrives at the end of the Denny O'Neil era when new editors don't understand or respect canon.
>>151097439>>151097430Oh, it gets fucking worse. It gets so much worse...
>>151097439Chuck Dixon would have done cool shit with the Red Hood concept since this is before he went off the deep end
>>151097247Hell yeah brother we got ourselves an 80s action movie with this lineup. Wildstorm is so slept on
>>151097247Because Huntress and Azrael don't deserve to be the edgy anti-hero of the Bat-Family, Jason gets priority because he's very popular despite how polarizing he is.
>>151096829>I don't understand why there's so much pushback against the more Punisher direction.Probably because of how out of character it actually is. Before UTRH ruined him, Jason Todd showed extreme levels of mercy to the people who personally wrong him. Not just that, but he's a kid of the streets who did crime out of desperation, he knows people do bad things when they are desperate, so what gives him that right to take someone's life?>but he would only kill pedos and shitThen at that point it becomes a misery to read.
>>151097516Then why do they waste all of them, they either get buck broken into following his no kill rule or barely brought up
>>151097016>let Jason becomes a Nightwing's character/villainThis fagggotry again... Rivalry over what? Dick being a gary stu? Who daddy dearest loves best? more no-kill rule bullshit? We know all that. Nightwing hold his ground because his fanbase has a master degree on eating shit but no character has ever flourished with or under him.
>>151093666One thing I will never understand is that they never really examine Batman's no kill rule as a flaw. Jason is right for wanting to kill Joker and what does Batman do? He sees Jason as the one in the wrong. For once I would like to see a story that flat out says Jason Todd is right and Batman is in the wrong or at least very flawed.
>>151097672Anon, do you not remember how UTRH played out? Jason wasn't out for justice, he was literally murdering in the streets and leaving their bodies out in the open like it's Mexico. Don't think about it too hard because the writer of UTRH didn't either. Everyone hated his ending so much that he corrected himself when he did the movie.
>>151093666Make him finally draw a line about whom to kill and whom not to kill. Show that he did attain wisdom and experience as Red Hood.Don't have him follow the no kill rule, but do show that if a villain is too irredeemable/evil/dangerous to let live, he will deliver the bullets to their skulls.Crooks that do shit that doesn't deserve a bullet get instead kicks in the nuts and send to the hospital.Crooks and juves that have redeeming qualities instead get a slap to the back of the head by him instead and given a 2nd chance. Maybe even have Jason adopt street urchins to keep them from turning to a life of crime?Also have him completely distance himself from the Bat Family. After all the BS he should never forgive Batman for the whole Joker thing and in fact keep calling him out on his principles and how they ruin indirectly the lives of innocent people.
>>151097626>Rivalry over what?Jason steals Rose from Dick’s harem.
>>151097430>>151097248It sucks that Winnick hasn't changed his views on Jason after two decades.
>>151097254I think you understand why but just out of curiosity, did Marvel spent 30 + years gaslighting readers to not admit that one character had more than a lapse of judgement? Batman characters don't live during WW2 or fight an official war. Jaybin's situation was tragic because Bruce has all the keys to make his life better but made everything worst for his ward as Batman instead and learned nothing in the process.
>>151097721Jason already plapped that, and the pussy game is horrendous, which is why he avoids her.
>>151097368This tired "dialogue" about a punisher-like direction is the only reason why I regret that the RH comics got canceled. I want to believe the noise would have died down for a bit in the wake of that trainwreck.
Ironically the Outlaws was the best use of Jason.Both the OG Titans cast offs and Dark Trinity Outlaws gave Jason friends to bounce off of and care about and anchored him. He got to have wacky adventures and do more shit than just be a Punisher rip off and the Dark Trinity arc with Bizarro saw Jason trying to reform Bizarro was pretty underrated.
>>151097877>This tired "dialogue" about a punisher-like direction is the only reason why I regret that the RH comics got canceledSame reason as you, but also because I wanted it to go on longer so it could have put a bullet in the head of the"jAson does not bElONg iN tHE BatFAmilY aND gOtHAM CiTy" proponents.
>>151097328> Jason Todd is literally tied with Bruce for most Gotham-oriented character.Except that’s boring. We already have 3 other robins. Besides, it would make more sense for a guy like him to leave that shithole and start a new life somewhere else. Send him to the Cambodian countryside as a reluctant hero who ends up mowing down evil warlords n shit to save the villagers idk. Anything besides being the rubber bullet guy> the last thing he needs more association with nobody charactersThis popularity contest mentality doesn’t lead to good storytelling. If hes going to have a supporting cast, I rather see him interact with characters that fit his tone. And the tone I’d like for Jason is that of a war vet with a death wish
>>151097247I could maybe see him as a reluctant member and ally of the batfamily, like they’d only call on him in a real emergency or something, but not in a close family way where he’s invited over for dinner and shit, would be weird. >So Jason, heard you only shot five people last week. >proud of you, that must have took restraint. Pass the butter please.
>>151097328>ArsenalFor all the Hoodfags that cry over people not knowing anything about Jason, maybe 1% know anything about Arsenal beyond Lobdell.You are not the 1%.
>>151098004>Hey Jason, did you bring back that shirt you borrowed last time? Can I check your duffel bag?>Oh hey there's only 7 severed heads in here, are you cutting back?
>>151097439DC itself was rigging it, by writing him as unlikable
>>151097911It was tied to stupid crossover event and the spacing was shit but TFZ had the better idea by putting Jason is a situations where he interacts way more with villains or anti-villains in a setting where death was trivialized.
>>151097911Titans Outlaws was always going to be hated. Wipe out Dick Grayson's history with his 1970s Best Friend and 1980s Girlfriend and put them in a throuple with his 1980s replacement? It's like they forgot why people hated Jason Todd in the first place.
>>151097981>Except that’s boring. We already have 3 other robins.Except none of them have the connection that Jason and Bruce did. Bruce's relationship with Dick? Boring. Bruce's relationship with Tim? Professional, yet close and was interesting until Identity Crisis ruined it. But Jason? That's Bruce Wayne's first son, and he failed him as a father. That;s more interesting than UTRH making it about Joker and the no-kill rule. >Besides, it would make more sense for a guy like him to leave that shithole and start a new life somewhere elseIt really wouldn't considering Gotham City is the worst city in America and Batman needs all the help he can get fighting off costumed freaks. Jason would actually consider it selfish not to stay in Gotham and helping people out.
>DC: Jason Todd was actually despised by the readers and always was!>The phone stunt tally was decided by only 73 measly votes, instead of the blowout that Denny O'Neil and the editorial wanted it to be. Meaning Jason wasn't actually as hated as people made him out to be. >Meanwhile, this guy was literally the Cousin Oliver of the Titans and revolted the readers, and they wanted him out off the books ASAP.>Never gets the hate parade from DC.The DC editorial is full of dicks.
>>151098067I felt like Task Force Z was the best use of Jason in a long time, really liked his dynamic with Two-Face, wish they'd bring that back at some point.
>>151098319>Never gets the hate paradeDanny Chase was killed off and has actually stayed dead.Jason was brought back, and even after multiple shitty books, he keeps showing up again, and no matter how bad his books are, he keeps getting new ones.
>>151098474You're missing the point: the Jason fandom hate machine was pushed heavily by the editorial to get rid of Jason. Meanwhile Danny was actually despised and everyone wanted him gone.
>>151098319It is a log story, but Terry Log took the blunt.And Jason is a Robin, despite Dick being the thing that pushed him to stardom, for decades the creatives are trying to get rid of the concept.
>>151098543>And Jason is a Robin, despite Dick being the thing that pushed him to stardom, for decades the creatives are trying to get rid of the concept.The story of the marketing team putting Denny O'Neil's feet to the fire after his stupid stunt and demanding Robin be brought back is one of the few times where the marketing team were the heroes of the story.
>>151098493>Meanwhile Danny was actually despised and everyone wanted him gone.And now he's gone for good, Jason was Robin so they made a bigger deal out of him, Danny was just some TT side character that they promptly got rid off and never brought back.
>>151098765It's funny because Marv Wolfman went to bat for his creation saying that readers didn't give him a chance while shitting on Jason for being a thief.
So many casuals in this thread that didn't realize Phantasm was just Danny Chase.
>>151098871Titans stopped being good after my waifu Donna was violated by an ugly bastard.
>>151098007All I know about Arsenal was that was a crackhead and that things were going so bad for him that a run as mediocre as RHATO was seen as an upgrade for him.
>>151097981That tone is retarded as fuck.Jason needs to hang out with people like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro. Polar opposites who can produce character growth and wacky shenanigans for Jason to get into that flesh him out and let him do new and exciting things and be part of the greater DC Universe and give him friends who he can do silly fun shit with and move on from being a bargain bin Punisher knock off.
they should just write jason like shadow the hedgehogpair him back up with artemis and bizarro for his own team darkthat's it, genuinely. just rip off shadow
>>151099039>Jason needs to hang out with people like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro.Yeah, because that's what I want in a Jason Todd comic: Jason having to share it with characters nobody was asking for to begin with.
>>151099098I'd rather they bring back OG Outlaws. Quirky TT cartoon Starfire, asshole with a heart of gold Jason, and single dad ex-junkie Roy having wacky adventures with Blackfire, Clock King, Cheshire, and Killer Croc dropping by from time to time
>>151099139Jason having wacky friends is the only time his book has sold well though fucker
>>151099163>Jason having wacky friends is the only time his book has sold well though fuckerRed Hood and the D-Listers is the only time Jason had a ongoing that wasn't a mini. It was also terrible because Scott Lobdel is a terrible writer.
>>151098871Wasn't Phantasm ALSO Raven's mom? How did that work?Anyhow, after that, Danny was gone for good, my point is that he never ACTUALLY came back to life, he stayed dead and is still treated like that.
>Jason Todd>Tim Drake>Stephanie Brown>Fan -favorite Harper RowThere, I created an Outlaws with Batman oriented characters and no D-list filler.
>>151099017It shows, putting Roy with Jason was only him hitting lower than Rock Bottom, and acting like he was somehow Jason's best friend when he already had a whole ass history with Dick was even worse.You can partly blame the New 52 for that, but now that that's over with, we really need to stick Roy to Green Arrow and the Titans.>>151099143>bring back OG OutlawsPlease don't, the last thing Roy and Starfire need is to get back playing second fiddle for Jason Todd, they were both specifically mischaracterized so Jason could play the leader role.
>>151099212>It was also terrible because Scott Lobdel is a terrible writer.Yet you'll see people swear by their lives that RHATO was actually the best thing ever because that was the first book they read and their first introduction to those characters.
>>151093666Literally all of Tim and Jason problems could be solved if DC just send them to other cities to fuck off. Jason could be a Punisher/Mr A rip off (except when he has crossovers with the Batfamily and he becomes a Shadow ripoff) and Tim can be a detective (there's a lot of classic detectives to rip off)
>>151099017Meltzer left JLA so nobody cared about Roy anymore, and Didio needed edge for the edgelords, so Roy had his daughter murdered and his arm ripped off, lost his girlfriend, got back on drugs, and joined a team of villains with his terrorist baby momma. It wasn't a high bar.
>>151099384>a Punisher/Mr A rip offAnd do what? Kill generic no-name villains while constantly failing to kill the ones that actually matter?
>>151099384>Literally all of Tim and Jason problems could be solved if DC just send them to other cities to fuck off.Why do people keep saying this? Tim's solo run had him share Gotham City with Bruce and nobody complained. Why? Because they made a serious effort to use Tim's comic as a way of fleshing out Gotham City. Imagine if they shipped him off to some no-name city opposite of Gotham. It wouldn't have worked. All of Tim and Jason's problems could be solved if they had editors with long term direction and planning instead of tossing them around and propping them up during event stories.
>>151099370>Yet you'll see people swear by their lives that RHATO was actually the best thing ever because that was the first book they read and their first introduction to those characters.Kinda like Scott Snyder New 52 Batman.
RHATO was DC trying to make Jason into a dark Dick Grayson, effectively losing what made Jason distinct in the first place.
>>151097344>Red DevilI'm surprised no one at DC has actually tried to reunite him with Jason, he's like, the only unique hero friend that Jason had so no one will complain that he's stealing from anyone, is a cool badass demon but is actually a nice guy, also has an established friendship with Rose, another character they've been trying to pair with Jason, and is Red just like Red Hood.There's definitely potential there, they just need a continuity nut to remember they were friends and write their reunion.
>>151099457Yes? There is no rule against creating new villains. A lot of the "ones that actually matter" have become stale; there are only so many ways you can do "Joker escapes for the 584923rd time and massacres thousands of people because Bruce is too much of a bitch to put him down for good."
>>151099547Can't be a great detective if you have to share the city with the World's Greatest Detective...
>>151100198>There is no rule against creating new villains.There isn't, but if Jason's just gonna kill rando upstarts instead of, you know, long standing villains that have an actual history of doing horrible stuff and probably deserve to die, he's just gonna seem like kind of a loser.Permanently killing off villains simply doesn't work with the way comics are written.
>>151100198ALSO, if any of the new villains that Jason kills somehow becomes popular, then it'll just be brought back, defeating the whole point of killing him off in the first place.Again, killing characters permanently doesn't work in capeshit, it never has, because if they die permanently, then they don't fucking matter, and if they do matter, they're gonna do everything in their power to bring them back.
>>151100198No one is going to create new villains with the purpose of feeding them to Jason Todd. They're all hoping their characters catch on so they can get royalty bucks.
Send Jason into space.Make him space assassin Robin.Done.
>>151100871Send Jason to space?Now that's the sort of idea that can get you a job at DC Comics.Partner him up with Starfire and send him to the Vega system where he can start dating her sister.And put Lobdell on the book.
>>151100906>Starfire is kidnapped>Jason goes to space to save her>Meets Starfire's sister>They fuck>Save Starfire>Now it's the Scifi adventures of Jason and his space harem>Eventually expands further and becomes a GOTG style team>Who needs Batman when you have Jason and the space babes
>>151093666>Jason comes back>Kills people>Spergs out about Bruce not killing the Joker>proceeds to never kill the Joker>kills no one noteworthy>lurks as an 'anti hero' who does nothing of value>the only story Jason is sent to Arkham is mediocre at bestIf Jason actually was apprehended and he fucked with villains in the Asylum, it would be based, but we're stuck with the most convoluted storytelling. >KO will be Jason vs Joker Fuck this character
>>151093666DC wants to have their cake and eat it too.Jason is popular and bateditorial is extremely territorial and possessive so they want to keep him in the batfamily meaning they have to neuter him and not overstep Bruce's no kill rule. But Under the Red Hood is also extremely popular so they want to keep harkening back to it by having Jason and Bruce butt heads and fight.Doing both just makes Jason an extreme flip flopper with no consistencies, which is bad for characters and character development, especially since DC pretty much never tries to explain Jason's flip flopping in story, they just do it and expect Jasonfags to cheer.Jason leading an antihero/antivillain team with Outlaws would probably be the safest and most consistent status quo he could have considering how uncontroversial the Artemis/Bizarro team was among comic readers, but that would require him being out from under Batman's thumb, which won't happen for more than a year or two because again, Bateditorial is extremely territorial and possessive.
>>151093666Because every time they do they feel the need to fuck it up for retarded reasons.
>>151095198They should of gave him his own superhero identity instead they gave him red robin aka dicks new identity in kingdom come so he ended up being a legacy sidekick to a legacy hero.
>>151093666Because he's a glorified gag character who exists only to suffer.
>>151093666Jason was more valuable dead than alive.
>>151099384Jason could probably sustain his own solo if he had a good creative team but Tim absolutely can't sustain a solo these days.
>>151096829I've always assumed it's because he's too under Batman's thumb and Batman would never allow someone he was responsible for go around killing people. Just do that with Azrael. Or send Jason to another planet.
>>151098474I thought he became Danny the Street?
They should draw his ass more
>>151093666If you ask anyone who only watched the movie and/or played Arkham Knight and aren't in touch with the comics to guess whats Jason Todd current characterization, 100% of them will tell you The Punisher.That's the right answer
>>151098474>no matter how bad his books are, he keeps getting new ones.Like Batman and every other Robin, detective. >>151098809>Be poor and a thief> all the writers/editorial's mask fall off when they mention youDC is so written for and by wasp.
>>151099547People like to talk out of their ass.>>151099739You also don't want what make Jason "distinct" in DC's eyes.
>>151103036>Pre-Crisis Jason had a near identical origin story to Dick Grayson>fans hated him for usurping the character>Post-Crisis Jason had a tragic backstory of being a teenage delincuent>editorial hated him for being a thief and a "bad boy"Never had a chance>DC is so written for and by waspTo be fair, Marv Wolfman sounds like someone who got bullied in school by kids like Jason
>>151100906I know shit about lanterns because I quickly realize DC is bad at world building and being consistent, but I'd love an AU mini leaning on the cosmic mistake angle where Jason ressurrection is tied to a lantern ring and become the first guy who make it into the star saphire corp. He starts a 14 yo amnesiac and even zombie like lantern until the lantern sort of heal up his injuries over time. Nobody realize what's going on or that he is from Earth. In fact, if I was a skilled writer I would let the reader in the dark for a bit while I focusing on establishing a star sapphire team and shenanigans.
>>151099039I guess, but hanging out with a bunch of capes is juvenile. I wanna see him become a man first and have some more life experience. I rather keep him as a “punisher clone” than a cookie cutter capefag that blends in to the background like the rest of the dorks
>>151093666The setting in new 52 was kino and the rebirth era had good characters, a shame how it all ended up.
>>151099285New 52 tried to bring back Phantasm but never did anything more with it.Last we saw of Phantasm in New Titans, it sacrificed itself to take out the evil Raven but some fans noted with how it had been "killed" before, the souls could theoretically come back together again. Wolfman tried to make Danny the Team Titans Leader back in the day as a way to work around his death but ultimately got vetoed.I'd personally wonder what it'd be like if someone took Weisman's Kaizer-Thrall deal with Danny but did it differently, and depending how much of Danny's past is still canon or not he's an obnoxious "ghost in the machine" or a little more mature but trollish. Don't really care for the character myself, but always wonder ways different ones could be reinvented...or Jason could just crowbar or shoot the box to vent his frustrations when he finds out what Wolfman's pet kid said and is saying. Could even have Danny still be a stand-in for Wolfman's obnoxiousness.
>>151103090Pre-Crisis Jason was also considered foppish and a "quiche eater" by some male fans that didn't like him, basically trying to insinuate he proved the Robin= makes Batman look gay stereotype.
At least the interview is good to shut down that one Winnickfag.>A: What's your favorite thing about Jason Todd as Robin?>JW: That he died! [lol] I'm being casual. Seriously. Jason Todd's death was so consequential for Batman. It changed him. He was hurt. He never recovered. And so, when Jason came back—and he came back evil—he basically became a villain. He broke Batman even more.>A: In UTH, Jason is on a killing spree: he's killing drug lords, rapists, and he's even killed Nazis. Was it refreshing to see this former Robin doing what many people think a guy like Batman should do if it weren't for the "no-kill" rule?>JW: No. That's just what Jason does. I believe in Batman's rule against killing. I think it's an important aspect of his character.>>151103913Haters gonne hate. He was extremely campy but his main if not only arc was Nocturna trying to adopt him because a boy need a mother and to get back at Bruce. Meanwhile, Dick was getting sexualized like a female character in Titans for a decade.
>>151104182Like I can read French, man.
>>151103913>Pre-Crisis Jason was also considered foppish and a "quiche eater" by some male fans that didn't like himNo, by one fan in a 1983 letter. Jason was hardly Jason at that point.What about the piles of letters after Robin’s death from crying children that Denny ignored because he believed the absolute worst thing DC could do is bring Jason back.
>>151104182Winick probably rolls in his money, rubbing it against his chest at how good it feels to scam the Jasonfags and throw them a bone every now and then but have fooled them so hard.
>>151104598Nah, there is no money in comics, which is why he jumped to children’s books. They’re perfect for fans of UTRH.
Dickfags wish they could get threads where they actually talked about him.
>>151103688Rebirth was better than new52 era, but rocafort is pretty good.
>>151097328>We already had Jason in Not-New Orleans,What was this?
>>151095198>give him a solo run as a noir style detective in gotham pdI'm honestly surprised this angle of his character doesn't get explored more, he's supposed to be the smartest one, the kid who figured out Batman's identity, to expand on your Idea, I'd love to see him as Detective whose a police consultant and when he needs to do anything illegal to acquire evidence, he uses a superhero persona
>>151105211The recent cancelled Red Hood series
>>151093666Would Jason and Damian get along or hate each other. If there's any Bat Family characters I could actually see him having good chemistry with it's either Damian or Cass.
>>151093666>can't have him kill any actual villains>don't want him separated from the Bat brand so he can't actually leave Gotham for good>constantly try to redesign him for the worse>can't even draw him consistently young in his 20sAll the Robins are fucked by status quo, honestly. But Jason is gimped by nature of being the black sheep they don't let roam free.>>151095534>>151095569Hush 2 is not canon to the New Earth continuity so this is irrelevant.
>>151104970It was a horrible comic that got hard-carried by the art.
>>151096829>I don't understand why there's so much pushback against the more Punisher directionBecause the usual suspects hate any gun toting vigilante.
>>151105568Yet another dumbass take from the pedophile defenders. Not surprising
>>151093666Because he is a dead-end character. He is either a version of Punisher who kills which instantly makes him a Batman villain, and Batman can't lose to a random at one time dead Robin, OR he is a reformed Punisher who doesn't kill stripping him of anything resembling a purpose and personality. Having him be some edgy "Batman should push the limits" shit talker makes zero sense when Bruce has organized campaigns to take down the Justice League while Todd was cleaning his guns. He is a relic of edgy 90's nonsense and short of making him either a permanent villain for Nightwing in Bludhaven or killing Slade and giving him that mantle, he is utterly pointless and redundant.
>>151105660He can't be Punisher as long as he remains in Gotham, but Jasonfags are obsessed with keeping him there for some retard reason.
>>151096829Vigilante is long dead and if DC ever brings him back it will be with his retarded tv show personality. If they don't wanna go for the Punisher angle at least should give him the Vigilante angle
>>151105660>short of... killing Slade and giving him that mantleyou have the worst ideas in the history of ideas, possibly even evermany people are saying it
>>151105747>He can't be Punisher as long as he remains in Gotham,He can't really be Punisher anywhere because it makes Bruce look like a fucking idiot. >Bruce? Yea. Either one of your villians, or one of your former wards is in _____ shooting people. You want to get on that?Maybe if he was Bludhaven and regulated to Nightwing like I said. Those two could play around with the former Robin dynamics. Jason can use the whole "I was always in your shadow" shit.
>>151105660>Because he is a dead-end character.>>151105833>you have the worst ideasYou should try understanding before replying.
>>151105842You’re the problem. You want Bruce to be a Gary Stu who can’t have any failures, you want Gotham overstuffed with Robins, you want Jason to be some effeminate rubber bullet using fag who’s jealous of Nightwing for some reason. Please fuck off to Marvel
>>151105933>You’re the problem.No editorial and writers with nostalgia brain rot, who don't respect continuity are the problem. Jason was a better character and plot device dead then alive. He should have never been resurrected. It took a lot away from Batman. He served as a fresh loss after Bruce's parents. Bruce loss his parents before being Batman and his head canon was that he could save them if given the chance after becoming Batman. Jason proved that even being Batman doesnt mean Bruce can save everyone. It also was a big reminder to anyone standing next to Bruce what the ride could be like. Dick looked even more heroic and bad ass for surviving as long as he did, and it set up drama for who would be "brave" enough to take up the mantle after Jason, and who Bruce felt sure enough about to pick. They killed all of that by bringing his faggt ass back to pop faggots who like that sort of shit and then also complain continuity is constantly being fucked with. This is why all the Robins feel off and pointless now. The funny thing is there is nothing to do. Killing another Robin now after Jasn came back wouldnt mean as much. tl;dr he only mattered dead
>>151104250Use google trad? It's what I did.
All they gotta do is make a Red Hood movie and game. Shit would sell.
>>151105271Idk how you'd come to this conclusion when one is a spoiled and entitled nepo baby who actively look down on him and the other is a silent more autistic Batman.
>>151105568> RH is not a gun-toting vigilante>>151105747>but JasonfagsThanks for confirming that the fags who push for "punisher RH" are not even his fans.
>>151105842>I was always in your shadowJfc, bat-cocsuckers are so cringe. It's not even true. None of the problems Jason has as Robin are tied to his predecessor. It's all on Gotham being a shithole and Bruce being a manchild.
>>151105602>>151106396Learn some reading comprehension, retards.
>>151106484>It's not even trueIt is if you bothered to read the actual run of Jason before he died and not just pretend you know the character because you watched "Under the Red Hood". Bruce likes Jason at first because he's headstrong, but then realizes that unlike Dick he can' be coached, and he points that out to Jason, who doesn't especially give a shit considering he is Robin now.
>>151106553>realizes that unlike Dick he can' be coachedSource? Because what happens in the comics is that Bruce coaches Jason about a lot of things until Jason decid to not break the fall of a rapist with a diplomatic immunity. I also made not mention of Bruce liking or not Jason, or vice versa. Not sure where that came from either.
>>151106671>>realizes that unlike Dick he can' be coached>Bruce coaches Jason about a lot of things>untilYou need to think before arguing. It's the important part to making a point for your side and not the other. Bruce also takes jason on because he has the balls to try to steal the wheels off the Batmobile. That is how we get to "he likes him being headstrong". Get this. I don't think Batman would take someone in and train them as Robin if they didn't like them especially he did so after they tried to rob his wheels. That's called context.
>>151106031Jason’s death stopped being meaningful when Cass joined the team.
>>151093666Make him a villain again.
>>151104598Winick doesn't get any royalties because he didn't create Jason Todd or Red Hood lmao. Gerry Conway is the one getting all that money, if anyone.>>151104659He left comics because his editor friends left first and no one else would give him work because Judd the Dud was notoriously one of the worst Big Two writers.
>>151106396Anon, people keep throwing solutions at you but you keep rejecting them because you want your gay "Jason x Nightwing in Gotham" to be true.
>>151095198they gave Batman a new Robin while at the same time forcing Tim into a Dick mold and ruin in any unique aspects he had.People forget the "Tim Wayne" stuff and Damian Wayne introduction were both OYL.
>>151108583Remember, Damian was originally supposed to die in that intro arc. The Beechen/Robinson OYL direction was supposed to be the new future for Batman and Robin. It wasn't till Morrison decided to keep him around, and chose to do the Batman II and Robin II throwback story, that Tim Wayne became a problem. You can see the change in the writing in 2007/2008.
>>151108698introducing the literal blood son of Batman to kill him off was never going to be a clean break, it's amazing to think they thought they could do that without fans asking when he'd come back. Denis O'Neil even had an interior rule to never bring up Son of the Demon for that reason.
>>151093666Writers are horrible and they listen to the most retarded part of the fan base. Jason's best look was his outfit in Knight but DC puts him in stupid shit with capes and that god awful full body armor shit. They can't balance him because of Bruce's no kill rule but can't compartmentalize him or the rest of the Batfam within their own strengths.So he gets relegated to shipping wars and gay porn.
>>151108778this looks retarded, hoodies are for hood trash.
>>151108778>Jason's best look was when he was wearing an H&M jacket >arguing ideas based on fashion sense>guy who shoots guns and has no super powers is more realistic having a jacket and not body armorYou're a preteen
>>151108829Not a fan of the hoodie, but I do like the grey and red with the red helmet. Give him a biker jacket and a bike and he’s good. I also feel like he’s missing a melee weapon aside from his guns, like a pair of ninja Sais
>>151094171I dunno why the Red Robin thing didn't stick, it was a decently well received book and I never saw anyone complain about it other than Red Robin itself being a bit of a lame name>>151093666Jason should've retired from vigilantism after that Red Hood story and become a cop under Gordon's watch
>>151108917>reject Batman brand of vigilantism>side with someone with less power, resources and an ever bigger no kill rule
>>151093666I liked when he was hanging out with Bizarro and Artemis
>>151109245The point is to get away from vigilantism where he's been fucked up
>>151109309Make him Deathstroke’s partner
>>151093666I mean, it's not just Jason.They've never had a clue what to do with Bruce.They've never had a clue what to do with Dick.They've never had a clue what to do with Tim.They've never had a clue what to do with Damian.They've never had a clue what to do with Barbara.They've never had a clue what to do with Steph.They've never had a clue what to do with Cass.They've never had a clue what to do with Luke.They've never had a clue what to do with Duke.Have these characters had good runs or moments? Yes, of course. But for the most part, it's always DC just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. The biggest issue is that these characters always have to be less than Bruce and are never allowed to really outgrow him. Let Jason be an anti-villian or even a villian. Let Tim retire and go work at WayneTech. They don't always have to be the focus or "Muh Batman!" type shit they all get saddled with.
>you know that child who got beaten and then murdered by the Joker>LET'S MAKE HIM INTO THE BAD GUYYou guys are as stupid as Judd Winick.
>>151109856>Tim DrakeLet him become a PI in Gotham. his whole persona is "omg he's smart! he's such a detective!". So is Bruce. Have Tim do street level shit that falls through the cracks for Bruce. He can occasionally show up as an info source. Turn his comic into legit mystery/detective noir stories. Incredibly hard to write so good luck with that. >DickThey fucked up Dick when they made him Rick. But he should just be juxtaposed as the anti-Batman. If anyone in the Bat family should be touring the world or going off planet it's him. He knows so many people and is beloved in the DCU. >DamienThere's no other place but to have him as Bruce's ward. Either that or he goes off by himself to "find himself " and decide if he wants his dad's mantle or something else.>JasonHe has to go back to the grave. He serves no purpose alive. If he becomes a villian he has to shoot to the top tiers because he knows Bruce and how he works. That's just not what anyone wants to see, though. Let him be a fucked up suit in the Batcave again. >BarbaraIntel for Batman. With Alfred dead she should fill his role. She anchors Bruce and helps run the cave and keep him alive.The rest to me don't matter. They're either redundant or not worth focusing on. It's time Batman's group got smaller and tighter instead of this fucking bloated group he has.
>>151098190Bludhaven is in lore the worst city in America but they need to do more work making it actually seem worse
>>151110202>Bludhaven is in lore the worst city in America but they need to do more work making it actually seem worse>Bludhaven is superbad>Batman doesn't go thereThis doesnt help. I mean in once instance it sort of explains WHY Bludhaven would be so bad, but it does so by making Batman seemed scared of it, which fails.
>>151109309>join the forces where he's going to be even more fucked>he will see how corrupt they are>if he tries to change something Gordon will try to arrest him
>>151110202They made it into a gentrified Atlantic City, which is infinitely more depressing than a violent city.
>>151110202No it's not, it's just worse than Gotham. It's the Newark to Gotham's New York.It's not like it's Hub City.And between the Rebirth era casino projects and the Infinite Frontier era waterfront gentrification, Bludhaven is actually not that bad anymore. I doubt Watters is going to send Nightwing back to the Zee Moores.
>>151110703>It's not like it's Hub City.Guys, it's not 1986 anymore.
>>151110732>1986Try reading more comics? Maybe some from this decade?
>>151093666It's because you can't accept that the answer to the question:What to do with Jason?...is KILL that piece of shit.
>>151110148>Let him become a PI in Gotham.This. I like the idea of Tim being the ‘Daredevil’ of Gotham, in the sense that he’s their legal connection. Plus it would also ground the family by giving someone a regular job>Turn his comic into legit mystery/detective noir stories.Also this, with some occasional pulp for added flavor. Give him supernatural cases to test his detective skills, like malignant spirits, cultists (preferably of the goth babe variety) ghouls, Kira type niggas. And add some Japanese horror because it fits the late-nite loner aesthetic. Would be cool
>>151110932So the big idea for Tim Drake is to turn him into Jason Bard? I didn't realize how bad it had gotten...
Why not make Jason and Tim both private detectives? Jason is streetwise with a heart of gold to Tim the skeptical, by the books professional, and they both temper each other?
>>151111010I like the one idea that anon proposed eons ago on /co/. Bruce comes to Tim and asks him to do the same thing he did with Dick, but slightly different: instead of Spyral, he has Tim infilitrate villain organizations and the such under the moniker Red X (since he can't be Red Robin, the Robin is striked out!). So he goes to these different villain type deals and collapses them from the inside out. The anons other idea that he finally retires, goes to college, and works under Lucious and eventually taking over for him, marrying Tam, and keeps the Batfamily outfitted the tech a secret.
>>151111216This would be a fun ongoing or even just a mini
>>151110919Jason is too popular to kill off. He's one of the few characters that appeals to normal people and not just nerds. The amount of discussion and fan created content he generates even today is insane, far more than supposed "A" list characters.
>>151097344outlaws being a counter to the titans would be cook
>>151098452Jason makes a nice 'guy who was pushed into leadership role and doesn't want it' spot, especially when his team is made of fuck ups / zombies.
>>151111216I feel like half the batfam are more interesting when they shed their capes and take on a new role for a while. didn't people like dick being a spy?
>>151109653>Make him Deathstroke’s son-in-law.FTFY
>>151111741Slade will only accept Dick as his son in law.
>>151111659It helps because Bruce and friends are actually interesting characters beyond the masks. The early 90s spent a lot of time on the human element of the Batfam, which was cool. Stuff like Mask and Trinity. Then you have shit like UTRH where Joker is now the center point of Bruce and Jason’s relationship, and Knightfight where it’s just BATMAN FIGHTS RECOLORED BATMAN?!
>>151093666Every time I see this image it makes it look like he's wearing red trunks with a comically large bulge.
>>151095729I want him to kill sparingly, if he has no other choice, but it is important that he does cross that line since that is the only thing that differentiates him from the other Robins. It is a shame his book got cancelled because that troon had it right; have him operate outside of Gotham so that he doesnt cuck Batman and give him Huntress as his side bitch like Nightwing has Oracle
>>151109856>BruceBatman duh>DickNightwing>TimRobin>DamianKill that prick>BarbaraOracle>CassBatgirl>StephWho>LukeNo seriously, who?>DukeAre you just making up names?
>>151098809What a bitch
>>151097672Batman has the most glorious collection of villains in all of comics. How do you think he managed that, by killing them off or letting nobodies like Jason kill them instead?
>>151111216>a crime happens>Jason gives an over the top, nonsensical explanation as to why and how this happened >"Jason, you never finished high school. Shut the fuck up.">Tim uses the power of atheist magic to disprove Jason's theory>turns out Jason's crackpot theory was rightWe can literally do this
>>151110932Thank you. I like the supernatural vibe too. To put it another way, if Batman dealt with "The Cult" Tim's comic would be where it got introduced. Have him dealing with missing person's cases that lead him down dark places and explain why they remain missing. Gotham is filled with crazy villians. Have Tim dealing with the gangs those villians form. The people that recruited by that. The guys that are capo's or killers or muscle and street level warlords for the big guys. Tim could use the fact he isn't in the Bta family, doesn't have a big suit tha attracts attention, to make inroads where those people can't, explaining why Batman or Nightwing haven't been able to make headway etc.
>>151097056>>151097226I think the thing that solidified the "Frank is irrationally crazy and will kill any and all criminals" is the bit in Civil War where two c list supervillains meet up with Cap's group requesting to join up because they have a shared enemy and don't want to get Tony Stark's mind controlling probes in their head and Frank immediately executes them on the spot before Cap can even say anything to them.
>>151096829Why not pull a Dark Judges and give Jason antagonists with powers that mean they can't be killed/very hard to kill/come back if killed?
>>151104308>What about the piles of letters after Robin’s death from crying children that Denny ignored because he believed the absolute worst thing DC could do is bring Jason back.I find it hard to believe Denny that Jason was despised because he literally states that the readers were neutral to Jason. It's obvious that Starlin getting control and doing everything he could to get rid of Jason was enough to set Batman's more autistic readers off.However, we can't say that Jason's character assassination was an intentional effort by the editors and Starlin because Starlin would have confirmed it by now. It's clear that O'Neil saw it as his chance to finally get rid of Robin.
Anons are losing their shit over whether Jason should be Punisher or Edgy Nightwing or whatever, while Jason fans on social media are just having the time of their lives with Fatson Todd
>>151112876Isn't Jason popular in North Africa and East Asia for some reason?
>>151111010no one has ever given a flying fuck about Jason Bard though. It's a ok to take concepts from less popular characters and give them to more popular ones.
>>151112890So decided to look into it and Shawn Martinbrough went to Tunisia for an event and yeah, Jason Todd does in fact have fans in North Africa. Specifically qt muslimahs.
>>151093666The real question is, why hasn't DC had these two team up yet? A book headlined by Jay and Tim is infinitely more interesting than having to pretend that Dick and Cass are in any way interesting.
>>151106070Nah, I don’t trust Google, it’s not that accurate and can mess up the meaning. Anyway, I’m kinda over the whole Winick debate. No matter who’s right, DC’s gonna mess it up anyway, so no point arguing about it.
There will never be enough Red Hood and Red Robin art in this world.>>151113020>Nah, I don’t trust Google, it’s not that accurate and can mess up the meaning.What do you mean it would mess up the meaning, Judd Winick has always been open about not giving a fuck about Jason Todd. For fuck sake's the man literally wrote UTRH in the first place because he was too dumb to realize the whole of Fake Jason was to get into Bruce's head, it was a distortion. And what does he do? He decides that's who Jason Todd actaully is, disregards Jason's time as Robin, and effectively throws out a decade of drama. This is the same guy who blamed Jason getting murdered on Jason for being emotional, as if nobody was emotional when they were teenagers.
>>151113071Believe whatever you want, man. I’m done with DC.
>>151112890I don't know about Africa, but Chinks and flips fucking love Jason. Gooks are close behind, they even made a full themed cafe for his birthday
>>151113017Because DC is allergic to good ideas.
>>151112700My pet idea for Jason is lean on the mythical powers he got in RHATO and turn him into a "magic Batman". Have him travel all around the world slaying demons and magical creatures, that way he can go nuts killing villains without stepping on Batman's toes and writers can brought them back if they need recurring villains. That way Jason could get drafted into the JLD and become the heavy hitter of the group, plus, I bet him and Constantine teaming up would be really entertaining.
What if the last twenty years of Jason's bad luck was Bat-Mite trying to salvage Jason's character behind the scenes but fucking up because Bat-Mite can't write for shit?
>>151113917Rocafort sucked. Dude was also responsible for that terrible MK mask.
>>151111759>Slade will only accept Dick as his son in law.His opinion doesn’t matter
>>151097344Mite be cool.
>>151093666Because Bat editorial are retarded and must keep their characters within reach if they ever feel like using them (even if they don’t touch them for 5 to 10 years). They really need to let Dexter S o y do his Red Ronin ‘What If’ he was pitching a decade ago.
>>151112948this is fucking hilarious
>>151093666>poster boy of everything horrible that can happen to a side-kick>veers from anti-villain to anti-hero constantly, a sign of his mental instability>has friends that care for him but know he gets into strange moods sometimes>knows the cyclical and pointless nature of crimefighting but has nothing else left in his lifewhy not just do this?
>>151114950It's interesting how many artists and writers become Jason fans after working with him on something
>>151095198Red Robin was cancelled by Flashpoint and Tim never recovered. He's been in the dumpster since Lobdell's Teen Titans. Making him gay was probably a misguided attempt to differentiate him from the other Robins, but it was proposed and executed by a deranged fujo.
You know, if you change the retarded half-mask for the helmet and drop the Liefield body armor, this costume would look good.
>>151111292Red X is a Titans thing. Tim needs to stop stealing Dick's shit.
>>151115402you can't make being a fag cool
Here's my token bad idea, Bruce should've taken down Joker with himself in a double suicide with Jason becoming Batman from then onwards
>>151115488Dick steals from Tim all the time. But then again he kind of has to because Dick is so boring.
>>151096894>Put him back to the 2000s standard. Let him be the villain.Why's he gotta be a villain? Because he kills dudes? Action heroes killed dudes all the time and people loved it.
>>151115568What, exactly?
>>151098452Harvey and Jason are more similar than people realize.
>>151115603harvey and joker had one bad dayjason had a horrible life
>>151115598Most adaptations that feature Dick as Robin give him Tim's costume, weapons, and personality but the most egregious example of Dick stealing shit from Tim was having him being the Robin in the YJ show instead of Tim. Dick's fanboys will bitch and moan about Jason being friends with Roy and Starfire because they "belong" to Dick but they don't seem to have a problem with Dick stealing Tim's best friend and the team he established.
>>151115535It's pretty easy, actually. They're just bad at it. Nobody cares what you think since you're obviously a psychotic faggot who isn't going to give them money for anything anyway.
>>151115668Ah yes, because Harvey is famous for having a perfect life and not an abusive father or anything like that.
>>151115760Yeah, xanatos gambit man can eat shit for that.>we're young justice! you know, bart allen, kon-el and...dick grayson!
>>151115542Bruce should've stayed dead with Dickbats being permanent as it is
>>151115779cope and seethe
>>151093666>Batman fine with it: makes him look okay with killing people>Batman not fine with it: makes him look like a ninny for not being able to stop JasonHe hurts the Bat Brand
>>151115868Fuck what it makes Batman look like. You niggers protect Batman’s reputation more than republicans defend pedophiles. Batman is stupid for not killing, and Red Hood is a reminder of that
>>151093666He needs to die or be a villain again
>>151093878this
>>151093878That question was answered decades ago by Alan Moore in The Killing Joke: Batman is just as insane as the Joker and refuses to kill him because he's addicted to their game. Of course DC wouldn't ever make this detail canon, so we have to endure the shitty "if i kill i once, i'm afraid i won't stop", which is just saying Batman isn't really crazy yet but is close to
>>151116513So that’s not canon but we still got stuck with Barbara being a vegetable
Jason's only good moment as Red Hood was in Morrison's B&R.
>>151113229Huh. Neat.`
>>151093878Batman is not obligated to kill dumbass. It’s not his responsibility, that belongs to the state.
>>151116513Saying Batman is addicted to the cat and mouse game with Joker is stupid. Deconstructing bollocks meant for shock value. It is what gave rise to the "love affair" idea that was prevalent in Morrison's and Snyder's sagasImplying that he is so fucking nuts that he will go full Punisher if he ever tastes blood is a much more realistic approach. Moench did it in the 90s with his elseworlds stuff and pretty much every single alternate reality evil Batman since then has started down the path this way. A Batman who desperately hangs on to his sanity by sacrificing innocents to homicidal maniacs in order to prevent something even worse befalling his city adds depth to the character and justifies him having an awesome rogues gallery
Gangsters decapitated heads in a gym bag
Think about it, Jason selfcest
>>151115760I'm sorry, I thought we were talking comic books.I assumed no one would start talking cartoons, because Tim Drake has literally never been adapted in animated form, not once.
>>151115783Is Harvey Duela's dad now, or is she still from an alternate earth?
>>151112876Jason is popular despite DC and I'm glad that they aren't profiting from his popularity because they don't deserve it.
>>151118721He’s got as a woman damn>>151119352This one
>>151093666They can't
Making Jason into a killer was stupid, and the fans who want him that way are stupid.
>>151115535Oh yes you can
>>151120912You're right, he should have just stayed dead.
>>151120994Nah.
Red Hood is a Joker identity, giving it to Robin is always doomed to failure because it's cursed.
>>151093666What's happening with that book that got cancelled? Are they just waiting for the controversy to die down, getting a new writer, or letting the idea die.
>>151117137That approach only works if the rogues aren't a bunch of sadistic psychopaths. Batman killing villains won't make him worse than the Joker. The Moore approach is the only thing it makes sense with modern Batman
>>151121219>What's happening with that book that got cancelled?It gor cancelled man, that's it.
>>151122511The reason it got cancelled was so weird
>>151093917Or Damian. Or Dick.
>>151123983Nobody wanted it because of the writer, and his gloating after that dude got murdered was the firepower they needed to fire his ass and cancel the book.
>>151124720Not true at all for Dick. His Nightwing ongoing has been stable since Death Metal. They made him the star of a major event. He's featured more as Robin in the last 5 years than he had in the full 30 years before that. Titans is the only weak link.
>>151125186Anon, Dick hasn’t had a good run yet.
>>151118993Alternate Earth Duela hasn't been referenced in a while, but OG Duela got acknowledged in a Titans book.And it seemed like they were going to reveal modern Duela was indeed Harvey's daughter, but they didn't.And then they revealed Two-Face (not Harvey) had a daughter.
>>151115760Peak ProjectionTim Drake in the DCAU is literally Jason Todd. Tim isn't even a character. He's just a design. He's empty.
>>151124951Makes you wonder why DC hired him, he took the effort to make himself hated from the moment he got announced. How hard is to shut up or at least pretend in public you care about the character? Was it autism?
>>151126329>Makes you wonder why DC hired him, he took the effort to make himself hated from the moment he got announced.I legit think it was one of the tranny editors who vouched for him. So the other editors took a chance and it fucking backfired.
>>151125925>Tim Drake in the DCAU is literally Jason Todd.DCAU Tim Drake was definitely Max Allen Collins/Mike Barr Jason Todd.Terry McGinnis was basically Jason Todd circa '88 had they kept him and refined his edge.
>>151126425Jason Todd became edgy and was killed off because DC at the time wanted to kill off the concept of Robin itself not just Jason. It's funny how modern Robin adaptions are just Dick or Jason.
Nobody would have liked look at this epic hacker kid. It makes sense they only adapt the first two
>>151126598>It's funny how modern Robin adaptions are just Dick or Jason.Damien had a lot of pushes during 10s
>>151126668And it was during the peak soulless era of DCU animation.
>>151126668>Damien had a lot of pushes during 10swhen nobody watched that shit anymore. The only movie people remember is Under the Red Hood and as for the rest of the movies they're only known for the jobber green lantern memes
I would take Damien Wayne over Tim Drake any day.
>>151127104On opposite day. Little shit ruined the dynamics of Batman. Denny O'Neil was right about Batman not having biological children.
>>151127125Keep Damian solo, pair Batman with Tim. That’s how it should’ve been.
>>151127125Normie kid with no other characteristics other than le smart kid ruined the dynamics of batman
>>151127409>ruined the dynamics of batmanNani, the peak of Batman happened when Tim was Robin.
>>151127433>the peak of Batman happened when Tim was Robin.If that was the case they would have put actual Tim Drake in the DCAU.
>>151127478Much like the comics, the peak was over by 1993, and then truly over by 1997 when Tim Todd was added.
>>151127557>the 90s was le peak of batman and Yim Drake>1993Lmao keep pushing it back until you admit Tim sucked
What killed batman was the bat family an incredibly stupid concept. They should have just done the same thing and Kid Flash and Flash where Wally West replaced Barry Allen. You could avoid this dumb clusterfuck they have now.
>>151127578>>the 90s was le peak of batman and Yim DrakeYes. A comic from 1992 featuring Tim is infinitely better than a comic from 2009 featuring Damian.
>>151127654>What killed batman was the bat family an incredibly stupid concept.There are more years where Batman had a family to support him then there are years where Batman was solo.
>>151127743>There are more years where Batman had a family to support him then there are years where Batman was solo.Robin & batgirl don't count. There's a reason why all adaptions have one robin usually dick and barbara as batgirl
>>151127897Robin counts.
>>151127907No he doesnt. The dynamic DUO has nothing to do with the bat family
>>151127920Anon, Robin is a part of Batman’s family. He’s a core part as much as Alfred.
>>151128093They were the dynamic duoBatfamily is a later developmentYou can keep pretending to be obtuse though
They’re a family, you cocksucking troon.
>>151093666>Why is it that DC can't figure out what to do with the Batfamily?fixed
>>151127104Tim Drake has always been lame. He's not distinct enough to be the Donatello of the Robins.
>>151128240What kind of loser categorizes the Robins like they’re the TMNT. Who are you,Tom King?
>>151127433The peak of Batman comics was the Outsiders in the 80's. Fuck your bat family. You call Tim peak when his appearance was preceded by depressed Batman and a shitty Two Face story. Tim Drake's best issues didn't even involve Batman as the lead and even then, Huntress and Spoiler had to hard carry him. Go read Knightfall pt, his most well known portrayal, and tell me how cool Tim is faggot.
>pre-Crisis Lmao who gives a shit
>>151128367Why would I want to read a shitty event like Knightfall when I can just read Tim’s superior Robin run?
>>151128311That's what DC has tried since New 52 because they can't let them be their own characters either. Jason alone should be independent from Batman but they keep him stuck to him despite having them constantly fight.
>>151093666True JasonFAG here.I don't really have any expectations or strong opinions on where they should take him.I just want more Jason.
>>151128842You should want quality over quantity. Does anyone even remember anything of note from Jason in the White Knight universe?
>>151128942>You should want quality over quantityWhite Knight had literally neither though? It had like 2 issues?
>>151129368Anon... It has like 5 books.
>>151128311>>151128521What's so bad about using the TMNT approach with the Robins on team-up books? Is better than having them fight Jason for retarded reasons over and over
>>151093666Make him evil or something.
>>151129675It's bad because they don't commit to it. They don't actually work together in a sensible way. It's like a diet TMNT dynamic with the character dynamics that make that work. Damian's too serious to be the Mikey. Jason butts heads with everyone & has no reason to work with any of them. Tim, again, isn't enough of the tech guy or distinctly smart enough to be the Donatello. Dick isn't serious enough be Leo or trying to really rally them together as a leader. Most of the time he's getting his whole character rewritten or being pushed onto other teams or areas. What makes the TMNT dynamic work is they're brothers who live together. Something the Robins don't have either.
>>151129710The Robins don't really work together naturally as a team without Batman directing traffic. They were all trained to be omni-competent generalists like Batman, but teams are better with specialization and distinct roles.
>>151093666Because he was a Robin who did not click with the audience and they killed him. Then through comic book bullshittery, they resurrected him and now they don't know what to do with the character they killed off because he didn't work.As it turns out, when you kill off a character because they didn't work, then bring them back under the assumption that everything appreciates in value when left alone long enough, they still don't work.
>>151129710Why wouldn't Jason work with them? The past decade has been focused on him mellowing out and building a connection with his brothers, and by TMNT-fication what happens is that writers focused on specific traits of them that, in turn, are traits from Bruce himself, not that they literally become the turtles.Is also really strange that you say that they don't have that brotherly bond when Dick and Tim have had literal decades building one. Damian mellowed out when he teamed up with Dick, and as I mentioned before, the N52 was all about letting Jason build one
>>151106829>source; my assThe "until" and what come after that is exactly what I'm arguing about since it's pure headcanon and reaching. Maybe you should follow your own advices.
>>151107478>punisherfag projects their shipfaggotry on otherYou've got the wrong anon, retard.
>>151129675TMNT are basically one-note characters made to fit a formula. That works for them, but forcing the Robins into that kind of setup just takes away what makes them unique. Each Robin was written to contrast Batman in a different way, not to fill some team archetype. Turning them into the TMNT of Gotham would make them feel generic as hell.
>>151110919>Death is effective/matters at DCThat wouldn't even work with a less popular character.>>151111216Pass. This sound very performative. Tim also proved he is a black-hole sue so I'd rather have no book than read about him to see a flanderized version of Jason.
>>151129807>Because he was a Robin who did not click with the audience and they killed himKilling off Robin was editorial decision. Also the writer was pushing for it since he hated the concept of Robin.
>>151115783Harvey Dent is famous for the story where he becames Two-Face and as bad as his life can be, it's bad for different reason. Plus, as far as Jason is concerned, Harvey Dent played a part in his father's death. There a dialogue waiting to be written between these two but I personally wouldn't make it about comparing who had it better or worst.
>>151119352This.>>151128311>What kind of loserDC and Batfamfags. It's formulaic enough that it require minimal skills and the less you know about the characters the better it works for you.
Why not just keep Jason as an Outsiders member with Bruce keeping tabs on him there from a distance? Batman being in the Outsiders so often always felt weird because Katana or whatever would casually kill enemies and Bruce would just be "hey that's cool" instead of his usual sperging out, Jason fits them better no?Meanwhile Tim should be sent to the future to become a Legion member. Maybe send Steph with him as well. There's no place for them in the current timeline.
>>151128311>What kind of loser categorizes the Robins like they’re the TMNT>Tom King>James Tynion IV>Tim Seeley>Tim Seeley Again>Joshua Williamson>Joshua Williamson Again>Mark Waid, kinda.>Joshua Williamson A Third Fucking TimeMore than you'd think.
>>151131209Terrible take, you probably like Dick and Cass as well.
>>151128311Because they are. Ones a smart guy with a bow staff, ones a crash out that uses red, one is deadly serious and uses a sword, and then there’s the fun loving Nightwing
>>151131298Indifferent to Cass, Dick is objectively ok
>>151131374>the fun loving NightwingThis is where we all call you a wayne family adventures casual twitter/tumblr/reddit faggot
>>151131209The five Legion fans that still exist generally don't like non-Legion characters coming in and overshadowing Legion ones
>>151131209Who do you fags get filtered so hard by Tim and Steph?
>>151131424I haven’t read any of those, but in what world do you have 4 super ninjas, trained by Batman, and not make them a team? And instead just have them wander around Gotham being useless
>>151131459>and not make them a team? And instead just have them wander around Gotham being uselessAssign them to different areas of Gotham to patrol and have them specialize in investigating different crimes
>>151131565Yeah…I think I’ll skip that book and just read tmnt instead
>>151131621Please, stick to your slop.
>>151131459In a world where you are familiar with the characters beyond "they are/were Robin"; > too much redundancy/overlaps between them for or to justify a team-up > their history is the opposite of "we're a close-knit brotherhood with our sensei and we perfectly works together when we try" Forcing a TMNT-tier dynamic is like trying to fit a bunch of square pegs into round holes.
>>151131374This reads like a dumb sitcom
>>151131846it is one
>>151129827If you had to really slot the guys into any kind of pre-existing character types, Jason would be a more of a Phoenix Ikki than one of the turtles. Shows up to work with the others or bail them out if he feels like it, otherwise he's not reachable or trying to do his lone wolf thing. Where it falls apart is when you'd have the Seiya fangirls trying to shoehorn someone into being Shun and it being Tim for being the gay one so scratch that.
>>151113389Based, or they could import Larry the Titan into the comics and have him be Bat-Mite's equally pesky sidekick who likes trolling the different Robins in such ways.
>>151131718No obviously you don’t make them 1 to 1 copies of the tmnt, but they should get specialized roles so they’re have some individuality. >Red Hood can be the heavy gunner guy with criminal underworld connections, that sometimes challenges Nightwing’s leadership>Tim DrakeCan be their Oracle. Does all the investigative homework on missions and intel, and is the emotional glue that holds the team together>DamianIs their recon runner, he’s the best at stealth, and usually sides with Red Hood on how to deal with really bad targets>NightwingIs the leader with the double responsibility of leading an elite team, and being a good big brother to his foster siblings>Spoiler & BatgirlHelp out when the group needs back up, or a bail out I think it’d help flesh out the other robins
Dick has successfully become his own character but is also a bit bland at timesJason needs somewhere to go that isn't too far away from the Batfamily stuff or folks will have an aneurysm for some reason Why not make Jason the antihero Punisher guy most of his fans want him to be but base him in Bludhaven instead of the very overcrowded Gotham then?
>>151132209But Jason nuked Bludhaven!!!- the media illiterate type of Jason anti and what they really believe
>>151132209He is sometimes based in Bludhaven, doesn't get used for stories much though
>>151132176>Tim Drake>Can be their OracleJust use Babs then.>the emotional glue that holds the team togetherJust use Steph or give her traits to Babs like most modern adaptations already do. Being the Heart always works best with female characters unless they're little kids.There's no reason to autistically limit the squad to be exactly like the TMNT. Throw in a girl or 2 to balance it out. Doesn't need to be a quad squad either.
>>151132176>obviously you don’t make them 1 to 1 copies Except it's what people meant and how that genius idea translated into official comics so far.> Damian is best at stealth> Dick is a good bro> Jason has underworld connections> Jason is the tank> Jason wanting leadership rather than fucking off solo if Dick piss him off> Tim not being an autist> Tim being the glue> An Oracle role being relevant in the year of 2025This is fanfic-tier that already reads like a bunch of cliches. You're just trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
>>151132473>Just use Steph or give her traits to Babs like most modern adaptations already doThey never turned Babs into a dumb blonde white trash whore who got teen pregnant
>>151132209>most of his fans> most of his fans wants Jason to be a Nightwing antagonist/villainDickfags should just write yaoi fanfics on ao3 and stop larping.
>>151132596If it was up to me, I'd have Jason be the Robin she meets and it's him who knocks her up. Making Robin a teen dad would be ballsy. Then bro dies and Bruce helps her out because of course he does. Making the 3rd Robin a teen mom is also ballsy. Then Under the Red Hood happens but now Jason and Steph's kid is in the mix.
>>151132692Don't you have a batgirl thread to necro bump?
>>151132585Yes it’s literally fanfiction because the actual characters suck and have been written into dead ends
>>151132692She could get into an awkward meeting with Rena later too.
>>151131999That sounds like a fun dynamic to use in team-ups
>>151132842Not an excuse to write them into another dead end. Retards throwing shits at a wall for the sole purpose of generating more of that generic slop content is why it started to sucks.
>>151134397>Not an excuse to write them into another dead endBro, fuck the comics. The aim is the outside media. The shit that actually sells and people clamor for.
I’ve said it before and imma say it again in hopes someone from DC will steal the idea and use it. Jason Todd becomes The Joker. 12 issue series of story that has Jason Todd having some sort of mental break due to comic book ass pull shit from being resurrected and all that. He snaps and kills joker, joker is actually dead and stays dead. Jason becomes new joker. You scale back on how much joker kills, explains why Batman just absolutely refuses to kill Joker or let people kill him. You make it Batman’s greatest failure again, everyone wins. Red Hood fags can have tragic new joker twist and evolve into joker fags. People like me who hate Red Hood will be satisfied he’s not part of Batfam any more. Everyone else will think it’s the most brilliant thing ever. Give me my medal and 2 hours alone with Floance Pugh please. Oh and fuck you and fuck Red Hood.
>>151114950What was the pitch?
>>151134656>People like me who hate Red Hood will be satisfied he’s not part of Batfam any more.People like you are an extreme minority. Casuals think Red Hood's cool. Turning him into the Joker is bad for business. The world doesn't revolve around you, sperg.
>>151134745>world doesn’t revolve around you spergWell it should because red hood is fucking gay.
>>151134734Also any recommended Red Hood reading? He seems cool.
>>151134656>>151134763That was pretty gay.
>>151093666>Bring character back that should have never come back for a stunt>initial stunt story is a meta spotlight on bad writing for years highlighting authors poor writing when it comes to the subject of the no kill rule>any time he reappears it just shines another spotlight on said bad writingBatman writers should not be using the no kill rule as an excuse to write insane stories that sound like shitpost threads about the intricacies of the Death Note or Lord of the Rings or some shit where everyone tries to find a bunch of funny loopholes and stuff like that.
