>>151314258
That would be Frank Miller.

>>151314258
That would be Steve Ditko

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Even his Image peers make fun of him

>>151314258
Nowadays it's Garth Ennis

>>151314324
Does Badrock even bleed, he's stone

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>>151314258
>>151314314
>>151314322
I agree with all three, the hate feels like a psyop by Marvel to diminish the power of creator ownership by ad-homeneim attacks.

>>151314322
no one actually hates ditko for his work on marvel, people tend to quite like ditko-lee era works
people dont like that he got radicalized into an objectivist down the line and used mr A as a mouthpiece fo his philosophy, which is a reasonable thing to dislike

quite a few people still side with ditko over stan to this day regarding his departure from marvel

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>>151314258

Liefeld achieved a level of pop culture prominence and mainstream recognition that nearly no comic artist could ever dream of.
Sure Jack Kirby is iconic and will be remembered forever, but at his peak he wasn’t getting Levi’s jeans commercials and late night talk show interviews.

Liefeld also succeeded at an unprecedented young age. So many of the readers at the time were in his generation and saw this punk succeed in their dream job and took his success personally.

He definitely doesn’t deserve the hate and I think he’s honestly chill and humble for the most part. But he was the 1990’s comic book equivalent of pewdiepie

>>151314258
couldn't you find a photo of him taken in the last 40 years

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>>151315031
>mr A as a mouthpiece
Grrrr he wrote and drew other comics. People forget about that or only know about Mr. A, The Question, Spider-Man, and Dr. Strange because the dumb youtuber they watched said so

>>151315711
>Grrrr he wrote and drew other comics
did you read the rest of the post?
mr A is the main thing people dislike about ditko, because it encapsulates his later obsession with anyn rand
but, by and large, people do not dislike ditko as a whole and even take his side over stan lee at times

>>151314258
Man, Bendis lost some serious weight.

>>151314258
>created Image
deserves every bit of hate he gets

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>>151315721

>>151315720
No, I'm angry that everyone concentrates on Mr. A and don't care about his other works. I wasn't really arguing against your post anon
>later
More like early. Supposedly he dropped it but still believed in a similar but different ideology

>>151315721
He looks like an old chihuahua with cancer nowadays

>>151314258
He's hated because he's one of the very few comic creators whose notable even among non-comic fans along with Miller and Moore (Penders if you're a Sonic fan) when it comes to discourse for media as a whole.
Liefeld is the poster boy for bad anatomy in comics but being the poster boy doesn't mean he's the absolute pinnacle and there have been multiple moments where people credit someone else's art as his'

>>151314258
>no, dont make me hit deadlines! I'm too busy not drawing backgrounds or hands!

>>151314258
He also rose in prominence during the time when artists were starting to be given a lot of creative control over books (perhaps rightly so, considering they drove sales), but it was pissing writers off and creating sloppy narratives because editors were bending over backwards to let the soon-to-be Image founders steer books in whatever direction they wanted. It was becoming all style, no substance, when they could have realistically had it both ways. Jim Lee basically forced Claremont to retire from his 17 year X-Men run.

>>151314258
Let's be real, he brought a lot of that hate on himself.

>>151314258
The biggest turd in comics.

Besides listening to almost every podcast episode, i've followed his twitter closely for years, his beefs, his complaints, his hypocrisy, his insecurity, the way he tries to endorse popular young artists only to turn on them, the way he went nuclear on the x-office for years for cutting Major X short. My point is through this, i've seen that there's two schools of Rob hate. One not warranted, one sort of warranted.
1. Hurr durr where's the feet? Erm is that Rob Liefeld? lol (While getting it wrong, it'll be like Balent or something) The meme casuals who try to goof on his art. Usually Gen X who have been doing it for decades, and younger audiences trying to fit in. This is corny, tired and unwarranted.
2. The people that see that he's so endlessly vitriolic online, a big baby, and think he's an asshole for that. This is somewhat warranted.

>>151314996
Fag

>>151315810
>he's one of the very few comic creators whose notable even among non-comic fans along with Miller and Moore
Hell no.

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>>151314258
>most unfairly hated

>>151317066
This is accurate. His online persona is what turned me off of Liefeld more than any qualms with his art style.

>>151314258
Rob Liefeld, the Greg Land of comicbooks.

>>151314258
Matt Damon?

Liefeld was good because he was anti-establishment at the time.
Kids and revisionists really don't understand the terrible state of the comics industry's creativity from the 80s until the movies started popping off in the early 00s.
He was one of the few people actually attempting to give the market what they wanted.

>>151317673
No shot. Robs modern work sucks but at least he's actually drawing it. At least it has some faint remnants of soul.

>>151315674
That photo is taken from a 2024 article. Could be older but probably not more than like 15 years old.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/rob-liefield-to-publish-memoir-1235865972/

It's genuinely admirable how he and his wife are so in love and each other's best friends, and how good of a family man he seems to be with his kids and all that. We like to poke fun and that's fine, but it's cool he's a good dude where it actually matters.

>>151317804
>the terrible state of the comics industry's creativity from the 80s until the movies started popping off in the early 00s
You mean when the best comics were made? Idiot.

It's actually Shooter. The man was right about almost everything yet had the reputation of a slave driver.

>>151318483
Tall Jim was the hero we needed but didn't deserve

>>151318355
This.

>>151314258
Nah, Liefeld has objectively shitty art and doesn't know how to draw worth a damn.

>>151315148
The main issue with his popularity is that it dissipated almost as quickly as it peaked. Like the guy had no lasting relevance outside of mockery, it's like everyone in the mid 90s suffered from a collective mania that they all moved on from as soon as the new millennium arrived.

>>151314361
Came here to post this, most people dismiss him entirely off of youtube video essays or reels. Actually it's not even exclusive to Garth Ennis, it seems like normies online just love to parrot what youtubers say about comics because they've never read one.

>>151317804
The 90s directly caused one of the biggest comic crashes that the industry never really recovered from, the fuck are you talking about?

>>151314324
Young took a decent idea and ran it into the ground and is now just spinning his wheels with the same bullshit over and over.

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>>151314258
Linkara has destroyed all discourse on 90's comics.

>>151317075
Stan go back to your grave please

>>151314809
Knowing Gert she probably used his head to bash someone.

>>151317180
He is
Many MANY people who don't care about comics know who Liefeld is because of pop culture osmosis
EVERYONE has seen the Captain America pic

>>151317066
I don't know how his many, many online tantrums haven't been saved and documented. He isn't shy about them.

All of his most famous creations like Cable, Deadpool, and even his independent characters like Prophet, Supreme and Glory only became praised when he had nothing to do with them. I wonder what that feels like. Alan Moore told him that Supreme straight up wasn't any good and only agreed if he could change everything about him.

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>>151321321
I was shocked to learn such a cool fucking comic was based on some forgotten Liefeldslop.

>>151315789
His later for hire work is ass, though. His work on Mictonauts and Rom is just trash.

>>151317039
That is an unobtainable position until John Byrne dies.

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>>151317039
Why is this even a question?

>>151321713
>Vision "fans" are still butthurt 40 years later.

>>151319210
Comics were good, but art at Marvel had stagnated (not saying it was bad) and Wheezy’s New Mutants was just boring. For better or worse, it was time for a change. Remember, Shooter was gone and there was no captain to guide the ship.

>>151321775
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Vision doesn’t have any fans and I give no fucks about continuity.

>>151321870
Then what the fuck did Byrne do?

>>151319671
That's a misnomer

>>151321276
Yeah there's several people including Scott Snyder, Brevoort, Capullo, Stegman and many more where it really depends on the season, or how he's feeling at the time if he's gonna target them or laud them. I don't even think he can keep it straight. I get being offended by it and thinking he's a dick but if you step back it's just entertaining.

>>151321321
And then at the end Larsen took over and literally on the page laid waste to everything Moore did to recenter Liefelds vision. A strange stunning comic in that regard, you don't often see it made so explicit

>>151321321
Liefeld is incapable of feeling shame if that’s what you’re asking. He’d feel proud his creations hosted talented creators and point out they would not exist without him.

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>>151321988
I'm so glad you brought that up, the Larsen run is such trash. His grand idea was just to have him fight Omniman.

>>151321321
>>151321994
Yeah his paying Moore a shit ton of money, producing that run, staying out of his way etc, is actually a great and positive thing. The podcast on it is really interesting.

>>151321908
In what way? The 90s was when the entire market shit the bed and it only got worse from there. The 80s was the peak of the industry, the 90s is when they did a bunch of short-sighted bullshit that ended up being the death knell.

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>>151314258
Rob Liefeld is the Ultimate Warrior of comic books
>have no real talent in the field they’re working
>somehow manage to get more popular than anyone else in their field
>hated by the actually talented people in their field who are toiling in squalor while this guy gets millions
>popularity only lasts a few years before career comes crashing down due to being a prick
>massively exaggerates their contribution to their field
>”a legend in their own mind”

>>151322084
One thing people don’t realize is that the reason the other image guys hated Liefeld and voted him out was that he’d poach talent …by offering more money. And as far as I know no one’s had an issue with his payments. Rob has been proud of how he’s paid people’s cars or homes at his peak.

His problem is he is a showboat. He thrives on "I'm better than you even though I'm not..."

He's stuck in the 90's. He basically coasted on the fame from the speculators and thinks its actual skill fame.


I just want him to sign my NM98 without drama but here we are. I'm glad that Fabian isn't as bad as him.

>>151322554
>I just want him to sign my NM98 without drama
He does the CGC private signings pretty regularly, you can send them your book, he’ll sign it, then they put it in the graded case and send it back. Sometimes they’ll do remarques too, I sent my Mask Returns 1 in for Doug Mahnke, got his sig, a Remarque of Big Head, and the book graded for around $100

>>151322595
i got remarks on other stuff from him and other signed stuff by him (he sells tons of stuff on his whatnot). I think next time around I'll send it in to CGC through my comic shop. I hate the idea of grading but whatever I'll just break it open after.

>>151314258
His takes on modern comics probably made him more loved than he's been in a while. Say what you will, but the man loves good old cool comics.

>>151321713
>>151321764
Marvel and DC spent the last couple decades and half giving it a good run

>>151322470
>was that he’d poach talent …by offering more money
…yeah that’s how poaching works anon, do you think he was offering free copies of Youngblood 1? Guys like Silvestri weren’t pulling in the money that Liefeld was so for Liefeld to go to Silvestri’s guys is definitely backstabbing behavior. Imagine you managed to hire a really damn good contractor to work on your house but the day he starts working someone you thought was a good friend tells the contractor “I’ll give you double the money to drop this job and immediately start on my contracting job”

>>151314258
to be a successful artist you have to pick 2
>be nice
>be fast
>be good
he worked on 10 books at once and is beloved by everyone who worked with him. Guess which 2 he is.

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>>151323023
He might be nice to fans and people he pays, not so much other people in the industry.

>>151314258
hes quite shit at art and creating and only because hes jewish with money did he get to be published and promoted and not punished for blatantly stealing character designs and passing off as new. hes even stolen characters and used them without permission, such as using dale keowns pitt in his books without asking dale first. no punishment because of small hats.

>>151318483
Some of the stories about him being a control freak make him sound like a real clown. Other than that, Marvel under him was mediocre as fuck, maybe it's Marvel's best era but that';s not saying much.

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>>151323023
He's not really nice to fans... he's not really good... AND he bites his past employers in the ass and they still come crawling back.

>>151319699
It honestly feels like there are just two or three anons on /co/ who even read that book, they're all just hate-reading a book they once enjoyed, but they keep bringing it up in unrelated threads and confusing everyone else.

>>151321988
Years before that, Kirkman was going to write a Supreme storyline, but only a prelude issue got released. His big idea was also to go back to the original version of Supreme. Anyone in the industry who isn't Alan Moore and who wants to write Superman stories is just going to go to DC and write Superman comics, so it shouldn't be that surprising that both people to work on Supreme after Moore were more interested in the original concept than in "we have Superman at home".

>>151322921
The contractor would be very happy at any rate.

>>151321460
>forgotten Liefeldslop
You can keep saying that, but it'll never be true. Stephen Platt's Prophet was peak 90s Extreme.

>>151322450
>Rob Liefeld is the Ultimate Warrior of comic books
>they're both really entertaining
>both brought a level of energy and intensity nobody else could match
>the both make people seethe about how you're not allowed to like them because "they're not talented"

>>151316993
>Jim Lee basically forced Claremont to retire from his 17 year X-Men run.
>at least 5 years after he probably should have just moved on from the book
It's amazing that we know exactly how stupid some of Claremont's ideas were that would have carried through the next year or two of his X-Men and people still act like anything of value was lost.

>>151314258
>can't draw feet
>most famous creation is a palette swap of Deathstroke he had no hand in creating the personality the character is best known for
No hands. No feet. No service.

>>151324052
It's hilarious how much Liefeld makes foot fetishists seethe, but it's retarded how much people over-sell the Deathstroke comparison, and pretend Deadpool wasn't popular pre-Joe Kelly and didn't already have a well-defined personality, because they can't bring themselves to credit Liefeld with doing anything popular or successful.

>>151323929
Literally who?

>>151323748
I don't blame the rest of /co/ for not reading it, because it wasn't that great from the start and it doesn't really get any better when you've seen the same gratuitous hyperviolence and exaggerated expressions for the 100th time.

>>151314258
Even when he was popular I didn't like his art work
I didn't like it when every nerd hated his art
and now that everyone likes him ironically I STILL HATE HIS ART
that being said: He seems like a nice guy

>>151324283
He's not though.

The jokes about Image comics and 90s extreme got overdone in the fucking 90s with zines and indie comics like Kill Image. Wizard magazine made the same jokes too. We all know about bad proportions, feet, utility belts and muscles. These criticisms became a meme until they become all encompassing and every time a YouTuber or person makes a video about the period they have to mention the same shit. What bothers me also is that they say these things in a tone as if they are revealing something interesting or new. And I hear people repeat shit like "90s extreme killed comics" which is a gross misunderstanding of the speculator bubble. And that's my problem, it's like a Chinese whispers, jokes and criticisms snowball into weird assertions. Whilst there is actual accurate criticisms to make.

>>151324360
He was to Moore, until Liefeld didn't hire Moore's mentor because he couldn't afford to let Alan pass writing duties onto someone else for the same pay. If Awesome wasn't struggling and Wildstorm didn't scoop up Moore, their professional relationship would have continued for years

>>151324384
>>151324360
He was also really nice to his colorists and pencillers and stuff, making them a sizable fortune at like 20 yrs old

>>151314324
I simply do not give a single FUCK about Skottie Young.

>This guy gets a shit ton of cover work
>It's literally always deviant art tier fucking doodles
>Not even cool illustrations like Sergio Aragones

He's stuff is so fucking lame.

>>151314324
Why are you acting like Young was causing drama and not just making a casual joke? You're being a bit sensitive.

>>151324610
its become a meme. but media literacy is in fact dead

>>151324121
The angry fixation some fans have with feet is fucking baffling to me.

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>>151324369
Forgot pic.

>>151324121
>pretend Deadpool wasn't popular pre-Joe Kelly and didn't already have a well-defined personality, because they can't bring themselves to credit Liefeld with doing anything popular or successful.
Liefeld didn't put the words in his mouth, that was Nicieza and Mark Waid.

Oh wait nvm I didn't parse the unfairly
my bad

>>151315727
>>151324548
I'll give him props because even if it wasn't his intention I want to punch that Bendis in the face so bad.

>>151321276
Most people look at him as low hanging fruit. It's like trying to brag about beating the tutorial boss.

>>151314258
Look, I don't "hate" the guy as a person, but if you're weren't there to experience him shitting all over New Mutants in real-time, fucking it into the ground to use as a jump pad for his OC Donuts? You're missing a very important factor behind the hate, outside of "lol no feet" and "too many pouches!!!"

>>151324681
And he seethes to this day about having to share creator credit of Deadpool with Nicieza, saying something like the Marvel janitor contributed as much to his creation

>>151324548
>He's stuff is so fucking lame.
lol
You're a faggot, and die a lonely faggot at that.

>>151319699
>>151323748
The IHF revival was a mistake, if Skottie was that desperate to do more I Hate Fairyland he should have stuck to Untold Tales. No wonder no one on /co/ cares about this comic anymore aside from me and probably 2-3 anons, there is nothing to look forward to, this comic suffered from the worst kind of death a franchise can experience: an utter lack of direction and complete apathy from its fan base.
>>151314258
>>151319671
He is overheated but he still sucks, the obsession the 90s comic book industry had for variant covers that he and his Image peers helped pioneer was devastating for the industry and the fact that it is still rampant with Marvel still doing variant covers for everything (At this point I am convinced Skottie has more variant Marvel cover pages than pages as an artist in comics) is a problem that exemplifies why the industry is still in a downward spiral.

>>151324384
He paid him, but that's about it.

>>151325089
Skottie Young still sucks, nice art but anything he's written has been garbage. He ruined I Hate Fairyland too

>>151326412
>inb4 I Hate Fairyland was never good

>>151324548
Sergio's art is something that's grown on me over time. I never disliked it, but perhaps he was slightly outshined by many of the Usual Gang of Idiots. But he truly understands what makes comic art funny.

Scottie is the opposite. The first few illustrations I saw from him were charming, but extended exposure makes me realize he's a one-trick pony with not much to say.

>>151326492
Not good per se but it went from okay to absolute dogshit real fast

>>151327672
Notice how that happened the moment he stopped doing the main covers.

>>151328649
I just assume he is bad at visual continuity

>>151314258
How unfairly was it for the hate, yo?

>>151323867
The stupidest thing about all the arguments over stuff that went down in mid-90s Image is that everyone involved has long since gotten over it, and Liefeld was allowed back to Image about 20 years ago. That random anons on /co/ are still vicariously angry about it all on behalf of Silvestri all these years later is just weird.

>>151324916
Reminder that Liefeld was a rising star artist hired to work on New Mutants to reinvigorate the lowest selling X-book and he turned it into a best seller. If you're going to pretend the book was fine before he showed up, go back and read the previous year or two of the title, most of it is one long Asgard storyline nobody seems wild about.

>>151325062
Nicieza wasn't writing the book, he was literally just providing dialogue and narration to comics Liefeld had drawn. Whether it's actually true or not, this is the exact thing people claim was all Stan Lee was doing for Kirby and Ditko, and argue he shouldn't have any credit for co-creating all those 1960s characters. But when it's Liefeld, the argument goes the other way around.

>>151330278
>most of it is one long Asgard storyline nobody seems wild about.
What the fuck, Asgardian Wars was amazing.

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>>151330278
People loved Deadpool because he was funny. Nicieza was the one writing the jokes. Ditko himself stated that Lee was Spider-Man's co-creator.

>>151330601
Asgardian Wars was an earlier storyline from back when Claremont was writing, most of it was drawn by Art Adams, IIRC.

>>151314258
The downfall of the industry literally started with him....

>>151330913
The idea to make Deadpool jokey and irreverent came from Liefeld.

>>151319667
On an objective scale, it's unfair sure but my personal dislike of Ennis is so potent that I'm fine if his legacy and name are tarnished and desecrated and he dies with a ruined name.

>>151332020
I'm mixed because I acknowledge Ennis as a solid writer, but his particular brand of smug Gen X atheism he and Ellis have is just so repulsive and tiring to me despite not being particularly religious.

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>>151331973
But he didn't write the jokes. When he has, they aren't very good. Deadpool wouldn't have taken off like he did if Rob had been supplying the dialogue. And he left X-Force altogether after 12 issues, only being involved in six issues featuring Deadpool. After that Nicieza wrote an additional 10 issues featuring Deadpool, he got a few guest spots in other comics, Waid wrote a four issue mini, Loeb wrote a three issue arc, then the Kelly series happened.

>>151326412
I really wanted to like Middlewest but it went to shit pretty fast.

>>151330278
>t. R Liefeld

>>151330278
>Whether it's actually true or not, this is the exact thing people claim was all Stan Lee was doing for Kirby and Ditko, and argue he shouldn't have any credit for co-creating all those 1960s characters. But when it's Liefeld, the argument goes the other way around.
Ignoring all the stuff with Stan, Jack, and Steve, Liefeld was 100% aware and agreed to the terms of Deadpool’s creation credit. If he felt that strongly about it he should’ve done the whole issue himself instead of having Nicieza do the dialogue.
>bbbbbbbut that wasn’t up to him that was marvel
Wrong, Liefeld says so on his podcast that he asked for scripters on New Mutants and X-Force

>>151317066
I wouldn't recommend following any creator on social media.

>>151331916
Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was Arthur Adams or Erik Larsen.

>>151332020
Why so spiteful?

>>151314322
I've only heard people praising ditko for his marvel and (less so)dc stuff
only criticism I see is of his solo work, which I kinda agree with

>>151332117
And yet, there would be no character to improve if Liefeld didn't make him. And the writing on another character design might not have had the same appeal
>but he's a ripoff of Deathstroke!
And he looks cooler.

>>151334668
No one's saying Liefeld shouldn't have co-creator credit. Just that he isn't the sole creator.

>>151314324
This is like image heroes fighting the Invincible variants

>>151334668
He certainly does not look cooler, he looks goofier.

>>151330278
Man even Liefeld was complementing Dan Mora on twitter I guess shit does call the flies

>>151336284
Mora is better than your favorite artist.

>>151314258
This

>>151314258
>man
Yes, heard he was a great guy. But he's totally hated fairly as an absolutely garbage artist and mediocre writer who only got into the industry due to cronyism.

>>151323202
Seriously? I think he's being super-nice here. That other guy is a total faggot spamming him with whiny passive-aggressively accusatory and mildly threatening e-mails. I would have just told him to fuck off if he continued to spam me after that first answer.

>>151314322
People hate Ditko?

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>>151339083
Left/libs hate him for going full Rand with Mr. A and calling them out.

>>151339209
I'd be disappointed too tbf, randroids are the laughingstock of the right wing.

>>151322084
>The podcast on it is really interesting.
Which one?

>>151339209
Comic fans have the worst takes on creators.

Alan Moore is a chill dude, I've met him, but ask anyone and they think he is a boiling hateful old man because he occasionally tells people to fuck off when he has valid reasons for disliking the industry (like them using his friend's terminal illness to manipulate him).

Ditko was pretty based and that Ditko documentary had people like Alan Moore speaking about him, Alan called Ditko a true original. But then people just scream RAND/OBJECTIVIST. As if people have fixed politics and ideas. A bunch of the Stan Lee Ditko anecdotes are fake but stuck too.

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>>151339412
>A bunch of the Stan Lee Ditko anecdotes are fake but stuck too.
Since Stan and Steve both passed, I feel like we're getting a much more nuanced understanding of their lives, particularly Ditko. I didn't know he had attempted to date Flo Steinberg until recently.

>>151339462
Lee implied Ditko was the stick in the mud who hated the energy of their books. Then you hear anecdotes about Lee like the using a literal whip once or making people bow to him when entering the office, which are corroborated by many sources. Not to say Lee didn't do good things on the books, but still. Lee put out the anecdote that Ditko wanted Green Goblin to be someone random, not Norman Osborn. And it is a complete fabrication. The story even gets weirder because it seems that originally Lee wanted Green Goblin to be connected to some Egyptian spirit or some bullshit and Ditko completely went against this.

>>151339517
It's pretty clear at this point Ditko left for the same reasons Jack Kirby did, just that Kirby had more patience dealing with Stan until he couldn't deal with him anymore, either.

>>151339242
You are a disappointment.

>>151339517
>Then you hear anecdotes about Lee like the using a literal whip once or making people bow to him when entering the office, which are corroborated by many sources.
That was joking, but I can see how more straightshooting guys like Jack(who's nickname came from making fun of similar self-aggrandizing from Victor Fox calling himself"King of the comics") or Steve would find it off-putting.

>>151340670
Plenty of people say it wasn't.

>>151314322
Thread

>>151314258
>unfairly

>>151342020
He did just draw bad feet.

>>151314324
I don't get it

>>151342470
Serious?

>>151343142
Oh wait I kinda get it now
Why all the beheaded heads though

>>151314324
Honestly folks like skottie and Hickman are the real folks to be hated. Overrated retards, Liefield still deserves hate, he caused the edgy 90s shit

>>151314996
I’m gonna say that Ditko shot himself in the foot and Mr. A was poorly written like Ayn Rands novels. Like seriously, all of the bad guys were just chaotic evil and did things for the sake of evil. His objectivist beliefs didn’t hold water. Like he was all about the right of the owner to do what they want with their property but literally presented publishers, who own the publishing company, as bad guys for saying my way or the highway. Like, my guy, if you don’t like their rules than don’t work with them but beyond that, it shouldn’t bother you at all. It’s their shit. They can do what they want with it. Want the money? shake your money maker hard and make it clap. But why expect objectivists to be morally consistent?

The man had great artwork and potential but he got radicalized on bullshit that made none of that matter.

>>151343723
That's Liefeld's Youngblood

>>151340695
In what context would it not be a joke? do you think Lee actually intended to whip people or be considered a king?

>>151345450
Okay.

>>151314322
He's not genuinely hated.

>>151314258
define unfairly hated?

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Bill Willingham. You mention Isreal a couple times and everyone loses their minds. Still wrote something better than American comics could even dream of creating today.

>>151314258
I don't think most comics fans hate him as a person, they just think his art and writing suck (and they do).

>>151339462
>I feel like we're getting a much more nuanced understanding of their lives, particularly Ditko. I didn't know he had attempted to date Flo Steinberg until recently.
It really feels like fans are embellishing this event into one of the major defining moments in Ditko's life, because nerds just seem to have this built-in need to over-exaggerate everything, when it probably wasn't that big a deal in the long run to either of their lives.

>>151339517
>Lee put out the anecdote that Ditko wanted Green Goblin to be someone random, not Norman Osborn. And it is a complete fabrication.
This seems to be a fabricated story put out there as an 'official' company explanation for why Ditko left the book, rather than publicly discuss the real behind the scenes reasons for his departure, which appear to have been about pay, and the complete breakdown of working relations between Lee and Ditko.

A lot of the other 'official' explanations Marvel have given about why people suddenly left books may be just as false, this is just the big one that's well-known to be false. To bring things back to Liefeld, he and Marvel have completely different versions of events on what went down with Heroes Reborn.

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>>151350873
Made Brevoort seethe.

>>151350873
The only thing anyone cares about Fable is the Wolf Among Us Game, which he had nothing to do with and tried to prevent from happening. The comic is pure Zionist propaganda.

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Fortuitous timing

>>151353237
>praises Morrison
>follows up by criticizing Moore but without actually naming him
Cheeky bastard.

>>151353337
I think it's explicitly meant to be Dixon. He and Rob have an uneasy truce for the time being, though I do think it's a bit of a subliminal shot at him too. Older readers may remember Rob going after Snyder after his nu52 flame out, and the ensuing back and forth.

>>151353337
Moore didn't really go at creators.

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>>151353470
He called Geoff Johns a raccoon going through his trash in the dead of the night which Johns possibly nodded to in his "Hey I can do Killing Joke too" book.

>>151353392
Dixon was pretty all right but "legendary" is way too generous. He was just a solid workhorse.

>>151353611
He was right about Johns though.

>>151314258
>>151353794

>>151353611
Here's how it works: Moore didn't actively set out to shit on Geoff Johns, someone comes to Moore and mentions, well John's is doing Blackest Night and your Green Lantern issue mentioned a Blackest Night. And Moore goes, well they just reuse and mine ideas and have nothing original. Then clickbait imply, crazy old kook grandad Moore insults you and your blockbuster funny books again! Then drama.

Context time, this is in 2009, when the Watchmen movie was out and Blackest Night was coming out. Moore's friend, Stephen Moore (no relation) had a brother with a terminal illness. Stephen was writing the Watchmen film novelisation, Alan was fine with it, he knew his friend needed the money and an easy gig. DC and other people at the time tried manipulating Moore into new contracts and agreements. Then they used his friend's situation to make a threat that he'd lose the job when he needed the money. So yes, WB/DC used a man's terminal illness to make threats to Alan Moore. Alan Moore's perspective on the industry is based on relationships and friendships getting destroyed with people actively trying to manipulate him.

So sometimes later someone says, well DC are using this idea. And he gives them a quote. It has little to do Geoff Johns at all.

>>151353611
is it like a joker truck or a joker racoon or is the blood just green for censorship?

>>151354443
>Context time, this is in 2009, when the Watchmen movie was out and Blackest Night was coming out.
And even more context, I met Alan Moore and got all my shit signed by him just before this time period. The dude is really chill and kind and prior to this shit he even still did comic signings with no issue. He is nothing like people say. He has legitimate reasons to be upset. And people take his comments way too seriously.

>>151350873
Willingham's Batman was terrible.

>>151354485
Nta but that's sweet. Not a big "celebrity" guy but would love to share a few seconds w that lovable wizard

>>151354443
Here's a direct quote, it was an attack.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120203091127/http://www.mania.com/alan-moore-reflects-marvelman-part-2_article_117529.html
>KA: I think the issue of fans writing for fans and the continuity are what’s killing comic books these days. You can write a comic book about anything you want. But, people insist on dragging these corporate mascots out for 40, 50, or 60 years. It’s not about good storytelling, but about keeping characters around so that they can license them out. You want to just say, “Write a graphic novel or a miniseries and move on to the next story. Quit milking the ideas that a bunch of other people came up with.”

>AM: That’s it. It’s the paucity of imagination. I was noticing that DC seems to have based one of its latest crossovers [Blackest Night] in Green Lantern based on a couple of eight-page stories that I did 25 or 30 years ago. I would have thought that would seem kind of desperate and humiliating, When I have said in interviews that it doesn’t look like the American comic book industry has had an idea of its own in the past 20 or 30 years, I was just being mean. I didn’t expect the companies concerned to more or less say, “Yeah, he’s right. Let’s see if we can find another one of his stories from 30 years ago to turn into some spectacular saga.” It’s tragic. The comics that I read as a kid that inspired me were full of ideas. They didn’t need some upstart from England to come over there and tell them how to do comics. They’d got plenty of ideas of their own. But these days, I increasingly get a sense of the comics industry going through my trashcan like raccoons in the dead of the night.

>KA: [laughing]

>AM: That’s a good image, isn’t it? They weren’t even particularly good ideas. For Christ’s sake, get some of your own ideas! It’s not that difficult. You used to be able to have them! I’ve also heard that, apparently, a fifth of the direct sales market in comics is my work—twenty percent!

>>151354454
Joker truck. It was a Black Label book, so no censored violence.
>>151354498
That it was, but in fairness to him, it was purely mercenary. Editorial told him what to write and he did it for the paycheck.

>>151354804
I mean you just ignored all the context of everything I said for the time. The comment prior to his comment was pretty leading to. I don't think it is an attack in the way you seem to think it is. He doesn't even mention Johns directly there by name either. It's more about the industry.

>>151354900
He expresses contempt for the publishers, writers, and readers in that interview.
>I think the lights are going out all over the comics industry. A lot of this is the fault of the publishers, a lot of it is the fault of the artists and writers, and I think, as you say, some of it is the fault of the readers. They sat back and ate what they were served, even when that was substandard. They never objected to the way in which any of the creators of their beloved characters were treated.

>>151354804
>>151354955
He's absolutely right. Readers keep buying shit comics, so publishers keep making them.

>>151354955
Sure. Again, think about the context. He doesn't directly name Johns either, he mentions that as a passing example. Industry and readers.

It's silly to act like "oh he's shitting on Johns directly," hence why I'm saying "he's got specific context for feeling the way he does about the industry and made some comments in passing shitting on the industry". There is a difference. But people would rather be like, "Alan Moore hates Geoff Johns!!" And not "Alan Moore dislikes an industry that did specific terrible things to him and has been somewhat right in plenty of his criticism too."

What you need to understand is people have a love/hate thing with Moore. They love his work but then get defensive when he shits on their funny books. He's moved on and writes novels now, he's contented but people still bring up shit or act like he's the angry old man seeking controversy and not just saying, he's passed that point in his life. People can't move on. And writers in the industry act like he's evil for thinking the way he does because they don't know any of the things that went down and just think he's bitter.

>>151345450
It’s less that he got radicalized, and more that he had to much self respect to deal with corporate bullshit and cut out when he got tired of the disrespect. Yes we chastise him today considering how much worse it is, but I wouldn’t say he bitches as much as Kirby did and Kirby happily ate a constant amount of shit despite his own bluster

>>151355067
>Readers keep buying shit comics, so publishers keep making them.
Well, he did mention one fifth of the sales are his work.

>>151319602
>it's like everyone in the mid 90s suffered from a collective mania that they all moved on from as soon as the new millennium arrived.

Yea thats the 90's in general.

Liefield at least can take a joke and seems like a nice guy to be around.

>>151357714
>Liefield at least can take a joke and seems like a nice guy to be around.
His social media makes it seem like the complete opposite.

>>151314996
This

>>151314996
That

>>151314258
pic unrelated

>>151354485
>>151354485
I met him around 2010-2012 too and yeah he was very nice and answered my questions, talked about how an editor is important for someone in their early career to help guide them and filter their ideas and he said that he enjoyed working with a lot of great ones. Funnily enough we talked about his Supreme and Liefeld and he said that Liefeld is one of the most soulless people he ever met, an empty minded child with money.