At which point did the Bat Family become too much for you?
>>151830239Harper Row and his brother, also alfred's niece (but she is cool)
>>151830239Thats not how you make chocolate chip pancakes Steph.
>>151830239When I realized this family shit is a half assed attempt to appeal to hypothetical female readers
This was when it peaked. It helped that there was a title (Gotham Knights) that was good at making them interact as professionals iwith human flaws rather than coming across as being written by people dealing with parental issues (everything now).
>>151830239Only Clownhunter, Miracle Molly and Harley joined
>>1518302392013 onwards
>>151830239I never liked the idea of a Bat family.
>>151830239I love them. More waifus for all.Spoiler, Huntress, Bette Kane, Alfred’s daughter, Batwoman, Duela Dent, etc
>>151830239I didn't even like there being one Robin, but I ran with it. Beyond that, fuck no.
>>151830239I liked some of the New52 but all the redesigns and additions to the Bat family suckedWholesome moments are nice but tryhard stuff like OP's pic doesn't help. It's less a team of heroes and more just self-insert friend group now
>>151830239Before Damian it was getting way too crowded. Then Morrison run was a ideal point to start a soft reset and make them move away of the concept. Then N52 decided to double down with the whole thing and that move the concept to the current overcrowded mess.
when they coined the term
>>151830239People whining about the batfamily always massively exaggerate how much of a thing it is, especially post the big crossover events from 20 years ago. These characters interact with each other significantly less than actual people who work what are essentially the same jobs with a shared main operating center.
>>151830239The concept bother me since Bruce has never been more interesting than when he is a trainwreck and a shit mentor that deserve to die alone. The execution is another issue. It's pure fanservice build on tell don't show and heavy flanderization that makes no effort to appeal to anyone who hasn't the batfam brainrot.
>>151831479People also forget that at any given point there are usually multiple concurrent Batman and Batman-adjacent titles that don't necessarily overlap. The lineup in >>151830602 features characters who were appearing in, IIRC, 11 books at the time.
>>151830239Unironically when they brought in Duke because someone realized that there were no black people on the team. >>151830452We like Harper Row tho.
Hot takeThe endgame of the Batfamily in any medium should be Ivy and Harley joining.Batman going from grizzled loner to redeeming two of his enemies enough to trust them with his secrets should be the ultimate proof of his methods and presence being a positive in Gotham.
>>151830239Modern times, so I guess the new 52? I liked Damien and Grayson's relationship back in the day, I also like Cass.But it feels like they added way too many people, honestly Stephanie should have stayed dead. Or at least be restricted to Red Robin's comics.
>>151833065>someone realized that there were no black people on the team
>>151830239You think the problem isn't necessarily how big it is, it's just how bloated it is? It feels like there shouldn't be more than 3 side kicks for Batman at a time, they should just come in and out of Bruce's life.
>>151833942He wasn't that bad of a character all things considered. I actually felt bad for him. I just wish he had better stories.
My last straw was Dickbats getting the shaft a la New 52. We have to progress, people. Spider-Man shot itself in the foot killing Ben Reilly (the first (technically second) time) -- why have we not learned from history? Characters need to retire and titles need to expand to other kinds of stories and themes to remain fresh.
>>151830239Tim Drake. I understand Tim/Steph shippers, I understand Cass fetishists, I understand Oracle feminists, but none of those characters count at all. And Catwoman never moves out of the Fujiko role.
>>151831268>Then Morrison run was a ideal point to start a soft reset and make them move away of the concept."Batman Inc" and "Batman and Son" Morrison was going to reduce the batfamily concept?
Around rebirth when they seemed determined to keep all the new 52 additions in addition to bringing back the ones they got rid of with new 52 and integrating Kate more into it. Then 2020 and they decided to also add Harley which was double overkill.Late 90s/early 00s was probably peak batfamily because everybody had a distinct role they fell into even if they weren't particularly well written, without stepping on each others toes (beyond Bruce and Dick getting stripped of some of their traits)>Leader: Bruce.. very stern/serious, usually humorless/deadpan, hated not being Batman>Lancer: Dick.. more emotional/heart on sleeve, dumbed down so Tim and Babs could exist, typically the one to call Bruce out on his bullshit because Bruce would piss him off>The Smart Guy: Babs.. the one to call Bruce out on his bullshit if Dick didn't, typed away on her computer to tell Bruce and Dick what they needed to know>The Fighter/Big Guy: Cass. self explanatory>The Outcast: Helena, self explanatory>The Kid/Heart: Tim, if Babs was around to be the smart guy, if she wasn't then he was the smart guy. But everybody even Helena (except for Bruce because he was horrible in the 90s/early 00s) were nice to Tim and treated him wellDickbats era was really close to peak batfamily though for the same reason and they could've had like 2-5 more years of it.>Leader: Dick>Lancer: Damian>Smart Guy: Still Babs>Fighter/Big Guy: Still Cass>Outcast: Tim (self imposed), Helena >The Kid/Heart: StephSince new 52/rebirth, beyond Bruce, Dick, and Babs keeping their positions (which makes sense, those 3 were established together in the 70s), all the others can be filled with 2-3 different characters which isn't good. It's very superfluous.
>>151830239When they decided to unofficially add Harley.
When Tim became gay.
>>151831268It really wasnt getting crowded pre morrison, pre morrison they had removed two.It turns out that they're popular, so removing popular characters is bad when you want to sell more books.>>151831134What are you 90?
>>151834783Babs didnt keep her position at all in the new 52, tim became the smart guy as she became "the girl"
>>151834796As much as people complain about it, Harley has never been part of the Bat-Family.Hell, one could probably make more of an argument for Clayface, who was directly working in a team with the Bat-Family.
>>151830239When they added Daimin and even then Tim was already pushing it.
>>151830629>>151834783>>151834796Working with Batman like once or twice =/= Being part of the Bat-Family
>>151834873except it wasn't just once or twice. She's eve saved like a couple of the Robin's lives more than once.
>>151830239The perfect line-up:BatmanRobin (Damian)NightwingRed RobinBatgirl (Stephanie)BatwomanRed HoodOracleThat's it. That's all we need.
Wouldnt say its too big, just that the writing hasnt been adjusted to write them all, personally. As in, the roles are in an odd spot for many.Like damian doesnt really work as bruce's robin, but he works perfectly as dick's foil>>151834783Desu, cass wasnt really used in the reborn era, and steph was also a consitent outsider int he 90s/00s, but broadly yeah, and its probably why those two are the best eras of the family.
>>151834883So has the fucking Joker, again, there's a clear definition to what makes someone part of the family, and Harley has never been part of it except in like, the Harley Quinn show I think, but I haven't watched that because I don't go out of my way to watch things I know I'll hate.
>>151834903Will say, its lame how this type of thread keeps popping up, they've tried reducing the family, it never works becuase these are all some of dc's most popular characters, even the one you dislike has more fans than nearly every other dc character around.
>>151834894That's pretty much what we have right now plus Cass and Duke.And even then, many of these characters aren't always active.Like, Jason, Kate, Duke, and Steph have spent a long of time without being regulars in some book, and Damian is about to lose his.The Bat-Family might be "big" but depending on the era, you're only going to get a handful of them consistently showing up in stories, usually Bruce, Dick, and Babs as the ones that always get consistent appearances.
>>151834949Its not that its big, its just that its used odd, yeah my argument.
>>151834922>even the one you dislike has more fans than nearly every other dc character around.I can believe that about any of them but Duke.And I can safely say that now that I've read We Are Robin, even then, he was probably the least interesting one of the bunch.
I swear, you can break the Batfamily into two team while both opperating under BatmanTeam Dick where it's Dick, Damian and Cass and a support member (Kate).Team Jason where it's Jason, Tim, Steph and a support member (fan favorite Harper).
I can't take seriously anyone who unironically complains about characters like Harley, Miracle Molly, or Ghost-Maker being part of the Bat-Family, because if you actually read the fucking comics, you clearly tell that no, those characters are NOT part of the Bat-Family.They might be, family friends at best, but DC makes a very clear distinction between those characters that are considered Bruce's inner circle and those he just keeps at arm's length for like an arc or two.
>>151830602It's kinda funny how Huntress and Azrael were kicked out of being part of the main Bat-Family in favor of characters like Jason, Damian, Duke, and Steph.Jason was just coming back and accidentally took over the edgy anti-hero role of the family, Damian is a nepo baby, Duke is just a token, and Steph gets to join for her close relationship to members like Tim, Cass, and Babs, which is very Daisy Duck of her lol
>>151834970I mean, duke has his fans, and again, more than so many other characters.>>151835040They're more like superman than anything.
>>151835108I mean, Azrael fucking died bro. And it wasn't Jason, Damian, Duke, or Steph who kicked Huntress out. Huntress was already doing her thing with Babs in BOP.
>>151830239Probably when Jason came back and they added Damian. Definitely when they cured Barbara. Everything after the end of Oracle is just noise I try to block out. Not that she was the lynchpin or anything, it's just that around that time I really went from "it's a bit large but eh, it's mostly organic" to "okay this is fucking ridiculous, yes." Signal in particular makes my eyes roll so hard I might hurt myself.
>>151835161>Azrael fucking died broWell, he isn't dead anymore is he? Yet they still won't invite that bum to Thanksgiving Dinner.
>>151835197>Well, he isn't dead anymore is he?No, but that's what made it possible for other characters to fill his void.
>>151830602I know Devin Grayson gets a lot of flack - most of it well deserved - but fuck did she write some good stuff with the characters interacting in Gotham Knights. The issue where Batman couldn't find any crime to fight was pure "Every Bat-fan should read this" gold.
Wonder if it's possible to anymore characters to join the Bat-Family at this point.Really feels like all the possible spots have been filled.
>>151835291Eventually a BTAS Boomer will make Annie Clayface a permanent Robin sidekick.
>>151835305That is so not happening.
>>151835305Characters with powers don't usually join the family long term, like remember when redeemed Clayface was part of it for a while during Rebirth?At best I could see her being like a family friend or something.Wait, something like that already exists, Clayface's daughter Katherine Karlo.
At which point? In 1940. It's all been downhill since they introduced Robin the Boy Wonder.
>>151835123>I mean, duke has his fans, and again, more than so many other characters.Maybe compared to the legions of Z-list characters, but he doesn't fit in with the others at all. Everyone else has earned their place by helping shape the Batman mythos or by being popular with fans; Duke is shoehorned in only because DC feels they need more "representation."
>>151835547He's from an uber-popular snyder run, so that defintely helps id argue? I can say he hasnt shaped as much, sure, but idk, i feel still rather popular all things considered
>>151834609By your logic, you actually mean Dick or Jason, since Tim didn't change the population of the Batfamily when he appeared and you're discounting all the female characters.
Who is this character? Is he like a servant or something?
>>151835697No, I mean Tim. Dick and Jason are distinct characters who have different roles and personalities and reasons to exist. Tim onwards are just "well, Jason worked, so obviously there should be A New ____ every few years." Female characters are fine for eye candy and romance, but not as part of the Batfamily.
>>151835581You know what doesn't help? The fact that he was cucked out of being an official Robin so DC can safely ignore him when they have all the actual Robins get together.
>>151835514the only reason Batman made it to 41 was Robin.
>>151835247Well they did a shitty job of it. It's much more fun to read about the guy that was raised in such an abusive cult environment that he argues with the (probably just-in-his-head) ghost of a dead religious fanatic from the Dark Ages.
>>151835284Devin is the literal queen of the fujostacies.>somehow got DC to publish a book called Inheritance containing subtext of various mentor/sidekick pairings>wrote her favorite character across three books (Gotham Knights, Titans, Nightwing)>became #3 influential Dick writer behind Wolfman and Dixon>your pre-Born Again ripoff Nightwing & Gotham Knights Dick is the base of fanon Dick that spread to WFA and Taylor's canon>your Titans and intra & post-Born Again ripoff Dick is the base of Dick fans who hate fanon Dick and post panels of Dick from those issues being pissed to show he's edgy and hardcore>his fans hate you and your Nightwing run yet they spread panels of your run and your Gotham Knights run far and wide to much acclaim, but because people are told to not read your stuff, most don't know those panels came from you>also be one of the most influential fab five writers in generalLiterally how did Devin do it? How did she win??
>>151835197It's okay, he can make his own family with his adoptive brother and Bane's daughter.
>>151835291Alfred is still dead right, they could add a new "civilian" member as a supporting character.
>>151830239Is this AI?
>>151835881She's an odd one, because some of her choices were truly bad, but at the same time she wrote some fantastic stuff and had some wonderful ideas. And some of her bad stuff DID get screwed over at least partly by editorial (there's no universe where the Tarantula shit would have been good, but it probably would've been better if she'd been allowed keep the pacing she'd originally intended), and some of the hate is just retarded. There's no universe where the Tarantula shit would have been good, but holy fuck there are people that thought Tarantula was a self-insert Mary Sue that we were meant to like or something? Really? REALLY? She was a crazy bitch that eventually was willing to kill Dick to avoid going to jail over killing Blockbuster, and in the end when Dick decided to seriously fight her he was able to curbstomp her WITH A BROKEN LEG AND USING CRUTCHES. The story was shit, but fucking hell some of the analysis was painful to read. It was a story similar to Dixon's Nite-Wing one, about how Dick's heart of gold could also be his Achilles heel, since he's so damn willing to give people extra chances when they don't deserve them.>his fans hate you and your Nightwing run yet they spread panels of your run and your Gotham Knights run far and wide to much acclaim, but because people are told to not read your stuff, most don't know those panels came from youNot just the Nightwing stuff. You'll see people gushing about how much better Roy was as Arsenal, and how awesome it was to acknowledge his "white dude, but raised on a reservation" past, give him Tribal tattoos, etc. That was all Grayson, even the "Arsenal" codename (well these panels aren't, but she's the one that redeemed his old origin and turned it into something nifty that gave us scenes like this). Just goes to show: don't write your character getting raped. It's just never a good idea and people won't forgive and forget.
>>151836004Maybe, but that'd just be a temporary solution until they properly bring Alfred back.
>>151835881Did she also have her self-insert rape Dick?
>>151834783Dick should habe never returned to the Batbooks. He .makes other characters redundants and isn't that interesting to carry a book alone without adding redundancy.Also Steph should have been as a minor character orbiting Tim and rarely interacting with other characters.>>151834820Cass was never popular.
>>151836129Tarantula wasn't her self insert, Dick was. She handled that topic better in Titans wherein she wrote a Very Special Issue with Grant revealing Roy he was sexually abused.She herself was sexually abused as a child.
>>151836136Yeah all hte people who wanted her back where imaginary and her solo didnt do good numbers! Nor does stuff with her get a fair amount of traction.Nope.They're all popular
>>151836148Anyway the whole storyline was a shitshow but if you actually read it, Tarantula doesn't even come off as a self insert. Dick hates her and thinks she's creepy, he's traumatized, and she's written as creepy and as a unreliable narrator.
>>151830239Gotham Knights, and making Tim gay.>>151830812Yep
>>151836162What book with her has been selling above others in the editorial line? She was interesting for like 5 issues and then she has been rethreading the same beats for years.
>>151836230Her original run did pretty good up to the last arc. And that's the same thing you can say about all of them, they all redo one storybeat for year. Look at dick not wanting to be batman, jason's everything, tim or damians. Or steph being accepted by batman.
>>151836129Her being a self insert is one of those lies Dickfags keep repeating. Same with them repeating she changed to name because she was obsessed with the character.>Devin Kalile Grayson is my real and legal name. It's what's on my driver's license, passport, social security, etc. I've never written under a pseudonym. I was born with a different name, but had it legally changed in my early twenties — well before I was working in comics or even thinking about such — in response to sexual abuse issues in my childhood that made me feel like I needed to distance myself from my past a little bit psychologically.She has issues but her issue isn't being obsessed with the character.
>>151830239i dont really care. one of the first comics i ever read as a kid was knightfall which already had azrael the batman stories i like are the detective focused one. batfam being big or small is largely irrelevant to me
>>151836267I feel bad, but also i totally buy shes jilled to dick grayson porn.
>>151833942There was a lot of realization.
>>151836129>Did she also have her self-insert rape Dick?See >>151836044>oly fuck there are people that thought Tarantula was a self-insert Mary Sue that we were meant to like or something? Really? REALLY? She was a crazy bitch that eventually was willing to kill Dick to avoid going to jail over killing Blockbuster, and in the end when Dick decided to seriously fight her he was able to curbstomp her WITH A BROKEN LEG AND USING CRUTCHES. The story was shit, but fucking hell some of the analysis was painful to read. It was a story similar to Dixon's Nite-Wing one, about how Dick's heart of gold could also be his Achilles heel, since he's so damn willing to give people extra chances when they don't deserve them.It was a bad story, a very bad story, but anyone that thought Tarantula was a self insert is dangerously unable to comprehend literature. Dick tried really really hard to turn Tarantula into a hero but eventually was forced to accept that she was just a dangerous psycho, and all the "but she means well" in the world wasn't going to change that. That's the story. It's not a good story, but it's also not a "self-insert" story.
>>151833942They got rid of this guy and brought back white blond Azrael for a reason.
>>151836506why
>>151836510Cause Jean-Paul Valley is the best :)
>>151835040Thank you
>>151836327I want Lucius fox to wake up one day and realize that the rest of his family were just a terrible, terrible dream
>>151830239What is with these people and breakfast food. Why was that the wacky meal?
>>151836044I actually didn't know Arsenal was Native American, that's pretty cool desu.
>>151830239Only solo Batman is good.
>>151836931So literally never?
>>151830239No normal people wake up to breakfast and get dressed in their cos-play, to go and eat breakfast. They would be in whatever they slept in, robes if they are that delicate, and then shower and get dressed like fucking actual human beings.>>151830602This art looks like the Downs Family Adventure Hour on their special episode where they take Little Timmy to the convention center to prove to him he can be normal, just like everyone else who likes the same things he does.
>>151835284This is awful.
>>151836935Come on, bro.
>>151836945Oh yeah, I forgot that at one point Frank Miller decided that comics can never be fun again
>>151836966Year One is fun for non-retards.
>>151836859He is and he isn't. His Silver Age origin was basically that he was a kid who got trained by a Sioux archer named Brave Bow because Speedy's dad, Ranger Harper, once saved Brave Bow's life. Oh and Ranger Harper died in an avalanche, so Brave Bow raised Speedy like a son. Everyone ignored that for decades until Grayson went "how about we fucking lean into this?" and modernized his origin. Ranger Archer became a man that was friendly with a Sioux Tribe and saved a bunch of them in a forest fire before dying himself. Then the tribe turns around, looks at Roy, and goes "no fucking way are we handing this kid off to social services after what his dad did for us."
>>151830602Innsmouth Knights
>>151837024Grayson actually did her homework, bringing to the table some interesting stuff like Sioux naming ceremonies, Roy getting tribal tats, Roy hanging around with his childhood friends on the reservation who bust his balls about the fact that EVERYONE knows him as "the superhero sidekick that did drugs," etc. It worked pretty well to update the origin while giving him some unique story fodder.Then Lobdell turned him into a white trash trucker wannabee because Lobdell sucked.
When Stephanie was revived. When Harper Row (immensely trash name) was introduced. The family needed no add-ons. Last I peaked in that killed by interest in Batman stone cold dead was there some was some random Mary sue metahuman operating in lieu of Batman in Gotham one-shotting crime and that is wasn't an AU. Tom King and New52. I don't know which did Batman the worse. Probably King. Likely King.
>>151830602When I think of the Batfamily this is what always comes to mind. I love Jason but at this point in time he'd be dead so at this point I think you'd have Selina subbing in and performing heroics on Bruce's behalf which was just lovely in my eyes. No Man's Land was so solid. All of these characters and the old nurse lady and Gordon shined during the build up and duration of that entire arc.
>>151837066I'm okay with Stephanie being revived because holy fucking shit, fuck Willingham entirely for the story where she died. Her initial death in War Games was pretty bad, but then we got the tweest ending that actually Leslie Thompkins COULD have saved her life, but Leslie was an evil lib so she LET Stephanie die just so she could turn around and say to Bruce "you get children killed!" Just an awful story that needed to be undone.
>>151830583It's obviously working. Fan artists with hundreds of thousands of followers on social media absolutely creating Batfamily content, especially with Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian. Even the less popular ones like Cass and Steph still have more fan content than supposed A-listers. It's done more to expose people to these characters than comics ever have.
>>151836845I guess because they thought it was weird to break convention by having that sort of food outside of breakfast time
>>151830239When they realized they basically had to remove the third Robin to make room for the rape baby.
>>151836267I find it really fascinating how a lot of modern fandom's hatred for Grayson has roots in misogyny, despite how left leaning the batfam/Dick fans are. You see it best with how the general fandom talks about her vs Wolfman. Wolfman has done everything Grayson has done but more often and with more characters but it's only been in the last 5 years has fandom started to give him shit for Terra & Slade (while omitting other instances in the same comic like Donna & Hyperion). And people will be seething about Tarantula nonstop and at most will just kinda bring up Liu and Mirage as more afterthought, despite the facts that Grayson literally addressed it "better" in story (Dick is upset and traumatized by it instead of the whole thing being glossed over and forgotten about like in the case of Mirage & Liu) and that she apologized for writing it and her "nonconseual sex" comment whereas Wolfman has never apologized.
>>151837387>misogyny>>>/tumblr/>>>/2015/>>>/snowchan or whatever the fuck/
>>151830239When gays and women started projecting themselves into it.
>>151836327I would've preferred Jace's Batman book just been about him and his siblings making their own little group outside of Gotham instead of Jace being a moody bitch. Tiffany was cute in that Future's End issue and Tam was pretty cool in Red Robin. Luke has always sucked balls though.>>151836966Even Miller knew Robin is pretty essential. That's a big part of TDKR and that's what ASBAR is about.>>151837064>handle Roy's native american shit with better grace than would be expected for the late 90s, slight white savior but not as bad as it could've been>handle Damage's sexual abuse reveal issue fairly well>the issue Dick is revealed as romani has the romani grandpa think Dick is planning to steal from Bruce, Bruce calls Dick hot blooded, and gypsy is also thrown around at least once>shit the bed with Dick's sexual assaultThis is why people shouldn't write their favorite characters.>>151837387It makes more sense when you realize those people don't read comics and are just repeating the same 5 lies about her back and forth to each other.
>>151830239When they sided with Catwoman after Gotham War.That event made me wish Batman would fire all Batfamily members and kick them out of Gotham.Now Batman Hush is doing the same.
>>151834828Tim was barely in the Batman books during new 52 and when he was (crossover tie ins, Eternal, BRE) he was mostly just one half of "those two guys" with Jason.
>>151830239Batfamily is cool af. All adopted kids fighting justice. I wonder where Talia, she said Damien to fuck off or something? Go back to the kitchen you failed assassin bitch.
>>151830239When they kept adding interesting characters like Sasha Bordeaux, Onyx and Orpheus only to unceremoniously dump them to pair the team down to just Robins and Batgirls, then couldn't figure out what to do with them either.Admittedly it wasn't as egregious pre-Flashpoint, but after the New 52 and they were still pulling shit like Harper Row despite the continuity changes, that was the true tipping point.
>>151837823Sasha got better and more interesting when she was in Checkmate
>>151830239So Bruce is real Dominic Toretto. It's about family.
>>151836945A comic book that shows the origin of Batman. Is your proposal that DC should eternally retell Batman's origin? What a terrible idea.
>>151836777Nice trips
>>151837905Well they keep retelling Superman and Donna's origins so may as well do Batman's too
>>151830239Damian
>>151830239The bat family is stupid. You just need Batman, Alfred, Catwoman, Huntress, Batgirl (Barbara), Nightwing and 1 Robin. Either classic normal Tim Drake or replace the fag version with Damien. And keep Red Hood as a villain. But don't keep having them all interact with each other at the same time. The whole clusterfuck of a million street level martial artists is so fucking pointless and redundant.
>>151837963BS to be honest. Bruce should be already dead without bat family. Because it's all about family. You can't just be all along for a long time, without family
>>151837981But you're forgetting the first rule of a streetfight.The Batman always wins.
>>151837981> Batman is all about familyNta and kek. He has an army and a butler who is an inefficient authority figure.
>>151838010Not without family. Nope he won't.
Turning the Robins in the TMNT made me realize just how dumb all this is.
>>151838025Until Robin.
>>151830239Mid 2010s. 2015-2016 or so.
>>151837773And don't forget don't about Ra's Al Ghul. kid need a grandpa to be around. It's xmas dammit.
