>>152001087
There is also the problem of every single writer since 2003 has wanted to redefine what his powers are.

>>152001107
I unironically like Austin's healing blood power

>Becomes fuzzy and jovial, then a bad guy
>Phoenix'd
>Mechanized and given more powers
>Radicalized
>Sassy gay guy who is theoretically busted

The O5 are only technically the same people to begin with

>>152001156
Yes but enough about Angel

>>152001087
Would have been cool of he went into limbo as an actually inuniverse beloved and successful superhero. I've always found it odd when in Spider-Man he's like "I wish I had it as good as those Avengers guys" and Iron's an alchoholic hated by the media and Cap sleeps on some black guys couch.

>>152001840
He has been to the Avenger's and X-Mansions. Probably seen Moon Man in his batcave and not living like a gay hobo couch to couch and dick to dick like Constantine

>>152001119
It fits him well to have those powers, but it deserved a much better storyline with them in general.

>>152001087
Isn't the Dark Angel saga one of the most beloved modern X-Men sagas?

>>152001119
It helps just about any one of the animal themed guys to have quick healing. Since as far as superpowers go, it's normally more threatening to just own a regular gun.

>>152002424
Angel in general is pretty beloved. They never give him any work outside of like X-Factor and X-Force

>>152001087
>he gets no coverage whatsoever
That's why he's the best. Look at what coverage did to Iceman. How many solos did they give him only to flop?

>>152003167
never understood the love for iceman before he was turned gay
he's a blue polygon

>>152003608
Spider-Man's other elemental friend.

should be like tony stark of x-men, rich dashing benefactor, a more front facing romantic salesman type to scott and logan's gruffness
who also then sometimes goes HAM as Archangel

>>152003750
I agree. Always got a Howard Hughes vibe out of Warren

>>152003608
The ice surfing was cool

>>152003739
was there ever any 616 comics involving spidey and his amazing friends or was that only ever just the show. I know there was one but it was pre-miles ultimate

>>152003750
That way makes sense because he is both the handsome rich guy and the visibly not a regular human of his original group, but they didn't take that route with him.

>>152001087

Angel is highly satanic because he's a mockery of God's ANGLES

>>152005413
isn't he quite the lapsed catholic?
surprised there hasn't been an Archangel/Nightcrawler teamup book

>>152005413
X-Men in general are a festering cesspit of degeneracy to be honest.

File: Pete.jpg (42 KB, 426x600)

42 KB JPG

>>152002424
>Isn't the Dark Angel saga one of the most beloved modern X-Men sagas?

that was 15 years ago, when is he going home

>>152006772
I thought he was talking about the orignal Apocalypse era, losing his wings.
The fact that he's got two of those eras is fantastic

>>152001156
Bobby had it the worse. Now, his entire personality is being gay AND an omega mutant.

File: deadpoolangel.jpg (242 KB, 1191x939)

242 KB JPG

>>152001087
beast is my personal favorite but it's clear that cyclops and jean grey suck up way too much time and space. i'd love to see more x-men arcs with beast, angel and iceman. archangel was great in uncanny x-force (that was good coverage), it's strange that he doesn't join other hardcore teams with characters like cable and bishop. i was also surprised i never saw angel question apocalypse being at krakoa.

>>152006892
one of the writers had beast claiming he was gay in the 2000s

>>152001119
same. i'm surprised archangel hasn't developed a healing factor for himself (or he has?). would be cool if he got stronger in multiple ways as he got older. in age of apocalypse he was neutral and diplomatic but nightcrawler hated him

>>152001107
writers were doing stuff with both angel's and nightcrawler's ancestry. you'd think they'd be a duo or have an arc those two

>>152001087
They should soft reboot him by giving him the serum that made Hank a blue furry. Turning him into a bird guy would create some new stories.

>>152003608
His powerset and look was cool.
He was the class clown type that enjoyed his powers. Not the 'SECRETLY TORTURED BUT JOKES thing that's beyond tired.
He was a genuinely...forgive the pun...CHILL guy.
And I liked how he used his powers to change into his iceman form and slide around on his ice bridge.

Then they just focused every single bit of his personality and relationships through the lens of faggotry because some homos NEEDED him to be a fag.

Now he's complete shit. Best part about it? The faggots who wanted this bullshit don't even like him anymore.

>>152006941
ehhh.... they did that in krakoa. it was short lived, forgettable, and there are already other bird characters.

birds are technically dinosaurs, so if you're saying turn him more like a dinosaur or ancient reptile, that would specifically be better in my opinion. but he writers also did some weird shit that his bloodline is angelic or something. i admit a celestial reptile does sound cool

>>152006963
>i admit a celestial reptile does sound cool
Like a seraphim?

>>152007002
snakes are not directly related to dinosaurs like birds are

but if angel made friends with quetzalcoatls that'd be funny and entertaining to read

>>152005321
Firestar hung out with Spidey a lot during her run in the New Warriors but I don't believe there was ever a formal Amazing Friends team up in 616

>>152006941
>>152006963
there's literally a whole city of offshoot-Inhumans who are bird people, they're currently waiting for Medusa to make good on fixing them after the Terrigen bomb

meanwhile the fucking mutants are speedrunning through pedo island after pedo island because apparently supervillainy got boring

>>152001087
he was great in uncanny x-force and he is the true love of betsy braddock.

>>152007848
who wouldn't love a woman called busty buttocks

>>152006922
>writers were doing stuff with both angel's and nightcrawler's ancestry. you'd think they'd be a duo or have an arc those two
It’s crazy to me that they were on the same team for like 40 issues as far back as the late 70s and yet never got a single story just focusing on them as a pair

>>152006941
I think they tried this in the original ultimate universe.

>>152001107
>>152001119
I really just like metal wing Archangel. Guy with metal wings that also work as shields or blades, and can shoot feathers works enough for me. He doesn't need anything more after that.

I think the issue is more that writers want him to be original feather wing Warren again, but also that makes him totally useless as a team member of superheroes that goes and fights bad guys. So they scramble to invent some other new power on top of flying to make him into something more.

>>152008382
Why can’t they just make him a supporting figure that handles stuff behind the scenes? Have him fund various mutant-related efforts, make him the “guy in the chair” with a finger on anti-mutant sentiment’s pulse, be the middleman between influential humans (especially in the business world, because Warren) and unspoken-for mutants.

>>152009098
Because no writer wants to bother with that. it's not interesting for a story and everyone wants to focus on the cool superpowers fights. The books are only 19 pages, cannot waste time taking characters and having them be someone in a super cool computer room somewhere that does all the hacking communications shit.

Plus that is more Forge's spot, or Xavier's.

>>152001107
>>152009098
The power upgrade was more a relic of 80s X-Factor when the original 5 were not that powerful of a team compared to every other hero team book at the time. Beast got a strength upgrade, Ice Man was massively upgraded in power without any real explanation, and Warren was remade into Archangel.

When folded back into the X-Men there was less of a need for every team member to be some ultra killing machine so we got feather Warren again.

>>152009242
So if Warren had to be a one-man team, he would power up again into Principality?

>>152009242
The Iceman upgrade should be some timetravel shenanigans where he goes back in time to prevent Jean from turning him gay.
>>152001087
Is him and Betsy the most interesting pairing between the both of them? Man, gayness strikes again to ruin the entertainment of X-Men.

>>152008382
the healing shit was a good choice and it's weird how long it took the angelic and biblical character to be able to do it

>>152008270
yeah it took til nightcrawler being resurrected for there to be an issue with him and beast being best buds

you'd think the angel/demon looking guys would have already been a thing, or shown up as a relevant plotline in midnight sons or d.r strange or something

>>152009098
>supporting figure in the background
that's already been done some. i thought warren is a business owner and has sunk a lot of his own money in to the xavier school and maybe other projects.

>>152010988
I liked the Warren/Betsy relationship. They were both privileged rich kids that were physically altered by a villain.

File: beastpsylocke.jpg (115 KB, 585x377)

115 KB JPG

>>152007848
yeah what was the deal with them? why did they stop dating in the first place?

if we could dump cyclops and jean grey, but make angel and psylocke the next power power couple, i'd be very pleased with that

psylocke should be paired with someone

>>152011354
The ending of X-Force was Archangel trying to end the world and Betsy killing him with a Life Seed, which wiped both Archangel and Warren and generated a new, amnesiac Angel.

>>152011395
>generated a new, amnesiac Angel
oh yeah, I remember that from the Wolverine academy comic, it was funny seeing him act like a retard ngl

>>152011395
>amnesiac angel
damn that sucks. i forgot about that. maybe he could get those memories back. feels like sort of an asspull. how far back did the amnesia go? did he forget his childhood?

>>152011747
He forgot everything, he became an entirely new person. It was so unnerving that the time-displaced teenage version of himself started breaking down and crying. It was undone eventually.

>>152001119
I like when they had him start fucking cannonball's little sister in midair

>>152011252
maybe it was avoided for a while specifically because they thought it’d be too on the nose

Kind of weird if so though, since Angel was always pretty underpowered and even an obvious buff would have still benefitted him

>>152011313
>you'd think the angel/demon looking guys would have already been a thing, or shown up as a relevant plotline in midnight sons or d.r strange or something
Anon, you have given me a terrible idea. I must act on it immediately.

>>152012676
If they let him keep using firearms it would be okay.

>>152011252
Because angels are explicitly not associated with healing in the Bible. Quite the opposite.

>>152012975
>>152013773
That's why they gave him the soul sword for a short while back in the early 00s. Made him more angel-ish while giving him a weapon.

In the 80s he was more bird themed. That's when they came up with the hollow bones, and the capable of breathing at high altitudes thing. And he also had eagle eyes that let him see perfectly from a few miles away. Later writers forgot he had that.

It was never stated that the blue skin ever gave him any extra kind of durability, but as Archangel he was capable of flying faster than sound so he should have had some special level of protection from friction and sonic booms. Or maybe the blue and magenta costume helped with that.

>>152014530
That's less bird-themed and more "realistic" themed. I don't know why they're so adverse to giving him guns; give him some cool sci-fi shit to go along with the Archangel identity.

>>152006922
>>>152006892 #
>one of the writers had beast claiming he was gay in the 2000s
Source?

>>152015647
Morrison, it was Morrison and Hank was specifically doing it to taunt his ex-gf.

>>152015686
it was also Hank saying something to the extent of "If some gay kid gets something out of me being gay, that's okay"

>>152009098
because Chuck is a baby boomer who will die holding the lever

>>152001087
Who?

File: lineup.png (3.47 MB, 1539x1480)

3.47 MB PNG

>>152014982
>give him guns
i agree. it would work really well in another x-force arc

>>152017396
Modern X-Force has a concept problem because it works under the premise that all the other X-Men teams are ineffectual at protecting mutants while at the same time has then engaging in the exact same heroics with a b-movie action film filter.

>>152017568
X-Force only has two possibilities of working as a concept.
Go back to being a government liason between mutants and the government.

OR

Being the mutant wetworks/demolition group. Ala the original version.

>>152017568
>concept problem
if that was fixed, i think the focus is addressing that the severity and extremes some characters are willing to take are taken for granted, or overhyped, or have no impact on the other x-titles. the level of importance should be shifted around and evened out. instead of a derivative comic, have a year where x-factor or x-force are the main story, with regular x-men in the background, and each title can get their spotlight in alternating years or arcs

>b-movie action film
yeah it's a shame it doesn't vacillate between action film, maudlin, ultra-violent, and ww1/battle of jabiim level slog.

on the other hand, x-force in krakoa was just plot device asspull after plot device asspull like the other titles. it also was an example of precisely what you just described. the entire economy of krakoa hinged on the bullshit beast was successful at doing, at the cost of his character and the open ambivalence of the council who gave him carte blanche to do everything he did. so there's a problem of goals being ineffectual, or in the case of beast, all of the other characters' reaction to maintaining krakoa's economy was ineffectual, and the way the writers' used him was ineffectual

>>152018303
I prefer your second option.

File: DARK WARREN ANGEL.jpg (1.46 MB, 2666x3555)

1.46 MB JPG

The X-Men #1 (1963): His first appearance.

X-Factor #24: This is his first appearance as Archangel, metal wings and all.

Dark Angel Saga (Uncanny X-Force #8-18): Very well told story that delves into his psyche and relationship with Apocalypse.

>>152001087
His powers tend to suck

OG Worthington is just some rich pretty boy with angel wings.
His apocalypse bloodline awakening that turned him into archangel was a good change and made him more interesting but you can only squeeze so much EDGE from that bladed wing.
His angel powers and mystcial connection was cool but none of the jews on staff wanted to go too deep into that because...well you know. Plenty of satanic guys though..which is telling.

A mixture of the two where he's some nigh horrifying angelic form and has three sets of wings that can sprout bladed wings with heavens fire out of his back would be way too much I believe but it seems cool

File: Thomas Halloway.jpg (88 KB, 427x400)

88 KB JPG

>>152017396
>>152014982
he's Angel, not The Angel

>>152005413
he doesn't have enough eyes or wheels for that

>>152005274
Ha!

>>152018845
This is why >>152001107 happened. Writers see his powers kind of suck for adventuring/fighting superpowered bad guys. So they fuck around with the concept.

>wings, can fly...that's it
>Metal wings, fly at mach-1, shoot blades at people, slice guys with gigantic wing swords
>Feather wings, his blood can heal people
>Feather wings, but they glow for some reason, he can shoot glowy stuff from his eyes
>Feather wings, but they are cosmic and fiery, can fly in space and shoot energy at people
>Can switch between normal wings and blue Archangel form whenever...

Warren worked in the context of the 60s X-Men who had powers that kind of sucked, and mostly were on the very low end of the power scale. Hank was just really agile with good equilibrium, Iceman could not make that much ice or turn into it, Jean could only lift about 10-20lbs and was limited to line of sight. A guy that just flies fits into that group.

>>152001087
when I first saw him I thought the wings were artificial and never really got why he was hanging with the X-Men. They do look like some kind of edgy cyborg wings when they are metal like that.

>>152003608
>never understood the love for iceman before he was turned gay
Well, he wasn't gay.

>>152001087
His original powerset just really isn't suited to fighting crime.
The characters that fly do that in addition to other things, not as a main thing.
As it stood his power was being a big, obvious target with no cover.

File: file.png (2.04 MB, 1120x1600)

2.04 MB PNG

>>152020849
A lot of 60s Marvel heroes started out with kinda crappy abilities.
Like as lackluster as Angel is he beat Iron Man by just outlasting his batteries.

>>152020849
Outside of Magneto, most mutants in the early days had some kind of slightly more evolved aspect as a superpower. Like Blob's extra durable layer of fat, Banshee's much stronger vocal chords, Toad having stronger than normal legs, to Beast having excellent balance and control with all his limbs. It's that Carnival Freakshow level of normal attributes slowly edging into superpower territory. With an extremely rare few actually having superpowers, but usually low level psychic powers of some kind like Pyro's pyrokinesis. Unus, Mastermind, Mesmero, and Sebastian Shaw are still mostly using very specific types of telekinesis and telepathy.

But it turns out readers really like amazing superpowers so everyone in the entire company was scaled up over time.

>>152020994
This is probably the best showcase for his kind of flight. Although Banshee and later Sunfire being faster in the air because they use propulsion that is tied to their biology makes him feel disappointing even during the original run.

>>152003608
Why do people like any superhero?

>>152011317
Yeah I forget that could be an easy point of connection. Haven't read a lot of X-Men but I guess they don't really touch upon that, huh?
It is also kinda weird how each of the x-couples has contrasting opposites as powers or synergistic powers. Kitty and Colossus have density, Rogue and Gambit take or give a lot of energy, Psylocke and Angel have wing-themes to their powers (Psylocke's butterflies) but they also have sharp edged weapons, Storm and Forge (electricity/machinery) or Wolverine (metal), etc.
Where it breaks down is Polaris and Havok I guess. Iceman if not gay, would probably be with Firestar. Justice always seemed a bit lame. Has Nightcrawler ever had a significant love interest?
>>152020994
>>152021102
Man I miss powers being on even playing fields a lot and also having more fights that had creativity. Also early arcs where powers are more subdued kinda feel more like they have stakes.

>>152023665
>Has Nightcrawler ever had a significant love interest?
His first girlfriend, Amanda Sefton/Jimaine Szardos, was a witch.

>>152023665
>Where it breaks down is Polaris and Havok I guess
Not power but both are irrelevant younger siblings.

>>152023819
Polaris wasn't a younger sibling at the time. They kneecapped her almost as soon as she was created.

File: Amanda.png (296 KB, 640x452)

296 KB PNG

>>152023784
>Magik
Did she get that codename first before Illyana?
Daytripper is ok I guess. Can't do Daywalker.
Her designs probably need updating. Kinda wish her powers had a more specific focus. I was thinking instead of just blanket magic and a sword, she'd have time to go with Kurt's space. She'd make zones people step into that would have slow or fast time or she could make objects/people move fast or slow when thrown/moved.
>French
Eh I kinda wish the love interest was like an autistic science gal but eh, whatever.

>>152018303
>>152018617
The problem is why do the X-Men need a wetworks group? They're already an insular paramilitary that answers only to themselves and haven't had a problem with killing for years in-universe.

>>152024471
Because.

>>152024471
Influence from action movies, before the x-men were more militant students than military.

>>152024040
>Did she get that codename first before Illyana?
No, somewhere around 15 years later. She held the name for a little bit in the year 2000. Can’t remember much else about it.

>>152020994
The X-Men had existed for literally just a few months, the book was barely on #3 or #4, Angel guest stars in an Iron Man story and goes on a rampage when radiation turns him evil.

>>152024040
>Did she get that codename first before Illyana?

17 years later, but Illyana had been dead for 7 years by then and wasn't resurrected for another 7 years

Sefton would still be Magik if Marvel hadn't been on the verge of bankruptcy and handed the X-Men over to Grant Morrison to turn to shit, a move which, ironically, left the X-Men selling worse than they had in years at a time when the Avengers were experiencing a resurgence under Bendis of all people

I can't think of any broadly unpopular child characters who were killed off for pathos in 2002 who might be resurrected in a weirdly sexual way in 2026, but you never really know

>>152023665
>Yeah I forget that could be an easy point of connection. Haven't read a lot of X-Men but I guess they don't really touch upon that, huh?
They kind of do at the beginning. Warren and Betty have a conversation about how weird it is to get up in the morning and see someone else's face in the mirror.

another fun connection with Gambit and Rogue was that Gambit could not control his powers either and hated them. The reason why he worked for Sinister in Mutant Massacre was so Sinister would tone his powers down and make them controllable. Before he could not touch anything without making it explode. So their connection was Rogue could not touch anybody, Gambit could not touch any object. He was also afraid to touch people.

>>152024471
It made sense back when it was Cable's team. He was doing the Terminator 2 thing and trying to prevent the horrible future from happening by killing people that needed killing.

>>152005413
Acute or Obtuse?

>>152020994
>>152025666
Eve then, Iron Man kind of sucked until the 80s. His usual means of creating challenge was running out of power. He had those little generator roller skates for a reason, and the pre-90s armors were not loaded down in different gadgets and high tech equipment that handled every single situation that came along. He tended to run out of power in the middle of a fight a lot.

He could fly, was pretty strong, and could shoot lasers, with one really good laser on his chest that always left him drained so it was a last resort. He was a decently even matchup to guys like Spymaster, Melter, Unicorn, Dredknight, Blacklash (when he just had a plain ol whip) and no rings kungfu Mandarin.

>>152026746
You expect God's Angles to be anything but 100% equilateral?

>>152026772
I think it's fairer to say that most Marvel writers before the 1980s didn't care about power levels at all, and the hero would be as powerful as he needed to be for this month's villain. Sometimes Spider-Man could be trading punches with the Rhino or Scorpion, sometimes he'd be having a hard time fighting the Enforcers or Kingpin. Sometimes Iron Man's going toe to toe with Titanium Man or Controller, sometimes he's struggling with Scarecrow back when he was just a contortionist with trained birds. The Cobra started out as a Thor villain, Boomerang as a Hulk villain. It's not really until the 80s that you start getting writers who start thinking if a hero can beat the top tier villains in his rogues gallery he should one-shot the lesser guys like they were nothing, and in retrospect that's largely been a mistake for a lot of those villains. Especially when it quickly turned into writers treating it as "if Iron Man can one-shot Stilt-Man or the Beetle, it means they're losers and any hero can do it". From there it was a slippery slope to the modern mentality where there's a handful of A-list villains who are an actual threat and everyone else is just a jobber.

>>152026444
>broadly unpopular child character
Are you talking about something specific here?
>>152026686
If I were Gambit I would've put on a mask and have Rogue put on a mask and then just hiug her pretty hard and rub my face on her face. Just like clothes on sex or whatever. It would've been awkward but even just holding her close would've made me feel better.
Betsy is something I kinda wish she had more presence in other media. Just to get people more aware of the body swap so that it wasn't as jarring and could be built up as an arc.

>>152026444
IIRC Sefton was the new Magik well into the 2000s, it's just nobody really used her much after 2000. She showed up in a Nightcrawler solo book and that was about all until someone decided to bring Illyana back. It's not really something that can be directly traced to Morrison taking over X-Men in 2001. Sefton as Magik was a Claremont thing and he was still writing one or more books through most of the 2000s and just didn't use her.

File: 1765028244593695.jpg (154 KB, 691x1023)

154 KB JPG

>>152026444
>>152027206
I've always really liked Amanda, but it's rough being a non-mutant love interest in X-Men.

File: 1740716021095470.jpg (96 KB, 825x413)

96 KB JPG

>you mean I've been fucking my sister for months? score!

>>152027435
Well, he IS Bavarian…

>>152027009
It's also caused an issue in reverse, in that heroes are being treated as more powerful than they really are which causes issues when depicted with their actual abilities.

>>152027403
if she was still around she'd be a mutant by now, like poor Firestar :(

>>152027580
Firestar's always been a mutant.

>>152027621
we have always been at war with venezuela

>>152027009
Not always.

There were a lot of situations in the 70s where Thanos was just fucking up every single person that came to him. Loads of villains were just not going to start shit with Silver Surfer, or Thing gets his ass handed to him by someone well outside his weight class.


Marvel had a stricter adherence to power tiers than DC ever attempted though. Spider-Man was slapping the X-Men around in the 60s, Captain America was constantly getting into fights he knew he could never win but had to survive long enough for Thor or Hercules to come save him. Silver Surfer powered Doom just fucked up everyone that he met too. The FF were not capable of actually handling Blastaar or Super Skrull in a direct fight either.

DC wold have Batman get into a tussel with Two Face and be evenly matched one week, but then to handle Despero over in JLA. Aquaman would wrestle giant sea monsters one month, and then struggle in a wrestling match with a normal human.

>>152027435
They aren't related by blood, so it is okay.

>>152027659
Firestar was a mutant when she was first introduced in comics and she was a mutant in Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. There's never been a time when she wasn't a mutant.

>>152027755
She was introduced in comics as one of White Queen's Hellions so she was a mutant in her first appearance there too.

>>152027659
Both are true btw