Where did this trope of characters explaining their own flaws and character arcs come from?I absolutely hate it. Not only is it completely unnatural, no one speaks like this, it undermines the characters by making them seemingly self aware of their flaws the whole time yet doing different.Worst of all is it's literally just the writer jacking themselves off to the audience about the characters they've written and their own writing. Every single time it's shit and feels like ass, but I'm only seeing more of it. Why can't writing speak for itself? If you have to explain your emotional depth maybe you did a shit job of actually conveying it.
>>152009313anon it's normal and healthy to self-evaluate and realize your own flawsthat's how you improve them
Creators and audiences are getting increasingly narcissistic + retarded. I blame the world wide web.
>>152009313therapy and its consequences of have been a disaster for the writing race
>>152009313Audiences are too dumb for subtext nowadays
>>152009378I don't disagree with that and didn't in the OP.But when's the last time you've shown perfect understanding of your own character and explained it to someone else?The reason people go to therapy is because other people do that for you. Few, almost a minute number of people actually have that level of understanding of themselves even if they think they do. Even fewer can then explain that. If you are somehow THAT self aware, you would already be improving instead of waiting until a story climax to reflect any change. That's why it feels unnatural and is an awful writing device. It makes the characters unbelievable and like I said, is nothing more than a self congratulatory wank of a writer that feels the need to spell out their attempts at character development to you. It's shit but I see more of it.
>>152009685>But when's the last time you've shown perfect understanding of your own character and explained it to someone else?anon do you not have friends
>>152009758I think you're conflating knowing yourself and character flaws and understanding yourself on a deep level to know why you do what you do, which is generally what people go to therapy for. Most people are not that self aware. Even if you think you are, you're probably not. Therapy wouldn't exist if people understood themselves like this and the root causes of their behaviour. That's why it sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't know the last time I've said anything like the OP to friends or family. Do you? Either way, none of this changes the fact that it's a poor writing device because it's telling rather than showing, and it's self congratulating.
>>152010083>Do you?yes, a few years ago
>>152009313You could argue that it's a descendant of soliloquy. A character monologues to the audience about his situation and what his character feels. He'll go on about how he's a rogue and peasant slave, and this here is his why. In the situation you're describing, the speaker is just using another character instead in place of a literacy device.Well, I doubt the writers think of it like that. I always figured it was a way of making it obvious for people who are only half-watching. Clip for YouTube and award shows, pl0x.
>>152009403Honestly this. If you want to convey a specific aspect of a character, you have to basically have them outright explain it, otherwise your dumbass audience will more often than not make an incorrect assumption and base their entire perspective of the character based on that. In addition, making a big dramatic scene where a character lays out their flaws and explains how another character fixes said flaws is a stupid easy way to get gullible audience members sniffling and dabbing their eyes with their handkerchiefs, since you basically just explained to them why they should be crying.
>>152010573I don't believe that's true
>>152009313People raised on believing that therapy is a cure-all and likely consuming a lot of other media where things like that were normal because it was made mostly by geeks writing for autists or people who otherwise needed things spelled out for them (CRPGs, comic books, anime, etc.).
>>152012198I mean, if they believed that, they wouldn't say they suffered from so many mental issues. They'd all be cured.
>>152009313This scene was meant as a joke, OP. Even the beaver commented that they were "oversharing".
>making them seemingly self aware of their flaws the whole time yet doing different.This is a much more realistic mindset than you think.
>>152009313Two words: TikTok
>>152013203You're not supposed to point out the obvious. You must play along with OP's spergout.
>>152009313Lazy writers who worship therapy and wallow in self-pity
>>152009403ThisIts basically made for people who put movies on in the background and aren't focused. Things need to be spelled out for them.
>>152010453You’re giving these idiot writers way too much fucking credit anon
>>152009313Therapy speak has simply become very very trendy. Genuinely I think the general population is very distressed or at the very least the internet has changed how that mass distress takes form. At least partially has to do with an academic push for people to be more emotionally intelligent (or perhaps, internalize blame for shortcoming rather than challenge society) which in itself is not a bad thing (although it has resulted in the worst kinds of people learning to be even more manipulative). As a (hopefully) temporary drawback is that children's media (which almost always spells everything out for young audiences) has characters talk like this. Now again, kids media does typically get a little preachy, but there's no need for adult media to get like this.
>>152010453Yeah, this over the top summary or saying is not exactly new to media. It's just trendy right now and annoying.
>>152013203>>152013265lmao. the absolute state of this place.
>>152009403My instinct is to argue against this: literary reading or watching is a skill that is developed with use. But the last few years in fandom have exposed me to the dumbest. Fucking. People. With the most assbackwards takes. It's the artistic dilemma of "I don't want to spoonfeed my audience but I want at least more than half of them to understand"
>>152009313Marvel.
>>152009313I blame the internet. We live in a time when any time a product becomes successful, it has literally thousands of autists with no critical thinking skills gang up on it to tear it apart with every bad faith interpretation imaginable, and some that aren’t. It’s gotta be increasingly tempting to just spoonfeed them everything. This is not restricted to character flaws, either.I’m aware there are plenty of examples of better written material that came out post creation of the internet. But I think this phenomena took a while to kick in and gets worse and worse as more generations grow up with it normalized. Combine that with the fact that marketing execs want to cater to the lowest common denominator, and it just gets worse the higher up you go in successful studios and companies who are pressured to please their shareholders. Also, with disney in particular, there's the issue that their movies are made with big teams of writers and artists that produce films by committee, and you got a too many cooks in the kitchen issue.
>>152009758People don't own up to their mistakes and flaws in real life either, but it's pretty ironic to post that on 4chan where people can say something objectively wrong, get proven it was wrong and still lash out and act like the most intelligent person in the thread.
>>152013511Assholes don't.Which I suppose is anyone that posts on 4chan.
>>152013203>>152013265It's bad writing. Adding a quip at the end that "lol oversharing xD" doesn't change the fact that you did telling not showing which is lazy bad writing. If anything, it just shows how insincere everything has gotten that there always has to be a quip in there.
>>152013540Oh please, you don't either but you're lying to make yourself look better and in the process you're proving my point.
>>152009313>no one speaks like thisIt’s called “therapy speak,” and I assure you, they do.
>>152013563The crazier a bitch is, the more likely they are to wildly misuse it.
>>152009313Could it be written in a sort of "less is more" approach? With subtext?
Remember, it's better to kill yourself because of ptsd than it is to seek therapy.
>>152009394this site used to string you scientologist fucks up
>>152010083aren't you mistaking your own personal experience for the general experience of others? why would asking random anons on a site not exactly known for wise introspection or consideration of the inner lives of others be the best place to start determining whether, in fact, you are simply a sheltered individual
>>152013671They're still around? Thought they all went into hiding when they got exposed as being fucking cultists.
>>152010453Yeah this kind of moment is a normal movie tentpole the issue is writing. But in this case that seems like the joke >>152013203
>>152009313>>152009403Attention spansNo seriously, movies are written with people looking at their phones in mind
>>152009313It's this >>152013563 and the fact it's a kids movie so we need to wrap the movie up quick and not care about a more subtle method of writing that will eat into the movie being longer so instead let's just have characters say what they feel and leave.
>>152010083People do talk like this now and can be truly self-aware with it. I think it’s fine in a kids movie but I agree that that kind of thing can feel too “telly” in fiction.>>152013693nta but it’s how human personality works. The ego structure has a blindspot built in and a belief system influencing choices. When you become self aware enough to change either there is literally always more to learn about why you do what you do.
>>152013260But that's one word.
>>152014047>>152013671Reddit>>152009394True
>>152009313What is this trope call again?
>>152009313
>>152017057
>>152016936Exposition? Although it's a literary device, not a trope.
>>152013365>>152013203>>152014479Look, the scene was used as an example of the last time I saw it happen. I didn't say this was the only instance of it happening, no where in the OP text do I mention Zootopia. I'm talking about the writing trope. Even if it was played off for laughs it's still doing it. Humour doesn't stop the writing exhibiting those traits. >>152013545Thank you for understanding the point. I don't know if people genuinely aren't understanding this or just feel the need to defend Zootopia. I actually like both films, some of you cunts need to relax it's not an attack on your franchise.
>>152009313>it undermines the characters by making them seemingly self aware of their flaws the whole time yet doing differentKnowing you're one way and being able to change it are two very different things.
Explain your flaws and correct them, or in comedies, play into them.
>>152017057kek
>>152011938look at how fans talk about TADC if you want proof
>>152014047Therapists and "psych 101" goers are just trained manipulators who rarely use their skills for good. And almost always have fucked up innerlives.
>>152014501Pretty much.They want to shove in more elk and tiger singer then waste time on characterization.Besides it works for what it's worth. Depth is not what this children's and tired adults movie is all about.
>>152020041You really think all therapists are just manipulators?
>>152013484Marvel Cinematic Universe, to be precise.
>>152013484>>152020694You can't blame Marvel for all that's wrong with CinemaThings already have to be trending a certain way for them to gain popularity in the first placeIt's not like they were breaking trends
>>152009378stop being little bitch
>>152020976mcutards are Definitely at fault about for making superhero genre getting replaced with looney troonie version of it, completely without any Sincerety, without FEELING , The Avengers 2012 (ie MCU #1 by the actual fact) is The direct Why every single thing in Big Two right now is worse than it should be. Altho, without bad there is no good and in the end it will be an Ultimate good. Still tho.
>>152021264Yeah they've undoubtedly had an effect on movies and in particular superhero ones but they were just building on writing that was already getting popular
>>152014492I know Netflix media is but I'm not sure theatre films are
>>152021741well...True. Stuff existed before MCU but not in That manner
>>152013540You don't seem very self aware anon if you're calling everyone here assholes
>>152020058>>152014501>Depth is not what this children's and tired adults movie is all about.But why not is my question. What has happened to make us trend this way to where we're regressing back to "it's for kids so doesn't matter if it's basic/bland/shit"? There are plenty of kids movies that do have emotional depth and that don't have their characters spelt out. But increasingly, and honestly not only in childrens media, this kind of thing seems more popular. .But I don't get where it's come from and why it's had a rise/ It's just too self promoting for me, as if to say "look what I wrote". It leaves less room for interpretation of characters as well, which can be a fun topic of discussion.
>>152009313Bad writing isn't a "trope".
>>152023231What would you describe those kind of scenes as though? I don't think it's apt to just call it "bad writing" when there are multiple instances of it across different media. Isn't that what makes it a trope? Could be wrong though
>>152009378But I don't have any flaws.
>>152009313shounen probably
>>152023246NTA but I term I always use is to describe these scenes is "the expository crashout".
>>152020694No, Marvel comics in the 50s and 70s and 80s.
>>152013323Apparently on Netflix this is tagged as "casual viewing." The ideal form of content for the mba executive class is some kind of white noise that's played endlessly.
>>152023267he didn't mean you champ, he meant the rest of us
>>152013693>>152014710>>152013563>People do talk like this now and can be truly self-aware with it>aren't you mistaking your own personal experience for the general experience of others?Yeah I did consider that, you're right. it's why I asked anon if they've talked like that themselves which they confirmed >>152010242 and I feel is fairI'm open to the discussion and appreciate it.I can honestly say I've not encountered it myself. To be clear, I'm talking in an actual real life conversation scenario. I've definitely seen people post images or memes containing elements of this, but never anything that was a self aware insight into all their actions leading up to a point like these are. I've had people talk about their problems, and even what they think are causing those problems, or even character flaws. But I still feel all that is very different to this kind of writing where it's a detailed self diagnosis.It's usually professionals that dictate that. I just don't think self therapy is effective enough to build that understanding of yourself. An outside eye helps. But I do fully accept cultures and experiences are vastly different and it may be more of a thing than I know now. All that still doesn't diminish to me that it is an awful writing device however. Because these are characters you've written, so when you're explaining your own writing, you're making them fully self aware without fault in their self awareness. And I think that's a fatal flaw in characterisation even without getting into any other issues behind it. It also feels like a 4th wall break to me, even though it's not actually, because you're having your characters basically explain your script. It's an immersion killer.
>>152023192You’re right. >>152023246>>152023309I like this but it’s not a crashout in most uses, anon who compared it to soliloquy had a point. The focus on the expository purpose is better than “therapyspeak infodump” too.
>>152024550It bothers me because generally I don't like the whole "everything is shit now/thing were better before/writers can't write/audiences are dumb" explanations.Even if there's truth to them it's just a lazy narrative. I feel like there's still plenty of good media out there. This is one thing that's an instant eyeroll to me though
>>152021086>>152021264i don't get your images anon what are you trying to show
>>152010453True, monologues are useful though because they externalise thoughts that we otherwise wouldn't be privy to. When you make it an actual conversation it changes the dynamic completely. I do like your way of thinking about it though. I just still am curious why it's kicking off now and why most people don't seem to have any issue with it.
>>152025137His mental instability.
>>152009685>The reason people go to therapy is because other people do that for you. Few, almost a minute number of people actually have that level of understanding of themselves even if they think they do. Even fewer can then explain that. If you are somehow THAT self aware, you would already be improving instead of waiting until a story climax to reflect any change.Americans have this weird fetishization of therapy now.There's this idea that just speaking about the shit will make you magically realize what's wrong. A therapists job is basically tricking you into realizing it.I remember a theory being posed that it's because the average friendship these days is far weaker and people are viewing therapy as like, an eternal non-judgmental venting buddy rather than someone whose job is to help you yourself find out how to confront the distortions and shortcomings.That's where scenes like this come from. The idea that simply talking about this shit is the biggest breakthrough you can possibly have
>>152013563This isn't therapy speak. Therapy speak is the adult version of "sodium chloride" from Jimmy Neutron. It's using academic and clinical terms in a casual setting, to make yourself look smart or like you're actually trying to give a fair assessment.>Using "narcissist" in place of "asshole" to make it seem like you're giving an assessment rather than trying to insult.>talking about the "toxicity of blame and shame culture" as a blanket "don't judge me!">Pulling a Jonah Hill (talking about "boundaries" as a means of controlling someone else)The ultimate goal of therapy speak is that you're pretending to psychologically or sociologically analyze those around you but really just using whatever terminology to gain favor by making it seem like you have everyone's best interests at heart using your "vast" (psych 100 and sociology 100 which are required secondary courses for most majors) education
>characters explaining their own flaws and character arcsAny examples where the character does this but is just completely wrong about themselves and its not even made into a joke or anything you're just sitting there watching a dense character cause a misdirection while the scene is being delivered with sap?
>>152025811not /co/ but that dragon age game had a scene where a character was doing an exposition dump on how doing push ups any time you've done wrong is better than saying sorry or something bizarre like that because of accountability i'm sure there are plenty of /co/ examples too
>>152025332>why most people don't seem to have any issue with itI think at least part of it is how the relationship with entertainment has changed.When you watch a good show or play a good game, how often do you sit there and digest it? Do you do that before or after you look for fanart or discussion about it? Most people, if they enjoyed it, will jump right into the positive stuff. Even if there were scenes that they found weak, they're not going to focus on those; it's much more appealing to see if others liked a character or moment as they did. Expository writing, along with many other flaws, will be ignored in favor of discussing the parts they liked. The most negative stuff you'll get from them is some throat-clearing.About the only time I see people critically examining a piece of medium is when they're, well, critical of it. They found something so unsatisfying about it that they go back and gather supporting evidence about why it's dumb. They'll often make note of writing they feel weak, such as this stuff.You're a lot more likely to get "I liked Zootopia, here's a cute picture of Judy" than "I liked Zootopia, but I felt this scene with Judy really dropped the ball because X Y and Z". Even years into an epidemic of Z, that's going to be the case.
>>152013501Fair points. It's a less cynical take than mine where I view it as the writer wanking themselves off in front of me for what they've written. I get the same feeling I got when Disney jerked themselves off in Wreck in Ralph 2 by making Vanellope go to Disney world and tell us how cool everything is.
>>152026873I think this is true on social media and the internet sucks more than it used to but I haven’t had the misfortune with people IRL
>>152017057can't believe I had to scroll this far for somebody to reference this
>>152009403I've noticed this weird media illiterate trend where audiences attack and get riled up over characters and their flaws, as if they were real people that had committed 'sins' and were in need of apologizing or were being put on trial in some bizarre morally confused way. If you're an asshole character that nobody likes and you break the narrative of the story, you should be an asshole character that nobody likes and you break the narrative of the story. Why are people so bothered by this that they're literally demanding apologies or explanations for the character's actions, like they were responsible or obligated to do something to appease fans who don't like the direction the writers are taking the story? The last time it happened was Hazbin Hotel when Charlie fucked up, and recently has even been seen with Lucy and the new Fallout season.
>>152028089It's mostly narcissism and autism.People self-insert so hard they have this complex where their brains go "But MY INSERT/ME/MYSELF wouldn't make that decision. Why is X doing Y when I am X and I would do Z instead?"So they cannot comprehend character flaws or actions that seem irrational or with different value systems and personalities than their own.
>>152009758nta, but should one's friends feel the need to say their flaws to them and don't say theirs to them and vice versa?
>>152028138Yeah, this kind of thinking is literally what created the Rationality movement. Granted, I can understand getting upset at incompetent writing (namely Charlie's handling under Vivzie's direction), but there's a BIG difference between:>this character made a selfish/moronic decision that was in-character AND I'M MAD HOW DARE THEY (let me ignore that they're not a real person)vs>this character made a selfish/moronic decision because the writing is ass and I'm pissed off
>>152009403Writers are too incompetent to write subtext nowadays anyways. That plus the proliferation of therapy speech is really what did it.
>>152009403Audiences being too dumb for subtext has been a problem for a long time. 9/11 and the economy crashing in 08 exposed this if you paid attention to how the movies released in this decade handled subtext when compared to what the 70s, 80s, and 90s did.Now everyone is glued to their phones, which lead to anxiousness becoming an epidemic (read the Anxious Generation for more on this topic), directly resulting in therapyspeak and PCness.
>>152025512It's really funny because a lot of people in America still don't even GO to therapy, but they've adopted therapyspeak from suckers who did go and internalized poor advice being espoused by bad therapists.Americans romanticize/fetishize therapy as a cure-all even when they have to ignore the reality of how it actually functions (and how it ISN'T helping). It isn't designed to help you get better unless you're specifically doing Cognitive Behavior Therapy (and actively seek it out). The average person will either go to a psychiatrist or psychologist (both are more concerned with tranquilizing you and getting you to manage problems rather than solve them) who will always manipulate you into talking about your problems or labeling them rather than actually fix them, and considering that "progress" in and of itself. It's not really a surprise that most of the population is hopped up on SSRIs. People would rather dull themselves or perpetuate abusive forms of self-medication and believe a comfortable lie rather than get to the root of their problems (which are familial and societal/systemic).
>>152009313I don't know but it's annoying and even Futurama lampooned it years before it became common.
>>152023246I've always believed one of the reasons for this type of dialogue is how American audiences (and certain creatives) are just uncomfortable with things being quiet or silent when it comes to movies and TV. There's a certain degree of vulnerability that comes with not saying anything, so it's considered taboo in America to NOT have something to say, if not dangerous. That's why blockbuster movies are always so noisy and talkative and leave little to the imagination when it comes to what isn't being said or shown directly. Ambiguity/being implicit is a big no-no. Having to self-reflect or control your emotions is un-American.
>>152009685The reason people go to therapy is to throw away a lot of money to talk to somebody. You could do that for free if you had friends. Or much cheaper if you went to the barber.
>>152029474People are going to label this as bigoted, but I honestly blame how diversity mandates resulted in more women entering writers' rooms. Most guys have NO IDEA just how common it is for women's fiction to have the characters always be emotionally vulnerable and wear their hearts on their sleeves for EVERYTHING. There is no sense of emotional self-control and classic Stoicism. It's always either emotional repression that over-corrects into emotional volatility, or emotional volatility that never stops.>guy anon who read a lot of thrift store romance/drama books and women's fanfiction as a kid
>>152027439this
>>152029381Therapy helped me.Then again I saw an actual psychologist for a specific issue and got told advice I put into practise with results.Can’t say it was perfect, but it’s on me to keep at it.
>>152029634Stoic is not the only philosopher.He’s only popular because one Emperor decided he liked it.
>>152009313therapy. it works irl and people that went through therapy learn to think in that way, so having characters also think in the way therapy enables comes naturally to them.
>>152009313You can't just have your characters announce how they feel. That makes me feel angry!
>>152026873I do think there's truth to this, but it's also driven by other factors. You see it here too now where if you're critical of something, people will attack you because they're adamant on defending the franchise. Brand loyalty is at an all time high and if you're a fan of something, questioning it is almost discouraged. I think there's room to enjoy something and criticise it. But you are right in that fandom/discourse is more often just post things you like with no real theme. But is that what led to a drop in standards?
>>152030267>Brand loyalty is at an all time high and if you're a fan of something, questioning it is almost discouraged. By design, likely. Which is a real killer to discourse.
>>152030338it's what keeps me here reallyI genuinely don't know any other site that promotes actual discussion. There's a mountain of shit to go through before you get it but at least it's there.It seems the main other places now are Twitter/Insta/Reddit/Discord. But I've never really understood how any actual discussion occurs in those places. They're not designed for it.
>>152030374They're cesspits. I miss when the internet was more decentralized, now everything is governed by algorithms.
>>152024194>It also feels like a 4th wall break to me, even though it's not actually, because you're having your characters basically explain your script. It's an immersion killer.yeah it felt a bit odd while i saw it in the cinema. did they ever talk like this before the scene? how long did their partners therapy sessions last for that judy and nick would pick up on the language?
>>152009313does judy ever apologise to nick for doing batshit stuff that nearly gets them killed?
>>152029381>>152029595i think for a lot of people just having that someone to talk to does make them feel betterbut as a psychiatrist it's probably hard to actually help said people get better because you can't advise their every move
>>152030473>did they ever talk like this before the scene?NoIn Zootopia 1, Nick does psycho analyse Judy a little by mocking her with the "small town girl with big city dreams wants to make a difference in the world" spiel, but that's still a world apart from self therapy.It'd have worked better if they showed the therapy session scenes in Zootopia 2 actually being a little effective for the pair and they have breakthroughs, but that's from a narrative standpoint and doesn't escape all the problems thsi kind of writing brings
>>152013339I do feel like I've seen it in both children and adult media. I recognise taboos around therapy are breaking and people are more emotionally aware, or, at least, think they're more emotionally aware but it's not a way I see people talk. I think most still lack self awareness. It's hard to build and we can make mistakes in that self awareness. Some people end up blaming their parents for their behaviour for example, but then later in life forgive them and realise it wasn't actually their parents at all but other factors that were present at the time that led to their behaviour.
Compare:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Ve4CtAEP4I feel like this scene in Stand By Me does it really well because it's Chris doing the talking about Gordie
>>152030948And Chris talking about himselfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DiiHbsJ1U
>>152025137naked st
>>152025374Mental instability is the only way anyone learns anything other than shitting their pants and crying.
>>152009313is this going to be more common as therapy becomes more popular until it's normal talk?
>>152032618Maybe in the USA lot of cultures don't openly talk like this though
>>152009313Because they're too retarded to show, so they tell.
>>152029634Well to be fair there's an established taboo already regarding men talking about their mental health, so it would stand to reason that content targeting the other sex is handled differently. A lot of men still don't and won't do it, which makes writing like this stand out because it's not the expected behaviour
>>152030267It's one of the reasons, at least.When people see how a certain topic is discussed, they tend to conform. If they see it again and again, they start to internalize it. Eventually, something that just went unquestioned becomes being not worth questioning. All the more so when, like you said, questioning feels discouraged in the first place.That said, I don't say it's a drop in standards so much as it is the emergence of new ones. Don't get me wrong, they aren't better standards, but it's not a case of just being less exclusive. They judge with a different set of criteria, not just a subset of what the previous generation did.To steal a movie another Anon posted and ramble a bit, I tend to think of it like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpBswphxCKYGordie tells a story, then Teddy gets upset because his understanding of stories is different than Gordie's. To him, a story can't just end like that. It's failing to meet his standards, and thus it sucks. Those standards are at ends with Gordie's, who gives a polite no thank you to Teddy's suggestion of something good.
What bothers me the most is the idea that talking things out, no matter how bluntly, works.
>>152029381>People would rather dull themselves or perpetuate abusive forms of self-medication and believe a comfortable lie rather than get to the root of their problems (which are familial and societal/systemic).This is why there is such a massive lonelyness issue. The root of the problem aren't things an individual can fix by themselves and is something purely up to outside forces. This is part of the reason why social movements are so appealing and worthless because they are movements ment to change the masses, which is something that is never going to happen.
>>152009313It's narration for people who are on their phones instead of watching the movie. Anyone who thinks it's any deeper than that is a retard.
>>152033103>What bothers me the most is the idea that talking things out, no matter how bluntly, works.I think often it actually can thoughBut what I've also found is often people don't actually know what to say to each other because we don't have these outbursts often. Like someone can tell you something deeply personal or a problem, and iti's not allways easy to know what to say in response or how to react. You can be a sound board, and that does help, but like you say you don't often provide solutions in that case so it can become not as effective. I wonder if other anons here deal with it differently when being confided in or when sharing their own experience?
>>152033159The term they like to use in the industry for this is Second Screen Content.
>>152009313Classical literature from apx 500BC
>>152009313Therapy is highly satanic because it disregards the feelings GOD gave YOU
>>152033103Honestly depends on the person or people you’re trying to talk things out with.
>>152028089Why do you believe this is really the thought process of these people and not that they are spiteful pessimists trying to squeeze a mL of schadenfreude out of pissing you off?
>>152033650I thought God gave me free will
>>152033665but it's up to you to sieze it
>>152033796Ok can i seize it by going to therapy?
>>152009313>it undermines the characters by making them seemingly self aware of their flaws the whole time yet doing different.That doesn't do that.
>>152009313>it undermines the characters by making them seemingly self aware of their flaws the whole time yet doing different.Anon you would be fucking shocked at the number of people in real life that do exactly that.
>>152009313>no one speaks like thisGuess what, ever seen or read Shakespeare? nobody talks like that. Also the reason they do it is because the audience wouldn’t get it otherwise
>>152009403>>152014492Audiences has always been too stupid
>>152009313You ignored the context.The reason why they announced their feelings this way was because they are supposed to be in partner therapy togheter.What bothers me is that they where taking it in the first place, but it fits.
>>152009313It was really annoying in Superman (2025). The movie was fine but his speech about how he's just a human stood out to me and not in a good way.
>>152009313Do you just not feel it's authentic to the dialogue? I assure you, people can vent that they're sorry for their problems affecting someone else, which is what the scene does. It's not beyond human communication to express regrettable behavior.I guess it's a clique scene (especially in a Disney film's third act) where characters have a detachment of some type. Perhaps because its a child's movie having such big themes as racism and assumptions, it's trying to show its themes in a subtle not so subtle way for children to understand. I don't think the writers are "stroking their egos" as it's more of a sudden catharsis moment for Judy, who'd only known Nick for 2 days, put to a film with an hour and a half of runtime. I'm not saying it's a great scene, it's a bit tacked on towards the 2/3 and other films such as Emperor's New Groove have done a better job with similar ideas. But I understand the thematic point towards it all and what it's trying to say.
>>152034124I'm referring to the writing style in general rather than Zootopia specifically. It's just the latest example so I used the imageI do think Zootopia has more of a case for it because they did therapy, but I also don't feel the movie did enough to actually show them learning ni therapy to justify the scene. Obviously you can say it's played for gags but there are a lot more issues that I've mentioned with it than just the characters themselves>>152033917I appreciate I made that point poorly and yes, many people are aware of their flaws yet can't, don't, or won't change them. You're right. But in the context of fiction I feel it's different because these moments are treated as realisation moments to justify their behaviour and have the audience "understand" them, but if they've known all along it just doesn't work for me because characters in fiction often have linear growth for the sake of audience satisfaction.
>>152034239>>Do you just not feel it's authentic to the dialogue?Honestly not whatsoever, it feels inauthentic. I don't want to sound like a broken record and keep repeating the issues I have with it, but I feel there's a difference between venting your own problems and why they're negatively affecting others, and perfectly describing your character arc in a film with no flaws and no room for interpretation. People don't understand themselves that well for the most part. Even people that do think they do, likely are seen differently by others who would attribute other things to their behaviour. It takes a lot of time and outside help to fully grasp yourself like that and even then you wouldn't completely manage it because we're the product of far too many factors. Which is why it's immersion breaking too. It reminds me these are just characters you've written for the sake of them to have arcs. >I don't think the writers are "stroking their egos"This I struggle to not see though. Even if it is indirect, you are basically explaining your own writing to the audience to tell them the depth you believe you've written instead of showing them. It's incredibly lazy and is nothing but self serving. I don't see how it isn't a "look at how well we wrote these characters! They're layered, see! And let me tell you how!"
What do people think of the scene in Kpop demon hunters where Mira, Zoe, and Rumi sit and talk about their flaws and Rumi isn't entirely open?I can't find a video of it so here's the transcript[The next morning, Rumi talks to her friends.]Rumi: Look, the last few weeks have been hard. And I admit, I haven't been at my best. But I know we can win tomorrow. We just have to sing the right song. And "Takedown" isn't...Mira: It's okay, Rumi.Zoey: We agree.Mira: It's not the song that's gonna connect all our fans.Zoey: It can't even connect us.Mira: I know our faults and fears must never be seen, but, look, I'm kind of a difficult person. Overly blunt, short-fused, highly aggressive. My whole life, those things were a liability. But somehow, with you guys, they're okay.Zoey: I feel the same way. Before I joined Huntrix, I felt like my thoughts and my lyrics and all my notebooks were just useless and weird. But with the two of you, they mean something. I mean something.Rumi: I'm afraid of losing you guys too. And that's why we have to finish this. All these fears, it's the demons talking. But tomorrow, we can win this war. And when the Honmoon is sealed, we will be free of these demons. Free of these fears forever. And then we can take a hiatus. Maybe go to the bathhouse?Mira: What?Zoey: The women's bathhouse, not the men's?Mira: I'll fight for a spa day with you.Zoey: Let's do it! Wait, what song are we singing?Rumi and Mira: "Golden."Zoey: "Takedown"! I mean "Golden." Definitely "Golden."Rumi: It's a song about the best of us.Mira: Rumi, your voice good to go?Rumi: Never been stronger.Zoey: Happy fans?Huntrix: Happy Honmoon!Zoey: Yeah!
>>152009685>If you are somehow THAT self aware, you would already be improvingBeing aware of a problem doesn't actually solve that problem. Solving is infinitely harder than noticing.
>>152034962you're right, i made that point poorly
>>152009313>Where did this trope of characters explaining their own flaws and character arcs come from?From audiences being too dumb to understand things they aren't explicitly told, coupled with the internet finally letting normies know there ARE deeper messages in a lot of their favorite media, and they were just too dumb to understand them because they weren't specifically stated in dialogue. 25+ years ago, creators were fine with telling a story and letting it fall on deaf ears if that was what happened. But now there's an even stronger drive to connect with audiences and create moments that drive engagement/likes/shares/retweets/whatever, so writing has devolved to match the lowest common denominator.Basically, this >>152009386. It was like letting midwits know that things like ADHD and autism exist, so now half of normie discourse is them all trying to explain how they have ADHD and autism. Giving unchecked access of knowledge and opinions to normies is highly unadvised. The less the normie knows, the better.
>>152009313>children's animated movie has writing that makes things clear for younger audiencesshocking.
>>152028138>So they cannot comprehend character flaws or actions that seem irrational or with different value systems and personalities than their own.This is a fucking staggering issue I've noticed as well. Overall, there's just a blurring of fiction and reality, and it feels like social media is to blame, even if I can't specifically say why right now. Perhaps people have just come to accept something that happens on a screen as readily (or perhaps even MORE readily) than they accept reality. Everyone is so used to being able to see idealized, optimized, clean cut distillations of every person, place, or concept in a 30-second tiktok or 140-character tweet, specifically made for them to easily digest that they want everything to match that blueprint, so they can consume thing and move on to next thing. Every second spent trying to analyze something they don't agree with or can't personally rationalize is a second wasted.And really, the more I think about it, I'm not saying this mindset is new. It's just that the internet and social media is making it worse. I think people used to be more comfortable with just moving on from something they don't understand, but now they're afraid of being left out. Humans used to be insects who would spend a majority of their lives in a single backyard, eating a single type of leaf and being happy about it. Now they're aware of all the other insects and yards and leaves out there and holy shit are they overwhelmed.
>>152030879>Some people end up blaming their parents for their behaviour for example, but then later in life forgive them and realise it wasn't actually their parents at all but other factors that were present at the time that led to their behaviour.But isn't it a parents job to offer a child the emotional toolkit and psychological grounding/support necessary to navigate life in general? Almost no "other factor" exists that has as much bearing over a kid's life as their own parents do, and it's weird to me that we pretend that. Parents literally have complete and total agency over their children from the moment they're born. The problem is that most parents don't realize how perceptive kids are, and how quickly they learn to emulate and suffer from their parents bad behavior, even when it's not directed at them. Kids use their parents as a blueprint for pretty much everything. They only turn elsewhere when a parent makes themselves unavailable, or denies acceptance. Which is the parents' fault.Honest to goodness, I think the issue is that the average kid is 1000% more perceptive than their parents realize. Parents forget what it was like to know nothing and have an insatiable thirst for input and acceptance. This is why giving a kit a tablet or phone is such an effective babysitter—it's infinite input and acceptance in handheld form.
>>152034178You really Felt it huh
>>152028089The mentality of "the author must support everything a character does" makes sense if you only consume self-indulgent media, because in fanfiction that is essentially true. It's just people with fanficrot brains treating more complex narratives that are supposed to challenge the viewer the same way as self-indulgent wish fulfillment porn made to give the audience everything they want.
>>152035240yes because children today are younger than ever before
>>152035240Yeah it's a kid's cartoon I'm not sure what people are expecting, the writing in kid's shows is almost never subtle.
>>152033159>>152033619Or third screenShit writing on purpose
