Tom Brevoort opposed redeeming Beast, in the manner of Jim Shooter's stance during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Brevoort criticized the reset of Beast's character through resurrection, feeling it let him off too easily. Now in control, Brevoort is steering X-Men stories to retain a darker, morally complex Beast in the narrative. Upcoming X-Men arcs will feature both versions of Hank McCoy, fueling deep ethical and identity conflicts.I am reminded very much of Jim Shooter, Jean Grey and the Dark Phoenix Saga, here. Shooter wrote decades later, of editor Jim Salicrup, and creators Chris Claremont and John Byrne; "When I read the X-Men make-ready that included the scene in which Phoenix destroyed a Shi'ar starship, killing hundreds, and an inhabited planet, killing billions, curious, I asked Jim Salicrup to show me whatever else was done on the storyline. Because Claremont and Byrne were very efficient, on time and professional, the next several issues were well along. The climactic issue was still in the plot stage, I think. I think Byrne had not yet begun to pencil it. At any rate, I discovered that Chris (and John) had backed down from the idea of Phoenix becoming the X-Men's Doctor Doom. The plot indicated that Phoenix would somehow be mind-wiped and let go. Back to living at the Mansion, hanging around with Storm and company, sitting at the same table for lunch, etc. That, to me, would be like taking the German army away from from Hitler and letting him go back to governing Germany.
>>152141771Gay
>>152141771Did you know? Hank McCoy nuked Gwen's grave.
>>152141771"Did I have a "moral" issue with that? Yes. More than that, it was a character issue. Would Storm sit comfortably at a dinner table with someone who had killed billions as if nothing had ever happened? Nah. I don't know whether most people grok this idea, but the Editor in Chief is charged with governing, managing and protecting all of the characters. It was my job to make sure the characters were in character, and I was the final word on what "in character" was. Not Chris, not John, not any freelancer. The company relied upon me to manage and protect the company's intellectual properties."I told Chris that the ending proposed in his plot didn't work. It wasn't workable with the characters, and in fact was a totally lame cop-out, storywise. I demanded a different ending. Chris–enraged–asked me just what that might be. I suggested that Phoenix be sent to some super-security interstellar prison as punishment for her crimes. Chris said that the X-Men would never stop trying to rescue (?!) her and that the story would become a loop. I said that then he should come up with an ending."I wasn't privy to Chris and John's conversations that night, but whatever. The next morning, Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer–they'd have to kill Phoenix. I said fine. I don't think he expected me to say that, since killing characters just wasn't done in those days. Chris waffled a bit, but then I became insistent! She's dying. That's it. Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane. I insisted on the "solution." It was done–brilliantly, if reluctantly–by Chris and John. And that's was the issue that propelled the X-Men to the top for, what, two decades?"
Tom Brevoort, the Senior Vice President, Executive Editor and X-Men Group Editor at Marvel Comics, just gave a big interview to AIPT, in which he talked about the character of The Beast. Who, as Bleeding Cool reported, had turned full mad scientist fascist running Krakoa, including torture, experimentation and murder of innocents. The finale of which saw the Beast die, but an earlier version of himself resurrected and redeemed using the Krakoan Protocols, without the memories of his current self. But then, recently, in the Rising From The Ashes issues, it was revealed that this version of The Beast did not die, but was revived, restored as the Chairman of the mutant activist terrorist group 3K, now with knowledge of the future of the Age Of Revelation. And it seems that it's the result of Tom Brevoort having his own Jim Shooter moment. Tom Brevoort said, "When Jordan D. White and Ben Percy were first laying this all out and revealed their resolution — essentially killing off the bad Beast and introducing a new, younger Beast who was from the past and never even involved with Krakoa, I didn't love that. It felt like you let the character do all of this stuff and make all of these morally gray compromises, and then you're washing his hands by going, here's a fresh one who didn't do any of that stuff, and it's all OK now."However, Tom Brevoort wasn't in charge of the X-Men at the time. And now he is. So he got a chance to fix it.
>>152141827"So when I was taking over X-Men, I started looking over the lay of the land and felt we had to do something with this, especially given that the specific world we're entering into is a world that has itself already passed beyond the two poles of the X-Men — Xavier and Magneto. While they're still there and around, we've kind of evolved beyond them in this new post-Krakoa landscape. The question is, who are the characters that are going to be the poles and the pillars of this new world? And it's always easy to come up with characters who are heroic and positive, but who are the darker characters in this? And boy, the idea of Beast as a darker character seemed appealing in that environment.""You have a paradigm that essentially boils down to Cyclops and Beast. Or even Beast and Beast. That's super good fodder. So we talked to Jordan about it and told him early on we're definitely keeping him around. But it's been a part of Jed's plan and our plan right from the jump. The Chairman's been Beast all along, going back to that hidden QR code page in X-Men #1. X-Men #23 is out now, and X-Men #24 is all about that original version of Hank McCoy. It's 20 pages of 3K and exactly who he is, exactly what he's about, and what 3K's about. That's the second of the two Age of Revelation epilogue issues before we put the gas down again and propel ourselves forward into the next bunch of stories."Of course, the influence of the Beast stretched further than the X-Men, into the Avengers and the Defenders… "Beast has relationships with everyone. Not just all of the main X-Men characters, but also characters beyond the X-Men family. And while he's become radicalized over the course of his life due to the experiences that he's lived, those relationships still exist. So there's just so much meat on the bone there for a character to have to grapple with the ethics and the ethos of the life he's living."
>>152141771>brevoort sucking bendis cockyup>morally complexit isn't complex at all. writers made him do things that were completely fucking out of character that didn't make sense for him, which is doubly stupid when there is already an evil version of beast (dark beast) from a different timeline, that could do those things, and not only that but it was all presented in the stupidest way possible, when dark beast has been shown to be an incredibly clever and crafty antagonist.
>>152141834So, how long will the Beast be kept in the dark about his darker self and 3K?"And it immediately opens up a whole bunch of doors and questions about the slightly younger Beast who's walking around with the X-Men team with the knowledge that there's another me in the world. And Hank and the X-Men will get there pretty soon because we're not going to keep that secret from them for too long. I can't imagine the existential crisis that would trigger in somebody. There's another me walking around who's a little bit older, who's lived through a bunch of stuff that I don't remember, and who made a bunch of choices that I think aren't that good. But when you come down to it, is he me? If he is Hank McCoy, who am I? There are all kinds of angles on this that I think are very fruitful for fascinating storytelling."And looking forward to the next couple of years for X-Men stories, "The most obvious character here who will be big going forward is Beast. Both Beast A and Beast B are going to be pretty important and central."Well, there is that summer X-Men event coming. How about you call it The Beast With Two Backs? That's Shakespearean, that is. It's in Othello and everything…
>>152141827>bleeding cool says x y and z!bleeding cool leaves out the part where beast was put in that position by the council (which featured villains, including sinister who tries to kill the council) specifically to do what beast did, he was tacitly given carte blanche to do so, and the writers fashioned an arc where krakoa's economy was literally dependent on beast's actions>>152141834>beast as a darker character seemed appealingthese dumbass bitches literally do not understand beast was the light/good character from the beginning. to try to say it's cyclops is a fucking lie, because cyclops has been aligning with magneto since at least AvX in the late 2000sthey're straight up lying pieces of shit>>152141834>he's become radicalizedno the fuck he hasn't. he was against death squad shit and race wars. the only thing that radicalized him was towing the line with the rest of the x-men and the council, due to bad writing.uncanny 600 is literally bendis putting beast on trial while the rest of the x-men scapegoat him for NOT BEING RADICALIZED
Shooter was based for that. And Krakoa was such a mistake. Who the fuck wanted Beast to become a bad guy? The X-Men have like 700 bad guys and writers still feel the need to corrupt whatever is left all the fucking time. Fucking stupid. Beast was cool and morally complex without the need to fucking annihilate decades of character arcs.
>>152141850>the obvious thing hereno. the obvious thing here is that these retarded motherfuckers need to reboot x-men to before bendis
>>152141771Translation: Tom really fucking wants Bendis back and Bendis is hell bent on making Beast evil incarnate stick after fan backlash and the MCU forced him and Brevoort to allow writers to undo the ruination of Scarlet Witch.
>>152141900>who wanted beast to become a bad guy?fucking no one. zero people.dark beast already existed. there was no reason or purpose, it's literally just bad writers sucking bendis cock, always was.
>>152141771What's been done to Beast over the last decade or so is one of the shittiest things I've ever seen. Thanks Hickman, you fucking piece of shit.
Beast is a boring Xmen character and a great avengers character.Hilarious how a known avengers editor didn't like Beast , but is the nuvenger cocreator along Bendis and MCU so off course he hates the pre-Bendis guys.
>>152141900Bendis.Seriously, Brevoort is desperate to get Bendis back on X-Men and Bendis, while knowing he'll never be able to restore his character assassination of Scarlet Witch, CAN do so with Beast. So Brevoort is forcing it into play to get Bendis on the Xbooks again so as to save Tom's job yet again
>>152141928he's not boring at all. he just has reverse plot armor. he spent years trying to cure the legacy virus and got little to no accolades for it. he tried to stop a race war in IvX and got assaulted and imprisoned for it, and the cure for the terrigen mists was given to REEREE instead with the help of forgeEndangered Species showed a character who was, out of desperation, trying to save his people. he actually asks villains for help because he's humble wants to solve problems. he could literally be a character that brings people together, he could be working on cures and medical technology with lizard, morbius, high evolutionary, all kinds of people, and writers just don't use him correctly because they're fucking stupid.you could literally hire doctors to write surgery procedures or show scenes where beast, who is a doctor, have personal medical conversations with other characters. these writers, the editors and disney a fucking dumbasses who keep dropping the ball
>>152141928Brevoort ore Bendis DID Like Beast and was always whining during the Busiek run about how he only got Bob Harras to let him use Beast in a single throw away one off story even though at the time, Beast was not being used in any of the Xbooks.This is entirely Brevoort trying to get Bendis back, as Bendis pretty much destroyed Beast to pander to the Nazi scum at CBR, the only place that liked his X-Men work explicitly because he wrote Scott as a Nazi.
>>152141960>while knowing he'll never be able to restore his character assassination of Scarlet WitchWe act about SW too much but we often forget about Wasp.She went from being a badass leader with Stern and decent with Busiek and even Geoff, to a bimbo who spill the beans to wanda, and fucking die later
>>152141896>these dumbass bitches literally do not understand beast was the light/good character from the beginning.What are you talking about? Everyone loves Hank Mengele. Who wants THIS Beast? Look at this shit, isn't it lame and uninteresting? Who could ever like this character or think he's cool, huh?
>>152141986This. Brevoort used to be a huge Beast fanboy and was always complaining about how the X-Men office wouldn't let him have Beast around in the Avengers book palling around with Wonder Man.
>>152141979>he's not boring at allHe is boring in the xmen, is in the avengers when he shine and that's fine, not every hero work well in every groups, Wolverine sucks in the avengers and nobody will tell me otherwise
illuminati was essentially a pro-choice moral parable where beast didn't join on his own, he was thrust in to a situation when xavier died and willed the mind stone to beast, and beast contributed to one of the most ethical missions he'd ever done in the marvel universe, and bitches who are supposed to be mutant friends (who shouldn't even know about it because the time loop closed) shit on him for itwhat marvel is doing with x-men from bendis onwards is retarded and insane
>>152141848But here's the thing, Anon: it's fucking hilarious to hear about all this shit second-hand and identify the blue furry supernerd with ethnic cleansing.
>wolverine sucks in avengerstrue. wolverine sucks in general, he's overrated and has his own oversaturation trope>he's boring in the x-menno the fuck he isn't. he's a fucking cornerstone of the x-men as well as the marvel universe>>152142019beast fans have it worse than spiderman fansi want you to imagine how star wars has become a stupid debacle. now apply that situation to a single character. now dial up the retardation and double standards to 11
Is insane how Wolverine has been indirectly ruining every xmen, they tried to made Scott the new magneto to made Wolverine the cool uncle teaching kids in school, and then they tried to push the Wolverine vs Beast feud during Krakoa.
>>152141998beast is the only character that actually jokes with and smiles at deadpool. i can't think of a single character who visibly enjoy's deadpool's company more than beast, and ive read cable and deadpool.
>>152142072>i can't think of a single character who visibly enjoy's deadpool's company more than beastBenjamin Franklin
>>152142064>wolverine vs beast feudwhich is weird, because beast and wolverine sided with each other for Shismwolverine has flip flopped multiple times too. first he was against cyclops, THEN he was agsinst the phoenix force and planning with captain america to kill them (and beast walked out at that time because he wanted to have no part in those murder plans) THEN wolverine was in uncanny x-force at the front of cyclops-directed operations that were kept secret which he did not try to keep secret from beast when beast smelled blood on him, THEN wolverine is totally fine with wetworks shit again in krakoa, THEN he murders his own clone when he himself was shown mercy by the x-men, THEN talks about revenge when no one's death fucking matters if they can all be resurrected
>>152142103*schism*
>>152141896>he was against death squad shitRemember Astonishing X-Men, when Beast helped his girlfriend dump the power of the sun through a Ghost Box, genociding the invading force on the other end?Remember Secret Avengers, where he found a massive underground city created by AIM and filled with hundreds of thousands of scientists and decided to nuke it to ash?Beast wasn't against death squad shit at all, he was just mad that Cyclops kept him in the dark.
>>152142050>a single characterWeren't there several events trying to paint the whole team as evil in the early 10s?
>>152142243and each time that happened, it was beast working with a team because writers want to use him as a scapegoat. it is literally just creating big problems and ethical compromises for other characters like cyclops and captain america to have beast do the dirty work and then writers act like the other characters who convinced beast to do those things have their hands clean>genociding an invading forcebuddy you can't genocide someone who is invading you, that's not how that works. it is not ethnic cleansing to defend yourself. any other details about that you want to share?>underground city created by AIMand what was that city's purpose and what were AIM's goals?
>>152142280not really, cyclops did his own thing and was being lionized. everything that happened was later memoryholed while beast got scapegoated. beast is singled out as the only one that can be held responsible for literally anything, and each time he does something, it's with a team or a group decision.like bringing the O5 from the past to the present to gut check cyclops. it was handled like it was a big deal with marvel is chock full of time travel shenanigans, and bishop and cable are literally x-men. when the question came up of the O5 being time displaced, magneto literally said that it didn't matter, and the rest of the x-men that were present VOTED TO KEEP THEM IN THE PRESENT
>>152142287>it is not ethnic cleansing to defend yourself. Agreed. That’s why I support I.C.E going full military and killing every brown they see.
>>152142334kekmexicans are native americans. if ICE was only going after white people, you'd have a point, but white immigrants are not being deportedare you even native american?
>>152142103Your timeline is wrong.First, Decimation happened. Beast was willing to partner up with any genocidal maniac he could find if it meant saving mutantkind. Fast forward a bit and the mutants are still fighting against extinction. Wolverine was with Cyclops and pro X-Force, then Beast cried about the X-Men doing wetworks shit and left for the Secret Avengers to do wetworks shit, then Wolverine kept X-Force going when Cyclops was ready to shut it down, then SCHISM happened and Wolverine tried to play professor and Beast came back, then they sided with the Avengers against Rightclops and the Phoenix Force, then AvX happens, then Beast starts fucking with time travel, then Beast gets put on trial for being a hypocrite. Then Secret Wars happens and Cyclops and Wolverine are dead and everyone stops reading the X-Men. Then everyone comes back and Krakoa happens and Beast and Wolverine are both OK with wetwork and Cyclops becomes the I Just Wanna Grill meme with his house on the moon. And then Beast goes off the deep end.
Bringing the O5 to the present indirectly ruined Iceman character(and sorta Jean), so fuck beast for doing that
>>152142346>mexicans are native americansthey are only part native americans mexicans are quite mixed
>>152142346>mexicans are native americansonly the ones in the southeast of mexico, Spainard fucked them a lot
>>152141807>The next morning, Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer–they'd have to kill Phoenix. I said fine.The virgin Chris vs the chad SHOOTER.
>>152142362>saving mutantkindyeah, because he'd already asked other good guys, and was even willing to ask dr strange if magic could help. that's not compromise, that's resolveschism happened before uncanny x-force>secret avengers-okay cool now hold captain america and all of the other characters to the same standards-also keep taking out the context that operations with avengers do not involve the danger of repercussions specifically against mutants>they sided with avengers against phoenix forceand then beast walked out when wolverine implied pheonix force would be killed>time travelmarvel's weak attempt to sell more comics>trialbendis shitting on beast, when all of the x-men basically agreed that death squad shit was fine, and nightcrawler conveniently decided that cyclops was cool and he did not need to confront cyclops about death squad shit, as he had said he would do moments before he died>secret warswhich one? uncanny 600 is 2015>everyone comes back and krakoa happens and beast is okay with ityeah, because that's the only role his allowed to play in the x-men at that point, and the council literally tells him to do those things. you are not holding all the other characters to the same standard you hold beast.>goes off the deep endstarting a fascist ethnostate has only ONE way to end, and that's disaster. it is insane to keep defending the decisions of writers who don't have other characters "go off the deep end" except for who else? moira mactaggart? sage was fine with all of this krakoa shit but the way writers handled it is that she got a pass because she's an alcoholic, then she turns against him and has a list of poorly reasoned assertions which are all easily debunked.you're bargaining. stop trying to defend bad writing.
>>152141790>the editors' shit on beast and spider-man at the same time crossover
>>152141919Why are people blaming Bendis? Beast was the ultimate moralfag under Bendis, so much so that he brought the O5 back from the past to try and talk sense into Cyclops who he felt had jumped off the cliff. The entire blame for Beast as he is now falls squarely on the shoulders of Hickman who made him into the pragmatist willing to destroy entire universes (while Bendis was writing him flipping out over Cyclops being Magneto Lite) to save the 616. Hickman is the guy who made him fuck up an entire country just to make Krakoa stronger. Percy then continued this and had him go full Dark Beast but he was only at that point thanks to Hickman.I legitimately cannot think of a single writer I hate more in the history of the medium than Jonathan Hickman.
>>152142515>moralfag under bendisno he wasn't. bendis just had beast do something unilaterally for once, only to use other characters to dogpile on him for it. that's a thing bendis does. instead of have an ethical discussion, bendis just uses other characters to disagree in a bandwagon fallacy panel. happened with daredevil too.>willing to destroy entire universesoversimplification. it was presented as more of a natural disaster type thing and not all the universes could be saved. that's not destroying one, it's preserving one because they couldn't save them all.blaming hickman is fucking retarded because you're basing it on your incredibly bad ethics. bendis is a terrible writer and doesn't even have ethical discussions in his stories, it's just logical fallacies and dialogue like gilmore girls or late 2010s rachel maddow
beastnigger salivating
>>152142287You haven't read the comics you're talking about. Because it was Beast's call, from end to end. Literally nobody talks with him he just goes and does it. But you can fix this. Astonishing X-Men #30, go check it out. I'll wait.
>>152142558>still slurring since 2019 at anyone who likes beasti wasn't like this until i saw your bitch ass comments that have zero thought behind them>>152142559i literally don't have time to go out and look for that issue. only thing i can find right now is a preview where forge is justifying his actions to make new mutants or somethinggo ahead and keep waiting because i thought you were talking about avengers, not soemthing written by warren ellis
>>152142465Uncanny X-Force did not happen before Schism. There are literally scenes in the book set on Utopia. Schism happens towards the beginning of the Dark Angel Saga, about 10 issues in.
>>152142645Even the Avengers story being talked about here was written by Warren Ellis. Secret Avengers #16. Beast hasn't been on a main-line Avengers lineup since the 80s. I hate when I get stuck debating textual facts with reddit-tier casuals.
This is all because writers pushed for mutant separatism and mangled the characters to do so. I miss Boyscout Scott, I miss the old Beast and I miss the old Jean.
>>152142545Fuck off Hackmanfag
>>152141771Disney needs to fire everyone at Marvel and either strictly not hire fanboys or only hire fanboys who won’t put their personal feelings about how things should be over what’s best for the character. I know DC was bad about character assassination under Didio but that seems to be something Marvel’s struggled with since at least the Shooter days.
>>152141771Why are comic companies like this?
>>152142972Because there’s not enough money in writing Marvel or DC to get actual, real writers to write the stuff so you just get fanboys who are more concerned about making their fan fiction canon than telling a good story. >see Bendis on Scott Lang>see Bendis on Scarlet Witch>see Bendis on Beast>see the Spider-Marriage
>>152142972The most celebrated comic writer today is a literal CIA agent whose been writing the same empty morally grey story about heros not being heros, this isn’t surprising
>>152142958If anything, actual fanboys would be better because they'd at least care about the characters. Marvel has been run by and written by people who hate everything they touch, for decades now.
>>152143046No, you need people who know how to tell a good story and don’t let their fanboyness cloud their judgement. If it wasn’t fanboys who grew up on single Spider-Man and actual businessmen/writers in charge of Spider-Man would we have gotten One More Day?
>>152143022The problem before soapboxers seems to be fetish freaks like Bendis trying to be the edgy "relatable" writer & people like Quesada who refuse to let anything actually change for the better.>>152143045>celebratedNo one actually likes Tom King except Gunn.
>>152143046I'd rather read someone's fanfic about their OC fucking their harem of hot female characters than 90% of the shit written nowadays. I'm certain someone from here could write a better a story even its just them being edgy or fucking a harem of mutie women
>>152142958>>152143046It's not so much a fanboy that you need, rather than someone that cares about the characters and also understands that part of the business is not driving off audiences
I actually agree that replacing him with an earlier version is a copout, but it's probably a necessary copout given how bad the writing has been for this character.Writers should have gotten him back to normal a decade ago and instead they just kept piling on, to the point that they've created a canon for this character that has absolutely nothing to do with the character. And now they're going to keep on with this and never fix him.>>152141919Why would the MCU have forced them to undo the ruination of Scarlet Witch when they were planning to do the same story (and did)?Also Bendis probably feels vindicated that the single most popular piece of Scarlet Witch media is "House of M with sitcoms."
>>152143270>I actually agree that replacing him with an earlier version is a copout, but it's probably a necessary copout given how bad the writing has been for this character.My general rule of thumb is: shitty writing does not justify more effort to retcon it than was put into establishing it. If Marvel were to write the most half-assed bullshit rationale for Peter and MJ getting back together, I'd still take it because the absolute load of hot bullcrap that Spider-writing has been leading up to and after their split deserves to just be chucked aside unceremoniously. Same with the Beast retcon, same with any other retcon to shitty writing.
>>152143163This is why manga, even power fantasy self insert crap, gets readers.
>>152143022Who the hell's fanfiction was "ruin everything that made Jon Kent unique and turn him into a clone of Geoff Johns Superboy"
>>152143567Tom Taylor. But make it gay & he doesn't punch anything.
>>152143567Bendis doesn’t like dealing with secret identities. Aging up Jon was Bendis’s way of writing him out so Superman could reveal his identity to the world (despite DC doing the same thing only a couple years prior and it cratered Superman sales but whatever). DC, for whatever reason, tried to make the Bendis status quo work and gave the aged-up Jon to Tom Taylor who had the great idea of making Jon gay in an attempt to make aged-up Jon work. It didn’t, fans still want Jon back to his original age, but DC is stuck because they can’t get rid of a gay character (for now). >tl;dr>Bendis
>ITT: a brown leftist troon malds over his character getting just as abused as almost every current Marvel character like he’s special
>>152143756The only way either company would get rid of gay retcons is with a total complete reboot. And that's not happening till they go bankrupt & get bought out again.
>>152143270>I actually agree that replacing him with an earlier version is a copout, but it's probably a necessary copout given how bad the writing has been for this character.On the other hand why replace him with a 70s-era version instead of replacing him with a 90s-era version which you could still gradually make him partly 70s-era Beast likeSeems to me editorial was too fixated on 70s Avengers-era Beast to see how myopic it is
>>152143270>Also Bendis probably feels vindicated that the single most popular piece of Scarlet Witch media is "House of M with sitcoms."More like the single most popular piece of Scarlet Witch media is "House of M with sitcoms and less Bendis"
>>152141771Maybe they can make Simon evil too and they can do cool shit
>>152143904No you just need someone in charge who says “no more retcons” and “no more stories explaining away other stories”. Reboots never work it just makes things more confusing. I’d rather “that stupid thing is just never brought up again and we all pretend it never happened” versus “spend a year doing a story to undo this other story because I don’t like it/fanboys bitch”. Case in point: Psylocke
I got two things to say about Beast turning evil1: maybe they're trying to make him some sort of alternate timeline, pre Age of Apocalypse Dark Beast. Whatever the goal, it was pretty stupid.2: maybe all this was set in motion by him not being able to bang that one cute yet actually internally-elderly feral cat mutant before she died.
>>152141771Making Hank McCoy go full evil during Krakoa was a mistake. No, it wasn't a natural evolution of the character, Hank had made many mistakes in recent years, but so have countless other heroes. Not to mention that Hank always had good intentions and was actually conflicted about everything.And if they really wanted to insist on doing that evil Hank story, instead of keeping Hank evil and bringing in a good clone, they should have just revealed that Beast during Krakoa was actually Dark Beast all along as many had initially speculated and the real Beast was trapped in a tube somewhere. It would be the exact same story only without character assassination of an iconic 60+ year old character.
>>152143994Making Wonder Man evil would ruin him.
>>152144169There's nothing to ruin there
>>152144169Didn't Bendis already make him evil once? He got better and since became a pacifist.
>>152144017No they don't. Actual reboots are full clean slates. Not what DC has always done of half hearted reboots that change some things but also continue stories already happening sometimes. Just a retcon saying "okay all these years didn't count" is way way more confusing. There's too much baggage to just handwave away.
>>152142001IIRC it was mainly that Perez really wanted Beast in the book so he could draw him like in his original run on Avengers, but Busiek and Brevoort were in full support of this. The X-office was using Beast at the time the Heroes Return Avengers book launched, so told them they couldn't have Beast as a member of the team, and could only use him as a guest star. But everyone working on Avengers at the time brought this up in every interview they did, and readers got the impression they'd kept asking the X-office for Beast, which did lead to angry fans later on when Beast was moved off the X-Men lineup to focus on trying to cure the Legacy Virus.
>>152142064>Is insane how Wolverine has been indirectly ruining every xmen, they tried to made Scott the new magneto to made Wolverine the cool uncle teaching kids in schoolThey ruined Cyclops and THEN they neutered Wolverine into a safe, domesticated, authority figure. The worst part is how the ruined version of Cyclops got more popular than he ever was before. This is what the idiots actually want.
>>152144295Both times he learned he wasn't the real Simon Williams, he went insane. If Evil Beast wants his friend back, he just needs to remind him again.
>>152141771It's grating how the characters I most gravitate towards like Hank and Pete get targeted by these neurotic types.Let that boy be!
>>152144392The problem with a full reboot, especially for Marvel, is the characters have too many character-defining stories to just retcon them away. So that leaves having to do them again and there’s no point because they were perfect the first time around. What’s Spider-Man without the death of Gwen Stacy or kravens last hunt or the symbiote saga? X-men without dark phoenix, daredevil without the Elektra saga, iron man without demon in a bottle
>>152144549Hank is a smart guy, there's a tendency of writing these as sociopaths. A good example is Velma from Scooby-Doo.Peter is hated because he is popular, and stopped being the nerd.
What does Beast's anus hole feel like?
Why is Brevoort only pro-retcon when it makes a character worse? Why does he only care about the continuity set by hacks?
>>152144626Harrowing but insightful point.If MCU X-Men has a compelling enough Hank to undo all this I'll hold silence on synergy for once.
>>152144756To piss the fanbase off.
>>152143133I just meant in the sense of industry accolades.
>>152141827>It felt like you let the character do all of this stuff and make all of these morally gray compromisesThere was nothing morally gray about Krakoa Beast, he was just evil. He murdered people, he treated Wolverine the same way Weapon X did. There's no coming back from that which is why he had to get replaced with a clean slate Beast.
>>15214475690s Brevoort was working with writers like Stern and Busiek and let them move Heaven and Earth to retcon the history and continuity to just the way they wanted it, and he appeared to be a fully willing party to all of that. Then in the 2000s under Quesada he was working with writers like Bendis and Millar who were doing whatever they wanted with no regard for continuity and past characterization at all. At some point he seems to have taken up a stance of, in his own words, "play the ball where it lands", and wanting the writers working under him to just accept the history, continuity and canon as it is rather than spending entire issues or entire storylines on undoing or retconning past storylines they didn't like. When it's something that isn't really that important, there's a lot of sense in an editor taking that view, and an editor who's blocking his writers from doing a lot of retcon work that's going to be excruciating to read is an editor that's doing good work. The problem is when you have a character like Beast who's been absolutely broken by successive writers and editorial won't make an exception and say something needs to be done to fix this.
God, what happened? How did we get here? We used to be such friends. There was joy and comradery. We laughed and cried and fought together. What happened to the x-men? What happened to us?! To what we could have been? To what we SHOULD have been?
>>152141771For as stupid as Tom is, I can understand why "evil/morally complex Beast" is a thing. Beast and The Thing are just two halves of Monk from Doc Savage. The Thing got all of Monk's compassion and looks while Beast got his super-smarts, popularity with women, and willingness to do fucked up shit. Maxwell-Grant has a good post that goes into more detail on this.
>>152145014Brevoort spent a lot of time retconning the finale of Fall of X to reveal that Xavier never actually killed anyone and also claim that the reason Krakoa happened in the first place was because he had a brain tumor. He's a hypocrite.
>>152145067>I can understand why "evil/morally complex Beast" is a thingYes. Which is why we have one already.
>>152145079Yeah, you're right. I actually support him putting his foot down and blocking writers from retconning or undoing stuff that they didn't like, but isn't really that important, but the fact that he allowed one character assassination to be undone but he's doubling down on another just makes him look inconsistent in his arguments.
>>152145212This kind of reminds me a bit of, remember a ways back when marvel put their foot down about reviving dead characters, so Psylocke ended up staying dead for half a decade when she was intended to come back more immediatly during Claremont's X-treme? Taking a stand to have people being so flippant with this kind of thing is, in theory, a good practice, the problem though is it kind of misses the real point. The problem isn't that people retcon too much stuff, the problem is THEY HAVE TO IN THE FIRST PLACE! Don't kill characters so flippantly and don't have them be so broken you need to erase years of material. They should have said NO to the start.
>>152145212I feel like the stance is too little too late. A bunch of characters are husks of their former selves because he and other editors let a bunch of idiots completely disregard continuity and character assassinate with abandon. Deciding now that those stories are the ones that should be respected rings completely hollow
>>152145253Fully agreed. Killing characters or doing anything that fundamentally changes them in a way that would be hard to reverse shouldn't just need one asleep at the wheel editor to let it through, the EIC and in some cases the execs above him should be having to sign off on things that might permanently damage a valuable piece of intellectual property.Too many readers want the deaths and the heel turns, so it's like writers are encouraged to do this crap to get noticed, and it's the subsequent attempts to undo the damage that take all the flak from the audience.
>>152145253That one was especially retarded because they only "put their foot down" about undoing deaths because they had one in the pipeline that they wanted to be a surprise
>>152145014>At some point he seems to have taken up a stance of, in his own words, "play the ball where it lands"Isn't he doing the opposite of that right now though? Percy killed off the evil Beast and replaced him with one from the past to give the character a clean slate. This is where the ball was when he began his tenure as X-Men editor. But because he doesn't like where the ball is he is bringing back a character that should be dead and left behind.
>>152141807>>152141771Shooter was completely right though.
>>152142972Genuinely because it’s an industry of soft as baby shit creators that read that shooter anecdote and think he was wrong in any way.The industry needs more Jim shooter types, and I don’t mean staunch, adamant men on power trips I mean people in power who can look at things objectively and remember that character and canon take precedent over creator ego and their precious individual “story that must be told”!
>>152144130>popularThey can't because they quite explicitly stated in Immortal X-Men that Dark Beast was Sinister's prisoner and reduced to a severed head oblivious to what regular Beast was doing.
>>152141850>The Beast With Two BacksDo it. Make it happen and make it selfcest.
>>152145426>Shooter was completely right though.Shooter should've put a stop to things before they ever got that far, instead he only stepped in when it was already too late. While the EIC's workload is going to be so big that he wouldn't be able to micromanage every book in fine detail every month, the EIC should know which talent needs constant tard wrangling, and a story where a hero goes bad probably will need constant micromanaging to make sure they don't do something they can't come back from.>inb4 b-b-but muh one great storyYour one story is never worth it in the long run.
>>152143756>DC is stuck because they can’t get rid of a gay character (for now).I fixed this for them years ago, post it constantly and tell the shills to steal it. Just do it.I repeat>straight kid Jon is being held in space, hasnt aged a day>gay teen Jon is Jon-El, an alt-u Jon who lost his memory after crashing through the universal barrier in a fight>jon-el goes super saiy- I mean super Kryptonian when the villain who destroyed his universe comes to this one.>Jon-el saves straight kid Jon. Says he wants to go off with the legion and Mon-El to learn more about his new universe and its timeline. >straight kid Jon comes back for good. Super sons relaunches. Nobody acknowledges that Damian has done a single thing since 2018. >LOSH relaunches and we see how it goes.>everybody is happy, no gay erasure has taken place, in fact the gay character saved everyone>none of the following are allowed to write any of this: Taylor, king, fraction, Williamson, Russell, Snyder or any of the portlandians. Nobody gay either. No women either. Adams could do it, maybe just get tomasi to admit rocketeers and the devil comic suck and get him to come back >company profits.
>>152145544>Shooter should've put a stop to things before they ever got that far, instead he only stepped in when it was already too lateWhy would he assume they’d been building all of this up just to drop it because Byrne had a hard on for Jean and Chris couldn’t condemn his darling to villainy? He did ask and immediately stepped in when told what would happen >Your one story is never worth it in the long runThats literally word for word what I said here: >>152145469
>>152145381Whether it was all to keep a 'dead' character's return a surprise or it was a real rule, they clearly should've given writers advance warning this was coming so we didn't get things like Claremont starting a planned death and return arc and the "dead means dead" rule announced right after he'd killed Psylocke.>>152145411People did note at the time that Beast's death was ambiguous enough that he could come back again, plus the usual debate over whether the new Beast was a resurrection or just a clone. The ball was in a place where all of this was still an option, it's just the wrong option, and going out of his way to fix Xavier means the inconsistency makes him look worse.
>>152145617>Why would he assume they’d been building all of this up just to drop it because Byrne had a hard on for Jean and Chris couldn’t condemn his darling to villainy? He did ask and immediately stepped in when told what would happenHe stepped in when told Phoenix was going to "get away with it". He should've stepped in before Phoenix had done "it" in the first place, it's a failing on his part that he was apparently on board with her being permanently turned into a villain. It doesn't matter which hero we're talking about, whether it's Jean, Beast, or anyone else, the EIC shouldn't be letting that happen.
>>152145673Such an easy fix too. All he had to do was tell Byrne to knock it off with the "destroying an entire planet" bit.
>>152145622>People did note at the time that Beast's death was ambiguous enough that he could come back againHe was at ground zero of a nuclear explosion, that's only ambiguous with comic logic.
>>152144626>Hank is a smart guy, there's a tendency of writing these as sociopaths.Hickman, the guy who started this shit with Beast, does it fucking consistently because he's a retarded pseud who thinks that's genius writing.
>>152144756>>152145014Brevoort is an emmasculated cuck when it comes to star writers. He's fine with throwing his weight around on B or C-level writers but he gives A-listers free reign to do nearly whatever they want. When it's an actual good writer like Stern or Busiek this isn't such a bad thing. When it's trash ones like Bendis and Hickman, then it becomes a problem.
>>152141771>Lets Hank off too easily from a retarded character progression that should have never happened in the first placeI don't see the problem.
>>152143961>>152144756Because he's a hack himself, to both
>>152145067Almost everything that makes Beast Beast came from Englehart. His characterization was just kind of your generic smart guy in the Silver Age and it was Englehart who gave him the more laidback and quippy personality who quickly let go of any angst he had over his transformation when he was writing him as an erudite stoner in his Avengers run which then carried over to how everyone else wrote him even if they might not have been intending to write him as a dope smoker like Englehart (as he himself has said) was.
>>152145928>When it's an actual good writer like Stern or Busiek this isn't such a bad thing.When they're spending entire issues or storylines on retconning things they didn't like instead of just leaving it alone and moving on, not so much. You just get bad comics about older bad comics, and occasionally about undoing perfectly cromulent comics the star writer just didn't like for some reason. It's not an entertaining read worth paying for, and editors shouldn't let writers do that.
>>152145381Where did that even come from? I keep seeig it repeated on /co/ and it sounds like complete horse shit so I want you or someone to produce an actual interview or source. Not just a greentext either.Psylocke died in X-Treme X-Men #2 which was in like summer 2001 and the Dead is Dead policy came up around that time as that's also why Morrison grabbed Emma and gave her the diamond form (since DiD meant he was denied using Colossus). Colossus didn't return until Astonishing X-Men #5 which was in fall 2004 Quesada perpetuating a three year long con to set up Astonishing X-Men even though he likely wouldn't have had Whedon writing it until at most 2003ish (and that's being generous) is completely fucking absurd so either produce the evidence, with links, or stop spouting it. The oly con with Astonishing was the fakeout pages in the lead up to AXM #5 that were "leaked" showing Jean as the big resurrection to hide that it was actually Colossus.
>>152146177It wasn't a long con to set up Colossus returning in 2004, it was to set up Xorn being unmasked as Magneto, who had supposedly died in Morrison's second issue, and the "dead means dead" rule making people think it was real.
>>152145729>>152145673While I don’t disagree from the standpoint of stewarding the characters/IP I would argue this is just you being a jeanfag who, in the time since her resurrection, thinks the story ruined her. When in reality Byrne and Claremont wanting to hand wave it away before it was even done, and the latter obsessing over it for years as if it weren’t him who put Jean in the position in the first place, was what ruined her. Her death is still the most impactful moment of her entire existence.
>>152146431You're talking to two different anons there. And whether it's Jean, or Beast, or Hank Pym, or Wanda, or whoever else, any character getting permanently defined by a story in which they do something drastically OOC is indeed something that ruins the character and is something editorial should have stepped in and stopped.The impact of "major character death" being the thing that turned X-Men into Marvel's top selling book had a terrible effect on not only that one title, but on the industry as a whole, it's not a good thing, and you're basically leaning on Morrison's "all Jean ever did was die" argument to justify why you think she should be dead, and he at least had the excuse of not having read most of the comics after Dark Phoenix.
>>152142926it's passed your bedtime, bendis>>152142796>hasn't been mainline since the 80syeah, because the avengers have been mostly the same since the fucking 90s and hasn't changed all that much. i hate getting stuck with pseuds who have no real points to make
>>152141827>"I didn't love that. It felt like you let the character do all of this stuff and make all of these morally gray compromises, and then you're washing bhis hands by going, here's a fresh one who didn't do any of that stuff, and it's all ok now."HYPOCRITICAL NARCISSISTIC FAGGOTHow can retardation be this terminal? How can one man lead such a life of creativd doublethink and justify it publicly? Nice thinking there genius. You forgot a couple of things. SCARLET WITCH AND SPIDER-MANApply the same logic and you got him dead to rights on OMD and House of M being out of nowhere clickbait that isn't justified at all by the characters. Literal plot contrivances as bad as Jean forgetting and nobody caring about those dead aliens. Fuck this nigga and screencap my post and shove it down this faggot's hat and into his cranium.>>152141834>Beast and BeastOh yeah I sure love seeing another of the same character fulfilling the exact same role since your writers are too braindead to make this fun or justified. Why bother with two distinct personalities when you can just have good scientist versus bad scientist. Seriously? Why bother? Radicalized? You mean your idpol that has almost no grey area? Get the fuck outta that company you faggot. You're taking up space. We got enough fat old retards working there.>>152141850>Old cynical Brevoort: My own clone? >Young cynical Brevoort and Old cynical Brevoort: Now neither of us will be virgins!>>152145014Most comic retcons are not that complex. Stop this bullshit narrative. And a better writer can stretch the retcons over longer periods in more digestible pieces of information that don't intrude on the story.But Marvel doesn't understand that. They deal in BND type spreads, forcing a status quo down your throat immediately while also not actually explaining every point.
>>152143084>fanboys cloud judgementi dunno, anon. i prefer marvel over DC and i am way more critical of marvel. if i write a hero, he's gonna get shit on before he improves and gets a power up so it actually means something. what i would not do is just shit on characters i don't like. i fucking hate cyclops and jean, but at least i'd set them aside raising kids or some shit, and ask the artist to show them having a peaceful day or something
>>152143046hard agree. as long as it isn't mary sue shit. if it were me i'd absolutely be writing off small checks doctors to help write doctors, or ER workers and EMTs on emergencies and how they deal with injuries. i'd ask for advice from engineers to explain whatever forge is working on. what i would NOT do is try to wing in for a character's experience or cut corners. i don't think fanboys would try to write a fascist ethnostate either
>>152143855kek>transphobialet me guess, you "identify" as christian?
>>152144061>feral cat mutanthonestly i think the explanation for that is that it was just a simple and heartfelt homage to when beast did the palliative care thing and helped infectia die in peace instead of a cramped hospital by showing her the sunset. it could also be interpreted as an animal rights and emotional intelligence thing
>>152145471>they explicitly statedyeah, which was to shove it in the face of the readers because we all thought what was happening was fucking retarded. it was blatant subversion of expectations which also shows that the writers know we know it's stupid and they're doubling down
>>152146267So Morrison and Quesada cooked up a fake policy to hide a twist but it was also real because it prevented other writers from using or reviving dead characters they wanted including the guy who allegedly helped cooked the whole thing up.Again, provide a source because that's absurd.
>>152147097>it's passed your bedtime, bendisHickman and Bendis are friends, Hackmanfag. It was Bendis who got him into Marvel. Do you think Hickman busting his balls means they dislike each other or something?
>>152145907>hickman made beast a sociopaththose are certainly words
>>152147250i don't know anything about hickman busting anyone's balls, i just know that for all of hickman's faults, he isn't a shitstain like bendis. :)
>>152146553Letting jean grey get away with billions of murders would have turned the fanbase against the xmen completely. Turning them into a small closed of circle of hypocritical sociopaths. It was the right call.
>>152145411>Isn't he doing the opposite of that right now though? Percy killed off the evil Beast and replaced him with one from the past to give the character a clean slate.This is the problem though. It applies to multiverse shit too. People look at this, see time displaced copies, alternate selves and think this is the same character. It's not. The self is based on consciousness. Perception. the Beast we all followed and cared about is dead and some copy is running around. And it IS a copy. People treat it like a toy that broke so you bought a new one.
>>152147962The universe has been destroyed and remade multiple times. Consciousness line has already been lost.
>>152148014Pretty much all of the x-men are pod people.
>>152147213God, I miss when comics were written by adults. Yeah there was like a novels worth of dialogue to these things sometimes but people would bare their fucking souls. It was genuine.
>>152148051For as much as Lobdell had problems with plotting because he just wrote by the seat of his pants, I legitimately don't think there's anyone who got characterization the way he did. It's why the quiet issues were always his best ones.
>>152148181Loebdell is rock solid when it comes to keeping the status quo in line. He GETS the characters you give him and will do a good job of giving them the right voice and head space. He can get retarded as hell when you let him off the leash but between him an Nicieza they could keep a book going strong till the next big to do.
>>152147213>sunsetsorry i meant sunRISE>>152148051yeah that takes introspection.even in mutant X, an alternate beast (brute) at least got a two page spread of him doing some kind of work. i remember right, it was just some narrative bubbles talking about how he wants to help his friends.for some reason i feel like he got smarter temporarily, like a flowers for algernon arc. but i could be mistaken
>>152146015well then i'm grateful to englehart
>>152141771I'm seeing a lot of people mad that they did Beast dirty which they did.But at the same time now that the damage is done do you still agree with taking a Shooter Stance on the issue (which Brevoort isn't by the way he is just using it as a bad justification on top of another non-shooter action already taken) and kill Beast off?
>>152142362>becomes the I Just Wanna GrillHe's the one who tells Logan to shut up and not think about mutants fighting and killing each other so they can get their powers back.
>>152148230Someone hasn't read his DC work...
