When did 'Batgod' officially become a problem?
Grant Morrison JLA run where Batman solos a team of white martians with equivalent powers to the JLA. Alone. Off screen.
>>152308755I've seen this posted multiple times. How does he survive that? Is it just bad writing?
Justice League
When Supermanfaggots started whining about it all the time.
>>1523087552008.
>>152308808it is just bad writing, none of it makes any sense, the moon is too far away, space is too many different kinds of hazard, he couldn't possibly be protected, his face isn't even fully covered, you can see the impact, you can see he's on fireit's not artistic license, it's just shit, but whenever /co/ gets into it someone comes along and starts Morrisonposting about how nobody cares who pumps the Batmobile's tires
>>152308849this.
>>152308755When it started.
>>152308787>>152308802Whichever of these two came first. It's so insane now that Bat-God ever struggles or loses a single fight that they had to create Bat-God + Joker-Wank as a villain.
>>152308755Does ANYONE even enjoy this shit? What is even the point of Batman if he's just like a regular superhero? Call me a boomer but I grew up in the post-crisis era and Batman got hurt often, got hurt, failed, and the point was that he struggled and fought through the pain. I mean am I just old fashioned or wasn't that part of the appeal?
>>152308885>>152308808You get the double edged sword of 'erm the premise is inherently unrealistic and ridiculous, what do you want realism Nolanslop?' While there's an argument to be made there comes a point where you strain credibility to the point of absurdity and just shit writing that betrays the premise.
>>152308938>do you want realism Nolanslop?If it negates Batgod? FUCK. YES.
>>152308787He had some matches.
>>152308916I read Knightfall as a kid and still enjoy it today. Batman is supposed to be human and even he can't push past limits and run on empty forever. Morrison Bat-God would have fixed the Arkham breakout, rounded up every escapee and defeated Bane off panel without even breaking a sweat.
>>152308849Even you have to admit the Batwank has gotten out of hand
Personally I feel like it was late 90's (like around 97) and the early 2000's and it's been getting worse since then. You'll also notice it coincided with Batman becoming a complete asshole.
>>152308755It never did.
>>152308898That was just the seed. It was the people after who completely misinterpreted this scene and thought it should be the standard.
>>152308787As much as I love Morrison’s JLA, this is accurate.
>>152308898>>152309404I really liked the final issue of DKIII with Batman praising Superman self-restraint and skill. Because the moment Superman fights with everything, he obliterates the other Kryptonian.Seems Miller mellowed with age
>>152309544I wouldn't give him too much credit, it's debatable how much of Master Race was Frank and how much was Azz
>>152309544He also became a hack.
>>152308755Ramification of shared universe + human level Characters being more popular than people who are supposed to be stronger than them. Same thing happens to the punisher on a smaller scale
>>152308755Other than that image, Batgod doesn’t really happen anymore outside of Absolute (and even then Absolute Batman still gets beat up).In fact. The main Batman comic is either A) Batman being beat up constantly and needing others to constantly rescue him or B) Batman being le crazy and the Bat Family having to beat him up.Batman is the Peter Parker of the DCU.
>>152308898>When it started.Pic unrelated. >>152309544That's trash. Superman's restraint is already obvious in The Dark Knight Returns. Batman was counting on it and it was how he "won".
>>152308898/co/ and the Internet at large really don't want to admit it because they dick ride this comic nonstop but this is the exact point where it began.
>>152308755When the buff started applying to the Robins, Joker, Harley Quinn, and Catwoman.
>>152308787Martian Manhunter's weakness was fire and this was considered a racial weakness up until somebody decided it should be psychological to John for some reasonSo Batman trapping three Martians in a ring of fire because he figured out their secret and laying them out because they now were on his level was smart and it's then backed up by Superman shortly realizing it afterwardNow THIS>>152308802, is when the common "Batman is so smart he can beat anybody with preptime" argument really took root
>>152308802this fucking shit is a permanent stain on the character from even a moral standpoint, not just shit writing
>>152311737Nobody admits it because it's not the case.
>>152308916yup, I prefer this Batman especially when he broke his hand htting Superchad during DITF. I also remember when Deathstroke was too much to handle for Batman.
>>152309544the real DKIII has yet to be written
>>152308802TOB is cool though, in its own way. it definitely paved the way for batgowdank though
>>152309833Punisher is more in alt verses or him getting some power up.
>>152308898Didn't he literally lose this fight?
>>152313001It's the point where the notion of "Batman is cooler and can, through creating a whole bunch of conditions, beat Superman and be the best hero" cements itself. Everything else is downstream from it. The anti-Superman suit is just preptime in suit form.
When I play Arkham games I intentionally let the random thugs land a few hits so Batman seems less invincible.
>>152308802this is the correct answer>>152308898this is the lazy video essay answerhim “beating” Superman is one thing but having a contingency plan for EVERY member of the JLA is bad writing and character assassination
>>152313232He has a contingency plan for every JLA member because if he has a successful one for Superman, what's stopping him from having one for everyone else? It still starts at DKR.
>>152308808It's not actually as egregious as people make it out to be. Reentry is only actually dangerous (in the overwhelming sense) at the very upper atmosphere where there starts to be air (i.e. friction) but is not enough air to enforce a terminal velocity so the object is still accelerating and generating even more friction and so even more heat. Before that window you are just in space, where you are fine as long as your environmental containment is good (i.e. you have air, you have some way to stay warm, you have some sort of protection against radiation). After that window you are just high altitude skydiving.If we assume that the suit is designed such that being in space is fine (which, why wouldn't it be? even just to deal with the ordinary threats he has to face like various neurotoxin gases, radiation emitting enemies and thermal-projection using enemies), then he's fine before the window. If we assume that the cape works as a highly efficient parachute (which we see constantly) he's fine after the window, this isn't any different than his constant leaps out of buildings, he'll hit terminal velocity and then just be skydiving.So it is purely about him surviving the burn phase in the pages before this, which is just a matter of: do you think that the suit material can stand up to, and protect him from, the high heat created by friction long enough for him to slow his fall some. The impact is sort of a non-issue, it's just the most sensationalized bit because "omg!!!! he survived hitting da ground from space!!?!?!"
>>152311766Joker and Harley are low-level metahumans, though the former definitely steps well over the line of believably survivability.
>>152313241his “successful” plan has him pretend to die at the end and it “succeeds” because Superman lets him get away with it. His contingency plan wasn’t to defeat Superman, it was to fake his death so the government would leave him alone for a few years
>>152313353Sure, it makes sense in the story. But the point is, from a real world perspective, it means the story establishes "Batman can get one over Superman if he has enough preptime, and he had everything ready already ahead of time to do it". Tower of Babel just follows from that. It's not about if the story makes sense or not, it's about what it established IRL.
>>152310196You don't know what the fuck you're talking about or what Batgod even means. Batman in the Mobius chair, Batman/Joker can kill anything panel, Batman who Laughs, a good bit of the Dark Multiverse replicas, that episode where DCAU Batman seduced Cheetah and 4D chessed out of his cell. That's BatGod. Absolute Batman lost so bad to Freeze that he still never went back. He just had to be saved by the pegasus in the most recent issue. It's also evident that Joker is going to fuck his day up.
>>152311831It makes more sense for Superman to do it since he has super strength to take advantage of it.
>>152313692So he did in 20 punches what Superman did in one, so whatMartians aren't inherently tough, they have the ability to control their density
>>152308802Batman should nap with them
>>152313126It’s weird because Batman intended to lose in order to fake his death and Superman was still recovering from stopping a nuclear war and trying to stop Batman without seriously injuring him. Superman later figures this out after but decides to let Bruce go.So yeah, it was for Bruce to fake his death and Superman stayed quiet about it after the fact.
>>152313927He pulled the short stick and has to get snacks and juice ready for when they wake up.
Maybe Bruce is microdosing Miraclo when he’s with the League—not enough to get addicted or to give him anywhere close to Hourman’s powers, but enough to give him an edge to survive against high-level metahumans.
Batman should have never gotten mixed up with the rest of the DCU. Yes even Superman. The minute you do it there's too many questions like why is Barbara still on a wheelchair and why not just send Joker to the Phantom Zone forever.
>>152314139Yes, I too think Batman should have ended in 1941
you batwank niggas don't even read comics
>>152309833Oh Lord, it is funny that in the span of about 15 years that Spider-Man went from being able to solo the X-Men to being used as a human shield by the Punisher against the Russian.
>>152314139I like World's Finest. It's the ultimate fornicator hero with the ultimate masturbator hero.
>>152308755Around 2000 when Mark Waid wrote Tower of Babel. That's when his gimmick became he could beat anybody with prep time.
>>152308755I'm actually okay with Batgod stuff, as long as it's Arkham video games tier and he's just gritting through a bunch of bullshit. Batman Who Laughs is where the Batgod wank becomes unbearable.
>>152313232uhm actually he knows all their mother's names
>>152308755The current batman run is very much not a batgod run, he gets knocked out by a random police officer, barely escapes an assasination from a samurai/ninja woman, it's something they seem to be addressing. Batman Dark Patterns had an extremely vulnerable Batman too, I think in a decade or so the batgod allegations will be less prominent.
>>152314636usually the most egregious examples of Batwankery happen in team up stories or when he’s out of Gotham and has to fight aliens/demons/monsters etc. When he’s confined to his own setting he’s only really up against gang members with guns and the like
>>152313243He doesn't parachute, though, he crashes like a meteor and leaves a crater
>>152313126People like to pretend that part didn't happen>>152313434It doesn't establish that, though. It established he could almost fake his death but he still lost because Superman found out right at the end and if he had decided to let him go he could've just ripped the casket open and taken him in right there or even killed him. Batman knew he couldnt beat Superman, the whole thing was to just stop him from one hit K.O.ing him for long enough thst it it would be believable to everyone (including Superman) when he tried to fake his death. Everyone likes to act like he almost beat Superman and totally would have but he had a bigger plan and threw thebfight but if they had kept going Superman would've won. This is pretty much proven when he gets nuked and still bounces back after like three minutes. To try to build off that and say: "and therefore he can take down everyone with a plan/prep time l" is ridiculous.
>>152314139Batman made more sense in the golden age when every building in Gotham was only one or two stories tall and forensics didn't exist yet and I say that as someone who really likes Batman
>>152314978This is also a batman story where Batman gets his ass kicked by some random street thug, and has to spend prep time just figuring out how to beat him in a brawl. It's all there in the book, people just either haven't actually read it or have terrible literacy skills.
>>152314984Forensics existed before Batman.DNA testing is relatively new, ballistics is more advanced, but they were doing ballistics and blood type analysis and toxicology and fingerprinting long before Batman came along.
>>152308916Batfags love it. It wasn't until relatively recently did MUH PREP TIME GOD stop being an instant wincon in power level faggotry debates, and fans of other characters have started pushing back against it/saying it doesn't matter as much due to how bad batwank has gotten in canon and fandom.
Batman has not won a single Death Battle btw
>>152308901You not knowing whether New World Order or Tower of Babel came first means you're wholly unqualified to comment on anything in this thread.
>>152314284Thank you. Batman and Robin have been fighting overpowered aliens since the 1950s. It's crazy that people are upset about this.
>>152309040matches … "Matches" Malone … it’s all coming together
>>152314102Bat milk?
>>152316111MORRISOOOOOOOOON
>>152314329tbf that was Ennis' hateboner for superheroes in effect
>>152311766I can't think of a single instance where Nightwing got a BatGod moment. He spent most of the last 40 years jobbing.
>>152314139This is the problem with superhero comics in general - having one big shared universe that never ends means that it's effectively impossible to write a coherent story.You can't have a proper ending where the hero's work is done, nor plausibly threaten that the hero will be defeated, because they need to come back next issue. You can't have any "realist" characters in a world where magic and aliens show up all the time. You can't escalate the stakes or feats without furthering the arms-race between writers to make their stories the HIGHEST stakes and most POWERFUL feats. And that arms race has been going on so long at this point that even "street-level" heroes have saved the universe multiple times over.
>>152317229Nightwing instead got the center of the universe chosen one bullshit. He's been said to be the heart of DC and it was even made cosmic a couple times.
>>152314139>why is Barbara still on a wheelchair She didn't want and actively refused any special treatment.>why not just send Joker to the Phantom Zone forever.This happened in the LEGO Batman movie and he escaped. In the comics, he was sent to the Slab which was transported to Antarctica and he still casually escaped and made it back to Gotham for Hush because his popularity ensures he will never be off the table no matter how elaborate a prison or explicit a death a writer gives him.
I don't like Batgod but I think Batman's will should be unbreakable even if his body fails. He should be the one screaming and spitting blood and thunder while the whole world burns down and be far more about sheer grit than omniscience or prep time and fight to the end even if it's legitimately hopeless.
>>152314957He landed in the snow so he's okay :D
I’ll take Batgod over Catwoman lecturing him about arresting BIPOC jewel thieves like in Zdarsky’s run
>>152314284>>152316107oh fuck off with these dishonest takes. you know exactly thats not even close to the levels of later Batgod wanks
>>152313255If that's true, they are not metas in their original and most well-know versions. Jokerwank/clownforce and Batwank are related and begets each other.>>152318199Why not neither?
>>152317649The only one who chose Nightwing was Deathstroke. Don't act like acknowledging that he's the O.G. kid sidekick and the main character for his generation of heroes compares to Snyder's decade+ of BatGod with Barbatos, BatKek, etc. Or even that omniversal godhead Wonder Woman that reset the universe in Death Metal.
I honestly like Arkham Batman. Not too weak, not too powerful, though maybe a little too stoic when shit got serious and warranted actual emoting.
>>152318199Zdarsky wrote both that and the scene in the OP which is why he was one of the worst Batman writers.
>>152318207the dishonest thing is acting like Batman is some kind of noir hero when the truth is he's a been one guy fighting unstoppable overpowered abject horrors since the very beginningAbsolute Batman is the only active Batman title right now, funnily enough
>>152318792Noir gets crossed over with alien horrors and stuff all the time. The problem is in the framing: no-one minds a "normal guy" hero beating improbable odds so long as it's portrayed as daunting, difficult, and exceptional. When it becomes wank is when the hero just casually wins, without needing to spend a bunch of the story stacking the odds just to have a chance. Preparation doesn't count if it's offscreen.
>>152318972>Noir gets crossed over with alien horrors and stuff all the time.yeah that's because he's got origins in the pulps> The problem is in the framing: no-one minds a "normal guy" hero beating improbable odds so long as it's portrayed as daunting, difficult, and exceptional.Batman is not a "normal guy" and it very much is presented that way.> When it becomes wank is when the hero just casually wins, without needing to spend a bunch of the story stacking the odds just to have a chance. Preparation doesn't count if it's offscreen.I agree for shit like Chip's moon drop and what not but when has Batman ever casually beaten Superman for example? He hasn't. It's always been a struggle that almost kills him.What I'm seeing in this thread is people just having a problem with Batman winning at all, they want him to be Daredevil
>>152319001I don't want batman to lose necessarily. I just want more of him doing detective shit, as opposed to just showing up, jumping in, and fistfighting the villain. Batman's best stories are the ones where the problem is "find proof they did it/figure out what they're going to do next".
>>152319070again, I ask, when exactly does this happen, at least recently?Because the last 5 Batman things I've consumed( The Batman movie, Gotham Knights, Suicide Squad game, Absolute Batman, Fraction run. I took a break from dc for a bit), have all had Batman in a role where he basically gets his ass kicked at every turn and every victory is due to a combination of his intellect, leadership, teamwork, etc.The early 00s I'll give you, but Batman was pretty unreadable in the early 00s until Morrison/Dini showed up
>>152313188You just suck, scrub.
>>152318528He was the "only good one" in Infinite Crisis. There was that whole thing with the Court of Owls and Gray Son shit. Even as far back during Kelly's JLA run he was picked by Batman to run the backup JLA and saved everyone. He also has his own 5th dimensional imp.
>>152320337>Has an adopted dad and an alt-earth uncle that love him>Has a secret origin and a rogues gallery>Is a hero and does hero shitYou're reaching. Hard. Lliterally the entire JLA has 5th dimensional fanboys.If you wanted to show Dick getting BatGod moments you'd point to something like ASBAR where he beats and almost murders Green Lantern in a single splash page.
Fuck this Bat-god shit, this is the one true Batman!
>>152320800can a nigga live
>>152308916I like it since it makes sense that the only superhero that has actual training, knowhow, and does his homework in planning and research is more capable than the colorful retards that fly face first into every problem. Batman should be head and shoulders above the rest of the hero community based on the fact that he is the smartest, most capable one of them. And the only one who will take time to learn a new skill and use it efficiently. He is constantly training, learning, and improving. and it makes sense in continuity too. Batman o 2026 should be better overall than Batman of 1990. He has been in more fights, trained in more skills, and gained more insights since that time. He needs to be constantly climbing ladders and gaining new tricks for any new occasion that comes around.
>>152320800That's the gayest Batman I've ever seen. Gayer than Red (pink) Batman. Gayer than Batman of Zur-En-Arrh.
>>152308802You know, on top of the fact that this was kind of bullshit that Batman constantly makes up traps and plans for taking down his friends. It's more that his preptime plans for JLA members involved killing most of them. Not simply defeating them, but outright killing Plastic Man, Wonder Woman, J'onn, and Aquaman. Seems a little weird how he has such a strict No Killing rule and maintains it with every single villain he has ever fought before....but deadly force is on the table when it comes to his friends and allies. He will not hesitate to murder the fuck out of them in horrific ways. There as no guarantee Eel was going to survive being shattered like that. Batman's plans were to kill him.
>>152308898>>152313241Making contingency plans for JLA members also sort of paints him as a untrustworthy psycho that is dangerous to keep around. >>152320946And this, his plans were lethal. He is ridiculously dangerous to have around or to let remain loose.
>>152320918Haney Batman rules.
>>152313255In Heroes in Crisis, Harley took on Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman by herself, and won. with superman commenting she is a better fighter than Batman.
>>152320946he's a billionaire, ruthlessly destroying his direct competitors is about the most lore-accurate thing he could be
>>152320946>>152320966Are you guys just relying on third-hand summaries of the book? Ra's al Ghul stole the plans and modified them to be more lethal.>>152320966His in-story justification was that their bodies had already been taken over by supervillains once and it could happen again. The contingencies were for scenarios like that. Look at what happened with Hal in Emerald Twilight. It'd be negligent not to come up with countemeasures, his only mistake was not telling them about them, but post-crisis Batman was a paranoid social retard.
>>152314125Would be easier for him to memorize the speed force formula.
>>152320998
>>152320998She also later beat up Wally out in an open field in Kansas. The kind of place that Flash should never be able to lose.
>>152320547If you want to ignore the Nightwing comics, Infinite Crisis, Dark Crisis, and probably some other stuff then you do you.
>>152308802Yeah I think it's agreed upon that this is was the line in the sand separating detective Batman and Bat-God.
>>152321288>Infinite CrisisWhat did he do besides kick Alex in the face? He got BTFO.
>>152308802He's just too powerful...
>>152320998Thanks, Tom King.
>>152321895He was the heart. The one person that was better.
>>152323561Everyone loves Dick.
>>152320978Gay Batman does not rule.
>>152323561>>152323593he was supposed to die here if I remember correct
>>152317649Dick barely did anything in Dark Crisis tho except make a couple speeches and fight Slade
>>152308755>>152308802>>152308841>>152308808>>152308898>>152308916He doesn't belong in the DCU. At all. Then shared universe thing ruined superhero comics when street level.heros exist with super powered beings.
>>152315004Well, I misspoke and meant DNA testing in particular. When it started him just wearing a mask and gloves and having an unregistered red hot rod that was faster than stock was like: "yeah, dang. How would they ever find that guy?"
>>152324651It's always been a double-edged sword. One of the best stories I remember as a kid was one where Batman teamed up with Alan Scott. Sometimes it's cool when it happens.
>>152324938Despite Alan being on of the most powerful golden age heroes, his town really did turn to shit on his watch. Alan was a Gotham hero back in the 40s.
>>152321009>Are you guys just relying on third-hand summaries of the book? Ra's al Ghul stole the plans and modified them to be more lethal.Exactly. these guys didnt actually read the whole story.
>>152308898It’s been years of you posting this, you need to get over it already.
>>152324308I feel sorry for anyone who can’t enjoy Haney’s Batman.
>>152308802It's not that I even think Batman is wrong about planning if in the event the League goes bad or gets manipulated but he has to be such a sanctimonious unrepentant bastard about. I hate the Batman who can't trust anyone and thinks he's above everyone else because Batman so him being a unrepentant A-hole about it is the sticking point especially with the "Well whats your deterrent" "The entire justice league." Though now that I type this I feel I might be confusing the comic and movie. it's been a while since I sat down with either.
>>152326017>It's been years since 2+2 became 4. You need to get over it.
>>152320978Yes, yes, someone gets it!
>>152308755>When did 'Batgod' officially become a problem?O'neil leaving the editor duties.Neither in >>152308898 and >>152308787 the writers tried to made other superheroes looks bad but just increasing the level. He didn't even won in DKR and Batman in Morrison runs got big defeats and ended up being KWABedHim leaving coincide with >>152308802 but at least ToB tried to paint this as bad but the new writers and editors used that as the base of Batman becoming a schizo and a dick.You can see how Failsafe is Chip missing the point about both JLA/ToB/DKR and O'neil Batman, because he is the cool guy that should defeat Failsafe, making the point of ToB's plans be retarded.
>>152308802>>152308841Nah
Anyone found hilarious that Tom motherfucking King is the only writer that undestood DKR fight?Like, in his Superman story he said Batman would win in a fight because that would mean more for him than to superman.
>>152324938>the days when Alan was still straightahh how nostalgic
>>152324308>expresses an attraction to women>gay>>152324651Vampires and Monster Men were featured in Batman right from the beginning.
