>>152401864
>writing sucks
>manufactured tumblr sexymen
>writing really sucks

It's garbage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sso57rrNcoU

The show on itself isn't that good but I can't help but think the creator being a woman doesn't sit well with some people.

>>152401864
That's what happens when people try to glorify the demonic.
What you're seeing with this show is God's Righteous Judgement.

>>152402221
So the excuse her is people are misogynistic?

>>152401864
Too much swearing unironically. I'm not joking. Watch two or three reviews. That's the main issue.

>>152402375
Nta, but that's the reality.

>>152401864
It ostensibly exists to push keychains and posters before any other creative drive
But the fact that it’s the first “big” cartoon with indie origins was inevitably going to inspire a lot of sour grapes and petty “here’s what I would have done” jealousy

>>152402363
Shut up, faggot. I thought you were the only normal tripfag

Imagine making a show so repulsively gay that actual homosexuals find it tiresome.

>>152401864
Is Charlie even the main character?
It seems like everyone else has important roles while she's relegated to a minor one.

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Wow, a bitch writes a show about demon faggots that never shut the fuck up and it's awful.

Who would have thought.

>>152402445
Nah my faggot friends all rave about Hazbin. They only had an issue with that one Helluva Boss episode where Moxxie wore drag.

>>152401864
Charlie doesn't come out of the screen and become their wife in real life when they watch it

>>152401864
im not into a song album disguising itself as a cartoon.

>>152402472
She’s purposely written incompetent to make Alastor, Vox, and Vaggie seem more competent by comparison.
>>152402384
No one tell this guy about South Park

It’s clear that the author only really cares about the toxic gay relationships between the tumblr sexy man characters. Like seriously s2 lost the plot completely.

>>152401864
it's not the show it's the fandom
many such cases

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>>152401864
It's frustrating, because I like a bunch of the designs, and I'm a sucker for musical numbers. Hell, I've even bought some merch cause I like the characters enough. It's just the writing/narrative I have issues with. Some of it is probably that I'm not the target audience, some of it is probably limitations due to a restricted runtime, some of it is probably because Viv is an animator first and a storyteller second. But the end result is the show makes me more frustrated than if it just completely sucked. I *want* to like it more.

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>godawful writing
>very gay
>very specific niche kind of autistic
>everything viv has done
>wasted potential

>>152402556
The show is definitely not any better.

>>152401864
Because there's no bean mouth and science says that's the best character design

*slowly crunching*
too much tumblr

I hate just about all of the characters

>>152402508
South Park genuinely isn't as obnoxious as Hazbin Hotel. This is one of those autistic teen arguments that you got from Max G. There are whole memes dedicated to the excessive use of profanity in Vivianne's shows. There are compilations and challenge videos dedicated as well.
https://youtu.be/kqNCKycNXYE?si=NWBQrUumtDkyCySV

>>152402826
>Memes are ALWAYS right !!
You seem to care a lot about Yourube, maybe you could stay there?

I haven’t watched the second season yet. Was it any good?

>>152402870
I am everywhere. I know a lot about "Yourube", 4chan, ect because I'm not a minor newfag who just started using computers and just found out about South Park.

>>152402938
It’s a big improvement over season 1. The animation, voice acting, pacing, and choreography are all better. Plenty of catchy tunes.
But if you don’t get invested in Vox or Alastor then you’re shit out of luck because everything about the narrative and setting bends over backwards to shove them in the center. The finale is also an anti-climactic status quo reset despite everything building up to it.
Overall it’s 5/10 popcorn media where Season 1 was a dumpster fire.

>>152401864
Easy, they make Heaven the bad guys, which is overdone as it can get and also it's retarded

>>152402971
You’ll have to forgive me, I didn’t realize I was speaking to Mr. Internet himself! While you’re here, should I invest in Wojaks or Numa Numa Guy? Memes are an integral part of our culture, after all!

>>152403008
>You will immediately cease and not continue to access the site if you are under the age of 18.

>>152402610
The problem with the writing is, aside from the pacing?
We can say without a doubt, Vivzie's writing is heavily influenced via AO3 and such right?
Beyond fujoshi, you know the problem with that crowd? They don't realize "Make it more sensual and angsty" is the girl equivalent of "Make it more edgy, violent, and macho" for boys. It is the same 3deep5u writing. It's why something like Thirteen Reasons Why was so critically appraised despite being so shallow when you actually looked at it.
Like, Angel Dust no more three-dimensional than your average stoic action hero learning to open up. He's a pathetic sad sack who hides behind a veneer of crassness without knowing how to truly stand up for himself. He has the same "this is what I have to be" mentality as every "I want to leave the battlefield behind" warrior.

It's why there's not a single trauma in this shit more prominent than "I have daddy issues ;-;". It's why Stolas and Blitzo can be spontaneously a wholesome loving couple after doing jack shit to address their co-dependence. Hell it's why they had that massive S2 retcon for Stolas.

The writers aren't actually interested in different kinds of traumas and how they can effect different kinds of people. They want their angst, want you to cheer on their poor woobies, and want you to fall for the illusion that it's deep and meaningful

>>152402713
Stfu, fag

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>>152402221
It’s not because she’s a woman it’s because she’s a fucking fujoshi and it shows in the worst ways.

>>152402826
>This is one of those autistic teen arguments that you got from Max G
>Your opinion isn't real because I say so!
Most of us are older than you, larva

>>152402427
What are ya talkin about? I have always been an open follower of Christ.

>>152402393
Well i find it a shame that the entertainment "community" has become so anti female nowadays.

>>152402221
>must be misoginy
Interesting how the same argument NEVER comes up when it's a dude in this scenario. Take Mr. Beast for example, he is the most succesful youtuber ever but is by no means anywhere near as controversial of a public figure as Viv, yet, still has a shockingly massive hatedom that wants to see him and his company crumble in the most spectacular way imaginable at every step they take. Those haters will shill and overblow any small drama that may directly or indirectly affect him somehow in faint hope of ruining his online image for good, while someone like Pewdiepie never had the trouble of being constantly stalked online by a dedicated hatedom of this scale.

Could it be because MrBeast is a man and women on the internet completely lose their minds at seeing man succeding? Could the reason why women don't freak out the same way at Pewdiepie be because he's an attractive man, and therefore, exempt from ever being disliked by a women?

Obviously not, it's all deflection from real criticism, however, nobody actually makes those points because everyone can tell how nonsensical, superfluous and cheap these points are at face value, so how is it any different when it's a women?

The truth is that it isn't, this is what's called "double standards".

>>152403284
>>Your opinion isn't real because I say so!
Meds

>>152402445
That's because it's not made for homosexuals, it's made for fujoshi. It's like looking at a harem anime and claiming there are so many women in it that not even women like it.

I just watch it to ogle the characters as they wiggle around on the screen
I keep it muted half the time

It's garbage but the songs are good, only watching it for Al and Nifty at this point

>>152402221
Her writing is surprisingly misogynist for a female writer. The vast majority of female characters are either super incompetent or under the influence of a male.

>>152403649
Alastor, baxter and nifty are the only ones that come across as competent
Charlie and Vaggie are doing well by the end of S2 but only because of the Alastor

>>152403668
I mean Chaggie was sort of a disasterclass for the majority of S2.

>>152403289
You are a stupid faggot
>>152403299
I wish that was true, useless faggot

>>152403090
I should say that the tropes aren't bad by themselves. But that the show's answer to "why should I root for Blitzo and Stolas?"
Is "look at this sad backstory."
Stolas has the sympathetic trait of "doesn't look down on the working class", but it's solely because he wants Blitzo's dick and rather than any true sense of his actual worldview. While Blitzo's official fucking Fandom page has a hard time summing up his character outside of "selfish prick with BPD" and just throws backstory at us to make him sympathetic.

It cares so little about what makes these characters who they are, they changed Vaggie's entire backstory based on a fucking popular fan theory. Yet doesn't actually care about what made her break her own militaristic conditioning and spare the child. Because Vaggie's only character is "I wuv Charlie so much."

The characters serve the angst rather than the angst serving the characters. There's barely any platonic dynamics between support characters because the writers barely thought about how characters would interact.

This is why the Hellaverse's writing is so infuriating outside of the pacing problem. It's just the illusion of complexity and depth for characters it doesn't actually care about. None of these characters have any actual worldviews that isn't just an excuse for more angst or an attempt to make the audience like them.

It confuses angst for depth and then tries to tell a story about the nuances and complexities of people with a cast who are about as complex as Vegeta, but Vegeta at least has a backstory that actually explains his character and a clear worldview and development that guides his actions in both guilt and redemption.

I cannot say the same for Vaggie, Stolas, or anyone in this series outside of Charlie herself. And the problem is the ethos hinges on the characters being multi-faceted interesting figures with interesting psychologies, but they can't even match the benchmark set by a Dragon Ball character.

>>152403713
And yet you can't prove me wrong.

>>152402938
If you're not shouting "KINO!" when Vox Dei happens you have no soul

>>152401864
I just don't get the point of the show. In Season 1, I thought it pressed on the question whether the foundations of Heaven and Hell were cruel and wrong for condemning people who could be saved. But it takes away the merit of that question because the main antagonist Adam is just a dick and nobody even knows what does it take to go to Heaven, and Heaven is full of goober idiots who can't be really blamed for anything. Then Season 2 it throws the conflict out of the window and it's like Zootopia but worse and lots of swearing

>>152403649
>Her writing is surprisingly misogynist for a female writer. The vast majority of female characters are either super incompetent or under the influence of a male.
Yeah and they ironically still eat this slop up like catnip.
Women just gotta admit their power fantasy is having a strong man in a suit coddle them. Sailor Moon/Tuxedo Man knew this. Joker/Harley Quinn knew this. Everyone knows this.

>>152404073
It's not that deep little bro

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I have been avoiding this show for a long time. I watched the pilot when it aired because I was already aware of Viz from her artwork and shorts. As a right-wing Catholic who was pretty anti-Tumblr, I was not interested. After several years of my friends telling me I needed to give it a shot, I relented. Here's my take.

CONS:
>Season 1
>inaccurate representation of Christian theology
>muh "le Lucifer is aktually duh good guy" Tumblr cringe
>awful pacing, such that they skipped the character development so they could hit the story beats
>overmixed pop songs that don't advance (and sometimes contradict) the plot
>excessive vulgarity and profanity
>awful pacing
>pro-homo and overt political messaging
>thirst-baiting and characters that were designed to fuel the r34 machine
>painting Heaven as a place of boring, cowardly nerds
>tired and misinformed Christian tropes (Peter at the Pearly Gates, Santa Claus, cherub putti, etc.)
>awful pacing
>the fandom

PROS:
>Season 2
>respectful of Christian morality (apart from certain saints distinctly lacking virtues)
>interesting universe built around Christian mythos (if Dante, Tolkein, and Lewis can do it, sure, why not?)
>Lucifer isn't actually the good guy and his fall is more nuanced than that
>the plot revolving around morality and ethical dilemmas is actually pretty impressive
>some of the musical numbers and show tunes are absolutely well-written Broadway bangers with flawless plot progression
>the vulgarity and profanity are relegated to Hell -- the presentation of Heaven and angelic beings are free of perversion
>homosexuality is never presented as being morally righteous and all of the gay characters are in Hell
>all of the characters are pretty to look at and likeable
>hand-drawn 2D animation that doesn't use rigs
>downright beautiful explorations of redemption, confession, intercession, justice, etc.
>Emily, Sera, Speaker = par excellence

My final verdict is that I loved it. I'm looking forward to seasons 3 and 4.

>>152405341
Funny that the first impression this show gives is that it's 3edgy5u but by the end of season 2 it's actually all about repentance and giving yourself over to god

>>152405565
That was such a pleasant blindside for me. I was not expecting to be absolutely emotionally devastated by legitimate moral storytelling. I'm not going to get my hopes up too much because Viv is still areligious and claims her evangelical Christian upbringing traumatized her, but I really hope that she finds God, becomes Christian, and it reflects in the show.

>>152402476
Not defending hazbin but Dandys world isn't any better there is also a bitch who writes a show of overused style of 2d slop of toons that never shut the fuck up. Not only that this is on roblox the worst platform in the past 5 years.

>>152405341
>As a right-wing Catholic
Okay P diddy

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Actual problems the show has aside, Viv is the first person that younger millennials/older gen z sort of grew up with on the periphery of their internet life that has made it big so she attracts a special kind of attention and scrutiny. And she has also clearly not moved on from that 00s/early 10s deviantart fujo furry phase so seeing someone make it while having what's now considered a cringe aesthetic has everyone short-circuiting.

>>152406159
I've thought of that and I'm willing to bet the way she dropped the pilot cast and didn't even bring them together for any formal goodbyes to the fandom soured a lot of people.
Like, the internet is incredibly para social and between RicePirate and Elsie Lovelock? She got some heavy names even outside of Stamper and Joe who you can't really blame her for.
Then it's just. They were by no means a normal pilot cast who recorded some lines and left.
I can only imagine being a fan finding out the e-celebs who brought you to the show, cultivated the fandom, answered questions on live streams, and did little songs were all just "woosh".

Especially since you can tell some of them, particularly Michael Kovac, weren't particularly thrilled with getting dropped but were trying to remain as professional as they could

>>152405341
To be honest I only watched Hazbin because of how well the voice actors and animators did in the pilot once season 1 the animation was done by Amazon and the voice actors were changed to Broadway ones I don't know any Broadway actors so this changed my perspective. Anyways I watched season 1 immediately I saw that Amazon was inputting propaganda on how Lucifer was the good guy an how heaven is the bad guys. Charlie's plan for redemption seen in the pilot changes dramatically. Angel Dust in the pilot was at least sympathetic about the hotel meanwhile season 1 was angel Dust was just infuriating Charlie. The final battle defeating and killing Adam just because he's the "bad guy" was really weak and is only supporting the propaganda that this show is anti Christian. I had no hopes for season 2 so I didn't watch it but I watched the ending. What about the ending for season 2 anon? Didn't you find defeating Vox by having his head ripped off poorly written.

>>152401864
because none are patreon donators

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>>152406205
Tbh I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing as Viv if I was in her position. I definitely have a dream cast for my dream cartoon that's totally gonna be real one day. And, frankly, if your show is a musical you want to make sure that everyone can sing and sing *well*. I don't think Michael Kovach could've pulled off Losin' Streak. But there's no denying that Viv handled the whole thing with zero tact and grace, even if she never thought Amazon of all places would be interested in it.

I'm not watching this show but man, most of the things I'm reading here are applicable for Helluba Boss too, I guess she is just one keynote

>>152406516
It's very telling how the pilot cast has dealt with it and I really believe something went worse than what we know. Those people seemed like they really were best friends with her. As soon as she made it to Amazon Prime, Faustisse wants nothing to do with her, Ashley and Michael kept her at arms length (Ashley even warned a smaller artist that Viv was trying to sabotage the artist from working on her own project and that Viv did it in such a nasty way that Ashley was grossed out by it), and Gabriel Brown expressed his anger more overtly before dialing it down. He even confirmed Bosco and Monica had to reject that farewell song the pilot cast made because there was legitimate concern Viv would retaliate so they're doing their best to stay in her good graces. Makes sense as they keep getting hired for Helluva.

There were leaked emails where Viv said she wanted to at least keep Bosco and Kovach but she shafted them. Fans tried to excuse this with "they weren't union!" which was an absolute lie. Bosco is in SAGAFTRA and Kovach confirmed he would have gladly paid the fee for the union but it was a a deliberate choice to drop him. This shit about Viv dropping good people when reaching greater fame happened before with an animator who worked on her Die Young MV.

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>>152406684
I guess you could say Brighter was pretty autobiographical lol

>>152406570
I think another problem is lack of imagination.

Vox’s whole plan this season was to break the gates of Heaven and send an army of sinners to wipe it out. Problem is: with what transport? What weapons? You got the massive gate-cracker gun, great. But now you gotta get all these niggas over there, and make sure they don’t get deleted on sight by the Exorcists before they get in. Have some build up showing this type of preparation, like transport ships that can travel from Hell to Heaven with the sinner army, like it’s a Gundam/LOGH arc. HB already did this with the D.H.O.R.K.s making an armed underground Pope army as a throwaway scene, so they could have written/animated this.

If we want to take Vox seriously as a villain, he should show that he’s taken all this into account instead of “oh, he’s just crazy/obsessed with owning Alastor.”

>>152406730
Vox's plan was to just keep blasting Heaven until they did everything for him. Blast them once to show them what he can do. Blast them again if they won't find a way to put him in charge and get him up there. Threaten to blast them once he gets up there (THE SHINING KINGDOM OF GOD). Install his Overlord lackeys up there to keep everyone in line. Mission accomplished.

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>>152401864
>Adam erases pedophiles, murderers, and Canadians from existence
>"He's mean though, so he deserves to die!"
>Stella wants to kill her cheating faggot husband who lets demons use his magic book to kill humans in exchange for sex
>"Yeah, but she's homophobic and racist, so she deserves to be hated!"

Do women even have a moral compass?

Also, the show completely ignores how Christianity's entire idea is that Sinners can be redeemed through Christ.

>>152401864
subversive slop that undermines good and evil and writing that thinks swears and sex are the funniest thing ever in of themselves.

>>152401864
This show was clearly not meant to be an 8-episode-a-season show. It needed more time to build up its characters and story. It claims to be about redemption, but barely touches on it. Also, there's a number of plotholes and a overreliance on the characters being idiots for the plot to happen.

>>152406775
>Also, the show completely ignores how Christianity's entire idea is that Sinners can be redeemed through Christ.
the show is inspired by american schizo-calvinist "christianity" not actual christianity

>>152406775
Why do you think Viv never mentions biblical characters like Christ. Because Amazon wants to openly make a cartoon to spread satanism now out in the open.

>>152406952
please stop making this literal faggot retard show sound badass

>>152401864
Simply put, it's garbage.

>Bad/cringe writing
>"what if le demons were le good guys" slop
>all "humor" is safe edgy and juvenile
>Created by and for tumblrites that peaked in high school theater class
>Characters are basically all either tumblr sexymen or sparkledog clown vomit
>Extremely inconsistent theme and direction

The same criticisms apply to Helluva Boss because they're basically the same fucking show. I will say, somewhat to my chagrin, I do find Charlie's design in the pilot cute (same with Lute and Loona's human design). That's basically the only upside to any of Viv's slop. And no, >>152402221 is being a faggot, it has basically nothing to do with Viv herself, although Vivziepop being obnoxious and detestable certainly doesn't help either.

>>152401864
Its not episodic comedyslop where sinners fail spectacularly at not being pieces of shit.

>>152404073
>Sailor Moon/Tuxedo Man
Tuxedo Mask

>>152401864
It’s a musical

>>152406983
>Loona's human design
Throw yourself off of a bridge.

>>152401864
Because I liked the pilot but then it ditched that premise and is just garbage

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>>152405341
>homosexuality is never presented as being morally righteous and all of the gay characters are in Hell

>Pentious is canonically bi and went to heaven
>Saint Peter is a flamboyant twink who considers everyone in Heaven hot
>Emily considered Angel Dust worthy of Heaven
>A movie poster of one of the Christmas films form Heaven depicts a gay couple
>Adam and Lute are considered bisexual by their VA's, also Lute wanted to fuck Vaggie
>Sam Haft joked about Abel being bi too
>Not gay but still unchristian, Emily's voice actress said that she is a freak in bed
>Heaven is getting more present in merch which means is pretty possible they'll reveal the canon sexualities of some of the heaven cast

Emjoy while it lasts anon...

>>152408487
>>Adam and Lute are considered bisexual by their VA's, also Lute wanted to fuck Vaggie
Lute is a raging homophobe.

>>152408487
It's weird Hell is all themed around sex and drugs and gambling but the writers of the show don't seem to believe any of those things are sinful which makes you wonder why are those people in Hell to begin with

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Don't care if anyone hates it. I don't even care that *I* hate it!

Charlie a cute. Want to put penis in Charlie.

>>152408516
There are homophobic self hating gays out there and Lute's hate for Vaggie and Charlie relationship could easily be because they are a fallen angel and a demon
>>152408525
They are traditional sinful things after all they just play with the stereotypes, also it's more the addiction than the act

>>152401864
It should've been an adult comedy instead of FiM but edgy.

>>152406684
>>152406714
When Amazon was doing the promo interviews, one of them was this one where the new cast talks about the fun of the project and the amazing fandom they've been interacting with and this and that.
That was the moment I sorta felt.. angry. I don't think the pilot cast are bad people or anything. They were largely going off of the pitches Amazon was throwing them. But this was an interview done for the premiere.
The fandom they were talking about was for something they had no part in fostering yet it seemed the interviewer was deliberately asking the questions to create the illusion they had all been there from day one.
In fact, I think Amazon's larger motive for being the distributor is simply they want in on the absolute goldmine that is a show with a heavy online fandom culture aspect, so they needed to make it look a certain way.
>>152406516
I'm gonna say like, was there a way to do this gracefully? I sorta thought about this but like, any passing of the torch ceremony or relegation to shorter roles?
After you spent literal years keeping hype alive for Vivzie? Did the songs, did the livestreams, did the art streams? Basically kept the hype alive for her so the Amazon deal could happen?
Because that's what they were mad about. Replacing pilot to show is common. But they went way beyond a pilot cast.

I'd be fucking pissed. It's being let go from a job at a company you've been with since day one and then the boss who fired you throws a goodbye pizza party.
Then going by my above post. Amazon and A24 didn't do the recast. I can't say the same for the general advertising, and part of the general advertising seemed to ignore the original hype around the indie origins. And I think that's, again, because they wanted Hazbin to be an A24/Amazon production in the eyes of the public because that's what nets the sweet fandom crowd money.

>>152408525
There's a billboard in heaven about the virtues in one episode. It replaces "chastity" with "science."
People in other threads have pointed it out but Vivzie doesn't seem to understand what the seven deadly sins.. are. As far back as their pre-Christian origins in Arthurian legend. Vivzie doesn't seem to get the core idea that they're the "deadly" sins because they all feed into one another with Pride and Sloth being the two that ensure you stay within the cycle.

>>152403289
>>152403299
Why is every name fag a schizo?

>>152406714
Hmm. Perhaps Vivzie does have that vaulting ambition, but Vox's decision to cut out his friends is shown to be a bad thing, both for him and in general.

I dunno I don't get why she got rid of the Pilot Cast, but maybe some marketing guy got ahold of her and said "You want your cartoon you need talent with metrics."

At the very least it can't be as simple as her just going for the shiniest cast she could get, lots of one hand washing the other in entertainment - at least - I think?

>>152408911
Because to namefag on an Anonymous imageboard outside the context of dumping some comics or translations means you're an attentionwhore

>>152406210
> immediately I saw that Amazon was inputting propaganda on how Lucifer was the good guy an how heaven is the bad guys
Season 1 was fully completed WELL before Amazon was involved at all. Do people really not remember? The show was in limbo for ages because it was finished but they didn’t have a distributor.

>>152406952
Amazon licenses the show, retard, they don’t make it.

>>152408928
Tbh only Charlie and Alastor sing in the pilot, could the rest of the pilot cast sing on a Broadway level? The series Alastor was her dream casting before she made the pilot
Vaggie, husk and nifty didn't sound particularly good and we all know the original pentious wasn't in the right place to star in a show
I didn't even notice they changed charlie

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What was the point of this scene if Charlie wasn't even the one who defeated Vox at the end (I don't even mean physically, it could have been a moral victory, or a moment where she has to rethink her beliefs because some people simply aren't redeemable)? Instead what she did all season was cry, bitch at her dad, cry some more, get sex for crying and bitching, letting Angel Dust go back to the evil rape building with no resistance because?
We're 16 episodes in and we still don't know what drives this worthless character's worldview other than a vague "muh mommy issues".

Yeah, can't imagine why a cartoon with majority bi/gay vast would be hated by 4chan lol. The more interesting questioning is why woke people who would be otherwise the demographic for the show absolutely despise Vivzie and her shows.

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When will Vivzie have her first heart attack?

>could tell the lightning screams was Zach Hadel before his cameo as the rabbit
I watch too much Oneyplays

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>here's your exclusive $200 collector's edition item, sir

>>152409081
Yes. Nothing says covert spy watch like a massive hunk of a plastic brick strapped to your wrist.

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>>152401864
I haven't even seen Hazbin Hotel past the pilot, but what I've gathered is that (1) the excessive swearing, (2) lack of variety in character proportions throughout the main cast, and (3) Viv's childish response to such criticisms are what make the series so ripe for ridicule. It's pretty universally loved otherwise.

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>>152402221
I seriously doubt that's the reason. There's a hundred other things that would upset people before they even found out who crated it.

>>152406714
My schizo theory is that Vox's backstory had to be so stupid because if it were slightly more realistic it would have hit too close to home

>>152408983
Remind everyone the point of the show was about redeeming people I guess (even though season 2 wasn't about that)

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>>152408740
>I'm gonna say like, was there a way to do this gracefully? I sorta thought about this but like, any passing of the torch ceremony or relegation to shorter roles?
Characters being recast from pilot to show is pretty normal. The problem is that Viv didn't maintain a professional distance from the pilot cast. If she had just done that and set some reasonable expectations from the start it wouldn't be running joke in indie animation to respect your pilot voice actors.

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>>152408487
>Emily's voice actress said that she is a freak in bed

I mean, everybody already knew that.

>>152409286
Like I said though. Hazbin's pilot cast? Not a normal pilot cast. A normal pilot cast doesn't spend years after the fact keeping the momentum going with songs, livestreams, and consistent fandom interaction. Vivzie carried a lot of the hype herself but they were always part of that endeavor and were a core part of the fandom that was built.
I also don't think Vivzie created the professional distance. The pilot cast did themselves. RicePirate, Monica Franco, and Bosco are all still around.

The sore spot of Vivzie replacing them isn't that she replaced the cast. The best analogy I can make is that there are two people.One represents Vivzie, one represents the pilot cast and some of the whole crew.
So person B is helping person A move into an apartment, they spend their morning hauling large heavy boxes and even have to carry a couch up together. The whole time, Person A hypes up a party to break the place in.
Then when they finish. Person A turns to Person B and says "thanks! Now get the fuck out of my house, I want my cooler friends to break this place in with a party! And I need those cooler people for my reputation in my new neighborhood!"
If you are Person B in this scenario. Are you gonna be satisfied because Person A gave you some store-bought cookies and the party's cheapest beer?
Because from what I can tell, that was the plan for the pilot cast, "additional voices", not even notable cameos if RicePirate's is anything to go by.
Kovach seems to be the most upset because he's the one whose career was outright made by the pilot compared to the Newgrounds guys or Elsie Lovelock who already had good followings. He was probably attached because it was his first time getting to see his work mean something to such a larger fandom in such a capacity.

>>152401864

Because it is higjly satanic it has DEMONS

>>152409424
Well, did the pilot cast ever say that Vivzie lead them on? Cause we know some artists do do that, not to name names. But some just commission others for a set piece of work, and the payment is what they get, end of story. Was Vivieziepop leading the pilot cast on verbally while insulating herself legally, or not? If my dipshit friend insists on moving furniture into my apartment despite me saying he doesn't have to and despite me already paying him to do so, is he really entitled to the party? That all changes if I was really leading him on the whole time ofc but you know what I mean

>>152409476
Considering Vivzie had them doing these livestreams, and Vivzie had them sing for animated music videos, and Vivzie encouraged as much interaction with the fandom as possible?
"Led them on" isn't the term but it's like, you getting fired from a job you did extremely well, under a boss who told you you were a valued member of the team, only to be replaced by the son of someone your boss is cozying up to and offered a shittier lower paying expendable job as consolation.

There's another element to Vivzie's hatedom that isn't on her is touched upon in >>152406159
Every time we see a major indie success from people from an internet crowd, we jump to the idea that "this is it, this is the one that democratizes media and makes the crowdfunded landscape of passion projects free from the conglomerates and gives power to the internet possible."

And the problem is, that ship sailed LONG before any of this went down. That ship sailed when terms like "influencer" and "content creator" were made as a means of viably incorporating online talent into the pre-existing landscape via large networks of talents and agencies with connections to sites like youtube specifically so they wouldn't destroy it.
People have noted, that Youtube's algorithm seems deliberately designed so that you can make videos trend or suppress them based on whatever phone call is made
>Lower the standard to put it on trending
>Push it more in recommendations
And as the MrBeast scandal and "leafy was here" conspiracies revealed.
>Make sure this particular video from this particular popular creator doesn't pop up as much in recommendations.

It turns the potential threat into a talent scouting/vetting zone and no, it's not just politics. Asmongold and Hasan Piker are managed by the exact same agency, which used to also manage MrBeast.
The point is to artificially make it so that the goal of indie is to become accepted within the very system everyone wanted it to subvert.

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I'm obviously violently homophobic and a competitive misogynist but I feel the parts when they aren't singing make zero sense and kind of suck. Like she wrote the songs first and had to bend the story around them. Now in my violent homophobia I don't know shit about musicals but I'd assume there's a step where you ask yourself if the numbers and overall plot form a cohesive thing, and maybe you end up moving things a bit instead of going "ah, fuck, it's been twenty minutes, the spider should sing something" and Viv skipped that.

>>152409666
Take Glitch for instance, they're basically becoming "the" indie studio for animation in the same way that A24 became "the" mid-budget standalone film studio.

That's the thing. Media conglomerates fucking love this set-up. Because if "Glitch" becomes "where you go to watch the indie stuff", it fucking placates us.
It ensures that indie animation exists within the framework that those companies control. You wanna successful indie animation project? Gotta go through Glitch.
Vivzie was never gonna be the person who made indie animation look possible because the system is rigged. Indie animation is possible with the caveat that you don't rock the boat. If you rock it, they steady it.
This is why they prefer the internet centralized to a select handful of websites. It makes shit easier to control.

>>152409424
I think most people consider it normal to profit off of someone’s personal investment beyond the letter of the agreement and not owe them anything for it if they chose to do that. It’s a common definition of success. It’s not always the right thing to do artist-to-artist and can ruin relationships but it’s normal. Likewise not assuming anything beyond the clear agreements is basic professionalism as an artist and your emotional reactions to getting a job are a private issue. Hollywood creates a weird divide. People expect too much because they get attached. Then the wealth disparity is so life-or-death that someone “making it” on “your” work represents something more than just that to people who don’t have the security yet. Like yeah, they showed up and shared hope for success because they felt like a part of it. This is also the risk with fans. It’s hard for someone to take in all that support and keep personal boundaries clear. People will feel taken for granted no matter what and artists will usually be right about it. But putting all their expectations on Vivzie because she “made it” is not fair or realistic. It puts more attention on her instead of focusing on ways to change the business when they’re really mad about unfairness in general. It happens all the time in those situations, just look at the Owl House threads.

>>152409453
By that rule, then DOOM, Sousou no Frieren and Faith The Unholy Trinity, The Exorcist would be also Satanic even if they depict the demons as irredeemable bastards who only want to kill everyone, rape children and eat babies

>>152409820
You say that but the Exorcist literally got dragged over hot coals for exactly that back in the day by angry Evangelical groups.
14 year old Linda Blair had to walk around with a fucking team of armed body guards at all times because she wasn't just "receiving death threats" but because actual fucking angry mobs kept hounding her and threatening harm to her face

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>>152409794
Reminds me of this Strong Bad email about indie movies
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kjwlrvcKcfI

>>152401864
I just watched it recently with no prior knowledge and enjoyed it. I think the fact that the fanbase spent 10 years forging their own headcanon before the show actually came out is why it gets so much hate.

>>152406210
A lot of it is poorly written, but I still enjoyed the finale. I think the parts they get right, though, outweigh the parts they get wrong.

>>152408487
>Pentious is canonically bi and went to heaven
Sexual attraction is irrelevant as long as they keep Heaven chaste. The problem isn't philia between members of the same sex, it's eros. If they can keep from depicting gay sex in Heaven, I'll be satisfied to believe that any of the gay people in Heaven remain completely chaste, even if their affection is generally considered romantic.
>Saint Peter is a flamboyant twink who considers everyone in Heaven hot
Yeah, I don't like what they did to Peter. I can accept that he's not saying that everyone is hot in a way that implies he has a sexual attraction to everyone. Rather, in this version of Heaven it would make sense that anyone who was ugly on Earth would find their new forms in Heaven attractive.
>Emily considered Angel Dust worthy of Heaven
I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that Emily just advocated for Charlie to be given the attempt to redeem Angel because he showed improvement. I don't think she considered Angel Dust as ready for Heaven at that precise moment, but thought there might be a possibility of redemption.
>Adam and Lute are considered bisexual by their VA's, also Lute wanted to fuck Vaggie
>Sam Haft joked about Abel being bi too
>Not gay but still unchristian, Emily's voice actress said that she is a freak in bed
I don't particularly care what the secular, sex-crazed staff say of their own characters. Just because a VA says something, doesn't make it canon. As long as they don't put it in the show, the VA's can claim whatever they want for the attention.
>... they'll reveal the canon sexualities of some of the heaven cast
I'm fairly certain that at least some same-sex attracted people make it to Heaven by enduring a life of chaste abstinence and suppressing their perverted desires. Straight people have to overcome lust, too.

>>152409858
That doesn't excuse that now it's A-OK to vilify Christianity, Christians, Sainted Figures, Angels, Jesus and even the Lord Almighty, and it isn't an excuse for Vivzie to be bitter tumblrite feminazi

>>152409872
Well, that's not wrong.
Wanna know what they're afraid of? Look at gaming.
In the years of Fez and braid, triple-A had it all on-lock. That Minecraft thing kinda spooped them but it was no big deal.
Stuff kept getting more expensive and people gave indie a try and suddenly? Boom. Gone was the idea of hipster shit. Gone was the idea of a whining trustfund baby making games that were 2deep4u.
Because people learned that indie devs were largely just making whatever they fucking felt like making.
Now, the most popular VR game is Gorilla Tag, Silksong was championed over every triple A release of 2025 and broke the online stores, streamers are running around playing military shooters made by guys somewhere in Eastern Europe.

The whole fucking landscape changed. And the worst part is there is no controlling or trying to predict this landscape. Companies have to sit there and let it happen.
Even in terms of big stuff from big budgets, random Chinese gachashit is able to run in and casually dropkick major triple A releases from major franchises because the rulebook has been thrown out the window.
Like, can you even imagine that a decade ago? Even in terms of something we'd consider slop, Palworld was a threat to Pokemon.

They do not want this shit happening with movies and animation, they will fight to keep it from happening with movies and animation like we saw with Iron Lung and they're gonna try to do that by letting Iron Lung take the win and then using it to set up a new pipeline towards the old landscape

>>152409959
>I'm fairly certain that at least some same-sex attracted people make it to Heaven by enduring a life of chaste abstinence and suppressing their perverted desires. Straight people have to overcome lust, too.

Adam was in heaven and he outright said he fucked a "virtue chick" in the first episode so it implies casual sex is a thing in this universe's Heaven and can be said openly.

>I can accept that he's not saying that everyone is hot in a way that implies he has a sexual attraction to everyone.

He moaned while singing this

>I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that Emily just advocated for Charlie to be given the attempt to redeem Angel because he showed improvement.

Could be but this was Emily's first lines in "You didn't Know":

"But she was right, Sera
She showed us a soul can improve
He saw the light, Sera
Checked all the boxes that you said would
Prove a person deserves a second chance
Now we turn our backs, no second glance?"

Of course the checklist was something made up by Adam on the spot but in that moment they were thought to be how to go to Heaven

>I don't particularly care what the secular, sex-crazed staff say of their own characters. Just because a VA says something, doesn't make it canon. As long as they don't put it in the show, the VA's can claim whatever they want for the attention.

Could be just a joke or to pander the fandom, but keep in mind they are recording season 4 by now, so they know things about the characters we still don't. The one about Emily, her voice actress revealed in that same interview she has a hard time getting in a relationship which corresponds with the character's casting sheet song being Queen's "Somebody to Love"

>>152409972
The only Christian figure villified is Adam, the rest are abstent or played for laughs but still on the good side

>>152410120
>Adam was in heaven and he outright said he fucked a "virtue chick" in the first episode
Yeah, and Adam fell from Heaven and died. Lute is probably going to fall because of her desire for revenge. The show isn't taking the route of souls being static after death, so I have to accept that if damned sinners can be redeemed, then saved saints can also fall from grace. So, as far as I know, Adam's behavior isn't normalized in Heaven and it also leads to expulsion. Not by decree, but by ordainment.

>He moaned while singing this
No he didn't. He moans "Oh!" after many lines for the musicality, but not even after that line that ends in a vocal flourish. The "moans" consist of:
>"Welcome to Heaven, oh-oh"
>"Where the virtuous reside 24/7, oh-oh"
>"Welcome to Heaven, oh-oh"
>"The spirits leaven, oh!"
And they're all performative. I think it's disingenuous to say he was moaning with sexual excitement at the end of the song.

>"You didn't Know"
Yeah, but she wasn't saying that Angel should immediately be accepted into Heaven. She was just siding with Charlie about the opportunity to try and redeem souls. The position was essentially: "We don't know what causes a person to be merit Heaven, but this Angel guy checked all the boxes we proposed, so that means we should give Charlie a shot."

>they are recording season 4 by now
Yeah, I'm excited for the show to continue, but worried that they are going to start moving in the wrong direction. The moral messaging delivered so far is on point, but if they start promoting the type of relationship demonstrated in the song "Easy" between Charlie and Vaggi as though it were ideal, I'm going to have a problem with it.

>>152410181
That's the problem, you vilify one, you've already screw up, but also she made Eve into Eldritch Carmen San Diego, so that's makes two, and it's even worse when you remember that we need Adam and Eve to get to JESUS and for Humanity to commune with God through him, so yeah, Ultimate Heresy from that Fat Twat

>>152401864
Everything about the show is terrible.
It amazes it even has an audience, just like Steve universe
>>152402221
Peopled love Lauren faust and Rebeca sugar stuff

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>>152410339
>The moral messaging delivered so far is on point, but if they start promoting the type of relationship demonstrated in the song "Easy" between Charlie and Vaggi as though it were ideal, I'm going to have a problem with it.

>>152410339
>The moral messaging delivered so far is on point, but if they start promoting the type of relationship demonstrated in the song "Easy" between Charlie and Vaggi as though it were ideal, I'm going to have a problem with it.

Then you definetly are going to have a problem because "Easy" is obviously portrayed as something positive and that's the direction it will take, so yeah, get ready

>>152410608
Yeah, that is what I'm trying to brace for. I didn't like "Easy," but I still had the solace of knowing that it focuses on a fallen angel and a half-demon in Hell. If they had a scene like that in Heaven between two angels or saints and they weren't framing it as a deviation from proper behavior, then I'd have to admit the show was just fucked.

>>152410373
I said earlier in this thread. The problem isn't female writers. The problem is a bulk of the current ones are heavily influenced by AO3 and have a 3deep5u writing philosophy that boils down to "angst= good interesting character"
Angst and trauma needs to service interesting characters, influence their actions and their worldviews while interacting with traits that exist outside the scope of said angst/trauma.

Look at Blitzo's fandom page. The personality section.
I could literally chop that entire thing down to "Dis nigga has validation issues and borderline personality disorder."
We don't have any context for what makes him a good friend or a good person deep down outside of forced moments like the Apology Tour. He is nothing BUT his angst. We're told he cares so much about his business but we rarely see anything related to that element of him except for season one Stolas episodes which have just be retconned as their starcrossed angsty love. He has no real character, just the angsty illusion of one.

>>152401864
Its a musical about hell where the demons and sinners are the protaganists. That's already going to piss people off.
Its very Tumblr like but not always PC enough for that crowd so that will piss some of them off.
Alot of gay and woke stuff, that pisses some people off too.
The world building while not as bad as some people say, certainly isnt as in depth as many fans would want, and it has made some controversial writing choices. Its very disney for adults which is not everyone's cup of tea.
So really the miracle is that its as popular as it is to begin with. By all rights it should have never gotten greenlit.

>>152402221
They are demons living in Hell, but they spend more time singing and dancing that torturing humans or spreading evil.
And the four fingers in hands.

>>152410339
>if they start promoting the type of relationship demonstrated in the song "Easy" between Charlie and Vaggi as though it were ideal, I'm going to have a problem with it
I know you're referring to the homo part, but that relationship has so many actual relationship problems I can't possibly take it seriously. Vaggie is completely reduced to her Charlie's girlfriend role with barely any plotline on her own, and I'm pretty sure even the writers are somewhat aware of that, with that ridiculous name subplot, but for the life of them they still can't give her anything more. Charlie is straight up an asshole, and a spoiled rotten one at that, she doesn't listen to anyone, gets angry at everyone for trying to help but in a way SHE doesn't like, Vaggie has to literally walk on eggshells around her or she'll get angry and either cry or run off doing something stupid and after everything she still rewards Charlie with sex, which is the only fucking way this supposedly good couple manage to get things right after a fight, god forbid talking their problems out.

>>152408587
Please don't compare FIM to Hazbin ever again. Mlp was at least decent.

>>152406684
Legit who cares about the pilot cast? They sucked and couldn’t deliver the broadway tier vocal performances that Viv needed for the full show.

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>>152401864
For all sad words of tongue and pen the saddest are these, "It might have been!"

>>152401864
Not very good in general, but it can't be understated how much damage an awful and extremely defensive fanbase can do to perceptions.

>>152412377
You know very well people cared about them. I remember when the recasts first came to light and no one here liked it.

Every important piece of art has people that sincerely hate it, with bad art ppl are ambivalent about it,
most of the biggest franchises people treat as juggernauts like spongebob or pokemon had hatedoms, Mortal Kombat, Doom, CS GO were controversial to the point of government hearings
Almost the majority of highly rated classics are this way, people hated movies like the thing, the shining, its a wonderful life, books like The Catcher in the Rye The Grapes of Wrath, Ulysses,
basically anything worth caring about has strong reactions on both sides, one side that is passionate enough to go out and buy all the stuffed animals and shirts and the other that makes 4chan threads, twitter posts, and youtube videos about how much they hate it