Discuss Batman Returns (1992)This is a weird movie.>How did the Penguin get the plans to the Batmobile?>Why is Max trying to get Penguin elected Mayor in Dec when elections are in Nov?>Selina gets pushed out a window, survives and Max's reaction is "Uh, well she better not try and blackmail me". Like, What?>Catwoman puts a live bird in her mouth.>Christmas queen falls off a building and three seconds later the cops are SHOOTING Batman off the building while Penguin is still there. Where the fuck where they?.>So much cringe one-liners
>>152916063>How did the Penguin get the plans to the Batmobile?From the manufacturer>Why is Max trying to get Penguin elected Mayor in Dec when elections are in Nov?Elections were postponed, possibly due to circus-themed crimewave>Selina gets pushed out a window, survives and Max's reaction is "Uh, well she better not try and blackmail me". Like, What?Because stranger things have happened in Gotham and she could totally blackmail him for trying to kill her.>Catwoman puts a live bird in her mouth.She was going all-in on behaving like a cat.>Christmas queen falls off a building and three seconds later the cops are SHOOTING Batman off the building while Penguin is still there. Where the fuck where they?.Penguin tricked them into thinking Batman did it by using bats as the murder weapon, they arrived just in time to see her die because of bats.
>>152916063>>So much cringe one-linersImagine wasting your life, typing this out. Showing everyone what a miserable loser you are.
>>152916063>How did the Penguin get the plans to the Batmobile?Depends on whether you consider the Revolution novel as canon.
>>152916063>So much cringe one-linersDropped. Was going to engage with you but you don't have the capacity.
>>152916063That poster shouldn't work design wise, but it just does wtf.
>>152916063batman and christmas is kino
>>152916063Sometime about a year ago they played this at a local theater and these young zoomer girls in front of me walked out half way through the movie presumably because of the constant crass sex puns coming from the penguin. Batman returns fucking rocks and im sorry you got filtered just like the pack of foids at my local kinoplex, OP.
>>152916063Poorly thought out. It was earlier enough so the studio didn't get what characterization means. Next question.
>>152916617Nonsensical
It’s a flawed film that strays further from the comics than the first one did. Still, I love it. At times, it feels surreal, while at others, it feels like a fable or a fairy tale. It's a pretty bad Batman movie, but a very good Burton film.
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>>152916063I watch it every Christmas.
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>>152916761This is the last one.
>>152916680The thing is, that version of the Penguin is nothing like the comics, but it makes for a perfect original Batman villain. As if the Mole man from FF was a Batman villain.
>>152916063>Why is Max trying to get Penguin elected Mayor in Dec when elections are in Nov?Wasn't it a recall vote?
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>>152916690That certainly would have been something that upset parents more than we got
>>152916063>>>/tv/
>>152916063I saw this with a friend, and she whispered to me that she'd love to try a vatsuit like the one used by michelle Pfeiffer.
>>152919287Either you got to fuck her or you're a massive simp
It's a heightened over the top reality
I just get the feeling from the film that Warner Execs made changes to the shooting script that Burton was forced to accept. Because you know what happens when the suits get involved in a film.
It's an awful movie, but I love it. It's my guilty pleasure and I stand by it. It's strength doesn't lie in the story, but in the music, the cinematography, the costumes, the general art direction. The fucking Siouxsie and the Banshees song.
>>152921456It's better than '89. The first has an incredible opening act, setting up the world of Gotham is peak, the set costume and prop design outstanding, there's momentum and intrigue. Then it grinds to a halt and ends as The Joker shows up and chews scenery for an hour. Which is a blast, watching an actor have a ball, it's a lot of fun, but there's no more momentum or through line really. He does some stuff, then they're obliged to quickly face off at the end, as that's how movies end, and it's dramatically inert. No stakes, nothing much interesting going on. It's iconic, loved it as a kid and still enjoy watching it, but it's not actually a good film. Returns has the maudlin heart with Penguin, the investment in Bruce and Selina, instead of a by-the-numbers approach it has absurdity, whimsy, strangeness, a point of view.
>>152921636I rewatched both not too long ago and I found Batman the better film. Returns tried to do too much with two (three counting Walken) villains.
>>152921439no it's kind of the opposite. WB was hands off, Burton was weirdly non-vocal and played hardball with everyone inclusion the screenwriter who I believe he personally chose. Guys like Bob Ringwood who did the costumes say Burton was on a lot of coke at the time. Batman Forever happened precisely because of hands-off they were with Returns.
>>152916063This movie is the best Batman movie and one of my favorite movies of all time.
>>152916063Why did a major hollywood studio make such an obvious anti semitic film ?
>>152923260It is interesting that the penguin’s story is an inversion of the Moses myth
>>152916063I've never understood how we went from 1989 Batman to this it doesn't feel like the same universe or characters at all
>>152916063The general consensus from people is that it's good Tim Burton movie, not a very good Batman movie.
>>152916230Fpbp
>>152923596https://www.money-into-light.com/2016/06/daniel-waters-on-batman-returns.html>Did you get the impression that Tim wasn't very interested in doing a direct sequel to the first film? >Oh, absolutely. He was not crazy about BATMAN (1989). And I wasn't crazy about it either. It had great production design and all that, but I didn't like the movie. One of my issues about the film made it into a line in BATMAN RETURNS – Bruce Wayne saying to Alfred ''And who let Vicki Vale into the Batcave?'' I really didn't like Robert Wuhl's character, the reporter guy, so I had a scene in my script where I had him crucified to the Batsignal, with his dead body flashing all over the city. Tim made a big thing of saying ''Can we just pretend the first one doesn't exist? Let's just not even address it. '' He was always more interested in the characters than in the action or the spectacle, or even the plot. I remember asking him what we should call the movie and he said ''Do we have to give it a title? Everybody is going to know what it is when it comes out. ''
>Bruce Wayne... What are you dressed up like Batman?
>>152923791Walken makes this movie singlehandedly worth watching. I'm surprised Schrek wasn't adapted to the comics or cartoons the way Harley Quinn was.
>>152923596This. I like them both but 89 is a Batman movie, Returns is a Batman-themed comedy. The production design in 89 is perfect and it’s sad to me that they kind of just abandoned that and started over in the second one so they could film it in Los Angeles.
>>152923708>>Oh, absolutely. He was not crazy about BATMAN (1989). And I wasn't crazy about it either. It had great production design and all that, but I didn't like the movie. One of my issues about the film made it into a line in BATMAN RETURNS – Bruce Wayne saying to Alfred ''And who let Vicki Vale into the Batcave?'' I really didn't like Robert Wuhl's character, the reporter guy, so I had a scene in my script where I had him crucified to the Batsignal, with his dead body flashing all over the city. Tim made a big thing of saying ''Can we just pretend the first one doesn't exist? Let's just not even address it. '' He was always more interested in the characters than in the action or the spectacle, or even the plot. I remember asking him what we should call the movie and he said ''Do we have to give it a title? Everybody is going to know what it is when it comes out. ''Based, they were right
>>152921439Lmao no>>152922512It's this. Burton's first Batman was so successful they gave him a free hand with the sequel, hence this absolute fucking disaster of a non-Batman movie wallowing in Burtonanism.
>>152923791He's great in it, one of the best parts, but I will also always wonder about the alternate universe where it was Billy D's Harvey Dent going Two-Face.
>>152924397Going by >>152923708 the only demand they made was that it absolutely had to have both Penguin and Catwoman and they also brought in another scriptwriter to make it more normie friendly.>Whose decision was it to have both Penguin and Catwoman in the film? >That was so set in stone by Warners that there was never even a conversation about it. They were already in Sam Hamm's drafts. Some Illuminati decision was made way before I was brought on. We were one of the first films to top-load with villains. Nowadays it's par for the course. >How did your first draft differ from the final draft? >What I like about the Catwoman character and what I like about the movie in general is definitely there in the movie and intact. It makes me feel like I am up there in many ways. When I was contractually done with the movie, another writer, Wesley Strick, was brought on by Warners, to, in Denise Di Novi's words, 'normalise the movie a little bit.'' After I went on and did other movies I came to realise that for another writer coming in, Wesley Strick protected so much of my stuff. He did however bring in a lot of pop culture references that I had tried to keep out of the movie. There's a Love Connection joke that I can't stand. There's a Geraldo reference, and a Norman Bates reference that I don't like. He also added all the stuff about the 'firstborns' of Gotham City and the list of names. I guess it was to make more of a through line to the movie about what Penguin's plan is. Penguin just being a disgruntled bad guy who wanted to get back at the city was good enough for me. Tim didn't really have any feeling one way or the other about such things. There were a lot of things in Wesley's first draft that I hated, and I sent an angry 14-page fax to Tim Burton's office. I got a confirmation that only 13 pages had gone through, so I had to send the whole 14 pages again. It ended up causing way too much drama. That was not good.
>>152924421This is an internet myth, there was never any version where Schrek was Dent. The first script by Sam Hamm was completely different then the script written by Dan Waters had Schrek from the start
>>152916063>How did the Penguin get the plans to the Batmobile?Batman didn't put up his shield at the beginning of the movie.
>>152916587higher resolution
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BTAS
>>152926579Paul Williams Batman ost or elfman colab would go hard,lhttps://youtu.be/U6rzVVwvlLU?si=yVE_X1Ntm6dqNptu
>>152923808Scumbag normal corporate criminal that’s reoccurring as a secondary antagonist would be fun.
>>152916063I fucking hate this movie. Batman himself struggles to even hold relevancy in the story and Burton clearly did not read any actual comic material to figure out just who the hell all these characters actually are.>Penguin goes from a loutish crime lord with delusions of class to a literal fucking sewer mutant who kidnaps babies>Catwoman is literally insane and isn't even a thief>Batman straight up kills random goons and grins like a doofus while doing soLike fuck off! FUCK OFF!Also what WAS that business with that proposed power plant, anyway? They straight up said that it looked more like it was designed to take and store power rather than generate it, like it was going to be revealed to be a weapon or something, and then it just disappeared entirely from the story.
>>152919287As goofy as the entire movie premise is and inaccurate the characters are, this is my favorite movie depiction of Batman and Catwoman's relationship. Some sexual tension, but they're not partners. She's on her own side.
>>152927498filtered
>>152927498>Also what WAS that business with that proposed power plant, anyway?Max wants a monopoly on Gotham's entire electrical infrastructure, basically sucking it up and selling it back at jacked-up prices. The whole reason why the Mayor Penguin subplot happens is because Max can't get the zoning permits from the current Mayor, so Penguin already being indebted to him means he's got a convenient puppet to manipulate towards his own goals.
>>152929964wtf
>>152916940It's an adaptation of a comic book. That counts.
>>152927498This. Why make Penguin or Catwoman actually interesting when you could just adapt from the comics where>Penguin is a penguin-themed bank robber >Catwoman is a cat-themed bank robberAdherence to (always changing) comic lore is way more important than being interesting
I really liked the feel of Gotham in this one to be honest.
>>152931821Because then you'd get the Adam West Batman again, and everybody in the 90s was still ashamed of that old fossil.
>>152931821There’s an interview with Daniel Waters where he talks a out how people will tell him he got Catwoman’s origin all wrong, and he’s like “ come on, isn’t my version way more interesting?”
>>152916768>Oswald, either the penguins go, or you go!
>>152933090What even was Catwoman's origin before Miller made her a dominatrix in Year One?
>>152916800Burton's Batman films are the case where I'm okay with them straying considerably from the comics since they're too damn entertaining on their own right. Of course I prefer comic accuracy but if you're gonna deviate, do something creative instead of just watering down the source material.
>>152923596I imagine Burton was given more free reign given his rise in popularity and prestige since the first one. Whereas you feel the restraint in '89, Returns is Burton at full display.
>>152934168She simply didn't have one, just showed up and stole things for the thrill of it. Eventually they retconned it so that Earth Two Catwoman was a bitter divorcee to a mean rich man and decided to turn to crime out of spite.
>>152934345>She simply didn't have one, just showed up and stole things for the thrill of it.And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I remember being really dissapointed when they announced that The Penguin would be the main antagonist, since well what most people knew about The Penguin at the time was "The goofy tuxedo guy with a silly voice and the umbrellas" and I was expecting a more threatening villain like Two-face or The Scarecrow. But the movie did help me change my opinion on characters that seem "lame" at first glance.
>>152934229I think as long as the spirit of the original material is there it’s more important to make an actual movie over just fan service. It’s why I’ll always like the Raimi Spider-Man movies and even Ang Lee’s Hulk over about anything that’s come out of the MCU
>>152916690>dress cut so low the areolas are showingThis was an actual fashion for noblewomen in 15th century France.
>>152934580>as long as the spirit of the original material is thereOh absolutely, I think tone, theme and ethos are what's most important when adapting anything. The MCU claims to be respectful iof the comics but it mostly limits itself to the visuals; when you go deep into it, the entire core of the characters is changed.
>>152934583>actual fashionThis is a bustier. An old fanshioned and fancy lingerie.
>>152923565Bruce Wayne is supposed to be a real WASPy type protecting Gotham from a horrible jewish stereotype from using pity to gain political power.>Penguin is sexually obsessed with a blonde blue eyed white woman>he loses on ChristmasJeez Tim Burton...WTF ?
>>152923708I like Batman Returns but I really wish they kept Billy Dee as Dent.The Walken character would have worked better as Harvey. >Harvey thinks the mayor is too soft on Batman>uses Penguin to run for office >Catwoman "kisses" him at the end and his face melts off ...setting up part 3.The Max Schrek power plant storyline really didn't seem to go anywhere
>>152923808Was his son the first time people started doing the "Christopher walken" Impression ?
>>152923791>Dad go, save yourself!
>>152926596>never had the penguin do a big song and dance Routine at the iceberg lounge. real waste of Paul William's talent
>>152936238Chip was based
I enjoy the aesthetics.
>>152936238>>152936219His impression is hilarious, and it's not even played for laughs
>>152916063I haven't watched it in like 25 years.
>>152916616>>152916680>>152916698>>152916707his look was based on both Burton's doodles of a creepy child and long cheinney london after midnight
>>152936206>The Max Schrek power plant storyline really didn't seem to go anywhereShrek just wants more power and more money.
>>152936238who never realized this was Zangief from the VanDame SF movie
>>152936840>, and it's not even played for laughsIt probably is but it's just nit dwelt on. Everything about Shreck is meant to show him as a weirdo in a surrealistic way. Having a son named Chip(off the ol' block) who talks just like him is part of that.
>>152934345>>152934468She was originally a stewardress who fell out of a crashing plane and got amnesia, so she developed the Catwoman persona during her fugue state. The movie plays a bit with the origin seen there, combining it with the battered wife retcon of the Earth-Two version and the opening scene of Mindy Newell's Her Sister's Keeper.
>>152927498All of that is false and you know it. You're just a filtered retard who doesn't actually know shit about Batman.
>>15293458316th century. 15th century they were still doing that v-neck gown over a high kirtle thing.
>>152938595I literally watched the fucking movie. Did you?
>>152938993I did. That's why you are a filtered retard. Bruce Timm didn't create Batman, faggot.
>>152938317Cape flicks were much better when they acknowledged their horror influences.
>>152939200Burton's a fucking retard who can't keep his emo bullshit out of his storytelling.
>>152936238Thanks, Zangief
>>152939456I know you are a filtered and illiterate retard, you don't have to keep trying to convince me
>>152916063Michelle Pfeiffer gave me my corruption fetish. This movie is great
Burton understands Batman and his villains on a visual and iconographic level better than Matt Reeves in The Batman. I can look at Penguin and Catwoman in Batman Returns and immediately know who they're supposed to be, whereas Reeves was afraid of making Penguin and Catwoman look like Penguin and Catwoman because "muh realism". Fuck your realism, you dumb bitch. It's Batman.
I heard an interesting theory that this movie is loosely based on Dickens' A Christmas Carol, with Batman playing a Scrooge-esque role and Schrek, Penguin, and Catwoman functioning as the three ghosts. It's an interesting idea.
>>152923808I always thought Blight/Derek Powers in Batman Beyond was basically Schrek if he turned into Dr. Phosphorus.
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>>152933001People were cringe the Adam West Batman is kino
>>152916617go to bed Raj
>>152919287God, the lighting is so much better in old movies
>>152940514I wonder why lighting in new movies changed so much. Is it because its shot on digital ?
I know there's the prevailing notion that the shadow of Adam West Batman hung over these years and was so embarassing and stuff, and I believe that to be true to some extent I guess. But as a 6 or 7 year old at the time, I wore my Batman '66 VHS tape out, and my boomer dad spoke so highly of the show and how much he loved it. So, obviously this is anecdotal, but if kids thought West Batman was fun, and boomers rememeberd it fondly (who where then around 30 years old) who exactly was the demographic who found it all irredeemably cringe? Gen X/teens? It's more of a rhetorical question maybe too. Just saying I don't know that that notion we've taken for gospel is completely accurate.
>>152940877It's mostly for a lack of effort. Several films shot on digital have great cinematography (BR2049 being a prime example) so it definetly can be done.
>>152940877I think The Batman was well lit and photographed, but while the digital thing plays a role, lighting is just often a lost art, an afterthought. Also modern audiences get the slop they deserve, the colorful or fantastic is seen as cringe, and lazy muted realism is what they're conditioned to enjoy or at least accept. "Why would nighttime even be blue? Gaaay. lol it'd just be dark."
>>152940877The digital films of the 00s still looked good, they just got lazier and more complacent because it looks "good enough."
>>152916063>>So much cringe one-linersNo fun allowed.
>>152941837Basically, after the 1989 movie, the old 60s show suddenly became something to be ashamed of for ever liking. I feel like general opinion didn't start turning around again until after The Dark Knight when everybody got burned out on the "Why so serious?" memes.
>>152943381Comic readers were embarrassed of the 60s show from day one. It was campy in the way that Batman comics of the time were not. They briefly synergized to be more like the show, but it didn't last long. People who were fans of the darker bronze age Batman and the even darker and gritter Frank Miller Batman seethed that the popular conception of both the character and comics in general was "Biff! Bam! Pow!"
>>152940877Adding to what people said, some of it might be to try to make CGI look good (usually ends up looking like a videogame), maybe a factor to hide greescreen or whatever. Also, the 00s were OBSESSED with blue/orange for some reason - those two factors make a horrible, horrible combo in Bayformers. And last but not least, maybe it's an obsession with realism or just laziness, like, lots of 90s tv shows and movies had this charming lighting where everything is lit like one of those small live shows, you can tell it's not real life but you just don't care.Oh also, I'm not sure if that's the same in the u.s., but for whatever godforsaken reason, street lighting got worse since the 00s. The 90s had plain white streetlights all over the place, you could see more detail, it even kinda looked safer than now.
>>152940479Noted.
>>152916800That's a great comparison! He really is Moleman. Never thought of it that way.
>>152941883>4K Meme Teal N Orange RegradeYUCK, post the old DVDs or even the old Bluray, by the way, the first DVD releases that wasnt from the mid 2000s had the original color grading and didnt darken the shots of explosions and lighting.
>>152943814it was an easy color palette to implement
>>152919287>The callback to the mistletoe line where they figure out each others secret identity Best scene in the movie
>>152941883>Why would nighttime even be blue? Gaaay. lol it'd just be dark."Black sky at night can still look good if it's lit right. Check out Scarecrows from 1988.
>>152943466> Comic readers were embarrassed of the 60s show from day one. It was campy in the way that Batman comics of the time were not. They briefly synergized to be more like the show, but it didn't last long. People who were fans of the darker bronze age Batman and the even darker and gritter Frank Miller Batman seethed that the popular conception of both the character and comics in general was "Biff! Bam! Pow!"You're full of shit, anon. Batman '66 was the perfect screen adaptation of Silver Age goofy Batman stories. They didn't start becoming dark and gritty until Denny O'Neil in the 1970s, and especially Frank Miller in the 1980s.
>>152947255Yeah that's decent lighting though, looks like it's from a halogen street lamp on a country road or something highlighting the green and tans, showing the subject against background, but i'm talking about the streaming/slop/volume era of the past decade or so where it's just gradations of black and grey and no differentiation btwn background, foreground, depth etc.
>>152931821Anon MCU Tony Stark is nothing like the comics yet created a billion dollar franchise
>>152940514Not just the lighting, the framerate conversion, since the 2000s they switched to shot on video and now it becomes just as jittery and choppy as late 90s / early 00s music video.
>>152947598Yeah, they made him a smarmy asshole, and then the comics followed the MCU
>>152947307I checked out Batman from the beginning of Julie Schartz's editorial reign in 1964 with the New Look, hence why I talked about the brief period of time when the comic became more like the show for synergy. It was not like the show before then. They even published letters from readers who complained how they didn't want the comic to be like the show, some of which you can read here.Christopher Priest, who would have been 5-7 when the show was first airing on tv has also written about how it wasn't like the comics https://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/chips3.html>It took me years to figure out the old Batman TV show was supposed to be goofy. That the pure, manic campiness of the show was its best asset. I just thought the TV folk were refusing to read the BATMAN comics, which read nothing at all like the show.
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>>152940877The fix-it in post mentality. They don't lock in on the final look of the scene so they shoot everything like it's a cloudy day to more easily match the post-production effects.
I honestly have to wonder why Burton didn't put Penguin in Max Shreck's role and have Killer Croc be the sewer-dwelling freak.
>>152924453>Wesley Strick, was brought on by Warners, to, in Denise Di Novi's words, 'normalise the movie a little bit.'Lol this movie rocks
>>152947307They were corny in so much as comic wetting at the time was corny . It wasn’t the self-aware camp of the show. The events in the comic were meant to be serious even if they were goofy
>>152949672He was averse to the idea of touching a comic book, apparently
>>152939611Okay but looking like a character and BEING a character are two different things. Burton fundamentally does not understand either of the villains he brought in.
>>152950884Burton found comic books difficult to read as a child because he couldn't understand the panel order, and I can't blame him there, some of them could get pretty bad. Some were considerate enough to put arrows to tell you which order you were to read. They gave him a copy of The Killing Joke when he was doing Batman and he was able to read it just fine and liked it well enough. He wasn't too attached to being faithful to the letter though, and he couldn't use Croc regardless because WB had a mandate that it had to be Penguin and Catwoman.
>>152938478WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS?
>>152950906All these characters have been and continue to be open to radical interpretations. Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Penguin and Catwoman were very different already.
>>152926579I'm glad Kevin got to play Bats live once before he died.
>>152916768Eddie Valiant sneaking in with the waiters
>>152950928>WB had a mandate that it had to be Penguin and Catwoman.Of course they did. Them and Riddler are pretty much vying for second-place in the Rogues' Gallery since Joker always takes 1st.
>>152916063Batman is barely in this movie and doesn't even feel like the protagonist.
>>152931821you have a dumb, obnoxious sense of interesting
>>152950906You didn't create these characters nor you actually understand them or their comic history.
>>152950884You are averse to the idea of touching a comic book made before 1986, for some reason
>>152951427Filtered. Go watch Quantumania
>>152940877It is very hard to find Fresnel lenses that fit over LEDs. Execs have also gotten a lot more hands on, despite more of them having no background in anything creative.
>>152950906It’s okay to change something as long as what you make is still good and interesting, Batman reruns is arguably the most visually interesting superhero movie and its story is a fun combination of Christmas movie, urban fantasy, and horror. The movie holds up, unlike so many others.
>>152939522Oh fuck that is him. Never realized.
>>152927498I rewatched them both this year and I realize I hate 1989 too. Its likena bizarre romantic comedy with Vicky Vale , Keaton and Vicky's simp. Keaton doesn't make a good Bruce Wayns. He wants to settle down the entire movie which is fucking bizarre for a first movie. Alfrwd wants him to fuck Vicky so hard he left her in the Batcave. I just really do not like Vicky Vale at all. And the action was gimped due to the rubber suit. The only good things was the Joker. But then they had to throw in the twist that he killed Batman's parents. And the tone/atmosphere/setting/designs. I guess you had to be there but I dont get it at all.
>>152952798That's what happens when you are retarded and larp too hard at being a Batman fan when you actually hate everything about the character.
>>152952798>wants to settle down the entire movie which is fucking bizarre for a first movie.He doesn't want to settle down, Alfred is pushing him to get serious with Vicki, which kind of makes sense because Alfred wants normalcy for Bruce, maybe he hasn't grasped yet that a normal life is no longer in the cards for Bruce yet at this point, he seems more resigned to Bruce being Batman by Returns.
>>152921636Batman '89 was filmed with half a script. Because of the WGA strike of 1988, Sam Hamm couldn't finish the shooting script, so the second half of Batman was basically cobbled together from finished storyboards of key scenes and Keaton, Nicholson and Burton figuring out ad-libbed dialogue. This is very apparent in the scene at Vicki's apartment, there was practically no script for anything after Batman gives Vicki the chemical solution to Joker's SmyleX. There's an anecdote that when they were filming the climax with Joker and Vicki climbing up the cathedral, an exhausted Jack turned to Burton and said "Tim, why are we climbing up this thing?" To which Burton replied equally as exhausted "I don't know Jack, we'll figure it out when you get to the top."
>>152953038The WGA strike of 1988 also affected Robocop 2, which is why Ed Neumeier and Michael Miner never finished their proper sequel treatment for Robocop 2, and Frank Miller was brought in as a scab during the strike to write the filmed script, which is also probably what killed Miller's burgeoning Hollywood career early on. Robert Rodriguez had to resign from the DGA for a while due to Miller's involvement with the Sin City film.
>>152947203>There’s a storm coming, Mr. Wayne. You and your friends better batten down the hatches, because when it hits, you’re all gonna wonder how you ever thought you could live so large and leave so little for the rest of us.
I wish she put my "birdie" in her mouth...
Pffeifer probably gave the whole generation a latex fetish
>>152955173Best Catwoman
>>152955173>>152955164shes still sexy desu
>>152953038Steve Englehart also claims that everything good about the first one came from him.https://www.steveenglehart.com/Film/Batman%20movie.html>Ten years after I wrote the "definitive Batman" for DETECTIVE COMICS, I got a call from DC Comics publisher Jenette Kahn. It seems that when those DETECTIVEs appeared, Mike Uslan, producer of the Swamp Thing film, told an interviewer they showed him, for the first time, how to do a Batman film for adults. (The Adam West "Holy Pow!" Batman was still the dominant image for the general public.)>In the ten years since, he had tried, first as an independent and later in association with Warner Brothers, to translate my story into a single film. A series of scripts involving Silver St. Cloud, Boss Thorne, and a truly insane Joker had been generated by Hollywood’s finest writers, but somehow they weren’t working. So now I was asked to return to the Batman.>When I got involved I was told that the Joker and the Penguin and Robin were all going to be in the picture. I argued that that was several characters too many, but was overruled, so my first treatment went that route. The Powers That Be not only liked it, but for the first time saw the Batman "picture" clearly enough to realize that two villains and a boy wonder were masking (so to speak) the Batman story, which is what it should be all about. So I got to do the second treatment with just the characters that eventually hit the screen: Bruce Wayne, the Batman, Silver St. Cloud, Boss Thorne, and the Joker.>When I was done we had all the elements in the right places, and most importantly, we had Batman's ambiance, the thing no one else could do. So screenwriter Sam Hamm and director Tim Burton took over, and three years later - after Silver and Boss Thorne had their names changed for various reasons - the one Batman movie everyone liked hit the screen. If I'd had any sense I'd have continued working in Hollywood then, but I was enjoying comics and games.
Batman ruled! Batman Returns ruled!
Will we ever get a blue/grey/yellow Batman costume in a film?
>>152956887I wouldn't work as a serious look.
>>152916063Always felt like Burton Joker and Penguin were reversed.Joker is the mafia don guy with organized goonsPenguin is the wacky freak with circus themed minions that make weapons out of clown props and makes overly elaborate plans
>>152916616>>152916680>>152916800Burton was not the first to try to make something more out of Penguin. It never really works, but writers were never satisfied with a short fat guy in a tuxedo. Sometimes he is a bird themed supervillain, sometimes he is a bird mutant of some kind, they want him to be more of a Spider-Man villain with a solid animal theme to him somewhere. Burton just decided to go with circus freak since he constantly leans on that evil goth circus thing a lot over the years. when he was always a Dick Tracey mafia guy with a funny nickname based on how weird he looks.
>>152921636Both movies slow down hard in the middle. It's kind of a weakness for Butron that his movies start out strong, then they meander around with lots of meaningless scenes that add nothing and makes the movie feel longer than it does with loads of crap where characters barely do anything at all but sit around. Then it goes to a wacky over the top third act which is sometimes good, sometimes too weird to accept.
>>152957290Never thought of it that way but good point. That Joker logo you barely see in the first film, on the goons' patches is one of the coolest bits and hints at such a world where he does have extensive themed weapons, vehicles and gear.
>>152956887I'd be concerned for the same reasons I like the blue and grey for urban camo, I worry about losing track of him compared to the black and him always being a darker silhouette than everything else.
>>152957379Yeah, I've felt the same about Beetlejuice too. Opening third or so setting up the setting, the Maitlands, the Deetz's, showing the workings of the afterlife, all really interesting and askew, and feels like an actual film. And like the Joker, Beetlejuice shows up and it's just the Michael Keaton show. There's still great scenes in the second act like the Belafonte bit obviously, but when it trades the interesting larger world of the afterlife and smaller world of the Maitlands vs Deetz' for just "Beetlejuice is a bad and wacky guy!" it becomes much slighter and less interesting.
>>152931821In another world Burton's want for weird goth shit was curbed some and we got a more workable Mafia don Penguin who was some rival to Joker that now filled the power vacuum left after the first movie had Joker killed, Boss Grissom killed, and most of the leadership of Gotham's crime families dead. A traveling circus in town is actually a front he uses to launder money, kill people and hide bodies, and all around hides their criminal behavior behind circus antics on the street.While Catwoman was an expensive expert thief billionaires hire to steal impossible shit and commit industrial sabotage against each other. Max Schrek was a corrupt CEO also trying to screw over his rivals, hired Catwoman to steal incriminating evidence and ruin anyone else running for Mayor of Gotham. Batman runs into her breaking into some other company in Gotham stealing their tax evasion info, which also falsely implicates Bruce too since he owns stock in that company.
>>152941837>>152943381That's also a large part of 80s-90s culture at the time. anything light hearted and fun was considered lame, gay kiddie bullshit that people were ashamed to have anyone know they like. The name Disney was used as an insult for sickeningly sweet family friendly crap no one actually liked.
>>152957642Booooooo
>>152916063It's a comic book movie. Don't over think it.
>>152952798Vicky was an audience surrogate that moves into town and is introduced to everything weird happening in Gotham and learns along with the audience what is going on in this setting. It's dumb in the 2020s when everyone knows everything about Batman. But in 89 when there have not been 11 Batman movies, people did not know a whole lot about the character or his deal at all. Just vague memories of Batman being some wacky near comedy type of thing from the 60s.
>>152955173Wasn't the character costume design modeled after this for years? Before she always had a purple dress kind of deal, sometimes with a cape.
>>152956640Wasn't it the 89 Batman movie that had people realizing robin kind of sucked and Batman works without him well enough?
>>152957729Why care about anything? If you have even a shred of curiosity, it's a fascinating snapshot of the bizarre drama of hollywood production of an iconic pop-culture concept. The infinite fractal logic of the real world is that everything is simultaneously an insignificant ephemeral element and also a microcosm of mankind.Or just a dumb old movie, ho hum.
>>152957642Boring.Thank God you don't write movies, you'll ruin them by trying to be like some fanfic you have in your mind based on some surface level acknowledgement of characters you didn't create nor you actually know about.
>>152957781Well purple Balant Catwoman with exposed hair was the look through the 90s right? You can probably make the case it inspired TAS look and definitely TNA.
>>152957290You didn't create these characters.>>152957400You must be myopic.
>>152957781Newmar changed the dress.
>>152957888It's cute you think you're being smarmy here, get it all out anon.
>>152957781while you barely see it in Batman Year One, it did establish a new, grey skin tight catwoman costume with the cowl. This would be her post-crisis look and she'd wear it in things like the 80's Grant/Breyfogle run until her solo series launched with the purple costume, which basically have her classic cowl instead of the big ears, and exposed hair.
>>152957781>>152957854Frank Miller's Catwoman came first, Burton added stitches to make her look like a Frankenstein'd zombie. Then Balent did his purple suit with black leggings redesign.
>>152957843That would be the definition of overthinking it, yes.99% of people are not at all interested or even notice the elements that make for real world analogues, the discourse of organization vs chaos, or callbacks to Greek tragedies, that's entirely film school bullshit. People are interested in cool action scenes, romance, stunts, cool cars, and fun costumes. And they are not even interested if they make much sense in the context of the narrative, or even fit together in the story at all. hey just like the cool costumes on hot actors who make cool stunts. Existentialism and Sisyphian struggles with dramatic tones that hearken back to 19th century poetry is only crap critics, writers and any other drama club nerd would ever notice at all.
>>152957853>based on some surface level acknowledgement of characters you didn't create nor you actually know about....this in defense of Batman Returns. You are either a fucking retard or a contrarian fucking retard.
>>152957853Also the rest of the Warner executives, along with all critics, and most viewers hated it enough to have Burton dropped and replaced by the guy who was mostly known for having fucked more than 10K guys in his lifetime to make a toy commercial.
>>152957903It's cute you think I'm being smarmy here, when that describes you better with that poor response. Bitch all you want, anon.
>>152957983Lost Boys was a pretty fun film, even if its depiction of comic book fandom is so mindboggingly wrong that I can't stand it. Falling Down was also great. He was a fine director, the problem was with the executive demand that he make campy films like the 60s Batman show and then letting him go off the rails so much with Batman and Robin that it took them seven years to figure out how to make another one.
>>152957947No, you're a fucking retard and a contrarian fucking retard rolled in one. Your Nolan/Reeves level dull retardation simply sucks and ignores character work. Let's see if you bitch this way about Dini and Timm giving Mr. Freeze a frozen wife.
>>152957983Sucking Warner Brothers and its executives' old hairy balls and lying about audiences you weren't even part of. You've reached a never seen before level of faggotry and bootlicking.
>>152957803Most still only thought of Robin as Burt Ward's "Golly gee whiz! Holy whatever, Batman!" portrayal. Even Timm and Dini shoved Robin off to college and only rarely had him pop up (at least at first) to try and get away from that.
>>152953038https://youtu.be/ISGe670OTOcApparently the WGA strike had the knock-on effect of fucking up the old-school studio movie producers and eventually gave more industry power to agents to shop around spec scripts.
>>152958340Robin's existence really kills the tone. A brightly colored kid in a yellow cape and elf shoes is fucking strange right next to the whole brooding dark knight thing.
>>152957930Whatever, lowbrow cretin. What a myopic and dismissive point of view on filmmaking.
>>152958067Keep going!
>>152957853to be clear, you are talking about Batman Returns. the movie where No. One. has any kind of basis in anything remotely comic related whatsoever, and some anon is bad for coming up with OC versions of villains while Bat,man Returns is some bastion of perfect 1:1 adaptations in Hollywood.is this you first time having an opinion or are you 12?
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>>152958472Faggot.
>>152958506Except they do, you just didn't read those comics that you larp so much as knowing about when you actually dont. know. shit. about them. That anon is bad for bitching at these takes and coming with worse and duller ones that must have been shat by Matt Reeves or Chris Nolan in an uninspired day. Cute strawman, but please take your meds for your own sake.
>>152958586Couldn't he just buy a keurig or something? It probably costs the same as those.
>>152958729Looks like someone got themself a little triggered there. It's okay buddy, all your little friends are still there on the tv like they always have been.
>>152958506Anon is trolling. It's spring break and the kiddies are out of school and making weird posts about speedreading and shit anon. He has no idea what the fuck he is talking about and probably never watched any 90s Batman movie.
This thread really recreates the feel of being at the comic book store overhearing some demented argument with the king of nerds.
>>152958771Looks like someone got himself a little projected here, as that poor attempt at a witty comeback looks very specific.Take your meds, schizo your buddy isn't here.
>>152958340Robin was off in college in BTAS because that was the status quo in the bronze age comics they grew up with and were modernizing.
>>152958791No, but you are coping, anon. Like I told you before you little schizo: stop projecting your mental illness and inability to watch movies and actually read comics on others, and get psychological and psychiatric help for your sake.
>>152916063>Why is Max trying to get Penguin elected Mayor in Dec when elections are in NovBecause there was an episode of the Adam West Batman TV series called "Hizzhoner the Mayor/Dizzhoner the Mayor" where Penguin ran for Mayor.
>>152916063None of the burton movies make sense on a macro level but they're all of a consistent vibe and style that makes the whole thing feel... coherent. All of those things don't really add up or make sense but the whole package sells itself to you enough that you don't care.
>>152959127Why wasn't the movie about operating a restaurant to gather handwriting samples for check fraud? I like that one.
>>152957674>The name Disney was used as an insult for sickeningly sweet family friendly crap no one actually liked.I mean...
>>152952537>You didn't create these characters nor you actually understand them or their comic history.>>152957853>characters you didn't create nor you actually know about.>>152957888>You didn't create these characters.What kind of niggerass argument is this supposed to be?
The most civilized thread, 3 days running, derailed by one motivated anon?
>>152959948What kind of niggerass bitching is this? You didn't do shit, who are you to order or have the last say over how 90 year old fictional characters should be, based ON your very superficial "knowledge" of them?
>>152959888>>152957674I remember thinking of the movies as gay princess shit until my cousin got me to watch Beauty And The Beast because he watched it and it was fun. The Disney Renaissance did wonders for the brand.
>>152961568>I, on the other hand, did in fact create the Penguin and Catwoman so none of you can disagree with me!Kys autist
>>152962983I, on the other hand, didn't say that you little retard, but if that's what makes you cope enough to not kys then keep it up!
