>Micheliene wrote almost 100 issues>Mackie wrote 100 issues of spiderman between all the ongoing>SlottWe know Spiderman has been a disaster long before the retard Quesada.Which was the year all start to downhill? Stern leaving or Defalco vs Priest feud?
>>153200097Since the Beginning, all the best Spider-Man stories are one offs most the time, on going stuff for him tends to suck.
>>153200097>been a disaster long before the retard QuesadaNothing tops the disaster that was OMD. Even Sins Past didn't ruin sales and status quo that badly. Spider-Man has had bad stories before that but nothing comes close.
>>153200193Spider-Man still sells well enough for them not never do anything about the bad runs, at least even Batman fans stop reading in the 2000's before Hush when it got bad but Spider-Man fans will always read Spider-Man no matter what.
Priest fucking up DeFalco's stories was a small misstep, but things went right back on track in the Salicrup era with Kraven's Last Hunt and the Michelinie and Conway runs. Fingeroth made some bad calls, particularly near the end, but he gave us JMD's Spectacular run. Maximum Carnage, which started after The Best of Enemies is the clear dividing "Spider-Man is going to be worse from here on out" line. The clone saga was only a symptom of the problems in the 90s with their greater focus on crossover events and ill-fitting attempts to be more appealing to younger readers.
>>153200220Batman stories got a lot worse after Hush. Rucka/Brubaker/Grayson Batman wasn't bad, it just wasn't dumb and loud enough for the average comic buyer. Loeb and Snyder gave people the dumb, loud stories they wanted. Morrison was a middle-ground by being smarter and loud so his sales were in-between.
>>153200193No, Clone saga finale was worse.May coming back made the excuse for OMD later(just look at Zatanna, Zatara has been long dead, hell even Tim Drake father has been dead more than alive).And Norman coming back put the rogue gallery in a Joker situation that every writer want to use him even though Green Goblin barely has good stories.
>>153200287>Rucka/Brubaker/Grayson Batman wasn't badNot only were they bad, but they're all worse than Snyder. And Morrison was post Hush.
>>153200287>Rucka/BrubakerI know Gotham Central has fans because is a great comic, but come on, Rucka wrote a shitty batman, and Brubaker need years till started to write good stories in detective comics.Fugitive was Tom King level of hackery too.
>>153200220Spider-Man used to juggle multiple ongoings that topped the charts and ASM was a sales juggernaut. Now only ASM sells well but it's nowhere near as much.>>153200396Clone Saga just undid itself and Spider-Man recovered from that. OMD undid decades of continuity and Spider-Man has yet to recover. The dip in sales after OMD was massive.
>>153200287Post-Oneil Batman was directionless and Schreck absolutely fucked up with War Games. Tomasi and later Marts had to rebuild the line with Morrison/Dini on Batman/Detective and plugging in as many crossovers as possible.
>>153200492Both undid a Green Goblin dead, but at least Harry got retconed as never resurrected while we still has Norman boring fights instead of focusing on other rogues.And no, Dark reigns was not good
>>153200097Bringing back the parents was a bridge too far, the Hobgoblin clusterfuck was the final nail in the coffin, the Clone saga was the point of no return.
>>153200533>Tomasi and later Marts had to rebuild the line with Morrison/Dini on Batman/Detective and plugging in as many crossovers as possibleGoing on topic, we need a Tomasi/Marts as a editor.Wackers was good (he edit 52) but directionless , and after +12 years of Lowe we need a competent editor.
straczynski had some of the highest highs, but damn his lows had consequences that have lasted decades, and have completely overwritten his highsAbout halfway through his run He seemed to want to sabotage his own work so we got evil Ezekiel cheating where gwen and one more day
>>153200414>Not only were they bad, but they're all worse than Snyder.If you like dumb stories with supervillains, sure.>And Morrison was post Hush.I know, it was a blip of better quality between Rucka/Brubaker and Snyder.>>153200462They did some things I didn't like, but they were overall fine. The only problem with Fugitive was the forced drama to keep the story going longer than it should have.
>>153201314JMS's writing is always a coin flip you never know if your gonna get Kino or Cringe. I do blame him for setting up the tee for Proto-Reddit Peter that Slott would take the ball and run with.
>>153201314>straczynski had some of the highest highsNo.
>>153201365>If you like dumb stories with supervillainsThat's 99.5% of all capeshit.
>>153200679I actually learned to appreciate the parents storyline, particularly the aftermath where he goes fucking apeshit at the Chameleon. It's also my stopping point for ASM though.
>>153200097>SpidermanIt's spelled Spider-Man, with a hyphen. He's not Rabbi Spiderman.
>>153202047>He's not Rabbi Spiderman.You sure about that?
>>153200097>waaahhh waaahhhh Spide-man has actually sucked for decades instead of the arbitrary lower year number people usually use when complaining
>>153202132It's really funny when people get mad at Quesada and Alonso for "ruining" Spider-Man when the particular run they hold up as the last great one started when Quesada took over as EiC and headhunted Alonso from Vertigo to put him in charge of the spider-line.
>>153200097>Which was the year all start to downhill? Stern leaving or Defalco vs Priest feud?People will say 1990-92. Or during the Clone Saga. But I wouldn't call it unbearable. Other characters had dumb stories as well. And he still had some good issues back then. The real downhill occurred in 1998. Mackie and Byrne. And Straczynski is overrated
Tale end of 1994 when they introduced the clone stuff. ASM 393 is a nice enough stopping point if you don't mind a downer ending.
>>153200097Michelinie was mostly fine until Larsen left and he took a break. Once he comes back after the Round Robin crossover, te quality plummets because you get the fake Richard and Mary Parkers showing up, Carnage and all that stupid shit. But it's hard to know how much of that is him and how much of that is stupid editorial ideas he was having to write but basically nothing after the Tri-Sentinel story with Nova is worth reading.
>>153200256>Maximum Carnage, which started after The Best of Enemies is the clear dividing "Spider-Man is going to be worse from here on out" lineAgain, I think it goes earlier than that to Round Robin. Richard, Mary and Carnage showing up is the point where Spider-Man goes into a nosedive and that's about a year before Maximum Carnage. That whole post-Roud Robin to The Spider era is fucking dogshit. Then it picks back up for the early parts of the Clone Saga and ASM #400 before falling off a cliff again and it never really recovers. Mackie's run follows the Clone Saga, I don't like the JMS run and then it's BND/Slott. It's not until Spencer's run where Spider-Man starts feeling like Spider-Man again (or at least close to early Michelinie) but we all know how that got ruined.
>>153200133First post worst post
>>153201618He did a great job making it feel like spiderman lives in a living super hero community. Spiderman has a magic problem that's out of his league? He calls up strange.He has a free Saturday? He plays poker with the ff. Happy birthday is the best spider man story of all time, and pic related is the best page.Highest highs
>>153200097I liked part of the JMS run and there's some things by Zdarsky and Spencer I liked, but if I were told that I could remove everything from Gathering Of Five onwards, from 616, and place it in its own Earth, I'd do it.
Kraven's Last Hunt was the end of the golden era but it's still a lot of fun up to issue 350. It dips after that, but I do like the brief run before, during and after Pursuit.
>>153202372Mackie and Byrne are when it was definitively over. I'd say the slide started with the conclusion to the Hobgoblin saga but the book was still mostly good up until the Clone Saga
>>153202730Amazing had its highs and lows, but that didn't effect what was happening in Spectacular too much, which was great.
>>153202132OMD is just the point of the 90s generation of readers, people has been arguing about the editorial trying to ruin spiderman since Priest/Shooter fucking the authors
>>153202951Specifically, this is the point I stop at.
>>153200097It's hard to pin because until OMD nothing felt permanent or so ridiculous that you be better just to burn the whole thing down. I would say however the road leading to OMD started with Howard Mackie's "New Beginnings" as it was broadcasting very painfully that something was still "wrong" with Parker as a character and the long trail of everyone trying reset him started. After the Clone Saga we should have seen them thrown in the towel and just tell good stories and not being so hung up Pete had a wife.Now typing that all out what ruin everything Spider-man was Jim Shooter and David Michelinie fucking panicking over the nothing burger of Stan Lee doing a marriage strip about Peter and MJ. If they just kept cooler heads and just did their own thing no of the editorial nightmares of the 90s would have ever fucking happen.
>>153202977
>>153203411It was just Shooter. Michelnie was slated to be the new regular Amazing writer before the marriage plans went into motion and he was nervous about it because he wasn't even married and unsure if he could write it convincingly.
>>153200097Clone Saga. Clone saga was their first attempt at removing and replacing Peter. They realized after the marriage that they didn't like the direction the character was going but they didn't really have any viable alternative besides kill and replace. This has remained true ever since. They put the character onto this path of aging that they didn't want and don't know how to write but the only other option is badly repeating old stories that don't work with the older Peter and weight of history on him, empty gimmick stories, and imitations/clone characters like Miles and the multiverse stuff. It's been 30+ years of that. OMD killed him forever but it began before that, think of the Clone Saga like HIV and OMD as AIDS. Both spring from a desire to undo decades of development and return the character to a past state forever.
>>153203737I dunno about you guys but I respect Micheleine's work (I dunno much about his personality or personal life, so I don't know his character) regarding this fact and how most of his writing decisions across different characters were more ambitious and adventurous with how he treated characters. Sure, Aquaman's kid dying is a bit too dark for that character but at least it wasn't rape or other shit. I could see that being a typical plot but the doozy is the kid actually dying. Anyway, I guess I'm in a clone saga/JMS-run hater thread. I agree they have problems with both being mainly maligned due to editorial problems. However when it comes to as this anon >>153201612 says, I guess I could tolerate that type of comedy and dialogue because it wasn't as annoying as Aaron Sorkin or Dan Slott is. There are some actual jokes that land for me with Peter still retaining his dignity and attitude he had from the Ditko era. That alleviates those other moments where he like goes around talking about pockets out loud or "witty" banter that he has. Like >>153202894 here, Peter saying "freaking great" comes off as Reddit, but I think that is just JMS wanting to swear but he can't. Maybe he could rewrite a different way but I dunno, I'm willing to look past it.
>>153203737Shooter did a lot of good but holy shit that was a major miss fire.
>>153204672>miss fire>bad take or unclear if about the fact the marriage was bad because it was rushed or the marriage in general was badESL-detected
>>153204672The marriage was popular and it was something the fans wanted. It's only a misfre because a lot of creators don't want it because it prevented them from doing cheap romance drama with revolving love interests.
>>153204142>They put the character onto this path of aging that they didn't want and don't know how to writeMarvel has been so dumb, god. The way the marriage ocurred and developed have a mixed reception. But MJ and Peter definitely had to marry eventually. It's part of what made Spider-Man a good comic, character development. Aging shouldn't be a weakness, quite the opposite. They're obsessed with trying to give him an eternal status quo. It doesnt works for Peter. And it's the reason why>>153200133 is so wrong. Literally the opposite is true. He doesn't have many good one offs stories, because you need the context. I can't reccomend Spider-Man no more, if this be my destiny, and the night Gwen Stacy died to anyone. They won't know who Foswell is, or remember the issue George Stacy died, or realize why May's terminal illness is ironical. The ongoings were good, arcs and runs, because they were focused on development. A status quo works for characters like Batman, Superman, and most superheroes. People unfamiliar with Batman can enjoy The Dark Knight, you don't need a lot of context. Marvel doesn’t understands that Peter isn't that kind of character. FFS, he graduated from high school in 1965. They also forgot that Spider-Man is a street level character, so he should only have city stories
>>153200097There are ups and downs in the 70s, 80s and 90s, but generally the good outweighs the bad. Even the Clone Saga has good moments, and despite the years afterwards ranging from directionless to outright bad around the 1998 relaunches, things do eventually pick up with JMS and Jenkins in the 2000s. OMD was the point of no return, any previous bad or controversial story you can point to the books recovered from, or it didn't really do that much damage in the first place.The idea that there's some massive drop-off in quality from Stern to DeFalco just never seemed true, btw. Always seemed more like it's just so very many of the oldfags started reading with Stern, so any change of writer would be Not Muh.>>153200193>Even Sins Past didn't ruin sales and status quo that badly.Despite the years and years of waifufag seething, it didn't hurt sales or the status quo AT ALL.
Bro you're allowed to actually space your paragraphs. That shit exists for a reason, don't listen to fags who cry about "reddit spacing".
>>153205058There is no tipping point that early. Again, the tipping point is during Michelinie's and specifically once Richard and Mary Paker and Carnage are introduced right after Larsen leaves. Before that the only outright bad run is O'Neil's and I don't really care for Wolfma's run either. But those aren't as bad as the last two or three years of Michelinie and pretty much everything else that came after that.
>>153200097Technically it would be shooter forcing the symbiot, but practically yeah the problems with the character writing wise land on Priest being confrontational as an editor and running Defalco out. I still like the guy and like some of the work he did on the character, but literally writing so Wolverine vs spider-man JUST to fuck over Defalcos ending with hobgoblin was a next level fuck you. And that’s not even talking about how stupid it was to not know who Stern was initially going to reveal Hobgoblin to be
>>153205212>And that’s not even talking about how stupid it was to not know who Stern was initially going to reveal Hobgoblin to beBlame DeFalco. He got Stern's blessing to change it and was going to make it Richard Fisk, then told Priest it was going to be Ned simply to throw him off because he didn't want Priest ruining his story. Then he got removed and Pries did the whole thing operating under the false info he was given.At least Priest owns up to being a giant dickhead back then who should have never been in that position though.
>>153205132Even if you don't care for the last few years of Michelinie's run, JMD's Spec is going on at the same time, so the idea that we'd reached some kind of Spider-Man tipping point where nothing would ever be good again in the early 90s just doesn't hold up.>>153205212The Hobgoblin mystery basically ended being a shaggy dog story, going on and on for years and ending in a mess, while the book changed writer several times, all of them had their own idea for who it should be, and none of them were particularly good ideas. It left a horrible legacy that previous mystery villains like Green Goblin and Jackal hadn't, in terms of so many later writers feeling like they needed to build their run around a mystery villain, and almost all of those mysteries sucked and ran on too long too, but no, the Hobgoblin mystery playing out the way it did had no real impact on the quality of Spider-Man comics afterwards, it's just one story that ran on too long and ended up not being good.
>>153203089Bagley used to be so good.
>>153203089The art here is so fantastic
>>153206669>>153206749IMO Bagley was helped a lot by Randy Emberlin's inking and his stuff, including Ultimate Spider-Man, never looked anywhere near as good under other inkers.
>>153204755I've heard some Marvel editors or admin or whatever refer to Spider-man as a character about perpetual adolescence and it couldn't be more wrong. That's like Archie or some shit. Spider-man is a story about growing up, it's a coming of age story but they really don't want him to come of age ever. Unfortunately he kinda already did and the post-OMD era is just desperately trying to pretend that didn't happen or roll it back.
>>153204755>But MJ and Peter definitely had to marry eventually.She hadn't even appeared in any comics for five years when Stern brought her back to spoil Peter's relationship with Amy Powell. They had moved on. It was his intention to have her eventually skip out again, serving as the equivalent of Lucy with the football to make sure Peter was always single.
>>153206669It's crazy that bagley used to pencil 2 books a month for years when it seems like most artists can't handle 5 books a year
>>153207668And no interesting relationships occurred in those years at all. It's funny how often writers tried to sabotage this character and relationship only to make it more popular and more of a good fit. Eventually they cracked the code in the 2010s-2020s by just making her intensely unlikable constantly.
>>153207668Wolfman broke up Peter and MJ in a way that made her look really bad and wrote her out of the book out of nothing more than his own Not Muh about them getting together in the first place, and it's that following period of Spider-Man where there's a rotating cast of rando OCs as new love interests that are never more than short term that's become what Marvel editorial wants for the character forever, with Stern's idea to just keep blueballing the readers with the idea of Peter/MJ but eternally denying them just seems like the exact kind of dick move Marvel would later embrace and try to push as the permanent status quo. And just like back then, we have Black Cat being presented as an alternative that is usually made to look like it has no long-term future, and there's no reason at all for anyone to get invested in any of the other OC love interests, we know they aren't lasting.1970s Spider-Man set up that Peter/MJ was the endgame, most adaptations use it, so it's what normies know and expect, but Marvel have been trying to sabotage or block it for decades, some of them because they think it should have been Gwen, some of them because they're locked into this view of Spider-Man being an eternal adolescent who can never grow up.
>>153202112
>>153200256> Maximum CarnageMy headcanon is that Maximun Carnage is the end of the 60s spidey, its he last adventure facing a evil villain, Norman and Harry are dead, Peter is married and after that Venom becomes a hero and Peter retires
>>153200097>We know Spiderman has been a disaster long before the retard QuesadaYou can probably still sell the concept of some shitty stoylines to people (hell, they revisted Morlun for fuck's sake), but OMD is so retardedly godawaful that people refuse to accept its' existance when you tell them about it. They think you're making shit up when you say that Peter sold his marriage to notSatan because Aunt May was shot by a bullet that medical science, Reed's SCIENCE, nanobots, healing mutants, magic, reality warpers, etc. all couldn't fix.
>>153208036Peter helping Betty cheat was funny, Black Cat unarguably had staying power. Deb Whitman was also amusingly dysfuctional, helped that she was brought into the 90s cartoon, though only as a friendly rival and not a love interest.>>153208122Conway got Peter and MJ together and then immediately left. Wein kept him together for the entire duration of his three year run, but it didn't come across to me like they were intended to be a forever couple who could never split up. They had their share of arguments and problems. Then Wolfman came onboard and sent her packing immediately.
>>153208959Black Cat has staying power but I don't think anyone expect her to be anything beyond a superpowered fling, she's not an endgame option like Gwen or MJ were.
>>153209625Gwen is just the dead backstory girl so our hero can be broody.
>>153208959>Conway got Peter and MJ together and then immediately left.Only because he ragequit over Wein and Wolfman getting promoted to EiC when Thomas stepped down since he felt like it should have been him. IIRC someone basically told Thomas that nobody liked Gery and it'd be a shitshow if he got the job.
>>153209625>>153209659Mary Jane was always the endgame
>>153204737The marriage should have been a slow Burn just look at the others characters Clark and Lois and Wally and Linda.If It happened in late Micheliene run instead some of those shitty arcs I think the product would have improved.
>>153205058>Despite the years and years of waifufag seethingAnon, people say this because fucking JMS brag about sales being shit in BND even though they were releasing TAS thrice per month(something they still do).Anyway, I think the worst think about OMD was losing a long running second book, even Chip Spectacular Survive that much. Is sad because Superman right now has THREE books but Peter can't have a second one.
>>153200396May died during the Clone Saga dummy, she was brought back by Byrne well after it ended
>>153200193Sins Past wouldn't have been nearly as bad if Marvel let JMS go with his original plan
>>153209979>Mogging every other girls since the Dikto days
>>153208176Kek. Bendis be jewish, Stan Lee says Peter has no specific religion so that nobody is left out, and then Bendis decides since this is his Peter and he doesn't want self-insert allegations, he does this. I assume that was his thought process.>>153208959Deb does seem like another side character that needs more attention. Her, Randi, Candi, and Bambi, Nathan, Jean DeWolff, Kristy, Ben Urich, Glory, etc. all need some screen time as well. Also if there is ever a Clone Saga adaptation or one that takes place after it and has flashbacks to key moments, hinting at Peter and Ben's for lack of a better term, trauma, that would also open the door for their supporting casts to interact with Peter's supporting cast more. >>153209888I don't really know much about Gerry. Who did like him? And was he like an arrogant kid when he was working there? I could see him getting arrogant after Gwen's death as that story is kino for a 19-year old. >>153208959Well you're leaving out the kiss, ASM 150, and other stuff either by Conway or not where these moments are contrary to what you say and are generally written pretty well and stick out. Plus if you're a vietnam guy or a guy living in the turbulent 70's as a kid or adult, do you want to constantly see a Peter in the dumps like a whiny bitch? The same is true now in the turbulent 2020's.
Okay guys, who's the best Spider-Man writer of the last three decades? Remember that ASM isn't the only book
>>153216538one from the 90s. Or PAD from early 2000s.
>>153216538JMD, JMS, Spencer, Sacasa's one shots put him up there, or Jenkins.
>>153213653His original plan of the exact same story but it was Peter who impregnated Gwen instead? It's an awful story either way.
>>153217915Either way it was cheap drama and bad characterization
>>153217915>>153219174I still debate in my head sometimes whether that was an idea editorial wanted and JMS had to take the fall over or he just had a really bad idea. Though some of his later indies are pretty bad so maybe it was a just a sign that he was losing his sharpness when it comes to writing.
>>153216951>SpencerGod no, even Chip is better than Spiderman crying like a bitch because kindred
>>153217915Given that his original plan for his run ended with OMD rewriting history so Harry doesn't OD, setting off a chain of events where Gwen doesn't die, and in the new timeline the twins wouldn't have been born, it's exponentially worse if the run ends with Peter erasing his own children from existence to save his aunt.Things worked out much better with Norman instead of Peter.
>>153216538Either PAD's Friendly Neighborhood or RAS's Sensational.There were some other good runs, but they were more flawed. Everyone knows JMS's problems. Jenkins's Chameleon arc in Webspinners and his Peter Parker run were all right but his Spectacular was awful. Millar's MK run had too many Millarisms in it for me to like it. JMD's second Spectacular run had some pretty good stories in it, but I really hated how he handled Mad Jack, creating a mystery villain without even knowing who the identity would be, teasing meaningless clues about that identity, and then being forced off the title before he could figure out an answer. Just a lousy way to write comics.
