>Indie animation is the futu-Oh
>He does it for moneyAlso >writingq
>>153220998>Love cartoons as a kid>Want to go to art school so I can make cartoons>Dad tells me that's fucking retarded>Major in compsci instead>Do animations on the side as a hobby>Making 125K with remote on Mondays and Fridays>Ample time to work on my projectsIt's good to have non-shitty parents
>>153220998I still don't understand the mindset behind people who thought indie animation could replace thousands of industry jobs. Youtube AdSense pays fuck all and you can't rely on kickstarters forever. So many indie projects have to crowdfund each episode one by one
Said it before and will again. The expectations people have for indie is unsustainable and we will see it implode in the near future. People want>High quality animation>High quality writing>11-30 min runtimes>Released consistently >For free on YouTube>While they shouldn't expect to make a living and just work on the sideThe math simply doesn't support such a system.I'll go further and say that non theatrical animation both industry and indie will just wither and die at the rate things are going. On a large scale that is. Hobbyists will obviously survive
>>153220998>I cant "get a job" at indie studiosDuh. Stop trying to "get a job" in animation and just animate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YklLiolmM_0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kwu6sfuTc
Television, much like movies, are a scam. The suckers being the advertisers, for jnce not the consumer. For 80 years major corporations got tricked into shelling out millions of dollars for minutes of ad time on television shows. That wallet diarrhea is what made television what we think of it today. Big budgets, big pay checks. Everyone got rich. Pepsi and nestle saw a 0% change in their market share. It didn't matter, advertising was a public service. The internet breaks this relationship. Neilson can't trick marketers into thinking 100 million billion people are viewing their commercials. They know for a fact, to the one's place, how many eye balls are on the ad and they're willing to pay fractions of a penny per pair.It would have worked before the first apocalypse. It was working. Then it happened and the scene has never recovered.
>>153220998Out of curiosity, does he live in one of the most expensive cities on Earth with a job he could do from literally anywhere?
>>153220998No studio that gets funding from any government organization should be given the label of indie.
>>153220998>I've written for some of the biggest shows out thereHe wrote songs. He didn't write the story, characters or storyboard. He just helped out with the songs. He's getting into the hype train that Caine's song got and is living based off that fame alone.
>>153221180If the corporations vacate the market it'll cause a rennaissance. They won't though. They will never "die" just become hollow(hollower). The fcc broadcast licenses make them gods among mortals.
>>153221293...ok? Doesn't change the fact what he says is true, Jaxfag.
>>153221293People used to be able to write a few songs for television and be set for life thanks to residuals.
starving artist is one of the oldest stereotypes in the book. how is that a harsh truth when everyone is aware of it?
>>153221268Why companies ditched cable and thought streaming would be huge I'll never know
>>153220998I thought Goose writes TADC alone.>>153221089Serious question, did your parents ever hit you?
>>153220998This is why I don't care about Glitch doing the TADC theater thing Hell, they should be grifting even more. It's a cutthroat market. Once you get lucky you have to milk that bitch for all it's worth>Waahhh I want my studio quality animation for freeSorry dude
>>153220998Media people need to understand that they're all living on borrowed time. The Internet and smartphones obliterated the inherent worth of media. Music, video games, movies, animation, ALL of them are going through the same thing. Newer generations have grown up watching and playing slop for free on the internet. They are never going to actually sustain these industries because they have been conditioned to consume slop and pay next to nothing for media.Why would a gen alpha kid buy a new game when he has Roblox and free slop on YouTube to keep him entertained?
>>153220998Obviously, you gotta be showrunner or lead animator. Something important, writting is for pack mules lol
>>153221297Somehow I doubt people will suddenly start paying for indie animation if that happenedSome people complained about the theatre release of the digital circus final.
>>153221386They're Nigerian GenXers, take a guess lol.
>>153220998Not even kidding when I say that indie creators need to start charging for their shit. I don't mean merch, I mean pay per viewI don't understand why indie game devs get to charge 10-30 bucks yet when an animator wants to it's sacrilege
>>153221455>Implying either are in a much better position aside from viv and goose
>>153221492They can try, but nobody's going to pay unless you're Harry Partridge or psychicpebbles levels of popular.
>>153220998I saw the Thumbnail and wondered why the fuck Dave Chapelle was talking about indy cartoons
>>153221359Because television watching peaked with boomers and has been going down hill since. Dramatically with millennials. Zoomers almost never watch TV. Alphas actually not at all.No one accepts the network execs telling them what to watch and when. No one likes commercials. No one likes the shows that get the time slots.They pivoted to streaming because Netflix was boring all the views. And guess what? Theyre hemorrhaging money because of it just like indie studios are and for the same reason. Without the advertising scam there just isn't enough money. Major television shows had multi million dollar budgets per episode.
>>153221275This has always been baffling to me, there isn't even anything cool to do in Burbank.
>>153221321Maybe if you wrote the Seinfeld or Simpsons theme. Outside of that, absolutely not.
>>153221451I .eab more companies can always say "Please by our merchandise to support the show!" But even then it doesn't sound like consistent paychecks would be a thing. The problem I'd the show has to EXPLODE in popularity for it to make enough money which isn't the easiest thing to do and takes away risks, and freedom of expression in favor of trying to make something safe for everyone. This is why I felt like animation should always be hobbyiests. Thing is Vivzi made everyone want a streaming deal with Amazon so that's the other avenue people are trying for
>>153221536I'd watch an animated Chappelle show
>>153221550All things are temporary, even things that seem like they have been part of the cultural landscape since the dawn of time.It's all going the way of the traveling Circus.
>>153221275California tards would literally rather kill themselves than live anywhere else. They think every other US state is Texas or Mississippi.
>>153221469They wknt start paying for it but the market is what it is right now because tv still exists. Marketers are willing to pay billions a year on advertising. The portion of that money available for entertainment media is mostly still going to tv networks. If they stopped existing that would free up the cash. It would also make them desperate for ad space.But it won't happen because the corpos will never just disappear one day. They'll decline slowly, and as they create scarcity and free up money that money will just go right back into tv.
>>153221631I got out.Turns out you can get decent enough sushi just about anywhere
>>153220998So what should the actual solution be?If animation isn't paying I don't see how we'll keep getting stuff like Glitch and whatnot. 2D animation itself is already dying? Should they just work for free? How do we expect more animated shows to be made?
>>153221682I think most audiences deep down would be fine will 2D cartoons using ai as their primary production at this point
>>153221492Here's THE solution. It'll just take some big players to get the balls rolling.Animators prpduce shows and license them to the major streamers. The streamers play shows so theycan sleep and poop without broadcasting dead air.The streamer pays the studio with his revenue which is already proven.You could have exclusivety deals too. 100 different ways to do this. If it gets traction and there becomes a sizeable library of content it'll snowball.
>>153221492>>153221521Even if they charged a dollar, or 50c or even 30c (for not as popular creators) they'd still be able to make decent money if enough people watched theor stuff
>>153221631Dude you have no idea how great the weather is here.
>>153221492it might be more reasonable to have adverts. every other youtuber is shilling for squarespace
>>153221710This doesn't solve the cost problem lmao>>153221724You're underestimating how much any paywall at all is a viewership deterrent to anything that isn't porn.
>>153221746>DUDE, THINK ABOUT MUH WEATHERGod, you people deserve to get fuck over by your government.
>>153221556Quincy Jones wrote the Sanford & Son theme in 20 minutes (while smoking opium, because that’s what he was doing when Redd Foxx called) and made 2 million dollars a year from the residuals for decades.
>>153221682The actual solution is streamers become the new broadcasters. They have audiences already. The streamer's filled is that they get paid while people watch the stream, but they can't stream their whole lives(some try). They need content to put on the stream so they can live normally without losing half their viewers every minute. Dead air kills viewership. A quick "wait guys lemme take a shit" will kill their day's earnings.This is the way. Idk how to properly advocate for it. I'm not trying to animate a show myself.
>>153221321worth noting streaming is fucking that up, though
>>153221556Every old theme song has bullshit lyrics written by the star and/or producer so they could pocket half the publishing take, that wouldn’t be the case if there wasn’t a significant amount of money to be made
>>153221724Charging >0 will cause a 99% reduction in viewership.
>>153221795Every little diddy earned residuals too. My father in law is one of these people apparently.
>>153221180The indie scene's future is probably going to look like the OVA market of the 80s and 90s, smaller budget productions ranging between tv episode and theatrical film length without a fixed schedule of release. Unfortunately it won't have the rental market that OVA's had to support itself so you're largely going to be looking at crowdfunding and, for the more established studios, merchandising and licensing rights for funding.
>>153221722>sleep and poop without broadcasting dead airI don't watch streams to begin with but are there really people who expect a stream to be up 24/7?
>>153221833Yup. Broadcasters used to pay millions per showing to air syndicated shows. That money filtered back. People were getting paid fortunes for their whole lives for minutes of work.
>>153221748That's why we need to normalize paying with the assumption that this will allow creators to continue making stuff people love. It's the only way, we have to educate people that it's either this or nothing. Because it is. Unless people just want to watch hobbyists supporting themselves working at Wendy's for the end of time. This will in ternchave many effects, this will change it so instead of random viral animated videos (like angry Mario #274658) being watched without care, people will have to get to know artists and follow them and their work more closely and be more choosey with who they watch and pay for.
>if you release something on a streaming service you can make money>if you release it to 200 youtube subcscribers you don'tthats crazy i didnt know that
>>153220998>Songs>The only one that is even in anything other than a pilot is the one vocal song in TADCAnd he is shocked that he isn't rich off of this why? That sounds like simple contract work. You are never going to make a bajillion dollars doing bit work for a small production.
>>153221180>High quality animationi still think TADC could have gotten away with far cheaper production quality, considering it's supposed to look like an early cgi project. like how early Pixar focused on toys and bugs, because their human characters weren't quite there yet.
>>153221884No, but in this case the streamer provides anchor content while the licensed content allows for viewership retention outside the streams. Anon's idea is wildly optimistic, but theoretically it'd benefit all parties.
>>153221884Expect? No. But the streamers livelihood depends on very long broadcast times. It's a big problem for them. They're very vocal complainers.I imagine that a show being popular could mean people watch a stream just for the show. Or a popular show could have exclusively deals with certain streamers. It's something. Something compared to the nothing that is adsense. Nestle doesn't want oreos appearing next to your show unless they have their team of adversarial demons vet you. Then the corporate yt channels get special treatment anyways. It's a game designed to make you lose. No one should play it.
>>153221827Honestly surprised why this hasn't been tried. I'd like to see moistcritical host an animation block like Krusty the clown
>>153221930Except the streaming services are also money pits.
>>153221089Heard the saying "Major in something actually useful that will make you money, minor in something you are passionate about". Getting a job that will pay the bills and give you something to fall back on should be the default if you want to be into creative shit.
The old model worked.People would watch a show or movie on their TV, the network airing said program would make money thanks to ads, and then they'd make even more money after releasing the VHS/DVD. The old network and physical media model allowed for an absolutely massive range of media to be funded.
>>153220998>Hazbin HotelSpeaking of which, I’m genuinely curious why patreon support for something with so many views is so low in proportion, do people just really not want to passively support stuff they like?
>>153222008>like krustyExactly. An actual real live recreation of the bozo the clown show for the same reason in the same way. No one's tried it because someone has to take a huge risk and produce a show for free first.
>>153222046NTA but I graduated in CS and still can't find workI thought you faggots said to learn to code?
>>153222056Because it's already being bankrolled by AmazonAs is Helluva nowWhy the fuck should we be giving Mrs Piggy any more money?
>>153222047yep here's matt damon talking about thathttps://youtube.com/shorts/QlWb4vjaJBI?si=m51OKJ4UzZK4INBE
>>153221180It's hilarious how scared indie projects are of using rigs or limited frame by frame when early internet animation used them to little complaints
>>153220998>xitter thread
>>153222047It also created a view of mystery between the marketer's perceptions and reality. Television ad space was being sold at a humungously inflated cost because there was no way to know better. Neilson's job was to make numbers dance around and trick advertisers into thinking every dollar they spent on ads gave them back 10 in sales. Ludicrous and unbelievable. No kne really knew how many people were watching. Now we KNOW. Song writers were complaining, back when oandora was new, that they'd get checks from the radio broadcasters for thousands of dollars month after month. Then they'd get a check from pandora for less than the postage. Same formula except they assume 10 million people are listening to their music when it airs, and they know for a fact that it's only a dozen people streaming online.What's worse for them is television consolidated viewership. There qWas like 6 hours of prime tv watching a day and a dozen major network. The whole audience got squished into these boxes. Now everyone watches what they want when they want. We each became a nation.
>>153222077Getting your foot in the door is the hardest part.Send at least 20 applications a day, and when you're not applying, work on a project, an actual useful project, not a shitty todo-list app. Something you're passionate about (for example mine was a 2D vulkan game/animation engine). That really puts you ahead when it comes to the interview stage, especially when you're competing against ten other candidates with similar credentials. It makes you stand out and keeps it from becoming a hat pick. Good luck.
>>153222047I'll never forgive streaming, specifically Netflix, for killing physical mediaMotherfucking Target and Best Buy near me got rid of all their Blu-ray sections. FYE and Moviestop closed down in my city. Shopping is honestly a bit depressing now
>>153222077Www.Jobs.now
How do I animate? I want to show him how easy it is to make money.
>>153222228It had to happen.
>>153222286FineI'll just download my favorite shows and movies and burn them to discI need to relive the good times
>>153221492The elephant in the room that most people don't want to admit is that the vast majority of the audience for cartoons is children, teenagers, and poor third worlders, who don't have money.The only people willing to pay $40 for 30 minutes of animation are anime fans or Japanese people, and that's because the stuff like that that's charging that kind of money is usually aimed at adults.
>>153222210you should actually tailor the application to the job, using the same keywords in the job description so their retarded resume reading AI can whitelist your application from the pile. brute numbers is a waste of time.
>>153222504Onions millennials, zillenials, and genz still like cartoons, and oldest gen zs turning thirty gives ample ability to support animation. I saw a girl at my college wearing a digital circus jax sweater who looked like she was 20.
>>153221876they don't really make ovas anymoreand for a good reasonyou can guess whyno one buys things anymore and never really bought animated projects even during the 80s and 90s in the west, you're not gonna get them to buy them now
>>153221747That's not going to be sustainable soon, with sites like twatter now cutting back on how much they pay for monetization (which I'm fine with, that shit is mostly used by scammers) and Youtube becoming more corporate and saving the big ad bucks for the big names and corpo channels, relying on ad revenue won't really be feasible for indie animation, especially now that Youtube is being inundated with AIslop that they're more than happy to point retarded children and third worlders towards.All of these corporations are practicing the same thing Microsoft perfected in the 90s; embrace, extend, extinguish, and all of the animation community online was too dumb to realize this and create or even USE alternative platforms to build up an audience outside of these major corporate platforms.Because of this, you will always be beholden to their whims, and their whims change as often as we change our clothes.
>>153222576Those people are also poorfags with no money, college kids especially are going to be extremely poor, especially in the current market where their job prospects are literally just as bad as someone who didn't even finish high school.
>>153221554hey, i'll have y'know universal studios is a pretty ok park
>>153222504thats why you pull a george lucas and make insane amount of merch and merch deals.hot topic and amazon should be flooded with indie cartoon t shirts
>>153221492Maybe charge for early access to an episode, although if its plot focused that could get people to spoil it.
>>153222576was it even an official sweater? come on dude, have some imagination for commerce if you want this industry to actually flourish
>>153222651digital circus is doing that for a theatrical release and its got everyone pissed
>-re for quality art and content. Finished it for you. Everybody knows there's no money in being an animator, otherwise Arin Hanson would still be doing it.
>>153222611how does one even make an alternative to youtube, though?
>>153222681Odysee
>>153222681There are multiple alternatives that already exist, no one in the animation industry uses them because they're mostly used by conservatives and the animation industry is too shortsighted to ever understand why they might need to branch out from corporate platforms in the long run.
>>153222611>all of the animation community online was too dumb to realize this and create or even USE alternative platforms to build up an audience outside of these major corporate platforms.No because having your own website outside if the main social media audience bubble gives people Le ick. I would do it if I could but I don't know much about websites other than basic html
>>153222629I've seen many a story of millennials owning their own homes. They ain't poor.
>>153222705>gives people Le ick.Like I said, too fucking stupid.This is what happens when your audience is made up of clout-chasing retards and tech-illiterate mongoloids who will never use anything that isn't part of the corporate-owned platforms.
>>153222650The GAP corporation and Mattel and hasbro and all of them are best friends and youre not invited to their clubs. You want to.make.mpney selling $30 dollar t shirts you need connections to malasian sweatshops that'll print your shirts for 2 cents each.
>>153222728Most of the millennials who own their own homes ain't the ones spending money on cartoon merch, unless it's for their kids.Those Disney adults you see are usually drowning in debt, living paycheck-to-paycheck, and struggling to even pay their bills, that's why you keep hearing about them going to Disney World to commit suicide and shit.
>>153222576Dude after 25 years old any support for indie shit drops off a cliff. Adults don't really give a shit about the heckin cool new indie cartoon
>>153222702>There are multiple alternatives that already existBut what are their names?
>>153222702No on who doesnt HAVE TO to go to an alt platform wants to be associated with the people who DO. and it's stupid and cliquey and a self creating problem. If they were open minded enough to allow themselves to be on rumble they'd also be open minded enough to drop their marxist lip service. Then they'd lose their audience because even if they aren't like that their viewers are.
>>153222774see>>153222696But also Rumble, Dailymotion, Vimeo.The latter two have been around for decades at this point, though Rumble is probably the biggest Youtube competitor outside of foreign platforms like BiliBili, which can also be an option, but you're mainly going to be attracting a Chinese audience there.
>>153222774you don't know them, they're in canada
>>153221089I am impressed and envious you managed to do all that with your time.Congratulations.How'd you even manage all that?
>>153222047the old model worked for its era and became obsolete for the new era. Such is the way of humanity. The biggest problem in all of this is suits are still trying to apply old methodology to new environments because they're stubborn and lazy
>>153222774Bitchute, odysee, rumble, mindsThe smart thing is to have your own website where you host your own content, but now you have to be your own broker too.
>>153220998> t. Lives in a $6,000 one bedroom apartment in Los Angeles, leases a luxury vehicle for $7,000 a month plus insurance, and shops at a store where the milk is $27 a gallon because it's "A2"When they say: "you don't make any money." they want you to think they make less then you but they really mean: "I ONLY make $56/hr, that's nothing!"
>>153222794>Dailymotion, Vimeo.I actually wonder how many people still use those, are there any stats for that?
>>153222813And if you ever get a gig going that works and makes you money they'll come after you.
>>153222794vimeo has recently been gaped with age verification if you're a eurofag
>>153222762>>153222760Prove it
>>153222774>4chan user can't read.>In other news, fork found in kitchen.It's literally in the post one above what you replied to.>>153222696
>>153222912what's the prove?if the market exists where is it?
>>153221268I've actually long had the idea that advertising in general seemed like it cost way too fucking much for what it's likely doing.
>>153221180While all of that simultaneously may not be feasible, there's a lot more they could be doing to save time and cost. For example just watch between 2:00-5:00 of this video. No one would have a problem with this type of animation, especially if it was hand drawn cel animation. This show is even notorious for having had basically zero budget and it still looks great and is very entertaining. https://youtu.be/EdXYAc-zxBI
>>153222806I actually had a pretty shit GPA upon graduation. I can't emphasize enough the project aspect of my post here, pretty much every job I've gotten I showed my work to the interviewer (aside from my first job which was a startup with 3 employees). I guess the other point would be to not be afraid to job hop. I've actually only willingly job hopped once, all other times I was laid off (in one case fired) and then scored a higher paying job not too long after.
>>153222941>Just because channels like CN and Nick failed to make anything good or even merchandise their actual memorable shows means there's no marketThere's a reason glitch is making so much money on digital circus, and if I actually had the numbers I bet most of the purchases would be from ages 20-35+
>>153222008Most streamers are narcissistic while simultaneously lacking charisma, they want to be front and center. Streamers also aren't business savvy Sam Hyde would probably do himself a world of good if he stopped trying to be the face of MDE and took a backseat to host other people's work, not try to be some faggy Art Bell rip-off
>>153221268the system is a little more complicated than you thinklots companies KNOW that the direct influence of tv and radio commercials can be tenuous unless if its something brand new that really needs people to be aware of it the power of advertisement is much more than "it'll get consumers to buy our things" if they were making good products in the first place the consumers would naturally buy them no, the power of advertisements is also in the security the investor feels when they see them
>>153223080Anon, if you actually think 30+ year old millennials are buying TADC merch in any worthwhile numbers, you're fucking retarded.Most of that show's audience is without a doubt under 18, with most of the people buying merch being between the ages of 14 and 24.
>>153223080one outlier isn't a flourishing market
>>153223049Alright yeah fair enough, having good projects to show counts for more than anything.How do you narrow down what projects to focus on?Sometimes it's like I have adhd, I jump around too much when I hit roadblocks.
>>153223115Prove it, show me some numbers big guy so we can stop theorizing and have facts and admit which one of us is wrong. I bet if we look at the theater reception we will see just what the demographics are.
>>153223081Ghost of Kiev needs to take a step back and think about what he's producing as a whole.Scuffed realtor was pretty solid though, most organically funny thing they have.
>>153221275>>153221554>>153221631Lol this is the honest truth.>>153221451This. L.A. is the next Detroit. Just like the automotive industry collapsed and did what it did to that city the entertainment industry collapse is now doing the same to L.A.>>153221386Lol that's some seethe: "his parents have him good advice and took an active interest in him and that lead to him being a successful and happy adult? They must be EVIL!" >>153221351Everyone wants to believe they'll be the exception and for awhile Hollywood sold them that idea on a silver platter but it was all a scam to socially program people while getting rich of advertising & inflated rental units they already owned (because you have to move to L.A. and rent one of their apartments if you want to "make it.") while also drawing in all the most attractive young women the world over for them to use and abuse as they saw fit. It's been nothing but a deplorable scam since the beginning.>>153221318Yes it does LMAO he's being very disingenuous hoping you'll think he's basically the show writer and not a jingle writer.>>153221321That should've never been a thing.
>>153222681>>153222774>>153222816>>153222816>>153222929>ctrl+F>Not one mention of the OGshame. Now that flash is dead it's basically the modern animator's youtube, the multimedia deviantart, and despite being just as NSFW it seems to have lost the moniker of being only for edgy kids and shitty r34
>>153223177I like Newgrounds, but I don't know if it was ever really a Youtube alternative.It is however a pretty good animation hub, but again, the modern animation audience in the west is too retarded to figure out anything that's not spoonfed to them via an app store or pushed by the TikTok algorithm.
>>153223177people who think newgrounds could be an alternative never understood why youtube was ever seen as the standard or why newgrounds never took off in the first place
>>153220998Now, i have no idea about what this guys background or lifestyle might be, and i know that america (or pretty much everywhere else, if he's not from there) is fucked economically right now, but let me take a crack at it anyway.Theres an actual, non-zero chance that for all we know this guy actually makes a very solid salary thats more than enough to live at least nicely, if not good. For all we know, he might have this retarded - i'd call it californian - mindset, where he HAS to spend an insane amount of money on useless, pointless and expensive dogshit purely because he has to, with which he copes by saying "uhhhhh i aint getting paid enough to live like a degenerate waaaaaah". Like constantly eating take out and maccas, taking cabs everywhere, needing to buy a new Iphone, macbook and a GPU the moment it releases, buying branded clothes, using a ton of subscription services and all that sort of crap that really no one fucking needs that eats a shitload of money. It is a very high possibility, especially considering he works as a writer and these types often can be VERY full of themselves. Frugality is a very lost art today and it wouldnt be the first time i've seen someone whine like that with their eyes closed to the truth.He might also just fucking suck at his job or doing jackshit in terms of script, like anons above say about him only writing a few songsHowever, i might also be wrong and he might actually be living paycheck to paycheck for honest work, but theres no drama in this hypothetical so its not as fun to discuss.But another likely option is that he's just gatekeeping other writefags out by demoralizing them from working on indies by saying that it aint paying shit, effectively killing the competition in the womb, like how many other types of artists have been doing for the longest time
>>153220998>indie>working as a contractor for other shows owned by a larger company??????????????????????
>>153221180>and we will see it implode in the near future.it's impossible for "indie" anything to implode because people will still produce independently as long as it's not literally illegal to do so (and they'll still do it then anyway lol)
>>153221746Yes, I do and unironically it's bad for you. Every day being just like a pretty decent summer day destroys your psyche. You need the seasons and bad weather to help you gauge the passage of time and to give you an unavoidable reason to think about and plan for the future. In California you just get lost in a daze where you think every day is the same and it's an endless Summer vacation. It's not uncommon for people to turn around and be like: "I moved here EIGHT YEARS AGO!? Woah. Oh, well. It'll all work out soon." That's how you get people looking like James Gunn where they're 50-60 and still trying to dress like a hip 20-something and talking about how they still "want to have kids and buy a house some day." On some level you realize what's going on but it's incredibly easy to just ignore. Meanwhile , it turns everyone into a rootless cosmopolitan that's isolated from their friends and family and living in a remote location surrounded by people that will drop and forget about them in three seconds while theirorals and values gradually become eroded by the culture. A literal lotus eater machine. It's what that Nine Inch Nails song is really about. > Every Day is Exactly the Same> There is no love here, and there is no pain.> Every Day is Exactly the Same
>>153223233>this guy i know nothing about should spend less money on avacado toastfuck off boomerzoomer
>>153220998How exactly do anons expect new cartoons to be made of the animators and writers have to work for free or less than min wage while juggling a full time job?Imo, people will need to start accepting lower quality animation and shorter episodes in order for this to work
>>153221631I wish this was true, they keep moving here even though it's riiiight betwixt texas and mississippi
>>153223271people don't want indie to be some rando dude in their mother's basement making a slide show every month to be indie animationnor do they want indie animation to be that same guy making a single well animated 5 minute cartoon every other yearthey want stuff to be as consistently released as tv anime, but also on the same level of quality of a 90s OVA
>>153221089Cool, can I see one of your finished projects anon?
>>153223245That's just the capitalist world of subcontracting we are in now. Civilian shipyard companies are dedicated to building the entire Navy's fleet of ships and yet they are only government contracted, not actually military themselves. One reason America desperately needs the Right to Repair legislated is because of companies saying their proprietary secrets mean they can't release schematics and sell the same manufactured parts they use, so you're either stuck calling a company repairman or brute forcing a fix yourself and probably break some warranty. But even then sometimes those very same companies put their individual contract assignments up for bid and subcontract them out to the highest bidder kind of like a bounty board, which is what I used to do; I'd go around fixing or replacing grocery store hardware for a company located halfway across the state. I didn't represent them, nor did I represent the corporate of the stores I'd go service, I would have been freelance if I wasn't doing it under some LLC that just handed me the jobs, the LLC were the ones grabbing the "bounties" online and I'd go do them.
>>153223329let me tell you about the new era and AI.....
>>153223228go on, why is that?
>>153220998>Unless you're extremely lucky, there's really no money to be made workingCould have stopped there.
>>153223399more people use youtube and youtube actually gives you money
>>153223391People are already bitching about the Regular Show revival's animation, you think they'll accept AI?
>>153223421How much these days, like a penny every 1000 views?
>>153223421Youtube's adsense payouts ain't shit these days.
>>153223434and what does newgrounds give?
>>153223296People are simply far too used to getting entertainment for free. How the sausage is made is of no concern. They want their cartoons and they want them now. They'd be fine with literal Cambodian slaves making them in a shack
>>153223446Unless you're Glitch or Vivziepop, about the same.
>>153223422there are always luddites and in general internet screeching barely means anything. People have already shown a big enough appetite for AIslop and that'll probably increase as the tech improves. Now there's also the risk of everybody just fucking off to their walled AI gardens, but that takes a certain level of initiative that shouldn't just be assumed for the masses
it’s funny how we’re getting regurgitated AI talking points when this shit hasn’t made anything
>>153223470so you don't knowi don't want to say youtube is actually a good place for animation, because it isn't. it was like a decade go and they kept changing their monetization system and that system just gets worsebut newgrounds has never been a real alterantivealso don't underestimate it actually being a website people use
>>153223446Who cares, Newgrounds has no opportunities to grow your influence.
>>153221279particular reason /co/ still goes with this outdated information?
>>153223516salt
>>153223296Simple just make 25 episodes all at once then release them once a week.
>>153223504if you build it they will come. It's already a great spot, it just needs more users and attention, and people like us can make that happen. If industry cartoonists visit and peruse /co/ they won't be adverse to scouting talent over there either.
>>153221682> Fully remote work employees based out of rural locations> Culture of: make this your side hustle until we start making moneyThis will work 100% because KyoAni did this back in the day when they had to physically mail paper through the post office and all of their employees were mothers/housewives who did their storyboarding/animation/in-between jobs in their free time while tending house and child caring.> Pander to Straight White Males aged 12-40For the majority of "the industry's" existence this was the target demographic and it worked. Not doing this has been disastrous. It doesnt matter how you feel or what you think is right, this is simply the truth.> Focus merch on action figures/collectibles. Secondary would be black tshirts/hoodies, posters, and possibly lunchboxes/backpacksThis is what made shows all of their money > Work out "advertising deals" where you simply announce: "this episode was brought to you by BRAND." Tell people if they buy that brand or write in to thank them they'll be more likely to do it in the futureThis worked for years and was even how radio dramas supported themselves.> Use animation tricks such as shown here: >>153222999 and dont be afraid to add fan service for men: (i.e. power fantasies/aura farming, Pervy jokes, attractive women who show interest in/subservience to the hero This will gain you viewers and money even if Twitter will be mad at you. > Focus on cel animation/Don Bluth-type aesthetics.It's easier than ever to do these things. While nothing will ever look as good as hand drawn paper animation you can cut corners nowadays by drawing everything on a tablet and then printing it out on plastic cellophane. With some ingenuity I wouldn't be surprised if you could even color it digitally and then print off the cels in color directly on the plastic sheets. You can then animate it directly using something as basic as a $600 Black Magic camera and edit everything in post on a computer.
>>153220998Seriously Would you guys really be fine with industry TV animation dying and indie scaling down to 2-5 min long, limited animated shorts possibly made by amateur hobbyists?
>>153220998>songwriter>lives in burbankis this really the best that industrycucks can do?
>>153223498Well anon, if it's a money issue then you're gonna have to play by Youtube's rules, and Youtube doesn't really give a fuck about animation and will gladly see it all replaced by AIslop.
>>153223545None of this aside from maybe the demographics part is sustainable in any way
>>153223556yes because the people who love to complain get to say "wow they don't make stuff like this anymore!"
>>153223556I like shit from creators like Worthikids, and that's pretty on par with the world of youtube animations, so yeah I guess. Not like those 5 minute episodes won't be compiled and eventually presented as entire episodes or seasons eventually.
>>153221922This could work but the problem is there aren't enough people who are willing to do this and the ones that are won't have the money to sustain this. We will get to the point where people just say: "Oh well, no more cartoons."
>>153222994Everyone was making money with no problems for nearly a century. Then the same problems ruining everything else started running this too, and the movers and shakers in the media bear a lot of blame for it.
>>153222762>25I'd argue closer to 30. 35 on drops off hard, but 30 is the peak of "Animation/pokemon/video games/marvel" consumer. It's probably the major reason Glitch could continue on TADC, 30 year olds have wallets and buy shit.
>>153223584yeah no shit, what have we been even talking about this whole time
>>153223049Projects in relation to your job, or animation? I'm confused
>>153223104The point stands: the money they spend on advertising does not translate into sales.
everyone forgets that short period when netflix was seen as the future of animationthey released a fine mix of quality but people only remember the bad stuff and forget the good stuff
On one hand, I totally believe that animation and cartoonistry deserve compensation for their work, but on the other I also believe that art when released to the public should be widely available for consumption to benefit, enrich, motivate and inspire people as a humanitarian good. No model I can consider that isn't some government subsidized socialist shitshow would ever work though.
>>153222077It sounds like that was a paid shill campaign to flood the market because the coders made too much money. A better sector to get into would be pharmaceuticals.
>>153223650not entirely but publicly traded companies also get money from investors
>>153222056> do people just really not want to passively support stuffAre you being serious? Yes. Yes that's is how things work. Money doesn't grow on trees.
>>153223618ThisAs stated ITT, we need to seriously prepare for the possibility of western tv/indie animation dying as a wholeNobody wants to pay for it, nobody wants to animate for free. At the end of it all you will have some hobbyists but I don't think we'll really see large scale work in the coming decades
>>153223296Make animation hard as fuck. Make it impossible. The industry is full of unpassionate joiners who make shit and their very value systems undermine their story telling ability. You should have to bleed to animate only to scare off the vapid NPCs who want to be animators to be "cool"
>>153220998>I've written for the biggest shows out thereThe biggest indie shows are like 10 episodes long that's not exactly a lot.
>>153223533its needed more users and attention for the last 20 years. its not happening
>>153223556If tv died indie animation would scale up not down
>>153223115I think your idea of age ranges is 10 years out of date. the younger half of millennials are the biggest consumers that love plushes/dolls/funko pops/nenderoids/stickers etc. to the point they're probably the biggest demographic actually spending on it.14 to 18 is probably asking their parents, and 18 to 24 are probably broke and get a sticker or shirt, if anything, 25 to 30 is buying the bulk. The "Undertale fans" who were 15ish when it came out, are now 26, and a lot of the show's aesthetics is built on the later 20's/early 30's childhood culture. Obviously teens and kids make a large viewing demographic, but for spending, it's older, and I've seen a lot of people watch it with their kids (30 year olds with 10 year olds)Once you get to X or older millennial it plummets because they resent anything sincere and are too busy having panic attacks that they're getting older with graying hair and knowing they'll die alone because they either didn't have kids or have been so emotionally distant and petty that their kids will put them in nursing homes with abusive nurses, and they'll need it because of all the lead exposure they got in the womb that's done numbers on their brain.
>>153223707Ok then expect less shows to consoomAnd expect to pay for them because cartoon veterans don't work for free
>>153223533>scouting talentTHERE ARE NO JOBS!STOP TRYING TO GET A JOB!JOBS ARE FOR ASSHOLES!
>>153223689How relevant is it to say that most big fields of entertainment as a whole, possibly coincidentally, are suffering a similar decline now?>Hollywood was hit hard during the pandemic, stopped releasing films, went straight to streaming for many, and now people don't see a point to going to the theaters anymore>Videogame budgets are inflating like crazy while consumers are buying less, live services are dying left and right because the novelty has worn off and people like to play more than 1 game their whole livesMany many institutions may face a crash. For vidya, I was waiting for another crash so that (hopefully) dedicated indie devs could rise from the ashes and carry the torch while the AAA industry fucks off, but I know better than to blindly be so optimistic.
>>153223749We'll have less chaff and the same amount of wheat.
>>153223126The main one I show off was a means to an end (basically most game engines didn't have sprite animation features that I needed, so I just made one myself). Scrum gets a lot of shit, but JIRA tickets on a personal level is great for enumerating what needs to be done, and making progress.>>153223646Projects in relation to coding>>153223350Eh, fuck ithttps://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/901873https://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/1019687
>>153223556No and anyone who claims they would is lyingThey want their high budget slopMost people, especially here, have no idea what actually goes into animation production. The level of ignorance regarding the process here is absolutely insane.
>>153220998>>153221180Why is it that there's so much demand for animated content but there so little money in it for the creators? People love animation, people consume shit tons of anime (different market I know), people WANT it but the money for people to actually make a living DOING it is so low. Where's the gap? I'm curious as to where the economics breaks down. How could indie's adjust their model to be successful?
>>153223707as if everyone who enters into animation wasn't passionate about it at one pointits never been easy and always been hard as fuckpeople want animation to be good, fast, and cheapbut you can never have all three usually fast and cheap is what we have to deal with because it sells just as well as something good and cheap or fast and good
>>153223779Most cartoon fans are either kids or broke kidults they have no money
>>153223779>(different market I know)Boy that's an understatement.
>>153222504And it's a local thing that supports their economy and designed so anyone can get a job doing it if they want to. There's a whole breakdown about it but this even goes for local girls getting to do beauty pageants and eventually possibly getting to voice a character on a show or a local bar band getting to do an opening or closing song or even a local business just veing featured in a scene to drive up sales. There's incentives, and Japan is dmall enough (the size of California) that it feels like it benefits everyone and society at large. In America, it's gatekept sonyou have to already be "in the club" or adjacent just to afford to get in by going to CalArts or whatever and then on top of that all of those people are far away in the distant land of Hollywood. Unless you're an Angelino you may as well be sending your money to Japan for how similar it feels so no one feels invested or passionate about it. Disney was a rare exception to the formula because they tailored a lot of their content to adapting stories from our cultural history and adding in values that felt uniquely American and in the live action market made movies that were indeed uniquely American like Somg of the South, Johnny Tremaine, and Davy Crockett. It became a cultural staple that united various European identities under one label they could all agree upon. In addition, they indeed would hire regular people off the street and had studios based outside of the California epicenter.Now, it's modu operandi is an explicit rejection of that and commitment to doing the opposite in the name of "progress." and they're getting exactly the result you would expect.
>>153223779a lot of extremely vocal 3rd-worlders who want infinite content but they want to pirate it all
>>153223787>as if everyone who enters into animation wasn't passionate about it at one pointThat's my accusation.
>>153220998The most off-putting thing for me about becoming an animator wasn't the pay, it was the groupthink. I have dozens of original projects, I'd rather work a non-art job and think about them than an art job and be forced into a conformity that psychologically poisons them.
>>153222646Yeah, but you're not going to go there frequently. Especially at $150 a ticket. Heck, you don't even go clubbing in WeHo more then a few times your first couple of years.
>>153223876softly enforced by the higher ups, or not seeing eye to eye with the conformity of your colleagues and equals?
>>153223779It's the american entertainment industry getting fat on easy money for 80 years. Being an animator used to be indentured servitude. That was when your whole studio were american men. Now every studio also needs room for diversity hires, outsourcing to Singapore, and also a couple billies for celebrity voice actors. They used to be able to afford all their luxuries and then kne day they couldn't. Instead of reverting (thereby declaring the chuds right) they're going to just sink into the abyss while denying gravity.
>>153223850>or a local bar band getting to do an opening or closing songReminds me of how HANABIE started as a bunch of high school girls in an after-school band.But yea, you're right, the thing that's missing is a real ecosystem in America that has synergy with all of these industries. Cartoons became very cliquey and insular, and as a result they're just not able to sustain what they used to back when they were more culturally prevalent.
>>153223936you’re talking to a hallucinating devianart schizo btw
>>153222774Also Peertube
>>153223779Animation is really expensive, time and money. Lots of man power to make a decent product. Some super autists put back breaking amounts of time and effort in to pump out something decent in an ok amount of time, which I think Smiling Friends capitalized on by hiring said super autists, but it's still not cheap. As margins get tighter, less can be done. cartoons for a long time were cutting corners, or glorified ads for toys, or both, because merch is usually the only major driving force for revenue with animation. CN around the 90's/2000's/2010's fumbled merch deals and toy deals and ended up killing really popular shows that could have probably done well with merch (Sym Bionic Titan comes to mind, literally cool giant fighting robot and swordsman and military and monsters) which made them a loss.Glitch understood merch is the lifeblood of animation and banked on it ultra hard, and it seems to be doing well. This is of course hazardous for much less marketable stories, Seinen for example, don't appeal to the same demographics that'll buy a shirt or a plushes of the main characters, and things like blu rays are just not around anymore to really make it worth the investment.
>>153223876The industry is infected by joiner types. Being an animator(an entertainer at all too) used to be shameful. Now it's "cool". So all the people who want to be "cool" are flocking to it and crowding out the industry. It ought to be made up of contrarians and weirdos. And not faux weirdos.
>>153221180Homestuck should be a template where if somebody has something they want to make, they do it in webcomic format. Where no budget is required and they have the freedom to switch up the media to things like animation if they find the time, money, manpower or inspirationHigh-budget animation looks cool and everything, but that's all. Everything else that's good about a show can be done for pennies. And sometimes still images from the hands one person who cares about it blows it's animated equivalent out of the water MSPFA should also be a template, where there's a hosting or directory website that lists and organizes such works, so people can easily find them and good ones can naturally gain attention, instead of being cucked out of exposure by corporate decisions With the power of the internet we should be doing storytelling and art better than ever before, but we're still letting money and companies cripple us
>>153223949Boil I was going to go back on my punishment since you barely even think anymore but you got more aggressive, as you project, so I won't.
>>153223972>glorified ads for toysSome of the greatest shows ever were toy commercials. It was a good gig. The money men kept out of the creative side and only cared that you found a way to out their latest toy design in the show somehow. Now that all the studios fein "integrity" they're destroying the industry making every show a faggot-indoctrination therapy.
>>153222833Industry people actually use them a lot to upload their movies, shows, and etc as private videos they share among themselves as private links rather than host their own space and because YouTube is a little too "on the radar" and if they mess up and accidentally make it public everyone will see and rip it in two seconds but it could go like a ship in the night on those sights. Most film festivals like Sundance, Canned, SXSW, etc will ask you to upload your submission on Dailymotion or Vimeo and send them the private link rather than expect you to host it somewhere or pay for large file high speed p2p services (which editing trends unfortunately do have to use)
>>153223977how long ago do you think this was?
>>153224025Just overnight them a thumb drive. holy shit what's with these clowns?
>>153223228Newgrounds was super popular back in the day. There's were kids I knew who weren't even into animation that had it set to their homepage because it was "the cool website."
>>153224048There's no "point" because it was a slow burn but the curve hit an elbow sometime in the previous 40 years. The live action side got it early.because of the stigma against animation but then being a grown up kid also became "cool" so the animation industry got melon balled too.
>>153224023toy companies didn't ignore the creatives, they were actively destructive elements that the creatives had to dance aroundthey killed optimus prime because they didn't think people cared about their stupid robot man and would just buy the next toybtas was subject to all kinds of stupid shit that the creators had to keep fighting against THE BATMAN is such a weaker show because they creative team around that pretty much folded whenever toy decisions were brought up
>>153223233It's exactly what you said plus the gatekeeping part as well and they justify it by saying "living under capitalism" is so "mentally traumatizing" that they HAVE to do all that stuff just to cope and "survive." That talking point doesn't go over so well, so you normally only hear it in person if you visit these areas.>>153223286Case in point
>>153224067it was popular before people figured out how to make a profit on the internet how many solo animators on newgrounds did you like as a kid? how many of them were making content at a consistent rate? how many are still even animating today on their own terms and not just streaming instead?
>>153224003If we're talking about animations in a (web)comic format, what about something like this?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOYin0BKKaY
Toys as an industry are also dying or downsizing and can't really compete with various forms of entertainment. The real synergy is merch, but boomers gonna boomer and continue to shove square pegs into round holes until they can't anymore
>>153224003>Where no budget is required and they have the freedom to switch up the media to things like animation if they find the time, money, manpower or inspirationHussie paid lots of people to make art, animation, and music for himactually look into the monetization of these projects before you make these general statements
>>153220998>I've written for terrible shows and I'm starvingPlease don't make me believe in God
>>153223601Yes, it is, because these are all things that have already been done and worked for others IRL and instead of reinventing the wheel I just looked at how other studios have done it and compiled their methods while also showing how now it's even easier and more feasible than ever before. Your argument against it is: "but I don't wanna! I WANT to live in L.A.! I WANT to LARP that I'm a hot shot celebrity like Stephen Speilberg or Brad Pitt! I WANT to live in a big mansion in the hills and drive a Lamborghini! I WANT to have a monopoly on the content so everyone is FORCED to produce cintent that appeals to my beliefs and sensibilities and if they stray from that I WANT to be able to blacklist them for wrong think! I don't want a bunch of regular people with their own idras making what they want to see all across the country free from the exertion of my controlling influence and I DON'T WANT to live in a perfectly desirable 4,000 square foot house in a small town living a comfortable middle class lifestyle. I'm an ENGLIGHTENED COSMOPOLITAN!!!!!!!"
>>153224191>Toys as an industry are also dying or downsizing and can't really compete with various forms of entertainment. The real synergy is merchwhat about vidya games
if the stuff you feel lurkwarm to doesn't give the artists a living, what hope is their for the stuff you like giving the artists a living?
>>153224241kids only play fortnite and roblox
>>153220998Living paycheck to paycheck depends on the individual. Many celebrities that make millions do so. How do we know this retard doesn't just constantly blow all his money away, and that's the reason this job isn't enough to sustain him?
>FortniteDead
>>153223749I'd rather have one Ranma 1/2 or Gargoyles than 100 Wastelandia clones but there's a healthy middle ground. It just involves a rejection of Tumblr influence
>>153224241are a mixed bag and can have highish dev costs. They also become dated quicker. Vidya is more like an add-on than consistent money maker at least until you reach a certain size
>>153224191They aren't making cool toys anymore!>cartoons are dying>toys are dyingThey REFUSE to do what they know will work because they(the people applying for the jobs) dont like it.
>>153223765Music, too, but it will take a little longer
>>153224268Even Fortnite is losing its audience, hence why Epic had to lay off 1000 employees earlier this year.
>>153224205Is there a reason people tend to believe these comic and animation projects are made for free? You don't see this sentiment with live action to my knowledge
>>153224285should we really assume that everyone with money issues is just bad with money?regardless of what they put their money into, the truth of the matter is they're unhappy with their paythis means people with more talent and sense will feel less inclined to enter said field because its just a bad investment and with a deficient of talent, comes with a deficient of quality product there's lots of talented artists out there, but many of them would rather enter fields with better pay or at least consistent pay. most of the time not even in an art related field
>>153221089I actually went to art school because I wanted to get into animation only to feel like a waste, the only benefit is that I'm affording a better living drawing porn
>>153223876This is really what's killing it. People can feel that mindset behind the shows and what they're displaying and it's what makes everyone think they're so milquetoast and uninspiring. It doesn't help that what they're showing isn't anything anyone actually wants but an amalgamation of what they think they SHOULD want based on their niche opinions
>>153224268FNF
>>153224355>should we really assume that everyone with money issues is just bad with money?Yes. Grow up.
>>153223049corporate loyalty is dead, unless you're in an amazing job with great pay you want to at least swing branches every 2-3 years
>>153224386Yes absolutely. There is a pernicious personality rype and they get hired and promoted above others because they are like the people who make those decisions.
>>153220998I thought Glitch supported and cared for their creators? Are you telling me the company that prepares mountains of merch and other bullshit months in advance of every TADC episode release is run by greedy assholes who get rich off the hard work of all the animators, writers, and actors?I am shocked! It was never like this in hollywood!...
>>153224316there's always been this romanticized ideal of an artist who gets to work for himself by their own terms and doesn't give a shit about money.truth is, everyone has to work and feed themselves
>>153224003They could also be doing more: "motion comic" type works. It's far easier and cheaper to do. It's not the most ideal but it's definitely acceptable and it's strange there isn't anyome trying it. Everyone wants to make basically a Pixar film
>>153222046This but I majored in comp sci, got sick and had to drop out, got better and finished but there's no jobs anymore some 1000 applications in.
>>153224404money issues isn't just people who are in crippling debt, it also extends to people just unhappy they can't afford shit they wantsomeone on a fixed income can survive but people want to thrive
Long gets more and more vindicated by the day
>>153224060You don't get into these positions (where you would be in charge of the festival or submitting to it) by being super competent but by having connections, but also I guess I could see them being worried that the drive might get lost in the mail and somehow leaked? Idk it seems like that's overthinking it but the thought does occur to me
>>153224463just because someone makes something doesn't mean it will be successfulpeople who can make something GREAT will feel less inclined to make things if even the mediocre are struggling to survive most movies are crap but people with a vision to make something great only took the risk that comes with being a creative because they'll think "if this guy can do it, i can to!"
>>153224128I actually never really used newgrounds but everyone else I knew did. I was under the impression it was a gaming website for the longest time
>>153224166you could add some more animation for the speech bubbles + text and add some flat colors and I think that would actually have genuine audience
>>153224214Come home, Anon.
>>153224303This is it exactly.>>153224355> should we really assume that everyone with money issues is just bad with money?Having lived in L.A. and met industry people? Yes. There's a reason they have to pay people $100,000+ a year to manage their money for them and tell them when they're spending too much.
>>153222003>But the streamers livelihood depends on very long broadcast timesFuck, my livelihood only depends on providing value to my employer through skills unrelated to attention whoring
>>153224521There will never be an outcome where we support a drove of mediocrity in the hopes that eventually someone will come along and make something great. That's just not going to happen whether or not it's true, and that's real life. Those people are going to have to just be inspired to try to make something or it just won't ever get made. That may be less than ideal but oh well, it's just a movie, short, or etc. Ironically my idea would help those people because if it's easier and more accessible to make something those people will have an opportunity to make something that can garner an audience and that might lead to making something for a higher budget one day. Take that Liam Vickers guy. If I had scene Internecion Cube online I would've been willing to contribute towards a backerkit for Murder Drones or the like despite the fact that Internecion Cube was basically just an animatic. People need to walk before they run. It's like writing a short story before a novel.
What are anons going to do when TV animation dies and indie is forced to scale down?
>>153224678>There will never be an outcome where we support a drove of mediocrity in the hopes that eventually someone will come along and make something great. That's just not going to happen whether or not it's true, and that's real life.i just brought up the movie industry. did you think every movie in the 80s was some kind of hit?i can also bring up the manga industrymost manga is actually pretty mediocre, or just outside of someone's niche where its functionally mediocre >Those people are going to have to just be inspired to try to make something or it just won't ever get made. That may be less than ideal but oh well, it's just a movie, short, or etc.nothing burns out inspiration faster than an unpaid water bill. sorry not everyone is a neet if anything this kind of talk makes me hate neets even more. they have no excuses not to be creatives who can make 10/10 quality at all times >Take that Liam Vickers guy. If I had scene Internecion Cube online I would've been willing to contribute towards a backerkit for Murder Drones or the like despite the fact that Internecion Cube was basically just an animatic.who cares about hindsight, who are you supporting now? oh wait you don't think they exist in the first place, very convenient for you
>>153224715Ehh.The only indie cartoon I watch anyways is Space King and TV in general is kind of dying.
>>15322099880% of indie creators don't even pay, I know because I've "volunteered" on 10 indie projects now as an animatorEven some of the shit getting 100k or more views still has creators that don't pay. And they are literally selling merch and making ad revenue. It's a scam but I still go along with it because I need the animation experience and if I stop I know I'm not gonna do shit myself
>>153221492There are self run organizations the produce content with an emphasis on small production crews and direct to consumer enterntainment but no one really wants to pay for them. Stuff like Dropout.TV and Nebula making paid youtube channels but the majority of people only want to see the free episodes they post or the reupload of clips. It's not really a good model. You're better off making it free but collecting ad revenue. The real kicker is there should be a content hosting platform that focuses on the user's interest rather than the advertiser like Youtube and Twitch are.Just make the content free to watch as long as a user has watched enough ads, and make the ads something they can play separately on their own time so it's easy to just let 5 min of ads play while you're busy with cooking or taking a walk. Build up ad watch time when you have no real need to be watching so when the stuff you do want to see comes on you're free to watch it without interuptions.>>153221722Streaming services come with tons of demands. If you can even get an agreement that gives you full creative control with no oversight from them they'll still want to force you into having episodes ready as a batch and try to castrate you over allowing anything to be posted by your own team. Streaming services would rather tell you to go fuck off with your hype indie series they could make a fortune just hosting if you're not willing to let them claim ownership and tell you how to make it. Streamers are run by suits that cannot fathom a basic super market business model, if they don't have executive control of it then they don't want it.
>>153224836It probably won't get better
>>153221492then no one would see itand critiques LOVE saying everything is "mid"no one pays for mid
>>153225114>then no one would see itI would see it, if it's something I'm interested in.
>>153222077>>I thought you faggots said to learn to codeIf you don't naturally want to write code, for yourself, without asking Claude to hold your dick or begging npm/node.js/React/Laravel/pip/cargo/Unity/.Net to do all the actual work for you, you wasted your time
>>153223115
>>153224814I would say the flaw in the thinking there is you're starting at the middle. It's not like there were no movies and then they started just pouring money into them and making all of those projects in the 80's. It started exactly as I said: minimal low budget projects, many of which that were made by passionate people in their free time until they got successful and started making money at which point they started investing in other projects to make more money. Obviously most people would like to be in the high point of the market where it's the easiest to get greenlit and have the highest budget but it's not always going to be like that and the only way to get there is by building it up first. Doubly so for manga/anime who had even longer periods of even lower budget projects from even more passionate people. Even though western animation isn't new, it's in a dry period and indie animation is in that beginning stage where it needs to be built up. You don't get to just skip ahead to the golden age, you have to have the way there. In a way it's like when this happened to Hollywood in the 60's: the market got too saturated with nepo babies and executive influence making garbage like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and everyone stopped watching American projects and only watched foreign imports from Britain, France, Italy, and Japan until the execs realized they were going to go bankrupt and get left behind by foreign competitors so they had to start greenlighting outside voices and letting them make the things they wanted. That would still work today, but I doubt it would be allowed to happen in this climate. They want too much control for political reasons and theres too many nepo babies who all feel they deserve a spot first. The only way will be to rebuild a new and separate industry that isn't involved with their unions or companies. It won't be what we're used to and it might take 10-20 years to really get on its feet, but it will work
>>153222794>VimeoEnjoy being billed for views
>>153220998I've said this before, but Animation as a medium has ALWAYS had massive issues with profitability unless tethered to advertising and/or merchandising, it's been something that the industry has had to deal with since the black & white days
>>153224498Reminder he deleted that an hour later
>>153224836What's Alan Ituriel like
>>153225258>It started exactly as I said: minimal low budget projects, many of which that were made by passionate people in their free time until they got successful and started making money at which point they started investing in other projects to make more money.do you think Walt Disney made Snow White just on his free time?the market is in a much different place than they were in the 60sthey DO need to start vouching for outsider voices but outsiders aren't going to be tempted to join the industry if they have no confidence in ithell the industry doesn't even know how to monetize the streaming hellscape we're in right now also with how modern internet critiques are, they'll rip something to shreds if they can find a quick cut. they don't care if the project is humble or not
>>153225268>Enjoy being billed for viewsQrd?
>>153221492Paywalling causes your viewership and hype to instantly crash. Indie animation is fed by kids with little to no money of their own, but with parents who may or may not have money. If you demand 5 bucks a view, that viewership instantly goes away and looks for free content; rather than watching for free and then buying a plushie.It's basically the 80's toy based cartoon relationship, only with no toy company involvement.
>>153222046I remember hearing good college major advice on the radio once:If you know, deep down in your heart, what career you want to have, and you'd enjoy a life with the money you'd expect to get from it, then major in that and enjoy your life.If you want to get rich, major in finance.If you don't know what to do, major in finance.If you know, deep down in your heart, what career you want to have, but you couldn't enjoy a life with the money you'd expect to get from it, then major in finance. Then retire early and do the thing you wanted.
>>153223422If people get desperate enough they will. People need their media fixes to keep them from blowing their brains out and the industry isn't delivering because the suck of reality is also affecting them
>>153223480>>153225750No one wants to pay for AI.That's the thing you're forgetting.All AI content is on the same level as random drama youtubers and tiktok fags talking about their day or complaining into the ether.That's why it's never going to be sustainable for any medium that isn't just endless pointless noise for third worlders and children, which is basically what social media is these days.
>>153221180Indies should stop making animation designed for literal babies of kindergarden.Every indie always have four fingers, demons with big smiles, everybody sing, TV heads.
>>153222598Yeah, no shit. Their heyday ended with the bubble economy and the death of the rental market killed off their distribution pipeline. But I was talking more about how the production side of indie animation is going to look.
>>153221089literally me except there are no jobs now
>>153220998I looked at his twitter. He lives in Louisiana, it seems. That being said, no shit Viv sold out to Amazon. She gets to live in an LA house, flying out to Japan whenever she wants while her fellow pilot crew member is making scraps. If an indie can sell out to the system, it will. That's the real dream. Goose on the other hand perplexes me because I don't know how well Glitch pays. Especially pre TADC, I genuinely wonder how much Liam got paid for MD. If you're going into the industry, aim for the top with a show pitch of your own instead of doing the grunt work.
>>153221087fpbp
>>153225268This sounds vaguely familiar QRD?
>>153225415He didn't start with Snow White, he started by working on Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and Alice in Wonderland shorts in his free time.
I think people are just spoiled by free shit. At peak of animation making money it was back when you either had to buy stuff on video, or were limited to what was on tv. Now people are used to being able to just pirate anything they want on demand for free. It's this kind of thing that killed Rooster Teeth because once it got to the point where they needed to have people actually pay to off set their cost people told them to fuck off and pirated it until the company died.
>>153225426The answer isn't more money, it's making your money worth more. $900 can't even get you a bedroom in California but $600 can get you a house in other states.
>>153223771nta but ty 4 pyw :3
>>153226184He also lived in his office, sleeping in his chair and eating one meal a day in his friends restaurant. He was willing to suffer to get his foot in the door. I don't think most wannabe artists would put themselves through that
>>153226191No offense, but I think a lot of it is just that modern American animation really just feels like glorified fanfiction, which isn't worth paying for.Why in god's name would I pay for something when I know that the story, the themes, and the overall flow of what happens is going to be influenced by the bleating of a bunch of retarded children online because the creators are terminally-online autists?
>>153225510> only with no toy company involvement.This is where they're screwing up. There's no law banning glorified toy commercials, the FCC just started fining shows for doing it, but they don't have jurisdiction over the Internet. You companies should start putting cartoons online to sell action figures.
>>153221609I still see circuses popup around where I live tho... (granted I've never been in one despite that)
>>153226213That's true, but that doesn't mean things are going to change to make it easier for them to do so. The only way it would even get to that point is someone or someones are going to have to do that, get successful, and then open up a pathway for others to do it more easily. The industry isn't going to change up and make things easier for people and the general public isn't all going to pitch in to make it happen, either. The only other option is trying to join a foreign studio but unless you're immigrating then you're in the same boat and honestly even if you do you're basically going to have to do that anyways do you might as well try to start building it out here. If just one person got together and made something like Secret of Nimh we'd have another Don Bluth on our hands. Likewise if they made a Nausicaa we'd have a Ghibli, but it needs to actually be a beautiful and genuine 2D cel animation, not some 3D of CalArts woke nonsense or it has to be stop motion and you could be a Laika. There's even a middle ground where if you're willing to make it look good enough and go all in on genuine and traditional storytelling you could possibly have a Cartoon Saloon situation. If that's a deal breaker then that's just that.
>>153222794Vimeo is explicitly designed to not be an alternative to Youtube, it has a completely different business model.
>>153226265There's probably the 1-2 major circus chains that stay in business, I think he means an entrepreneur deciding to become a ringmaster and rounding up a bunch of freaks and second hand zoo animals then hitting the road in a covered wagon to make a living.
>>153226213Bakshi was right
>>153221089github or it didnt happen
>>153226205The problem is, even with remote opportunities, most productions will gravitate to hubs of the entertainment industry in major cities.
>>153226983Unless they can't. There's literally nothing requiring an animation production to do that. They don't need to film actors, deal with weather conditions, reserve studio space, hire prop masters, etc you can do it anywhere. Heck, when Disney revamped their studios they kicked all the animators out and made them work in 5th wheel campers in an empty parking lot across town. The only thing "requiring" them to do that is execs that want to keep them broke and isolated from their friends and families and force them to rent an apartment in a building they're most likely a part owner of. Besides, that's irrelevant. The industry is basically dead and I doubt it will ever recover. People need to move to remote locations and start trying to make their own indie studios and coordinating with others remotely. If they start doing that then even if the studios manage to survive they'll be forced to follow the leader and do the same.
>>153227099There’s nothing requiring it. But the money people want to have something tangible and that means studios close by them. Same reason why offices still push for people to come in even though remote can be more productive- bosses want to see people in an office so they ‘know” no one is slacking off.Even with the industry doing shit, it’s still more financial security than indie and that’s always going to be a dangling carrot.
>the harsh turth about making something independently without big corporate funding is... *sniffle* that you don't have a lot of money... and its hard....yeah we know nigga lolthat's always been the price you pay for getting to make whatever you want
>>153226983Doesn’t the union require LA residence?
>>153223545>have a completely digital workflow>except for the part where you print it on cels You're just adding unnecessary time and expense to your production.
>"indie" creators when they actually have to create for free or peanuts out of love for the medium from the comfort of bumfuck kansas like it's teh epik 00s wild west of winzorz they fondly remember experiencing from within their estranged father's ballsack
>>153227395That's alright but don't whine when you don't get your half hour fluidly animated episodes
>>153227466Not that anon but I'm happy with shorts.Shorts are great.
>>153227312Nah my sister was part of it and she lived in NY
>>153223779A lot of it really boils down to the cost of living being too high for creatives and the industry getting almost entirely offshored decades ago with minimal push back. Doesn't help that the people writing the checks for animated projects hate animation and think it's for retarded children, which American animation largely is now. The only people still left on the American side are giga autists that grew up wanting to be an animator because of Steven Universe and come into the industry buck broken from birth. Pretty much every single person I've spoken to in person the last five or so years that is trying or is actively in animation is ftm with rich parents and non existent taste. It's bleak.>How could indie's adjust their model to be successful?Sell out as much as possible like Glitch is doing. Artistic integrity doesn't matter if you can't make what you want to show to the world in the first place. Most artists are terrible businessmen which is a shame because that's largely how you make it as a young artist now without rich connected parents. Most people going into the industry aren't lucky enough to get noticed by the masses and working in the creative industry is a multidecade long grind that never stops even when you have the talent.
>>153223374You just spat a lot of nonsense that had nothing to do with the topic at hand
>>153223329>people don't want [thing people are fine with, actually]
>>153227802no one is paying for a 5 minute video
>>153226184oh yeah i forgot, Oswald was imagined while he was sleeping through his classes. he did some doodles in his free time and was able to sell the character off to multi-million dollar studios just off chancewhat a lucky guy
>>153227839Direct payment hasn't been the norm in a long time, dude. Ever heard of youtube?
>>153224828>The only indie cartoon I watch anyways is Space KingOmega based
>>153226002its not going to look like that at all because we're not in an economic boom, even if we were in one streaming has done more damage to distribution markets than rental ever could, and westerners aren't even accustomed to buying something like an ovathe market isn't just there, it was never there. at least in the west
>>153221492Considering animation has mostly been free on the web for the past 25 or so years that might be a big ask. Although I remember the webcomic Drowtales had a pay to read thing way back in the early 2000s and I think they're still around, so maybe it could work but then again I don't know anyone else else who remembers/knows of Drowtales.
>>153220998>guy does bit pieces of freelance work>thinks he's entitled to a living wage salary and adoration from the industryIf this guy were in the writer's room every single day, working out scripts for a dozen shows on massive projects that generate tons of profit, I'd understand his point... But this is like saying that it's unfair that you're living paycheck to paycheck while working 2 shifts a week at gamestop.
>>153227895what is this, 2012? animation on youtube is almost always a losing battlenot to mention, youtube just changing monetization has fucked over any animation team overnight for daring to think it was a reliable source of income
Where do you guys expect animation to come from if you aren't willing to pay for it and don't care if the animators are paid?
>>153227958They genuinely expect indie creators and their teams to make studio quality episodes out of pure passion
>>153227980then they cry that only rich nepo babies are the only people left over in the arts
>>153227958Honestly, I'm happy to pay for animation.Hell, I just dropped $30 on a 30 minute OVA just today, there's just not a lot I'm interested in in the current indie scene.
>>153227994congrats outlier
>>153227957so THAT'S why all the most successful indie animators put their content on youtube and make thousands of dollars. Silly me, they must be small fry! Where would I look for the real-deal indie animation venues? What's the normal route for them, anon?also patreon > youtube monetization, it's been that way for over a decade dude. And you're telling me I'm the one stuck in the past?
>>153220998That's every writer though.
>>153228218>why all the most successful indie animators put their content on youtubename 10
>>153228218They make the bulk of their money on merch, retardAdsense pays virtually fuckall outside of the ultra heavy hitters and even then, it isn't enough. Why do you think Glitch shill merch after and during every fucking episode of their shows?
>>153224463I tried that once https://youtu.be/dPULawoKpUU?si=UPaZfpqAxxdvgzrm
>>153227156holy based
>>153223771Very impressive anon, especially the Magnus one. Very gripping
>>153227939artists are freelance because this is what the industry offersvery few artists work outside of subcontracting
>>153220998The only people making money in "indie" animation are the companies.
>>153224498Man that shit is really outdated considering that THERE IS NO MORE INDUSTRY. Its just endless reboots or re-imaginings with so many fucking in-groups that will kick you to the curb til the economy crashes and the boomers who run the industry finally die. Stephen Silver is saying this shit, Seth Kearsley is saying this. Hell I think even Aaron Blaise had a vid talking about it not too long ago, the well is fucking dry and theres already a long ass line waiting for a dropSpeaking as someone who tried(and failed) to get in I always figured that the best bet for new people coming in just making your own shit at this point there are too many guardrails and hoops that new fags have to jump through that its actually fucking easier to make your own fucking project from the ground up. And even if you dont get picked up by like a hypothetical Amazon/Glitch/Netflix/ or whatever you can potentially grow a small enough fanbase and maybe enough of em throw a buck or two to help pay off a bill(plus if nothing else its something on the portfolio that you made on your own terms)
>>153221492>Not even kidding when I say that indie creators need to start charging for their shit. I don't mean merch, I mean pay per viewThats not going to help much because the problem lies with creating content in the first place. Animation is a time-consuming process.
>>153228449Thanks!>>153226212Ur welcome :)
>>153227777Quobs of trooft
>>153223922i mean i have a residence pass so
>>153221922>>153223618sorry NIGGERSkeep coping while I pirate your entire shit.while you don't get a Penny from it
>>153223556YESwith the amount of goyslop and sequel GARBAGE the "industry" has been putting on lately, it would be the marvelous to be alive to see it
>>153226248Toy companies are dying. It's not a screw up, there's no possible relationship.
>>153223779Its something that people expect to get for free. Everyone pirates if they cant. There's no profit to be made except in merch or sponsors (commercials).
>>153229358>this isn't a mental illness
>>153223233>But another likely option is that he's just gatekeeping other writefags out by demoralizing them from working on indies by saying that it aint paying shit, effectively killing the competition in the womb, like how many other types of artists have been doing for the longest timeIt's probably this.
>>153221089>Making 125K with remote on Mondays and FridaysYou better have a wife & kids & own a home if you are working that kind of job, especially if it requires long hours of your time. I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my time as an code monkey wagie unless I had a greater reason to do so. I'm a CS major too, but I quit because I have no gf, no wife, no kids, no home. Currently NEETing cause MeToo ruined whatever chance I had in landing a wife or gf.
>>153221180/a/ Chads keep winning
>>153227156That all looks like utter shit and I don't want to watch any of it at allI barely want to waste time watching TADC for that matter, but at least you can tell the effort that went into it
>>153221180I just setup a PayPal & get a Patreon started so your followers can support you.
>>153223296The sad reality is that you have to make some shit for free to build a portfolio. Your portfolio is what sells. You have to make a short little animation & even build your lore for your characters before you can get greenlit by (((shareholders))) before you get any cash flowing in.
>>153221492Pay gating content never fucking works
>>153223296That's all art ever? How do you think novelists get started? You think they get a salary while they're working on their debut?
>>153223296This has literally always been a thing. It's not new. There are absolutely no guarantees here, all you can do is try
>>153223049You're literally me, except I never job hopped. I really thought job hopping but then I took into account the amount of hours per day. I quit the industry because I couldn't stand working with a woke DEI nigger manager.
>>153223779In the west they're horrendous at merchandising and don't understand how to appeal to anyone older than the age of 12. Look at the figurines for Avatar and compare that to something like Jujutsu Kaisen. However, even so, someone like Bandai Namco who handles all this merchandising also sort of colludes to keep the animation budgets low so they can pour more money into the merchandising (the actual money maker).
>>153230442cont.basically animation is an extremely low margin business, you make it back through using the IP for games/music/toys/etc. For those that are struggling, they cheap out on the animation budget. For those that are thriving... They squeeze the animation budget into more merchandising.And in general the kind of collaborations anime studios have give more opportunities to make money compared to western animation. See the slop anime gachas that makes tens of millions of borderline passive revenue a month.Weirdly enough I think something like Vivziepop and Glitch's style breaks out of the matrix because there's actual merchandising potential with their more original and showy designs, although I don't think they fully capitalize on it. Avatar is a tough case because everything's really dry and "honest" in comparison.
>>153230382>>153230092What weak-willd and fearful people.
>>153230520>>153230520How do you think vivziepop could capitalize on her characters more through merchandise? She already has Hot Topic shirts, pop up parade anime statues, plushes, enamel pins, unless you're talking about licencing the characters to IHOP to make a Hell pancake
>>153223296If the Japanese can get paid for less, so can westerns.
>>153229290That’s actually funny lel
>>153230589A low budget video game, probably some cheap mobile gacha. Higher quality and larger scale figures. Licensing character skins to existing live service money printers and taking a cut (eg PUBG, Fortnite). One off gimmicks sold at a thick premium (eg an alcoholic beverage, drawing tablet, etc). There's stuff they could do, some more viable than others.Meanwhile Avatar is just kinda stuck, you can't really squeeze it for much imo. The story is the hook, the art and surface level aesthetics not at all.
>>153220998... he wrote for TADC? Does he mean those awful little commercials?>>153223516Because it was, at one point, an absolute fact. Even if they are no longer government funded, the studio was still given a leg up by government funding to begin with that other indie studios would not have.
>>153223779I am entitled to free animated content.
>>153231732Why are animationfags like this?They literally just want their cartoons free, made by people that aren't paid, they can't, won't and don't know how to make their own shit, and they barely know how their favorite shows are produced
This is what you get for letting retards like Rebecca Sugar and Alex Hirsh dominate the industry and tank it with their retarded politics.
>>153223779It's crazy NSFW fans are the only people who are willing to pay for animation.
>>153231778Either do it for free or get government money
>>153223779There is a huge issue in the world now, thanks to the internet and the ease of piracy, that people want continous content but they don't want to pay for it. This isn't unique to cartoons, but to manga and TV shows, films, video games and even traditional games. For example, people want 'anti-woke based coomer games' and if they get made, well, they're pirated if possible. Then they complain that they're not made. People want based trad TV shows, then pirate them, then get mad they get cancelled. People want new models for their wargames... Then pirate a STL or if they're really generous, buy a toxic resin recast from China/Hong Kong. Then get mad when the company doesn't produce more models for that faction.They don't seem to understand that companies will follow the money. It's why even shows like TADC clearly didn't have a plot planned for their shows, but just changed the plot as fan reaction came out in order to cater to what people wanted. It's why Ragatha isn't the supportive helpful character any more to Pomni, Kinger is. It's why Jax is basically the protag now muh PTSD depression, when before he was just the non-sequiter asshole. Companies will chase the money. If the money isn't forthcoming then there is no point in doing it. They think companies get money regardless, they don't understand that sales matter. They will then also turn around and go "don't buy it then" to thing they like in its defence or to boycott something they don't like. It works, but they don't see why there is limited content.To top it all off they get mad at shows like Invincible putting out 1hr eps with actual voice actors and then cry about the animation, not understanding most of the budget goes to pay Seth Rogan, not to hire guys to do more animation.>>153223556i mean anime has been doing this for awhile, this season "Is It OK To Lose My Innocence To An Android" is like 12 episodes long but each episode is like 3 mins. It's designed to be consumed on the toilet.
>>153231732>>153231818type of nigga to say “I hate socialism” anyway
>>153221268wait until you find out how the internet is fundedanyway, the point of advertising isn't to endlessly increase your market share, it's to get you a market share whether that means starting from nothing or maintaining what you havejust because you average 30 percent every year for five years doesn't mean your ads aren't doing anything, it means you're staying on top of where you were with no major crap upsif you don't have any marketing and some asshole on tiktok decides to spread shit about your product, what are you gonna do? sue a fucking nobody for your losses? good idea, chump
>>153223556Yes This should be the standard Tired of indie cartoons having 30 min long episodes, nothing but bloat. Old web cartoons had the right ideaJeffery Katzenberg was ahead of the curve
>>153231816It’s actually unreal how even in the midst of AIsloppa NSFW artists still have plenty of people who will actually give them cash (hell you can check graphtreon numbers and see that most of them are doing better than ever), meanwhile witch-hunting “”””””progressive”””””” spergs will try to antagonize people for drawing porn they don’t like while not paying a single penny to people that they supposedly like
>>153231816True.
>>153229358>>153229687I think it's interesting. You know how in Lovecraft the horror comes from humans having their view of the world shattered by reality? Here we have an individual whose sense of identity is shattered by reality. If the story was horror then we would see the individual's slow destruction. If it was inspirational then we would see the individual face his fears, change, and emerge on the other side transcended. But instead the individual (and by extention the people he represents) is told to keep living a lie while we are told to enable him and his likes.>>153231778>They literally just want their cartoons freeGI Joe was free. Transformers were free. Extreme Dinosaurs were free. Eek the Cat was free. Why is it that people should have to pay now for things that used to be free?>made by people that aren't paidYou should get paid. BY YOUR EMPLOYER.>they can't, won't and don't know how to make their own shitIf I can make my own shit then what do I need you for.>and they barely know how their favorite shows are producedYou don't know how guns are made but you have an opinion on them. Same goes for pharmaceuticals and space rockets.
>>153231861>this season "Is It OK To Lose My Innocence To An Android" is like 12 episodes long but each episode is like 3 mins.That was last season, this season's short 3 minute anime is the one about housewives trying to rape little boys that turns into a batshit battle shonen with masturbation-based powerups.
>>153231958Really? Learn something new every day.
>>153231861>people want 'anti-woke based coomer games' and if they get made, well, they're pirated if possible. Then they complain that they're not made. People want based trad TV shows, then pirate them, then get mad they get cancelled.Like?>People want based trad TV shows, then pirate them, then get mad they get cancelledLike?>To top it all off they get mad at shows like Invincible putting out 1hr eps with actual voice actors and then cry about the animation, not understanding most of the budget goes to pay Seth Rogan, not to hire guys to do more animation.Untrue. It is a general complaint on 4chan that famous VAs eat up the budget. You can see it in discussions about Monkey Wrench and about Awkwafina being in movies.
I’ve always wondered why cartoons seem to attract way more low-functioning autism than literally any other medium, this is the only demographic I’ve seen where people genuinely wonder why people (non-Californians) need money to live
>>153232023>Like?Stellar Blade, for one. Plenty of other games came out that were designed purely around cooming/gooning (delete as applicable) and don't do well because nobody gives a shit about the game, they just want the porn. Willing to bet there is more FF7 Remake animation porn than people who actual bought the game.>Like?Taboo was the last one I saw /tv/ getting mad at being cancelled. But there is probably more, I don't go to /tv/ any more.>UntrueIt isn't untrue, because I see people complain about the animation all the time. It's happening in the Invincible thread right now. Even when people who worked on the show went 'yeah it sucks, we only had 4 people for this and 1hr episodes are a fucking deadline nightmare at the best of times' it is ignored and you just get>OMG THEY DROPPED THE BALL>PNG.gif>OMG LOOK AT X VERSUS Y IT'S SO OVERDon't pretend that every single 'based' thing is bought up and it's just evil companies ignoring them. Look at Warhorse over Kingdom Come, first game was le based trad anti-sjw developer from slav land (yes Hungary but geographical retards) and then the 2nd one comes out and allows you to have a gay relationship if you click 'yes I want to suck cock' 20 times over the course of like an hour in dialogue options and /v/ has a fucking meltdown trying to boycott it. Now you're gonna go>well see the company sold on X and then made Y so that's why it's badNo, it's a very small part of a game that gives people the justification to pirate it. This>Oh I'll buy it if it's goodThing rarely follows through and if it does it's on sale, so it doesn't really matter. Don't pretend that people don't look for any reason to justify piracy.It is all completely immaterial to my point; companies follow the money and if people don't pay for the product then it doesn't get made, because there is no point. Starfleet Academy got canned because only 400,000 people watched it, total.
>>153232064Make money then.
>>153231861>For example, people want 'anti-woke based coomer games' and if they get made, well, they're pirated if possible. Then they complain that they're not made.That's probably the worst example you could have used, porn games and super horny games made by single-dev giga-autists probably get bought the most consistently compared to other indie mediums because paid digital distribution for gaming is lightyears ahead of almost anything else, and thus it's much more feasible to "make it" in indie gaming than in something like animation or modern music.Pic related is a game made by a horny Japanese weirdo who spends his time drawing /ss/ porn and guro in between developing his weird 90s throwback shooter games with lots of violence and incest and it's sold over 100k copies in a little over a year.That translates to probably $600k-$700k in gross profit for a game made almost entirely by a single Japanese developer.
>>153232089>Stellar Blade, for one.Huh?Stellar Blade sold like 4-5 million copies, the hell are you talking about?
>>153232064>this is the only demographic I’ve seen where people genuinely wonder why people (non-Californians) need money to live
>>153231949>Why is it that people should have to pay now for things that used to be free?Because people don't want "their taxes" to go to things like cartoons and local broadcast TV that they're not even watching.Basic cable IS still free, all you need is an antenna. People just don't care because in their minds TV is for old people.
>>153232089Stellar Blade did well though. And the FF7 remake also didn't flop.>Taboo was the last one I saw /tv/ getting mad at being cancelled. But there is probably more, I don't go to /tv/ any moreNever heard of it so I can't agree or disagree. Maybe it was cancelled because people didn't know it existed due to lack of marketing?>It isn't untrue, because I see people complain about the animation all the timePeople can complain about more than one thing at the time. They rightly complain about budget mismanagement and about animation.>Even when people who worked on the show went 'yeah it sucks, we only had 4 people for this and 1hr episodes are a fucking deadline nightmare at the best of times' it is ignored and you just getI'd like a link to that. But if it is true then yes, the companies should hire and pay more people who actually do work.I don't understand your grievance. Do you expect me to put my hand in my pocket and directly give you money for drawing for a company?
So you are saying corporate animation is not sustainable for how expensive it is, and then Indy animation is not sustainable because they can't make money.So there is no future for animation
>>153232177Afaik canadians and australians don't mind their tax money paying for their animation. I am not american but if my taxes went to funding stuff like Steven Universe, I would want everyone involved flayed.Was Sunbow subsidized by the state?
>>153232194There's really no business model to sustain it. People just want free shit
>>153228453There was never going to be full-time work for a guy whose only contribution would be adding his two cents to the lyrics or lines someone else wrote.
>>153223779Back in the day people did animations for fun and as a shitpost aura. But today's economy can't afford that so now people do it for money only, on top of the fact thay these people are unhirable in the eyes of corporations. This is the entire reason why Indie is now being pushed. Both for videogames and animations.
>>153231861>They don't seem to understand that companies will follow the money. It's why even shows like TADC clearly didn't have a plot planned for their shows, but just changed the plot as fan reaction came out in order to cater to what people wanted. It's why Ragatha isn't the supportive helpful character any more to Pomni, Kinger is. It's why Jax is basically the protag now muh PTSD depression, when before he was just the non-sequiter asshole. Companies will chase the money. If the money isn't forthcoming then there is no point in doing it. They think companies get money regardless, they don't understand that sales matter. They will then also turn around and go "don't buy it then" to thing they like in its defence or to boycott something they don't like. It works, but they don't see why there is limited content.Fandoms were just shareholders the whole time?
>TADCHe literally just helped write some lyrics to one song>LackadaisyHe wrote on a few episodes from 2023-2024>HazbinOne episode in 2019He's living paycheque to paycheque because he's barely fucking working, what does he expect?Though maybe he's not complaining so much as just offering a reality check, I guess these kind of people have a lot of enthusiastic young fans who think their cringe OCs will be cultural icons some day.
>>153223779One problem is that they're putting it on Youtube. The second, is that nearly everyone (outside of like, fucking Japan and France) does not want to pay for cartoons (or media, for that matter) in any shape or form.Combined, you now have an audience that only wants it for free, and thus indie animations have to survive off of youtube ad scraps and merchandising.
>>153232403>(outside of like, fucking Japan and France) The recent Toby Fox drama makes me wonder which international languages/countries are actually the most profitable for translating into
>>153232104Ironically, the closest we got to animation digital distribution that people actually paid for was also Steam, for that short period of time where they sold videos on Steam, mostly anime.
>>153232403What's crazy is that only two decades ago, people were fine with buying DVDs to the point where sales could save shows and movies from completely flopping
>>153221492Probably wouldn't work although what they could do is sell drm free master files of the episodes once a season completes with bonus shit like animatics and production art. Some animators like Speedo and Flashgitz do this through their patreon
>>153232064Most people watch cartoons when they're children with no concept of the fact that cartoons are made through the intense efforts of a lot of people, or the fact that those people need to pay billsSome people never outgrow this level of understanding of the world, and a disproportionate amount of those people continue to watch cartoonstl;dr manchildren
>>153232442I think the Americas are only profitable through pure quantity. Even if a large portion of them pirate, the amount that paid would dwarf most other countries.>>153232462I could always blame covid, but I'm pretty sure the weird belief that TV (and their parents' Netflix subscription) were free is what lead to this
>>153220998If you work for someone, you're still a cog. Be it legacy media or indie streaming, you have a boss.The promise of indie animation isn't to make everyone at every level rich. It's for creators to control their IP and work without the significant overhead and filters of legacy gatekeepers.Money flows up. It always has, it always will.
If I was an ((exec)) I would hate the indie movement and hire bots to muddy the water and discourage it as a viable option for creativesIts not even the money loss id be assblasted about (im way richer than you) its the loss of cultural control and access to young fresh talent
>>153232442>he recent Toby Fox dramaqrd?
>>153232916Artists not realizing they need to go out and make their own money until after they become artists is a concept as old as recorded history. You don't need shadowy execs running pysops from the background for that.
>>153221089Honestly, it was the exact same way with my parents. I remember bitching at them, but God they were right.
>>153233081Turns out he's gay
>>153233093Let's not pretend that most in the animation community aren't molded by the norms of animation corporate Making indie animation succeed involves unraveling those norms like “on-model = good” or toon normies will come to their projects saying the same things executives would
>>153221109>I still don't understand the mindset behind people who thought indie animation could replace thousands of industry jobs.I don't think that was ever the idea.I think most of the fandom, without explicitly stating it or even realizing it, is seeking more efficiency. We all want content made for us. We all want things to be more cost effective. That means we cut out centralized control over content, which is what legacy media does, and we cut out as much of the overhead costs and management layers as possible. We want our money to go exactly where we want it, without subsidizing anything else or the "losers".Higher efficiency without increasing the customer base inevitably leads to fewer jobs. If anything, I find the expectation that the industry should remain a certain size to be completely frivolous. You are supporting the idea of bloat. Would you go to a farm and tell them to ditch their machines, just so they'd have to increase their workforce by 100-fold like the old days?It's up to people who want to do animation to create good compelling product and grow the market. The free market will organically determine how many jobs there should be.
>>153224003Brad Neely's Super Deluxe shorts before becoming Chila I'll were perfectly fine. I actually can't animate 2d and was thinking of aping off this style, basically just making a storyboard and polishing it, adding a few frames here or there for simple movement.
The idea that zoomers don't want animators to have a living wage because they pirate everything and expect everything for free is a gross misinterpretation and it's not helping the discussion one bit.The fact is people are conditioned to never directly pay for their televised content. And that's not a zoomer thing, that's literally how it always worked. You would buy a TV, pay for a network service, or in modern times a streaming app and you'd have access to the content within. Nobody has ever been expected to individually pay for every episode of every season of every show as they come. That's ridiculous, and the animation industry certainly won't survive on such a model.>but PPVSure, things like pay-per-view existed (and still exist), but they were not the norm and traditionally were mainly meant for live sport events or a glorified parental control for pornographic content.>but DVDswere a means to watch a complete show or season at one's leisure, which is obsolete in the age of streaming.For all my ranting though, I really don't know what can be done without that sweet, sweet ad money to subsidize everything.I think the only possible solution at this point would be for governments to fund and subsidize animation themselves purely for it's own sake. Good luck with that, though.
>>153233468>dude haha tv shows were FREE!>bombarded eyeballs and ears with a ludicrous amount of advertisement training you to buy products>surround yourself with products from the tv shows and movies, even ones as tasteless as funko pops cuz you gotta consume>But FREE hahaA deal as good as a drug dealer’s. I would much rather pay $1 per episode and get back to living my life
>>153222056Why the fuck would I bankroll someone who is being paid by Amazon and already has two more confirmed seasons for their passion project?
>>153233468Fair point. If I pay a flat sum for cable, it's no wonder I see ads as extra bullshit packaged in. Ads before had much simpler telemetrics to see its application or usage rate, back then you either printed an ad in the paper or used test audiences to approximate the population tuning in through a sample size. Ads are trying to become more effective but its to the point they are breaching our personal privacy, so I am at war against them. Without ads, what's sponsoring the content? The ISPs and cable providers certainly aren't. Lewis Lovehog aka Linkara aka the Light Bringer may be a hack who throws stones from glass houses but he's right about one thing, he needs those ads to continue to fund his content.
>>153220998>I wrote for TADCNo you didn't, Goose wrote it, you lying nigger.
How is this different from industry animations?
>>153221180Why do you think every Glitch show promotes their merchandise at the end of the episode?https://youtu.be/BNVCnO1D0HU?t=45
>>153231958There's usually 2-6 of the 3 minute animes each season. It's actually a good argument for doing this because some of them are really good and if they garner a fan base they can usually afford to do longer content. Kind of like how Genndywars started as 2 minute shorts and after it hit really popular it eventually grew to 30 minutes episodes. Really, all of these complaints are things that have been done before, worked, and people enjoyed. The real problem is truly the animators want to be millionaire Hollywood celebrities.
>>153221492I have and idea.Why don't indie devs hide their animation in a video game? Like giving pills to a dog by wrapping it in cheese.
>>153233920It worked for Smiling Friends.
>>153233081Browns found out they are lower class than the Japanese.
>>153232064> people genuinely wonder why people need money to liveI think it's because it's almost always people who make $100k+ a year yelling at people who make $40k that they should give them more money and when they say no start screeching they live in "abject poverty" & are "a literal slave" when the other people work a job they don't like & are doing fine with less than half the money. It's really the dissonance between California & everywhere else clashing. Californians are used to complaining until they get their way & grow hyperbolic until they do & have a lifestyle/values that are opposite the rest of the country. For example: in most of the country the idea of working overtime is sort of a given & the idea of getting cosmetic surgery is a ridiculous frivolity you only see on TV. Conversely in California the idea of working overtime will be treated as ridiculous because: "they got me fucked up!" and you NEED to go to latest party to network. Whereas if you talk about getting any kind of cosmetic surgery everyone says: "Period! Get that bag, sis. Youre investing in yourself and your future!" Another would be during COVID when they took masking away. Everywhere else did it in like 2021 very quickly with little fanfare because obviously it was temporary, dumb, and everyone wanted it gone. In California there are still people to this day wearing masks outside and throwing a fit about events not requiring masks and when you point out that no one has masked for multiple years and nothing happened they screech: "NO THEY HAVEN'T! You're LITERALLY advocating for EUGENICS!" To everyone else, they just see people who make $50/hr or more to draw silly pictures whining they want more money, so their first instinct is: "you make enough money." followed by: "if you don't like it that much move somewhere else or get a different job." and the California people throw a fit going: "No, no, no! I WANT to do this, I WANT to live here, and I WANT MORE MONEY!"
>>153234040Given the shit that happened with that yaoi manga creator recently where she was being harrassed by Latinxes on twatter, that makes sense.Every Hispanic country needs to follow in Brazil's footsteps and ban twatter and require their population to submit to age verification, and also please god let them block this site on an ISP level, even the annoying autists here are mostly Hispanic these days.
>>153233081The summary is basically>Toby announces a world concert for Undertale>People notice there are no plans for South America>People start to make jokes about it, but then the discourse moves into how there’s only an English and Japanese translation for his games>He makes a statement (on bluesky) that he doesn’t translate into other languages because he doesn’t speak said languages, i.e. an autist wanting proper creative control>South Americans fucking explode with hysterical asspain, basically going full nationalist and putting Spanish on a higher pedestal than every other language
>>153233920There was actually unironically a game recently released that was just fake alternate universe television. The only gameplay was switching channels. I honestly think you could get people to buy indie animation as a game with the slightest artsy packaging. Guilty gear stive had a four hour movie as it's "story mode". I think there might be something here.
>>153232273there's not even full-time work for someone who's job is to do key frames, concept art, or background illustrations
>>153234270why are spics like this you don't see frogs this butthurt > she was being harrassed by Latinxes on twatter,why?
>>153231247Avatar would just be grounds for an 'Avatar Land' themepark.
>>153223245Indie has been completely gaped for over a decade and is pretty much entirely vibes-based now, primarily directed towards works made by (Internet) celebrities and funded by multi-million/billion dollar companies. >I LOVE INDIE MEDIA but I would NEVER EVER support a small independent creator
>>153234270To be fair, Spanish isn't exactly niche compared to something like Japanese.
>>153235234I assure you, there are more worth while reasons to learn Japanese than Spanish.We only learned it in school because Mexicans, if given the choice Schools would change it to Hindi in a heartbeat.
>>153234567>> she was being harrassed by Latinxes on twatter,>why?IIRC it's latinx Gen Z gender queer faggots upset because some gay yaoi high school manga has one of the schoolkids lusting after an adult teacher.They harassed her and spammed her with DMs telling her to kill herself and calling her a pedo, so she just deleted her twatter account.And as you can guess, they were the exact same autistic Hispanics you see here on /co/ obsessing over TADC since most of the people into that show are gay brown teenagers.
>>153235285>there are more worth while reasons to learn Japanese than Spanish.I'm assuming you're not just some racist/have some personal hatred against Spanish and are talking practically.There are plenty of countries that speak Spanish all over the world, compared to Japanese, which is only really useful in Japan and perhaps some parts of Brazil.I'm talking for use in business/productivity, not just playing games or reading eroges.
>>153224355>should we really assume that everyone with money issues is just bad with money?Given how 99% of the times this is the case, uh, yes?>>153224492Then everybody has money issues anon. So your point is retarded.
>>153235355See, this is the same faulty reasoning that's resulted in this woke nonsense where you're just looking at our population numbers and deciding: "all of those people are untapped customers who fanatically wish to purchase my product." Instead of asking: "who are the people who are vocally interested in my product?"If you look at: "people who consume animation, comics, and video games" you'll see the two largest demographics are: English and Japanese speakers. Not only that, but these two demographics also produce the most content for these media platforms, go above and beyond to consume the content each other create whether they have the ability to independently translate it or have to just go in blind hoping they pick up some of it, and also produce the most fan content and host the alrgest conventions based around a shared interest in tbese matters. Most anyone would see this and go: "oh, those people are uniquely interested in this topic and willing to invest time, money, and effort into it." and so would gear anything they made towards them and market to them in particular. Conversely, you're looking at sheet population numbers, and even if there's only a small number of people interested in it in those areas and they have less money to spend overall you're going: "more people = more money." and assuming you can convert them into consumers of your product. When this doesn't work it evolved into thinking the people who do want it must somehow be scaring them off so you go to great lengths to drive off the people who would actually buy it in the hopes tbst once they're all gone all of these people who aren't interested in it will suddenly become interested in it and then you'll make money, but unfortunately thats not how it works. You need to target your target demographic.
>>153235573It's like when I got into tea. There's a lot of companies selling high quality tea but most don't import to the USA because most people in America don't drink tea, and if they do they aren't willing to spend a lot on it. We'll just drink a $1 pack of Bigelow or not drink any at all. The companies all say: "For some reason, Americans just don't really care about tea and aren't willing to spend a lot on it, so it's not a worthwhile endeavor trying to sell it to them." Similarly, when I was in school they sent a woman to our class to do a demonstration about chemistry and said we could sign up for a COMPLETLEY FREE summer camp where we would spend a month being taught by a real chemist doing experiments and if we stuck with it we could meet top scientists from Ivy League programs and get scholarships to prestigious colleges. Literally every single boy in class wanted to sign up be they deliquint, jock, nerd, etc. There was truly a moment where all our demographic differences melted away and we were one in a shared passion for chemistry. Only there was a catch: the program was only for girls. When we asked why and if they were going to be doing a program for boys the woman got a weird look and said: "No, when we talk about beakers and chemicals boys always get excited and want to learn more, but for some reason girls just aren't interested in chemistry so we need to do things like this to make them." She then looked around and asked all the girls if any of them wanted to sign up and none of them did despite multiple attempts at prodding them to do so, so she left, dejected. Imagine if all that time and effort was spent recruiting people actually interested in and willing to do it instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole. All of the minds that could've been fast tracked and scientific breakthroughs that could have already happened instead of rejecting human nature because a vocal group want everyone to think it's inherently "unfair."
>>153223771Damn, nice work.
>>153223779Why would I ever pay for cartoons. The quality is all over the place. I have no way of knowing if something is going to be shit because trannies spend all day astroturfing their favorite shows. Reviews are unreliable, production is erratic, and it's usually easier and better to just pirate everything anyway (this is especially true for anime).
>>153235751Just do what I do and pirate, then buy direct from the creators if you like it.If there's no way to buy directly from them and ensure that your money is going to the creators, then don't bother.
>>153221089If you're happy and enjoy CS, good for you. And honestly with art school in particular, your parents were probably correct. Personally, the pure capitalist dancing monkey framing, for lack of a better phrase, is beyond stupid and many people I've talked to ostensibly get rocked after blindly doctorlawyerengineering. Many others end up technically successful but ultimately very dim figures who have nothing new to say or do in particular and can sometimes be fuckups on a different scale.From everything I've seen honestly, if you have done the research on market specifics and industry politik, and are actively building relationships, most things can work with time and grit (being very active, making things, attending events, publishing work/research, joining groups, using your brain/hand and interrogating things you don't know, getting into side programs and internships...)Even attending university in and of itself can be reduced to an institutional power move.>t. cs/physics student autist who has fought immigrant parents on this
>>153221087I came here just to say this. You don't create to make money, you create because it's fun.
>>153236273uhhhh what are you talking about? if you're not doing something for immediate and narrow financial interests driven by arbitrarily set social imperatives, what's the point lmao. are you perhaps "low iq"?i used to enjoy making music and cooking. i loved the feeling of conveying something deep within me or just making people happy to be alive through sound alone, and slowly making cool, tasty, healthy meals for myself respectively. now i'm a finance chad and only eat white castle for the sake of the grind
>>153235573Anime and games are huge in Spanish speaking countries, though?Its a massive demographic to just ignore. Now it'd be one thing to focus on just English, but a small country like Japan (Do you think its a coincidence why many Japanese creators target westerners) over Mandarain, Spanish, and French is clear favoritism.
>>153236515Bro, most of LatAm is poorfags, they're not exactly a worthwhile demo, and the ones that are already speak English anyways.
>>153236515ad payouts for japanese viewers are the highest on Youtube
>>153221876>The indie scene's future is probably going to look like the OVA market of the 80s and 90sPeople have been saying this since the 00's and it still has yet to fucking happen. Yet its happened with vidya massively with xbox live wiishop psn allowing small companies to sell their games for 5-30$..Fuck to the point that giving a game away for free. But charging money just for skins will make game studios bank. Not even needing to resort to gambling mechanics trying to get people addicted to your game. Its bullshit how when it comes to animation&comics/manga people dont want to spend a dime unless its some shitty monthly sub service. I mean fuck most people refuse to pay the 10-20$ a month for youtube YouTube Premium so its ad free and you're able to give part of that money to a single channel along with all the other shit that comes with premium. Then the whole thing of being able to give/donate wtv to youtube channels or a single video where it shows in your comment you gave X amount of money in X currency which is cool. Yeah sure there is patreon but they have proven to be cunts randomly shutting down accounts and having to use yet another system is just retarded slowly everything bites away at your income before it even makes it to your bank account and you pay taxes. Youtube really needs to change who gets what for adrev all the slop blog channels should get the lowest amount. Stuff like animation should be given the highest amount of adrev because its qaulity content. Yet its the fucking opposite youtube promotes garbage barely above AI slop. Go figure the jeet CEO would be enabling this shit plus with how much they wont stop shilling shorts and worse of all your search bar is still filled with reaction "content" truly worse of all the OC video that people are reacting to is like the 5th-10th result of a search.
>>153236515It looks to be 1/7 the size of the U.S.A. market and 1/16 the Japanese market:https://www.grandviewresearch.com/horizon/outlook/anime-market/mexico
>>153236515You’re not wrong in a technical sense, but what I’ve learned from the SNK (King of Fighters) fandom is that it’s because they pirate the shit out of everything
>>153220998So this guy spends maybe a couple hours writing scene description, actions, and dialogue. And complains about the pay. A-yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yipOoma ooma ooma Get a job
>>153236515Small new companies have to show favoritism.Mental exercise. Do you think it's easier to get 10 people to pay you $1000 for a new product, or 10000 people to pay you $1? New companies that do not have the economy of scale will always choose the first option, because the one thing they can control easily is margin.US and Japan are higher margin markets. This is not to say you're not important, or that you aren't entitled to your frustration at the situation. It just is what it is. Companies need to spend money to make money, so they have to maximize their ROI early on. Once they build up a war chest and feel safe, then they have the luxury to go after more markets.
>>153237096Anon, those are the biggest languages in the world and Undertale is over 10 years old and massively popular.I don't actually care but yea it is kind of bullshit from an outsider's perspective.
the reality is that everyone is getting poorer and that means less money to spend on frivolous garbage like the latest capeshit movie or chinese cartoons
>>153231909>paying for aisloplol
he does it for pay; that is to sayhe does it for free
>>153238336>i share all the woke opinions but I don’t care about themTypical zoomer, wants to fit in with every side but ends up just an annoying loser
>>153220998I mean the nature of indie animation is it's sporadic, the only one really making real money are probably the creators who get to keep all the IP and merch money. But you also have to consider that even writers for network/streaming shows live paycheck to paycheck such is the nature of freelance work. You need serious backing if you want a salaried animation studio with full-time staff.
>>153238565Anons need to understand that you can't just fit everyone in a dumbass box my god. Some "woke" things I agree with. I don't think they/them shit is real.
>>153223556We haven't had anything worthwhile in 15 years.I've had to live with old stuff for that long. I can do it for the rest of my life too.
>>153223779Because it's ultimately not a necessity.It's a thing people like to have, but they're not very willing to pay for.The cheeper they can get it, the better, and when it comes down to it, they'd rather not have it at all, than pay any sort of real price for it.And if people aren't willing to pay for it, neither are companies.
>>153238336>those are the biggest languages in the world and Undertale is over 10 years oldI wasn't speaking specifically of the Undertale situation. But in regards to that, this is part of the tradeoff of independent/creator owned productions. When you own something and you have no shareholders to answer to, you can do whatever you want. You can also choose not to do whatever you want. That's the flipside people don't think about. A greedy corporation would not pass up an opportunity to further monetize their property. In fact, not doing so would be grounds for shareholders to sue.The right not to release more localizations is derived from the same creative independence that made the game possible in the first place. You have to take the bad with the good.
>>153237092He didn't even write that. He wrote a couple songs and lives in Burbank
>>153220998He lives in a way overpriced city
>>153221180You can blame the fans but I also think it’s just an indie artist skill issue and inability to work well with constraints. Pumping more money into something doesn’t always make it better product. >High quality animationAppealing animation. This can be achieved with rigs or even static images. Not everything needs to be hand drawn sakuga. >High quality writingCompetent writing. Not writing with overly complex lore that shoots itself in the foot trying to be the next Bojack Horseman>11-30 min runtimesThis is the tiktok generation. You can definitely get away with a short runtime. >Released consistentlyDeadlines and time constraints are a part of the working world. Even then, we’ve seen fandoms will wait years for content if it’s worth the wait. >For free on YouTubeYou can’t paywall visual media. Use ads, merch, etc. >While they shouldn't expect to make a living and just work on the sidePeople need money to survive. Welcome to being an adult
>>153241946>indie animation created in the same place as industry animation genius
>>153238445ThisThe truth is most of the audience does not have the means you take for granted and is going to ignore appeals to replace Hollywood’s financial support for creatives as delusional entitlement.
>>153236762It's weird how no one grasps how the 80s OVA market only came about to the new and novel home theater market that had people purchasing VHS copies of new things that were not available anywhere else in theaters or tv. Americans are usually less inclined to buy a direct to home theater release and that was usually left to the extremely low quality crap that was considered not good enough to be released in theaters since it never sold well. Japanese did not have that same hangup and would buy a direct release VHS if something. So their OVA released had a huge spectrum of quality.
>>153236341>>153236273This is such a retarded point you parrot. Everyone wishes they could create for no cost but time costs money. No wants to NEED money but everyone does.
>>153236273>You don't create to make money, you create because it's funYou can create all kinds of things for fun. But doing something well requires a level of dedication, an investment of time and energy. That's why there is a professional class. We all benefit when someone is able to do what they're good at. Their output is in theory going to be better than ours, and done at greater efficiency, so that we all can enjoy each other's productivity at a lower cost than if we were all doing things ourselves.To be clear, I am defending the concept of having a professional class. I am not defending animators or this particular writer.
>>153236273this kind of thinking is the reason why only rich kids and people to mentally ill for real work are stereotyped to be artists a healthy industry cannot function if these are the only people allowed to createall artists throughout history did it as job and no one actually gives that much of a shit about the guy who made art on the free time, every artist in the situation wants to "make it" so they can do art full time
Here's a video explaining why indie animation won't get better:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2kwu6sfuTc
>>153243603>no one actually gives that much of a shit about the guy who made art on the free timeYou were right till this but arguably the most famous artist of all time sold a single painting in his entire career. Van Gough is the archetypal starving artist.
>>153243816Van Gogh also only became known after his death.People don't care about the artist who make his art in his free time.People care about the artist who never made anything of note before he died, and only became famous because it had a sad story attached.No one would have known about him had he not lived a sad life, because that sad life was exactly what his brother used to promote his work after death.
>>153240765I mean of course. He's free to do whatever he wants, since he did it already. Nobody is going to take anything away form him.But people are also free to point out that discrepancy all they want.
>>153236515>Anime and games are huge in Spanish speaking countries, though?Anon only dragon ball z , saint seiya and naruto are popular there the rest of the other animes are not.
>>153244276Its not the 2000s anymore. It's also not the 2010s.Kimetsu no Yaiba, Jujutsu Kaisen, Attack on Titan, and My Hero are popular all over the world with various dubs all over.
>>153221682>If animation isn't paying I don't see how we'll keep getting stuff like GlitchNo one ever talks about how Glitch only exists because they were living off of Australian grants. Them stumbling into TADC was huge and aggressively merchandising it is the only thing keeping the lights on. Lackadaisy, Gaslight and Guinevere will never pull these numbers again and I fully expect Glitch to either fold or majorly restructure before the decade is up because they're green lighting projects that that are going to wind up outside their capabilities OR they're really going to cheap the fuck out with the 2D department.
>>153236221>doctorlawyerengineeringreally? Are they that soul crushing?
>>153230540>weak-willd and fearful people.I'll have you know I was in the industry for 5 years before leaving. Made good money too. However coming home to an empty apartment without a wife or gf is why I left the industry. That plus the woke DEI garbage that upper & middle managers were pushing onto us was getting obnoxious. Then MeToo happened, making my chances in even getting a gf even slimer. I got tired of working for corporate Jews & no modern man shouldn't have to sacrafice his time like that. That's why I took the NEETpill
>>153244489>I fully expect Glitch to either fold or majorly restructure before the decade is upThey're just gonna sell out to a much larger corporation, but claim that they're still fully independent (they're not).It happens all the time. Even in the gaming sphere, most "indie publishers" are owned by some megacorpo in some way.
>>153236515They are the "cream of the crop" of Japanese IPs. That's why they have a global audience. Shonen anime is more or less the "entry-level genre" of anime because it appeals to low IQs, so of course spics & nigs love it. However, most mangas & video games don't even get greenlit into animes, let alone get released to international audience. Many of them fail & even more of them are never seen by international eyes. Westerners do things differently from Japanese, & I don't westerners cartoons/comics competing at the same level as Japs until Jews are removed the western entertainment outlets.
>>153238336If you're looking at Undertale in particular it's because the creator wants to do the transitions himself and speaks two languages for the reasons outlined above >>153235573
>>153244104Yes, so did Kafka and many others. Stieg Larson comes to mind as another example. That's very oar for the course that an artist probably won't be appreciated in their time and is doing it for the love and passion of art. Hollywood has just psyopped everyone into thinking it's supposed to be a lucrative and sustainable career with short term gains. That's almost never been the case and there's a good chance they were just a bubble. Others have shown that it can be possible, but you have to he realistic about it. You cant expect to live on your own in an apartment or house, especially in a big city and make a living off art. You're either going to have to do it as a side gig or plan to move in with family and live below your means so you can afford to create on the side because it's what you're passionate about and what makes you feel fulfilled. Its like people who want to raise horses or are really into cars. They almost never make the money back and its just a massive sink but it's what they like to do and they become known as the car guy or the horse girl that has a lot of fun with their passion project. Heck, the whole concept of monetizing your passion and turning it into a primary income is a novel Hollywood idea thats negatively impacted the art scene. People should plan to be the car guy or the horse girl that bleeds money into something they're passionate and fulfilled by and if they're very fortunate it might grow into something else. Otherwise, it might not. You've got people like Ronnie making Whomp who while he's been consistently doing it for many years I dont believe has ever turned it into a primary income but still does it because that's what hes passionate about, and then youve got people like Tom Siedell and Dan Shive who did start making money off of it but live in a city somewhere that no one's ever heard of living a humble lifestyle below their means and have been able to make ot tbeir primary income. That's all one should ask for
>>153244876Why would you remove the capeshit creator ethnicity tho
Anons need to start accepting that 2D animation is fucking dead. There is no saving this. You are not going to be getting traditional shows anymore. No audience cares about it anymore, no company wants to pay animators, YouTube AdSense doesn't pay.The old times are over. I fully expect channels like CN and Nick to dissolve within the decade, this will lead to an even bigger boom in indie that will also collapse because the internet cannot sustain it. Then large scale 2D animation will die outside of the stray passion project
>>153244623Same. I didn't quite get as far as you did but I had an opportunity to get into IATSE and could've wound up working on Lord of shows and movies and meeting big name celebrities, but I'd probably never get to do my projects and if I did I would t get to them the way I wanted they'd be woke garbage with modern slop cinematography. I'd also probably have never owned a house in CA and wouldve just grinded away 30 years while my friends and family passed away and I only got to see my wife a few hours a day then would finally get to retire and have to move to some flyover and hope I could afford to live off my pension. It just wasn't worth it, especially when I stopped and asked myself: "is there even one piece of media being made nowadays that I could honestly say I'd be proud to have worked on or consider it a fulfilling life experience?" and the answer was "certainly not." Instead I'd rather move back home, buy a house, and get to spend all the time I can with my loved ones and then I'll work on my little art interests on the side in my free time as a recreational hobby. If nothing ever comes from them and I don't even get to do all the things I'd like to have done, oh well, I'll still be fulfilled and happy. Even if I was given the choice between getting to spend time with all the people that matter to me or getting to live in a big mansion in the hills and strutting around Hollywood being the It Girl and getting treated like the Talent whenever I waltz into the studio I'd choose my family every time. The only reason I even took a detour out here was in the hopes I'd make enough money to support them and have even more time with them in the first place while also getting to do what I love, but if that was ever a thing (doubt) it's not anymore. At least not here.
>>153245388In the U.S.A. maybe. Japan, France, Ireland, Korea, Russia are still doing them with a few randos popping up here and there like Iceland.Sirocco and the Kingdom of the Winds, A Greyhound of a Girl, and Le Petit Vampire all came out since the Scamdemic and were all great.
>>153245268>People should plan to be the car guy or the horse girl that bleeds money into something they're passionate and fulfilled by and if they're very fortunate it might grow into something elseYou have no clue how fortunate you have to be to have enough disposable income to be the car or horse guy. Working a job to live while making what they love on the side because it fulfills them is already the norm for the majority of artists.
>>153245388Sounds like an American problem tbqh
The song writer for MLP FIM probably made a lot of money.
>indie studioswhat's the endgame? disney hires you to make the new spider-man cartoon?
>>153220998>meanwhile porn artists literally make an uppper middle class living on fireren cumflation animation sell your soul to the studio and watch them underpay you and throw you away like the housenigger you are.
>>153236221>If you're happy and enjoy CSYou are not supposed to enjoy it, I mean kudos to you if you do, but its not you who is supposed to enjoy your job, its the client. The sooner you get this, the sooner you can actually enjoy your life.>hurrdurrr i want my job to fullfill a personal purpose and give me satisfaction>uhh what do you mean there is no money?????>it would be great if i could work on what I love...you? no sorry, i need a dentist, i need internet, i need a cellphoneLike you literally give a grain of sand compared to what you receive from society and you will dont want to give that grain of sand, you need to enjoy giving that grain of sand. Funniest part? the other way is accused of individualism while "fuck you, you work on what i need, but i work on what i life" is not.
