I just don't like The Dark Knight Returns. I get that at the time it was considered revolutionary or whatever, but reading it now it's just yet another dystopian future comic full of Batwanking, Superman bashing, nonsense plots, poorly thought out social commentary, and cringe dialogue. The art is OK at least, but I personally never thought that Frank Miller was that great, but at least this was from before his artstyle became terrible.
>>153232020>I don't like this because of the later things that tried to poorly ape itHermeneutics is truly dead.Being born in The Archive is a blessing and a curse, you undertand time linearity but are incapable of applying it.
I’m not super fond of it because I prefer Batman more gothic and art deco. As a result there’s a lot of. Batman stuff I don’t care for.
>>153232057no, no, he has a pointyou may well think of the 1960s tv show not as "your batman" but as "batman pre-Miller", but it was a fairly radical departure from the comics in its own way and much more of a celebrity cameos, star-power sold thing than it was a superhero story; it has comedy, it has characterization, it has a ligh tone; compare it to Detective Comics from 1966 and you'll see they're much more action-packed, much more serious despite the comic-book toneOP's belief that Miller's Batman is a poor interpretation is fair, and a criticism of OP that relies on the obviously mistaken belief Miller was doing something new by reinterpreting Batman is nothing short of ad hominem; Miller's version is more thug-like and extreme, but entirely in line with the 1960s Detective Comics versionMiller does that with Daredevil too; he markets his work as gritty and dark and by extension, anything that went before is recast as silly and light; but look at, for example, the pre-Miller history of Karen Page - her father killed himself with radioactive crap rather than turn over his nuclear bomb designs to be used by anybody, that's dark as it comes, but because Daredevil also has fun or smiles in those runs it's not "dark" as far as Miller fans are concerned - so much for hermeneutics; it's only "dark" when Miller turns Page into a junkie/prostitute and kills her for pathos - pretty comic book stuff, simple themes, basic plotting, childish story
>>153232190You're trying to articulate three lines of thought, two of them contradicting another, into single paragraphs. Focus.
>>153232020Hickman's Avengers and Secret Wars saga is boring and feels ultimately pointless. Not helpd by the fact that many characters are very OOC, and Hickman clearly did not give a fuck about most Avengers and just cared about the Illuminati.
>>153232389Hickman in general is kind of overrated. People only liked his Ultimate Spider-Man at first because ZOMG PETER IS MARRIED, but the plot was always boring and Peter always felt like a side-character in his own book. And I hated the "real time" thing, it's not a good way of telling stories.
>>153232020Seconding this
>>153232020This and most of 00's Marvel has aged like milk in the Arizona sun.
>>153232057it's more an issue of something being new at the time doesn't make it good it just makes it easier to impress people with
>>153232190Before Miller (and the overlooked Denny) Daredevil was by and large an absolute goofball and one of the worst offenders in the era of Marvel characters NEVER shutting the fuck up with constant overwrought glibness.
>>153232020I think the following comic books are overrated:>Morrison Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Bat Epic (I enjoy parts of these)>Claremont X-Men and New Mutants (I still like the dynamic art from the Paul Smith era and the crazy art from BWS and Sienkiewicz(NM))>Simonson's Thor (still one of the greatest intros to a comic ever)>52 (early 2000s DC in general)>any Crisis (any event comic)>Annihilation>Johns Green Lantern>Robinson Starman, The Golden Age>Gaiman Sandman (some single-issue stories are great)>Waid Flash, World's Finest, Kingdom Come>O'Neil The Question, Green Lantern/Green Arrow (waste of Neal Adams)>Wolfman Teen Titans>Brubaker Captain America>Millar Ultimates, Red Son>Fraction Hawkeye (shame, I like the Mazzucchelli-inspired art)>Ewing Ultimates, Immortal Hulk, Defenders>Humphries Dial H>Adams Flash>MacKay Moon Knight>Lee/Ditko Spider-Man (Ditko is great)>Lee/Kirby Fantastic Four (Kirby is great)>Ellis The Authority, Transmetropolitan>Annihilation>Silver Surfer: Requiem >Y: The Last Man>The Maxx>The Boys>The Superior Foes of Spider-Man>Sideways>Yang New Super-Man, Batman/Superman>The Wrong Earth>New Ultimate Spider-Man, X-Men, The Ultimates>The Unbelievable Gwenpool>Saga>anything by Brian Michael Bendis>anything by Tom KingI've never read anything by some of the most maligned writers, such as Dan Slott and Tom Taylor, so that's why you don't see them on the list.
>>153233061>Morrison Animal ManI get why this run was so shocking for its time, but Morrison shit the bed with the ending>I'm a comic character and you're my writer?! All my suffering had no point at all and you were just making up shocking bullshit to sell comics?!>Ach Ah'm a fookin scott and Ah wrote yer comic and fucked wit yah because 'umans is fookin dumb fer killan the planet or whatevah ach go home>wow it was all a dream...>[Morrison proceeds to jack off for several more pages about faux-profound bullshit]
>>153232020I think I've just become very sour on pretty much every book that's a CHARACTER REDEFINING MOMENT! It's not that I don't think they're often good or anything it just gets exhausting after a while. You see so many writers trying to leave their marks, do something that changes things in the public conscious forever it just feels like there isn't enough time with the actual character that is being redefined. There just isn't a, for want of a better term, normal run. You know the regular issues. The small adventures. The save the days. The breathers.
>>153232020Anything jeph loeb has written
>>153233061>Waid Flash,>O'Neil The Questionok i feel triggered i love those runs
Literally anything by Brian Azzarello. He's an edgelord like Ennis but without any of the charm and sense of humor.
>>153233194I hate wheel-spinning and filler, but I also hate that titles/characters are written and drawn by more than one creative team. Basically, I dislike both your hated and preferred scenarios. It should really be that a character/property has one great run and that's it. New creative team? New IP.
You don't get it son >>153232389Hickman writes everyone the same true
>>153232020The art and storytelling was very ahead of it's time, that part is still amazing. The story is better than most 80s cape comics of the time but obviously not that amazing. >>153233061I agree with the Wolfman teen Titans and The Question points.
>>153233145It's been a while, but to me it was a weak retread of things from Alan Moore and Bryan Talbot comics. I also didn't like the art. Morrison has done stronger retreads of their work, and those I enjoyed more.>>153233236That's okay. We don't have to like the same things.
>>153232020Everything made by Frank Miller.
>>153233300100 Bullets was good at first when it was basically anthology stories about crime in America where somebody would be given MacGuffin bullets that would let them get away with murder, and what each person chooses to do with this power. Once it became about conspiracy bullshit it lost the plot for me.
>>153233300I'll take Azzarello over Ennis.
>>153234097That's wild. Ennis is a far better writer with much better comics.
>>153234140Not at all. They're both bad and it's close but I'll take Azzarello over him.
>>153234180No, Ennis is easily better, and he's been great a few times.
>>153233061>I know, if I just list all comics people like and say they're overrated, people will think I'm very smart.
>>153234304There are tons of comics that I like, have not read, or aren't acclaimed in any real way that did not make the list.
>>153234220He has never been great.
>>153234304He's just (You) fishing. Doesn't really want to talk in depth why he thinks any of those are overrated and backtracks into "they're good but overrated", doesn't want to list any that he thinks are underrated or aptly rated as some of the best. I don't think he even has the copy pasta ready and just retypes almost the same shit but uses the same image. I hate bot like spammers like this guy or the hulk tard that cries over manga, it just shows that 4chan is not a place for discussion just spamming copy pasta and shilling.
>>153234496Ennis is the only comic book writer to make me belly laugh. I'm sorry you're just an anhedonic faggot.
>>153234524You have the sense of humor or a retarded 13 year old. Sorry.
>>153234545Still better than Slott's "comedy".
>>153232190Miller never marketed the previous work od Batman as more silly or goofy, that was the effect of the Burton's movie. He doesn't hide the influence of Neal Adams and Denny O'neil on Batman Year One and TDKR. The problem was the effect of the Batmanmania rewritting the story and DC marketing his work as a breaking with the past. The contribution of Miller to Batman is the enhance of certain symbols of the character and how people perceive them.
>>153232190>he Dont samefag
>>153232020I enjoy TDKR a lot more if I only read the first two parts.
>>153234522I'm not a bot. Ask me anything.
>>153234524Eh, his dramatic moments are stronger than his comedy.>>153234545You really have to grow up.
>>153234977Attaching that quote to defend Ennis is pure hilarity.
>>153235185Why does all Ennis hate feels weirdly manufactured? It's like "Safe Horny", It's safe to dunk on him.
>>153235262Don't know but he's not a good writer.
>>153233061Damn, I just realized I put Annihilation on there twice.
>>153235307He's a great writer.
>>153235333He's better at "naturalistic" banter than Bendis or BKV. I think because he's inspired by movies and pub conversation and not network TV.
>>153235353Bendis's writing does read like something from Sex and the City.
>>153234893Funny thing is, Miller took a few months for the second half. Byrne alleges that after the first Watchmen issues came in the DC offices, miller felt he had to step his game up and do something more political
>>153234043His 80s work and half of his 90s work is good.
>>153232190None of that gels with OP's half-assed rant.Miller didn't kill Page.
>>153233061How many of these have you actually read? Cause I feel like you are just listing a mix of stuff that generally acclaimed.....agreed on the last two points though as those writers are actually awful even without the OOC writing and continuity disregarding issues.
>>153236106All of them. Some I couldn't finish, some I only got six or so issues deep.
>>153236164So you didn't read all of them then...
>>153236225If you mean every last issue of each of these, no. That would be silly. I completed most of them, but I really shouldn't have.
>>153232020All of them. Comics aren't very good, all things considered.
>>153237018Silence Cartoonfag, you have a dying medium so your opinions are irrelevant.
>>153237060Cartoons are even worse.
>>153235185It's fitting. Adults don't seem to exist on this board except in Ennis-related threads for some reason. Then all of a sudden it's not okay to consume media aimed at younger audiences.
>>153232020>I personally never thought that Frank Miller was that greatthat just means your opinions on comic art aren't worth listening to, he was absurdly talented in his prime
>>153233061Lethally enlightened.However I'll say for 52 that however it's rated I at least appreciate the concept of attempting to do an actual DC comic ongoing rather than just variations of headliners and their hanger ons, though some of the execution was middling, contrived and heavy handed. Much of Booster Gold, the aimless mad science island and the crime bible stuff. All three had interesting premises and pay offs, but the inbetween was not always compelling.Also this is a nitpick considering it doesn't affect the rest of the material in any way but It ending by reassuring us the usual mains were coming back felt equal but opposite whenever there's an attempt to push a new character or team in an established book by having them randomly pop up unrelated to anything and tell everyone, but mostly the reader, they exist and are gonna...do something, so, look out!I always hope publishers save money and cut those pages out for any reprints.
>>153238042You have problems.
>>153237527Oh so you are just a board tourist, that makes your opinion even less relevant.
>>153238061This. DKR isn't my favorite Batman story, but I grow more and more disdainful of people who hate DKR for the most shallow, superficial mid-crit reasons. It usually means to me they don't understand comic storytelling
>>153234304Why are people so surprised by this?Back in the day I could understand being skeptical considering few people read comics, bought or otherwise, but nowadays it's easier than ever to find them with little cost, the flood of superhero media has made it no longer taboo to be interested in them and has even drawn in curious and bored consumers during periods of peaks from movies like Watchmen, TDK, Avengers, Infinity War being released or lulls during lockdown.Lastly and pointedly recommendation lists have obviously narrowed all those audiences towards certain works, so is it really that unbelievable some percentage of them would come away with differing opinions?On the subject of hype and media I've seen plenty cases of it with popular movie lists.I'm not saying the take doesn't come from some lense of contrarianism or a lack of context and comprehension for the works, but the idea every contrarian has just not read or watched whatever they dislike sounds like some No true Scotsman think.Also from the way he isolates the artists from the writers in some cases it's likely the anon doesn't hate popular comics in of themselves, but just wasn't taken by the story and dialogue.
>>153237018This, Comics are Mythology told by the village idiot for village idiots.
>>153238644What a pretentious little twat you are.
>>153238864Ironic, coming from you, you village idiot.
>>153238644What's a shallow, superficial, mid crit reason to dislike it?
>>153238828That's a complete misunderstanding of mythology.comparing Mythology to any current fiction regardless of quality shows a misunderstanding of what mythology was.
>>153238933Stfu, subhuman
>>153239139Grant Morrison disagrees.
>>153232020>>153239155Speaking of Morrison, his X-Men run was the most overrated garbage. Tacticool uniforms, ugly & shit OCs all over the place, drugs, drugs, drugs, it sucked ass. And Quietly's "art" for it was a steaming pile of dogshit. When you can't draw some of the most attractive women in comics like Jean & Emma without them looking like Lovecraftian monstrosities, you're not an artist.
>>153239212Ok, faggot
>>153238933You're embarrassing.
>>153239225Hi Frank, learn to draw your talentless jock wanker.
>>153238562I appreciate what 52 was trying to be, but I didn't enjoy any of it. It doesn't help that it's bookended by Identity Crisis/Infinite Crisis, and Sinestro Corps War. Plenty of people like it, and that's totally fine, but to me, that whole period of DC is a massive pool of vomit.
>>153239253Cope
>>153239212Quitely's great, but people only care about faces.
>>153232020Bone. It's not bad but it got less interesting the longer it went on. Thorn is a thoroughly uninteresting character.
>>153240632Second
>>153238585No, I read comics. I just know they're not so great.
>>153240632Agree with this. Bone book 1 is incredible, 2 is a solidly above-average book, the rest just got lost in the sauce and Smith became preoccupied with writing a srs and deep fantasy story. He lost all the Barks/Pogo vibe that he started out with and that made the comic unique and vital. Fucking tragedy.
