I strongly believe that if Spawn had been written by anyone else, he would not suck fat donkey balls. He's mired by way too much 90s edginess without any thematic payoff. In fact, most of the circumstances surrounding him have no pay-off, including his initially finite mysterious timer. He's a vaguely racist caricature written by a racist who aspires to be progressive.All this makes me really upset because Spawn has the greatest character design to missed potential ratio of any cape.
The live action was surprisingly good for the era.
Underrated game
>>153310565The pixel art captured the only thing Todd McFarlane does well—use the shit out of the color black.
>He's a vaguely racist caricatureHis race is so incidental, it's not even possible for that to be true.
Scorched isn't written by Todd and it sucks.
>>153310574It gets to be that way much later on (and better as a consequence), but in the first 100 or so chapters, the way McFarlane depicts black people (especially his Granny Blake) is very stereotyped. I think (commendably), McFarlane was trying to make a cool black guy but coincidentally made an angry violent black guy who is at times less rational than he ought to be. This is honestly probably a product of the era, as well.
>>153310646Flawed characters can be cool.
>>153310554>the Toddfather >racistGaiman must have a lot of time on his hands this morning
>>153310554Explain how Spawn is in any way racist, with specific examples, or go back where you came from.
>>153310612I don't think Spawn can be saved at this point short of a total reboot written by someone somewhere between Mike Mignola and Phillip Kennedy Johnson.>>153310721I agree, I just think McFarlane did it rather hamfistedly, the way he treats the homeless is also pretty gnarly despite being ostensibly progressive for its time.>>153310748>by a racist who aspires to be progressiveI concede that much of the racist overtones are probably because it was the 90s and progressive things often still look racist in hindsight.>>153310773The character of Al Simmons embodies an unfortunate stereotype, namely he is a profusely angry black man (for whom one of his odd punishments was becoming white, in an interesting exploration of his racial identity). He's being evaluated in his context here, and it's not that bad, but it could be better.
>>153310554Haunt proves otherwise. More than anything else what holds back Spawn is the supernatural angle. Ditch hell for space and the character would have likely remained as big as spiderman.
>>153310554His rogues' gallery is pretty shit, too.
>>153310560Every other scene in that movie induces a sort of hyper-tonal whiplash in me that leaves me feeling like I'm in the early stages of dementia. >Looks like a Power Rangers episode>has action scenes out of an 80's b-movie>costume looks like something from a 2000's marvel movie>the dialogue sounds like it was written by a teenager>anytime leguisamo pops up as violator>the PS1 cgi
>>153310837>Ditch hell for space and the character would have likely remained as big as spiderman.So big anyway?
>>153310869>implying Spawn is anywhere as relevant nowadays as he was in the 90'sEven by the mid 2000's his star had faded considerably. Really his biggest appearances in the last decade were COD and MK. I dont see a single soul discussing the spawnverse.
>>153310837I think that depends on where they wanted to go with the property. Space and sci-fi stuff would make Spawn easier to throw into other stories for comic dollars Obviously, I'd prefer they keep things standalone, and if that's where they wanted to go, supernatural stuff is fine, but if they were gonna worldbuild all this hell stuff, they needed to do much more, much more in advanced. If the reboot him, they could take it either way though.
>>153310857>your post
>>153310864>the dialogue sounds like it was written by a teenagerThis is authentic, but otherwise, I agree. I mean, Spawn is literally McFarlane's middle school invention. It's a tragedy he can't write the character to save his life. The movie was a good bad movie. It's not like we had Sam Raimi making a character piece.
>>153310887>the last decade were COD and MKAs far as I was aware, his last showing was in Soul Calibur. It's bad for Spawn right now. He's propped up by being a nepo-character.
>>153310822>angry black manAnon, assume for the sake of argument that Al was white from birth, or any other race you can think of. Everything else about his life is the same. Would his constant anger suddenly seem warranted to you?
>>153310937Anon, stereotypes are a thing. It's why you can depict a white character whose favorite drink is purple drank, and who loves fried chicken, but if you made that character black it may be seen as insensitive if it's presented in the wrong way. A character like Simmons should be angry, to be sure. Where Spawn fails and falls into caricature is only in McFarlane's inability to write serious drama. Ultimately though, Spawn isn't popular enough to meet this kind of criticism.
>>153310822Todd's just not that great of a writer, anon. I don't think he had anything evil in mind doing this. His storytelling just isn't all there
>>153310975>white character whose favorite drink is purple drank, and who loves fried chickenJust described me perfectly
>>153311074I agree. On the racism scale, he's the autistic white guy who gets invited to the cookout and sometimes says some shit that makes people a little ill at ease. Shit like, "I heard black folks ate seafood boils, but I didn't expect them to be this good!"
>>153310646Al is a jarhead thrown into a world of metaphysics and lofty concepts when he just wants his wife and his face back. He’s angry because his face is ground beef and he realized he was sterile because his wife got knocked up by another man. All that sucks, it’s not just him being black and angry, he’s just pissed in general
>>153311106You're doing great at contextualizing Spawn in a way that Spawn is not contextualized textually. I like Al Simmons, I just wish Todd McFarlane entrusted the character to someone with talent. As things stand, Spawn is only good for farming aura and wielding cartoon-tier guns.
>>153310928That’s because you’re old and have less time for video games, anon, he was in Mortal Kombat and Call of Duty like anon said.
>>153310975I think OP is perpetuating stereotypes more than McFarlane does
>>153310822Al's backstory is pretty much lifted from Frank Castle and other heroes with generic military backgrounds. Pretty much the main reason you remember he's black for the first 100 issues is because his family is black.
>>153311132I mean being angry all the time, slightly confused, and being a wife guy is just how Todd himself is like.He gets drafted into service by Marvelbolgia and wants to escape because he doesn’t like the deal.
>>153311145McFarlane full sent this.
>>153311179He just needed to stick to art so that some other autist could handle the writing.
>>153311132>I just wish Todd McFarlane entrusted the character to someone with talent.He did. He wasn't a main writer from like 2001 to 2021, outside of special issues.And I'm not convinced he's heavily involved with the current issues with his name on it either.
>>153311157Good
>>153311248That's around #112, or when Simmons and Terry start working to kill the dude who was Redeemer once.
>>153310560Seeing human-Spawn get merked by a traitor in the opening of the film was disturbing for my youthful mind at the time.
>>153310975You're right. To fight racism, Al Simmons should be white.
>>153310975>Muh stereotypesWhenever a gruff white man is chronically angry in media, it's called a toxic masculinity power fantasy. All splitting off the "angry black men" from that does is make their race a more defining categorization, reinforcing the idea that white skin is the default. It's an anglocentric label that's more telling of the speaker than the "stereotype" it criticizes.>Spawn isn't popular enough to meet this kind of criticismNice thought-terminating line to try to shut out rebuttal, asswipe.
>>153310822>The character of Al Simmons embodies an unfortunate stereotype, namely he is a profusely angry black manPeople like you are the reason any new diversity hires in comics are boring as absolute fuck. Characters need flaws in order to be interesting but takes like yours prevent any minority character from being anything but perfect, thus bland, thus hated, then you go 'omg why are comic readers so racist???'
>>153311401They tried this with Black Panther.
>>153311601>>153311657They can be stereotypical; they just need to be written well. McFarlane writes a black man the way an autistic man with internalized racism who wants to write a cool writes a black man.
Todd infamously doesn't read. There is that Gary Groth interview where he is like "if isn't on the sports page, it doesn't get read bud". Then Gary asks him if he reads Sports Illustrated and Todd tells him that it has too many words. Then Todd asks Gary "you really think my writing would improve if I read books" and Gary is like "I guarantee it."Anyways, it's pretty obvious that when Todd came up with the initial design for Spawn in middle school, he just ripped off The Prowler from Spider-Man. I'm honestly surprised its not called out more. It was obvious to me as a kid. When Prowler first showed up in Spider-Man TAS, I initially thought it was Spawn.
>>153311863I've still yet to see you support how he's a poorly-written character other than crying "because he's a stereotype!"
>>153311863There is no difference between sufficiently advanced trolling and reddit blacktivism.
>>153312073They're both ripoffs of Deadpool's design.
>>153312108Prowler debuted in comics over 20 years before Deadpool. Also Deadpool was a Deathstroke ripoff.
>>153310554Naw, your just another soulless zoomer.
>>153310857Does he have a rogue's gallery? Because I remember a lot of dudes. I remember a lot of toys. But most of these fucks seemed to die in their first appearance and then never came back.
>>153310857Redeemer is the shit though.
>>153312073No one cares who did something first,just who did it cooler. Prowler looks lame compared to Spawn.
>>153312196The jokeYou
>>153312288Does he needs gift cards?
>>153312246Cope
>>153312073Spawn is a ripoff of his own design for Venom. You are a dummy.
>>153312288Looks cool anyway.>>153312420Kek
>>153312288Such a great design.
>>153310554I have been reading Spawn for the first time recently and ive been enjoying idk what you guys are on about
>>153312409You're not funny nor articulate enough to make jokes..
>>153310554Hello Tranny Smith! Do you like to hang out with Famicom too?
>>153310646>Tranny Smith is just Famicom 2.0 but now rules all over 4chan!Why they even bother to revive this site after the hack, you should just have let it die!
>>153310554I always liked the Dreamcast Spawn game the best.
>>153310560The story is pretty bad, and suffers from 90s "gotta get it all in" writing. It's interesting that ponder at what a trilogy might've looked like. I wouldve done something like >Have him killed by unknown hitman, when he comes back, hitman turns out to be Overt-kill, finds out his boss hired him, rest of the movie plays out similarly (i.e. clown wants him to kill his boss to start ww 3) movie ends with violator fight.>Next movie, fighting the forces of heaven and hell, get the angela ripoff and his boss as the redeemer in there.>Last movie, not sure what the plot would be, but this would end with malbolgia fight and bittersweet ending.The cgi isn't great for the movie, but it hurts that the last 20 minutes are so incredibly awful, the last fight is just stupid and weightless, and it ends on such a wet fart.Also, it was lame they got rid of weird aesthetics for heaven and hell and just made it bog standard "islands on fire in the void," but it was the 90s, whattaya gonna do.
>>153313831That was a compliment
>>153311401>Al Simmons should be white.You know nobody reads Spawn when there was ZERO controversy when Jim Downing took over
>>153315682How long do I have to read for this to happen?
>>153310554Spawn is kino though
>Al gets killed by Jason in the lateish 1980s in some African country while on duty>Al is sent to hell and makes a deal with Malebogia to lead his army and sends him back to Earth>Al has temporary amnesia slowly realizing 5 years had past since his death>He goes to his gave and exhumes his dead body to confirm that he is infact dead>Memories start rushing in, he remembers his past life as he takes the wedding ring off of his corpse's finger etched with "AL & WANDA FOREVER" in the inner part of the ring>Left in distraught, suddenly Malebogia takes control of Al's corpse reminding him of the deal he made with him>Spawn later spends most of time in an alley way while being tormented by the Clown>He later meets Wanda only to be heartbroken by the fact that Wanda is terrified of her deceased husband's new form not believing that he is in fact Al SimmonsSpawn is just a tragic character.
>>153315682There was. People wanted Al back. I thought Jim was interesting but underwhelming compared to Al.>>153310837>Ditch hell for spaceHell is a more fascinating origin and allows for superior aesthetics
>>153310554the only thing i know spawn as is "the guy from soul calibur"
>>153310554>without any thematic payoffWatch the HBO show. It's still one of the few examples I can think of edge being done right, wherein it's not just shock value for its own sake.At his core, Al Simmons is a good man thrown into bad circumstances in a world that resembles the real one more so than most worlds inhabited by superheroes.
>>153316689Not really a "good man" if he knows what he's doing is morally wrong.
>>153316737Shut up, pussy
>>153316737It's debatable whether killing pedophiles is morally wrong (and he didn't actually kill Kincaid in the show as opposed to the comic). What sets Al apart from other hellspawn is that he rebelled against Hell which no evil person would do.
>>153310822Mignola's art is great and all, but I never cared much for his writing. I don't see it jiving well within the more grounded realm of Spawn. Getting someone like Clive Barker on board might be interesting.I know Alan Moore did a few issues of Spawn and on paper that works well, but I haven't read those in a while.
>>153316807Moore comes up with some cool concepts when he wrote Spawn, and I really think he enjoyed writing Violator and coming up with how Angels and Demons would be characterized.His demons are basically working stiffs and the angels are efficient military operatives.
>>153315637>Also, it was lame they got rid of weird aesthetics for heaven and hell and just made it bog standard "islands on fire in the void," but it was the 90s, whattaya gonna do.The original plan was for Spawn's hell to be a dark black room and Malbolgia to be off screen, which almost sounds arthouse. The studios wanted to see Hell, but they had no budget. It's why those scenes look so bad, they're grafted on. The other Hellspawns were made from extra footage they had of a guy in the Spawn suit testing the limits, so he's just dancing around--thats why it looks so fucking weird. They're just gyrating
>>153310646That issue where Spawn briefly restores Granny Blake's vision and made her young always stuck with me. It was nice and I'm not American enough to know (or care) whether they were being stereotyped in any way, but I did enjoy Spawn more than a lot of the comics I used to read when these issues were coming out.I do also like Ennis' Punisher and edgier stuff like that, and I wish Ghost Rider was handled by more competent writers because a lot of the things done in Spawn would've fit Rider as well.
>>153312288>When your logo is just your rivals face crossed outWhat a dick
>>153316963That’s neat.
>>153312260>Does he have a rogue's gallery?Unless they're named violator, Redeemer or Cogliostro then no.Either they end to be killed off and never return (Jason Wyn, Malebolgia), return as weird zombies that he controls (Cy-gor, Overtkill, Freak) or be underused (Mammon, Tony Twist)
>>153318370>Tony TwistCan Todd even use him after he got sued by the real Tony Twist?
>>153311248>He wasn't a main writer from like 2001 to>2021Not really, he wrote a long stretch of the book under a pseudonym which no one called out. He even reached out to Bleeding Cool to reveal it and that was well around Al's suicide.Todd never leaves the book for long. They made a huge splash of getting Paul Jenkins to write the book, but he came back to it around 6 issues in and Todd kept doing his old song and dance even before he left the book. He just doesn't know any better.It's good this thread was made, because in the current run, he literally brought back Malebolgia, who naturally had a bone to pick with Spawn. However, it becomes a free for all, and Malebolgia literally turns into a DEVIL T-REX for no reason. Anyone with half a brain would get it things went full ham, but Todd tries to puff up this happening with flowery narration saying SOME FOES ARE NEVER DEFEATED!!! as if for-all-intents-Satan turning into a dinosaur isn't complete camp.
>>153315682I liked Jim because it was nice to have a Spawn that was using his powers in a smart way like healing people or not having to be forever obsessed over Wanda.
>>153310554>fat donkey balls
>>153319957>Not really, he wrote a long stretch of the book under a pseudonym which no one called out.What kind of neurotic shit is this?
>>153311184I don't see the problem here. She might be an uncomfortable character to you in particular, but stereotypes are rooted in truth, that's why they exist. McFarlane never wrote her or depicted her disrespectfully. Just a kind old fat black woman.
>>153310864I've grown nostalgic for PS1-quality CG in film...
>>153322544>He would sporadically return as the interior artist for intermittent issues, and for a few years wrote it under a pseudonym to generate interest in the book by fostering the illusion that new talent was being brought into the book's production.The name he used was literally Will Carlton.
