I read comic books for several years, but they all suck. Why are they so ba->constant retcons>unfinished series>no main plot>fights without choreography nor strategy>characters use powers in most basic waysOh...
>>153325313If you want to boil it down to one thing, it all comes back to the serial nature. I can't think of another artform that straitjackets itself so. Even soaps kill off leads from time to time.
>>153325313You should try manga.
>>153325313Fake CHADulk posterThe real one will appear tomorrow for the Hulk storytime
We should kill marvel and dc and their respective evil overlords.
>>153325372>You should try manga.I too love garbage endigns and repetitive story arcs
>>153325313enjoy a writers individual run stop trying to read it all looking for a cohesive whole
>>153325440Why? Those are bad things.
>>153325488The chuds told me that sales are more important than quality and that Shonen Jump can do no wrong
>>153325440Yeah, that's why you read comics. You should try manga instead.
>>153325564Weak comeback especially after the shitshow that was Chainsaw Man, literally a worse version of The Maxx ending.
>>153325440>endigns
>>153325609Oh yeah forgot about the cashgrab sequels like DBS and Boruto, can't wait for Bleach hell arc
I understand some of you really hate Japan and weebs but it's really hard to think there's any actual rivalry between western comics and manga
>>153325643
>>153325313>>153325370They should follow my decade model.
>>153325650Who the fuck is talking abot rivalry? I have smoke for the popular mainstream comic too especially mediocrity like Invincible.>>153325663Doesnt really hit since without the US aid Japan would be nothing
>>153325663>Can't make an actual counter argument
>>153325844Not American sorry your weebshit still sucks
>>153325960This is a perfect counter argument here
>>153325825that doesn't count
>>153325825I mean almost nobody cares about comics. People don't go like ''b-but american comics suck!!'' when someone shits on manga.
>>153325650>>153325663kek
>>153325418Grant writing this and Mark Waid existing at the same company is ironic. Perhaps this on a shirt and pic rel should be more popular and known to editors...
>>153325313read indie comics. problem solved.
>>153325564>>153325372Manga fags act like their “medium” (it’s the same medium, it’s just jap comics) are somehow innately superior. They aren’t. While the lack of T&A in Western comics was a big selling point for Manga for a while with the new Marvel Swimsuit comic it seems like they’d reverse that. Truth is that they share many writing problems of the West so, wouldn’t the non-retarded answer be read good comics and manga? Instead of pretending that everything from Japan is golden? Or is that too much nuance?
>>153326323>Mark WaidHoly kek the obsession, Waid has no idea what /co/ is meanwhile you schizos shit talk about him 24/7
>>153325597I wouldn't know because I didn't read more than 2 volumes of CSM because I was tricked into it, but that's considered slop while The Maxx is considered a great comic book and it had a horrible ending. So thanks for proving my point.
>>153326604Same medium but different industries, and yes manga is better.
>>153325313Basically the only redeeming thing about comics is nerd crossover continuity shit. It's kinda crazy how much better manga is with the basics of storytelling and action.
>>153326781You're proving my point by glorifying a shit comic book with a shit ending.
You know what? I think it'd be really fine if gaijins be like ''anime and manga are actually shit and we go our own way''. That's based, but I can tell that's not acually going to happen.I can already tell what's going to happen is, Americans, Koreans, and Chinese will try to steal it from Japan as much as possible while slandering Japan at the same time to justify it .That's honestly depressing.
>>153326753Took you 1 hour and a half to come up with that? Chainsaw is just the latest example of general trend and I doubt you read The Maxx in its entirety
>>153326834If it wasn't for Iron Man 2008, cape comics probably wouldn't exist right now.
>>153326862What do you mean no, you moron? Do you also think Hollywood and Bollywood are the same thing? Retard.
>>153325313American comic books are really good. You just have to ignore anything made past 1979
>>153326855What, you think I live on 4chan and relentlessly refresh threads I've posted in? And that's the best YOU could come up with? 30 minutes just to do the "hurr durr you didn't read it" meme? Grow up.
>>153326901You >>153325418
>>153325370>Even soaps kill off leads from time to timeThat's because the actors playing characters in those soap operas are human and get old and die. In comic books, characters can be immortal if you want them to be.
>>153326908Me neither, but it takes about 1 minute to make a post, it's pretty obvious you spent a lot of time researching what The Maxx ending actually was
>>153325313I'd agree with your criticisms but I'm assuming your counter to those is shounenslop so fuck you and gain taste.
>>153326917>>153326950OK, I'll admit there were some good comics past 1979. I just picked 60s and 70s as the time "American comics were really good" because it was before all the pointless retcons and characters coming back to life etc
>another tr/a/nime seethe threadhow many is that today?
>>153325372>>153326783>>153326907>>153325663Why are you here?
>>153327013unemployed most likely
>>153325418And suddenly I'm on Manchester fucking Blacks side.
>>153326901There are probably less than 25 comics worth reading that were made before 1979.
>>153326604It's not innately superior, it's just that Americans make shittier comics.
>>153327013I read comics. If OP doesn't like what he sees, he should try manga, which I also like.
>>153326984Shonenslop is still better than capeslop.
>>153326918Characters can be spending every panel violently shitting if you want them to be. Do you want them to be?
>>153327013>>153327027he spams these threads every couple of days
>>153326604>a while with the new Marvel Swimsuit comic it seems like they’d reverse thatDid they? A lot of modern capeshit fanservice is pure garbage. The 90s stylized western comics had some good T&A
>>153326288>People don't go like ''b-but american comics suck!!'' when someone shits on manga.Anon...>>153327046This is equally as dumb as the post of the Silver Age anon
>>153325440Tbh there are way more capeslop comics with shit non-ending then there are manga. Even in shonenshit, there are only a few that are never ending while capeslop has tens if not hundreds of characters that are still stuck in a never ending loop. Note that I don't think the same is true for non-capeslop american comics and european comics.
>>153327136I'm sorry you go bothered by the truth.
>>153327117>Anon...He is kind of right. Go on and shit on a manga on a manga forum, it doesn't have to be /a/ and no one will bring western comics since most people don't read them.
>literally steals my image and filenameKek. Still seething.
>>153327187Did Hulk have blonde hair? I don't remember that.
>>153327117>This is equally as dumb as the post of the Silver Age anonI actually tried reading all of the most acclaimed Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age comics. The best stuff started coming out in the 1980s. Many artistic innovations before this, but writing wise? Not very good.
>>153325313The more critically acclaimed comic books I read, the less I like comics. I don't have this problem with manga.
>>153327057To be clear nips also make shitty comics. You just have a higher ratio of shitty comics. Plus, I get second-hand embarrassment when people pretend capeshit is good, please just own that you're dweebs happily consuming garbage. I have equally dumb hobbies but I know full well what I'm doing.
>>153327215It's simply the truth, buck broken friend.
>>153327243Which ones have you read?
>>153325313There are a few good ones, you just have to ignore the majority of them , especially superhero crap. Try Alan Moore's comics. >>153326604I don't think the japanese are superior at writing stuff in general but the manga and comics industry are extremely different. Even comparing shounen with super heroes is weird. The way that the manga industry has been structured has allowed talent to shine and more genres to be explored. The west has some of that as well but it's mostly dominated by 2 companies while japan has so many magazines with different demographics. Even looking at the alt scene, the west doesn't have such a strong doujinshi culture. Just check https://www.comitia.co.jp. I want to see that in the west. Also the writing problems are different since manga and comics have different tropes, structure and paneling philosophies etc. They sometimes intersect when dealing with the same genres. I don't mean to insult comic reader but there is a difference.
>>153327215>This is /co/, motherfuckerYes and I am talking about manga-centered forums. Of course on a comic centric forum(more like digital circus forum nowadays) bringing up manga will lead to it being compared to comics while the same is not true for manga forums.
>>153327281A lot...
>>153325313Hulk would say that considering most of his new comics have been garbage
>>153327281NTA but I have read every comic book, and some of them are pretty good
>>153327133Japan objectively produces more garbage in terms of manga published and cancelled.
>>153327384It's Hulk, all his comics are shit.
>>153327357Could you name a few?
>>153327133Yeah the USA objectively produces more garbage in terms of comics published and cancelled.
>>153327013it's just the usual "muh heckin troonime" bait thread, there'll be another one up in an hours time
>>153325420This, if that fucker likes PKJs run of all things he’ll enjoy comics for the rest of his life I guess
>>153327404Idk, there is way more capeslop than shonenshit that's for sure and if you start counting online comics/webtoons than there is waaaaaaaaaaaay more slop produced in 1 year in the west than in japan. At least you can fap to a doujinshi.
>>153325313There's a fundamental problem with the way the big guys write and produce stories. Editorial wants things a certain way to meet deadlines, crossovers with annual events, and stories that can be used to shill variant covers and they insist on either hiring people who have only read comics (so their writing is inbred as fuck), or shitty YA authors who can barely write at all and have never read a comic in their lives, and both categories fail to produce anything worth the paper it's printed on.
>>153327482He seems to have higher standards for other capeshitters but he likes every hulk garbage
>>153327435>No youLmao, more manga are canceled than comics are published, it's not even about comics vs manga, it's just a matter of basic understanding of the amount of books produced by the Japanese industry, imagine defending an industry you know nothing about.
>>153327418In a sea of shitty characters, Hulk is battling for that number 1 spot of worst capeshit characters.
>>153327404>Japan objectivelyLiterally impossible to prove unless you know japanese. On the western side /co/ used to post all those yearly and monthly thread where outside of 50-60 comics coming the big 2, 1 was maybe decent. It's hard to prove it even for the american side considering the indie scene. Just taking shounen and capes into consideration there are more never-ending cape comics than shounen ones.
>>153327527>Lmao, more manga are canceledby definition those stop being produced while capeshit comics still make new runs for superhero number 54654645654223
>>153326901>American comic books are really good. You just have to ignore anything made past 1979I should have said "You just have to ignore most comics made past 1979".I just wanted the OP to give silver and bronze age comics a chance before disregarding anything non-Japanese
>>153327479>it's muh bait because it makes catrooners seetheLol
>>153327527It's irrelevant, really. Nobody cares how much inferior sausage is made. What matters is what you're putting out that people actually like.
>>153327487You weebs have no idea how many series are released in Japan in a month.>>153327562>by definition those stop being produced No they are replaced by other series that also get immediatly axed
>>153327645>You weebs have no idea how many series are released in Japan in a month.Then post how many get released in a month and then post how many western comics get released in a month. My point still stands, when taking into consideration the most lowbrow shit the west makes way more capeslop than japan does battle shonen garbage.
>>153327581>I should have said "You just have to ignore most comics made past 1979".>I just wanted the OP to give silver and bronze age comics a chance before disregarding anything non-JapaneseI think I've said "anything" cause OP was specifically complaining about retcons and comics published before 1979 are retcon-free for the most part
>>153327424around 30 issues of Claremont's X-Men, Morrison's X-Men run, Frank Miller's Daredevil, Squadron Supreme, Kingdom Come, Marvels, The Thanos mini that leads into Annihilation + Annihilation, Johns Green lantern + Sinestro Corps War (stopped when the Red Lanterns are first introduced, Gotham Central, aroudn 30 issues of Brubaker's Captain America, around 20 issues of Perez Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman The Hiketeia, The Fade Out, My Heroes Have Always Been Junkies , Several issues of Kill or Be Killed, first trade of Manhattan Projects, several issues of Bedlam, 15 or so issues of American Vampire, around 15 issues of Immortal Hulk, 5 issues of We Only Find Them When They're Dead, Preacher, Y The Last man, I Kill Giants, The Maxx, Maus, Blankets, Jimmy Corrigan, Ghost World, Monica, King City, Multiple Warheads, Habitat, several issues of Saga, several issues of Monstress, first two trades of Deadly Class, Tokyo Ghost, first 3 or so issues of Low.I don't know man, a lot. These are all comics I have not enjoyed much or a few were "not bad but meh as fuck"
>>153327686>>153327581>>153326901not op but I get it, i'll try some 70s comics at some point. now relax.>>153327645>>153327645>that also get immediatly axedthen those stop getting produced as well? i don't follow the logic. how many issues does it take for a superhero comic to get cancelled?
>>153327562Kek he just btfo himself with that one. It's fun seeing him sperg out in this thread though.
>>153325313Read non big two stuff. That's it. Find some short tree or so issue comics and enjoy a bunch of those. There's some good ones out there and fun short reads to go through. They may not have the long term investment of logner running things but there is appeal in something that was planned from the start to be short and didn't waste too much time getting to its end. Pick up random stuff you seen on comic sites and jump around. You'll find some shit probably, but you'll also find some good stuff and the time investment for each is so short you won't feel like you wasted too much time. Or just read what a bunch of other people have already told you to read.
>>15332772770s comics are not very good, anon.
>>153327727>how many issues does it take for a superhero comic to get cancelled?No idea, but even if all comics where cancelled right now they still won't compete with the amount being cancelled in Japan in a year
>>153327805>shohenshitters get resentfully mocked on /a/ for their retardation and annoying behaviorI wish that was still the case, but /a/ got overtaken by shonenshit a long time ago. Shonenshit still better than capeshit though.
>>153327732Hmmm no you are just dumb
>>153327807Sounds like a thriving industry of they can cancel so many manga in a year and still sell around 100 million volumes in a year.
>>153327805Shonenshit is as popular on /a/ as indie slop for zoomers like digital circus is on /co/. I have problems with the western comic industry and I am not really a battle shonen reader( I like some boxing shonen manga but Idk if those counts as shonenshit)
>>15332759541% he will
>>153327833Keep seething capecuck.
>>153327851He's an Immortal Hulk fan?
>>153327807ok. i still don’t get why that matters
>>153327841>Sounds like a thriving industry of they can cancel so many mangaSo by this dumb fucking logic none of you morons you should ever criticize hollywood because it makes more money than any other movie industry in the world.Zootopia 2 made more money than the Demon Slayer movie that means Disney is better than anime I guess
>>153327871People use shonenshit for battle shonen in particular but if you say so. The last manga I’ve been reading is seinen so I am still clean.
>>153327851Kek
>>153327873You or the other dumbass claimed that there is more capeslop than shonen slop, which is objectively false.
>>153327805grim
>>153327870Does IH have any tranny shit in it? I remember at least some pages getting posted here
>>153325663>anon be like...
>>153327710Not enough boom boom?
>>153327888I'm not talking about money I'm talking about units sold. And you were the one that brought up canceling and even if we pretend to believe your retarded statement, that still doesn't mean anything if they still have that many series going and selling. Comics on the other hand getting canceled after 5 issues is bad.
>>153327949Yes and Ewing brought in a tranny consultant to help him write a few issues.
>>153327960Boom studios? I only read a few things from them because they mainly do licensed shit.
>>153325663https://desuarchive.org/co/search/image/1Wl9mQPda9sQFiKrDwqMVw/
>>153327929it isn’t though. read>>153327562. counting cancelled series is a dumb logical error. it would actually be good for capeshit comics to cancel a lot of their own shittier series as well
>>153327982Grim.
>>153327968>I'm not talking about money I'm talking about units soldSo money>And you were the one that brought up cancelingPretty good indicator of how much "slop" is being produced>even if we pretend to believe your retarded statement, that still doesn't mean anything if they still have that many series going and selling. Cope
>>153327710I've read most of those and only enjoyed Miller's Daredevil, Maus, and Preacher.
>>153328093>Pretty good indicator of how much "slop" is being producedIf getting canceled means it's slop then shouldn't selling a lot mean it's not slop?
>>153328093Name ten manga that got canceled after 10 or less chapters.
>>153327841>still sell around 100 million volumes in a year.No manga series sells that much in a year more like their entire run and even then it's rare and limited to mainstream lowest common denominator series like JJK
>>153328177I think he was talking about the whole industry
>>153328148Majority of cancelled series are notorious for being cheap imitation of popular series in thar sense they are more "slopish"
For anyone wondering, OP is a seething fag from Death Battle thread who I personally BTFO and now he wants to get back at me. Check the archives if you want.
>>153328296see >>153328162
>>153325313The structure of the comics industry is just simply not designed to create comics at the level demanded by modern audiences.It's a total slop factory. Back in the 50's and 60's this was fine.>"oh you wanna create a girl version of Batman and call her Batgirl? go right ahead, what a fun idea"Audiences today expect masterpieces, but comics produced on a conveyor belt, comics made by committee, these methods just simply don't result in masterpieces.It's like if you were running a chocolate bar company and you put out new products every month, no matter how much you keep doing that, you're never going to get a michelin star, it's just not within the capabilities of such a method.You need to put the reigns of the product into the hands of artistically minded individuals, who have a vision for a story, and let them make that story.No amount of board meetings, market research, or gimmicky promotions is ever going to produce the masterpieces that audiences demand.
>>153328366Stop avatarfagging.
>>153328366Idc about you and op’s fight. There is a lot to criticize about modern comics. They don’t even need to learn from manga, they need to learn from their past.
>>153326918>In comic books, characters can be immortal if you want them to be.My problem is some character age and there's a force at work deaging them, like Charles Xavier, and then there's Peter Parker, who's been a 20 or 30 something for decades.
>>153328420>They don’t even need to learn from manga,Nothing to learn from manga they should take notes from France
>>153328399Masterpieces like Solo Leveling
>>153328394Keep crying BITCH.
>>153328464No. They can’t follow the models present in Japan or France with the loaded history they have. They were decent to good at some point 30-40 years ago and they should go back to that state.
>>153328494>They were decent to good at some point 30-40 years agoThey should give 20 something artists full creative control of their series again
>>153328464France rightfully recognized Japan as the kings. Amerimutts can bitch and moan about it but it won't change reality.
>>153328528Don't they have that at Image?
>>153328399contThere's alot of talk in manga in these threads, but actually you don't even need to look as far afield as manga to find a sane industry to compare to.Look at the regular book publishing industryThe way it operates is very simple>You write a book>You approach a publishing editor>They judge whether your book is a good fit for the publisher, this usually involves some revisions>but ultimately the book remains firmly your creative vision>both parties agree on the content of the book and it gets publishedThis is a sensible method that results in the creation of masterpieces. It puts the creative work into the hands of the writer, the only one with the talent required to produce a masterpiece. The editors job is merely to ensure anything published under their company meets specifications. A children's publisher will reject anything with gore in it, etc.Contrast with how comics work>An editor has an idea for a comic>They hire artists and writers to create it for them>The artists and writers may or may not care about the comic they're making at all, they're just hired employees.Where is the masterpiece factory here? Where is the vision? Some nepo hire editor? Even if they have a vision, they have no means to make it themselves, they have to delegate it to other people, who don't share their vision, the product is immediately diluted.Plus it's a total bottleneck of creativity. Where in the regular books industry you may have thousands upon thousands of people coming in with ideas that they've been working on for literal decades of their life.But a small handful of editors at a comics company coming up with ideas? It's just a terrible mechanism for ideas.
>>153328530France rightfully recognized Japan as the kings.Maybe in prodoction, I know there a lot of weebs in France but comics like Blast are everything manga fans wish Chainsaw Man was but is not
>>153328542Book publishing is controlled by woke women.
>>153325372Oh boy now it's my time to complain about manga!>horny manga with girls nearly or actually naked but the main character always acts like seeing skin is the worst thing ever and tries to cover them up even if they want to fuck>main character is always too humble and respectful and a doormat>villains get entire chapters going over their backstory before they get defeated and immediately redeemed in some way>moralfaggotry from the main character that even superman would think is too good for a lot of villains>a lot of manga is just an adaptation of light novels, even being glorified advertisement for it so you'll get blueballed with an unresolved ending after a dozen chapters>the main character is so brain dead oblivious to the advancements of several love interests you wonder if they forget how to breathe at times>or the main character picks the most boring girl>monster girl ALWAYS transforms into a normal girl with bare minimum added features like horns>lore dumping for several pages in the first few chapters like you're getting ready for a test the next day and the lore is always generic and dumb>if a manga needs to end, no matter how many chapters it gets, it'll end in the most unsatisfying way with barely a resolution>whether it takes place in japan or another world, JAPANESE FOOD IS THE BEST AND EVERYONE LOVES IT LOOK AT HOW MUCH OF THE MANGA IS ABOUT FUCKING FOOD BOY AREN'T YOU HUNGRY also fantasy worlds are european based so of course they have shitty food with no spices they need japanese food baka gaijinI'm sick and tired of these boring, redundant, horny yet sexless, pussy ass doormat character led manga! NOW I WANT FUCKING RAMEN!
>>153328542Immortal Hulk, Kingdome Come, Absolute Batman, Watchmen, All Star Superman and plenty of other series contradict what you are claiming
>>153328557> Blast are everything manga fans wish Chainsaw Man was but is notThat makes 0 sense when they have nothing in common. Blast would be comparable to an seinen introspective manga and even regarding the 2nd part of csm the 1st part was pretty well liked.
>>153328600French weebs mostly read shonen
>>153328583Tbh there is way more capeshit slop than shounen shit>>a lot of manga is just an adaptation of light novels, Come on now less than 5% of manga are adaptations of lns. You could have made better generalizations and baits than that
>>153328587Honestly, as much as I like these comics... they're kinda shit.This is all you've come up with in 80 years? Heaps upon heaps of comics produced, and all you've got is a small handful of titles? I could read all of these in under a month. Is that all the comics industry is worth under this method of editor controlled production?Imagine if the music industry worked like this, and the result was that over 80 years they'd only produced a couple tracks, not enough to even fill a single album. What a pitiful legacy.
>>153328623I’ve been to France and they had the most diverse manga selection if I’ve ever seen in any other european country
>>153328659>they're kinda shit.I can no longer take seriuosly
>>153328587Ih and Absolute batman do not belong in that list.
>>153328668As representatives of the entirety of comics, the cream of the crop. Yes, from that lofty perspective, they are shit.Where is the Beatles of comics? It's not Kingdom Come
>>153328646I don't care about your percentage. I come across it enough to be sick of it. Imagine someone complaining about evil Superman expies and you say that only 5% of characters are them therefore not a problem.
>>153328557France don't shit themselves that manga are better and sell better like amerimutts do.
>>153327069No, not even remotely. The only good battle shounen is Fist of the North Star and what rapidly went to shit halfway through after Raoh.
>>153328709or better said... the fact that comics have basically no cultural relevance is evidence of their lack of artistic worth.
>>153328646>You could have made better generalizations and baits than thatWhy? He still got you to reply. Maybe be better yourself and just ignore blatant shitposts.
>>153328729Evil Superman expies are not the problem. If you're telling me that's the reason the industry is so shit then LOL.
>>153328660Yet the most popular titles are from Jump https://www.superpouvoir.com/bd-mangas-et-comics-quels-sont-les-plus-gros-succes-de-lannee-2025/
>>153328739So that's one more than capeslop.
>>153328729The equivalent of that would be someone complaining about most western comics beings capeslop which is(probably) true or are there only 5% of them? Anyways you could have done better, I doubt many will bite it. The op was more concise and easy to digest.
>>153328732>France don't shit themselves that manga are better and sell better like amerimutts do.Probably because Asterix outsells them all
>>153328806So does Dogman. Big win.
>>153328772I'm bringing up an example of someone complaining about there being too much of something. I wouldn't say there's too many evil Supermen expies but listing comics that have them does raise an eyebrow. Even off the top of my head I'm getting a growing list. So if someone were to say "I hate evil Supermen" then I'm not going to dismiss their claim and throw out a statistic to prove it. That's what I'm saying.
What percentage of comics are capeshit? Both now and historically? Both sales and production numbers?Looking at this graph we can immediately see that undeniably, 75% of comics are capeshit.But even within publishers like Image, Boom, Dynamite, and Dark Horse, all produce a great deal of capeshit.This is also a modern statistic. Capeshit in comics has never been so unpopular so it's likely the share was even higher in the past, especially in terms of sales, I wouldn't be surprised if historically capeshit represented 99% of comics.
>>153328833So... just inane babbling?
>>153328854This is relevant to ask, because all too often the wouldbe comic defender is very quick to throw capeshit under the bus with their>"but not all comics is capeshit!"Their efforts to defend comics actually undermine basically the entirety of comics.It's like saying >"your house is filled with clutter!">"nuh uh! my broom closet is clear"
>>153328794I'd say a far bigger number of comics these days are superhero comics, even indie comics have a lot of them. Evil Supermen is a better example because while it feels like there's a lot, the number of comics that actually have them wouldn't be that big.
>>153328833> listing comics that have them does raise an eyebrow. Even off the top of my head I'm getting a growing list. in the endless mass of capeshit there aren’t that many. it would not raise an eyebrow if they knew how many superfags with different names there actually are. there are other more common archetypes
>>153328854Absolute Batman outsold Dandadan in NA, the Absolute line as a whole sold more than 7.8 million units in just 2 years.
>>153328902I've never heard of Dandadan
>>153328587Watchmen is the only great one named and it was a total anomaly. Moore is a rarity in the comics industry, and even then, a lot of things had to happen and not happen for Watchmem to come about.
>>153328928We need a Watchboys comic to save the comic industry!
>>153328928You are wrong All Star is better
>>153328944Yes.ASS is good, but not great. The rest are mediocre.>>153328949Fuck no.
>>153328928>>153328949I disagree with both of you but one thing's for certain, the other three he named are bad.
>>153328709You are just rambling at this point, those are considered excellent comics even in Europe
>>153328928I don't think Watchmen is really eligable for that sort of title because it's a comic reader's comic. It doesn't bring in new readers. It only makes sense to people already familiar with comics. In that sense it doesn't really benefit the industry in any way.It's a bit like Madoka Magica in anime. It's well written and profound yes... but it's an inside joke, it's for people who are already deeply into anime.
>>153328972>>153328975Incorrect, they are beloved by the majority of readers
>>153328978By who? greasy neckbeards in the run-down comic shop?Virtually nobody outside of comics has heard of half of your examples. They're just simply not interesting enough to have ever expanded out of the comic book shop.
>>153328998You're just wrong.
>>153329000No, not the majority.
I don't hate comics, I love comics. It's like my wife, I love her, and that's why I beat her. I want comics to be better. Right now they're shit and sitting here defending shit is just enabling them to continue to be shit.If I didn't care about comics, I would just simply ignore them.
>>153329027>It's like my wife, I love her, and that's why I beat her.
>>153329005>By who? Bloggers, Youtubers and professional reviewers>Virtually nobody outside of comics has heard of half of your examplesMaybe Kingdome Come and the same could be said about Urasawa or Larcenet works.
>>153328998Not really. There has been enough understanding of the superhero genre via cultural osmosis, especially now. It certainly makes it a better, deeper reading experience if you're familiar with the different comic book Ages, with Ditko's work, with old science fiction plot devices, etc., but it's not necessary for enjoyment by new readers.
>>153329022According to reviews on sites like good reads they are
>>153329076I think you're out of touch.Superheroes haven't really been a mainstream thing for generations now. People born after 2000 have never watched the Adam West Batman and likely don't know it even exists.The most Superhero stuff they know is the MCU which already discard most of the tropes that Watchmen seeks to breakdown.To a younger audience, the message of >"what if superheroes were dark"Just doesn't have any impact to it because they've grown up with The Boys.To them, superheroes were always dark.
>>153329097sorry, I meant>TRADITIONAL Superheroes haven't really been a-That is, the classic goody two shoes fights for justice superhero. That's just not a thing anyone has ever seen today.
>>153329089There aren't that many reviews.
>>153329097I think you're out of touch. It was the best selling collection (not counting manga of course) a few years back almost 40 years after it was published and it's the only one to make best novel lists (not best graphic novel lists). You really want to sell it as some obscure "only for experts thing" but it's not.
>>153329184Bro every book makes the best novel list.Every book is an amazon best seller. The book industry is a total joke with these kinds of things.
>>153329169Why are you lying?
>>153329184There's also the fact that it sells pretty well every year.
>>153329027Are you me?
I've recently read ~the past 2 year of the amazing spiderman just because I see a lot of bitching and whatnot then came away with 2 questions. Who is this aimed at and who would actually spend money on this? If something like spiderman could make me feel that way then I can't imagine the current state of other comics
>>153325313Game over /co/cksucker/a/ won>>153328806Old boomer shit>>153328813>dogmanHahahaKek
>>153326604Law of averages at work means that because there is more manga published every week than an entire year's worth of American comics, that there will be a larger number of higher quality manga than there will ever be high quality comics. And all of the manga are selling better anyways.What's worth noting, however, is that even if we only look at things proportionally, the amount of truly good comics being released is still far less than the ratio of good to bad manga. And even the less than great manga are still largely okay, if you like the genre. Truly bad manga get axed in a few months. Truly bad comics keep going for years, even when they aren't selling and losing money for their publisher.
>>153331133I mostly agree with you here but you should know that in recent years, bad comics have been getting axed very quickly, often within 5 issues.However the artists and writers making those comics don't get sacked, and they continue to produce more comics that get axed within 5 chapters.But it is absolutely not like in the past where a comic with virtually no sales would just keep being produced. The fire is on for them now and they can no longer afford to produce shit, but they are incapable of producing anything that isn't shit.
Read both, faggots.
>>153331133>Truly bad comics keep going for years, even when they aren't selling and losing money for their publisher.True.>>153331272>bad comics have been getting axed very quickly, often within 5 issues.The New Ultimate books went for much longer than 5 issues.
>>153326753>>153328600>CSM>>153328177>JJKI improperly read both and predicted the returns of Power and Nobara respectively. I should have enough power level to facetank western comics. Amen.
>>153327281Sandman, Heckblaze, Mark's Daredevil, Lucifer, Half of Duggan's Deadpool (i dip out because fuck crossover)
Look at this garbage.Look at how exciting and appealing they make the covers, and the interiors look good too, for the most part. And these are drawn by the same interior artist, none of that bait and switch nonsense where it's a different artist, no variant cover bullshit. Look at how much passion they pour into it.How fucking terrible that would be for comics.
>>153333751You wanna know what the biggest thing about this is?When you read some capeshit, the world isn't new. Superman lives in basically the real world. Batman lives in the real world. Spider-man lives in the real world. Heck Batman and Superman's world are actually the same world. All of the DC characters exist in the same world, that is the completely mundane real world. Same for Marvel. And the difference between those two worlds exists only because they're separate companies, but they're basically just the real world with magical characters shoe-horned into it.But these manga titles here, they're all totally original universes, with their own magic systems, histories, etc. And it's always a fun part of engaging with a manga/anime title to discover how its universe works.Just exactly where do the quirks in My Hero Academia come from? How do they really work? Almost certainly there's lore about it.But where do Spider-mans powers come from? a spider? where did this spider come from? there's 20 different answers, it changes every run. Sometimes he doesn't have powers at all but is just a genius inventor.It's just not really interesting.But furthermore, even before the comic series has even begun, I already know all the lore. If it's written by DC, then I know that Superman exists in the world, and that the world in general exists in the totally real mundane 21st century with no modifications to society whatsoever.Even in the hit series Absolute Batman, I know that sooner or later, Superman is going to show up in it.When you do crossovers and multiverse shit, actually what you're doing is reducing all your stories to one story. In all of DC there is only one story, and in all of Marvel there is only one story. But in manga there are thousands of stories. Every manga written is a new story.
>>153333913cont, and the examples given in >>153333751are deliberately riffing on capeshit, so they likely copy many of the tropes of it such as existing in a modern day city.But look at pic related. Every one of these has its own original universe for which the reader can explore and learn about. And they can't be merged because they have conflicting ideas about how fundamental things workFor example, in Deathnote, the gods of the underworld live in a barren wasteland, observing humanity and killing people by writing down their names. That's how that universe works.But in Bleach, the underworld exists as a whole parallel society, and humans, if they hold despair in their hearts, are transformed into monsters, for which the members of the underworld are tasked to purify their souls. It's a totally unique take.And many of these series have unique concepts for the underworld, and they're all different.They have unique concepts for whatever magic/power system they use. In Fullmetal Alchemist there is the magic system of alchemy, but in One Piece, that alchemy doesn't exist. In Chainsaw Man, devils are created through peoples fears of a concept, but in Naruto, fears don't create monsters like that.You just don't get this in comics because it's all the same world. If they introduce someone with radically different abilities than someone else, the only way they can justify it is if it comes from some far off planet, but it's all the same reality.Why do you support this? It's boring. Why don't you want something more like what I've described in anime? Original ideas. Entire unique takes on reality itself. True creative world building.
Comics don’t have to be for you! It’s fine! Anime and manga aren’t for me, so I don’t ever deal with them, it’s easy!Complaining about cover art is something I find very funny though
>>153334027contSome more unique things that only work in manga/animeAshita no Joe is a story about boxing. There are no magical super powered people in Ashita no Joe. It's a story grounded in the real world.Characters like Batman are routinely forced to be written in ways more powerful than he really needs to be, simply because his world has been merged with Superman's. If Batman existed in his own world, where no magical powers existed, then Batman could be just a well trained buff guy and he'd be as strong as he needs to be without any bullshit.There's also tone. Urusei Yatsura is a comedy universe. There are routinely alien races visiting earth, but it's not like War of the Worlds. It's all just a joke, the whole universe is played to the tone of this silly comedy. You can't do that in comics, because they exist in the real world, tonally. If aliens show up from outer space... people have to react as they would in real life, they can never just take it in stride because the tone has been set.And then there's just total variations of reality itself.Beastars exists in a world of animals. Humans don't exist. They didn't exist in the past, they're not on some distant planet. It's a totally separate reality, where humans don't exist at all. Comics can't do that, because in comics, humans do exist, and it's just the real world.Do you see just how much this practice of multiverse crossovers completely stifles the creative potential of comics? Think of how much more there could be in comics if they stopped doing this and just wrote original stories instead.
>tranime OP samefagging and bumping his own threadNobody cares. Where Infernal #6?
I don't even have to bring up manga to make this pointThe scifi universe that Alien 1979 exists in, is one grounded in reality, but in this future, humans discover this ancient bioweapon of a monster, the xenomorph created by some long dead alien race.Contrast with Star Wars, in which a magical force called the Force permeates the universe and leads to the creation of Jedi, powerful monk like warriors who can levitate things and such.These two realities are totally separate. There is no Force in Alien, and there is no Xenomorph in Star Wars.But once you write one story, one reality. If you, through your compulsion for multiverse crossovers, you are now bound to the rules of that one reality. If you invent the Force, now absolutely every story you write must contain the Force, and that's an exclusionary world building decision, by doing so you likely can't introduce other similar concepts like chi or prayer or whatever. You lock yourself in.If you were to draw up a graph of all the various storywriting and worldbuilding concepts that go in to making a series, by utilising the same world, you immediately strike out 90% of the variables, things like history, power systems, the tone of your series, the type of world, time period, technological level, etc.And if a reader doesn't like this ONE universe you've created, then they won't like literally any comics.I personally don't care much for the power system in Gurren Lagann, but because that only exists in Gurren Lagann, I'm not locked out of anything else, I can go and watch Stein's Gate and be happy to know that no spiral themed mechas are going to appear in it.But I can't do that with Batman. If I hate Superman, I can't just read Batman, because Superman is in Batman. And the same goes for all DC or Marvel heroes.
I've decided that I don't actually enjoy stories about superheroes who exist as anomalies in an otherwise totally regular modern day world.I want to read something where anyone can become a superhero.I want to read something where nobody is a superhero.I want to read something where there are super powered characters... but it's not the regular mundane world, but a world whos entire history has been shaped by the existence of super powers and doesn't at all resemble the real world.I want to read something where nobody knows super powers exist, they're all kept hidden.etc etc, I could listen 100 variations just on the concept of super powers. And none of them can ever exist in comics, despite comics being entirely about superheroes. They have absolutely no creative potential whatsoever because they're just forced to write the same thing over and over again. They're totally locked in.People wonder how My Hero Academia so easily trumped basically all comics, and despite being entirely inspired by western capeshit, it became so much more interesting than all of it. And the reason is because it's original. It doesn't exist in the same reality as Marvel and DC, so it wasn't bound by the stale old worldbuilding of those worlds. It was able to be something new and unique.
Tranime is SHIT. OP is SHIT.
>>153334428Worm
>>153334428>I've decided that I don't actually enjoy stories about superheroes who exist as anomalies in an otherwise totally regular modern day world.Why not? There's plenty to explore with this concept.
>>153334439>shitting on yourselfGoddamned schizo.
>>153334428>People wonder how My Hero Academia so easily trumped basically all comics, and despite being entirely inspired by western capeshit, it became so much more interesting than all of it.Most people I've heard from think it's shit. They just like all the hot girls.
>>153334530It's not for everyone, but that's exactly what I'm saying.If you don't like it, it has absolutely no effect on your chances of liking/disliking another series.But with comics, if you don't like one comic for its take on reality, you basically won't like any comic at all.
>>153333751Man Zetman has such good line work.
>>153334155>>153334439It's very weird how you keep seething about CHADnime. If this thread makes you angry just leave it. >>153334139The manga genres that I really enjoy but don't have equivalents in the western comics scenes are sports manga and gambling manga
>>153334637Those are good examples.In a sports manga, the writing tone and focus of them is such where it's almost as if the whole universe revolves around sports.You see the story from the perspective of characters are who into the sport, all the plot points are todo with sports. It's like nothing exists outside of it.Superman doesn't suddenly barge in and start arresting criminals and shooting lasers out of his eyes.The main character isn't constantly reminded that his expertise in being a sports star is worthless compared to the magical flying alien vigilantee.From a writing point of view, the main character in a sports story is the superhero of that story. All the tonal scaling and whatnot is calibrated for that.In the Godfather and other similiar mafia based movies, those mafia guys are pretty fearsome people, you don't want to get on the wrong side of them, they've got ways of getting to you even through the law.But they're just mafia goons. In a typical capeshit comic, the superhero would be taking out these chumps while on the phone to their ex girlfriend and not even paying attention.Capeshit frequently features the superheroes stopping bankrobbers as just background noise to an otherwise larger plot point, as just their daily routine. But in a movie about a bank robbery, that's the heist fo the century.Why comics choose to stifle themselves so much is baffling.It's beyond just genre tropes, it's not even a genre, it's one story with a hundred characters.
>>153325313So don’t read them. Problem solved. Read adult books
>>153334756I don't want to go get oranges, I want the apples I already have to magically become oranges.
>>153334756How do you know that there are no plotholes shared like onaholes in adult books too?
>>153333913That's why I like self-contained stuff. This shit bothers me too. What sucks is the MAIN stuff, the comics that most people read, is shared universe dogshit.
>>153334428>People wonder how My Hero Academia so easily trumped basically all comics,Manga has an exotic appeal that makes it so that even mediocrity like MHA become popular, if the same story with the same art was published in the US nobody would have read it. You know it, I know it everybody knows it
>>153335991It would have exploded in the US.
>>153330994>Old boomer shitCope plenty of french comics outsells One Piece in France
>>153336024It's so mediocre that I seriously doubt that, it feels like a bad copy of Legion of Superheroes and X men smashed together
To anyone who hates that this thread is here: MAKE MORE COMIC THREADS (and bump comic threads that are falling off the board). Part of the reason these do well is that there aren't very many comic discussion threads, so comic readers leave.
>>153336054Nta but I think it would have been pretty popular based on the characters designs alone. There are worse superhero comics that got popular
>>153325313you have to stop reading superhero books made after 2001
>>153336054It sucks but it's much, much better than both of those. Those are two IPs that do not hold up at all. MHA takes the X-Men concept and removes the retarded, haphazard bullshit, supplants it with a more plausible and interesting backstory.
>>153336080You'd be missing out on some kino if you do.
>>153334027>And many of these series have unique concepts for the underworld, and they're all different.Half of those series are a shameless copy of the other half.Just admit that weebs are willing to consume a ton of garbage just because it comes from Japan
>>153336140>Half of those seriesI can only count 5 that even qualify as ripoffs.
>>153334060>Comics don’t have to be for you! It’s fine!The universe revolves around me though
>>153328583I'm sure you're referring to one or two specific manga, but I don't know which ones.
