Is it at all realistic for someone who killed thousands, or even millions of people to be redeemed and get a second chance? Or are some mistakes just too big to atone for?
>>153346896sounds like a fanfic summary
>>153346896no but thankfully it's a cartoon
>>153346896Politicans kill thousands to millions of people and always get off scott free.
>>153346896Redemption =/= Forgiveness.Anyone can be a better person, but part of that is accepting that some things are unforgivable and you can do things so heinous no one will trust or like or want to be around you.
>>153346915I'm serious. Nolan killed a lot of innocent people, and got a lot of innocent people killed on thraxa, he probably killed even more during his time as a soldier for Viltrum. How do you even come back from that?
Oh great, White Diamond Discourse all over again.
You aren't going to prison because there's no prison that could hold you, but you still aren't invited to my birthday party.
>>153346974The power of love conquers all.
>>153346896It is realistic, but Kirkman handled avoiding needing to address that sensibly.Nolan is never redeemed or given a second chance, he just lives with those willing to accept him while the rest of the universe assumes he's dead.You can call that getting off easy, but it's not like killing him would undo what happened or make the odds of dealing with his past associates easier. There's a point where personal hang ups around morality becomes counterproductive.I'd bring up cases from our world but it wouldn't matter, you either care enough to know history or don't.
>>153346974He potentially has thousands of years to make up for it. Shit, he saved billions with the whole giant meteor thing during his stint as Omniman
>>153346981I don't watch Steven Universe.
>>153346896>>153346974You don't do good to be forgiven, you do good because you want to do goodIf you're not forgiven that doesn't excuse you to stop doing goodNolan is an unholy demon to Earth but he's a saint to Thraxa (well, until that whole generation died in a few months tops and a new one replaced them but you get the idea)
>>153346974Saving the universe is pretty up there
>>153347003I don't think Nolan and Debbie are going to end up together again in the show like they did in the comics. It'd be weird for her to just start boning her (formerly) genocidal maniac husband again like she did in the comics.
>>153347107I mean yeah they definitely are, but they're taking it slower to at least make it more digestable.
>>153347045>He potentially has thousands of years to make up for itAbout that He dies towards the end of the comic, leaving Mark to pick up the pieces. He doesn't get a thousand years to make up for it.
Cecil trying to be big and bad with Nolan is the dumbest shit.
Honestly I'm genuinely surprised they made Nolan's redemption quest palpable to normalfags after dialing up his atrocities to 11 There were people convinced Mark vs Nolan would be endgame
>>153347144I mean it's understandable Cecil would be fucking terrified of him given their interactions.
>>153346896He killed like 2 thousand, he is too pussy in his redemption arc though he should stand up for himself more. This dude has saved the earth from a texas sized asteroid, earth would have been dead without him not to mention the millions of lives saved by his other actions before even the start of S1
>>153347144Not really, he confronted him in Season 1 too just as fearlessly and Nolan tried to kill him like 5 times in that conversation.
>>153346896Just use the money from killing millions to make movies about your feelings, no one can hold you accountable
>>153347132I know I was speaking hypothetically. Point being he is from a race that lives a long ass time and could potentially do a lot of good
>>153346961Most politicians don't genuinely feel bad about the evil things they've done. Nolan does.
>>153346896Worked for Vegeta. Kirkman got away with pulling a Diesel here
politicians killed more children on d-day than nolan did.
>>153347183>This dude has saved the earth from a texas sized asteroid,Morality isn't like a scale. You can save a billion people from death, doesn't bring the people you did kill back to life. Make things any easier for the survivors (see Powerplex)>earth would have been dead without him Yeah he saved the earth. Because he was hoping to enslave it.
>>153346896I think the way people behave around him in the show makes sense so far, he did horrible shit, but later he shows up to help, he's useful so people accept it, specially punishing him would be far more trouble than it's worth. This is also a question of rehabilitation vs. retribution. IRL we lock up people and sometimes electrocute them for multiple reasons, because they're proven dangers to society, because it discourages them and others from doing similarly terrible things. But if you knew for a fact a serial killer is a changed man, retribution would be wasted energy.>>153347144Seriously, he's supposed to be the voice of cold, hard logic.
>>153346981Or the discussions about Shinji Ikari in the rebuild movies after he commited a Nolan-level fuck up.
he could become the next Santa claus. then everybody would have to like him if they want a present.
>>153347284so far this is the only solid thought in this thread.
>>153346896in a century what he did will be only text on a history book
>>153346896>Or are some mistakes just too big to atone for?from a pragmatic point of view, viewing certain people as being beyond redemption prevents them from ever seeing redemption as a viable optiontruly evil people who would never willingly repent would never take redemption in the first place, so keeping redemption on the table doesnt affect our relationship with thembut for people who do regret their actions, then shunning their intention to change would leave the impression that evil is the only choice for themyou also encourage fanaticism among your allies, because the threat of making a mistake and becoming eternally a pariah hangs over their every actionso a once evil, forever tainted approach is worse for society overall because it encourages counter-productive behavior
>>153347248>Yeah he saved the earth. Because he was hoping to enslave it.The same thing that saved the earth from complete destruction is what caused him to kill 2 thousand people. His duty to viltrum. You wouldn't have one without the other. How is it ok to not feel thankful because nolans loyalty to viltum saved you, but you are allowed to get mad because of his loyalty to viltrum killed some people.
>>153346896https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0wZENNZ740&t=143s
These Viltrumite Debbies are getting complex.
>>153347411>so a once evil, forever tainted approach is worse for society overall because it encourages counter-productive behaviorEven Jesus said some people are so evil they should be tied to rocks and thrown into the ocean.
>>153347721
I can't wait to get an asian wife who will forgive me after beating our child half to death. As much as people want to pretend otherwise Cuckmen is one of us when it comes to knowing what women are really about.
>>153347721Jesus could see into the hearts of people, he knew who was willfully evil and who was misguided, he also knew others were not so good judges of character and warned many of them against assuming otherwise because of bloodlust and personal gain.
>>153346896Forgiveness and redemption are two different things. Can people in general forgive someone who made a mega 9/11? probably no, can be redeem himself fighting to help people? yes.
>>153346896>Is it at all realistic for someone who killed thousands, or even millions of people to be redeemed and get a second chance? It should happen more often
>>153347721Jesus said you should forgive people an infinite number of times if they ask for itAnd as mentioned, people who are so evil as to be beyond redemption wouldnt take redemption as an optionBut we arent talking about jesus, we are talking purely about what benefits us as a society If we want to encourage people to support our side instead of the enemy side, it makes sense to cultivate the image of generosity If the enemy thinks that siding with us is an option, then they will take it, and that saves us the trouble of fighting the later If the enemy thinks that switching sides is pointless, then the most rational act on their side is fight us as hard as possibleFrom a purely rational perspective, its in our benefit to be gracious and forgiving
>>153346896Depends on if they can be meaningfully useful to society if forgiven, like Nolan would
>>153346981It's funny since SU is much more PG but she's much worse. Her deeds were outright ignored, unlike Nolan's, and yet her kill count is probably a thousand times bigger.
>>153346896No, it's childish neo-marxist nonsense to think bad people can or will just say sowwy if you "teach them right"
>>153346896Peter Quill killed 350,000 innocent people because he believed it was the only way to save millions of lives. Everyone got over it.Nolan Grayson killed 2,300 innocent people because he believed it was the only way to save billions of lives. People will hold it against him until the day he dies.
>>153347419'Cause motive matters. Even something like saving a planet is tainted when the motive is duty to a fascist space empire. Also, Omniman's case is especially bad because he kept the motive a secret while pretending to be acting out of genuine altruism. On a basic, instinctual level, people fucking hate betrayals like that, and the knee-jerk reaction is to want them dead so they can't pull the same trick twice. Lies and betrayals burn credibility in a way that makes it harder for readers, let alone anyone in-universe, to forgive them. Meanwhile a character like Vegeta having a redemption arc is easier for audiences to accept, because despite the fact that Vegeta killed TONS of people, he never claimed to be a good guy - he was openly, proudly evil. So when he starts doing good and regretting things, that comes across as legit.
>>153346896Obviously irredeemable and should kill himself and his people
...Marvel movies and steven universe are joke universes made for little babies. Invincible tries to take itself seriously and gets SUPER preachy and is meant for adults/older teens.I don't see how this is confusing for you people. It's funny though because I bet an abortion arc in SU would go hard and actually work very well, unlike here. Sugar is just an amazing writer, especially compared to Cuckman.
>>153351118Thaedus go back to hell
>>153346896In the comic? No. But the cartoon is going out of its way to make his redemption seem realistic and earned by having everyone rightfully give him shit.
>>153351195Yeah, the comic was a little too quick to forgive him. Nolan returns and Debbie just immediately takes him back and Cecil is yucking it up with him on his flashy new moonbase.
>>153351122>Sugar is just an amazing writerShe's just as bad if not even worse you disingenous retard.
>>153346896back before this show went to shit, I thought about itmy conclusion is that he should send a message to earth, saying he promises to stay offworld (unless specifically invited) and fight off any incoming alien threats for 100 years, then, he hopes they will forgive him, but if not, at least he can forgive himself and will bugger off somewhere else instead. He's in a unique position to atone.instead he just kinda shows up and takes his sons out for fighting and has a really wimpy talk with his ex and was a grandfather for a couple months because why the fuck should we get to have anything nice.
>>153347721i don't recall thatclosest he said was that it would be better FOR THEM if they'd never been born.>>153347411this. the best thing you can do with a monster is gaslight him into good behavior.
>>153351957>closest he said was that it would be better FOR THEM if they'd never been born.more pertinently, jesus quite explicitly says the gates of heaven are open to everyone, no exceptionhe makes a point to say that the criminal nailed to the cross next to him will be forgiven and go to heaventhe entire story about the prodigal son is that even if you go out and squander what was given, you are still welcome to return, because we shouldnt be happy that someone was able to see the error of their ways and return to ask for forgivenessthe only thing that would really keep you from forgiveness is your own pride preventing you from earnestly asking for it
>>153352031Someone who actually read AND understood biblical text, color me shocked! well said.
>there are people itt stupid enough to forgive nolan
>>153352031>>153352521I am very pleased with /co/ tonight. This brought us all closer together, I think>>153352547Keep in mind that you can forgive someone and still believe he deserves the death penalty. Lots of people who got stoned were stoned peacefully, after apologizing, and their concern was not "oh let me go" it's "oh shit I caused others to suffer, please carry out justice"But in this unique case, he has so much more he can do to atone, and he WAS a victim of brainwashing since childhood. That aint an immediate justifier, but it is an extenuating ENOUGH circumstance to, say, allow a killer into the military to kill for his country, and very likely die and thus have atoned.
>>153352547if he was crying crocodile tears, surebut he has chosen to abandon the viltrumite way and is willing to put himself in harms way to stop the other viltrumitesthat should be a good indicator of honest attempt to reform his attempt to save the world from his own people is as good a penance as you can imaginewhat is your alternative? tell him to suck dick and hope he doesnt harbor enough resentment to turn around and join thragg?
>>153347721Imagine getting duped by abrahamic religion
>>153346896You’re absolutely right. We should demonize him, spit in his face and tell him that bo matter what he does he will always be a mass murdering piece of shit. Tell him to get off our planet, he’s not welcome here. That will show him. In fact he should start killing humanity again, since he’s so good at it.Obviously this is how you deal with Nolan.
>>153352677also, just killing nolan for his crimes would be the easy way for both the earth and nolansince the earth doesnt need to come to terms with living with a former supervillain and nolan avoids the hard work of actually undergoing penance for his actionsforgiveness in this case is the hard road, earth has to learn to live with someone who was willing to kill millions and nolan has to actually work and reflect on having been an intergalactic conqueror the japanese say it the most succinctly, the only thing harder than asking for forgiveness is giving it
>>153346896My only problem with Nolan's redemption in the comics is that Mark and Debbie forgive him too fast. He's still a necessary ally and has saved everyone plenty of times but in the comics he can never really be accepted by the populace and has to stay on a moon base. But the fact he gets a super advanced base with a teleporter to Earth that his wife can use whenever they're not constantly banging is also bullshit.
>>153352726
Cecil forgave people who caused more death and destruction and didn't have Nolan's track record of saving the world countless times. How the fuck did Cecil get his job anyways. Seems like he got promoted 1 too many times and is poorly suited for what he does.
>>153352677>>153352705somehow "is more convenient" doesn't sound like a honest reason to forgive someone. So what if he is sorry, boo fucking hoo faggot, as if he didn't knew damn well what he was doing. Nolan simply choosing to fight to protect Mark despite knowing he hates him would've been enough, no "please join the resistence" no "please wife im sorry" but people can't write for shit nowadays.
>>153347284That reminds me of a Sonic X comic where Eggman pretended to be Santa and told the world that unless they handed over Sonic to him, nobody would get presents. Sonic spent the entire issue running around the world dodging people trying to capture him. Not kids. Grown ups.
>>153352776imagine hitting your wife.
>>153352787pretty kino if you ask me.
>>153352781>somehow "is more convenient" doesn't sound like a honest reason to forgive someoneif someone recognized they made a mistake and are willing to go back and ask for forgiveness from those they harmed and have shown they are willing to work for atonement, thats an honest enough reason to consider forgiving them>So what if he is sorry, boo fucking hoo faggot, as if he didn't knew damn well what he was doingregret is powerfuland he went back to act on that regret, choosing to fight the viltrumites despite once being so loyalhow is that not indicative of sincerity?
>>153346896Redeemedlan should be forgiven and Debbie is irrational
Nolan was willing to go back on a lifetime of his deeply held beliefs. Admit he had been wrong for a thousand years and then fight to the death for it. That's good enough for me.
>>153352777Anon, with the crazy guys he is working with he barely tollerate them.Some just happened to become well adjusted people like Sinclaire , but he specifically cares more about what they can bring into his team than who they are .Same reason with Nolan now, he is acting all superior to keep him on check and make sure he behave well, especially with 30 random viltruniggers potentially ready to destroy the planet.He doesn’t have to be his friend, he want him to kneel and metaphorically suck his glowy dick like a good trained military dog to send to die against viltruniggers.Cecil is just pulling a huge powerplay to see how much he can manipulate the guy with his “guilty feelings”
>>153351559You're wrong and should feel bad but Steven would say you're an okay person and try to be your friend.
>>153352863Cecil has a terrible track record and is an awful liaison to supers. Anything that has worked out over the years has been in spite of him.
>>153352787You'll understand when you have kids.
>>153346896If he was dropping bombs in a war or something I'd say so. Because that's part of your mission. Still fucked up but a bit more understandable. If it had just been Omni Man killing people through collateral damage like the comics it would be a lot more forgivable but the show kind of made him beyond any true redemption when he went out of his way to kill people who weren't involved in the fight at all just to teach mark a lesson. It's not like he was under orders to do that and it didn't help his cause or people by doing so.
>>153346896>Is it at all realistic for someone who killed thousands, or even millions of people to be redeemed and get a second chance?No. Which is precisely why atoning Megatron was a stupid fucking idea to begin with.
>>153348618Vegeta is a lot easier to redeem when all of his murders can just be wished away. Also both he and Nolan only ever really try to redeem themselves in the eyes of the heroes and not the people they butchered. I don't really buy either. A better redemption is something like ASOIAF Jaime Lannister going around interacting with all the peasants who the war had ruined
>>153346896The anti-christs behind Invincible are not able to answer that question.
>>153347270This, the reason we kill people is uncertainty that they have changed (or certainty that they didn't).If someone has truly changed punishing them at least with death is a waste of effort if they could potentially help others.Stuff like this is why Crime & Punishment was written, or Back When You Called Us Devils if you wanna read a manga. Or even just the Bible how many Christians did Paul help kill
>>153352878What i meant is that Cecil is not Out of Character for acting this way on Nolan, since he never trusted him for years even before the reveal.He is taking the pragmatic approach to weaponize and guiltiness Nolan might genuine feeling for him to act as his watchdog.However what i do agree with you is that the writers kinda failed Cecil in some regards.Making contingencies for mark or any other viltruniggers , even dirty his hands with “redeeming” literal human scum? Okay, it is for the sake to have something to use in case, and you also get some good things out of it (Sinclaire stopping being a psycho)Acting behind Mark’s back ? A dickmove , but also you can understand his pov in not completely trusting a frail teenager that potentially might turn into a walking atomic bomb if the situation is dire, even worse if now he has killed an innocent person to save other people, and so is getting morally screwed.There is a logic behind all of it.NOT PUTTING THE NOISE WEAPON INTO CONQUEST AND NOT MAKING CONQUEST’S ESCAPE AN ACTUAL ONSCREEN PART IN THE SHOW was just really really stupid, for something that could’ve been fixed by having even less than half episode focussed on it.AND INSTEAD WE GOT HELLSLOP!That’s something that kinda made me angry at the writers, they could’ve fixed the whole Conquest fiasco…and decided to not do that… for the sake of other fillers..
>>153352942To be fair while you should better the lives of the people you previously worsened direct confrontation won't necessarily produce any results. Nolan or Vegeta killing themselves doesn't really help anyone practically even if it might make some victims feel better, others were never going to forgive anyway. Hell peasant families that are all wiped out can't be asked to forgive Jaime they all died. Effort is better spent ending the terrible circumstances you caused
>>153352781Well that's just it, he didn't know what he was doing. He believed it was right. Nolan is essentially a soldier in a fucked up war. It'd be like if you just woke up one day and realized insects are fully intelligent, and had to deal with the horror of having killed them all the damn time. and everyone's like "didn't you smell the chemical signals, you moron? Of COURSE they were people. Do mindless animals do waggle dances?" but you just didn't know.Only once he fucked one and had a kid did he realize. Not sayin easy forgiveness, but put it into perspective.>>153352789kek.
>>153352911ehhh part of his cause is making new soldiers, and if the FIRST half-human one can't be taught to think of these people as nothing but breeding cattle, then the cause is fucked. I say he is absolutely like he's dropping bombs in a war, and the random killing was like making sure some fuckup doesn't sabotage your war effort by leaking secrets or whatever. Like killing spies, kinda. From his perspective only, of course.
>>153352991>PaulOoooooh that's a good one. You kinda stop thinking about that since we're introduced to him shortly before he stops doing it, but.. yeah.I mean he was eventually beheaded for the same faith he once killed people for, and not by others who were still like his old self, but rather by their mutual enemy that they should have been fighting all along. So you could still say he didn't exactly get off scott-free.
